who is your most frustratng Cub?
by fischisgod on Mar 25, 2009 9:06 AM CDT
212 comments
I think the question is pretty self evident but was just wondering who yall thought was the cub that left you scratching your head more often than not. The answer to me is #22. I have the tribune hanging on my wall from the day he arrived and the day after he punched out ten helpless pirats n six innings. I just loved the guy. He was dominant. I just dont get what happened to him... I think it was the hawpe liner off the elbow. I was at the ame and i have never heard something ike that... i jsut really hope he pitches again. He was that good.. Just think of our rotation if Prior never got hurt.... We would have commited a lot of money to him..
Its obvio that i am frutrated with Mark what about yall?
I really hope Strasburg works out. Kid is too good and people are saying he is better than Prior. Nats are lucky...
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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I think you're right about the Hawpe line drive.
Things like that can make you subtly alter your delivery and cause injury. It happened to Dizzy Dean in the 1930’s when a line drive broke his toe in the All-Star game. He came back too soon and hurt his elbow.
In Prior’s case when that injury occurred, we thought it would be season-ending, instead he was back in four weeks. In retrospect, they should have ended his season then and had him come back in 2006.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 25, 2009 9:15 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
yea i looked at my mother and said thats it. He is done..
i thought for sure he was out for the year… he pitchd way too soon
4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42
by fischisgod on Mar 25, 2009 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well he kind of had too since everyone was calling him a wuss
by Bleeding Cubbie Blue on Mar 25, 2009 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kyle Farnsworth
I thought he would be in the same class of Cubs closers as Bruce Sutter, Lee Smith, and Randy Myers. He never became the closer in the first place. That blazing fastball wasn’t enough to make him the star I thought he would be. Terry Adams is another pitcher I thought would be a great Cubs closer. Farnsworth underachieved.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Mar 25, 2009 9:35 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
At least he was memorable with that football tackle on Paul Wilson
by Bleeding Cubbie Blue on Mar 25, 2009 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Image credit: znohitter
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 25, 2009 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Soriano
He is one of the most streaky players I have ever seen. When he is hot, there are few in the same world as him, but when he is cold, it is almost painful to watch.
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 25, 2009 9:48 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
Sori can dazzle you with his home runs and sicken you by striking out on pitches nowhere near the strike zone. He can dazzle you with tremendous throws from left field to gun down baserunners and sicken you by getting poor jumps on balls that other leftfielders can catch. It’s a love-hate relationship.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Mar 25, 2009 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
its as if we are all battered housewifes
he makes the same mishaps over and over, always apologizes, says it wont happen anymore, then does it again, and we keep coming back with open arms thanking him and asking for more
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 25, 2009 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes...
It’s EXACTLY like being a battered wife.
Just when I thought you had passed your lowest point, you keep finding new depths.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Mar 25, 2009 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what?
Worf agreeing with me?
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 25, 2009 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
I cannot believe you missed the blatant sarcasm in his post. And it was well-deserved on your part.
Free Ronny Cedeno
by Kansas25 on Mar 25, 2009 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the sarcasm in mine as well is lost?
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 25, 2009 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sarcasm
is only detectable when you believe the person has a minimum amount of intelligence — the level it takes to avoid pooping on oneself, basically.
Since we’re not sure you have that level of intelligence, we are not always accurate when judging whether you are sarcastic.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Mar 25, 2009 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
how about you do me a favor
since all you like to do is try to get under my skin, for no known reason, stop replying to anything i post. I could post that the sky is blue, and you would argue that is it not blue. I do not know why you have this sadness and hatred like I dumped you and broke your heart, but maybe you should seek therapy to get over it.
you are a waste of a post on the site too often, with nothing more than a negative attitude towards life. it is as if each morning someone pisses in your Cheerios, and you come here looking to take revenge for it.
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 25, 2009 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I couldn't care less
What color the sky is in your world.
But how’s about you stop comparing rooting for a player who strikes out to getting beaten by a husband?
Do that and I’ll leave you alone.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Mar 25, 2009 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When asked for my opinon
I will state it, which is exactly what I did. Sorry for not getting your approval first.
You act as if this is the first time you directly looked for a way to attack my post, which is anything but true, including when you said you would trade me for a win (which was funny, but also uncalled for).
This is not the first time I have asked you to not reply to mine for the exact same reason as well, which you seem to misunderstand as an invite to you acting like a bad penny which just won’t go away.
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 25, 2009 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it's not the first time
But I had made an effort to ignore you, not because you asked, but because it was no longer amusing me to verbally take you to the woodshed.
But you’ve been called on your offensive comment, and not just by me. That tells me that you either a) truly believe making fun of battered wives is OK or b) just so reflexively bristle at what I say that you can’t see it.
Either way, you’ve got a serious problem. I could be as cheerful as a new puppy and I’d still call you on it.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Mar 25, 2009 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
for you to be upset about something i said
is the exact definition of irony
and i have been asked about my opinions and where i base things, can you show me where someone (not named Worf) took offense to anything i said in the past?
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 25, 2009 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
scroll up
Look for Kansas25
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Mar 25, 2009 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
read again
in the past……..since you said it has happened multiple times where someone “caled me out” for a metaphore that they did not like……..
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 25, 2009 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beating women...
is a rather poor metahpor.
Free Ronny Cedeno
by Kansas25 on Mar 25, 2009 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wanting Hoffpauir to get the nod at 1B is like...
being a racist.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Mar 25, 2009 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually is IS like being a racist
If you consider that racism stems from ignorance.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Mar 25, 2009 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Waitaminute
That’s not logically correct.
