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Around SBN: Explaining Jeremy Lin's Early, Surprising Success

Cubs first baseman Derrek Lee was not expected back in the lineup until Friday, but if he wants to join Team USA this weekend, general manager Jim Hendry said he would not stand in his way.

Team USA is shorthanded at first base after Boston's Kevin Youkilis was sidelined with a mild left ankle sprain on Wednesday. Adam Dunn started at first against Venezuela in the Pool 2 finale of the World Baseball Classic.

almost 3 years ago Ivy_wall_tiny Ivy Walls 83 comments 0 recs  | 

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The way he's going this spring

He might have their blessing to stay there.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Mar 19, 2009 9:00 AM CDT reply actions  

Booooo Badger! Com'on!

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Mar 19, 2009 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not saying I'm happy about it

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Mar 19, 2009 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

The lack of hitting, that is

I’m ok with him going to the WBC

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Mar 19, 2009 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Geez, at this point, maybe some meaningful live action will wake up his bat

Join the BCB Flickr Group: http://flickr.com/groups/bleedcubbieblue

by tony412 on Mar 19, 2009 9:00 AM CDT reply actions  

That seems like a great idea.

ST doesn’t seem to get him going, maybe something with more impact will.

if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand

by N Oakley on Mar 19, 2009 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

We’re only talking about two possible games, and a short plane ride to Los Angeles. Let him go if he wants to.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Mar 19, 2009 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

Koskie could get some time at first.

if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand

by N Oakley on Mar 19, 2009 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

Another very good reason to let D-Lee go for the weekend.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Mar 19, 2009 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

I know. I'm sold.

if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand

by N Oakley on Mar 19, 2009 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Does he need help

getting to the airport? I’ll drive.

by AGC on Mar 19, 2009 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

I can send some gas $$$ via paypal if needed

"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic

by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 19, 2009 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

More meaningful than ST games, anyway.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Mar 19, 2009 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

It seems to everyone playing in these games

that they are meaningful. Did you not see the celebration after USA beat Puerto Rico? You would have thought they won the World Series not to mention the WBC championship. It was just a round 2 game, not even Semi’s yet. I dont care what anyone says, representing your country is more than enough to make it meaningful.

Join the BCB Flickr Group: http://flickr.com/groups/bleedcubbieblue

by tony412 on Mar 19, 2009 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

nice to see

someone who thinks like i do.

There's nothing wrong with this team that more pitching, more fielding and more hitting couldn't help......"--Bill Buckner

by laidbackliam on Mar 19, 2009 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

+USA USA

"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic

by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 19, 2009 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly

You don’t see any dogpiles on spring training games.

These games are meaningful. Perhaps not to the original poster, but to the people playing they are.

by Josh Timmers on Mar 19, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

I got no problem with him heading there to play

the higher competitive nature of the games could be a blessing in disguise for him

"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic

by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 19, 2009 9:52 AM CDT reply actions  

Rec'd.

Well played.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Mar 19, 2009 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Amen brother.

"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09

by daver on Mar 19, 2009 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Guess hack first baseman.

if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand

by N Oakley on Mar 19, 2009 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

If he

is healthy, and it wakes his bat back up to a semblance of the hitter he is being paid to be, then I am all for it. But this may end up being painful in more ways than one.

"I lof to hit de home ron!"

by Tekboy on Mar 19, 2009 11:46 AM CDT reply actions  

TWSS

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Mar 19, 2009 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

TWSS

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Mar 19, 2009 11:46 AM CDT reply actions  

A misplaced TWSS is not funny...

I apologize to the entire internet.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Mar 19, 2009 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

You mean team USA

Are you trying to tell me team usa doesn’t know the greatest player in the history of baseball Micah Hoffpauir is also a 1st baseman?

JIXAVERSARY! March 7, 2000 to March 7, 2009. My avatar refers to me participating in the writing challenge and making it~

by puckishcubsfan on Mar 19, 2009 12:02 PM CDT reply actions  

You might be taking this a bit far . . .

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Mar 19, 2009 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well

The Micah Hoffpauir fan club says he’s a better player then Lee why doesn’t Team USA want him?

JIXAVERSARY! March 7, 2000 to March 7, 2009. My avatar refers to me participating in the writing challenge and making it~

by puckishcubsfan on Mar 19, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Could you point us all to a post...

