Corner Outfield Platoon ~ DLee?
by Pendulum on Mar 17, 2009 9:59 PM CDT
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PrintCurious as to whether the Cubs have thought to test Derrek Lee in either corner outfield slot as a means to sustain outfield defense, keep his bat in the game, while allowing Hoffpauir's left-handed bat to be in more games?
Lee may never have played the positions, but judging from Hoffpauir's limited skills, he sure couldn't do worse. To me, DLee has always looked like a cross between Dave Winfield and Bernie Williams ~ tall, rangy, athletic, and with pretty good first step reaction time/speed for a tall player. Winfield was a superb left fielder and the same height and general build as DLee.
I don't know ~ but Lee sure seems like he could cut off in the gaps and handle the glove exceptionally well. As for his arm... can't tell.
Perhaps he would enjoy the change. Perhaps not. If it accounted for 25 games across 160+, it may not prove too demanding... or, conversely, worth it. Can't tell. But, you worry about corner defense when Bradley or Soriano are down, unless Fukudome fills in; but then... the bat.
Mostly, it would seem that Hoffpauir is only a first baseman, on the big circuit, without the skills to provide even adequate defense in ther corners. And yet, one wonders what a more regular diet of AB's (certainly more than bench duty provides) could do.
Anyway, I honestly don't know if they've considered this. But, if not, it's worth seeing what people think ~ either way.
Thanks.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Interesting
however, Micah’s bat is not good enough to downgrade two defensive positions.
Even if this really was an option, I can’t imagine DLee willingly moving to the outfield at this point in his career. Even mentioning it is a slap to his face
There's a reason
why 1st baseman are 1st baseman. Usually because their arm sucks or their defense is a liability everywhere else. I don’t for sure but I would imagine he fits into one of the categories thus the reason he became a 1st baseman.
On top of that no way does a gold glove 1st baseman give his position up.
I dont care who the new owner is as long as he/she/them come equipped with a Jake Peavy and a Joe Beimel!!!
Derrek Lee continues to hit like an old man in decline phase
As mentioned in another thread, I’m starting to come around to the idea that Micah Hoffpauir might actually serve a role at 1st base. The slowdown in Derrek Lee over the past year plus is eye-opening. He’s turning into Fred McGriff in a Cub uniform in fact.
I haven't followed Spring ball at all but was wondering whether Lee shows any signs of regaining the pop in his bat?
I know it’s just Spring, but after his dismal 2008 and the disappearance of his power, I would like to see him driving the ball hard again and having good ABs.
He doesn't have it in him anymore
Derrek Lee has hit a stage where putting him down for 20 HRs and 75 RBIs is about right. His best days as a run producer are behind him. What will earn my ire this year is if Lee continues to do nothing with hitter advantage counts. He’s getting to a point where his whole at bat is about looking for one specific pitch.
And still
And still better than anything we can cound on from a 29 YEAR OLD rookie.
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by puckishcubsfan on Mar 18, 2009 8:16 AM CDT up reply actions
compared to a 29 year old
first time starting 2B that everyone is giving a free ride to
I’m just pointing out that fact
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Differencer
Difference is we don’t have a better proven choice at 2nd base.
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by puckishcubsfan on Mar 18, 2009 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions
But still
But still to compare our alternatives at 2nd to Lee is plain silly.
And all of our middle alternatives have actually shown something on the major league level for more than 2 weeks.
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by puckishcubsfan on Mar 18, 2009 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions
i only compared the two
by age, everyone is down on Hoff for being 29, but ok with LBR being 29 getting his first shot as every day starter. I am all for using stats, trends, etc. but to use age against one and ignore it for another is not proper IMO.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Moreover,
The guy Fontenot is replacing (DeRosa) was better offensively in 2008 than the guy Hoffpauir would be replacing.
No one is saying that the move should happen immediately.
But one way or another, there will be a new Cub 1B in 2011.
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Just for the record
What are you expecting from Lee this year?
Because he’s turning into late-era Mark Grace at an alarming rate. And there comes a point when you realize that 15 HR from your starting 1B isn’t cutting it anymore – especially if you’re paying him eight figures.
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I'd say the differencer is:
Mike Fontenot: 549 career major league plate appearances.
Micah Hoffpauir: 80 career major league plate appearances.