Naiveity also stems from ignorance. By your logic, someone who is naive is, by definition, racist.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 25, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All racists are naive...
but all naive people are not racist. Like rhombuses and squares.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Mar 25, 2009 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's rhombi to you, sir!
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 25, 2009 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed on all counts
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 25, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he uses a Klingon name
not a Vulcan, so logic defies him
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 25, 2009 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And you think beating women is funny
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Mar 25, 2009 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
never once said that
and never will say that. it is called a comparision. annually we get told that the Cubs will do this and that, and annually they do not do it. and we continue to welcome them back.
and for the record (not that you are able to understand such things) but a woman made that comparision to me.
but then again you believe a person should be beaten until bones are shattering, and that breaking jaws is ok (and you have posted such before), so you should be careful about throwin stones.
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 25, 2009 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's called
a stupid, offensive and completely pointless comparison, one that obscures whatever sliver of merit your post might have possibly had. (Although to be fair, it doesn’t take a solar eclipse to blot out your usefulness)
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Mar 25, 2009 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
by the way
have you been able to locate the posts you refered to where i am called out before for anything offensive?
or did you completely ignore that since you were talking out your ass without a hint of truth behind it?
you are good at talking crap, trolling, trying to stir up arguments like a teen aged girl having her first period, but unable to do so in a manner worth my time.
until you can prove anything you have said about my prior posts, you are deemed ignorant, a liar, and not needed IMHO.
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 25, 2009 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You think mentration is funny?
Yes…
It’s EXACTLY like a teen aged girl having her first period.
Just when I thought you had passed your lowest point, you keep finding new depths.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Mar 25, 2009 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LMAO
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 25, 2009 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is that what teenaged girls do when they get their first period?
If so, remind me to hide my laptop in about 10 years.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 25, 2009 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let it go guys!
Obviously he meant no harm by his comparison, you called him out, now let it go! This is a baseball blog, not a city council meeting.
"I always tell the truth -- Even when I lie"
by calicubfan on Mar 25, 2009 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's not correct
Badger, that’s like saying that because there is a highway that goes from Chicago to St. Louis AND there is a highway that goes from Chicago to Milwaukee, then St. Louis and Milwaukee are the same place.
Racism is one of many things that stem from ignorance.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Mar 25, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just like jumping to stupid conclusions and taking yourself way too seriously.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Mar 25, 2009 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or taking nothing seriously at all
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Mar 25, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Especially on an internet baseball blog.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Mar 25, 2009 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Represent!
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 25, 2009 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right -- it's not correct
That’s why I said your logic was wrong.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 25, 2009 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess thats me then
whitey the blue eyed devil, what can I say.
*SARCASM ALERT*
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 25, 2009 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm so sick of these stupid arguments
It was just a comparison based the love/hate nature of our relationship with Soriano!
We need to disband the BCB police. I far prefer anarchy over overzealous BCB police.
by cubsonWGN4ever on Mar 25, 2009 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Big Z
He has no-hit stuff but has not been consistent and was at best our number 3 starter last year after Harden, Dempster, even Lilly was more clutch (winning games after losses). He has yet to come close to winning a Cy Young as he had predicted for himself. He got huge money and we’ll see how he does. Predictions do not look that good for him. 18 mill should be better than ERA’s in the 3.9’s the last few years. Those are not ACE numbers considering he’s paid like an ACE
by Bleeding Cubbie Blue on Mar 25, 2009 9:53 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Going back for the last few years...
…I’d throw out names such as:
2008: Kosuke Fukudome (spinning into infamy)
2007: Cliff Floyd (brought the nagging injuries, never brought the power)
2006: Juan Pierre (leading off to nowhere)
2005: Nomar Garciaparra (injured into oblivion)
2004: Corey Patterson/LaTroy Hawkins (I assume I don’t have to explain these two)
Maybe some of the rest of you can continue.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 25, 2009 10:00 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
So who will it be this year Daver?
DP DLee? A struggling Marmol? An injured Bradley? Mark DeRosa hitting 25 bombs in Cleveland?
I have nothing funny or creative to write.
by Canadian Cubs Fan on Mar 25, 2009 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose those are all possibilities.
Marmol will almost certainly win the award if he drops off the map throughout the season. DLee, maybe. I’m only expecting around 120 games from Bradley, so I won’t get too frustrated if he’s out a lot. (Er, well, I say that now at least.) I don’t think I’ll give the award to DeRo in absentia.
In any case, only time will tell. No sense worrying about it now.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 25, 2009 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's another one
2003: Hee Seop Choi
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Mar 25, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Choi
He more than helped us by having “potential” and nabbing us DLee who is another canidate for this but has been an All-Star for us
by Bleeding Cubbie Blue on Mar 25, 2009 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
True.
And his concussion certainly didn’t help matters. But to watch a guy who was so highly touted struggle as he did was quite frustrating at the time.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Mar 25, 2009 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the listof touted vs producing
is too long to list, we have done a horrible job with that
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 25, 2009 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The concussion was the defining moment in Choi's career.
He was never quite the same after that.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 25, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you guys are all missing one...
Jacque Jones.
I think he is probably my least favorite “most frustrating” Cub of all time. In fact, after every season, I fictitiously award a player from every sports team that i follow (Cubs, Bears, Bulls, Boilermakers) the “Jacque Jones Award”. It is awarded to a player with talent who never does anything in the clutch and consistenly under performs.
