Ryan Theriot's Lack of Skills
by aramis on Apr 23, 2009 8:14 PM CDT
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PrintHow long can this continue to go on with no changes? Game after game, our scrappy little halfling runs into outs on the bases, outs that are completely unnecessary. All of his inflated OBP is completely negated by this pathetic lack of baserunning senses. Just today, he was gunned down at second base on a play where he was out by five feet. If he was going on his own, then he needs a labotomy, and if the coaches sent them, then they truly are idiots. Ryan Theriot is simply not a good baseball player, but in order to maximize his meager skills, he must be more careful on the bases!
Another problem with Theriot is his range. Sure, if you take a quick glance at his defensive metrics, they seem to look nice. Then, take a look at his out of zone ratings. They are abominable. The man just isn't a major league shortstop. As the worst hitter on a team, he may have a place batting 9th in a Tony LaRussa type order. But something needs to be done about his lack of baserunning smarts and lack of defensive prowess, or it will continue to cost the Cubs baseball games.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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BRIAN ROBERTS IS THE ANSWER!!
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
To play shortstop?
That’s a pretty irrelevant response, and not extremely clever either.
Relevant and clever?
(1) We won 97 games with Ryan Theriot’s lack of skills lack year, as you so call it. The real “aramis” wouldn’t give two shits what you think because frankly, the left side of the field was pretty well covered with you and Ryan there.
But clearly you prefer to use subjective information, so I’ll do the opposite. FACTS, here we come!
(2) I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about his horrible defensive skills—his UZR/150 over his career at SS is 2.4, and he’s even a much better defensive player at 2B. I consider UZR to be the best defensive statistical measure we have at this point.
(3) He was 6th and 8th in AVG and OBP last year in the NL. He gets a lot of hits (or so he did last year in his first everyday season), but nearly all of them are singles. If you don’t want to “waste” his presence on base, don’t allow him to steal. He is far from the worst hitter on the team. If the goal of hitting is to not get an out and to get on base, Ryan Theriot does this.
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
His hits become outs
with his horrible baserunning. Also, your argument that they won 97 games “with” Theriot is completely hollow. It’s just as plausible that we won those 97 games in spite of his play than because of it. In fact, his below average OPS last year would lead any rational person to believe that is the case. And did I ever claim to be the real Aramis? It’s just a handle on a website, calm down.
Also, who cares about his fielding at 2B? He isn’t the second baseman, and isn’t going to be. UZR is what it is, but your consideration leads no credence to it being a good metric or not. Thanks for your opinion though.
I don't know too much about baserunning metrics...
…but Riot was 2nd in the NL in caught stealing with 13, 2 behind Jose Reyes. Blindly going off that metric alone it doesn’t seem to be that he’s a fucking train wreck at running (hell, he did steal 28 the year before). I used his fielding at the middle 2 infield positions to show that he is not in fact a bad defensive player (at either position) and is instead an above average fielder. This FanPost is a waste.
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
wOBA takes into account the run values of SB and CS
It turns out that Theriot was actually a terrible baserunner last year, due to the fact that a CS is a lot more detrimental than a steal is positive, however his wOBA was .338, which is still above average.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 23, 2009 8:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Oooooooohhhhhhhh.
Really? I didn’t know that. Should I be looking at wOBA as the best overall offensive metric now? What’s average for that? And where should I find a bit more about this?
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 23, 2009 8:59 PM CDT up reply actions
what is this building
It looks like they stuck a lot of egg-crates together to hold all of those books.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 24, 2009 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions
How could I forget already?
You just posted this last night . . .
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 24, 2009 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions
was that before
or after the shots we had?
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 24, 2009 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions
In this millenia they are publicly funded places
that use bound paper to filter dust out of the air and employ quiet people. In olden days…
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
That's league average?
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Theriot = utility player
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
Fontenot = utility player
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
Theriot was a 3.1 WAR player last year
2 WAR is around average, and Ryan Howard was also 3.1. Theriot may regress a little offensively, given that his BABIP was rather high last year, but all of the projection systems peg him to be around average with the bat.
Combine that with slightly above average defense, at least by UZR, and he would essentially be a 3 WAR player this year over a full season. That would make him a valuable player, worth over 13 million on the free agent market, and he is certainly not going to “cost the Cubs baseball games”.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 23, 2009 8:25 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I addressed the UZR in my original post
and he is not above average defensively. He can’t make the throw to first base consistently. And if you think you’re gonna find a team willing to pay 13 million for Ryan Theriot, the Cubs should be trading him immediately.