We have just a bit more data for LBR. In addition, Fontenot has a much more compact, quick swing, which, I think makes his odds for major league success much greater.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
I understand that
but to use age as why one will not be successful, and to disregard it for another who, based on ABs would be a 29 year old Sophmore (which is old for a Soph even) is not a logical argument. Use the stats, but don’t use age for one and disregard for another IMHO
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
You don't know that.
At the end of last season, Hoffpauir was a better hitter than Lee.
Lee may turn it around this year. If he holds steady, Hoff will see more playing time. if his decline continues, Hoff will see a lot more playing time.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Hoffpauir a better hitter than Lee?
Please.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
What are you hoping for from Lee in 2009?
Realistically, I don’t see much more than .280-20-80 in the best case.
I think Hoffpauir can do that, too.
Lee is coming off of 5 straight months of sub .800 OPS. That wasn’t a slump — that was a fundamental bat-speed problem.
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sadly
certain players can slump and get a free pass, others get hung with one bat AB it seems
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
I don't think Hoffpauir can do that.
D-Lee also draws walks and has a lifetime .367 OBA. Hoffpauir will have to hit .340 to do that with the holes in his swing.
Derrek supposedly had some neck problems last year which impacted his swing. If he is healthy, there’s no reason he can’t put up a .300-25-90 season with a .850-.875 OPS. Hoffpauir can’t do that.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
maybe so
but that is living on a “IF” for Dlee’s health, vs the “IF’s” of an unproven 1B who likely has more power at this stage in their respective careers. Both could be a gamble, and one is a safer gamble ONLY because we know what he has done before, and the other is a huge unknown
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
it is possible Al
Lee is going to turn 34 this season, isn’t it plausible that his better days are behind him?
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
If I may
Chances are that is correct. I still maintain keeping Hoff on the roster and getting him 20-25 starts at first. This will provide Lee with the rest that a player of his caliber will need over the long season.
"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"
that sounds about right
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
to gain the pop
you first have to make contact
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
No, he has not.
He’s hitting .179, and his only extra-base hit was a double.
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IN MESA!
In Mesa.
I can think of a few people that know baseball that want the Cubs to replace Lee with Hoffpauir.
The OPPOSING MANAGERS!
Nobody else thinks the Cubs should do this.
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by puckishcubsfan on Mar 18, 2009 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Who was better last September?
In an MLB pennant race?
In the rate stats, Hoffpauir, and by a large margin. In the counting stats, still Hoffpauir, which is kind of amazing when you consider that Hoff had half the AB.
Derrek Lee didn’t break .800 in OPS in any month after April. He wasn’t even inconsistent – he was just consistently bad.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
In a pennant race? You're serious?
Hoffpauir had ONE good day, the day he went 5-for-5 with two homers. Take that day out of his record and he hit .294/.351/.397.
Doesn’t look quite so good now, does he?
Look, if he were 23 years old and done what he did last year, I’d be excited about the possibilities. But he is 29. He is a minor league lifer, a classic AAAA player who has ONE position.
He’s a poor man’s Jack Cust, without all the walks.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
All
I must disagree with assumption that because he is 29 that he can not succeed at the ML level. Many times,not just in baseball, but in business people are overlooked for whatever reason.
Maybe he has learned his craft but only took a little longer than most. Maybe with Lee at FB for so many years there was no reason to look at him to close. I don’’t know, but please keep an open mind about him.
I am not saying he should start or would become the next Gehrig, but certainly I think he can start 20-25 games spelling Lee. In turn Lee will be that much fresher as the season proceeds.
"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"
I'd rather have Koskie do that.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
A role but any idea that he should supplant Lee more than here and there is ridiculous. Again when will people realize this is a 29 year old rookie!
And it is MESA. Wow let’s supplant the proven veteran with a 29 year old rookie who will most likely hit less homeruns have a lower BA and OBP and play worse defense.
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by puckishcubsfan on Mar 18, 2009 8:15 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm not a Micah Hoffpauir fan, and I certainly didn't suggest he would supplant Derrek Lee
What I DID say is that Hoffpauir may get decent playing time at 1st base. In my view Derrek Lee is close to being in nosedive mode. A little harsh perhaps, but the telltale signs are all there.
Agree on all counts about Lee
I also don’t like that Lee himself seems basically in denial about the facts that are obvious to most of us.