The most important aspect of this award is that is has to be given to someone WITH talent. Someone like Neifi Perez was very frustrating but he wasn’t very talented so he doesn’t count.
Yeah, it is stupid, but my friends and I have fun awarding players after each sports season.
by smitster2008 on Mar 25, 2009 10:09 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
See, I wasn't all that frustrated with Jacque Jones...
…because I never really expected that much out of him. And I’m not sure I’d agree that he consistently underperformed. He had some remarkably productive stretches (second half of ’07, IIRC).
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 25, 2009 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jones
You should not have been frustrated because he was with the Cubs what he was with the Twins. Jim Hendry signed a mediocre left fielder in every sense and that what he was with the Cubs.
by dmlichte on Mar 25, 2009 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will say this for Jacque
He had the coolest home run reaction ever. The way he just let the bat fall out of his hands was so cool.
Too bad they weren’t all that often!
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Mar 25, 2009 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha, yeah, that was pretty awesome.
And let’s not forget his “two six-shooter salute” when he’d reach base.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 25, 2009 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I can say that I'm the only Cub fan that always liked that guy
I don’t really know why
www.talkingchicagobaseball.blogspot.com
by nji232 on Mar 25, 2009 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I always
kind of liked him, I think he gets alot of shit for no reason, he was a pretty good player while he was here.
by tizzle on Mar 25, 2009 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jones
played better and was more comfortable in CF, which he was moved to RF when Torri Hunter took over CK for MInn. If you remember he seemed to be more productive both in the field and at the plate when he was back in CF towards the end of his Cubs tenure.
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 25, 2009 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he got a lot of hell because of the fans
frustrations with Dusty. Jacque kind of symbolized the “Dusty Days” and got caught up in the whirlwind. It’s too bad bacuse he carried the team for a large portion of his last season here.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 25, 2009 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i have a better chanc of throwing out a runner at home than jones
4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42
by fischisgod on Mar 25, 2009 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
...and probably on less bounces, too.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Mar 25, 2009 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hands Down
Theriot and his propensity for getting out while stealing
Steal a little and they throw you in jail, Steal a lot and they make you king -- Bob Dylan
by Emelie on Mar 25, 2009 10:22 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You could add Ronny Cedeno to that list.
There’s a player with talent who always made maddeningly bad decisions on the basepaths.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 25, 2009 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the only player I know of
who can be out at second on a walk
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 25, 2009 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maddening decisions on the basepaths?
Two words:
1) Shawon
2) Dunston
by MN exile on Mar 25, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even Dunston never got thrown out at second after advancing on a walk.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 25, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Theriot
And his horrible range and subpar defense…but I actually think he has outperformed what he was projected to be…I wouldn’t have guessed starting shortstop with .300 avg and good OBP, let’s see if last year was real or if he really is a utility infielder.
by Bleeding Cubbie Blue on Mar 25, 2009 10:29 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Ah, but is Theriot's defense really "subpar"?
This is something that’s caught my eye recently. In 2,142 innings at shorstop, Ryan’s UZR/UZR 150 rating is 5.0/3.9. That’s actually quite good.
What’s more, in John Dewan’s book The Fielding Bible, the author describes Theriot as having, “…strong range up the middle.” He also describes Theriot as “tremendous” at catching line drives and pop-ups. I don’t actually own the book – I’m getting this from Bruce Miles’ blog post on the subject. Read more there, including what a scout told Bruce about Theriot.
Bottom line: Ryan Theriot may not be bad at defense.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 25, 2009 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait. He's tremendous at catching line drives and pop ups?
Isn’t that part of the job description? What infielder can’t catch pop ups?
Now, in Theriot’s defense, I think he does do a pretty good job of ranging behind third and into short left field to make up for Soriano’s poor jumps on shallow fly balls and pop ups. Dewan’s wording just seems funny.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Mar 25, 2009 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, the wording is a little odd.
And, like I said, I don’t actually own the book. I do know that Dewan is pretty highly regarded in the baseball analysis/sabermagical realms, so his comments combined with the UZR/UZR 150 stuff definitely made me take a second look at Theriot’s defense.
I mean, his double-clutching and seemingly weak throws to first still drive me crazy. But it’s entirely possible he does a lot of other little things that save runs. And he now has about two full seasons as a major league shortstop under his belt. Honestly, I’m more concerned with the team’s lack of depth at the SS and 3B positions than the team’s starting shortstop at this point.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 25, 2009 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would agree.
In general, I think the Cubs could do far worse than Theriot. He does a lot of the little things a team needs to win on a daily basis, and if he makes up for his arm with smart positioning, then it definitely would help his defensive numbers.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Mar 25, 2009 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
From another blog post
you’ll see that his career UZR (per 150 games) at SS is 3.9. He’s played 2142 innings there so that number is rather reliable. The problem, however, is that if we check out his RZR (The Hardball Times link above), it’s juts .823. It’s not much below average at SS, but it is below average
You have two of the best fielding metrics with a big difference between them. In one he’s above average (barely) and the other he’s below average (by quite a bit). If you check out John Dewan’s +/- (aka Fielding Bible) Theriot is above average. In 2007 Theriot was +5 and ranked 13th among MLB shortstops and in 2008 he was +6 (12th best). The Fielding Bible is nice because it breaks the plays down into air outs, ground outs as well as outs made to the left, right and straight on. In Theriot’s career at SS, he’s +2 on plays to his right and +5 on plays to his left, but -1 on balls hit straight at him. That’s odd. Theriot does not have great range and dives 300 times per games rarely recording an out doing so. You’d think he is only competent at the position because he fields the ones hit straight at him, but that’s not the case.
So I guess he is average but I did say he didn’t belong on this list…
by Bleeding Cubbie Blue on Mar 25, 2009 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good info.
I’ll be the first to admit – I just recently started looking at UZR/UZR 150 numbers and I’m no expert. But, like I said, his decent rating there and Dewan’s comments were a surprising and, quite frankly, refreshing assessment of a player who so many have resigned as “sucking” at defense. (Not you, just many on this site and elsewhere.)
One question: What Hardball Times link are you referring to? I don’t see a link like that on this thread but would like to check it out. Thanks.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 25, 2009 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Theriot defense..post from the other Cubs blog
by Bleeding Cubbie Blue on Mar 25, 2009 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Got it, thanks!
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 25, 2009 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This whole problem stems from the fact that Theriot is a second baseman...
and he’d be a really good one too, if we only had a real SS.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Mar 25, 2009 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good point
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Mar 25, 2009 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Corey Patterson
If ever a player looked to be the complete package it was him. I’m weary of hearing about the pressure, early call ups, etc.
He was focused on being a 3/4/5 hitter and would not/could not change anything about his demeanor at the plate to adjust.
By the end, I coudn’t stand Dusty, but Patterson’s failure is not his fault. Dusty may have contributed, but the failure lies with Corey himself.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Mar 25, 2009 10:33 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Right now...
It’s D-Lee. His lack of power the second half of last year and his knack to hit into the DP’s was really frustrating.
Rich Hill has to be most frustrating overall, even more than Prior for me. Hill’s curveball was just nasty, and he had a lot of hitters taking very awkward swings when he pitched. No shoulder injury, no towel drills… he just lost it somehow.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Mar 25, 2009 10:33 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Jim Hendry
Made some great moves, but also a lot of head-scratchers
"Prince Fielder Dies Of Inside-The-Park Homerun" - The Onion
by DTJchris on Mar 25, 2009 11:18 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
he has made
horrible roster decisions putting an inferior bench together for his manager’s and his abysmal record with the farm system.
Certainly some positives, but most definitely the “most frustrating” Cub.
by socalbob on Mar 27, 2009 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you referring to the bench this year or in previous years?
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 27, 2009 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moises Alou
For him to come from a family of baseball players, he had the worst instincts on the basepaths I’ve ever seen.
LaTroy was also up there. I never once felt like he would hold a lead.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Mar 25, 2009 11:23 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Alfonso Soriano
He doesn’t deliver, period. And by deliver I mean when the games count the most. His cold spells also have a debilitating impact on the entire Cub lineup for some reason. I’d like Soriano a whole lot more if he was batting # 6. I’ve overcome my sadness over his insane contract situation. He is overpaid by an increment of 2 or 3 times his true market value. Hendry outbid against himself and spent franchise player dollars on a player that is anything but a franchise player.
by BLou on Mar 25, 2009 11:25 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm totally shocked by your response.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 25, 2009 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was expecting either
Lou or Rich Harden LOL
"That's what you live for. You live for the opportunity and when that day comes, you better be ready," Soto said. "I tried to make sure that whenever they gave me a chance, I was ready and I knew I had to take advantage of the opportunity."
by Madison Cub Fan on Mar 26, 2009 2:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or the Ricketts Family.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 26, 2009 7:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dusty Baker
Far and away, the most frustrating. He made me truly dislike the Cubs for a period of years. He screwed up arms, had no clue how to handle in game situations and created an overall negative atmosphere on the north side.
by dmlichte on Mar 25, 2009 11:30 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I would say Fukudome
But DPLee makes me want to punch a wall sometimes. With Fukudome I have come to accept his not being good, I remember not too long ago when DLee was a stud.
www.talkingchicagobaseball.blogspot.com
by nji232 on Mar 25, 2009 11:45 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
DP DLee
Funny how loneliness sounds so good, until you hear the echoes of your soul burning a hole in your shirt. -DJM
by heine41 on Mar 25, 2009 11:48 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
My two most frustrating Cubs:
1 – GameBoard
2 – SWL
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
by dtpollitt on Mar 25, 2009 11:51 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Gameboard????
The man hasn’t played a single inning of real games, yet.
At least wait until Mother’s Day!
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Mar 25, 2009 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Mar 25, 2009 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I find it difficut to respond to this question. Perhaps I am too much of a fan or
I understand the difficulties of hitting a 95-mph fastball, pitching at the big league level or even making the majors, but I find it hard to be frustrated with my Cub heroes. I know they are trying as hard as they can, but if the ability is not there, I really can’t fault them.
Am I disappointed when DLee hits into a DP or Big Z walks a batter? Of course I am. But I love this game and this team too much to believe that they want to fail or don’t care enough about winning to satisfy me.
So perhaps I am frustrated with myself. For believing every spring that this is the year and that this Cub team will be different and win it all. But then I see the sun beam down on that emerald green grass and see the players assemble for another season. Then I realize that there is nothing like enjoying the greatest game in the world at the greatest place in the world and for a moment I forget about all the problems and heartache that we suffer and I feel pretty good about my life.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 25, 2009 11:54 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Until the playoffs.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Mar 25, 2009 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
right!
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 25, 2009 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
great post!