What are you talking about?
UZR measures all aspects of defense, including throwing and double play ability. Theriot’s career UZR/150 is 2.4, which is above average. I’m sorry if I trust data and objective analysis over your subjective opinion
Also, I don’t think that Theriot would actually be paid 13 million given that way too many people think like you. However, the production that he offers would cost around 13 million on the open market.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 23, 2009 8:35 PM CDT up reply actions
OOZ doesn't measure total defensive performance. That's not subjective.
UZR measures total defensive performance, regardless of how many OOZ (web gem) plays a guy makes.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 23, 2009 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Sorry, but you're cherry picking, aramis.
You can’t just take OOZ and throw Theriot’s defense under the bus – no matter how much your eyes tell you to do so.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
I developed a system called...
MESWTS (pronounced Meswits) that rates Theriot as highly scrappy, but rather inept in the field. I’m still tinkering with MESWTS (My Eyes See What They See), but it’s amazing how popular it has already become. Millions have already formed spinoffs of my system, and most metrics-challenged fans have embraced these spinoffs as fact.
Really quite interesting, to be honest.
Free Ronny Cedeno
You're clearly the next Bill James.
Can I hitch myself to your wagon? (Wait, that didn’t sound right…)
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Read that sentence again
and tell me you dont feel a little bit silly. Its baseball, people, not quantum mechanics. He was the starting shortstop on a team that won 97 games a year ago. Yeah, you’re right, he’s terrible and we’ll never win anything with him dragging us down.
by Orval Overall on Apr 24, 2009 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Teams win games BECAUSE, WITH, or INSPITE or players....
some of those 97 wins were BECAUSE of Theriot, some were WITH Theriot, and a lot were INSPITE of Theriot.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 24, 2009 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions
there you go using facts
now how can we use facts to improve our fantasy line up and make trade suggestions that will never happen?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
projection systems = crystal balls
facts: limited range, average arm (when he doesn’t double-clutch), sub-par power for a ss, not a stolen base threat, singles hitter who will have a decent average and less that.400 OBP
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
You weren't a math or science major, were ya?
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
don't try to flatter me
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
Facts
The sum of all of his offensive contributions (doubles, steals, CS, HRs, 3B, BBs, Ks, etc.) in a context neutral setting last year, made him an above average hitter. An advance and highly detailed play-by-play fielding metric, which actually measures how many runs a player saves above an average fielder at that position, measured him to be a slightly above average fielding SS last year. The sum of those two qualities + the fact that he played SS which is the 2nd hardest position to play on the diamond, made him an above average player last year.
Projection systems take his raw stats from the past few years, weigh them accordingly (most recent = more highly weighted), and then apply some regression to the mean as well as aging curves. The projection systems peg him to be around an average offensive performer. Doing the same thing with his defense (which projection systems don’t project), pegs him to be around an average fielder. Adding those two factors, and the fact that he plays SS, makes him likely to be an above average player this year.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 23, 2009 8:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Dude, I've tried. He's ignorant to statistical analysis. Don't waste your time.
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
damn
I spent like 2 minutes typing that
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 23, 2009 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions
It looks pretty!
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
it took me less time to read it
and I thank you for trying to explain to him what we all have. some people just lack the common sense God gave geese. give it a few minutes, I am sure he will post his ideal line up soon and proclaim how bad Lou is as well.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
WOW impressive..........
can you figure out how long he’s going to live?
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
let me check my crystal ball
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 23, 2009 9:03 PM CDT up reply actions
that's 1.5 words a SECOND!
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 24, 2009 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions
I might have miscalculated
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 24, 2009 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions
UZR is not a projection system.
It records data – facts – about a player’s defense performance and assigns a value to that player.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Thank you for being the voice of reason.
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
You know things are sad when
a Cards fan (albeit a well-versed Cards fan) has to come over to the Cubs blog to talk sense into the fools posting this garbage. Thank you.
Ron Santo should sing TMOTTBG everyday. Period.
by Schwa on Apr 23, 2009 8:28 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
+1
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
If I had a dollar for every time I messed up responding to the last post on a page,
I’d be able to afford that $25 million piece of the Cubs.
Ron Santo should sing TMOTTBG everyday. Period.
+1 and rec'd
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Sigh, beating a dead horse here,
but I guess if you post anything about the Cubs roster, which us fans cannot change, is definitely not allowed on this board!