But what will REALLY drive me nuts is if Pinella keeps him in the #3 spot like he did last year. Assuming he continues his downward trend, moving him down in the order could only help. I have a bad feeling though that it could become kind of an ego thing.
by bluekoolaide on Mar 18, 2009 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Moving him
Moving him in the lineup is one thing but benching him for Hoffpauir is so silly it’s not even funny anymore.
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by puckishcubsfan on Mar 18, 2009 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions
What would it take to make the idea less silly?
Say that Lee’s 2006-2008 decline continues, and he’s putting up month-to-month OPS numbers around .680 to .700 this year, with no power.
At the same time, assume that Hoff backs off of awesome 2008 numbers somewhat, but continues to hit for power.
Then can we consider it?
Lee wouldn’t be the first player to fall off hard at age 32-33.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Hey, all options should be kept on the table.
If DLee is that horrible over a prolonged stretch, I could see him going on the DL and Hoffpauir being given a shot.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
His OPS was between .680 and .780 for the last 5 months.
And now he’s a year older. This isn’t exactly a crazy prediction.
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The phrase "proven veteran" starts the slippery slope to mediocrity.
Lee’s decline is a bit scary. If it continues, he should be replaced with Hoffpauir.
Dusty Baker loved “proven veterans”.
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DLee's defense is what will keep him in the game for years to come
Cubs can deal with his declining bat if Derrek Lee continues to have good defense. He is so underrated in that category. If you don’t believe me look at 2006.
Consider moving DLee around in the batting order, not in the field.
Lee is problematic as # 3 hitter
I’ll hereby predict that Lou Piniella has him moved down in the lineup for good by mid-May. Derrek Lee can no longer turn on the ball at near the level he once did. He is slowing down at what I view to be an alarming rate. Quite simply, he has become right-handed hitting version of “Fred McGriff, the Cub Years.” Which is a bad thing.
I'd be happy with Fred McGriff, the Cub Years.
McGriff’s 2001 and 2002 were both substantially better than Lee’s last 2 seasons.
McGriff had a 125 OPS in 2002, and hit 30 HR, and slugged .505 - Lee isn’t within shouting distance of those numbers anymore.
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He was in 2007, when he slugged .513.
I think he can get back to that level.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Lee's defense slipped in 2008.
He was still an asset, but he was nowhere near the defensive 1B he’d been in the past.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
He did seem to struggle more last season.
Interestingly, however, UZR/UZR 150 shows that he improved from 0.8/1.1 in ’07 to 4.4/4.5 in ’08. His career defensive numbers at first base, however, are a sobering -1.0/-0.2.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
Lee benefitted from a career year
and everyone has been expecting that same thing since.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
As I said yesterday, it's kind of a shame.
It’s too bad that Lee’s career year had to be for a lousy team that wasn’t going to accomplish anything…. and it’s even worse for the Cubs that it happened in his contract year, thereby resulting in his albatross of a contract.
It absolutely boggles the mind that the Cubs have $40M in Lee, Fukudome, and Soriano. As I noted yesterday, that cash could have basically gotten us Manny Ramirez and Mark Teixera.
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As I thought the day before yesterday, but didn't say until now...
…you can’t sit there and seriously think MLB is like a store where you can just return things (for FULL CREDIT to boot) and then pick some replacements off the shelf, and as long as the dollar values match up, it’s all good?
or are you thinking the Cubs should have NOT extended Lee a few years ago, NOT signed Soriano a couple years ago, and NOT signed Dome last year; instead just plug in rookies/castoffs at the ML minimum, thereby saving all that money and somehow knowing that Manny and Tex would both be available and sign them this year? Probably wouldn’t have won the back-to-back division titles, not to mention setting attendance records, but it’d be worth sticking it to our fans for those two years because we’d be loaded now, right?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Well, yes.
Obviously, you can’t “return” players, but a team has to pick their spots. And part of that is anticipating when a better player may become available, and refraining from locking up a lesser player for 5 years at “elite player” money.
If budget was ever going to be a concern (and we subsequently learned that it was), there was never any point in throwing all that cash at Fukudome. Sometimes, you’re better off putting that money in the bank, going with a cheaper alternative (in last year’s case, Reed Johnson, who was substantially better), and seeing who is available in next year’s free agent class. Obviously, hindsight is 20/20 – but that was some pretty poor scouting, and a total waste of $12M so far, with $36M still to go.
