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Are we just beating up bad bullpens?

On Fox Sports' power rankings today, the writers remarked how the Cubs beat up a bad Cardinals bullpen over the weekend.   I don't know where I heard it, but some announcer had remarked that the Cubs have this habit of not getting to the starter nearly as much as they beat up a team's poor middle relief.  Is this really the case?  Is there any statistical way to verify this claim, either in this year's small sample size or in last year's stats, that against decent starting pitching, we often have trouble, but make up for it later in the game against lesser relievers?   

If so, that portends trouble down the road, and esp. once the playoffs begin, when you're largely facing a team's 1-3 starters and see less substandard middle relief.   Maybe our postseason struggles the last few years, in that case, could have been more easily predicted ahead of time.  On the other hand, if this claim is simply untrue and can be verified to be so statistically, I feel better about where this team is at as a whole.   Curious as to your thoughts and to see if there's any validity to this claim.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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The Yankees won 125 games in 1998

And three WS in four years beating up on middle relief.

Taking pitches, extending counts, and clogging those bases all work toward putting starters out in the 6th (or even 5th) instead of the 7th should be the goal of every team because almost every team’s middle relievers ARE weaker than their starters.

As for the statistical method you seek, simply look at how many runs are scored in the 6-8th innings.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Apr 20, 2009 2:53 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

we're beating

other baseball teams. That’s all that matters.

"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella

by drewishdrewid on Apr 20, 2009 2:59 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That was my first thought.

A lot of teams have bad bullpens. Take advantage while you can.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Apr 20, 2009 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

What team probably outside of Boston have a good bullpen? It is a huge problem throughout MLB

"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"

by Grockcubs on Apr 20, 2009 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually,

Pittsburgh and Oakland as well as Tampa Bay all have pretty good bullpens, especially Oakland.

"Why do you always point to the sky when Zambrano starts?" My girlfriend.

"You just wouldn't get it...it's a Cubs thing..." Me.

by cubs2k8isnxtyear on Apr 20, 2009 11:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

In general, starters are better

So it stands to reason that any team would have a more difficult time against starters than against middle relivers (who are generally the least good major league pitchers).

In a way, beating up on bad bullpens is a pretty important skill – if you can do that, and then manage a few drubbings of decent starters, you’re probably doing fine!

"[I]f we get a Jumbotron, I can't pull the instant replay thing on all the rookies. Every time there's a good play, we're like, 'Oh, look at the replay,' and you get the rookies to look at the scoreboard." - Ryan Dempster, 2 January 2009

by CaughtInTheVines on Apr 20, 2009 3:08 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Even though it's an off day...

…I’m finding myself having a hard time caring about this.

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by dat cubfan daver on Apr 20, 2009 3:08 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Gotta agree

if the Cubs win 11 out of 17 in October on lucky bounces, bad umpires calls and a timely outbreak of the flu in the other locker room, I couldn’t possibly care less.

Fox Sports has about as much credibility as the rest of their media team

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Apr 20, 2009 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dodgers still look very tough.

It will be a good test for the team to see a higher level of competition come to Wrigley.

by Jerry Mumphrey on Apr 20, 2009 3:09 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

are they really good?

Or are they playing a bunch of minor league teams? aka: “the NL West”

by tedinSoCal on Apr 21, 2009 6:43 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

NOOOOOOOO

Stop using your logic around here!

/sarcasm

by chitownhawkeye on Apr 20, 2009 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The fact is

At least we are getting into these teams bullpens. 2 years ago we’d never get to the bullpen because we swang at everything and Harang would throw like 50 pitch complete games against us. I like this way much better.

by BeltwayCubsFan on Apr 20, 2009 3:23 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Who...

gives a rat’s a$$ who/what we beat up on as long as we beat them. man these fanpost sometimes!!

I didn't get the players I wanted in the offseason!! Hopefully I get what I want in the Regular Season---The World Series Trophy!! Go Cubbies!!

by cubsluver22 on Apr 20, 2009 3:26 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Cubs don't make the schedule, they only play it.

You beat teams you’re better than, simple as that.

remember
Sammy Jankis

by neverAcquiesce on Apr 20, 2009 3:29 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I like to think

we are winning the games we should win

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 20, 2009 3:33 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Nothing wrong with...

…beating up on bad bullpens, thats what good teams do. If the pen is strong, even good hitting teams will struggle to score runs, thats why they are good.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Apr 20, 2009 3:39 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

no such thing as bonus points for a pretty win

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 20, 2009 3:57 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Doesn't it stand to reason......

….. that if a team is using its middle relievers against the Cubs then then they ARE getting to the starters? If they’re not getting to the starters, then at most they’re seeing the good set up guy and then the closer. Whoever said this, his logic fails.

"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008

by BeerCub on Apr 20, 2009 4:16 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Not to mention...

that the middle-relief is still part of the team. You beat the whole team and if the Cards or Brewers or whoever else is left on the schedule with “weak” bullpens have a weakness its up to the Cubs as a team to exploit it. Should they feel sorry? Not one bit.

by CubFan81 on Apr 20, 2009 5:08 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

You can only beat up on the guys you're facing.

If the Cubs are getting to other teams’ lousy bullpens, then they are either beating up opposing starters (for instance, Oswalt), or being patient and outlasting them.

There’s no doubt that the Cubs have hit “bad” pitching better than they’ve hit good pitching over the last couple of seasons – but I think that probably holds true for every team and player in the league.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Apr 20, 2009 5:10 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

This strikes me

as an argument similarly made last year when every naysayer or doubter in the media would say, “Well, look at how many times they played Pittsburgh. You can’t play them forever. Eventually, you’ll have to beat good teams,” or some variant on this theme.

Well, they did beat good teams last year. They also beat bad teams. And I fail to see how a 7-4 record thus far equates to beating up bad bullpens. Maybe next week we’ll beat up good starters instead. What’s more amazing to me is that our bullpen hasn’t been beaten up more by other teams, because from where I’m standing it ain’t too great either. What’s wrong with these other teams that they can’t pound our bullpen?

I’d wait a while to start examining stats on this season, because currently Soto is hitting .105 and Theriot is batting .400. I think it’s safe to say these are incomplete representations of both hitters.

"I'll never forget how I felt last October." ~Kosuke Fukudome

by Goodie1969 on Apr 20, 2009 5:53 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Wins are wins

I prefer the way the Cubs approach hitting the last couple of years. The object of the game is to win. Whether it’s drubbing a starter or pulling one out late against the other team’s bullpen. Their approach to hitting should vary from game to game….take pitches against the pitcher who has trouble throwing strikes, be agressive against the pitcher who throws strikes. Whatever it takes to win, against whoever is standing out there on the mound.

As far as stats/data on any subject……a wise man once said “Figures lie and liars figure.”

by Rkfd Die Hard on Apr 20, 2009 7:02 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Getting to the bullpen and taking advantage of it is one of the keys to winning baseball

So… what’s wrong with that?

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.

by SackMan on Apr 20, 2009 8:40 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

better than seeing a post about how we are being beat by bad pens

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 20, 2009 9:21 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

well, they are mightier than swords

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Apr 20, 2009 11:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He kind of teed that one up for you, didn't he?

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 20, 2009 11:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Still had to take the shot!

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Apr 21, 2009 7:29 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No.

Baseball Reference is your friend.

The Cubs are hitting .258/.359/.437 on the season, and only .235/.332/.447 against relief pitching.

by cwyers on Apr 21, 2009 12:40 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Question.

Are those splits similar for most teams? I’d think they probably are (without time to look them all up).

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Apr 21, 2009 4:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Looking at last season

In 2008, the Cubs were .354/.443/.797 in total, and .356/.424/.781 against relief pitching.

The National League as a whole went .331/.413/.744 in total and .331/.394/.724 against relievers.

So the Cubs, while hitting above league levels (obviously, being the highest run scorers), had the exact same pattern of consistent obp but a 20 point differential in slugging (higher against starters).

I also wasted ten minutes calculating that the Cubs in ’08 had 37.23% of their plate appearances against relief pitching against a league average of 33.47%. Which confirms the trend we all noticed of wearing down starters effectively – although again, you would expect if a team scores more runs generally, it would knock out starters earlier as a result.

by simonuk on Apr 21, 2009 5:31 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the numbers...

… although, I think you’re posting OBA/SLG/OPS rather than BA/OBA/SLG — I don’t think the Cubs had a .797 SLG last year.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Apr 21, 2009 8:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not to mention

a team BA over .350!

Still, the numbers are interesting in how close they are vs. SPs and RPs. I would guess that the numbers for closer-type pitchers, who don’t give up a lot of hits, would be balanced out by middle-reliever types, who tend to give up more hits and throw more innings.

"[I]f we get a Jumbotron, I can't pull the instant replay thing on all the rookies. Every time there's a good play, we're like, 'Oh, look at the replay,' and you get the rookies to look at the scoreboard." - Ryan Dempster, 2 January 2009

by CaughtInTheVines on Apr 21, 2009 8:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes you are right

Noticed that after I posted. My mistake. But still, they do tell the story.

by simonuk on Apr 21, 2009 8:50 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right.