…that specifically says that Micah Hoffpauir is a better player than Derrek Lee? Thanks.

"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09

by daver on Mar 19, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, that Fanpost doesn't suggest...

…that Hoffpauir is a better player than Lee. It just suggests that the Cubs should consider moving Lee to the outfield.

(And he’s a she.)

"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09

by daver on Mar 19, 2009 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

+ OOPS?

"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic

by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 19, 2009 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nor does anyone in that thread suggest....

…that Hoffpauir should replace Lee at 1B immediately.

The discussion boiled down to

“Hoffpauir has been on a tear for about 2 years, and considering Lee’s decline, he could/should see an increase in PT at 1B in 2009”,

vs .

"Thats’ silly! He IS A 29 YEAR OLD ROOKIE! Dear MLB please make the Cubs bench Lee, signed the other 29 teams. "

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Mar 19, 2009 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

come up with some new material, please...

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Mar 19, 2009 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

I heard

He was a 29 year old ROOKIE. Can this be confirmed?

by Tate491 on Mar 19, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well

Well some here think 29 old rookies should supplant proven veterans based on having a good spring a couple of years in a row.

These people don’t get why 29 year old rookies are still rookies at 29 years old.

JIXAVERSARY! March 7, 2000 to March 7, 2009. My avatar refers to me participating in the writing challenge and making it~

by puckishcubsfan on Mar 19, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wait, how old is he again?

"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09

by daver on Mar 19, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

why 87 of course. C'mon Daver - do the math...

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Mar 19, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

The thing is, when you started this, I think some of it was out of frustration

That some kept posting the same thing over and over again . . . .

Some of you may recall that a pet peeve of mine is the misuse of the term, “ironic”.

However, . . . .

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Mar 19, 2009 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

for the same reason

others believe a 30 year old rookie should supplant a vet back up catcher.

IMO age has nothing to do with who should and should not play. Those who give us the best chance to win, play them. I do not care if you are a rookie of 75 year vet coming off a monster year.

"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic

by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 19, 2009 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, be that as it may...

…age is still a key factor in how baseball players are projected. (Key word: Projected.) Look no further than the scandal over at the Nationals camp that lost Jim Bowden his job. All things being the same, a 29-year-old prospect (that’s his age, right? can someone confirm, please?) is simply regarded as less valuable than a 23-year-old one.

That said, if Hoffpauir can prove he can bring some of that patented Triple A/Spring Training power to the major leagues then, by all means, he should be given an opportunity to play in some form or another.

"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09

by daver on Mar 19, 2009 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think that anyone's projecting 10 years of greatness for Micah.

But if he turns out to be a guy who shows up in MLB in his late 20’s, and has a few years of good offensive production, I’d much rather that it was the Cubs who got to benefit from those good years.

Phil Nevin, Jack Cust, even John Jaha getting his first shot up in MIL at age 30. Just because someone isn’t a super-blue-chip 20-year old doesn’t mean they’re worthless.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Mar 19, 2009 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Let's talk about the guys you mention.

Nevin’s a special case because he kind of screwed himself with attitude problems, and had to reinvent himself as a catcher and had to go to three different teams before he finally established himself.

Cust, everyone knew he could be a productive hitter because of all the walks he draws. He’s a terrible outfielder. This year, with Frank Thomas retired, I suspect he becomes the fulltime DH. Cust has had two ML years with over 100 walks. Prediction: Micah Hoffpauir won’t walk 100 times in his entire major league career.

John Jaha played a 153-game, 515-AB season with the Brewers at age 27, not 30.

I just don’t see the love for Hoffpauir. To me, he’s just the latest in a long line of Cub minor league sluggers, going all the way back to Karl Pagel, continuing through Ozzie Timmons, Derrick May, Jason Dubois, David Kelton — none of whom had any sort of decent major league career.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Mar 19, 2009 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Dubois I can see.

Dubois remains a bit of a mystery. Why Dusty decided to platoon him with Hollandsworth and Macias, especially during his super-hot start in 2005, I’ll never understand. That being said, he always struck out a lot more than Hoffpauir, at all levels.

Derrick May never hit for power at any level. I don’t think he ever had double-digit HR. Kelton typically hit 15-18 HR a year, but he never coupled that with any kind of batting average and he struck out 120 times a year.

Micah didn’t walk a whole lot last year, but I think that was probably due to the fact that he was hitting everything he saw for extra bases all year.