Regarding Soriano – that still seems like a make-up for their decision not to go after Beltran. They have Soriano essentially the same contract that Beltran got, despite the fact that he was a few years older and had never played CF, which is where they wanted him to be. Again, yes, I would have declined, rather than give such a flawed player a deal that runs through his age 38 season.
As for the Lee extension – it’s the Cubs’ rotten luck that Lee’s magical 2005 happened to be just before his walk year. It certainly seemed like he was poised for a great run, and that the deal was a decent value. Of course, he promptly got hurt, and never hit for power again. As a result, he’s one of the worst values in MLB.
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This is stupid.
I mean, you know the guy won a Gold Glove in:
2003
2005
2007
That’s 3 Gold Gloves. And you’re proposing what?
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
by dtpollitt on Mar 18, 2009 12:06 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Agreed.
Why anyone would consider moving a topnotch defensive first baseman to the outfield at age 33 is beyond me.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
i would like to see him moved
down in the line up, to maybe 6 or 7 at this stage in his career. He is batting 3rd off reputation more than ability to be a 3 hole hitter
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Counterpoint.
Lee does draw a fair number of walks and has a .367 lifetime OBA. This might provide a lot of RBI opportunities for Milton Bradley, batting fourth.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Order
Or, Lee could be good protection for Bradley, ensuring that he sees pitchers.
Personally, I’d do ARam 3rd (he’s the best power bat/hitter on the team, particularly if you’re sticking with Soriano at leadoff), Bradley 4th, and Lee 5th. That gets ARam a couple extra at-bats being 3rd vs. 5th, gets ARam better pitches being ahead of Bradley, uses DLee’s OBP and eye to force pitchers to throw to Bradley, and lowers expectations on Lee a bit (he’s more of a 5 hitter now than a 3 hitter)
by Chadnudj on Mar 18, 2009 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
agreed
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Moving
Moving him in the order is something I tend to agree that should at least be experimented with.
But it’s plain silly to say he should be moved to the bench for a 29 YEAR OLD ROOKIE!
JIXAVERSARY! March 7, 2000 to March 7, 2009. My avatar refers to me participating in the writing challenge and making it~
by puckishcubsfan on Mar 18, 2009 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions
You keep saying "29 year old rookie" as if that were relevant.
If Hoffpauir proves to be better than Lee in 2009, he should play more, regardless of whether he’s 29 or 39.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Agreed
especially when I see people posting “we need to use Guzman, this kid can still make it” when is was born in 1981, or backing Koyie Hill as the “younger kid” vs Bako, when Hill was born in 79 (he is fkin 30). Font is 29 as well, and has enough ABs to be the equivelant of a Sophmore, and this is his first chance to be the everyday starter, but i guess his age also does not euqate into his chance to perform to the same level everyday that he has in a limited role.
I see no one being consistant with using age to bash Hoff yet leave EVERYONE else’s age out of the equation about why they can or cannot produce.
I do not care if a player is 19 or 91, if they can help us win, then bring them with. If they are the hot hand raking balls all over the field, driving in runs, they deserve the right to make the team and the chance to produce during the season.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
While I agree that it's silly to suggest...
…benching DLee now (or when the season begins) in favor of Hoffpauir, anything is possible as the regular season wears on. Would any of us have believed in April that Fukudome would be benched by season’s end?
And, yeah, the “29-year-old rookie” thing is getting a little old.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
+29
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
I agree with you in principle...
…but you really shouldn’t cite Gold Gloves as evidence of anything.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
+1
Gold Gloves are a poor indication of defensive performance. I think daver’s post above citing Lee’s actual numbers would be a better way to determine defensive capabilities.
by dr stabbingworth on Mar 18, 2009 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions
how many gold gloves did Mark Grace win?
that alone debunks using gold gloves as the factor for or against a player
lets not forget Neifi Perez and Cesar Izturis were Gold GLove (caliber) fielders
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
I do have to say
I do have to say chances are Lee would be better defensively than Hoffpauir in the outfield.
JIXAVERSARY! March 7, 2000 to March 7, 2009. My avatar refers to me participating in the writing challenge and making it~
How bout we platoon him to another team?
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Iowa?
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Oh yes
Oh yes Micah Scott or Gary Hoffpauir (or is it Kevin Hoffpauir or Micah Orie?) should start here as a 29 YEAR OLD ROOKIE over someone who in a down year hit 20 homeruns.
