Cubs Release 2003 #1 draft pick, Ryan Harvey
by Archie on Mar 26, 2009 10:01 AM CDT
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PrintYesterday, the Cubs released 2003 #1 draft pick OF Ryan Harvey. Link. Harvey always showed a lot of raw talent, but never delivered on that. He could always hit a ton...when he made contact. The problem was that he could never distinguish balls from strikes. 1st ball-fast ball hacker. He hit .247/.298/.448 with 83 HR and 539 strikeouts in 471 career minor league games and was seemingly always injured. The guy did have a rocket arm and I would guess that the Cubs tried to convince him to change positions and pitch as he did in High School (ala a certain Carlos Marmol who started as a catcher.) If so, apparently Harvey refused, so he was let go. It is a good thing probably and the Cubs are treating him well by allowing him to go and try to catch on with someone else. He would have needed to be added to the 40 man roster at the end of the year, and he was not progressing to the point where that would have been a good move for the Cubs.
Continuing their lack of production from the John Stockstill era of the draft.
2002 1st Round:
21 Bobby Brownlie,
32 Luke Hagerty
36 Chadd Blasko
38 Matt Canton
Best pick of draft: Rich Hill? round 4, Micah Hoffpauir? round 13
2003 1st Round:
6 Ryan Harvey
Best pick of draft: Sean Marshall round 6
I'd go back farther, but it's just depressing. Other first rounders are: Luis Montanez, Ben Christensen, Corey Patterson, Mark Prior, (although to be fair, this 2001 draft wasn't too bad; even with the frustration that was Prior. It also delivered Theriot and Soto to the Cubs as well as traded parts Nolasco and Mitre.).
Anyway, good luck to Harvey. I am sure that he will land somewhere for a while at least. It really is too bad that it didn't work out, but I see him being a total bust and never sniffing the big leagues.
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Those drafts were pretty bad.
Brownlie was a terrible pick. He was hurt when he was drafted and everyone knew it — that’s why he fell to the Cubs at #21. The next four picks after Brownlie were Jeremy Guthrie, Jeff Francoeur, Joe Blanton and Matt Cain.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Why do you think
That the drafting was that bad for so many years? Was Stockstill that bad at evaluating talent? Or was there no one in the Cubs MiL system that knew how to develop talent?
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
the chicken and the egg
why stealing someone from Oakland or Milwaukee would be the best move.
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
Definitely both
The difference between Stockstill and Wilken are far greater than people are acknowledging. It has nothing to do with Wilken’s track record and more to do with the types of talent he goes after. Yes, Wilken does go after some hit or miss upside guys, but he goes after athletes in the hopes that lessens the potential injury risk. A lot of the arms in the Stockstill era fell apart due to injury, including some arms that eventually were moved to other organizations. So, while Stockstill drafted some high upside guys, he was hit and miss.
Now, the Montanez draft, while I disliked it, I have a tough time blaming anyone if we don’t have the benefit of hindsight. That was widely considered a horrid draft, and Montanez was considered an intriguing talent.
As for Harvey, it’s about time. I imagine Baltimore will scoop him up, or at least, they may. He wasn’t worth a roster spot that could go to a more deserving player. The Florida power boys are both gone … (Dopirak being the other guy).
Montanez
It was considered a bad draft at the time and it was a horrid draft in retrospect. Adrian Gonzalez has become a great player with the #1 pick, but only after two organizations gave up on him first. After that, if you weren’t smart enough to take Chase Utley or Adam Wainwright, your organization got a disappointing player in the first round, unless you think Rocco Baldelli is going to bounce back. At least Montanez has made the majors, which is not something a lot of first round picks from that season could.
The supplemental first was a little better with our own Aaron Heilman, Dustin McGowan and Kelly Johnson getting picked. Still, when you’re talking about Heilman, McGowan and Johnson being the best picks in a draft . . .
Montanez was considered a budget pick, someone who would sign cheaply. But if the Cubs had taken the player considered the best talent on the board when we drafted, we would have been stuck with Matt Harrington. Picking Montanez doesn’t seem so bad when you put it that way.
by Josh Timmers on Mar 26, 2009 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions
Actually, we did end up being stuck with Harrington - but it was several years later and of our own doing.
Man, this is one sorry tale of stubbornness and talent decline, not to mention a ton of bad advice. Check out his Wikipedia entry for the whole sad story. I knew about the first couple years of being drafted and not signing, but I had no idea this went on for 5 years, plus another year of not even being drafted. Per MLB rules, at that point he became a free agent and…
On October 10, 2006, he signed a minor league contract with the Chicago Cubs. He received no signing bonus, but attended the Cubs’ 2007 spring training camp with the hope of landing a position on a Cubs minor league team; however, the Cubs released him on March 27, 2007.
I guess everybody deserves a seventh chance…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Harrington screwed himself by asking for too much money and sitting out.
He should have been in the minor leagues working hard. He had talent, but squandered it.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I agree
that at the end of the day, the kid is responsible. But he really received bad advice those first two years. The one that irks me more is the Boras one. Boras, for all his faults, is a smart guy. He should’ve pushed Harrington to sign in that 2nd year because it seemed clear Matt H’s stock was just going to keep on declining.
The Harrington story was one of the "sadder" stories
draft wise (sad in quotes because it is only relative to baseball). I really blame that on poor advice, starting with Tanzer negotiating with the Rockies, and followed by Boras with the Padres.
Mcgowan
McGowan just happend to be taken by our present scouting director when he was with Toronto.
Side note, if McGowan ever puts it together
And he’s close … the last two years, he’s been a solid 2 type guy. If he puts it together, he has a shot to be one of the top pitchers in the game … which is kinda funny considering how he was jerked around a bit in the Blue Jays system.
I'd rather seee this McGowan.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 29, 2009 3:02 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm not sure I can get past...
…the fact that she’s been with a guy as ugly as Marilyn Manson. But I will gladly continue to stare at this picture and try.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
plus Cubs have one of the smallest front offices
when it comes to the amount of people scouting
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
Which may be why Jim Hendry would get personally involved
Dopirak and Harvey were first-round picks from Hendry’s high school alma mater in Tampa. Brownlie was coached by one of Hendry’s best friends at ND. These were only the most obvious examples.
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
Brownlie went to Rutgers, not Notre Dame.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Dang, wish they'd picked Cain.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
Like I noted above
the Montanez pick wasn’t bad. It turned out bad, but that’s the benefit of hindsight. He was considered an intriguing shortstop talent who might be able to provide above average offense for the position. Part of the blame, IMO, also goes to the developmental team in our system.
This is even more depressing when you realize
that with the #7 pick after the Cubs picked Harvey, the Orioles selected Nick Markakis.
With #8, the Pirates got Paul Malholm
With #9, the Rangers got John Danks
With #10, the Rockies got Ian Stewart
With #11, the Indians took Michael Aubrey
With #12, the Mets took Lastings Milledge
All of those have at least played in the bigs and some have the makings of REALLY good players.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
Dang, wish they'd picked Markakis.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
Earl Cunningham, anyone?
Just trying to lighten the mood . . .
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 26, 2009 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions
I hear your Earl and
raise you a Ty Griffin and Lance Dickson. :-D
Lance Dickson...
… was a good pick. No one could have predicted he’d get hurt the way he did.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
really?
in his 1 full season, he went 3-6 with a 4.11 ERA with 12 of his 14 starts at A and AA. He was a bad draft pick. It wasn’t like he ozzed tools like an Oliver Perez or anything. He made Greg Hibbard look like Randy Johnson throwing. We remember 2 different players.
Check your facts again
Baseballreference.com doesn’t have minor league stats from 1990, which was the year he was drafted.
But I have an old Bill James Annual from 1991 with the numbers.
Dickson threw 119 innings for Arizona in 1990 and struck out 141 batters. The Cubs then sent him to the NY-Penn League where he made three starts and had a 0.53 ERA with 15.4 K/9. Then they sent him to Peoria, where he had a 1.51 ERA in five starts and had 13.6 K/9.
Then they moved him to Charlotte in AA and he made three starts. He had a 0.38 ERA, struck out 28 batters and walked only three.
Finally, the Cubs brought him to the majors but guess what? Between his time at Arizona and ripping his way through the minors and to the majors, he’d thrown over 250 innings in 1990. I bet you can guess what happened. He blew his arm out.
Dickson was a great pick and a great prospect. He was abused by the Cubs farm system so badly he should have filed a malpractice lawsuit.
So yes, you are remembering a different player—one who didn’t pitch in 1990 because baseball-reference.com’s minor league stats only go back to 1992. The guy you are looking at had already blown his arm out.
...and Tim Wilken isn't exactly lighting the world on fire either
Jim Hendry is definitely accountable. Since 1996 he has played a hand in the Cub player development system. The results of his leadership and labor over the years is abysmal. The biggest thing that has done in the Cubs over the years is the fundamental inability to develop major league positional talent. And the record in terms of pitching is not great either.
You can’t keep going out into the free agency market and buying your way out of a talent void. Even the Yankees and Red Sox with their deep pockets have been heavily reliant on a quality farm system to get them to World Series Championships.
There hasn't been enough time to draw a conclusion on Tim Wilken.
I believe Wilken’s first draft was 2006. It will be several more years before we see how many of the players drafted in 2006 become major league players and how they develop in the majors.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Mar 26, 2009 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Also
In less than 3 full yrs, we already have a major leaguer in Samardzija and Donaldson provide us Rich Harden, without having the benefit of 4 picks in the 1st two yrs. Losing our #2 pick both in 06 and 07 and losing our 3rd/4th rounders in 07.
MLB drafting has got to be the hardest of them all.
I don’t envy those that make their living doing it.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
Cubs need to stop evaluating so much on "upside"
An organization with such a wretched record of developing talent should not be inclined to go with high school picks in high rounds. Case in point is picking Josh Vitters over Matt Wieters. I FAR prefer the Cubs to be going after college ballplayers who carry a bit more certainty than does high school talent.
Wieters is going to be a star in the majors. Vitters? He hasn’t even played A-ball yet. While his future remains bright, the history of the Cub organization works disinctly against him ever even making it.
Vitters
wasn’t taken over Wieters because of his “upside.” Wieters has plenty of that. He was taken over Wieters because of Wieters contract demands.
by Josh Timmers on Mar 26, 2009 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions
The Cubs never move college players as fast as they could or should.
Now, with Soto here, Wieters would be blocked at catcher. But with his bat, would they have considered moving him to another position? Probably not.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
No
but they could have traded Wieters to Cleveland for CC Sabathia last season. Don’t know if that would have made a difference in the playoffs.
by Josh Timmers on Mar 26, 2009 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Would would have won a game maybe.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Mar 26, 2009 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, CC is a pretty good hitter.
"That little kid at second base - he is after a job, isn't he?" ~ Lou Piniella, 3/9/09
Could he have played RF in September and October though?
Can’t see him lumbering around the OF, but as pinch-hitter option, I like it.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Wieters = any minor leaguer in abseball jsut about.
I bet we could have gotten david price. Or maybe madison bumgarner. Or alderson and mazzaro. Or Colby Rasmus. Or CC Sabathia. Or anyone really. That kid is got sick projections. Only one comparable really is what prior did in the minors. And without injuries god only knows. Wish we could get Strasburg.
4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42
Actually, I think it is the perfect time to go upside early in the draft
At the end of the day, talent matters and you have to gamble at times. Look, we’re in a win now mode and the reality is, few top picks move fast enough to reach the majors in that first year. Thus, we should be drafting for the future. Our system, simply put, doesn’t have enough upside.
Now, I’m focusing on upside and not HS or college. You take the best talent possible early and hope to develop them. For example, the Pawelek situation was unfortuante, as we messed around with his mechanics, but I’d do it all over again
Everyone wants a system that is, top to bottom, great. But what we have now is a win now team in the majors and a lack of upside in the minors. Loosely speaking, I’d go with upside early in drafts, followed by some college players in that, roughly, 3rd through 8th or so rounds, before trying to go for some overslot guys.
Strongly disagree
Ever since Dallas Green left the Cub minor league system has been a trainwreck. CLEARLY the strategy of drafting on “tools” and “upside” has failed, and failed miserably. I am far more inclined to pick conservatively in the top rounds. There is no organization in baseball who can expect to win World Series without a good pipeline of homegrown positional talent. Even the Yankess, Red Sox and Dodgers owe much of their post-season success to having a quality and reliable farm system they could draw on. Jim Hendry can’t keep filling voids in free agency. And if you look at the track record of the Cubs in trying to fill voids via free agency, it has been both costly and of dubious results. Fact is Cubs have dished out a crapload of dough on free agents who have been disappointing to say the least.
Especially if every signed FA gets a no-trade clause
Jim Hendry can’t keep filling voids in free agency.
"I knew we were in for a long season when we lined up for the national anthem on opening day and one of my players said, 'Every time I hear that song I have a bad game.'" - Jim Leyland
basically, you are agreeing with me ... you do realize that all three of those teams
are willing to draft a bunch of hs guys right? Yankees and Dodgers moreso than the Red Sox, off the top, but I haven’t looked in awhile.
Again, my focus is on upside and talent. I don’t care HS or college. What is going to happen with this organization in a few years when our core is old. I agree … you simply can’t fill the voids through FA, you have to draft talent. You basically are arguing to “play it safe” early in the draft – like the Pirates have (and they’ve drafted college guys after college guys that were all projected to be safer talents, many busting).
Short of it is, talent is the name of the game. The attrition rate for college players may not be as high, but it still exists.
It all comes down to money-
The Red Sox and Yankees spend above slot money on numerous low round draft picks every year! It allows them to fill their pipeline even though they often lose top picks by signing free agents.
It is a major flaw in the system b/c they are not penalized like they should. They simply draft several guys in later rounds who are probably 1st or 2nd round talents but have stated they are going to school. Then they tempt them with the all mighty dollar. A couple of them go for it and boom you have your top pick.
Scouting Depts
It has been said for years that the Cubs have one of the smallest staff for scouting in MLB
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
will the ricketts family change this?
i really hope so
That's the very first thing they should change.
They don’t need to get rid of people — just ADD staff.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
add quality staff
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
this has actually changed already
in recent years. it’s not like the cubs have the biggest scouting department, and while i don’t track what other teams do in that regards, the cubs scouting has gotten not only bigger, but wider.
and, he says optimistically,
with the david patton hunch,
we could have done much worse
Direct from High School draft pciks
this just goes tho show you how drafting prospects directly from high school is a huge risk. this isn’t the nba back when lebron or kobe could just come in and dominate. mlb is arguably the hardest major sport to get to, considering there are all the minor league levels to get through.
its a bummer looking at the players in that draft. there were guys like Delmon Young, Nick Markakis, John Danks, Lastings Miledge, Conor Jackson, Chad Cordero, Chad Billingsley, Carlos Quentin.
Looking at that draft hurts.
It's not too far from the NBA...
Did Kobe come in and dominate like you said? You must be forgetting how he averaged 7 points a game and shot 40% his first year in the league. It took him 4 seasons to even average 20 points and 6 seasons to become an elite player. Lebron James is a once-in-a-lifetime player but he could only manage 41% shooting and 20 ppg while also being a league leader in turnovers. Hardly coming in and dominating, correct? You must have a selective memory.
Drafting high-schoolers is always a risk. Does anybody remember NBA HS draft picks Korleone Young, Leon Smith, Ousmanne Cisse, James Lang, Ndubi Ebi, or Robert Swift? How’d Darius Miles work out? Kwame Brown, anyone?
Just like in the MLB, the NBA had its fair share of busts and flameouts, but organizations continually scouted high school action because there was always a chance a KG or Dwight Howard was out there. The Cubs shouldn’t ignore high school players as long as they acknowledge the risk involved, which I’m sure they do.
Free Ronny Cedeno
It's funny
that you talk about how risky high school kids are and then you mention Delmon Young, John Danks, Lastings Milledge and Chad Billingsley, who were, you know, all drafted out of high school.
by Josh Timmers on Mar 26, 2009 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Montanez
Is apparently doing well in the O’s system. He’s not a kid anymore, but has reinvented himself as an outfielder and is, gulp, competing with Felix Pie for a roster spot.
http://dempseysarmy.blogspot.com/2009/03/montanez-vs-pie-not-first-meeting-nor.html
An Exercise
Only looking at first round. Using 4 years as the first class to look at, as anything less isn’t enough to complete the picture, and even with 4, you can’t definitively write off a HS yet.
2004 MLB Draft HS Matt Bush, Mark Rogers, Homer Bailey, Chris Nelson, Neil Walker, Billy Butler, Scott Elbert, Trevor Plouffe, Greg Golson, Phillip Hughes, Steven Waldrop, Blake Dewitt, Eric Hurley
2004 MLB Draft College Justin Verlander, Jeff Niemann, Phil Humber, Jeremy Sowers, Wade Townsend, Thomas Diamond, Jered Weaver, Bill Bray, Stephen Drew, David Purcey, Josh Fields, Chris Lambert, Glenn Perkins, Landon Powell, Richie Robnett, Taylor Tankersley, Matt Campbell
2003 MLB Draft HS: Delmon Young, Chris Lubanski, Ryan Harvey, John Danks, Ian Stewart, Lastins Milledge, Jeff Allison, Matt Moses, Brandon Wood, Chad Billingsley, Eric Duncan, Daric Barton
2003 MLB Draft College: Rickie Weeks, Kyle Sleeth, Tim Stauffer, Nick Markakis, Paul Maholm, Michael Aubrey, Aaron Hill, Ryan Wagner, Brian Anderson, David Murphy, Brad Snyder, Connor Jackson, Chad Cordero, David Aardsma, Brad Sullivan, Brian Snyder, Carlos Quentin, Mitch Maier
We can go further back, but that will do for now. What’s the point? The point isn’t that drafting one or the other is safer. Rather, the point is that the hit or miss ratio still exists no matter who you draft. The name of the game is talent. Taking a college guy simply because you think he is safer isn’t the right move. If you buy his ceiling as quality, along with him being safer, then sure. But the attrition rate still exists.
Nothing from nothing here....
….. but Matt Bush, a Padre number pick from a few years ago, and who was arrested right after that as a teenager in a Peoria, AZ barfight, was DFA’d by the Padres earlier this year and ended up with Toronto, Within the last week, Bush was arrested again, this time in El Cajon, CA, for harassing and beating up some high school lacrosse players. I kid you not.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Here...
I guess the warrant was recently issued, the lacrosse incident was in Feb.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
yup
the padres felt forced to take him that year from a monetary perspective. Bush is a clear bust, as is Rogers. Bailey/Nelson/Walker/Plouffe are barely hanging on. Butler’s iin the big, and Elbert looks like he’ll be soon, although neither have been as good as expected, for different reasons. Golson/Hughes are nice talents, Hurley’s hurt, and Dewitt is a decent player who was rushed. Waldrop, off the top, no idea.
but the college portion hasn’t been that much better for 2004. At least, with most of the HS kids, you can dream for better. The college guys, not so much. Safer, sure, but drafting middle relievers/end of the rotation starters are sort of eh. And in Niemann, Humber, Sowers, Bray, Purcey, Lambert, Perkins, Tankersley, that’s what you have. Of the top, no idea on Campbell right now. Townsend/Diamond have to reach the bigs first, and I don’t like either’s chances of making it as a starter. Weaver is a decent, albeit overhyped, starter. Powell/Robnett look like busts. Fields looks passable, leaving Drew and Verlander from that year as the guys that have really met expectations so far.
2003 high school class looks better than the 2003 college class, in terms of first round.
Again, this isn’t to say drafting one or the other is better, but rather, to say that you draft talent, particularly when the system, like ours, lacks impact talent.
The other reason the Padres took Bush
is that he was NOT represented by Scott Boras. Under the stewardship of John Moores — at least for the last 5 to 6 years — no drafting of players by Scott Boras, no signing of free agents in the Boras stable. Mr. Boras was a hated man in that organization. The Cubs may have had some drafted players not pan out — but, I assure you — the Padres are much worse off in this department.
They don’t have the cash the Cubs do to make up the difference. Perhaps their new academy in the D. R. will bear fruit in 3 to 4 years. That might be the legacy of the tight-assed Sandy Alderson.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Mar 28, 2009 10:31 PM CDT reply actions
there's already some hope in the system
the AA team looks very intriguing this year. Lower, there’s some raw Latin American assets they have, some of them likely in A ball this year. Gonna take some time, but if they are patient, the Latin American scouting could be a huge asset for the organization. Some really, really nice, albeit raw, pieces.
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