Movement to make Jeff Samardzija our closer!
Had to add this to the thread.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
A PETA nightmare
in light of the 21 polo (ponies) horses that died. But I like it!
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
I forgot about that.
That was a sad event.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I bet the horse died...
because it was picked up by the tail by some Wrigley grounds crew guy.
I haz blurg: hotbeans.wordpress.com
by digitalbenjamin on Apr 24, 2009 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Would you be so bold as to claim that a player like David Eckstein is as talented as Albert Pujols?
Baseball players are extremely varied in their skill sets, and some (Theriot) seem to be lacking altogether.
they seem to
but if you actually look at the facts, you should realize that they truly don’t
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 23, 2009 8:50 PM CDT up reply actions
If he lacked skills...
…he wouldn’t be playing everyday, or at all…
by TheHawkRules on Apr 25, 2009 10:06 PM CDT up reply actions
These kind of posts
I’ll say what I said a few days ago about a repetitious post:
These are the kind of posts that make me as a Cubs fan not want to come to BCB multiple times a day.
Can we leave some of these discussions for you to talk in the watercooler at your office?
I sometimes have more logical and non repetitious Cubs discussions with Mets/Red Sox/Yankees fans at work….
And I’m only saying it about this post because it’s probably the 50th one on here about Theriot in the last year….we get it.
+1
some people need to learn that it is ok to have a thought you do not post here
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Micah Hoffpauir
would be a better conversation topic than Ryan Theriot.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 24, 2009 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions
Tangerine popsicles
Those are pretty good too.
And cinnamon raisin bagels
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
are you kidding?
Blueberry bagels are much better. Cinnamon raisin should be benched and Blueberry should be given a shot
Blueberry is a pancake --
Cinnamon is a bagel
You get all messed up, asking them to do different roles.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
DFA them for banana nut bread
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
That's a muffin
We already have a good one of those
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 23, 2009 9:13 PM CDT up reply actions
You're a Cards fan
I’m suprised you’re not putting pickles in a blender and spooning it over tapioca pudding.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
with or without mayo?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Depends on whether the mayo pitched
Then it would bat 7th
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
so we need a double stuffed oreo switch
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
worf
not only making good logical points… but also a sense of humor????
"So chicks dig guys who TAKE AWAY the long ball, too? " by dat cubfan daver
by Madison Cub Fan on Apr 23, 2009 10:11 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm thinking Worf's still giddy from confirming that his
guys swim.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Let's just hope the baby doesn't look like a Romulan . . . .
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 24, 2009 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions
see below............
your system speaks volumes
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
you're both off base on this one because...........
vivaelpujols projection system confirms that the sum of a plain bagel’s offensive contributions in a context neutral setting last year, made plain an above average hitter vs. blueberry and cinnamon
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
...and marmalade skies...
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
The worst offensive player?
Umm, he’s one of the four players that are actually hitting right now, him, Soriano, Rammy, Dome. I’m tired of everybody here dissing his defense and base running. He’s a great hitter, and a great all around player. He’s is an above average shortstop.
"Check the magic of a winning season and there are always reasons beyond the talent." Ned Colleti
by wrigleyrocker12 on Apr 23, 2009 9:17 PM CDT reply actions
You convinced me
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
Ok, everyone...
Who was your favorite Muppet?
I like the two old critics
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Is this multiple choice?
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
Nah... it can be Muppet Show or Sesame Street
No Fraggle Rock, though. I freaking HATE Fraggle Rock.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I'll go with B
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
I don't remember muppets
How about sesame street. I like the veggie-monster.
"Check the magic of a winning season and there are always reasons beyond the talent." Ned Colleti
by wrigleyrocker12 on Apr 23, 2009 9:24 PM CDT up reply actions
that's potato head
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
Elmo was when Sesame Street jumped the shark
Up until then it was a fairly hip and witty program. But then they introduced Elmo, with his nauseating baby talk and sub-Gump IQ, and it proceeded to dumb down the show in a hurry. It encourages kids to be stupid and wait for someone else to think for themselves.
Nope...
Muppet choice
I haz blurg: hotbeans.wordpress.com
by digitalbenjamin on Apr 24, 2009 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Beeker.
or Animal.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 24, 2009 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions
Ryan Theriot has made me a believer
He’s a darn good baseball player. Not only is he one of the smartest hitters in this lineup, but he knows how to play situational ball better than anybody outside of Aramis Ramirez. His defense at shortstop is also better than his critics suggest.
