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It's A Beautiful Night For A Ball Game

Wrigley lit up with a dramatic sky

photo via cache.daylife.com

There's been some discussion here, and speculation elsewhere, about whether the Cubs, under the upcoming new ownership, might petition the city of Chicago to change the ordinance that now limits them to 30 home night games.

I did a little research into comparisons with what other teams do; the following list is what each team has scheduled for 2009 at home (note: there were a handful of TBD game times, mostly Saturdays and Sundays, which for this purpose are assumed to be day games), listed in order by number of night games:

Rangers: 67 night, 14 day Astros: 62 night, 19 day Marlins: 62 night, 19 day Braves: 61 night, 20 day Rays: 61 night, 20 day Red Sox: 61 night, 20 day Orioles: 60 night, 21 day Dodgers: 59 night, 22 day Padres: 58 night, 23 day Indians: 58 night, 23 day Nationals: 58 night, 23 day Phillies: 57 night, 24 day Pirates: 57 night, 24 day Mariners: 57 night, 24 day Angels: 56 night, 25 day Royals: 55 night, 26 day Reds: 55 night, 26 day D'backs: 55 night, 26 day Twins: 54 night, 27 day Mets: 54 night, 27 day Rockies: 53 night, 28 day Brewers: 53 night, 28 day Cardinals: 53 night, 28 day Giants: 52 night, 29 day A's: 52 night, 29 day White Sox: 52 night, 29 day Tigers: 49 night, 32 day Blue Jays: 48 night, 33 day Yankees: 46 night, 35 day Cubs: 30 night, 51 day

The average number of night games per team including the Cubs is 55; excluding the Cubs' total, the other 29 teams average 56, a little more than 2/3 of their home schedule. Some teams, like the Rangers and Marlins, simply can't play many day games in the summer heat, which is why they have a little more extreme day-game total; at the other end of the list are more traditional, old-line franchises like the Tigers and Yankees (the Toronto total of only 48 night games is a bit of an anomaly). It's only partly about convenience for Cubs players (more on this below).

Here's what this discussion is really about. It's not about game attendance -- the Cubs played to 97.7% of capacity in 2007 and 99.1% in 2008 -- and it's not really about the neighborhood, either, because when push came to shove, the Cubs did get their way when the 2002 ordinance superseded the original 1988 law that at the time limited the Cubs to 18 home night games for the first 15 seasons.

What this is all about is TV ad revenue and ratings; as someone in the TV business, I can speak to that. Obviously, more people are available as eyeballs for TV at night than during the afternoon. Thus, ad rates are higher for night games. Given the need for additional revenue sources, it makes logical sense for the Cubs to increase their night game total, particularly if they are going to, as has been rumored, attempt to start a YES Network style Cubs TV channel. So let's take a look at some of the dilemmas they may encounter.

Point: More night games in April, May and September mean that more families (and college students) could attend, in the time when schools are in session.

Counterpoint: Playing more night games in April, May and September means playing more games in colder weather, less conducive to good production out of your players.

Point: More night games in the summer months are easier on players, because you play fewer games in extreme heat, as well as making it easier returning from long road trips.

Counterpoint: Many people travel during the summer and don't stay home in the evenings to watch TV since it's so nice out.

Point: Related to the previous point, the Cubs occasionally have had to play Friday home day games after Thursday night road games, since the ordinance doesn't permit Friday night home games; this has occasionally forced players to sleep in the clubhouse.

Counterpoint: There isn't one. This is a valid complaint, and one thing the Cubs need to ask for when they ask for more night dates.

Point: Many teams play Saturday night games, but the Cubs are prohibited by ordinance from playing Saturday nights.

Counterpoint: I don't think the Cubs will get anywhere here. In some ways, it doesn't make sense to televise more Saturday night game, because Saturday nights are typically low-rated TV nights, when many people are out and not home watching TV. Second, many of the other Wrigleyville businesses -- particularly Metro Chicago, which books a lot of music acts on Saturday nights, would have their business hurt by Cub Saturday night games (parking issues, especially).

So the bottom line is, I believe that once new ownership takes over, they should and will petition the city to amend the ordinance and allow more night games. The question is, how many more? I think extending the number to 40 -- half the schedule -- would be a fair compromise between everyone who has a stake in this issue. Further, Friday nights should be permitted, as long as those Fridays follow road trip games on Thursdays (it shouldn't even necessarily have to be a Thursday night -- sometimes a long flight back after a Thursday afternoon game can be just as debilitating). With the triangle building likely to be constructed when new ownership takes over, providing the parking spaces that the Cubs promised when the bleachers were expanded, that should help to ease any neighborhood concerns.

40 night dates should be enough to help the Cubs with any team issues, provide 10 more dates' worth of nighttime TV ad revenue, satisfy neighbors' concerns (40 nights a year is a little less than 11% of the calendar year), and still keep enough daytime dates to carry on the Cubs' long daytime baseball tradition.