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 25, 2009 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks C-T.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 25, 2009 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So perhaps I am frustrated with myself. For believing every spring that this is the year and that this Cub team will be different and win it all.
may have been one of the best lines I have read in along time, yet so true at the same time
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 25, 2009 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well put, Willie.
Now someone get this man a hot dog and a beer, STAT!
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 25, 2009 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A gratuitous shot of EA will do just fine!
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 25, 2009 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Done and done.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 25, 2009 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks, buddy.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 25, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Corey Patterson
All these players have some form of talent to reach the bigs, however when you see a player waste it and seem to be OK with wasting that talent it just angers us that would kill to be in the bigs.
Close second, Felix Pie.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Mar 25, 2009 12:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
For the life of me...
I can’t ever recall actually seeing this “talent” Pie and Patterson were supposed to have. I remember a handful of defensive plays they made that were spectacular, but offensively I only remember the loooong terrible swings.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Mar 25, 2009 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think sometimes :talent" and "tools" get confused. They both could run very
fast and occasionally hit the ball, but neither showed the baseball accumen that’s needed to make it in the big leagues. There seems to be this notion that if a player has a lot of natural ability, it’s best to leave him alone and let him develop naturally. That doesn’t seem to work with these types of guys.
Baseball is a game of subtleties and learned abilities. It is my contenetion that guys like Pie and Patterson need to be broken down and built up because they have been allowed to survive on natural talent which can hide serious faults. Guys who don’t have natural athletic abilities have to develop solid fundamentals or they won’t survive. There have been very few exceptions to this rule. Multi-sport guy like Dieon Sanders and Bo Jackson were much better football players than baseball players because their natural athletic ability allowed them to run past or overpower their opponents. Baseball doesn’t work that way.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 25, 2009 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another exception: Ryan Theriot
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 25, 2009 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since when is Ryan Theriot considered "talented"?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Mar 25, 2009 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scrappiness could be considered a talent
Maybe?
"Prince Fielder Dies Of Inside-The-Park Homerun" - The Onion
by DTJchris on Mar 25, 2009 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
An exception because
He doesn’t have the talent and doesn’t know the fundamentals — yet, he survives.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 25, 2009 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So...
he’s like a cockroach?
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Mar 25, 2009 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but a scrappy one
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 25, 2009 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
long before you started posting here, sonny...
now get your damn pictures off my lawn!
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Mar 25, 2009 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Patterson NEVER showed talent as a hitter other than in the 1st half of 03 for 2 months. I don’t watch minor league games so I have never seen Pie show talent at the plate……..unless you call striking out a talent
by plenz on Mar 25, 2009 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess that
is my disappointment with Patterson and Pie. The hype given to them fairly or unfairly made them into something that they obvisously were not.
I really thought Patterson was coming along fine in 03 until he hurt his knee.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Mar 25, 2009 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jimbo
Honetly he makes some really good deals and then he makes some realy really bad deals that knid of leave you scratching your head. For eampleDerek Lee and Aramis trades ver very very good. Ricky Nolasco amd everyone we have drafted very ba decision (that includes vitters. no reason to pass on wieters)
BTW SWL i saw your girl last night. she is back!
4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42
by fischisgod on Mar 25, 2009 12:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Which one? It's difficult to keep track of all of them.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Mar 25, 2009 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
your avatar
Brits back!
4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42
by fischisgod on Mar 25, 2009 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
gotta be Soriano
Incredibly good one week. Incredibly awful the next. As others have said………..all in all it’s a bad contract that will look horrendous a few years from now. That being said…….if he stays healthy all year…………he’s a possible MVP this year.
by plenz on Mar 25, 2009 1:52 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Todd Hundley
I was a child of the 50,s and 60,s and being a kid catcher was a huge Randy fan and I wanted nothing more than to see his son come in and be a star for the Cubs
If the world didn't suck we would all fall off.
by carolinacub on Mar 25, 2009 2:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Soriano, easily...strikes out way too much and he shouldn't lead off
by Cubs and Hawks fan on Mar 25, 2009 2:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You should start of fanpost to discuss this.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Mar 25, 2009 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll post the first comment in that
If the Cubs got Roberts, they could drop Soriano in the order.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 25, 2009 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Psst...you forgot to mention his terrible defense.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 25, 2009 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And that he is a guess-hack hitter
Well, perhaps he did, but he didn’t use the right terminology
"Prince Fielder Dies Of Inside-The-Park Homerun" - The Onion
by DTJchris on Mar 25, 2009 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How could I have forgotton that one
"That's what you live for. You live for the opportunity and when that day comes, you better be ready," Soto said. "I tried to make sure that whenever they gave me a chance, I was ready and I knew I had to take advantage of the opportunity."
by Madison Cub Fan on Mar 26, 2009 2:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't consider Neifi frustrating
We all knew what to expect out of Neifi. I would say it was frustrating that Dusty kept playing Neifi, which isn’t Neifi’s fault.
Unless Neifi had incriminating photos of Dusty and that’s why he kept getting playing time. In which case, its Neifi’s fault.
"Prince Fielder Dies Of Inside-The-Park Homerun" - The Onion
by DTJchris on Mar 25, 2009 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Totally agree.
Like Jacque Jones, Neifi was Neifi. He was a defensive replacement – no more, no less. Nothing really to get frustrated about besides Dusty’s incessant need to pencil him into the lineup.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 25, 2009 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
always did love his helicopter swing that where he would just smack a little blooper or occasional line drive
by cufban2522 on Mar 25, 2009 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
doesn't matter why he was in there
i agree it was on dusty and don’t dislike neifi as a dude. regardless, when dusty put him in there in important situations my teeth gnashed.
by Cubinator on Mar 25, 2009 3:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
juan pierre was amazing for the marlins. he was terrible as a cub. frustrating.
by cufban2522 on Mar 25, 2009 3:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Dusty Baker
no explanation needed
#34: You'll be missed!
by Chanman25 on Mar 25, 2009 5:10 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
What do you mean?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Mar 25, 2009 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How that man decided that it would be fine to bat 1-2 Corey Patterson - Neifi Perez
while Derrek Lee could have had At least Todd Walker in front.
#34: You'll be missed!
by Chanman25 on Mar 25, 2009 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's alright, SWL - I got it...
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Mar 25, 2009 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
see a doctor and get rid of it.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Mar 25, 2009 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Prior wasn't done in by the Hawpe liner.
He was done in by poor coaching during his amateur career, especially during his career at USC. Tom House teaches mechanics which were thought to be perfect several years ago, but recent discoveries have proved that these actually increase injury risk. It is no coincidence that fellow USC alums Anthony Reyes and Ian Kennedy have also struggled with injury and ineffectiveness.
"Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me." -Dusty Baker on OBP
by vtcub on Mar 25, 2009 9:55 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Alex Gonzalez
if he doesn’t boot the ROUTINE DP BALL we get to the Fall Classic, IMHO.
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
by BigJohnAZ on Mar 26, 2009 5:21 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Possibly true, but
players make errors when they tighten up. Look at the defensive gem of an inning Theriot, DeRosa and Lee had versus the Dodgers.
I realize people like to beat on Gonzalez, but with few exceptions, he was a decent defensive SS. His bat was lacking, but that wasn’t why he was on the roster.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Mar 26, 2009 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
there was still a game 7
that error = Buckner error in historical folklore IMO
both happened in game 6, no one seems to mention that there was a game 7 loss when discussing the errors
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 26, 2009 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This doesn't detract from your point, but one difference
The Red Sox had already blown a 2-run, 2-out bases empty lead when Buckner made his error. The Cubs were still leading when Gonzo made his.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 26, 2009 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously, more happened after his error
that resulted in the game getting out of hand. After that play, the rest lays on Dusty’s head. But, for that one instance in the history of the Cubs, that one misplay is the most frustrating, with the Durham Gatorade soaked glove most likely in the same level of frustration. Gonzo’s is fresher in my mind, so I picked this one when I could have just as easily pick Leon Durham.
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
by BigJohnAZ on Mar 26, 2009 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not the same pressure
but you could include Brant Brown in LF as well (wait, a 1B playing OF…I think I have an idea for Hof…….nevermind)
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 26, 2009 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I realize that there was a game 7
but if he fields the ball hit directly at him and they turn 2, we aren’t talking about a game 7. That’s why he he my most frustrating Cub, he had a good glove and he was one of my favorite players. Yes, errors happen, but that’s what makes it more frustrating. I mean, if Dunston airmails Grace, or boots one, you expect that at times, but you never expect that from Kessinger, right?
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
by BigJohnAZ on Mar 26, 2009 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Possibly..
no one know what would have happened for sure. But I have to give the Fish credit, had they gone on to get pounded by the Yankees in the WS I would feel much different about the entire ordeal starting wth Bartman and ending with a game 7 loss. But they went to the WS, and beat the Yankees. Wasit a fluke they made it, who knows, but they followed thru with a WS win, and I tip my hat to them for it.
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 26, 2009 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some may say I'm still bitter....
and truthfully, they would probably be right. But as long as I live, I will never give the ‘03 Marlins credit for anything. Should have been a four-game sweep. Period. (Remember, we blew a 4-0 lead in Game 1). The Cubs literally gift-wrapped that series, but a big bow on top, and handed it to the Marlins. They didn’t win it, we lost it. It’s as simple as that. Yes, they won the WS, and I don’t care. They simply had no business being there.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
by ctcoff99 on Mar 26, 2009 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, when the Cubs finally win, I'm sure there will be a few fortunate breaks along the way - gifts, if you will.
And when that happens, will you give the Cubs credit for the title? Or will you instead sit on the sidelines and wait for that perfect season where the Cubs earn every victory every step of the way with absolutely no lucky breaks, no fortunate happenstances, and nobody gives them anything.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Mar 26, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I'll judge that when it happens.
Remember the 1985 Royals? Won the WS due to the Denkinger call at first base in Game 6. Sure, the Cards still had Game 7 and lost 11-0. So what, if Denkinger makes the right call, there most likely isn’t a Game 7. If I had been a Royals fan, something would always nag me about my team’s only world championship, that somehow it wasn’t legit. Yes, winning teams always get lucky breaks along the way. But as someone once said, grapes come in bunches, but coincidences don’t. Granted, that’s one extreme example, but you get my drift.
Sure when the Cubs win there will be lucky breaks. Not like the ones they gave to Florida in ‘03. Something like that could only happen once in a lifetime. I understand what you’re saying, and for the most part, you’re right. But my opinion stands. Unfounded or not, I’ll pretty sure it always will.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
by ctcoff99 on Mar 26, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It seems likely...