For those not bright enough to grasp the fundamental underpinning of a message board, please take note that "EVERYTHING I state is an OPINION."
Thank you
I am REALLY tired of everyone around here hating on him.
"Check the magic of a winning season and there are always reasons beyond the talent." Ned Colleti
by wrigleyrocker12 on Apr 23, 2009 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Ryan Theriot is a major asset on the Cubs
Not just an asset, but yes a MAJOR asset. And I just love how the critics like to compare him to David Eckstein and Craig Counsell, two players who were major integral parts to two World Series Championship teams each. And the thing is Theriot is actually a better hitter than Eckstein or Counsell ever were at the zenith of their major league existence.
For those not bright enough to grasp the fundamental underpinning of a message board, please take note that "EVERYTHING I state is an OPINION."
Ryan Theriot is an overachiever.
I’ll admit that he appears to be more of a natural second baseman, but the raw data gathered on his now well over 2,000 innings playing shortstop at the major league level indicate that he is not as abjectly awful at defense as so many Cubs fans have come to think. In fact, he’s proven that he is, indeed, a major league shortstop – better than some, worse than others. That doesn’t mean the Cubs shouldn’t look to upgrade this position at some point, but I think – right now – it’s the least of their worries. This team needs to settle down its bullpen and regain some offensive consistency. Period.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
This is ridiculous.
Theriot is 6th in the league right now with a .365 BA, has a .424 OBP (better than the likes of David Wright, Sori, and ARam), strikes out an average of once every 10 AB’s…
If you want to knock his range, and the fact that his caught stealing numbers are a little high, go for it. But to say he “lacks any skills whatsoever” makes you ignorant.
Pick on one of the many problems this roster might have…Theriot is the LEAST of their problems.
I have nothing funny or creative to write.
by Canadian Cubs Fan on Apr 23, 2009 9:23 PM CDT reply actions
Let's make a list
Lance Berkman
Carlos Lee
Ryan Howard
Carlos Degado
David Wright
Jose Reyes
Hanley Ramirez
Brian McCann
Prince Fielder
What do these players all have in common, aside from being commonly recognized as some of the best players at their respective positions? The answer is that their OPS is lower than Ryan Theriot.
It’s completely ridiculous the amount of hate Theriot gets. Yes, he has his flaws. I challenge you to find me ONE player in baseball who doesn’t have a flaw. I could maybe understand the hate if Theriot replaced a Cubs great or something, but he replaced Neifi, Jose Macias, Alex Gonzalez, Cesar Izturis, etc. Just so damn stupid to bitch about this guy.
You convinced me
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
I'll tell you what they have in common
None of them play for the Cubs.
"Check the magic of a winning season and there are always reasons beyond the talent." Ned Colleti
by wrigleyrocker12 on Apr 23, 2009 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Morganna............
slept with all of them
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
Hoff has a flaw?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
a common?
none have had dinner in my apartment
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Morganna............
slept with all of the
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
Anybody seen this Cavaliers spoof? It's excellent.
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
fail
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Damnit Tim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxQG_B0tzhs
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
no worries
i will have enough typos you can get me back happily
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Your typo kind of killed it for me....
"It's hard to win 97 games, it's hard to win the division. Our attitude is if you get in every year, you get in most of the time, sooner or later you are going to knock that door down." -- Jim Hendry
We wouldn't be having this conversation...
if Theriot was our everyday 2nd baseman.
would we?
his range and arm issues would be diminished, and all we’d really have to complain about is how he can’t steal, and he’s short.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 24, 2009 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Theriot sucks....
i am mor worried about geo right now… theriot should never be allowed to run again…
4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42
Question: Are you allowed to bring in signs to wrigley bashing players?
Not that i’ll do, i am just curious.
Um....
Theriot wasn’t out “by 5 feet” on the steal. It took a perfect throw that tailed into the runner to get him out. And I doubt very much he was on his own to steal.
and…
As the worst hitter on a team, he may have a place batting 9th in a Tony LaRussa type orderis just plain dumb.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
hey aramis
how about you dont post anything till you have a clue..
the worst offensive player on our team just so happened to have the best batting average on the team last year..