The game thread for today's spring training game vs. the Diamondbacks will be up at noon CST.

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first again?

night games make it harder for me to see a game. it forces an overnight stay which increases the expenses significantly. I don’t expect this to change anything, it’s merely an observation.

by ballstitch on Mar 2, 2009 8:31 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

It's all business now

As much as I’d personally like to see all 81 games be day games simply because I like the anticipation of the sun, but am willing to deal with other weather (BTW, the NHL Winter Classic wasn’t quite as cold as the 2004 opener, when the Bucs blew out Maddog and the Cubs 13-2).

This is all about revenue. The Cubs mis-spoke a few years ago when they lobbied night games for the reason of in-park attendance increases. Part of that though now is due to a much better team.

It’s ad revenue and…..something else that’s likely going to be in the works that we haven’t talked about as much lately; an all-Cubs TV network, ala the YES-Network the Yankees [the dreaded, evil empire, money grubbing, capitalists] have.

I’m speculating Ricketts and the Cubs will be going forward with “CUBS-TV”. With that comes the need for more night games. And, IMO there’s another intangible here. More night games acclimate players better to what they’ve been used to since low-A ball.

Saturday’s (and many Sunday’s) can stay day games like Al mentioned. It’s one sure way to stay connected with Wrigley’s roots. And especially since they’re hot recently, there will be the impetus for more FOX national games, even though many of us loathe their broadcasts.

I’d much rather see increased revenue generation from more night games than “Under Armour” outfield doors, defacing of almost-looks-original-brick behind the plate & down the LF line and most worse of anything that could happen: Video Board(s).

The Cubs have to pull out all the stops in lieu of real skyboxes. Regardless of how bad the economy is and will continue to be for the next 18 months or so, it will get better, things will turn around. The Cubs must position themselves as best as possible if anyone is going to want to stay in that fabled old ballpark significantly past its 100-year anniversary.

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Mar 2, 2009 8:45 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

if CUBS-TV does happen

Erin Andrews better be on it.

There's nothing wrong with this team that more pitching, more fielding and more hitting couldn't help......"--Bill Buckner

by laidbackliam on Mar 2, 2009 1:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

GOTTA AGREE

With ballstitch alot fans can attend a day games . But the price of a hotel room and a couple of meals out makes it hard for these folks to attend night games . Also Senior Citizens don’t like to be out at night thats why they head to day games …..But on the other side the Cubs need the revenue from night games….Go Figure…..

by cubs north on Mar 2, 2009 9:11 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Lift Ban of Friday Night Games

I’d like to see the overall limit on night games raised to 36, but I would also like to see the ban on Friday night regular season home games lifted. I’d like see the Cubs play 6 Friday night home games. Fans from far away could take Friday off of work, get up at a decent hour and drive 8 hours to Chicago, if necessary, to see a night game on a Friday. Having some Friday night games would take care of the “play on a Thursday night in St. Pete, play on a Friday afternoon in Chicago problem” that cropped up last season.
 
 I think if you go over about 36 night home games in a regular season that you are taking too much away from the daytime baseball tradition at Wrigley. I don’t believe that daytime tradition has had a negative effect on team performance or revenue in recent years.

"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Mar 2, 2009 9:12 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

The Friday night thing is almost mandatory...

… from a competitive standpoint.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 2, 2009 9:19 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Opposition?

Wouldn’t the relevant neighborhood associations object very strongly to the addition of Friday and Saturday games? I would guess that the opposition to that proposal would be much louder than if the Cubs simply wanted to add, say, a dozen games on the currently permissible nights. On top of that, I can see the City government being opposed to this too, as they would have to pay even more police overtime than for a weeknight game, and probably deal with more complaints too.

If anything, the businesses around the park would largely be in support of Friday/Saturday games as that would mean better/longer business days for them, with lots of people hanging around until closing time. Despite Al’s speculation, I can’t imagine the Metro being too concerned as parking near Wrigley is pretty tough on Saturday night, as it is.

Another alternative would be for the Cubs to request permission to schedule 3:00 games on Fridays, as they did before the lights were installed. That’s would still be a day game after a night road game, but the extra two hours would help and the local residents wouldn’t be as likely to blow a gasket and dig in against the proposal.

"Some people will look at a glass of water and say it's half-empty, while another guy will look at it and say it's half-full. A Cubs fan looks at the same glass and asks, "When's it gonna spill?" - Mike Royko

by LaddieRenfroe on Mar 2, 2009 9:45 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think adding BOTH Fridays and Saturdays would be too much.

I think Fridays (only after road trips, which would probably mean 6-7 Fridays a year) would work.

The reason the 3:05 games were nixed is that the neighborhood people complained that traffic leaving the area during rush hour on a Friday made getting home impossible. They had a point.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 2, 2009 10:01 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure I follow your logic for Fridays...