JIXAVERSARY! March 7, 2000 to March 7, 2009. My avatar refers to me participating in the writing challenge and making it~
by puckishcubsfan on Mar 18, 2009 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions
saying Iowa was pure tongue in cheek
to platooning him with another team
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Which one?
And how do you get around his NTC?
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
it is a No TRADE clause
not a no SHARING clause :=)
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Hoffpauir
Are you his brother or something?
JIXAVERSARY! March 7, 2000 to March 7, 2009. My avatar refers to me participating in the writing challenge and making it~
by puckishcubsfan on Mar 18, 2009 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions
please read the comment in order
this again is part of the tongue in cheek idea of platooning Dlee with ANOTHER TEAM
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Let us remember this thread on DLee and those who are burying him
It is spring training for locked in veterans—-every year across MLB many if not most have slow starts——it is those who are bucking for a starting role or make the team that have to be keyed up and performing.
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
For an example just look at DLee last spring and then April numbers
Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand. - Homer J Simpson
When did this start
When did all this virulent anti Lee sentiment start?
Wanting to supplant him with a 29 YEAR OLD ROOKIE!
JIXAVERSARY! March 7, 2000 to March 7, 2009. My avatar refers to me participating in the writing challenge and making it~
by puckishcubsfan on Mar 18, 2009 10:35 AM CDT reply actions
It Has Been Defined By Sociologists
you get one moving in the appropriate direction and herd instinct endemic to Internet bulletin boards kicks in.
Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!
Regarding the proposed idea...
…the pendulum has clearly swung to the ridiculous. Can we all just give DLee a chance? I mean, I agree the guy had a down year last season, but he still managed to put up a .800+ OPS (110 OPS+).
If he continues to struggle this season then, yes, Lou should consider dropping him in the lineup. But stick him in the outfield? Why? This team already has FIVE outfielders. I don’t even get why Lou keeps putting Hoffpauir out there. His services (and I use that term loosely) in the corner spots aren’t needed either.
And I hope we’re not fixating on DLee’s ST numbers. Certainly not in the very middle of a very long spring training. Certainly not when we know that veteran players often take it easy during spring training and rev up slowly.
We’ll probably never see the 2005 DLee again, but I think there’s still a chance he could get his OPS up into the mid- to upper 800s. And he still plays a solid first base. Yeah, more power from the first base position would be nice. But I’m not sold on Micah Hoffpauir and DLee isn’t going anywhere.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
The only reason Lee had a OPS above .800 last year was a monster April
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5775/splits;_ylt=Amb4NFKHLGZbFAOGBKuUEXGFCLcF
April: 1.151
May: .681
June: .775
July: .781
August: .787
Sept: .785
The fact that those June through September numbers are so close is actually quite scary. He couldn’t even SLG for .450 during 5 months of the season. Moving him from 1B at this point is downright silly, but he might actually be better suited to bat 2nd depending on the lineup with his OBP skills. Those haven’t started to go down but pitchers will certainly be less afraid to go after him and I’m worried to see what happens then.
by IllinoisCubs on Mar 18, 2009 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions
WOW
look at Fukudome
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8165/splits;ylt=ApY7NeSLBrbZZExRj8yliyFCLcF
OPS
April 0.837
May 0.792
June 0.789
July 0.688
August 0.546
September 0.577
he and DLee are not too far from each other
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Well, I wouldn't go that far.
I’m no sabermagician, but I think there’s a pretty significant difference between all those numbers.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
I must confess...
…I was avoiding looking at this month-by-month OPS for precisely that reason. Pretty scary stuff. Still, I think he at least deserves a shot at redeeming himself. Although he’s never even alluded to it in recent interviews, I still think he may have been suffering from a nagging injury.
If he really has hit the wall, though, putting him in the two-hole may not be feasible (in Lou’s mind) with Soriano batting leadoff. That would mean two righties in a row. Honestly, the only option I see (given Lou’s “standard” lineup vs. righties) is the seventh spot:
1. Soriano
2. Dome
3. Aramis
4. Bradley
5. Soto
6. Fontenot
7. DLee
8. Theriot
9. Pitcher
I mean, if his power is gone, putting him in the fifth spot doesn’t make much sense.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
Al,
Do you ever go to the store or about town and think I cant believe people are at home chatting about replacing a gold glove firstbaseman on my blog.
Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand. - Homer J Simpson
Y'know, I think...
…once you read someone suggesting moving Soriano back to second base or reacquiring Kenny Lofton, you go rather numb.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
You know who else was a Gold Glove first baseman?
Doug Mientkiewicz.
You could also count on him hitting a .280 or so with 10-15 HR and 65-75 RBI. He was a nice player.
That didn’t stop the Twins from dropping him like a rock in favor of a younger, less defensively talented, but better hitting player. It was the right decision.
Because first base defense, while a nice perk, isn’t worth nearly as much as first base offense.
And if D-Lee is turning into a nice former gold glove winner with a .280 average and 15 HR and 75 RBI, he should be replaced at the soonest possible opportunity.
And for the record, the team should be (and probably is) planning for Lee’s replacement – it’s not likely that he’s going to be playing 1B for the Cubs in 2 years.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Gold Gloves
just like all awards are voted on, and not always reflect the true winner of the award based on the stats.
Not saying that it means nothing to be a Gold Glover, jsut saying that people put too much emphasis on it sometimes
Grace many times had .995 or better fielding with less than 10 errors in 1300+ total chances, but did not win the award. There is too much name recognition, alone that those voting use to determine who wins and who doesn’t.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Often based upon reputation, or offensive prowess.
There’s a strong tendency for GG voters to just give the award to the guy who won it last time.
For instance, Brad Ausmus won the 2006 Gold Glove over Yadier Molina, despite allowing 60 SB to 17 thrown out.
In 2007 Molina allowed 23 steals and threw out 27. Still no GG, despite the fact that everyone knew he was the best defensive catcher in the game. They gave it to Russell Martin, who allowed a staggering 82 steals – because Martin was the clear silver slugger at the position, and the GG voters also tend to award offensive performance.
In 2008, Molina won the Gold Glove. He will now proceed to win like 10 more in a row, because once the voters get the idea that a guy is good defensively, it takes a looooong time for them to change their minds.
In
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
There was a lot of hoopla
when ARam didnt win a Gold Glove in 2006, when Scott Rolen win (IIRC)
2006 Head to Head Rolen – Rami
Aram
POS 3B
G 156
GS 155
OUTS 4,059
TC 375
TC/G 2.4
CH 362
PO 110
A 252
E 13
DP 17
FLD% 0.965
RF 2.41
ZR 0.772
Team
Scott Rolen
POS 3B
G 142
GS 141
OUTS 3,648
TC 428
TC/G 3
CH 413
PO 93
A 320
E 15
DP 32
FLD% 0.965
RF 3.06
ZR 0.803
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
I hate to say this, but..
I think there is good chance that Derrek Lee sucks in 2009. Yes, sucks. To the point where he is one of the last guys you want to see up at bat when runners are on base and the game is on the line.
that could be true
he has been declining, and his ST has not shown any reason to believe he will climb back to expectations
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Reminder, again.
Lee hit .163 in ST last year.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
As Cub fans, we of all people should know not to put
a lot of stock in ST numbers. DLee has a proven record of being a pretty good hitter. Yes, his numbers are on the decline, but plenty of guys have had declines over several years and have mee adjustments and turned things around. I think that DLee deserves the chance to do that before we send him to the scrap heap.
Let’s let the season start and see where things go from there. Veterans don’t go all out and leave their game in ST. It’s what happens during the season that counts. I could care less if he bats.050 in ST. I’ll start to pay attention next month in Houston.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 18, 2009 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions
You can't deny the troubling regression of Derrek Lee
Look at this month-to-month splits last year and then look at his spring training numbers. He is solidifying his position as 5th best 1st baseman in the National League Central. Pujols, Fielder, Berkman, Votto….I take all four of those guys over Lee in a heartbeat at this stage. And Adam LaRoche in Pittsburgh may still put it together !
My problem with Lee is that the Cubs seemingly are living in denial over him. Why is he batting 3rd??? I for the life of me don’t understand that.
