Pristine mechanics caused Prior pain

"In Prior’s last nine games, including three in the playoffs, he logged the following pitch counts: 131, 129, 109, 124, 131, 133, 132, 115, 119. . . Eight pitchers this decade have thrown 109 or more pitches in nine straight games, and half of them needed reconstructive arm surgery."

8 months ago DrGalazkiewicz 12 comments 1 recs |

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Prior

We discussed this briefly in today’s game thread, but it probably bares a full discussion…

I brought up a feature in the Daily Herald several years back where former pitcher Mike Marshall debunked the myth that Prior had perfect mechanics. The feature, IIRC, almost had a frame-by-frame commentary where Marshall picked apart Prior’s mechanics. Now it should be said that Marshall is not well respected in baseball circles, but that may not be saying much. I did a quick search for articles and could not find it, however I did find an online interview with Marshall which discusses Prior. It also is an indictment on Tom House, Prior’s long time pitching coach.

I believe that a big part of the Prior issues is the fact that House always touted Prior’s mechanics as perfect. Who was to tinker with perfect mechanics? We know how risk averse front offices are when it comes to their high money players and top draft commodities. I really wonder if anyone, be it a minor league instructor or even Larry Rothschild would have gone against the conventional wisdom and attempted to tweak the mechanics of the next Tom Seaver. House touted Prior’s mechanics and therefor it was so. Its very possible that House cost Prior his career.

I believe that the Mark Prior story will one day make fascinating reading if someone can get all the sides to be truthful about not only all the events of Prior’s career, but of the behind the scenes happenings and what really was wrong. If everyone from Prior and House to Baker and Rothschild would be honest about what happened, it would be interesting to read how the greatest college pitcher ever was destroyed.

by dmlichte on Mar 12, 2009 11:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Waa-waa-waaaaaaaa.

Stop bein’ a little bitch, Prior. YOU HAVEN’T PLAYED IN THE MAJORS IN 3 YEARS. Seriously, next thing I know you’re gonna be like the guy on Eastbound and Down, screaming at little kids how awesome you used to be, begging the local car dealership to have an event hosted by you.

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Mar 12, 2009 11:57 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Great arm...terrible throwing motion?

I just read that Prior piece in Yahoo and I’m wondering what were they trying to conceive here? A wonderkid? A mutant?What was Tom House trying to do, create the perfect pitcher? Too bad his arm blew out-twice. I feel sorry for him. I hope he can heal at 28. Anyone wanna buy his limited edition Rookie Card?

"It was a wise Man that invented Beer" (Plato)

by LarryCubFan on Mar 13, 2009 1:50 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

That was actually a pretty good read....

…on not only Prior, but pitching mechanics in general. Thanks.

Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team

by carmen_fanzone on Mar 13, 2009 9:01 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

and the pitch count explains what about

his injuries running, fielding, batting, and off season health trouble. I do not buy into it, and will use Nolan Ryan, and Fergie Jenkins as my first two pieces of evidence.

We (fans, broadcasters, reporters) all read too much into things like the pitch count, and we then follow that up by making a mountain out of a molehill.

In five years, someone will say that Hill was ruined by Lou because he was rushed into action and pitched to too many right handed hitters, causing a mental breakdown, and how it is sad that he was such a victim of bad managing.

How is it Rothchild’s and Dusty’s fault when Prior could not stay healthy during the off season when he was not pitching at all? Get over it, this needs to be swept under a rug, and we all need to move forward to 2009, not 2003.

Regarding the pitchers needing surgery, I may not be a doctor, but I would be willing to say a big part of why is due to two things

1. muscle mass is higher with less emphasis on being limber
2. pitchers are trying to throw 100 MPH every pitch, putting more torque on their shoulder and elbow

"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic

by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 13, 2009 9:53 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Consider the era

his injuries running, fielding, batting, and off season health trouble. I do not buy into it, and will use Nolan Ryan, and Fergie Jenkins as my first two pieces of evidence.

They were different pitchers in a different era and they were trained differently. They came up through the minors without pitch counts, probably going every fourth day and not every fifth day. You can complain about pitchers and harken back to a different era, but its comparing apples to oranges. Pitchers are not developed today the way they were 30-50 years ago so do not expect them to perform the same way.

by dmlichte on Mar 13, 2009 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

which actually supports what I am saying

they no longer are developed to pitch long term, and are babied to the point of breaking down, while pitching less innings, and throwing less total pitches.