… that when teams lose a game 6 in that way, after being up 3 games to 2 and nearly on to the next round, that winning a game 7 is nearly impossible. Those Cardinals, the 1986 Red Sox, the 2003 Cubs, the 2004 Yankees — none of them could win the game 7.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 26, 2009 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
2008 Rays
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 26, 2009 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
2008 Rays didn't lose a game 6.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 26, 2009 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Terry Francona would like a word with you
Granted, they didn’t lose in crushing fashion, but they blew a 3 games to 1 lead.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 26, 2009 8:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really, the Marlins had a better team. The Cubs had a great 6 weeks.
In what was otherwise a mediocre season.
That doesn’t change the fact that a team in the position the Cubs were in after game 4 has to get it done, but the Marlins were better.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 26, 2009 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you are wrong
the fact of the matter is that they WON the world series. and not just any world series, but the new york yankees who were disgusting that year.
the yankees won 101 games and took 1st in the AL East. they had 3 players with over 30 hrs, and 8 players with more than 10 hrs (the only player not to was ventura who hit 9). offensively, the 2003 yankees were the most potent team in baseball.
pitching wise, the yankees had 4 pitchers with more than 15 wins, although you can attribute their offense to this stat. their bullpen was led by rivera, who to no surprise, dominated with a 1.66 era and 40 saves.
The marlins were 2nd in the NL East and fought their way into the playoffs. Their offense was good, but not comparable to the yankees. their starting pitching was decent throughout the season, although they had 3 pitchers under a 4 era.
The playoffs made this marlins team. This was the emergence of Beckett and others.
To argue that this team did not deserve to be in the playoffs is ridiculous. We celebrate this game of baseball not for the powerhouse teams that win their division every year, but for the opportunity for talent to emerge from unexpected places.
I hate the 2003 Marlins for obvious reasons, but I respect them as the 2003 World Series Champions.
by cufban2522 on Mar 26, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say that they didn't belong in the playoffs....
I said they didn’t belong in the World Series. Also, read the first sentence of my original post. Maybe I’m still bitter even now. And maybe I am wrong. But my opinion is what it is.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
by ctcoff99 on Mar 26, 2009 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
team chemistry
we have such talent every year going into the playoffs, but our team chemistry dies in the playoffs. things may go well for us (or not, such as the last 2 years). when something goes wrong, you can always tell just by looking at the player’s faces.
by cufban2522 on Mar 26, 2009 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to nitpick (actually, yes) - that's not team chemistry
Hutzpah, schmaltz, intestinal fortitude . . . but not chemistry.
Team chemistry is how well they get along together; that didn’t change.
I didn’t notice that in the players’ faces in game 1. And, I thought Zambrano reacted farily well with all that was going on behind him the next night — exceptionally well for him.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 26, 2009 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
look at last year
they played with no intensity or heart last year. that was obvious looking at the players and the dugout. no emotion after the final loss.
i guess i wouldn’t say team chemistry, it’s just that they didn’t use their team chemistry to enhance their play
by cufban2522 on Mar 26, 2009 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do you blame that on chemistry?
I wasn’t disagreeing with you before, so much as your semantics . . . but now I am.
A hit falls in because you get along with your teammates? It’s easy to look bad when you lose.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 26, 2009 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
true, team chemistry has absolutely nothing to do with a little bloop single, but think about it in the long run. we had great team chemistry in the season, with a talented team. team chemistry just ties in the knots and translates into success most of the time.
the cubs lost chemistry when the realized that the dodgers series was another “oh no…”
team chemistry also translates into an emotional way of playing the game. once we lost the emotional game play, we lost the series.
by cufban2522 on Mar 26, 2009 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uhh, yeah you were disagreeing with him before..
…you said “Not to nitpick (actually, yes) – that’s not team chemistry .” That’s disagreeing.
by Cubs and Hawks fan on Mar 26, 2009 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't disagreeing with I thought was the premise
I wasn’t disagreeing with you before, so much as your semantics . . . but now I am.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 26, 2009 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's pushing it just a bit.
Just because there were outward displays of emotion doesn’t mean they felt no emotion. I’d guess a lot of them were in shock. I know I was.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 26, 2009 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That should be: "...there were NO outward displays..."
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 26, 2009 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i guess you could say shock. were the players excited about the series? no. were they sad? no. they did not show emotion
by cufban2522 on Mar 26, 2009 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So none of the Cubs players were excited about playing in the postseason?
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 26, 2009 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no, they were scared and that was quite evident based off their performace and looking post game press conferences
by cufban2522 on Mar 26, 2009 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do you know they were scared? Did you visit the
locker room? Did you talk to any of them? Poor performance doesn’t always equal being afraid of your opponent. I think you are making some pretty strong assumptions her.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 26, 2009 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pardon my word choice but...
it was obvious that the dodgers had the momentum once we lost game one because as i said before they were thinking ohhh no, not again. we got swept the year before and that series sweep was still on many players’ minds.
idk if you watched any of the games, but watch the ways the players held themselves and you will discover that it was quite depressing
by cufban2522 on Mar 26, 2009 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, it's easy to point to the team that lost and say
They had no heart, they were flat, they didn’t want it more, etc . . . .
It really is an empty argument. Sometimes the better team, that really, really wants it loses anyway. Sometimes they lose three in a row. It happens.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 26, 2009 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
The Cubs played poorly in ‘07 and ’08, but the ran into two very hot teams in Arizona and the Dodgers. It’s hurts to say it, but both of those teams were playing much better than the Cubs as those series started. In both cases, the opening game set the tone for the series and the Cubs never recovered. It happens.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 26, 2009 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, it happens.
Over and over and over again…to us.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Mar 26, 2009 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
At least we're remembered for something
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 26, 2009 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
just to add more to the fire...
here’s what Lou had to say in a few interviews throughout the NLDS
“We have a team that hits home runs, has got some power. We don’t have all that much speed in the lineup. … I said we were going to hit and run in this series, but we’ve fallen behind so early.”
“To me, pressure is when you have doubt,” when you have doubt and lose some confidence, that creates pressure. If you’re nice and relaxed and trust your abilities and you play, somebody’s going to win and somebody’s going to lose."
by cufban2522 on Mar 26, 2009 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can't you be excited and scared at the same time?
And isn’t “being scared” showing emotion? You said they didn’t show emotion.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 26, 2009 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow
ok so is that a good thing?
MY ISSUE IS THAT THE CUBS DID NOT SHOW POSITIVE EMOTION
by cufban2522 on Mar 26, 2009 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's kinda hard to show positive emotion when you're losing.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 26, 2009 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
now that's the problem
if they lose just one game, then the doubt starts to flutter. one game should not translate into an entire series. they need leaders to step up and create positive influences.
i guess we can all agree that the the loss of first game is what created negative momentum and emotions, because a team like the 2008 cubs should never of performed like they did in the playoffs last year.
by cufban2522 on Mar 26, 2009 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I would agree that Game One definitely left them scared.
But I think Big Z did his damndest to step up and lead in Game Two. His defense just let him down, and then he let himself down with one bad pitch to Russell Martin. The series was effectively over after that.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 26, 2009 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Big Z had a great game despite the runs
but the game definitely should not of been over. it was in the 2nd inning and we ended up being down 5. think of all the great comebacks or runs scored in one inning the cubs had last year.
a game is never over after 2 innings. never.
by cufban2522 on Mar 26, 2009 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I'd say you're definitely bitter.
Understandably so, I guess, but you really need to look back at that Marlins roster. Pudge, Mike Lowell, Josh Beckett, Dontrelle Willis, Miguel Cabrera…oh, and some dude named Derrek Lee. That wasn’t some marginally talented team that lucked their way to a world championship. There was some true, young talent on that team. They saw an opportunity in Game 6 and they seized upon it. Sucks for us. Kudos to them.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 26, 2009 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not just Miguel Cabrera,
but a young, thin Miguel Cabrera.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Mar 26, 2009 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep.
And, as I not-so-subtly alluded to, a good Dontrelle Willis.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 26, 2009 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who we pounded in Game 4
if I recall correctly.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
by ctcoff99 on Mar 26, 2009 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nevertheless, the Marlins were the better team.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 26, 2009 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, I probably should've left Dontrelle out after all.
Still, he helped get them to the postseason in the first place.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 26, 2009 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I can't trash a player
for one play.
Most of the guys discussed; Fukudome, Patterson, Pie, Todd Hundley, Farnsworth, bore out or are displaying their issues over a body of work.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Mar 26, 2009 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Candy Maldonado
Scored the series clinching run against us in the ’89 NLCS.
Joined as a free agent in ’93 after hiting 20 homers and hitting .272 for Toronto. That was supposed to be the big free agent splash that year (back when the Trib was REALLY cheap), but after 70 games with a .186 average he was shipped back to the AL.
And on a personal note, the only game I went to that year, he hit a rocket off the wall for a double and was thrown out easily at third trying to make it a triple. Most frustrating play in baseball in my humble opinion.
by Orval Overall on Mar 26, 2009 10:03 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Corey Patterson
Hands down. OK, maybe our expectations were a bit high considering he was all hype as he was coming through the Cubs system, and he was very poorly coached once he got to the big leagues. But the players who are the most frustrating are the guys who have more talent in their pinky finger than most have in their entire body, and just have nothing but a giant “For Rent” space between their ears. For that reason, I put him even higher than Mark Prior on the list, because Corey, for the most part, was always healthy.
I have to throw in Juan Pierre, though. A guy who basically goes 0 for April and May in ’06, and then starting in June, when the Cubs were 20 games out, starts hitting everything, and ends up leading the NL in hits, every single one of them being absolutely meaningless since the Cubs were out of it long before. I know it sometimes takes time for guys to adjust to new surroundings, but to say that was frustrating was an understatement.
And then there’s Todd Hundley. Enough said.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
by ctcoff99 on Mar 26, 2009 12:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
SORIANO
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
by Clutche on Mar 26, 2009 2:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Hoffpauir
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 26, 2009 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're bad
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
by Clutche on Mar 27, 2009 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Corey "freakin" Patterson
Prior is definitely a close second.
"I'm not so mean. I wouldn't ever go out to hurt anybody deliberately - unless it was, you know, important, like a league game or something." - Dick Butkus
by propheteer on Mar 26, 2009 5:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Jeff Blauser!
I thought that guy was coming to Chicago with a red cape and a big “S” on his chest.
"I lof to hit de home ron!"
by Tekboy on Mar 26, 2009 7:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
We all did.
He was coming off a good year the year before and he was only 32. While a decline might have been possible to predict, the steepness of the decline was stunning.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Mar 26, 2009 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zambrano
The immaturity is a hindrance.
by DudeVf11 on Mar 26, 2009 8:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That is true
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 26, 2009 9:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Z's immaturity doesn't bother me all that much.
That’s just his personality. It’s his inconsistency on the mound that I find frustrating. He doesn’t top my list of “most frustrating” Cubs, but, yeah, he’s definitely on there.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
by dat cubfan daver on Mar 27, 2009 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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