If the only problem with Friday day baseball is day games after a Thursday night game, why not just ask to reschedule the Thursday game to an afternoon game on the road? Plenty of teams play day baseball on “getaway day”. More importantly, this season there are ZERO times where the Cubs play a Friday day home game after a Thursday road night game. Is it really worth changing the agreement with the community over possible rescheduled rainouts?

Also, as others have mentioned, none of the reasons you mention for Saturday evening games not working (low tv viewership, crowded Wrigleyville neighborhood, events/Metro) that wouldn’t apply to Friday as well.

I guess, in short, I don’t understand how Friday night games gives the team a competative advantage versus the efforts it would take to get them added.

by MarchHare on Mar 2, 2009 10:37 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Because why should the Cubs' situation...

… force the OTHER team to change their game time?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 2, 2009 10:40 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, I think get away days

should ALWAYS be day games for all teams. There started to be exceptions for national tv games and now it seems to have gotten out of control with some teams (such as Rays) only scheduling night games during the week.

Hey, it's a new century!

by cowsarecool220 on Mar 2, 2009 10:42 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree, but that's not the reality

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Mar 2, 2009 10:49 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree too.

If you could have this codified, maybe even put in the Basic Agreement, that’d be helpful for all teams, not just the Cubs.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 2, 2009 12:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The home team schedules game times at their own discretion

And aren’t going to be likely to accomodate others.

As far as the effort vs. competitive advantage — the PLAYERS won’t be expending the effort to get the Friday night games, but they’d reap the benefits.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Mar 2, 2009 10:41 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I forgot home teams completely control non-Fox/ESPN times...

…although I still think it’s a big fight for new ownership over a situation which doesn’t occur a single time in 2009, barring makeup games. Particularly for an evening which doesn’t generate great tv ratings in an already overcrowded neighborhood.

Eh, maybe it’s more important than I give it credit for.

by MarchHare on Mar 2, 2009 10:55 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, it does come into play in other years

Without looking at other schedules, I’d be willing to bet that this year’s is very unusal in the sense that there is only 1 Friday home game following a Thursday road game. That’s not likely to be the norm.

It depends on how much they have to fight, and if they can dedicate resources to doing so.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Mar 2, 2009 10:59 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree that it could be a factor, but...

I don’t have a 2007 or 2008 schedule handy, but in 2004 there was only one scheduled Thursday night away/Friday day home scheduled (April 22 @ PIT 6:05 & April 23 vs Mets 2:20), but the Thursday game was rained out and this scenario never took place (the reschedule was a Friday double-header after an off day on Thursday). The rest of 2004 as well as 2005 & 2006 had no scheduled evening Thursday games on the road followed by Friday day games at home. None.

Again, it can be a factor to the players, but it also could be just an excuse. From the four years of schedules I’ve seen it’s never once been a factor. Nor do I see it really effecting the bottom line with revenues to make up for the effort it would take as well as the inconvenience to the neighborhood. I don’t know much about sponsorship deals, though, so the primetime Friday evening slot could be a bigger attraction than I give it credit for. Someone who does tv marketing might be able to correct me if I’m way off base on this.

I should mention, though, that I know several people who used to work at Metro who dreaded the idea of Friday/Saturday night games when they had their bigger concerts, so I’ve probably been made baised against the idea :)

by MarchHare on Mar 2, 2009 11:18 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Out of curiosity

Can you look at the skeds you do have, and see how many Thursday afternoon games on the road preceded Friday home games? And, how many of those involved longer flights (i.e. Atlanta, Houston, California, etc.)?

Those could be games where it would be nice to have a Friday night game.

I can understand the potential bias that you mention, but . . . if it would be a significant help to the team (and I don’t know for sure that it would), I’d be in favor of it.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Mar 2, 2009 12:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

more interesting and not something i am about to look for while I am at work

is how many of our opponents have the Thrusday Night / Friday Day schedule vs our totals as well.

"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic

by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 2, 2009 12:53 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No problem.

In 2004, we never played a team outside the NL Central before a Friday day game, unless we were on a homestand. Ditto in 2005.

In 2006, we played Frisco at 2:35 before flying home for a 1:20 against San Diego on Friday. We lost both games (in part of a 7-22 month). Otherwise, 2006 was like 2004/2005.

This season the furthest we come from is Houston. Again, I’m not sure about 2007 & 2008, as I don’t have it at-hand (I used to have season schedules printed out at my desk that I held onto, but since 2007 I’ve had a smaller bulletin board which only has work-related items—and I don’t know what happened to the ones I had before 2004).

If it would help the team, I would definitely be on board. I just don’t think it’s as big a deal as I’ve heard people make it out to be. That SanFran to Wrigley trip would have been rough, though, even with a getaway day game. It would definitely make it harder on some local businesses/residences, though, and I want to make sure there’s a tangible benefit before we go advocating it. That’s my main position, for what it’s worth.

by MarchHare on Mar 2, 2009 1:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh...