I know that it is a different generation, but with modern medicine and advances in sports science, there is no reason why a pitchers ability to throw should lessen instead of remain the same or advance.

"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic

by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 13, 2009 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

But here's a question I have;

Could it be that the workhorses of the 70’s were the EXCEPTION to the rule?

Sure, guys like Ryan, Jenkins, Seaver and Carlton seemed pretty invulnerable to major injuries (although it’s interesting to note how many of them followed up heavy IP seasons with very subpar ones) but, just off the tope of my head, I can name several promising pitchers (Randy Jones, Buzz Capra, Jon Matlack, Mark Fidrych, etc.) who crashed and burned very early in their careers because of arm problems.

I have no idea if their problems came from unmonitored pitch counts , but it’s at least food for thought.

by bluekoolaide on Mar 13, 2009 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

agreed

"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic

by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 13, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

then you need to clarify what you're saying

You are using Ryan and Jenkins as evidence into the argument that Prior’s injury isn’t about pitch counts. Mark Prior and the pitchers of his generation are different machines than Ryan and Jenkins were so to say that Prior should be able to because Ryan and Jenkins were is a red herring. Mark Prior, Kerry Wood, even Carlos Zambrano and the other pitchers of this era were not developed the same way that Ryan and Jenkins were.

Could Prior have been developed differently? No, not unless the entire baseball establishment decided to go back to 4 starter rotations and scrapping pitch counts. The fact of the matter is that Prior was developed in this current era were pitch counts matter. With that in mind you have to use him in this manner. So it very well could have been pitch counts and to bring up pitchers from the ‘60s and 70’s is totally immaterial.

by dmlichte on Mar 13, 2009 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Keeping medical science out of the argument.....

since you can probably guess my qualifications for discussing such things, you have to look at the 2003 Cubs roster to realize why Prior threw so many pitches, and this is an argument that I, and many others on this site, have made many times.

The Cubs starting rotation in ‘03 was fantastic, but their bullpen was shaky at best, and a full-blown disaster at worst. Borowski came out of nowhere to have a good year as closer. But to get to Borowski, you had a past-his-prime Mike Remlinger, and an all-or-nothing Kyle Farnsworth. Those were really the only three guys in the bullpen you could count on to get outs, ever, and that was only some of the time. The rest of the guys in that bullpen were useless pieces of furniture like Juan Cruz, Mark Guthrie, Antonio Alfonseca, and the like. I know it’s easy to throw guys under the bus 6 years later, but that’s just the way it was.

Now I don’t care if guys are 22 or 40 or anywhere in between, when a team is in a pennant race, there is going to be an extra workload, in both the regular season, and into October. You can’t escape that fact. If Dusty started pulling Prior, or Wood, or Zambrano in the sixth inning of close games down the stretch, and the bullpen started coughing up games, I guarantee you that in 2009, we are still sitting here lamenting how Dusty cost us a postseason berth ‘03 by relying too much on a shaky bullpen. This is one time where it’s true that Dusty simply did not have the “horses” he needed, and he had to go with the starters more in order to win. If I’m going to sink or swim in September and October, I’m at least going to have my best pitchers out there, and in ’03 it was Wood, Prior, Zambrano, and Clement that took us to the postseason, and almost to the promised land.

Now maybe that overuse screwed up Wood and Prior, and maybe it didn’t. I’m no doctor, nor do I pretend to be. I do know that I blame Dusty for a lot during his time with the Cubs, but if I had been managing the 2003 Cubs, based on the bullpen I had, I’m going with Wood and Prior down the stretch as much as I can because if I don’t, we’re sitting at home in October.

"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Mar 13, 2009 1:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Excellent points

We tend to forget just how spotty the bullpen was in ’03.

I remember a friend calling me to rave out about Dusty keeping Prior in with the big lead in Game 2 of the NLCS-all I could think at the time was that I had very little faith in our bullpen no matter how big the lead was.

by bluekoolaide on Mar 13, 2009 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs