Marmol vs. Ramirez
by cedarpip on Apr 27, 2009 10:35 AM CDT
76 comments
I was listening to a Chicago sports radio station after both Carlos Marmol and Aramis Ramirez went down with injuries this weekend. The radio guys were talking about how the biggest blow in the world would be to lose Aramis, the Cubs have no backup and his bat is just too valuable to lose. They, in effect, were saying losing Ramirez would be a lot worse than losing Marmol.
This is the type of thinking that has always boggled my mind. Winning is all about pitching, period. Fontenot certainly doesn't have the bat that Ramirez has, but who can seriously replace Marmol on this roster? Nobody. On his best day, I'll take Marmol over Ramirez anytime. Marmol is a game changer that can singlehandedly shut entire teams down in crunch time in a game.
The Cardinals have a rookie playing third right now in place of Glaus and they seem to be doing fine. Why? Pitching.
Pitching. Pitching. Pitching.
You can all go off on me now.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Apparently this is now the official way to end every post: "You can all go off on me now."
I see where you’re coming from “Good pitching beats good hitting,” but I think that’s less the case when you’re talking about a reliever who only plays 2 innings a series compared to a position player who plays all 27.
Plus, you could look at it this way – who is the replacement player when Aramis goes down – Aaron Miles. When Marmol goes down, Heilman takes his role and Samardzija takes Heilman’s. I think the drop in quality from Aramis to Aaron is steeper than the drop from Marmol to Samardzija.
Derrek Lee is good.
by DGU on Apr 27, 2009 10:39 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
agreed
losing an everyday player — especially one who produces as much as Ramirez — is always “worse” than losing a pitcher.
However, I’d prefer that NEITHER of them be injured.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 27, 2009 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can all go off on me now...........
gee I wonder why he would say this
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
by Clutche on Apr 27, 2009 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which is worse?
Trick question…losing both sucks. Hopefully they’re good to go this week. THought I read somewhere that they may be ready tonight.
I have nothing funny or creative to write.
by Canadian Cubs Fan on Apr 27, 2009 10:49 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
If one had to go down for an extended period of time.........
let’s pray it’s not ARam
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
by Clutche on Apr 27, 2009 10:55 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Aram
I put him as our second worst to lose for an extended period beyond Soto.
It’s not what we have to replace him on our roster as much as how hard it would be to find someone who could do a decent job on the trade market.
Jay is our Quarterback. I REPEAT JAY IS OUR QUARTERBACK. Did I mention we have a Quarterback who happens to be named Jay?.
by cubstoseriesby100 on Apr 27, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno, Soto
vanished for a while, both on the bench and in the field, and the results have been mixed.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Apr 27, 2009 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hill really stepped up.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 27, 2009 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree and
Soto hasn’t produced with any consistancy while playing either.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Apr 27, 2009 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Koyie would like to think he did a good job covering for Soto
and I would agree
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 27, 2009 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Koyie shouldn't have gone 12 days without a start
Soto’s been ice cold, why not switch things up and stick with the hotter hand?
by madcow256 on Apr 27, 2009 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 27, 2009 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
because you gotta give
Soto at bats to help him get back in the groove.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 27, 2009 7:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
each team could be different
For the Cubs, at this current time, I say ARam, since our bats (not including yesterday) have been quiet. If it were last seasons Cubs, Marmol, since we had a lot of offensive production elsewhere. Next week this answer could be completely different.
It also would depend on the extent of the injuries (who is out for how long).
The question is a trick question without all the x factors considered, such as (for a few examples):
1. How long will either be out?
2. What is the injury to each?
3. Will the injury be reoccurring?
4. What is the possible production of others in the line up?
5. Who is replacing them?
6. What does the schedule coming up look like (ie if we have three off days in the next two weeks the bullpen arm is less a loss than if we have no off days for the next three weeks)?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 27, 2009 11:04 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You know,
I’ve never seen a pitcher score a run from the mound. Good pitching keeps you in games, but only hitting wins games. Given the choice between having lights out pitching or scary good hitting, I personally will take the hitting. (You can all go off on me now.)
How long should we give sig lines at the bottom of the comments?
Bradley watch -- out 7 games of 17
by znohitter on Apr 27, 2009 11:27 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I wont go off
but the Z NO HITTER is better than scoring a run, since it allows none.
just pointing out the irony, as there is nothing wrong with either side of this coin (good hitting/good pitching)
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 27, 2009 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
Z could have lost that game, with a walk and some errors, unless we scored runs. Still woulda been a no-hitter.
:D
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 27, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
smart ass
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 27, 2009 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's
intelligent buttocks to you! :P
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 27, 2009 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mr Intelligent Buttocks?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 27, 2009 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
except when I'm wearing a tux.
then it’s “His Lordship”.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 27, 2009 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
being a bill collector during the day
I wish to be called Mr Buttocks Exit Ramp (ass hole?) then as well. deal?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 27, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
indeed.
let’s not shake, tho. I have to wash my hands.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 27, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Our curriculum has no place for the teaching of intelligent buttocks.
Take your spaghetti monster nonsense elsewhere, mister. This is a website for serious baseball discussion.
How long should we give sig lines at the bottom of the comments?
Bradley watch -- out 7 games of 17
by znohitter on Apr 27, 2009 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the beginning
were the Buttocks. And the buttocks pushed out the earth and the air and the seas (that was particularly uncomfortable).
And it was good.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 27, 2009 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmph.
Radio carbon dating of the fossil record conclusively demonstrates that there were buttocks at least 500 million years ago. Don’t give me your six-deuce creation myths.
How long should we give sig lines at the bottom of the comments?
Bradley watch -- out 7 games of 17
by znohitter on Apr 27, 2009 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The buttocks
help those who help themselves.
Our Buttocks
Who art in the john
Expelled be thy contents.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 27, 2009 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Our juvenile humor rears it's ugly head again!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 27, 2009 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are some asspects of this site that stink, it's true....
How long should we give sig lines at the bottom of the comments?
Bradley watch -- out 7 games of 17
by znohitter on Apr 27, 2009 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
do those who take us too seriously at times
deserve the gas chamber?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 27, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Enough with the wise cracks.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 27, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What cheek!
How long should we give sig lines at the bottom of the comments?
Bradley watch -- out 7 games of 17
by znohitter on Apr 27, 2009 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
takes the meaning of "turn the other cheek"
to a new level, doesn’t it…
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 27, 2009 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
lets put any disagreements behind us
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 27, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I gotta split...
smell ya later.
How long should we give sig lines at the bottom of the comments?
Bradley watch -- out 7 games of 17
by znohitter on Apr 27, 2009 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exsqueeze me, can I ass you all a question?
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 27, 2009 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't you turn your front on me.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 27, 2009 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
dont assume that i want to see the front or back
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 27, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the fundament of this thread is flawed
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Apr 27, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just thought I would remind everyone that we just lost 4 games in a row because we couldn't score enough runs.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 27, 2009 11:36 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
and because we could not stop the other team from scoring
hmmmmmm
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 27, 2009 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not like we got blown out every time...the 7-1 loss in Cincy was sort of lopsided, but other than that we've been in every game...
with multiple chances to score runs and haven’t capitalized in key situations. Other than Cotts and Patton, the bullpen hasn’t really been terrible.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 27, 2009 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
when did facts count
golly gee willickers there Mr SWL, cant a guy harass you without you being factual and using evidence?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 27, 2009 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather lose Marmol
Even though this wasn’t an arm injury, he was bound to get hurt this season because Lou uses him every GD time a runner gets on base. Perhaps Marmol being hurt will let Lou trust a new reliever to split time.
Aramis is our most intimidating hitter at the plate, I still think Soriano is our most valuable hitter, but Aramis is damn close.
www.talkingchicagobaseball.blogspot.com
by nji232 on Apr 27, 2009 12:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
certainly
it gives Heilman a chance to prove that he CAN do the same job. I hadn’t thought of that. This may end up being a blessing in disguise.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 27, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lou has to figure out the bullpen one way or another
and while losing Marmol hurts, it also has the potential to allow the Cubs to get 2-3 relievers groomed to fill a similar role, if necessary.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Apr 27, 2009 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
Leaning on Marmol in every high leverage situation is only going to lead to arm abuse, especially when Lou is sending Cotts out there to start innings.
