The Double Play

by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 17, 2009 1:08 PM CDT

What exactly defines a double play?

The past two games Derrek Lee has been on the batting end of a strike out / caught stealing twin killing, but it does not seem to be recognized as a Double play in the stats (or is it?). If this is not a double play per stats, then I ask why not, as it would seem to be two outs on a hitters AB. This could be a stat that is over looked if it is not tracked or included as a double play, I would think.

I did a quick search on the MLB website for an exact definition of what a double play is, but it was not listed, and being at work, I cannot access many sites that are "blocked" to see if I could find one (cue the great people of BCB).

This is not meant to be a LEDGE JUMPING, BASH DERREK LEE, START HOFFPAUIR thread.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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I too do not know the official defination of Double Play,

but I think our concern is the “GIDP” or Grounded into Double Play. Most other double plays are the fault of baserunning, or some other mental mistake. But, when you are a baserunner on first with less than 2 outs, that batter has to get the ball through the infield. D Lee has had his share of circumstances where he does not.

"I won't be like A-Rod" - Z, 3/17/09

by Ihatethecards on Apr 17, 2009 1:18 PM CDT reply actions

but wouldnt watching or swinging and missing strike three

with the hit and run on base be jsut as bad as a GIDP?

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by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 17, 2009 1:31 PM CDT reply actions

if the hit and run is on it should be

the problem lies with how could we judge this and keep a stat on it? It would be near impossible to know if the hit and run was on, if the runner was allowed to go on anything, or if the runner was going to avoid the double play… I’m all but 100% sure that it is not a double play on a batter’s stats if he strikes out with the runner going and the runner gets thrown out and I don’t think it should be

by renke81 on Apr 17, 2009 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions

By the same token...

Lee could hit a fly ball that’s deep enough to advance the runners, but because of a baserunning blunder, he gets a DP.

The stat is GROUND into double play.

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by Worf on Apr 17, 2009 1:41 PM CDT reply actions

can you find the definition?

Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.

by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 17, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions

and a double play

no matter if ground out, line out, opo out, or strike out all have the same result and should be looked at not just GIDP

Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.

by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 17, 2009 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions

I do not think that is a double play

That sounds like a base running error where he did not properly tag-up, or just ran too slow and was thrown out. to me, that one is not on the batter.

"I won't be like A-Rod" - Z, 3/17/09

by Ihatethecards on Apr 17, 2009 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions

double play (dou·ble play plural dou·ble plays) noun

according to the below link

Definition:

baseball play putting out two players: in baseball, a play in which two players are put out

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861689318

this would mean that a strike out / throw out or a line out throw out are double plays Worf.

but the rule book states (without defining what a double paly is)

(17) Number of force double plays and reverse-force double plays grounded into; and
Rule 10.02(a)(17) Comment: The official scorer should not charge a batter with grounding into a double play if the batter-runner is called out due to interference by a preceding runner.

10.11 Double And Triple Plays
The official scorer shall credit participation in a double play or triple play to each fielder who earns a putout or an assist when two or three players are put out between the time a pitch is delivered and the time the ball next becomes dead or is next in possession of the pitcher in a pitching position, unless an error or misplay intervenes between putouts.
Rule 10.11 Comment: The official scorer shall credit a double play or triple play also if an appeal play after the ball is in possession of the pitcher results in an additional putout.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/official_scorer_10.jsp

Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.

by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 17, 2009 1:58 PM CDT reply actions

The point is that all DPs

Should not be charged to the batter. A fly out double play is entirely the fault of the baserunner and/or base coach.

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by Worf on Apr 17, 2009 2:06 PM CDT reply actions

and if you read my initial post for the topic

I do not ask that, i ask about this one in particular

The past two games Derrek Lee has been on the batting end of a strike out / caught stealing twin killing, but it does not seem to be recognized as a Double play in the stats (or is it?).

Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.

by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 17, 2009 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions

Dude...

YOU JUST SAID:

and a double play no matter if ground out, line out, opo out, or strike out all have the same result and should be looked at not just GIDP

Relax.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Apr 17, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions

I am relaxed hombre

Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.

by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 17, 2009 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions

More relaxed than you are , Dude

by wennington4 on Apr 18, 2009 1:24 AM CDT up reply actions

What if there's runners on first and second

and there is a botched double steal where somehow both runners are thrown out? Is that a DP charged to the batter?

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by Fukudometer on Apr 17, 2009 2:48 PM CDT reply actions

NO

Assist to catcher (1) and put out to which ever infielder(s) make the tag. There can be few variations on who would get the assist for the second out. Batter would remain in the box, unless if the botched double steal ended the inning. In that case the batter would lead off the next inning.

If I am incorrect I would hope someone could correct me. That way we both will learn.

"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"

by wild bill on Apr 17, 2009 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions

Double Play

I think of it like this…

When I think of a double play, I think of it as the result of a batter making two outs because of one action.

If a runner is thrown out while the batter strikes out, the runner is at fault because he is in control of his steal attempt, not the batter.

That’s how I look at it.

by TheHawkRules on Apr 17, 2009 2:54 PM CDT reply actions

true

but would it be good to see the trends for a batter showing the success rate of hit and runs with him, as well as the number of times the hit and runs for a batter that lead to strike out / throw out?

Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.

by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 17, 2009 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions

Now that's a different request

There is validity in wanting to know the success rate of hit-and-runs (hits-and-run?) but the one problem is that we are more at the mercy of the team for producing those stats, because only they know when it is on.

We CAN track what a guy does when the runner is moving and what happened. Does he swing and miss? Does he swing and hit a foul, ruining a great jump? Does he take the pitch? Does he hit a liner, resulting in an easy double-play?

And is the runner safe or out?

From there, you can get an idea of the guy’s bat control and ability to protect the runner.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Apr 17, 2009 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions

maybe i did not word it well, while at work

but my first paragraph does state that this is a stat that might be over looked.

The past two games Derrek Lee has been on the batting end of a strike out / caught stealing twin killing, but it does not seem to be recognized as a Double play in the stats (or is it?). If this is not a double play per stats, then I ask why not, as it would seem to be two outs on a hitters AB. This could be a stat that is over looked if it is not tracked or included as a double play, I would think.

Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.

by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 17, 2009 6:11 PM CDT up reply actions

I believe

it is recorded as a team double play. Good one.

"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"

by wild bill on Apr 17, 2009 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions

only stat i know recorded from ti

is a K and a CS but it still is a DP by definition.

Is this the 9th wonder of the world?

Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.

by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 17, 2009 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions

Upon

further thought, I agree. I was just thinking that as well. But what the hell, let us create the 9th wonder of the world. You in?

"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"

by wild bill on Apr 17, 2009 6:21 PM CDT up reply actions

I am game

Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.

by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 17, 2009 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions

What now?

It is like Kramer in Seinfeld. “Okay this is what we are going to do. We are going to create the 9th wonder of the world. Yes the 9th wonder Jerry. We are going to make sure that a throw him out strike him out is going to become just that”.

"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"

by wild bill on Apr 17, 2009 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions

good question

Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.

by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 17, 2009 6:55 PM CDT up reply actions

See

top of the 9th for Cubs – Cards game on 04/17/09

"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"

by wild bill on Apr 17, 2009 4:35 PM CDT reply actions

I was just scanning to see if anyone mentioned yet.

Nice.

But I’ve always inferred reading DP as synonymous with GIDP in that it is the fault of the batter. A strike em out/throw em out shouldn’t be solely on the batter’s shoulders because the runner can be blamed for a bad jump. Now, a hit-and-run can be harder to judge (did the runner do a bad job or did the batter fail in attempting to make contact) as well as measuring its intent so that’s prolly why they don’t.

remember
Sammy Jankis

by neverAcquiesce on Apr 17, 2009 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions

I always

thought a double play occurs when two outs are registered on one play. It does not matter how the outs occur.

"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"

by wild bill on Apr 17, 2009 5:06 PM CDT reply actions

A DOUBLE PLAY is a play by the defense

in which two offensive players are put out as a result of continuous action, providing there is no error between putouts.
(a) A force double play is one in which both putouts are force plays.
(b) A reverse force double play is one in which the first out is a force play and the second out is made on a runner for whom the force is removed by reason of the first out. Examples of reverse force plays: runner on first, one out; batter grounds to first baseman, who steps on first base (one out) and throws to second baseman or shortstop for the second out (a tag play).

Another example: bases loaded, none out; batter grounds to third baseman, who steps on third base (one out); then throws to catcher for the second out (tag play).

source

"I knew we were in for a long season when we lined up for the national anthem on opening day and one of my players said, 'Every time I hear that song I have a bad game.'" - Jim Leyland

by flachimesa on Apr 17, 2009 10:42 PM CDT reply actions

how is that different than a strike out thrown out

since that is a continous action of the pitch for strike three?

just curious. the more i think about it the more i believe it to be a double play, just not one that is kept for stats, which boggles me more and more. if i am a manager i want to know if a player on either team has a history of not making contact with a runner moving.

Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.

by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 18, 2009 7:50 AM CDT up reply actions

You CAN track that

Without calling it a double-play.

It is valid to know what a batter does, but I still reject the idea of saddling the guy with a double-play for something he couldn’t control.

Perhaps the caught stealing stat is where we can find the info. How many CS’s occur during a guy’s at-bats?

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by Worf on Apr 18, 2009 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions

Well...

… all CS occur during someone’s at-bat.

I think what you’re asking is, how many CS occur when another player is making an out?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Apr 18, 2009 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions

I'm guessing it's because the batter never put the ball in play

A runner that is thrown out on a botched hit-and-run is charged with a CS whether the batter swung or not.

"I knew we were in for a long season when we lined up for the national anthem on opening day and one of my players said, 'Every time I hear that song I have a bad game.'" - Jim Leyland

by flachimesa on Apr 18, 2009 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions

by my understanding

that a strikeout/throwout play or a flyout/outfeild assist play gets credited to the defense, but isn’t charged to the batter(since no clear blame can be placed on him). this is similar to a batter reaching by an error then being drivin in by a latter batter, the batter still gets an RBI credited to him but not at the expense of the pitcher since it was an unearned run.

I 'm starting to hate the NL West

by jds2 on Apr 18, 2009 9:53 AM CDT reply actions

Tonight, Soriano caught a ball and then threw a runner out at 2nd

And whether or not it’s technically a double play, Pat was calling it that. That’s good enough for me.

by chitownhawkeye on Apr 18, 2009 9:57 PM CDT reply actions

That is a double play.

Check the boxscore.

It’s not a GIDP, though, which is a batting stat (IOW, no GIDP is given to the hitter who flied to Soriano).

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Apr 19, 2009 4:34 AM CDT up reply actions

Nor should it

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by Worf on Apr 19, 2009 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions

He should appeal. That was one of the poorest displays of

umpiring I have seen in a while. The first strike call was bad but the strike three ball was ridiculous. The ball started inside and move further inside. Molina had to reach across his body to catch the ball. Eric Gregg would have called that a ball. On top of that, for the umpire to recommend suspension for the two cap bills touching was beyond absurdity. I’m sure the suspension will be reduced to a game and the attention brought to this incident should bring league action against this crew.

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by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 19, 2009 10:23 AM CDT reply actions

Two outs one play, one's dependent on the other

Strike out and caught stealing / picked off are separate plays. These are independent plays.

Fonzie’s catch and double-off, think it was 7-4, is a DP as it’s one play. The runner could not be caught off base without the batter having flied out first.

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by blackhawk24 on Apr 19, 2009 3:04 PM CDT reply actions