Know Your Enemy: St. Louis Cardinals
by Al on Mar 17, 2009 8:15 AM CDT
in News
202 comments
Every year, it seems the experts dismiss the Cardinals, for one reason or another -- not enough pitching, not enough depth, whatever. And every year, somehow, the Cardinals contend. They have had only one losing season since 1999.
Some here have made fun of him for various reasons, but the fact is, a lot of the credit has to go to Tony LaRussa. Only the great John McGraw and Connie Mack have more wins as a manager than TLR; he'll celebrate the 30th anniversary of his first managing job this summer, and that's more years than anyone but Mack and McGraw, too.
The Cardinals are counting on
Adam Wainwright to have a big year
photo via losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com
He must be doing something right, leading his teams to 12 postseason appearances, five pennants and two World Championships.
Before I get on to analyzing the team, a few words about the long and intense Cubs/Cardinals rivalry. Many here have made fun of them, and we get the same on Viva El Birdos, the SBN Cardinals site. But for me, I enjoy Cubs/Cardinals games. I've got nothing bad to say about the Cardinals fans I have met. They love their team and are passionate about the team and about baseball, and knowledgeable. All I want is for the Cubs to beat them every time we play them, but this isn't like the Yankees/Red Sox rivalry, where the fans really seem to actually hate each other. This rivalry is built on mutual respect, and over the last 25 years, both teams have had their times of dominance.
OK, enough of the lovefest. The Cardinals have their flaws again this spring, as they appeared to last spring, but they'll probably have enough to at least eke out a winning season, mostly on the strength of their power hitters, Albert Pujols, Troy Glaus, Rick Ankiel and Ryan Ludwick, who combined for 126 homers last year (comparison point: the Cubs' top four home run hitters hit 100 dingers in 2008). Glaus, of course, had shoulder surgery in January and there's no specific timetable for his return. These aren't your father's Cardinals, either: back in the era when the stolen base was king, the 1982 World Champion Cardinals hit only 67 homers, last in the majors, and had only two players in double figures (George Hendrick, 19, and Darrell Porter, 12).
While the Cardinals' outfield and catching slots are solid, the infield is only half so: Pujols and new SS acquisition Khalil Greene. The Cardinals are currently attempting to squeeze outfielder Skip Schumaker in at 2B. He's hitting well this spring, but fielding: not so much. Prospect Tyler Greene (now that would be a confusing DP combination) is also getting some time at 2B. For now, some combination of Brian Barden, Joe Mather, Brendan Ryan, and Tyler Greene will man 3B until Glaus comes back.
The key to the Cardinals' rotation is whether Chris Carpenter is healthy and ready to return. He has made three starts (eight innings) this spring without allowing a run, but the Cardinals are taking it slowly with him, too. Adam Wainwright will start on Opening Day; he threw well in 2008 after returning from an injury and they'll need him to be their ace all year. Last year, the Cardinals went far with the surprisingly good performances of Kyle Lohse and Todd Wellemeyer. They'll need more of that if they have hope to contend.
Right now, closer is an open position: it'll be either rookies Jason Motte or Chris Perez, or Ryan Franklin, or the dreaded "bullpen by committee", which I doubt LaRussa would use.
Besides Schumaker, other Cardinals having good springs are K. Greene (12 RBI, .447), Pujols (.361) and Ankiel (.348). But they will only go as far as their pitching does or doesn't carry them.
Predicted finish: third, between 81-85 wins.
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Huh
I didn’t realize the Red Birds were leaning on such a house of cards in so many key positions- we’ll see if Tony can do it w/ smoke and mirrors again. Why would the Cards cut ties w/ a versatile player like Miles when they have such glaring holes at second base? FWIW- I don’t see them getting the same mileage out of their starting staff this year. It’s hard to see where 80 wins will come from….
until you look at the rest of the division.
"Chicago Cubs fans are ninety percent scar tissue." - George F. Will
by Slakkr on Mar 17, 2009 8:44 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
As has been suggested...
… maybe they’d take Miles back. Are there still the rules that you can’t trade a newly signed free agent till sometime into the season?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 17, 2009 8:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
June 15th unless the player agrees
That said never discount La Russa, he is probably worth ten wins a year so if his team is a 72-73 win club he finds a way to make them .500 and if he has a .500 club they compete for the division crown or W/C.
If he had the Brewers he would be equal to the Cubs.
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
by Ivy Walls on Mar 17, 2009 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Miles might actually agree to go back to St. Louis...
… if they would give him the starting 2B job. (Which they might, under the current circumstances.)
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 17, 2009 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so what would the Cubs get in return?
We need at least one (and if Miles goes) two utility infielder’s and a LOOGY
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
by Ivy Walls on Mar 17, 2009 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pujols
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 17, 2009 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm....
I suppose I’d take Pujols, but I’d expect that they pitch in and cover most of his salary. I mean, the Cubs aren’t a charity organization here…
:)
by CubsWin!Oregon on Mar 17, 2009 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and we need a PTBNL as well IMO
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 17, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mark DeRosa
Wait, I guess we can take Wainwright off their hands
www.talkingchicagobaseball.blogspot.com
by nji232 on Mar 17, 2009 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
2B
I don’t think they cut ties with Miles. Mo offered him a 2 year deal just a few ticks under what Hendry offered. Miles took the extra .2 mil or whatever it was.
But really I’m guessing the whole 2B experiment with Schu is to clear room for Rasmus. TLR is insistent on using Skip at leadoff but having him in the outfield takes a spot away from a big rbi guy (either Duncan or Rasmus). If it works out at 2nd, really even if he’s passable then the Cards gain by having Ludwick, Ank and Dunc protecting Albert with Rasmus getting his feet wet.
I worry more about 3rd. Glaus was very good with the glove and bat last year and the shoulder surgery leaves a lot of doubt for the season. Mather crushed the ball at AAA so maybe there’s a chance he can fill the void.
I still don’t think the Cards will challenge the Cubs for the division but I think a run for the wild card is reasonable.**
**See Chris Carpenter’s health
by paposse on Mar 17, 2009 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One of the posters...
… at VEB suggested that the Cardinals sign Ray Durham. They could do worse, plus he’s a Cub killer.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 17, 2009 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would be one of those
“he’s not a very good player anymore but he’s better than anything we’ve got” moves.
He can still hit a little. His defense, which was never very good, has fallen off a cliff. He might still be better than Skip Schumaker though.
That would be a pretty shrewd move for the Cardinals if he’s still in shape.
by Josh77 on Mar 17, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe Mather at 3B
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/M/joe-mather.shtml
But that account he hasn’t played 3B since 2004 and not full-time since 2002. Does anyone know how he is doing defensively? Maybe he’s doing just fine but I imagine he might have some problems going from 3B at Rookie ball when he was 19 to going to playing 3B in the major leagues at 25.
http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp
He is having a so-so spring too, but yeah those Triple-A numbers were really nice in 2008.
by IllinoisCubs on Mar 17, 2009 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok so far
The few on mlb.tv he’s looked ok. TLR gushes about him in the Post-Dispatch. He’s tall but agile. Was drafted as a SS but like you said, left the infield early for the outfield. He played well defensively in the OF in his stint with the big club last year but I guess that doesn’t really mean anything in regard to 3rd. I think he’ll be alright. Even if he plays average defense the bat can make up for it.
by paposse on Mar 17, 2009 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
On the Cardinals website...
… he’s listed at the top of their 3B depth chart.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 17, 2009 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
pun intended of course...
….leaning on such a house of cards
Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand. - Homer J Simpson
by MikeOxbyg on Mar 17, 2009 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They need SO much to go right for them just to compete
I can’t see how it happens. Carpenter won’t stay healthy the entire season, and they won’t have a closer.
www.talkingchicagobaseball.blogspot.com
by nji232 on Mar 17, 2009 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Motte has been lights out
Perez is still developing but also a potential top flight closer.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not that Miles wouldn't be our best option at 2B right now
But Miles is only as “versatile” as Tony made him play woefully out of position.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Mar 17, 2009 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're stuck with Miles
The Cardinals don’t want him back.
*outside of LaRussa.
by Hardcore Legend on Mar 17, 2009 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, it was worth a try, anyway.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 17, 2009 6:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the Cards will finish in 4th place this year
www.wrigleyexpansion.com
by drodd on Mar 17, 2009 9:07 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Experts
I feel like the experts always give more credit to the Cardinals because they’re the Cardinals. I can’t recall a year where the team was dismissed en mass by the baseball writers and the fact that they’re the Cards or Tony LaRussa is their manager seems to benefit them with pre-season predictions.
by dmlichte on Mar 17, 2009 9:18 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah
last season we were picked as low as 5th or 6th place, give me a break. we get picked low quite often and yet always have a winning season, don’t get it.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're missing my point
Al said that the Cards are usually dismissed by experts. I have rarely, if ever seen the cards dismissed.
by dmlichte on Mar 17, 2009 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They were last year.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 17, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and 2004
they were picked to finish third or fourth
by adiueordie on Mar 17, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks
I was trying to think of which year that was….
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Might as well make it a trifecta...LAST YEAR.
Personally speaking, I was expecting Pujols’ elbow to blow out by the All-Star Break. So what does he do? Puts together an MVP season. The guy is amazing. And he makes the hitters around him better, too.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 17, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I can be a nerd...
My whole fantasy league thought the same thing about his elbow. He made it all the way to the second round somehow and was finally taken by an auto-draft…so he probably would’ve lasted on the board a lil longer too.
By mid-season, I wanted to punch myself in the face for my stupidity in passing on him.
by CubsWin!Oregon on Mar 17, 2009 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, the way the media was talking early in the season...
…his elbow was going to implode sometime in May. Never happened.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 17, 2009 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Non-story
As a Cards fan I could have told you that it was a non-story. Pujols elbow has been in the same state since 2003. I think that makes his numbers over that time even more impressive.
by indakind on Mar 17, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
why would an injury from 2003 be such a big issue? I picked Pujols in the first round last year.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah that might've been the most overrated
sports story last year. You’d have thought his arm was hanging by a thread but he looked like himself everytime I saw him.
The shortest distance between two points is under construction.
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Mar 17, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cubs-Cardinals Rivalry, Miss State-Ole Miss Rivalry
Those are the two rivalries with which I have had the most experience. I have been to tons of Cubs games in St. Louis and tons of Miss State games in basketball, baseball, and football in Oxford. I find I have been treated pretty nicely by the opposing teams’ fans.
We can’t lose sight of the fact that these are sporting events and not epic apocalyptic battles between good and evil that the Red Sox and Yankees seem to play. The world keeps turning no matter who wins those games. Their battles are not apocalyptic after all. I really enjoy seeing the Cubs win in St. Louis and the Bulldogs win in Oxford. I’ve got September 18 circled for Cubs-Cardinals in St. Louis and May 9 circled for State-Ole Miss in Oxford.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Mar 17, 2009 9:34 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Can't say the same about MSU / ole miss
I went to the Egg Bowl when Eli was there, and I got a fifth of whiskey poured on my head. And I wasn’t being obnoxious, just walking with my MSU gear on. I even left my cowbell at home. Lucky for me it was VERY cold that day, and I had a huge insulated, water-proof jacket with a hood on. I stayed completely dry, but my jacket REEKED. I’ve also been verbally assaulted and they’ve tried to kick me personally out of the Tad Pad twice in Oxford (once for “standing up” – RIDICULOUS). Can’t say that I don’t do/say some bad stuff them when they come to Starkville, though I mostly direct my angst towards the players and coaches, rather than opposing fans.
As for the Cardinals, I just know obnoxious Cardinals fans. People that I would normally not associate with and our personalities CLASH. I’m sure there are some good ones out there, but I haven’t met them.
I have MUCH respect for LaRussa, but I hate his guts.
by sparky39762 on Mar 17, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting.
I think that’s the first thing I’ve read about the Cardinals all season that didn’t mention Colby Rasmus. I’m not even close to an expert on the Cards’ depth chart or their farm system, so hopefully someone in the know can chime in, but will he see the bigs this year? I’ve heard nothing but good things about him, and his name has been around the top of the lists of the best prospects in baseball for a few years now I think.
For all you fantasy baseball players out there, Carpenter is EASILY worth a late round pick. You’re picking purely for potential to break out there anyway, and Carpenter has the track record of MLB dominance. If he’s even close to what he used to be, he’ll easily justify that 18th round selection. Just something to think about (I’m really anxious for my drafts already, can you tell?)
Ron Santo should sing TMOTTBG everyday. Period.
by Schwa on Mar 17, 2009 9:35 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I didn't mention Rasmus because...
… he’s not having a great spring, and it wouldn’t seem to make much sense to keep him in the major leagues if he’s not going to win a starting job this year.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 17, 2009 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I’ve seen Rasmus play plenty of games at AAA. He’s got a lot of potential and will eventually be a good major leaguer. I don’t think he’s ready yet. He struggled mightily during the first two months of last season hitting under .200 at AAA. He finished at .251 after getting hot in June and July. He got hurt in late July or early August missing the rest of the season and the Olympics.
From the Cardinals’ point of view, they need to show more patience with Rasmus. He’s got a lot of power and speed, draws walks, and has a gun for an arm. I saw him throw Felix PIe out at third last season trying to take an extra base on an error.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Mar 17, 2009 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
a proven success plan
The Cards always look for pitchers who “pitch to contact” and solid defense up the middle. It seems to carry them through every year. I think they have only finished last once (in 1990) since 1918!
"It's a funny old world. Man's lucky if he gets out of it alive." W.C. Fields
by KedzieKid on Mar 17, 2009 9:38 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
by the way, Al
I grew up in Chi-town and in those days did not mind the Cards like I did when I moved to So. Ill. You would probably have a different opinion of the average Card fan if you lived near them.
"It's a funny old world. Man's lucky if he gets out of it alive." W.C. Fields
by KedzieKid on Mar 17, 2009 9:41 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe so.
But during Cubs/Cardinals games… the rivalry always shines through, without getting nasty, at least in my experience.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 17, 2009 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately I worked in St. Louis for three years
Regardless, it is my opinion that St. Louis is the best baseball town on this planet. St. Louis is the most passionate place in the world when it comes to baseball. And Cardinal fans KNOW their baseball. They also are good respectable fans who I have never had trouble with being a Cub fan.
I hate the Cardinals, but damned do I respect them. 10 World Series Championships gets my attention. Tony LaRussa is also one of the game’s all-time greatest managers no matter what your personal opinion of the man might be.
by BLou on Mar 17, 2009 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cubs fans also KNOW their baseball.
I HATE this line of thinking. There are some very intelligent Cardinals fans, I know some. And there are some very bandwagon and dumb Cardinals fans, I know some of them as well. Now, replace the word Cardinals in each of the last two sentences with any other team in major league baseball, and each sentence still holds true.
Every team has great fans, and every team has awful fans.
by kanderber on Mar 17, 2009 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I lived in St. Louis for 10 years and I can truthfully speak to the passion of their fans. Sure, there are knowledgeable cardinal fans like there are in any ballpark in the league. I didn’t find them to be anymore baseball savvy than any other group of fans and I have been in several ballparks in the major leagues.
They do seem to buy a lot of cardinal gear and you see an awful lot of red at the games, but I certainly wouldn’t mistake passion for baseball knowledge. They are a pretty friendly group, but I would attribute that to a midwestern attitude more than anything else. The folks in Kansas city are just as friendly. A lot of their fans seem to have bought into the idea that they are the greatest baseball fans in the world and quite a few are pretty obnoxious about it. There seems to be an “Why would anyone ever want to play anywhere else?” attitude that can wear on you after a while.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 17, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So much wrong with that
Cardinal fans are no better than any other fanbase. They have idiots too. Lots of them like to disregard Cub fans because they root for a team that doesn’t win much. They are not the best fans in baseball, they have just as stupid and idiotic a fan base as the other 29 teams have.
www.talkingchicagobaseball.blogspot.com
by nji232 on Mar 17, 2009 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Overall yes they are
All have smart fans and all have idiots. At the end of the day they are all the same.
www.talkingchicagobaseball.blogspot.com
by nji232 on Mar 17, 2009 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I tend to agree with you
But at the same time I can’t fathom that Rays, Marlins, Rockies and Nationals fans compare well – in passion anyway – with the fans in Chicago, St. Louis, Philadelphia, etc.
Most of that, of course, is history/time. Fans of the Kansas City Royals, for example, have gone through much more with their team than fans of the Rockies (Rocktober!). But all in all, you’re right: every team has passionate and knowledgeable fans and every team has fans that wear pink hats and show up in October.
by Zonk on Mar 17, 2009 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would guess it's a matter of numbers.
I agree that all teams have passionate, knowledgable fans and all teams have idiotic, thuggish fans. The Rays/Marlins/Rockies/Nationals of the world simply have fewer of both because they have fewer overall.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 17, 2009 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
as a whole there will be equal percentage smart, loyal fans for each team, and the same amount of bandwagon or idiot fans as well.
www.talkingchicagobaseball.blogspot.com
by nji232 on Mar 17, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
With respect...
I think that’s a hard sell. There will always be some smart knowledgeable fans for a team, but there’s no logical reason why you would assume that there’s some inevitable parity between the fan bases of all teams. There are far too many variables to end up with identical fan bases everywhere (such as the presence of other sport franchises in the area).
I’ve lived in DC and the Northwest, and have spent quite a bit of time in San Francisco and New York. From my observations, there are more fair-weather fans for the Mariners as a total percentage of their fanbase than in any area I’ve seen (in part because the area of their fanbase is so spread out). And very few people really care about the Nationals based on what I saw.
That quite obviously contrasts with fan bases in New York or SF, for example, where there are high numbers of dedicated fans that follow the teams closely (aided by the population density of their areas of fan-dom).
by CubsWin!Oregon on Mar 17, 2009 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh I think most groups can be divided up pretty evenly
1/3 are true “dyed in the wool” believers. 1/3 are bandwagoners who woke up one day and decided thats what they should be and the other 1/3 are loud jerks who think they’re part of the first but really aren’t.
The problem is that loud 1/3d gets the most attention because they prove the theory that all “other” groups are jerks.
Course, YMMV.
The shortest distance between two points is under construction.
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Mar 17, 2009 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand that point
Were you around Mariner fans when their team was winning the AL West and 116 games? That might account for more bandwagon fans. The Nationals aren’t good, so they don’t get the bandwagoners. I would say that if somebody were to find the exact amount of fans each team had. They would each have X% of fans who will watch and be loyal no matter what the team is doing. I’ll bet that percentage is probably the same or darn close.
When the Cubs were bad, less people cared, but the same loyal people still were around everyday.
www.talkingchicagobaseball.blogspot.com
by nji232 on Mar 17, 2009 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nationals
I live in DC and it’s true, there aren’t many Nationals fans here. There are several reasons for this:
1. They’ve never been good (save perhaps their first year in DC)
2. The team appeared out of nowhere in the middle of the now-conflicted Orioles fanbase (yes, they have one)
3. DC is full of transplants from around the US (such as myself) who bring with them their team affiliations; thus, the opposing team’s fans generally outnumber Nationals fans (especially fans of teams like the Cubs, Cards and Phillies)
So in my opinion, building a fan base in DC will be an uphill climb beyond simply winning (although that would certainly go a long way). Fortunately for the Nationals, Peter Angelos is driving away any loyalty the locals had for the Orioles.
by Zonk on Mar 17, 2009 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rich history helps with passion
but you can have passionate fans without the centuries of history. Don’t confuse the two.
And just like with any group you get jerks and you get great ones. Just everyone notices a jerk not the great guy.
The shortest distance between two points is under construction.
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Mar 17, 2009 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
But it’s not the norm.
I have a hard time believing that, in general, the fans that packed Tropicana Field, Coors Field or Joe Robbie/Dolphin Stadium were just as excited/broken hearted as fans would have been in Philadelphia, Boston, New York or Cleveland when/should their teams (have) lost.
I don’t blame young fan bases – everyone’s got to start somewhere – but to say that all fan bases are equal when most Rays fans couldn’t even find their way to the ballpark until last August, is rather misleading. But as someone mentioned earlier winning solves that problem.
by Zonk on Mar 17, 2009 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just because all fan bases include every type of fan, it doesn’t mean there aren’t general differences about fan bases.
by ol Pete on Mar 17, 2009 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, so what are some of those general differences?
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 17, 2009 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, how about the White Sox and the Cubs? Do you think the fan bases are identical?
by ol Pete on Mar 17, 2009 8:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
cmon now
cards fans are usually nicer and more knowledgeable, but I may be a little bit biased
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ya think?
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 17, 2009 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, Tony LaRussa can be blamed for 3-hour, 9-inning baseball games
but I’ve got to grudgingly give the guy his due – he can really manage.
I don’t see the Cardinals contending the way they did last year – they seem to have holes all over their 25-man roster, but I think they’ll be part of a 3-team battle for second place in the division, with all those teams fighting to make it above .500.
I wonder if Brett Wallace will get a shot this season, especially if the Cardinals struggle early.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Mar 17, 2009 9:46 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Wallace the Walrus
I believe David Freese would get called up before Wallace would because Freese has AAA experience. Wallace hasn’t played above AA Springfield yet. I believe St. Louis would like the Walrus to get some experience at AAA Memphis before sending him to the big leagues. I’ve only seen him play one game in person with Springfield against the Arkansas Travelers in North Little Rock.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Mar 17, 2009 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wallace can flat-out hit
I just wonder if Glaus is out for a while and Mather doesn’t hack it, should Wallace tear up AA or AAA in April, if he’d get his shot.
If Glaus came back in May, then he could be flipped for help in the rotation/bullpen/second base, possibly, if the Walrus was playing the hot corner.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Mar 17, 2009 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Count me as one who thinks that LaRussa is over-rated.
That doesn’t make him a bad manager mind you. But given the talent that he’s had on various teams (particularly the A’s), he should have won more World Series, I think.
In other words, when judging a manager, you look at what a guy did with the talent he had available. Not merely what his final numbers were irrespective of what his team was made of.
by CubsWin!Oregon on Mar 17, 2009 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree.
Plus, he’s very two-sided on the steroid issue. That annoys me.
by TheHawkRules on Mar 17, 2009 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I tend to agree with that
but he’s still a good manager… just a weird manager
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cardinals have some issues, but they also have some major strengths
Cardinals need to sort out a starting rotation and a bullpen. But I learned a long time ago you NEVER discount the magical powers of Dave Duncan. He’s already nicely resurrected the career of Kyle Lohse and turned journeyman Todd Wellemeyer into a serviceable and reliable starting pitcher.
The St. Louis lineup could be a juggernaut. My prediction is that Khalil Greene moving to the Cardinals proves one of the best acquisitions by anybody. He’s always been an excellent shortstop, and now my bet is that batting in that lineup and in that ballpark really unlocks his hitting potential. After all, this is a guy who drove in 97 two years ago.
2nd base is the “least important” position on the field. That’s the one position where you can get away with a patchwork approach, especially when you have an excellent defensive shortstop in place and the lineup is going to flat out rake regardless.
by BLou on Mar 17, 2009 9:57 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
duncan preaches the "pitch to contact" philosophy
he wants ground balls, not strikeouts.
that makes second base pretty important. luckily pujols has great range at first to help snatch up some of those grounders.
by adiueordie on Mar 17, 2009 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Derrek Lee does, too.
Which is why it’s strange that the Cubs have relied on power pitchers.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 17, 2009 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
to an extent
it’s because they can afford it
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Best Player on the Planet
Decent article in last week’s Sports Illustrated about Albert Pujols. What can I say, I have a man crush on the guy.
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
by dtpollitt on Mar 17, 2009 10:38 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Pujols is one who I hate
for the right reasons, he is clean, he is a class act, and kicks our ass. Ok soits not hate, but more of a hate seeing him bat againt the Cubs
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 17, 2009 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
who knows, maybe he'll be a cub in a few years.....
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now that A-rod has been exposed as a fraud
I have to put my faith in Pujols to become the all-time greatest. Pujols deserves it.
by dr stabbingworth on Mar 17, 2009 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
+120132103213213213215311321513213
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 17, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and +yup. meeee too.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
by Archie on Mar 17, 2009 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't you think thats a bit premature of him to say?
Almost every person who makes a big deal out of not doing steroids eventually gets caught. I’m not saying he’s on them, but he isn’t above suspicion.
www.talkingchicagobaseball.blogspot.com
by nji232 on Mar 17, 2009 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
best rivalry in baseball
I have probably more cubs fans as friends than cards fans, and while there are some very annoying cubs fans out there (and I’m sure viceversa), I do feel the respect between the two teams (although I don’t get the cardinals suck comments I hear in wrigleyville). like you said it’s waaaay better than the yanks red sox b.s. both teams still have a lot of history though and it’s a really interesting rivalry, especially since you see a lot of the other team’s fans at the home park!
Here’s how I see the 2009 season:
Carpenter is the most important factor; if he doesn’t produce much, the team will be just above .500 in all likelihood, and will have a much tougher time to contend. if Carpenter (and well, Wainwright too, since he missed a fair amount of time last season) are healthy and effective, the Cardinals are one of the best teams in the NL with little question. even if the Skip Schumaker 2B experiment fails, it doesn’t hurt the offense all that much, as long as new shortstop Khalil Greene continues to rake like he has done since leaving evil Petco Park. the bullpen looks to be an improvement over last year, which hemmorhaged at least 10 games last season. if the Cards win 10 more, that’s quite a feat, 96 wins. so like I said, I see the offense to be even better this year, and the bullpen to be improved. the biggest question in my mind is the starting rotation, which overachieved somewhat last season, but was let down by injuries (well, that wasn’t just limited to pitching).
the Cubs I think are just about the same this year, although I think they will miss Derosa more than they bargained for. but then again, I think the Cubs have the potential to be even better this year at offense… D. Lee, Fuku, and AR didn’t exactly tear the cover off the ball last year, and I think all 3 of them can do a bit better, especially the new guy. and then if Soriano is healthy all season, ugh for us. The biggest question will be if Milton Bradley can stay healthy (I’m guessing no) and if the much vaunted starting rotation can stay healthy (Big Z, Harden are big injury concerns to me). I think that Lily and Dempster will both regress this season.
I expect the Cards and Cubs to be the only contenders in the division and the wild card to come from the east or west this year, the brewcrew lost their window of opportunity.
hopefully it will result in a one game playoff at the end of the season!!!!!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 10:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think that you are looking at this through red rose colored glasses
Why are Z and Harden bigger injury concerns than Carpenter and Wainwright? I think there is probably a push there. Once you move past those two on the SP depth, the Cards really don’t have much of anything. The Cubs still have Lilly, Dempster. The two offenses I think are pretty equal, but I would take the Cubs bullpen hands down over the Cards any day.
We aren’t comparing the Cubs and Cards here, though. I think that anyone would agree that the Cubs have to be the clear favorite as they are one of the only teams that could weather significant injury to a key player or two and still maintain above average talent. The comparision has to be the Cards and the rest of the NL or NL central. I like the Brew Crew lineup better than that of the Cards. Both lineups will rake…and both will have to with those pitching staffs. The bullpens are both bad (slight edge to the Brewers in my judgment, but it could really go either way.) The rotation match-up will hinge on Carpenter’s health and ability to bounce back from injury. If the Cards can get 30 starts from him, I think that their rotation should be better than that f the Brew crew. (by the way, can we trade for Dave Duncan?) The managing edge goes to the Cardinals, but by nowhere near the gap that it did last year.
Barring major injury, I look for both teams to be battling for 2nd place around the 82 victory mark. I will be surprised if either team is a serious contender for the wild card in the last week and a half of the season.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
by Archie on Mar 17, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think they are BIGGER injury concerns
I was just trying to show that they are not an airtight, rock solid rotation.
the cards bullpen will be greatly improved from last year I think. not sure what makes the cubs bullpen so great?
cubs had the best offense last season… they were very consistent in the regular season. but losing derosa is a large blow imo unless fukudome can step it up. but yeah, I think the cubs are definitely still the team to beat, I just don’t think the Cardinals are as bad as people think….
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and oh yeah
Cards lineup will be better than the Brewers, I am quite certain of this.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Greene to Greene?
Good thing they number the positions.
"I owe [Dunston] a lot. Nobody would know how good I was at digging balls out of the dirt if it wasn't for him..." -Mark Grace
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Mar 17, 2009 10:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
not in the box score they don't
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
by Archie on Mar 17, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Surprise?
Which team has the best chance of being the “surprise team” of the division? Which one has the most potential to put together a surprise run to knock the Cubs off the top?
Cards/Astros/Brewers?
Concerning the Cards… I think most of it will end up on Pujols shoulders again. If he’s healthy and has another big year, there is a decent chance of them finishing over 500. If he gets hurt and misses a lot of time, then, I doubt they’ll finish 500. I think they put too much on his shoulders.
In my opinion, the Cards management (above Tony) doesn’t want to win. If they did, they would have went out and got some help this off season. I live in St. Louis and I know a lot of Card fans. Most of them are mad at the management, and are feeling like they gave up on the players/fans. It’s all about the $. Anyway, though I don’t want the Cards to win, I do feel a little bit bad for them. It sucks to be stranded.
by TheHawkRules on Mar 17, 2009 11:21 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
As far as being the "surprise" team
I’ll take Pittsburgh. Their expectations are so low, if they play near .500 baseball, it’ll be a surprise. I think they have enough young talent that if it matures, they can play a spoiler to some teams.
I don’t think any of the other 5 teams in the division have enough to knock the Cubs off, barring a lot of injuries.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Mar 17, 2009 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
I doubt any team will knock the Cubs off. But Baseball has a history of teams doing things they weren’t supposed too. I was just wondering which team had the most potential in this division to do that. Hopefully, none will…
by TheHawkRules on Mar 17, 2009 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess St. Louis would be my guess then.
If they can scrape together enough pitching, and the Cubs took a step back, I could see them in the hunt. It’d have to be one of those years where 86 wins or something like that wins the division, IMO.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Mar 17, 2009 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How much of that...
…rests on Pujols shoulders?
by TheHawkRules on Mar 17, 2009 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
when he was injured last year
our offense didn’t suffer fwiw
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I should say
it didn’t suffer as much as one might think…
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good question
I don’t trust the Cardinals offense beyond Pujols as much as others.
While I think Greene will rebound from last year, I don’t know how much he’ll improve. I think Ankiel was exposed to an extent, by the end of last year, while Duncan isn’t an answer in LF.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Mar 17, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Duncan is a catch 22
he has power and a good eye, but his defense leaves a lot to be desired. hopefully it will be his break out season, but personally I’d rather see about 3 other outfielders in line before him.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Defnitely
There are things to like about Duncan – he kind of reminds me of Hoffpauir in the sense that he can hit the ball, but putting him in the outfield makes you want to close your eyes.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Mar 17, 2009 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's comedic
but hard to watch
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
umm...all of it?
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
by Archie on Mar 17, 2009 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Reds
have a lot of young talent on the field and the mound. My bet is that Cinci offers the greatest potential to finish 2nd in the Central. If they are in contention, and make a play at the deadline, who knows what they could do? I like their line- up a lot.
"Chicago Cubs fans are ninety percent scar tissue." - George F. Will
by Slakkr on Mar 17, 2009 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
That’s cool. Thanks for the post. I don’t really pay any attention to the Reds because I’ve never really liked them. Plus, their management…well, i don’t think is that great. But anyway, in this game of baseball, anyone can pull together a “surprise” season. Thanks for the post!
by TheHawkRules on Mar 17, 2009 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that the Reds could be a surprise...
…but I think Dusty Baker is a really bad fit for that young team. And I’m not trying to start another “bash Dusty” thread here. I just think that the Reds may have trouble playing consistently with Dusty trying to teach them his, IMHO, antiquated approach to the game.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 17, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has his philosophy...
…changed any since he was with the cubs?
by TheHawkRules on Mar 17, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I obviously can't say for sure...
…but Dusty doesn’t seem like the kind of guy to change his philosophy about anything. I watched the MLB Network’s 30/30 spring training preview of the Reds, and seeing Dusty say something along the lines of, “This is the team I’ve always dreamed of managing because I can teach them the proper way to play the game of baseball,” made me downgrade my opinion of the Reds chances this season.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 17, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As you can probably guess....
… I’ll be writing about the Reds tomorrow.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 17, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do I think...
…it will turn into another Dusty board?
by TheHawkRules on Mar 17, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It won't.
At least, I’ll try to not make it all about him. However, he IS the Reds manager, so I’ll at least try to make it relevant to what’s going on now.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 17, 2009 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
turn...
I wasn’t referring to your writing. When I said “turn,” I was thinking it won’t originally be about Dusty, but it will turn to be about Dusty. Haha. Sorry.
by TheHawkRules on Mar 17, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I understand that.
I’ll try to steer the post in a direction so if it IS about Dusty, at least it’ll be about what he’s doing NOW.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 17, 2009 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Y'know, it did occur to me while I was writing that post...
…that I probably should’ve saved it for your Reds review.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 17, 2009 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
dusty baker
will make sure the reds aren’t a contender
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hah
I agree that for the long-term he’s brutal for a franchise, but let’s not forget that he did oversee a Giants World Series appearance in 2002.
I think the Reds will be a surprise, but they better win quickly because their young pitchers will be on the surgeon’s table in two to three years.
by Zonk on Mar 17, 2009 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that was the year
Barry Bonds was putting up deity-like numbers, no?
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I mentioned that line a few days ago
it STILL makes me laugh.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 17, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Cincy makes their run this year
i just hope Dusty leaves some arms attached at the end of it.
The shortest distance between two points is under construction.
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Mar 17, 2009 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Injuries...
… If they win, their young pitchers will just collapse in the playoffs, and then basically never pitch again after the season.
by TheHawkRules on Mar 17, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who Will Surprise Us with Pittsburgh?
You see the Pirates’ AAA club in Indy. What new, young stars will make an impact with Pittsburgh this season? I’d like to see the Pirates get to the 75-win mark, while losing all of the games they play against the Cubs.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Mar 17, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Andrew McCutcheon for one.
If he doesn’t break camp with the Buccos, he’ll be up there quick. He’s added 20 pounds of muscle in the offseason from what I’ve read (he could afford to), so if his power comes around, he’ll be a 5-tool player.
I also look at their pitching as being deeper than in years past. Ross Ohlendorf and Daniel McCutcheon both looked good last year in Indianapolis and can add to bullpen depth, at the very least. I think their starting pitching is due to rebound also, as I don’t think Gorzelanny and/or Snell will be as bad as they were last season.
By no means do I expect them to challenge for the NL Central flag, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see a much more competitive team who is able to cause fits for the Reds, Cardinals, etc., and keep them from mounting much of a threat to the Cubs.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Mar 17, 2009 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jeff Francour added 20 pounds of muscle last season as well
Its a funny story actually.
by Wad on Mar 17, 2009 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But did he need it?
McCutcheon was playing around 175 pounds last year in Triple-A and was one of the youngest guys at that level.
His wrists have always been quick, but he added to his upper body and forearms, which will help his power numbers.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Mar 17, 2009 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone here in Atlanta thought he did
They all complained about his lack of power, hitting only doubles and such. I’m not sure of his weight, but I just know it messed something up with his swing.
It was thought it would help his power numbers.
Its just an example, and I am sure there are other examples of it working. I just cringe a little when people say he added muscles so he has to be better.
Its a funny story actually.
by Wad on Mar 17, 2009 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, its understandable
I think McCutcheon could have used some extra weight. My guess is by the end of last season, he wasn’t near the 175 he’s listed at.
McCutcheon will be 22 all season, so regardless of the extra weight, I think his numbers will improve simply because he’s gaining more experience.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Mar 17, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
St. Louis Sports Radio
I listened to some of this during the off season. A lot of these guys were really pushing the Cards management to sign Jon Garland to at least a 1 deal. They talked about how he would pretty much guarantee them decent pitching and 200 innings. They were almost begging for it to happen. It reminded me of us and Peavy. Anyway, that never happened.
by TheHawkRules on Mar 17, 2009 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe....
… but on the radio, they kept talking about how his 200 innings would help out a lot. He’s pretty much averaged that for quite awhile. They weren’t saying he should be a number 1 starter… but, they thought he had something to offer to the Cards that they needed.
Its no big deal really.
by TheHawkRules on Mar 17, 2009 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
there is a reason its called talk radio
"When the boogie man goes to sleep he checks his closet for Chuck Norris"
by elirock83 on Mar 30, 2009 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
are you kidding me?
they don’t want to win? that’s kind of ridiculous…
the main weakness last season was the bullpen, and it is significantly better. they just get that label because some of their players are not well known yet since they are young. Joe Mather, Pujols, Ankiel, Ludwick, and Glaus will all have the potential to hit over 30 home runs a piece, why do they need to sign a bunch of new players? they couldn’t afford any top tier starters….
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
… it was obvious they had a chance, but needed some help. Some trades would’ve added a much needed boost. I don’t think their desire to win is very big right now. They’ll take it if it comes, but they won’t go the extra mile to at least try and get the job done.
by TheHawkRules on Mar 17, 2009 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the problem with the trades that were offered
is that it would fleece our farm system, and with a lower payroll, the cards can’t afford that. also, they are saving to re-sign Pujols, and having young cost-controlled players will allow them to do that… at least, that’s what I’m hoping.
just look at the brewers who made a big trade last season and where it got them: no top prospect, no ace pitcher for 2009
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
… but in my opinion, if you have a chance to win right now, you owe it to the present team and the fans to try to win right then. If your thinking of the future, then, that is more money minded than winning minded. Dunno if it’s right or wrong… or whatever. That’s just how I think. It’s no big deal. I just know that most of the Cards fans I know were miffed at the management last season.
Personally, I don’t mind… :OP Go Cubs Go! lol ;O)
by TheHawkRules on Mar 17, 2009 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe it's why the cardinals contend most of the time :)
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
*Cough cough cough* Pujols...lol
by TheHawkRules on Mar 17, 2009 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
heh
that and their pitch to contact philosophy… which worries me. if they put Schumaker out there and don’t give him a short leash, their pitching could fall apart since they rely on stellar defense.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll bet most Brewers fans have no issue with that CC trade
That fanbase wanted to make the playoffs and they got what they wanted. If I were them I would have no regrets.
www.talkingchicagobaseball.blogspot.com
by nji232 on Mar 17, 2009 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's just one of those things
that is sort of win-lose… it’s neutral. but if you don’t have a major market payroll, you need to watch out for things that might put your team into hibernation for a while.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They lost trade chips. They won’t go into hibernation because they use player A instead of player B.
by ol Pete on Mar 17, 2009 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder how far the CC/Laporta trade
has set the Brewers back. Strange how you get both good and bad from trades, huh?
The shortest distance between two points is under construction.
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Mar 17, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think you can send much hate to the Brewers for that trade...
..they lost talent, but that wasn’t CC’s fault. He was awesome.
by TheHawkRules on Mar 17, 2009 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
especially for them
I think it was a pretty good move… Sabbathia is amazing, anyone less and yeah, it woulda been dumb. feel sorry for them, losing Sheets and Sabbathia all the sudden makes them look a little lifeless.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not a lot
they gave up good prospects, but only at positions in which they were already good.
The two big names in the trade were Matt LaPorta and Taylor Green. Green is a third baseman, where they already have a superior prospect in Mat Gamel (although most think he’s eventually destined for first base.) LaPorta is a first baseman and of course, they have the Prince there. Trading LaPorta does put an emphasis on re-signing Fielder, but, as I wrote, it might make more sense to move Gamel there if Fielder leaves.
They lost some great trading chits, but they lost them in trades. They really aren’t going to be hurt on the field by the Sabathia trade.
by Josh77 on Mar 17, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The PTBNL was Brantley, a CF. Lorenzo Cain is the expected player to fill that slot. He played yesterday against the Cubs. Green is still with the team.
by ol Pete on Mar 17, 2009 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
CARDS SPRING TRAINING REPORT
I live 10 minutes from the Cards/Marlins spring home Roger Dean Stadium Jupiter FL.
I have seen the Cards play 4 games Chris Carpenter pitched 2 of those games and
looked excellent. Schumacker at 2nd base they want his bat but do they want the 5
errors he has made so far ? They have a good back up in Joe Thurston a much
traveled 29 year old…..
The run of the mill Card fan I have talked to thinks Tony can pull another miricle.
However the more savy Card fans are not optomistic..
by nimblenikelfoos on Mar 17, 2009 11:41 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I dunno
I’m pretty optimistic. they were picked to have a losing season last year, and they would have won over 90 games if it weren’t for the bullpen and injuries.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not that it really matters but...
the Cards did have a losing season in 2007.
by smmcctrk on Mar 17, 2009 11:51 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
ah
I thought that they did have one in there somewhere… that was a freak season!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You guys are right.
I forgot about that. I’ll fix the post.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 17, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The list of players who HAVE to be good players in order for the Cardinals to compete
Chris Carpenter
Colby Rasmus
Ryan Ludwick
Todd Wellemeyer
Kyle Loshe
Skip Shumaker (at 2nd base)
Joe Mather
Chris Perez
Jason Motte
Adam Wainwright
If all of those guys have great seasons then they are maybe close to the level of the Cubs. Maybe.
www.talkingchicagobaseball.blogspot.com
by nji232 on Mar 17, 2009 12:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Their biggest wild-card
is right at the top of your list. If Carpenter is back to his old form, the Cards suddenly are not to be overlooked. Now granted, that’s assuming that Loshe and Wellemeyer match their ‘08 performance, but Carpenter is their biggest key, and Glaus’s health is probably No. 2 on their must-have list.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
by ctcoff99 on Mar 17, 2009 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
if 8 outta 10 are quite good, that will suffice imo. if schumaker can’t make the conversion to 2B, then they need to trade the guy. no idea for who or what, but yeah.
Ludwick probably won’t be as good as last year, but if he is, he is one of the best hitters in baseball. his slugging was second only to Pujols. Lohse and Wellemeyer are pretty big wild cards, but Lohse is your Garland type pitcher but better. Wellemeyer has the potential to be as good as anyone, but also could suck. Rasmus doesn’t have to be good this season, because, well, our outfield is very deep and talented. if Carpenter doesn’t stick, it will be like last season. which isn’t that bad a thing.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Incidentally...
… thanks for stopping by here and giving us some really good Cubs fan/Cards fan conversation. I always like hearing from knowledgeable fans of Cub opponents.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 17, 2009 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks!
I have been procrastinating on stopping by here for some time, and today I am posting enough for 3 lifetimes
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
its no sweat
we like when other guys stop by and talk baseball.
is this the longest spring training ever?
The shortest distance between two points is under construction.
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Mar 17, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And only 3 1/2 weeks to go!
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 17, 2009 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
are you trying to kill me?
sheesh.
:-P
The shortest distance between two points is under construction.
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Mar 17, 2009 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a pretty long list.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 17, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly I only put Carpenter and Wainwright on there bc of injury questions
If those two are healthy then they are good pitchers. But Loshe, Wellemeyer, Ludwick, and Shumaker all had career seasons last year and they couldn’t catch the Cubs. Motte and/or Perez have to be able to shut down games at the end. Mather has to fill in for Glaus until he gets back and Rasmus needs to be at least part of what they claim him to be to cover for regression/injury in the OF.
www.talkingchicagobaseball.blogspot.com
by nji232 on Mar 17, 2009 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a very simple policy regarding the Cardinals.....
and it’s that I start looking past them when they are mathematically eliminated in September. Never a day sooner. And I’m simply going by my past experience. As long as LaRussa is their manager and Duncan is their pitching coach, they could probably throw their Class AA team out there for a full season and at least be competitive. I feel the same way about Houston, based on the way they always seem to be dead and buried at the All-Star break, yet always manage to contend somehow in the second half. This year, I look at the Cardinals in much the same way I look at the Brewers. Over 162 games, they most likely do not have the pitching to get it done. However, on any given day, don’t overlook them because they can out-slug you with their big guns.
My experience going to Cubs/Cards games is much the same as Al’s, and I have been to many in both Chicago and St. Louis. It seems the Cubs/Cards rivalry is one of the few rivalries I can think of where when you see a group of friends there, or even families, there are almost always Cubs fans and Cards fans in the same group. And the fans can root like hell against each other for 3 hours, but still have a beer after the game. Most Cardinal fans will never admit this, but they respect Cub fans. But Cards fans, especially as you get further south in Illinois and their numbers increase, get much bolder in numbers. If they are losing, they keep pretty quiet. But if they are winning, and especially if they know you’re a Cubs fan, they are in your face constantly.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
by ctcoff99 on Mar 17, 2009 12:36 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Houston is my big pet peeve
because they always streak at the end of the season and surprise you, it doesn’t seem to matter who’s on the team. The Brewers are dangerous because they have a lot of power, but their plate discipline sucks and I can’t take their pitching seriously. rec’d
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How dangerous would the Astros be if they ever
put together a decent first half?
hopefully all of our early meeting this year let us step on their necks. :-P
The shortest distance between two points is under construction.
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Mar 17, 2009 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really hope that the asstros go away this season
I like the cubs better personally. it was annoying to see them choke last season, even for me.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aww
that was almost sweet.
The shortest distance between two points is under construction.
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Mar 17, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
my younger brother likes the cubs
just wanted to see them, well, win one game
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One would've been better
The shortest distance between two points is under construction.
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Mar 17, 2009 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
considering how hard it is for us to win 1
how anyone ever wins 11 is sort of mindboggling.
The shortest distance between two points is under construction.
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Mar 17, 2009 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm certainly not comfortable dismissing the Cards this year (or any year).
I think they and the Brewers are in a similiar position in that, if they can get their offenses to click and if they can get just enough out of their pitching, they could put up quite a dogfight if the Cubs don’t establish early season dominance and play competitively down the stretch.
I would give the Cards the edge, however, because they seem to overperform year after year; whereas the Brewers tend to underperform for long stretches during the season.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 17, 2009 12:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Shame the Brewers got rid of Yost
he was always good for a stretch of shocking losses
The shortest distance between two points is under construction.
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Mar 17, 2009 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Random thought:
which is less likely & more key to their teams success:
Dempster repeating his career year or Carpenter having a DL free/solid season for the Cards?
The shortest distance between two points is under construction.
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Mar 17, 2009 12:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Carpenter.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 17, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
interesting
I’ll have to be safe and say we need Carpenter more than you need Dempster.
so cubs rotation is:
Harden (will probably stress out the bullpen a little bit because of low innings)
Zambrano
Dempster (will probably not be as good as last year, but still quite good)
Lilly
?
is samardja or whatever his name is going to be the 5th starter?
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably Sean Marshall for the 5 spot
Or Heilman. I don’t think Smardjza is ready yet.
The shortest distance between two points is under construction.
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Mar 17, 2009 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what do you guys think of Marshall?
I’m not really sold, but I don’t know much about him either.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Sean
He’s worked his ass off to do anything the team/Lou has asked of him. He may never be an ace, but he’s a competitor.
The shortest distance between two points is under construction.
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Mar 17, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
cards rotation could end up being not that different
if Carp doesn’t stick. obviously not as good, but we will rely on a young guy like Mitch Boggs if Carpenter isn’t back.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've always been a big Marshall fan.
His K rate has been going up the past couple years, so he appears to be ready to finally put together a decent full season as a starting pitcher. (He was used out of the pen for the last two years – last year as a swing man.) I think his ceiling is a middle of the rotation guy but, even if he doesn’t make it there, he has the makings of a solid No. 4- or No. 5-level pitcher.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 17, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The key to Marshall's success is stamina.
If he can consistently go six innings, he’ll be successful in that #5 role.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 17, 2009 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd say Carpenter, too.
Demp will probably regress, but that would still make him a solid No. 3-level starter. Carpenter appears to be Ben Sheets South – brillant pitcher with bum luck when it comes to staying healthy.
Question for Cards fans: Has there been any further serious discussion of making Carpenter the closer (a la Kerry Wood)?
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 17, 2009 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not really
I mean, they may think of it more if it becomes more clear that he simply doesn’t have the endurance to be a starter…. then yeah, that’s not a bad idea. but if he can start, then that is more important.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
someone who can nail games down in the 9th helps alot. You guys would’ve been even scarier last year if you’d gotten any kind of consistancy out of the closer role.
The shortest distance between two points is under construction.
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Mar 17, 2009 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes
but one of the reason’s our bullpen wasn’t that great was that they had to make up for our starting rotation… they got really tired.
if you just look at using a pitcher who has a lot of ability, and say, yeah, I want to have him in games more, then that kind of proves that he should be a starter. over at VEB, we kind of think that the closer role has been made out to be more important than it really is.
Last year, Marmol was your high pressure situation guy…. now who does that?
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want my best reliever in the most high leverage situations possible.
Whether in the 7, 8 or 9th. I want Marmol in.
The shortest distance between two points is under construction.
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Mar 17, 2009 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yep
why limit him to just 9th inning…
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would the cards brass ever move
Carp to that kind of role? Or are you sold on Perez?
The shortest distance between two points is under construction.
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Mar 17, 2009 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
On St. Louis Radio...
I’ve heard then talk about Carpenter closing. They right it off as it won’t happen unless Carp wants it or if his arm blows up.
by TheHawkRules on Mar 17, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sold on either Motte or Perez
Motte has been lights out at every level, and Perez has been groomed to be a closer his whole career, his main issue is some control problems that he will probably work out.
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
nice talking to you all
I can’t remember a season that I have been this excited about baseball. I love all the young players coming up, and it will be interesting to see if the cubs stay healthy, hah!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 1:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for stopping by.
Don’t be a stranger!
The shortest distance between two points is under construction.
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Mar 17, 2009 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ah
I had to come back for a sec, ok!
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Definately come back again
Nice to have a rational, thinking, polite fan of another team on here. It happens from time to time. One of the things that I like about this site is that it doesn’t degenerate into name calling of other teams fans.
Now each other… =)
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
by Archie on Mar 17, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay
I’m off to get some work done. Hope y’all have a good day!!
The shortest distance between two points is under construction.
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Mar 17, 2009 1:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I live in the heart of Missouri right now.
And openly wear Cubs shirts, and no one has said anything, besides my friends who are Cardinals fans…no strangers yelling Cubs suck or anything.
Cardinals fans are too soft…
Chicago Bulls Blog and Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
by Andrew7 on Mar 17, 2009 2:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
hah
they probably think you’re starting a joke or something, j/k
by Cards Fan in Chitown on Mar 17, 2009 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wear some Kansas gear and I promise you will eventually hear something
I see people wearing Cub hats all the time in STL so it is not that big of a deal. Someone wearing KU stuff though gets the death look.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Mar 17, 2009 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cards Fan Here living in Saint Louis
I was up in Chicago Sunday for the Saint Patrick’s Day Parade which was awesome by the way. I was kind of worried about being a Cardinal Fan down there but was happy to find most of the Cub fans just wanted to talk baseball. It is still spring training so it is too early for trash talking in my book. What surprised me was that Cub’s fans had more hate for the Sox’s fan than me. I don’t mind rooting for the Sox though since I went to High School with Buehrle .
(Now on to baseball)
The one thing about the Cardinals is that we are a really young team. I think the oldest guy on our team is Franklin who is 36. We were the 5th youngest team in baseball last year and we lost Russ Springer and Izzy this off season. Young teams seem to be fun to watch regardless so I am really looking forward to this season.
The Cardinals outfield depth is rather impressive. I don’t think Rasmus is going to make the OF out of ST this year. Any of our starting OFer’s in AAA could play in the majors now. Brian Barton, Colby Rasmus, and Jon Jay. That is not even including Allen Craig who has just hitting the cover off the ball this ST. Hitting 1.220 OPS in 22 AB’s. Jay is the one to keep your eye on imo. If wasn’t for Rasmus he would be the most coveted OF prospect in our system. He can flat out hit and was an excellent fielder last year. (Saved 22 Runs with his glove last year).
Motte though has been my favorite Cardinal to watch this ST. He is the one I think will win the closer job. He posts ridiculous K Rates. He posted a 14.85 K/9 last year in AAA than when it is paired up with the fact he rarely walks people makes him closer potential in my eyes. Perez has higher upside but Motte has it now. His biggest weakness is his secondary pitches but so far good things are being said about his secondary pitches in ST.
Like a lot of you said I would never rule out STL. We have a lot of trade chips cause of such depth at 3B and OF. Our biggest weakness is our starting pitching. We just seems like too many things have to go right for them. The good thing is if we are having starting pitching problems I think the Front Office will make a move for one.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Mar 17, 2009 6:07 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
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