He had only 17 BB in 2008 (to 46 K), in about 300 AB. In the year prior, he had 24 BB to 34 K, and in 2006, he had 53 BB (a pretty decent total) to 88 K.

Of course, he struck out 24 times in his callups last year, against 6 walks. That will obviously have to improve for him to have any hope of sustained success in MLB…. but his history does not show him to be that far out of whack in his K/BB ratio, ever.

It looks like he became quite a bit more aggressive, while increasing his OBP and decreasing his K numbers, in the last 2 years. I assume that has a lot to do with him suddenly becoming very comfortable at the plate.

Ultimately, I just can’t take a AAA line like .362 / .393 / .752 / 1.145 lightly, even from a 28 year old — especially when the player follows it up with a .342 / .400 / .534 September, and a monster spring training.

Geo Soto had a similar out-of-nowhere explosion in the PCL, and kept hitting in his callup, and never stopped.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Mar 19, 2009 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

IMHO

his walks will increase, and k’s decrease as he learns the pitchers

"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic

by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 19, 2009 11:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

What evidence do you have for that?

Generally, guys who walk a lot at the ML level have learned this in the minors — see Jack Cust’s numbers for a good example.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Mar 20, 2009 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

he walked a decent amount in the minors

and i have a gut feeling about this. sure I can be wrong, but I will roll the dice.

"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic

by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 20, 2009 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

but isn't the sports world

all about “what have you done for me lately” not what you did last year, the yer before, five years ago, or even five years from now?

"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic

by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 19, 2009 11:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hoff walks, over under of 100 for his career

I will bet you $50 donation to Project 3000

"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic

by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 19, 2009 11:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Deal.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Mar 20, 2009 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

can a Hoff "Walk-O-Meter"

be added to the site lol

"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic

by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 20, 2009 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

I could, but...

…. it would hardly ever be updated.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Mar 20, 2009 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ok, just so we're clear on this...

…we’re talking about walks – including intentional ;-) – during the Major League regular and post-season.

With all of BCB as witnesses, I present to you that as of this date, Micah Hoffpauir has exactly six (6) walks at the Major League level, according to his page on baseball-reference.com.

Only 94 to go…

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Mar 20, 2009 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

I am not saying pencil Hoff in for 140 starts

But give the man a chance. He was raking the ball last season while up, and has continued to do so this spring. He has earned that right.

I understand age being a factor, but why does it have to be a more significant factor than his batting average? It is obvious that Lou wants to see how consistent Hoff can be this spring by the 60 ABs he has to lead the team, and he has answered that challenge no doubt. You wish to mention strike outs, which yes it is high, I agree but he is not off pace of Sosa or Soriano during their Cub careers.

Yes he does not walk a lot, but neither did Sosa when you remove the amount of IBB’s he had, but people made excuses for his inability to be a strong defender and hitter until he was 27 and his career really took off, at the age of 30. NO I am not saying he will ever have numbers like Sosa did, do not get me wrong, but it’s a sample to show a late bloomer.

Sosa was the lucky (?) to be on some bad Cubs teams, that let him learn on the job, which Hoff likely would have done if we had similar teams the past few seasons (as DLee likely would not have been resigned or would have been traded).

For another example of a late bloomer, let’s look no further than the A’s rght-hander Brad Ziegler, who began his career as a traditional starting pitcher and made it up to Triple-A, many figured he had hit his peak at AAA and was done. He became a reliever and made his debut last season at age 28. And for the record, he set the American League record for consecutive scoreless innings to start a big league career. Not to shabby for a 28 year old "prospect" if you ask me.

Now there have been quite a few rookies at the age of 30, and none will make you write home, don’t get me wrong, but there were many who stuck around 5+ years, which means that they figured it out enough to be useful, which could very well be the same with Hoff.

And here is the list of the 30 year or old rookies, again I know not the most impressive list, but it proves anything is possible when given the chance.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/lists/rookies30.shtml

"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic

by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 19, 2009 11:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Um...

… that’s kind of a different story, isn’t it?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Mar 19, 2009 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Only by a matter of degrees.

Both of them were very effective, in a “high” minor league, at ages 27 and 28 (and Fukudome at age 29 and 30, too.)

The Japan league may or may not be a higher level of play than AAA, but it’s still not MLB level. And both players were obviously among the elite players in their respective leagues.

Hoffpauir looks for all the world like a classic late bloomer, who suddenly developed a power stroke at age 27. He backed it up, and then some, at AAA at age 28. It may be a total fluke, but those kinds of AAA numbers would make any team take notice.

And when you consider that the Cubs had to invest $48M in Fukudome’s age 31-34 years, while Hoffpauir will cost them the league minimum…. well, I don’t understand the animus toward the 29 YEAR OLD ROOKIE. It’s not like we’re developing a surplus of power bats in the last few decades.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Mar 19, 2009 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think NPB is a higher level than AAA.

And Fukudome was an elite player in his league far longer than Hoffpauir was in his.

Power stroke, maybe. But I’m still not convinced that Hoffpauir won’t strike out once every three AB.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Mar 19, 2009 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Just. Like. Soriano.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Mar 19, 2009 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

but for 17M a season less

"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic

by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 19, 2009 11:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

And with less production.

You two can’t seriously argue that Hoffpauir would be as productive as Soriano with 500+ AB, can you?

That’s just silly.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Mar 20, 2009 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

never know

I am not saying he would, but how can you know without giving some additional AB’s and seeing what happens? A small sample is good but you have to actually let the kid play to know for sure. Otherwise we should just run the stats thru a XBox 360 season on “skip” and crown the champions.

"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic

by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 20, 2009 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Geez

Add an automatic out to the Team USA lineup. Nice.

by BLou on Mar 19, 2009 12:37 PM CDT reply actions  

You must have missed Adam Dunn at first base yesterday.

Saying Dunn is a liability at first base is kind.

But since D-Lee isn’t going to play for team USA, Dunn will likely continue to play 1st base.

It could be very ugly .

Hey, it's a new century!

by cowsarecool220 on Mar 19, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Can't we send the great Micah Hoffpauir there?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Mar 19, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Supposedly DeRosa was going to play first in the semifinals

Despite Cleveland telling Team USA not to play him there.

I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg

by Bill Potter on Mar 19, 2009 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not quite sure why the Tribe are against DeRo playing first base for a whopping 2 games.

It’s not like he’s playing the position for the entire tournament.

Sounds like they need to take a look at the rule for the next classic and expand the provisional roster.

Hey, it's a new century!

by cowsarecool220 on Mar 19, 2009 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Here's part of the problem, and an expanded provisional roster would help

From Tom Verducci’s column:

International baseball regulations require provisional rosters to submitted one month in advance of competition, in part because all such players are subject to international drug testing protocols, including making themselves available at any time to drug testers. Under Johnson’s idea, a player added to the provisional roster this late in the competition would have skirted all drug testing protocols that apply to all other players.

I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg

by Bill Potter on Mar 19, 2009 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wasn't there a much larger pool of provisional players before they were cut down?

And wasn’t D-Lee on that list originally?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Mar 19, 2009 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

He was.

Team USA also has Grady Sizemore, Evan Longoria, Ryan Ludwick and A.J. Pierzynski, among others that they could call up.

But Lee was the only other first baseman on the provisional roster.

I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg

by Bill Potter on Mar 19, 2009 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Umm....

Maybe because DeRo has played 13 ML games at 1B (and none in the minors), and he has been injured twice.

Maybe Cleveland thinks that DeRo is important to them and they don’t want him hurt?

"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007

by DeRoMyHero on Mar 19, 2009 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Interesting read on the current situation of Team USA

Compliments of Yahoo’s Jeff Passan

Join the BCB Flickr Group: http://flickr.com/groups/bleedcubbieblue

by tony412 on Mar 19, 2009 2:22 PM CDT reply actions  

DERREK LEE DECLINES!

DLee-inky

"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09

by daver on Mar 19, 2009 2:28 PM CDT reply actions  

Freudian slip on that comment title?

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Mar 19, 2009 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh my God!

I can’t decide whether to say to myself, “Pound sand!” or “Amen brother!”

"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09

by daver on Mar 19, 2009 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Amen Sand???

He needs to be in Mesa, not farting around in a useless tournament that means nothing.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Mar 19, 2009 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

BLou?

How did you get into Worf’s account?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Mar 19, 2009 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Great minds, Al

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Mar 20, 2009 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

Pound Brother?

"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic

by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 19, 2009 11:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

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Dsc_0139_small David Sameshima

Toonmike_small Mike Bojanowski