…and for reference, I didn’t consider any of the NL Central to be long flights, even Houston. In my company, we routinely have had to take day-trips to Houston and it’s not that bad, quite honestly. Of course, I don’t have to play a full 9 innings….

If you count Houston as a long flight, we had one instance of Houston to Wrigley this season, and one in ’04, but none in ’05 or ’06.

For what it’s worth….

by MarchHare on Mar 2, 2009 1:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Flying from Houston...

… is about like flying from Denver or New York, so IMO your limiting this to divisional opponents doesn’t take into account the fact that Houston is about as close to Chicago as some other NON divisional opponents.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 2, 2009 1:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Point taken...

…but we’re still looking at only three instances of games in Houston or further on a Thursday (all day games) before a Friday home game in four years. Add in the one Pittsburgh night game in 2004 and that’s only four relevant games in the four years I had quick data for. Is one game a season, on average, worth a ordinance change? My opinion is still no, but I might be overestimating the resistance to this. If the locals don’t care, I don’t care.

by MarchHare on Mar 2, 2009 1:53 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for taking a look

I would have lost money on that — would have expected the number to be higher.

So, maybe a negotiating point is that they can get two or three Friday night games per year, if and only if the scenario that we’re talking about presents itself.

An additional 5-10 games to the 30 allowed would easily clear up any other day games following night getaway games or day getaway games with long flights.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Mar 2, 2009 2:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Right.

I do think the Cubs should have the right to, 6-7 times a year, start a Friday homestand with a night game, regardless of where they are coming from.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 2, 2009 2:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's a big number just for Fridays, Al

Most years are going to have only 2-4 homestands starting on Friday. This year has 3.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Mar 2, 2009 2:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

OK...

… then allow them 5 of those, and 5 other “extra” night games, for a total of 40.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 2, 2009 2:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough.

If they can work something out, I have no problems with more night games. I’d be able to watch more games (both in person and on tv) that way and not rely strictly on the radio (which I can’t follow all that closely at work, obviously). My beef is that I don’t buy into the argument that it puts the team at a serious competative disadvantage—it reeks of an excuse without solid footing. As I’ve said, I could be grossly underestimating how hard this is on the players, but that’s for someone else to prove.

Oh, and no problem Shanghai Badger. I’ve had software problems all day, so looking this up has kept off some of the frustration :)

by MarchHare on Mar 2, 2009 2:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Friday Nights

From the Neighborhood Association’s point of view, I can completely understand the ban on Friday night games. Wrigleyville on a Friday/Saturday night is usually a pretty ridiculous place, as is, let alone combining that with everything that goes on during a Cubs game. This would become a HUGE drinking event. I can understand the concerns of the Association, but then again, you live in Wrigleyville, you already put up with a lot of that sort of thing.

I think that the combination of the two would actually be worse for the bar owners around Wrigley on a Friday. If there is a Friday day game, they get revenue from the Cubs game drinkers and then the Friday night drinkers. If you combine the two, you are loosing out on your bar being packed during the day. Sure you’ll have increased numbers at night, but bars are only so big.

by steinmer on Mar 2, 2009 9:59 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

A transition to the level of the Yankees

46 night games…..or 16 more games would be a good transition with a cap of let say 52 (White Sox), this will put the Cubs a little over half to almost 60% of their home games under the lights.

It has always been about business and eyeballs….come on….

I look at it as a product thing, a eyeball thing, a revenue thing and a team competitive thing.

Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."

by Ivy Walls on Mar 2, 2009 9:17 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Well put Ivy

You don’t have to sell me on that. Unfortunently not everyone agrees this is a business first.

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Mar 2, 2009 10:41 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with it.

Some do think that players and owners are in it to provide us with entertainment . . . not the case.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Mar 2, 2009 10:42 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

IMO entertainment

is third behind

Salary/Revenue
Endorsements

"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic

by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 2, 2009 11:00 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If Salaries Weren't Out of Control...

If salaries weren’t out of control, all costs would come down, right? Ad revenue wouldn’t need to be a focus because it would cost less to buy time if other costs were lower… Regardless of whether or not it’s a day game or a night game, the cost of getting a hot dog, a beer, a bag of chips on top of the cost of the ticket is stupidly prohibitive. Bring down the player’s salaries (why does Manny need to fight $10 million up front money? I don’t get it), bring down ticket prices, put a great product on the field and enjoy the games again… that’s what I’d like to see. As for night games, I think adding more is a mistake (call me a sentimentalist – the Cubs should be playing day ball). As for the players sleeping in the clubhouse? That’s too freakin’ bad… they’re getting paid to do their jobs, so do the job for six months, find ways to work through the energy lulls and stop complaining.

by dromain67 on Mar 2, 2009 9:26 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

So if you had a chance to make more money

you would turn down the opportunity to take that chance?!

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Mar 2, 2009 9:32 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't assume that costs would come down if salaries did.

Once you make money, it’s tough to give it up.

You’re right that they are paid to do their jobs. However, it is undoubtedly true that on some level, playing fewer home night games than other teams might put the Cubs at a competitive disadvantage. In baseball, as in any business, you’d think you’d want to give your employees any competitive advantage you could.

I’m a traditionalist too. In my perfect world, the Cubs would play 81 home day games. But I understand that’s not a possibility any more. This isn’t 1950 — it’s 2009. Reality is different now, and to be competitive on many levels, the Cubs need to play more home night games.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 2, 2009 9:36 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Costs and salaries will more likely plateau for a while.

Fall? I don’t think so.

I agree with your notions, Al, and as a guy who’s never yet been to a night game at Wrigley I have to say it’s all about the real concern – the business of baseball in the 21st Century.

As for Laddie’s concerns about neighborhood associations, remember, this is Chicago we’re talking about. How much of their “property values” are due to their proximity to Wrigley in the first place?

Where there’s a will, and a business case, there’s a way.

by MN exile on Mar 2, 2009 10:03 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh my, you had to go there

There is a very spirited discussion about that here. Click link.

"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."

by flachimesa on Mar 2, 2009 10:14 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks but no thanks.

I’m hundreds of miles away. For me it’s an academic discussion, somewhat informed by the fact that I grew up in Tom Keane’s 31st Ward during the days of Daley the Elder.

by MN exile on Mar 2, 2009 11:07 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No offense intended

But this is pretty naive.

Why should players agree to lower salaries if owners are willing to pay higher salaries?
Why should owners lower ticket prices if fans are willing to pay higher ones?

The comment about the job — well, you can pay someone $25,000,000 but that doesn’t change physiology. Anyone who says they should just be able to suck it up and find a way to compete while 29 other teams don’t have to has never been in a situation like that.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Mar 2, 2009 10:01 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

A poor analogy on the physiology

Let’s say you work 8 to 5 in an office. You are paid for performance, as are your peers — you all draw from a pool of money each year that is allocated for merit increases.

However, your peers get to sleep whenever they want. You are told that you can only pick your own sleeping patterns 50% of the time. For the rest of the time, you can only sleep from 7 PM to 9 PM, then again from 2 AM to 6 AM. Yet, your performance will be judged the same as your peers.

Does that sound fair?

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Mar 2, 2009 10:08 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

To Make More Money

Would I turn down the opportunity to make more money? Depends on how much I was already making. If I’ve got a player’s salary and I’m making $10 million a year, what the hell do I need with another $5 million? I can live on $10 million for a few years and be very comfortable the rest of my life! If I’m making $100k and struggling to pay the mortgage and the credit card debt, then no – I wouldn’t turn down the money. My thought is that the players should be paid on a performance basis… base salary and spiffs based on performance. Nobody – and I mean NOBODY – ‘deserves’ to make the kind of money sports stars are making. As I’ve mentioned before, though, we, as ticket-holders, are the idiots who provide the salaries to these babies…

by dromain67 on Mar 2, 2009 9:38 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

You live within your means

Those who make more money buy nicer things, live in nicer communities, may have several homes, etc.

As my income increased, I did the same thing. When I was young, I thought $100,000 was a lot of money. Now I think $1,000,000 is a lot of money. I would think millionaires would think $45M is a lot….or not, according to Manny.

"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."

by flachimesa on Mar 2, 2009 9:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No, of course no one "deserves" that kind of money.

However, no one is holding a gun to anyone’s head forcing them to pay these salaries, either.

Looking at it from an average person’s standpoint, yes, what does the $10m player need with another $5m? But they don’t see it that way.

Your idea about performance based incentives isn’t unreasonable, but it will never happen.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 2, 2009 10:03 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

They deserve to try to get what they can get

in a free market capitalist society, Al. I’m envious of those players, you bet I am. But I am not angry with them nor am I vilifying them for their financial success. I aspire to be as financially set as they are – though through different means – and that is the beauty of being in America, the freedom to be what I can be.

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Mar 2, 2009 10:09 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not saying they don't deserve to try...

… and you’re right, everyone in this country tries to maximize his/her income, or at least aspires to be the best they can be at whatever they do.

It does seem, as in the case we are currently seeing regarding Manny Ramirez, that greed beyond simple “getting what you can get” is at work. That’s what I, and others, object to.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 2, 2009 10:14 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's the system that enables it

It isn’t Manny Ramirez. He’s only a by-product of a system that creates the situation.

We’ve all talked about Boras and I think he’s an a-hole for his tactics like right now with Ramirez (Manny’s arrogance certainly doesn’t help) but he’s operating within the confines of the system, just like the evil empire; I mean NY Yankees.

It’s the argument that “he/she makes too much” or “this company makes too much” or “how dare they profit so” pisses me off to no end. This constant rant for salary suppression, spreading the wealth and taxing the living crap out of the prosperous is exactly what kicks the living crap out of any economy. It’s been proven time and time again.

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Mar 2, 2009 10:24 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think we should stop here before this devolves into political discussion.

Thanks.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 2, 2009 10:25 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

OK, fine

But let me know your thoughts on my statements about Manny and Boras. Don’t you think it’s the MLB system that enables that?

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Mar 2, 2009 10:26 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

In part, sure it does.

They’re running into trouble now because the owners aren’t buying it any more.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 2, 2009 10:29 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Salaries Are All Relative

I imagine that a major leaguer “only” making $2 million a year doesn’t feel being rich around others who make over $10 million a year. It’s not that I am exactly crying about the “poor” $2 million/year player. I can understand why that player might bristle at being called “rich”. Of course, most of us wish we could be that “rich”.

"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Mar 2, 2009 10:23 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

While you're entitled to your opinion

This isn’t reality, and Al is talking about generating revenue in the world that we live.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Mar 2, 2009 10:03 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The $100k, mortgage and CC debt is an interesting topic

What happened to the personal responsibility (flachimesa put it as living within your means) that comes with your salary, your home and your debt in general?

The whole idea of the “American dream” of owning a home has been totally distorted into being an “American right” and is a fundamental component of the housing crisis we see right now.

When I was a kid, 6-figures was big, but now it’s 7-figures that’s bigger.

You’re views on the players and others of high salaries are corrupt for a capitalist society. No one should be held down in salary as a means to satisfy others. It flys in the face of the founding fathers and the constitution and something I call Communism.

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Mar 2, 2009 10:06 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You're For Communism? Really?

Your last sentence makes it sound like you’re lumping the Constitution and Communism together…

I know you’re not saying that those go together and I hear your argument about capitalism.

My simple point is that salaries have gotten out of control and that there are those of us who work twice as much as the players do and earn a small percentage. Yes, that’s comparing apples to wood chips – I get that. I get it, too, that incentive-based play isn’t a reality. What strikes me, though, is the sense of entitlement which seems to come with the higher salaries. The suites at the hotels when pitchers are on the road, not traveling at all when a pitcher isn’t scheduled, the things which management gives outside of the salaries to please the egos of these babies.

So, again, who needs another $5 million if the owners are going to give incentives? See, the structure is there already – let them PLAY for those incentives…

by dromain67 on Mar 2, 2009 10:12 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Re-read it

that last paragraph in my post above.

The players earn their salary because they are a very, very small percentage of the population that could do what they do. What all of us can do, can be done by many times more other folks.

Yeah, the salaries are high, you’re totally correct and yeah it can be bad for some people to absorb. I tend to aspire to a higher salary myself rather than getting PO’d at players.

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Mar 2, 2009 10:16 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Great point.

"That's what you live for. You live for the opportunity and when that day comes, you better be ready," Soto said. "I tried to make sure that whenever they gave me a chance, I was ready and I knew I had to take advantage of the opportunity."

by Madison Cub Fan on Mar 2, 2009 10:41 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I tend to aspire...

…to a higher salary, as well… That’s why I’ve got a full-time job and 2 part-time jobs. I’m as much a capitalist as the next guy. I want my small, home-based business to earn as much as it can, so I charge for those services.

It’s not Communism to teach humility. It IS greed, though, to say, "I deserve more money simply because I’m (insert famous name).

by dromain67 on Mar 2, 2009 10:46 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Good, glad to hear it

…and I honestly hope you succeed in the home business; always been rather fond of the niche’ that can be yet so profitable.

On the greed, its not their name as much as what they can do.

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Mar 2, 2009 10:52 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Your arguments for getting more people in the seats

College students, people who have families, etc are legit ones. But in the past 2-3 years the Cubs have never had a problem filling the seats. Thats something Chicago does really well: support their teams. Well, unless that teams is located in an area where you can hear gun shots during the seventh inning stretch

"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher

by Musicdude10 on Mar 2, 2009 9:50 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Which is why I made this as a point/counterpoint.

The issue isn’t filling the seats, as you point out. The issue is TV ratings.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 2, 2009 10:03 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Which can be renovated and updated to be financially competitive.

More night games means more TV revenue no matter where they play.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 2, 2009 10:15 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The biggest renovation they can do

is real skyboxes; where they can generate revenue far and away more than they’re doing right now.

Short of a YES-Network type of operation, skyboxes (my UC example / rant) has to be the number one renovation.

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Mar 2, 2009 10:17 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And that may happen.

Both the TV network and more skyboxes/club seating.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 2, 2009 10:25 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I hope so

Not that I plan as of right now to get into that, but then again…

15-25 years ago when I had Section X mezzanine ST’s at Chicago Stadium for the Blackhawks, I would have never thought I’d be a ST holder of “club seats” at some state-of-the-art, mall-with-an-ice-rink-in-the-middle arena either. Things change.

They are going to need a serious skybox overhaul if you, me and millions of others want them to stay there until we’re all [really] old and gray.

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Mar 2, 2009 10:29 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Skyboxes aren't the only way to do this...

… especially in today’s corporate market, where companies are probably pulling back from spending thousands of dollars on entertainment like this.

They may try some kind of club seating (similar to the AAA Club in San Francisco, or the Scout Seats at the Cell).

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 2, 2009 10:30 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Today's market is just that

today’s…Staying away from the discussion you don’t want me or anyone to get into, the economy will change, Al. It will be tough and like I mentioned before I’m more pessimistic than others. But things will shift more positively in 3, 4 perhaps even as long as 5 years from now, much more positively.

And it would do the Cubs a world of good to be ready for when the economy recovers, not wait until it did then make the changes. I think the grand plan for 2014 – the 100th anniversary of Wrigley Field – is almost perfect timing. It’s just how Ricketts and company will go about it. I for one will be excited to see how things evolve. I’m fairly sure the Cubs won’t abandon Wrigley like the Blackhawks did Chicago Stadium (although the situations were notably different).

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Mar 2, 2009 10:35 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Now I think we have found common ground.

I’m in agreement with what you’ve written here.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 2, 2009 10:41 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

One look at Stubhub should tell the Cubs they are not charging enough for tickets

Ouch….did I just say that?

Shoot me now….but the aftermarket for Cubs tickets is sky-high. If the Cubs wanted, they could charge $70-$90 for a bleacher seat for Premium Games and sell out.

Yes, this could cut out the “loyal” Cub fan. Yes, the loyals would strongly protest, but many “ticket buyers” are reaching into the Cubs’ pockets and taking what would be profits away from the Cubs by selling their tickets at a premium price.

Personally, I think the Cubs would cut their throats if they did this, but the point still stands….others are profiting from reselling tickets.

"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."

by flachimesa on Mar 2, 2009 10:07 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Supply and Demand

If the prices went up, sales would probably go down. There would be more on the aftermarket, and then those prices would go down.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Mar 2, 2009 10:09 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yup you did and no way should you be shot

Of course our comments are tongue-in-cheek, but you’re correct in general. Don’t think for one minute they don’t carefully put these pricing plans in place, especially with the 2nd highest median ticket prices in MLB.

The problem is our fellow-non-capitalist Cubs’ fans won’t agree.

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Mar 2, 2009 10:12 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The question is...

… how many of thse Stubhub listings are actually selling? Maybe the market is priced too high this year.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 2, 2009 10:15 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Or how many of these Stubhub tickets are owned by...errr...the Cubs....I mean....Premium Tickets

“the only licensed ticket broker endorsed by the Chicago Cubs.” source

BTW, does the Tribune Company still own Premium Tickets?

"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."

by flachimesa on Mar 2, 2009 10:25 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

As far as I know, yes it does.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 2, 2009 10:25 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's why they got in bed with Stubhub.......

so they can track what the market will bear and raise prices accordingly

If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.

by Clutche on Mar 2, 2009 10:34 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's all of MLB

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Mar 2, 2009 10:48 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

tickets can keep going up in price and I will keep buying them and going to the games. there is nothing like Wrigley in the bleachers in the Summer

www.wrigleyexpansion.com

by drodd on Mar 2, 2009 10:31 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Well - radio ads count too...

“Counterpoint: Many people travel during the summer and don’t stay home in the evenings to watch TV since it’s so nice out.”

Good point, but people take radios with them, and listen in their cars – not to mention all of the way tavern owners tout HD monitors in their establishments – getting back to the TV side.

by The E-Man on Mar 2, 2009 10:40 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

True.

But radio revenue isn’t anywhere near what TV revenue is.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 2, 2009 10:41 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, they count

they won’t crap all over them, but $1 you get in radio is likely will be met with $10-$15 in TV.

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Mar 2, 2009 10:43 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yep. True...

But it is a rare night out nowadays where there are no monitors in our bars or restaurants. So, weekend night outs are still valuable ad nights.

by The E-Man on Mar 2, 2009 10:46 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

and they will continue to leverage it until it's no longer

a black number on the ledger. As long as the ROI is positive enough and the PnL’s look nice, it will continue to be used.

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Mar 2, 2009 10:54 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

A little off-topic but along these lines, the Brewers set single-day ticket sales record

selling 104,000 tickets on Saturday, setting a franchise record for the number of tickets sold in a single day.

Cubs and White Sox games are sold out.

In addition, the team announced that six games were already sold out for individual game tickets. This marks the first time in team history that a regular season game other than opening day has sold out on the first day of availability. The games that are sold out are April 10 and 11 versus the Chicago Cubs, May 8, 9 and 10 versus the Cubs and June 13 versus the Chicago White Sox.

source

"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."

by flachimesa on Mar 2, 2009 10:40 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

The Brewers are cashing in on last year's playoff appearance.