Of course you would take the other first basemen over DLee. Other that Berkman, the are all much younger
and hitting the prime of their careers. While I agree that DLee should not be the #3 hitter in the Cubs lineup, I am not ready to throw him under the bus based on the numbers you cite. I still contend that he is suffering the effects of injuries and that he will post better numbers this year if he stays healthy. Berkman’s numbers are just as bad as DLee’s. Older veterans seem to have the ability to look bad in ST and then flip the switch on opening day. It’s too soon to panic.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 18, 2009 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions
true
and that was before this news of a (possible) neck injury which can really have an effect long term depending on the injury. Trust me, I know. I have what is called military neck, and it stems from a back injury in 1995. I have monthly treatment on them both, which has allowed me to avoid surgery. Now I know I am not an athlete in the same league as them, nor do I have the same caliber of specialists to work with but it is something that I can relate to to a certain extent.
I am not saying DLee is done, but I am saying it is cause for concern, and could be reason for Hoff to get some additional playing time early (April) when the cold weather has a nasty effect on an injury like this, as well as let us know what we have or do not have so we know if a move is needed for a back up 1B.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
It is much more likely
The more likely thing is that Hoffpauir will suck.
If anyone really believes if one is traded tomorrow so both play all season as a starter Lee wouldn’t outperform Hoffpauir they are goofy.
JIXAVERSARY! March 7, 2000 to March 7, 2009. My avatar refers to me participating in the writing challenge and making it~
by puckishcubsfan on Mar 18, 2009 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions
That second sentence is AMAZING.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
LOL
I feel like I just participated in the reading challenge, and I didn’t make it.
"I've got an idea...an idea so smart my head would explode if I even began to know what I was talking about." ~Peter Griffin
It's like a rollercoaster ride...but with words!
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
A petition
The following has been received in Bud Selig’s office.
Dear Bud:
It has come to our attention there are fans who want to bench Derrek Lee for Micah Hoffpauir.
We know this would be silly and Lou would never do it.
But we want to see the Cubs weaker.
Please force the Cubs to replace Lou with one of these people.
Signed
The Other 29 Managers in Baseball.
JIXAVERSARY! March 7, 2000 to March 7, 2009. My avatar refers to me participating in the writing challenge and making it~
that might be a little overboard
at least from what i see, those here are saying that there should be competition at any position, and the one performing best plays. DLee has shown signs of decline, and Hoff has shown some late blooming promise. Does this mean that DLee will be put done by Hoff, of couerse not, but it also means that it is plausible that (like Edmonds, sure different situation) Hoff might be able to prove some fans wrong.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Competition is warranted when you have two players of somewhat equal ability vying
for the same position. That’s not the case here.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 18, 2009 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Equal ability....
and at the same point in their career. We have to keep in mind that while Hoffpauir is having a hell of a ST, 1.) it is only ST, and 2.) he is trying to make the team so every at-bat is crucial, and is hence treated as though it meant life or death. I’m not downplaying Hoff’s great ST performance, just stating a fact. D-Lee knows he will be the starting first baseman, and he has a pretty good track record that says he’ll be fine. And as I stated in another fanpost (I missed this one originally), I think having a switch-hitting power hitter behind him will help a great deal, as opposed to another power-hitting right-hander.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
hOFFPAUIR
Don’t get me wrong everyone I think he will be a good backup 1st baseman/outfielder.
But you don’t bench someone who on a down year batted .290 with 20 plus homeruns.
You don’t risk the chance Hoffpauir will be better on a team who is expected to win.
I even say if something happened to Lee where he was lost for the season I would give Micah a month to earn the job before going elsewhere.
I wish Micah could play SS or a weaker position.
I am open to trading Lee in the next few years but replacing him with a proven major leaguer or even a top young prospect.
I am very open to moving him down in the order.
But minimum we can expect at least 270 with 20 homers from Lee. That is very reasonable.
It is a huge maybe Hoffpauir can outdo it.
JIXAVERSARY! March 7, 2000 to March 7, 2009. My avatar refers to me participating in the writing challenge and making it~
Shortstop is not a weaker position.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
"in the next few years"
Lee is 34 and has 2 years left on his deal – this year and next year. And at that point, in all likelihood, the team is going to go in another direction.
There is no “next few years” when it comes to Lee.
And Lee can absolutely hit fewer than 20 HR in 2009. He barely hit 20 HR in 2008, and he’s a year older and slower.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
If this is a discussion about who should start between Lee and Hoffpauir
then, IMO, it’s silly and pointless. Of course Lee isn’t going to be supplanted by a 29 year old rookie. Barring an injury, there’s absolutely no chance of that happening.
