New Lineup Suggestion
by cubs199235 on Apr 11, 2009 11:28 PM CDT
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PrintNow that Soriano finally has his first home run of the year that wasn't a solo HR, I feel the need to express this opinion of mine. I've been thinking of this for quite some time and I think it would work great for hitters like Soriano.
Here is my suggested lineup (all players healthy):
Soriano - LF
Fukudome - CF
Ramirez - 3B
Bradley - RF
Lee - 1B
Fontenot - 2B
Soto - C
Pitcher - P
Theriot - SS
I think this would work great for the Cubs because Soriano would get to hit leadoff, but he would also have someone to drive in the second, third, fourth (and more) time around the order. Tony LaRussa, arguably the best manager in baseball, uses this method and he has coached some amazingly successful teams, even when the talent hasn't been there. Theriot is a waste down in the 8 hole. In the 9 spot, he acts more like a 2nd leadoff hitter, rather than just another 8 hitter. Can someone please explain to me why this is wrong?
Also, I have always thought that Ramirez should bat in the three spot over Lee. In 2008, Derek Lee only had 90 RBI's batting in the 3 spot of the highest scoring team in the NL, not to mention he led the league in double plays. I like the way the lefty-righty rotation is working, so I chose to leave Bradley in the 4-spot.
Does anyone have any objections to this lineup? If so, why? Please let me know. Lou just doesn't have the fire he used to have.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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pitcher in the 8th spot
Where is there any proof that having the pitcher in the 8th spot creates more offense than the 9 spot? At best you are maybe looking at just a handful of runs over a full season. Where statistically the pticher is going to come up a handful fewer times over a season hitting 9th. Its a wash at best.
And why are we conviced that Fukudome is now ‘fixed’ after 4 good games?
Still way too early to see how the season is going to come and what adjustments need to be made in the batting order.
Oh, trust me when I say...
that I have as little trust in Fukudome as everyone else. I wanted Fontenot batting in the 2 spot, but things have looked good as is. Still, I wouldn’t be surprised to see someone else batting 2 by the end of the year.
I dont consider these adjustments in the order. This is what Ive wanted since spring training.
Also, Theriot batting 9 will give Soriano way more oppurtunites for RBI’s then having a pitcher there. I don’t see how you can say it is a wash. The difference in the number of AB’s a 9 spot gets compared to an 8 spot is minimal.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
so where is the proof
That batting the pitcher 8th gets you more runs over the course of the season?
If the 8th spot is only getting minimally more at-bats than the 9th spot how is the production going to be that much different? You’re still going to have a near automatic out in the lineup whether they are hitting 8th or 9th
yeah
I swear that doing the pitcher hitting eighth thing ends up hurting the team. I promise if you do that the pitcher will come up every single time with runners on second and third with two outs.
www.talkingchicagobaseball.blogspot.com
Why is it the standard?
I’m not picking sides on this issue, because truth be told I used to bat my pitchers in the 8th spot in all my Playstation games.
But I am curious why the pitcher hitting 9th is the standard? When Ruth pitched, did he bat 9th? Why did managers decide “This is where my pitcher will bat”?
it produces the most runs
generally you want the better hitters higher in the lineup because the higher you are in the lineup the more ABs you get. the pitcher is almost always the worst hitter in the lineup. so he bats last to get the fewest ABs.
the pink hat guy is my father
the other side of it being
if the pitcher bats sooner,
won’t’cha hafta pinchhit for him more often, overexposing your bullpen?
i’d consider it a desparation move that you use to bust yourself out of a slumpor something. if it works, it works, but ned yost did it.
"so where is the proof"
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 12, 2009 6:19 AM CDT up reply actions
+1
this proves my point a little bit, but still, I think the Cubs would make up even more runs because of Soriano batting leadoff. I don’t remember who the Cardinals had batting leadoff when LaRussa started using this method, but I can guarantee that he wasn’t as good as a power hitter as Soriano is.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
i hate how every little thing he does
that is in any way unique gets hailed as some sort of genius innovation. even when it’s something ridiculous and wrong like putting schumaker at 2nd base.
it’s a good thing he didn’t cut someone’s life short whilst driving intoxicated.
OOC, why was that wrong?
Very curious … they didn’t have another option really, and weren’t inclined to spend. Well, Jarrett Hoffpauir is at AAA, but he’s not really a full-time guy. Add in their OF jam, and why was it wrong to try Schumaker there? It might not pan out, but I’m just wondering why it was ridiculous and wrong? I actually thought it was a good gamble on their part – Schumaker was a former IF, and 2nd base is a position that they can be found at the deadline.
Why is putting Schumaker at second
Wrong? It’s a great move, because now that can start one of their top prospects, Colby Rasmus, in right. It’s not like they have another second basemen.
"Check the magic of a winning season and there are always reasons beyond the talent." Ned Colleti
by wrigleyrocker12 on Apr 12, 2009 8:19 AM CDT up reply actions
Um, because Schumaker isn't a second baseman?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
It was ok
For the Nats to move Fonzi to left?
"Check the magic of a winning season and there are always reasons beyond the talent." Ned Colleti
by wrigleyrocker12 on Apr 12, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Left field is a much less demanding position than 2B.
I take it you wouldn’t want Soriano back at 2B now, would you?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
To be honest
I’ve pondered the idea as well, but largely only when Zambrano hits. I think my rationale is slightly bit different – whereas your focus would be more on setting Soriano up, my focus for a switch when Z pitches would be to give us a better shot at driving in some more runs.
That said, I don’t expect either to happen, and I’m perfectly fine with it as Theriot is a better bet than most of our pitchers to drive in runs.
Listen...
You need to understand a couple of things. Foremost being that Lee is the only player in that line-up besides Soriano who is suited to be a #3 hitter. Why? It’s simple. Ramirez and Bradley are seeing the ball better right now, and seem better suited to the #3 spot, so why not put them there, right? Wrong. A #3 hitter needs to have good wheels, be a contact hitter, and have a modicum of power. Both Ramirez and Bradley have long histories of leg problems, esp. Ramirez. Do you really want Ramirez or Bradley to go down trying to beat out a ball to first just to keep an inning alive? NO. So carp all you want about how Lee should be dropped down and Ramirez or Bradley moved up- but it is just not a sound, logical, baseball move. That is why Piniella has not done it. Use your head. Additionally, we know that Soriano isn’t moving out of the lead off spot, and with the way he is hitting so far this year, I don’t want him to, I want him to get as many at bats in the game as possible, don’t you?
I won’t even address moving Theriot into the #9 spot. Not a good idea, and it’s not going to happen anyway.
As far as Fonty moving into the #2 spot? No. We need his bat down in the line-up, simply for his sneaky power & scrappy speed. Moreover, we need Dome hitting in the #2 spot so that he continues to see more fastballs… Pitchers are going to be crapping their pants once Lee starts hitting doubles. Opposing pitchers will have no choice but to try to gas Dome, esp. with Lee, Bradley, Ramirez, and Soto hitting behind him. Enough said.
I'm a truth teller, I'm a risk taker, I'm like Johnny Cash - I walk the line...
by Jimmyeatworld on Apr 12, 2009 3:47 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
i'd like to see them crapping their pants
on the mound. espn replays. i luv it.
the cubs get the nickname ‘the pantscrappers’.
I don't mind Lee in the
3 hole, as long as he stops grounding into DP’s.
"Check the magic of a winning season and there are always reasons beyond the talent." Ned Colleti
by wrigleyrocker12 on Apr 12, 2009 8:20 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm not looking
at what has happened this year so far. It is ridiculous to judge a team based on their first 5 games. I haven’t liked DLee in the 3 hole since last year. He had one good year and hasn’t lived up to it since.
And yes, I can’t wait until he starts hitting doubles, which appears to be his signature thing.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
Rec'd even though I don't agree with everything you write there, but it's well argued at least in regards to Derrek Lee.
In regards to Theriot, I think you’re reading this post as another slam on him instead of someone who thinks his OBP can be put to better use after the pitchers’ out instead of before it. (Personally, I like having Theriot bat 8th because it lets the pitcher bunt him over instead of his poor percentage stealing attempts.)
Derrek Lee is good.
Having Theriot being bunted over is a good point
Just acknowledging you opinion, but I still think Soriano is given more oppurtunities for RBI’s if Theriot were to bat 9th instead.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
"#3 hitter needs to have good wheels"
David Ortiz, Carlos Quentin, Joey Votto, Victor Martinez, Bobby Abreu, Lance Berkman, Manny Ramirez, Mike Sweeney; all are #3 hitters without necessarily good wheels, some are downright slow. There is no reason why Aramis, arguably our best hitter, cannot hit 3rd.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Apr 12, 2009 6:08 PM CDT up reply actions
I have said this many times
and always get the same “but he is too slow”: bs reply. It is not as if DLee is a speedster
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
Exactly...
And I don’t think Gathright would beat out the tailor made DPs that he hits into.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Apr 12, 2009 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions
*Lee that is
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Apr 12, 2009 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions
You missed the point entirely...
Aramis doesn’t have good wheels, (i.e. legs). He has a long history of leg problems, look at the sentence in the middle of the paragraph. It reads, “Both Ramirez and Bradley have long histories of leg problems, esp. Ramirez. Do you really want Ramirez or Bradley to go down trying to beat out a ball to first just to keep an inning alive? NO.”
I'm a truth teller, I'm a risk taker, I'm like Johnny Cash - I walk the line...
by Jimmyeatworld on Apr 12, 2009 11:57 PM CDT up reply actions
you could say that about any spot in the line up
and yes, I want to see a player making their salaries, being paid to hustle and win games, to run hard. If they get injured running hard to break up a DP, then they likely were close to being injured running hard to catch a pop up, or get to a ground ball out.
Of course I never want to see an injury, but you are incorrect in the hustle argument, since they should hustle on EVERY play, no matter if it is a liner to the gap, or a ground ball to the pitcher, since you never know what will happen. You cannot play any sport with the fear of injury making you half ass it ever.
And does batting 4th or 5th guarantee that he will not have to try to break up a DP with hustle?
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 13, 2009 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
You don't get it...
The reason that Rami doesn’t hustle all the time is simply b/c sometimes it’s not worth the risk to his legs. Of course you want players to hustle all the time, but in some situations, it’s fairly obvious that even if you bust ass, you still are going to get thrown out. Players, (i.e. Ramirez), simply are not worth the risk that is inherent in the game of baseball. It’s not fear of injury, it’s knowing your limits and playing accordingly. It’s smart, it’s risk management.
I'm a truth teller, I'm a risk taker, I'm like Johnny Cash - I walk the line...
by Jimmyeatworld on Apr 13, 2009 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions
You are paraphrasing Dusty Baker....
Who once said “You cannot hustle on every play” and guess who he was commenting about…ARam for not running a ground ball out.
He could get injured hustling in the field, so we hurry up and ship him to the AL to DH so he cannot get hurt chasing a fly ball down the LF line (Aram), according to your logic.
Which I say horse patootie in response to. I want hustle EVERY play, I am not Dusty Baker, and will not make excuses for not giving 100%.
Now you do not get it. No matter if you bat 1 or 9 there are ground balls that you have to hustle on to try to break up a DP on, it is not solely the 3 hitter who has to break up DP’s. This is what deflates your attempt to debate about why not to bat him in the 3 hole. If you want to remove hustle from his AB, I got the best idea on that. Bench him so he does not have to run at all, then we can all sit comfortably knowing there is no chance of an injury while giving 100%.
If a player strolls down the line, I for one (and I am sure I am not alone) will flip out about him not hustling. For the salaries they make, hustle should not be a problem, or option, it should be an automatic.
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
I am not paraphrasing anyone...
I have seen players attempt to run out a ball, that is obviously an out, and end up injuring themselves and hurting the team. It is not worth it. I understand you want all out hustle on every play, every game, every ball. I’m telling you I want our best hitter in the line up for 155 plus games, not just 100 or less b/c he tried to beat out what is obviously an out.
So, let’s disagree. Okay?
I'm a truth teller, I'm a risk taker, I'm like Johnny Cash - I walk the line...
by Jimmyeatworld on Apr 13, 2009 8:11 PM CDT up reply actions
+1
players need to be hustling at all times
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
Lee hasn't been the same hitter
since breaking his wrist in 06. Look what happened to Sandberg after a similar injury.
If I’m Lou, tonight would be the perfect time to play Hoffpauir at 1b and sit Lee.
I agree what you said about Lee...
but by the end of this year, Hoff will get more playing time in RF than anything.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
I could see
Lee getting a few days off during the dog days of summer in July or August to allow him to be fresher come September and October
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
What is the point of this post? Has the Cubs offense struggled
over a long period of time? Are they in a losing streak? Are they having trouble scoring runs over an extended period of time? Since the answer to none of these questions is yes, this exercise is a waste of time.
We are less than a week into the season and you are proposing making changes to a lineup to a team that is 3-2 in the first week of the season on the road. This is silly and ridiculous.
If you are proposing making changes to the lineup because you don’t like the way DLee is hitting after 5 games, you don’t know much about baseball. Managers evaluate players, espeially veteran players who have produced in the past, over weeks, not days. Lou isn’t going to change the lineup unless he feels that the team is in a prolonged slump. DLee has hit the ball well in many of his ABs this year, he’ll get his hits. Milton has one hit this year. Why don’t you propose batting him eigth and DLee ninth? You are wasting time and space. Stop this already.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 12, 2009 9:54 AM CDT reply actions
Once again...
I am not suggesting these changes because of player performances through 5 games. I have wanted this lineup since Spring Training or earlier.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
Again I repeat, why would you make the changes if the team is winning? Do you seriously
think a major league manager is going to change the batting order for a team that has won 3 out of 5 games on the road in the first week of the season? If the teams goes on a losing streak because they don’t score runs, then you suggest lineup changes. Until then, this discussion is pointless because there is zero chance of anything changing. You don’t like DLee in the three hole, we get it. But Louis going to give him every chance to succed. He’s a veteran ballplayer that has earned the right to find his stroke. Accept it and move on.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 12, 2009 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions
Why settle for a .600 WP
when you could be winning 7 out of 10 games?
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
I'm still waiting for the evidence that changing the
batting order at this point makes the team win 7 out of 10.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 12, 2009 7:07 PM CDT up reply actions
theres no exact evidence
my point is that theres always room for improvement, dont settle for something when you think you can do better
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
It's your opinion that leaving Dlee in the #3 hole is settling
for less. That’s where we differ. You assume that changing the batting order is going to automatically improve the performance of the team. You have no proof of that. It’s your opinion. It may be my opinion that the team will get worse if you change the order and that opinion hold just as much water as yours.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 14, 2009 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Let's let some dust settle for a few more weeks
I can see now Lou is going to do the extended spring training thing just like he did for the first 2 months of 2007. Now, I’m not saying there’s gonna be this explosion in a game like he did in June that year, or base throwing, dirt kicking etc. But I do expect to see him make some wholesale changes and let the chips fall as they may. It will be good to see as this will help determine the direction the team takes heading towards the NWT deadline.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
+1
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
DLee's RBIs from 2008
Is it not relevant to Lee’s RBI totals who was hitting in front of him in 2008? The OBPs in front of him were 3 of the 4 lowest in the Cubs’ lineup last year. And of those three, you have to additionally remind yourself how many times Soriano drove himself in and how many times Theriot got caught stealing. Lee’s 2008 was disappointing, but his RBI numbers aren’t the numbers to cite.
Derrek Lee is good.
RBIs are very deceptive.
its all about OBP and SLG. more so SLG in the context of original poster’s RBI argument for Lee. i don’t feel like looking them up right now.
the pink hat guy is my father
jeez
well its hard to make an arguement went you don’t want to back it up with some stats.
Anyway, Ramirez had an OBP of .380 in ‘08, compared to DLEE’s .361 (two points ahead of Fukudome). Ramirez slugged .518 compared to Lee’s .462.
DGU, that is a good arguement and you backed it up with baseball-reference. Still, I like DLee out of the five hole.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
You are making a good arguement but I talke with Lou and he said to forward you his suggestion box location
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
?
Sorry, that makes no sense.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
Lou is not ever taking fan line up suggestions
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
obviously...
just thought id post it… it clearly has opened a pretty big arguement
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
I'll put the over/under of lineup FanPosts this year...
at 34.5. And I’ll take the over.
As for batting the pitcher 8th: it’s really not a big deal. Most figures have it at what, 1 run per season improvement? It’s not a stupid thought, but it has marginal effects on the season.
Free Ronny Cedeno
34.5 by All Star break?
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
Interesting discussion about the pitcher batting 8th...
I’m in no hurry to be making any line up changes currently and I recognize your concerns about DLee and his double plays. Unfortunately, it happened more often that any of us wanted last year.
A majority of what I have read about the pitcher batting 8th conclude that the results are not significant.
Here are a couple of other articles about the topic:
Mark Pankin’s Presentation at the Sabermetrics Meeting
The changes in stats result from your 1-2-3 hitters getting more RBI chances at the expense of your 6-7-8 losing runs.
YES!!
but I view this as different for the Cubs, because Soriano has more potential to drive in people compared to the 6-7-8 guys scoring… if that makes any sense.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
Derrek Lee needs to bat 6th or 7th
It’s just as simple as that. Fact is he has been in somewhat alarming decline for awhile now. And it might also be time to get Micah Hoffpauir into the lineup at 1st base once or twice a week.
Ah, but these were
special sarcastic BCB points; once you get 50 of them, you can redeem them to make a satire of a satire of a satire fanpost.
Derrek Lee is good.
+6
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
I've never fully understood...
Why Soriano continues to maintain the leadoff slot. He’s a power hitter; he refuses to be anything but. And his placement in the order should reflect that. I would rather see someone like Theriot in the leadoff slot.
by cubbie.b.elle.. . on Apr 21, 2009 11:52 AM CDT reply actions
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