It may be different later in the year if they fall flat, which, without top starting pitching, they might.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 2, 2009 10:42 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm too lazy to do the math....how many of the 104,000

are for the Cubs and White Sox games?

"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."

by flachimesa on Mar 2, 2009 10:44 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The Brewers had a pre-sale

earlier in the week of their premium tickets. Those dates were the Cub and White Sox dates. I would imagine that allowed those games to be sold out on opening day as most of the tickets had already been sold.

Hey, it's a new century!

by cowsarecool220 on Mar 2, 2009 10:47 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Mu guess its a significant percentage

including lot’s of Cubs fans; wink, wink.

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Mar 2, 2009 10:54 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Pretty impressive for a small market

about 1/5th of the Cubs’ tally I heard about on 2/20; very impressive.

How a team’s ability to play games #163+ affects the next season, eh$

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Mar 2, 2009 10:45 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Cubs network

I wonder how much this scenario affects the situation. If there was a CUBS Tv, wouldn’t you expect it to play an afternoon game live and then again at 7 or 8 central time that night? This would likely increase viewership for the game, both from people who would watch because it was on at night and those who listened to the game at work and then watched it at night (double advertising opportunities).

by TC Cubby on Mar 2, 2009 11:31 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Not quite double

Because not as many people will watch the rebroadcast. Especially if it’s a “nothing special” game.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Mar 2, 2009 12:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Right, but...

… for those who can’t watch a day game when they’re at work, doing something like that obviates the need to DVR the game.

CSN already does this for a lot of Cubs games.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 2, 2009 12:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If I wanted to watch a game that I knew the result of

I’d DVR it and fast forward thru the lulls. Hell, even if I didn’t know the result, I’d ff thru the comercials, instead of watching a rebroadcast.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Mar 2, 2009 12:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I live in Des Moines, IA so not much familiar

with why there’s an ordinance anyway. Is it the neighborhood that doesn’t like night games? If so, what’s the issue?

by Cubs and Hawks fan on Mar 2, 2009 11:38 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

It goes back to the days before lights

When the Trib bought the Cubs, they wanted lights . . . but the neighborhood didn’t, and banded together to get a thinly-veiled ordinance passed that applied only to Wrigley Field.

As part of the agreement in 1987 to allow lights, the Cubs were granted 8 games in 1988 and 18 thereafter, including 2 Saturday night games and no Friday night games. As the limit grew, the Cubs gave up the right to Saturday night games and 3:05 Friday afternoon games.

Without going too deep into politics and my distaste for corrupt mayors, it’s hard to change much with Soxie in City Hall.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Mar 2, 2009 12:22 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I found this a reasonable, nicely balanced assessment of the situation, Al.

And, yes, I’d like to see a marginal increase in the number of night games as well. I think it would make the team more competitive and, quite frankly, I think the number of night games will inevitably increase at some point anyway.

My sig line is out for jury duty.

by dat cubfan daver on Mar 2, 2009 11:55 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

not exactly on topic

But do you Al, or anyone have a hi-res version of the picture used for this post??? Have to say its one of the best I’ve seen

Thanks

by heine41 on Mar 2, 2009 12:38 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

You could check the website from where it came...

… and ask them. I did a quick Google to find a night shot of Wrigley that I could use, that was the best one that I found. The link is on the photo.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 2, 2009 12:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you!

 I will be stopping by to meet you this summer finally, I intended to all last summer, but never got bleacher seats

by heine41 on Mar 2, 2009 1:11 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

38 now going up to 46

As I’ve gotten older, I actually prefer night games. Not just at Wrigley, but on the road as well.

I think going to 38 in 2010, 42 in 2013, and 46 in 2016 is reasonable. There should be a limit each month of either 2 Fridays or 1 Friday and 1 Saturday, team’s choice depending on the schedule. Adding in those 12 games on top of the current 30 would get them to 42, so asking them to give up 4 other weeknight games for the next three years is a reasonable compromise.

It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??

by Invalid User on Mar 2, 2009 1:17 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

First time poster, long time fan.

I think the discrepency between day and night games is the main culprit for the Cubs futility. Actually, it’s probably more mental than physical rest that causes problems. I realize my post has nothing to do with the above blog, but I wanted to put in my two cents!

"I'm not so mean. I wouldn't ever go out to hurt anybody deliberately - unless it was, you know, important, like a league game or something." - Dick Butkus

by propheteer on Mar 2, 2009 5:49 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Elia said it best ...

“What the (redacted) am I supposed to do, go out there and let my (redacted) players get destroyed every day and be quiet about it? For the (redacted) nickel-dime people who turn up? The (redacted) don’t even work. That’s why they’re out at the (redacted) game. They oughta go out and get a (redacted) job and find out what it’s like to go out and earn a (redacted) living. Eighty-five percent of the (redacted) world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A (redacted) playground for the (redacted).”

indeed it is … I like the day games.

by junkhorse on Mar 2, 2009 8:50 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

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