What I’m concerned about (and have been since mid season last year) is Pinella’s refusal to, apparently, even consider moving Lee in the order. The #3 spot is supposed to go to the team’s best hitter and, objectively, that’s just not D-Lee anymore. We got away with keeping him in the 3 hole last year, but I don’t think we’ll be able to again.
I’d love to be wrong about this because I’ve always been a fan of Lee. But, based on tehelast several months of last season and ST so far, there’s no reason to believe that, unfortunately, he’s on the downward slope. If this is rue then it’s in the best interests of both Lee and the Cubs to move him down in the order. Otherwise, it could turn out to be a frustrating season.
That's not the discussion, at least not at this point.
Lee is obviously the opening day starter, for this year, and probably for next year. And he’ll get every opportunity to show that he can still hit.
That being said, he has to hit. The Cubs expected orders of magnitude more production from Lee when they gave him a deal paying him $13,250,000 annually for 5 years — 20 HR and 80 RBI is not cutting it.
It hasn’t all been Lee’s fault, as obviously, the wrist injury robbed him of his power for a time, and now his bat may be slowing down a bit earlier than anyone had predicted.
But 2009 is pretty much a make-or-break year for Lee, and having a late-blooming power hitter at the end of the bench trying to make a name (and some money) for himself had better motivate Lee, or Lee will find himself stepping aside more often.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
well said
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Honestly
why is anyone bitching about this guy for? He is a solid firstbaseman. He has never been a big RBI machine. His history will tell you he will drive in 90 or so ribbies. Hit .290 with 20 or so homeruns. I don’’t care if he is 27 or 34, the man will provide. Also he has and will continue to be a solid defender. Last year quite frankly he played way too much.
I for one am happy to have D Lee at firstbase for our Cubs. Just do not overuse him, that is all I have to say.
"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"
Because Derrek Lee is in marked decline that's why
And I’m sick and tired of the excuse that he has a wrist injury. Tell you what folks, older players deal with chronic injuries and it is those chronic injuries that lead to their decline and ultimate exit. If Lee isn’t healed by now, then he’s never going to be healed.
Lou Piniella needs to bat him 6th or 7th. That’s all there is to it. Flip Geovany Soto and Lee and I would be happy. What would make me even more happy is to see Milton Bradley in the three hole where he belongs.
Rami 3 MB 4
would be ideal IMO
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
No Bradley
had never shown anything to hit clean up. I would say hit him 3rd is the spot for him. Ram 4th to hit him in with the HR.
"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"
Still stickin' with the RBI thing, eh wild bill?
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
Okay
gloves off. First you reply about a wrist injury. I have personally never mentioned his neck or wrist injuries in my posts. I am not the biggest Lee fan. I prefer the thumper at FB. But I respect him and think that due to ’05 we all have expected much more. In fact his history never dictated he would ever even come close to ’05.
Certainly at minimum the man has earned his keep. If at some point this season he performs as you think he will, than by all means change it up. I do agree at this point that if you bat Bradley 3rd you can move Lee down to 6th no lower. But again if Lee is not cutting it in the three hole, make the change and see what happens.
As for taking the gloves off, of course that is me. Which is tounge and cheek.
"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"
DLee out a few days minimum, right quad is hurting him according to MLB Network
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
it really doesn't matter if DLee hits 20, 30, or 40 HRs.
If his OPS. is around .800 or better, driving in 90 to 100 runs, and is big when the game matters. He was a very key part of a team that won 97 games last year, and in the very brief series against L.A. he was the best hitter on the team.
Not to mention, if you take out his 2005 season is he really declining? I think he just played over his head that year. In fact his last two years aren’t that much diffrent from the rest of his carrer.
I agree, but see above.
DLee’s OPS was sub-.800 every month last year except April, so there’s definitely cause for concern. That said, I think he deserves a chance to redeem himself in the three-hole.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
Yes, he deserves the chance to get back on track...
I think they’ll give him through June (the warmer weather), but if others are hitting and carrying the load then he’s the type of player that will get a longer time frame to turn it around.
Yes, last year was pretty bad, I’d like to see him bat 2 or even leadoff if the pop is gone, but if he doesn’t turn it around then the corner OF spots won’t work either, at an OPS below .800 given his place on the field he’ll have to sit down (or at least should). It’ll be interesting…and I hope he turns it around.
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