Aramis
Just like many of you guys on here, I’m a diehard cubs fan and i happen to like this site very much but sometimes these posts make me sick. You sir should choose your words more carefully. Yes! Theriot’s caught steals are a bit troubling but i highly doubt he’s going on his own, and you believe our coaches are idiots for sending him. That particular play yesterday was just an excellent throw. His range could be better but if he wasn’t a major league shortstop he wouldn’t be starting for our team.
Ryan Theriot is simply not a good baseball player
The man just isn’t a major league shortstop. As the worst hitter on a team, he may have a place batting 9th..
For you to say that this man isn’t a good baseball player, and that the guy who is leading the team in average is the worst hitter on the team. That’s just beeing ignorant, and sorry dude but you’re an idiot.
We Got This!
Easy tiger on the insults - you have every right to disagree.
Over the last three years, TheRiot has evidenced that while he is quick, stealing bases, basestealing is not one of this baseball skills.
He is a good defensive 2B and his improved OPS this year (so far) as a result of the mysterious development of two base hits is a pleasant surprise.
My problem with Theriot is more a complaint of Hendry. We have 3 second basemen manning our middle infield and someone thought Miles was such an upgrade over Cedeno he (Miles) was worth a bigger contract.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Oh please
“You’re an idiot” isn’t exactly Steve Martin material. Its not a polite thing to say, necessarily, but its not vulgar and there aren’t any curse words. And if the shoe fits…
by Orval Overall on Apr 24, 2009 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly, why say something rude like
“I disagree” or “You’re wrong” when kind phrases like “You’re an idiot” will help prove you right.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Hmm...
I think, going forward, it would be best for the Cubs to eventually switch him to 2B. I expect his UZR numbers to fall a little bit more, and it seems like his arm would be better suited at second. I would love to have a premier defensive SS, but I’m guessing it’ll be at least another year until we find one.
I’m not a fan of Ryan, but I hardly think identifying him as a problem is fair. He’s done his job thus far….I just hope he eventually settles at 2B in the long run.
Free Ronny Cedeno
I wish
they’d switch him now. Fonty has a stronger arm, HE could throw to Lee from short.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 24, 2009 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions
To be honest...
I’m still not sold on Fonty as an everyday player, although I hope I’m wrong. I’m holding out for us picking up a middle-infielder next offseason.
Free Ronny Cedeno
how about
by the trade deadline? We could let Gathwright go, open up the roster spot.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 24, 2009 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions
I'd let Gathright go right now and sign Edmonds.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
isn't it ironic?
last year, neither of us wanted Edmonds.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 24, 2009 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions
But what happens when Bradley comes back?
Or are you assuming he’s never really going to arrive?
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Jimmy
can sit the bench. And pinch hit. And we can send Hoffpauir back to AAA! TWO PROBLEMS SOLVED! :D
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 24, 2009 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions
But Hoff is to provide LH power off the bench and
back up LF, RF and 1B. Oh, wait…
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
I still say
a glove like his is made for shortstop.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 24, 2009 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions
I dunno, he could play my position in little league.
Deep left out.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Well, during the offseason, I did advocate signing Jimbo as a LH PH and 1B backup...
…so I like this idea. Because it would make me right.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
If by middle infielder, you mean shortstop,
I may agree with you. This team doesn’t need another second baseman.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Remember when they tried playing Fontenot at short?
On June 29, 2007 Mike Fontenot started at shortstop for the Cubs. He committed an error in the first inning. The next day he started at short again, and again committed an error in the first inning (this time it was the first batter of the game, who came in to score). For the second inning he and Mark DeRosa switched positions, DeRosa at short and LBR at second. Fontenot has played all of one inning of shortstop since then. Fontenot’s career shortstop totals in the ML: 4 games, 20 innings, 4 chances, 2 putouts, 0 assists, 2 errors, for a .500 fielding rate.
The above is all in the public record, so it’s not biased by my opinions on Fontenot. My recollection is that in those two games (as well as in his June 26 start at short) he looked completely lost as a SS. I think that in addition to the errors he wasn’t getting to balls that he should have. I recall the announcers of the June 30 game commenting on his poor play before the switch (it was a Saturday afternoon game against the then-first place Brewers, so it was probably a Fox national game).
Personally I don’t trust his defense much, or his baserunning for that matter, and I think if pitchers see him enough they’ll be able to avoid that sweet spot in his swing where he hits home runs. I think of him as LMS: Little Matt Stairs (a lefty with a good approach and some power who you ignore at your peril, but… not much of a defender). But I’m honestly not a good judge of these things — Al praised his baseball smarts a few days ago after he got CS at third, and Al has watched a hell of a lot more baseball than I have. His struggles at SS as a Cub have come in very little playing time. He’s had a few more chances in the minors, and there his simple fielding numbers at SS (just FP and the extremely flawed RF) look merely mediocre, not ridiculously bad… even in the minors, though, he doesn’t have much experience at short.
I wonder
what posters would suggest if the Cubs were 5-9 right now? The suggestions and tone posted thus far this year help to explain the boorish booing at Wrigley this season. People need to:
R E L A X
"Chicago Cubs fans are ninety percent scar tissue." - George F. Will
Exactly.
At this pace they will win 93 games, right on track with those of us who think the team is stronger for the playoffs, but not as much for the regular season.
Right on track? not worthy of panic
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
He's the starting SS and will continue to be. I suppose that Lou will eventually give him the
red light on the base paths. Really, he’s the same player he’s been.
I hate to do this...
…but I’m going to post a link to a recent post in another a different Cubs blog blog that addresses the Chicago Cubs that, I think, does a pretty good job of summing up the prickly issue of Ryan Theriot’s defense as measured by some of the more well-regarded measurement systems out there.
Up until recently, I’d written off Theriot as a subpar defender as well – until I looked at his UZR numbers. Then I read the aforementioned blog post and, well, it’s made me really reconsider everything I thought I saw on the field.
Here’s the link. Please read with an open mind.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Okay -
Let me explain, no wait, let me summarize:
Theriot has a good batting eye, but no power. He will hit for a decent average, have a good OBP and if his slugging ends the season at .8, he should be checked for flintstones vitamins.
His defense is around average for balls within range and is good at executing the double play.
I guess all is not surprising.
Theriot is a conundrum. He’s not slick enough with the glove to forgive his not being a middle of the order bat (Vizquel) and his bat isn’t middle of the order to forgive his being average with the glove (Ripken).
Theriot isn’t the problem, in fact, I like him batting 8th. I visualize Theriot leading off innings and getting on 2nd with his new 2 base hit, being bunted over to 3rd by the pitcher and either Soriano or Dome driving him in.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
I like your visualization.
Let’s hope we see a lot of that. Soon.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
As you can tell, I'm taken by
this opposite field gap hit for a double little Scraptastic has shown. At the very least it will keep other teams from shifting.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
I realize the 21st Century shortstop is increasingly expected to hit for power...
…so, yeah, in the best of all possible worlds, Theriot would be a middle of the order bat. But the Cubs don’t really need a middle of the bat – they have plenty (at least theoretically).
And your scenario is fine with me. Bat him low in the order, get him into scoring position and get him in. Again, I’m not saying the guy doesn’t have shortcomings (ha, no pun intended). I’d just like people to, if they haven’t already, not just buy into the idea that he’s a horrible defender just because everyone keeps screaming and yelling about it.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
He's not horrible.
I find myself frequently disagreeing with those claiming he’s great. He’s flawed, but servicable. I would prefer an above average shortstop rather than average and have Theriot/Fontenot either split time or battle for 2b.
Wasn’t there a contingent of people believing he deserved All Star consideration at SS last year and were putting him up on the list near Pheralta, Reyes and Hanley?
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
I don't recall too many people saying he was an All-Star shortstop defensively.
I recall a lot of people saying “He’s hitting over .300! He should bat lead off! Oh, and he’s scrappy enough to play shortstop!” Most of his supporters seemed to be willing to swallow his alleged defensive shortcomings just to keep his bat in the lineup.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
I remembered chatter that
he should be included. But I’m old and delusional on my best days.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
I have clicked on this link
with DELICIOUS ANTICIPATION!
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
Oh, well.
I think you’re overstating his suckitude. Yes, he’s got range issues. Yes, he can’t throw very far. Yes, he shouldn’t be stealing. But he CAN hit, and he’s even starting to pull the ball.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
To the original poster...
I’m drawing on my pony league experience here, but when I got on base I would look over at the 3rd base coach as he was giving out the signs. That is what told me whether to attempt a steal or not. If I were to be thrown out attempting to steal, I would come back to the bench to a series of high-fives, as all the teammates fully understood that it was the coach’s decision to attempt the steal. Getting caught when sent by the coach wasn’t going to get anyone benched. Not going when sent, however, WAS a problem.
Your argument that Theriot’s CS% makes him a bad hitter or “ballplayer” is purely asinine. Lou is still learning how to use him. The fact that he bats in front of Soriano, Lee, or the pitcher, is always going to leave him exposed to a CS when Lou sends him.
by Jerry Mumphrey on Apr 24, 2009 11:03 AM CDT reply actions
These aren't pony league guys
sometimes, they decide to steal on their own. You’d think Lou would have figured out that Riot can’t steal, so I infer that he’s going on his own.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 24, 2009 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions
He's hitting .365. He has been caught stealing twice. If you think that makes him a bad ballplayer
I’d like to know what you think a good one is.
Micah Hoffpauir
obviously.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 24, 2009 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions
very clean.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 24, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions
who else, of course
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
How are you dealing with yesterday's game, Clutche?
I imagine this has been a very hard time for you.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
ROFL
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 24, 2009 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Dearly beloved selves
we are gathered here together to mourn the loss of Micah Hoffpauir’s mitt..
wait, he found his mitt and then he lost it again?
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 24, 2009 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions
[CITATION NEEDED]
------ TheRiot Squad ------
by RightFieldSucks on Apr 24, 2009 3:04 PM CDT reply actions
Oh if only
I could get to XKCD at work there is totally a comic for that…
Oriole by nurture. Cub by marriage.
There we go
Thanks for picking me up.
Oriole by nurture. Cub by marriage.
Baseball teams only want SS who have great skills.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 24, 2009 3:15 PM CDT reply actions
of course they do
They also want SPs who have great skills, 1B who have great skills, 3B who have great skills, OFs who have great skills…. .
Who are the elite SS’s in baseball now that you think we should go get? Hanley Ramirez? Of course, I’m sure he’s free if someone can just find his number.
Pretty much everyone else in the league is compromising on one thing or another — the guys with great D can’t really hit, the guys with great hitting are compromised defensively. Theriot doesn’t stand out at either side, but you’ve got blinders on if you think he’s half as bad as you routinely describe him.
by Orval Overall on Apr 24, 2009 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I think he's a great....
2nd baseman.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 24, 2009 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions
and I may as well say it now because I've been meaning to for a long time
That avatar is pretty much the most annoying thing on this site, I really hope you change it. To translate into your terms, one might say its the Ryan Theriot of avatars.
by Orval Overall on Apr 24, 2009 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions
I guess you should flag every post I've made then...or at least email Al about it.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 24, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions
why would I do such a thing?
I’m just telling you I find it annoying. You are free to ignore me or follow my suggestion.
by Orval Overall on Apr 24, 2009 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions
The MOST annoying thing?
Wow. I don’t think it makes the Top 100.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Is this a joke?
I’m assuming it’s not, so I’m going to go through and point out each instance in which you’re being borderline delusional:
Game after game, our scrappy little halfling runs into outs on the bases, outs that are completely unnecessary. All of his inflated OBP is completely negated by this pathetic lack of baserunning senses. Just today, he was gunned down at second base on a play where he was out by five feet. If he was going on his own, then he needs a labotomy, and if the coaches sent them, then they truly are idiots
Two caught stealings. So by game after game, you mean two. There’s not a stat for being caught taking an extra base on a hit, but I’ve watched every game this year and only remember one instance of that.
Another problem with Theriot is his range. Sure, if you take a quick glance at his defensive metrics, they seem to look nice. Then, take a look at his out of zone ratings. They are abominable. The man just isn’t a major league shortstop
An earlier link clearly discredits this. His zone numbers hover around league average. I’m not sure where you get abominable.
As the worst hitter on a team
Worst power hitter, maybe. Had the highest BA this year and is top ten in NL so far this year. This part is just ridiculous to say.
Look, we get that you don’t like the guy, but if you want to be taken seriously, you should base your claims in some sort of fact.
------ TheRiot Squad ------
by RightFieldSucks on Apr 24, 2009 3:16 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
He did have
another CS yesterday so that would be 3 for the year. (Stats run a day behind it seems). But overall you are absolutely right.
Im guessing after all of this the author has to be regretting the “worst hitter on a team” statement, I dont know what metrics he is looking at, but not the ones that matter.
Also I think baseball prospectus does have some metrics for getting thrown out taking an extra base. But they say that Theriot added .05 of a run with his base running this year. Far from the team worst. (Dome has nearly -2). Link
Oriole by nurture. Cub by marriage.
your right
I was counting on the stats being a day behind, I guess it pays to check the game logs
Oriole by nurture. Cub by marriage.
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