I think the current split is another case of small sample size. It should even out as the year goes along.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Apr 21, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are we just beating up teams that are worse?

That’s usually how it works . . . if you want to be the best, eventually everyone else has a worse record.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Apr 21, 2009 7:29 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I'd say they are doing what good team do,

beating up on their opponnets weakest point. The weakest point on most teams is the middle relief and the bench.

If you can force your opponnet to expose their weakest point, you will have a great chance of winning. That’s why the change in making the starting pitcher work so hard by throwing so many pitches is so important to the success of the Cubs over the last couple of years.

Hey, it's a new century!

by cowsarecool220 on Apr 21, 2009 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

very frustrating...

without other team’s bad bullpens… this team is 4-7 instead of 7-4, and we’re calling for people’s heads and drowning ourselves in Old Styles, Lake Michigan or maybe both.

The team’s offensive approach (lineup and health issues aside) has worked in getting into a team’s bad bullpen, and will work going forward since there are very few good bullpens outside of the NL East and maybe Cincinnati, who we face now, and San Diego. The only offensive blip would be the two games against Colorado, but I’ll chalk up the six runs in two games to weather conditions.

Our own bad bullpen has put the team in a spot where the offense has had to bail them out constantly. I don’t care what kind of pace it puts them on, 7-4 is a major disappointment to me considering the Cubs have faced the soft underbelly of the National League. Seriously, the team’s they’ve faced so far have rolled over and said pet me. These are weak teams and the Cubs have struggled to beat them.

I shudder at the thought of having to go to war with the NL East with Neal Cotts, Angel Guzman, Luis Vizcaino, etc… now that won’t happen until July really, so hopefully the Cubs have righted the ship there and are playing at a far higher level… because they’ll need to.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Apr 21, 2009 2:59 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

FWIW, I don’t EVER consider the Cardinals to be the “soft underbelly” of any League.

"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella

by drewishdrewid on Apr 21, 2009 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes

they’re the toughest team the Cubs faced… and the team had to scratch out two wins and look horrible in the third game… could have been a 3-1 series win or a split… we’ll never know. I never take them lightly… want to beat them when they’re better and kick them when they’re down, but they’re a one-trick team this year. They can mash the ball, but their pitching (without Carpenter) and defense are miserable… and the Cubs had to “miracle” two wins against them.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Apr 21, 2009 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think

they’re as bad as all that.

We’ve had three of our biggest hitters in and out of the lineup. We faced arguably the best #5 starter in the league against Colorado. And we took two of three from Houston. I’m just saying, things are adequate now, and likely to get better.

"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella

by drewishdrewid on Apr 21, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow, 7-4 is a major disappointment?

They won their first two road series, split a series with the Rockies and took two of three from the Cards. That sounds like a pretty good formula for success to me.

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by dat cubfan daver on Apr 21, 2009 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you know they should be 11-0 and on their way to undefeated season

for some people to be happy. A win is a win. No matter how one does it. To worry about if we are going to lose some if we play like we did in some of wins seems to something people want to analyze… that is why there shouldnt be two days w/ out baseball this early in the season :)

"So chicks dig guys who TAKE AWAY the long ball, too? " by dat cubfan daver

by Madison Cub Fan on Apr 21, 2009 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

12-0

In 11 games . . .

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Apr 21, 2009 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If we could just get DLee out of that #3 spot, we would be 50-0 by now. Why can't

Lou see that? The #3 batter must always hit .400, have an OBP of .600 and slug .800 or he’s just no damn good. Everybody know that. If you don’t have you best hitter batting third, you will lose every game. We all know it. I am shocked that Lou hasn’t been fired by now!

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 22, 2009 12:13 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

AGREED AND REC'D, DAMMIT!

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Apr 22, 2009 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd like to congratulate

myself on a great post.

"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella

by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2009 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why thank you.

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by dat cubfan daver on Apr 22, 2009 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm welcome!

"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella

by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2009 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

he has been fired

but like in Office Space he is just not aware of it

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 22, 2009 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Now just imagine if Lou would...

…bat Theriot leadoff, drop Soriano to the middle of the order and play Hoffpauir every damn day. The Cubs would would win every game from here on and out and twice on Sundays.

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by dat cubfan daver on Apr 22, 2009 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

With Ted Lilly on the team, this was well within the Cubs' reach.

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by dat cubfan daver on Apr 22, 2009 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

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