Hopefully Heilman and Shark can establish themselves as useful late inning guys so that Lou doesn’t always ride Marmol.
www.talkingchicagobaseball.blogspot.com
by nji232 on Apr 27, 2009 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Might as well throw Guzman out there a bit, too.
He’s more of a 6th or 7th guy right now, IMO, but if he toss the occasional 8th inning, the bullpen becomes even deeper.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Apr 27, 2009 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would be real nice
If Guzman became a reliable late inning guy, then we have something.
www.talkingchicagobaseball.blogspot.com
by nji232 on Apr 27, 2009 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
At this point, I trust him more than Patton
but I think Lou is content to use Guzman in low-leverage situations for now and gradually work him into a bigger role, if he does at all.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Apr 27, 2009 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Patton was put into that game
to see what he would do. He wasn’t great, but he wasn’t DFA-level horrible, either. There was very little chance he’d have an unmitigated success there.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 27, 2009 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't DFA him by any stretch
but Patton certainly didn’t help himself by walking two ahead of Pujols.
But Santo made an excellent point prior to the inning getting away, in that Patton hadn’t pitched in a while, so his control would probably be affected.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Apr 27, 2009 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope he gets a chance to pitch
in Arizona.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 27, 2009 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it'd be good for him to
All the time off between appearances can’t be helpful. Plus, it might help him clear out the image of Pujols’ moon shot.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Apr 27, 2009 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is one big gripe I have with Lou's bullpen use
and my fear with the Cubs trying to hold Patton all year long.
That said, I see that Donald Veal has a grand total of 3 IP this year.
Derrek Lee is good.
by DGU on Apr 28, 2009 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One might call Lou cruel for even putting Patton in a situation like that.
He must’ve known Patton could very end up having to face Pujols with RISP. But, hey, it’s early in the season. I guess Lou figured, “Let’s put the kid in the fire and see how he responds.” I’ll give Patton points for holding it together and getting out of the inning eventually.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 27, 2009 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
*very well
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 27, 2009 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is Soriano the MVH?
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 27, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the offense clicks together a whole lot more with him around
Those runners who get on at the bottom of the order get driven in. The team has more of a swagger to it. Last season Soriano broke his finger and we played .500 ball. I don’t mean to insult Aramis because nobody on the team can drive runs in like he can, but I feel like if Alfonso is out of the lineup we just don’t have the same punch.
www.talkingchicagobaseball.blogspot.com
by nji232 on Apr 27, 2009 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that's true.
I wasn’t necessarily disagreeing with you, by the way – just curious.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 27, 2009 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm glad you did ask
i’m not sure I had a real reason until I thought about it.
www.talkingchicagobaseball.blogspot.com
by nji232 on Apr 27, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think when people say
“good pitching beats good hitting” I think it actually means good pitching on your team beats good hitting on the other team. On the same team, it’s not always the case. If anything good hitting supports good pitching and validates it in the stats with a W.
You can get off on me now.
by daeviant on Apr 27, 2009 1:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
TWSS
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 27, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Get outta here, deviant!
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 27, 2009 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
except when Ray King is pitching.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Apr 27, 2009 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, ESPECIALLY then.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 27, 2009 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone know if Ray had a boy or a girl?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Apr 27, 2009 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
IT'S NOT A TUMAH!
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Apr 27, 2009 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just like that if you say his name fast it describes what hitter are doing to him the past few years.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 27, 2009 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There see what you I did.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Apr 27, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
damn
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 27, 2009 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All star third baseman
Are always much better than relievers. Even Mariano Rivera.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 27, 2009 8:36 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Definitely prefer to lose Marmol.
A relief pitcher, no matter how good, is not nearly as important as an everyday player.
Your point about the St. Louis Cardinals “doing fine” because of pitching (and your implicit point that hitting had nothing to do with it) would be well taken if the Cardinals’ offense weren’t leading the NL in batting average, slugging, and 2nd in OBP.
In short: you are wrong.
by HereComesASpecialBoy on Apr 27, 2009 9:57 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Also
St. Louis’ replacement third baseman aren’t nearly as good as their numbers make them seem. Barden and Thurston are singles hitters with no secondary skills, and once their BABIP’s regress, they will be replacement level hitters.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on Apr 27, 2009 10:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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