Why does David Patton have a spot on this roster?
by IVYHOPESDreams on May 19, 2009 10:04 AM CDT
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PrintSo this year I continue to be confused by the way Lou and Jim are managing the roster. Leaving the bench short handed while Derek Lee, Aramis (before the shoulder injury) and Bradley sat out for 7-10 days and now David Patton. David Patton has not pitched since May 9. This is not necessarily a bad thing considering when he has pitched he has hurt the team more than he has helped. He has been INEFFECTIVE at best this year giving up 13 hits, 12 runs, 11 earned, and 9 walks in his 12 innings of work this season. How is this deserving of a roster spot? I know their has to be someone at AAA wether its Samardzija, Stevens, Hart or anyone else, but this guy needs to be returned to Pittsburgh or a deal worked out to keep him and send him to Iowa for some work.
Don't get me started on Neal Cotts...
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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It's ridiculous really
David Patton is not remotely qualified or ready to be a major league pitching AND we are a team gunning to make the playoffs. This ain’t Pittsburgh where a roster spot can be wasted on a Rule V pick. Especially when the Cub bullpen is already plenty dubious.
LOL
"If it only ends once, anything that happens before that, is just progress."
According to Buck Martinez,
The Toronto Blue Jays won the World Series with 2 rule 5 picks on their roster.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on May 19, 2009 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions
It's Colorado, not Pittsburgh.
I agree. If you’re going to have 12 pitchers, use them. If not, get another position player on the roster.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
According to Hendry, when he was berating me at the Cub Convention
“Gotta have ’em. Need 12 pitchers.”
Sure, Jim.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 19, 2009 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions
But, Mr. Hendry,
how can Lou have 15 LH bats if you spent 12 roster spots on pitching? Unless you count Z in there…
Judd Sirott is responsible for EVERYONE'S injury.
Bradley watch -- out 10 games of 36
I'd pretty much given up at that point
It was after he wouldn’t let me even finish my question of, “Did the organization talk about bringing in a leadoff man?” (NOT — “Why is Soriano leading off?”)
“Who would you get? Who’s better? Tell me tell me tell me. Furcal, he can’t stay on the field. Roberts, good luck trading with them.”
This was after he’d signed Bradley, who can’t stay on the field, and a day before he traded with “them” . . . .
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 19, 2009 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Bradley's done
a pretty good job, cmon. He got jobbed with the suspension.
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 19, 2009 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
That's not the point
Jimbo was talking out of both sides of his mouth
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 19, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions
ok.
I wasn’t there, so I can’t speak beyond your retelling of it.
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 19, 2009 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions
But you were there
And so was Daver and . . . .
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 19, 2009 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm pretty sure
the Mambochickencommittee approved my shore leave.
However, I do want to go next year. We should have a meetup.
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 19, 2009 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions
The Blinovitch Limitation Effect suggests that could be dangerous
Oh, sorry — wrong thread.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 19, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions
F*%$ Heisenberg!
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 19, 2009 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions
right thread
and i can understand that. it is the same reason that when driving down the street in a canoe with four flat tires, no one seems to know just how many pancakes it takes to get out of Lou’s doghouse
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Cubs need a dimensionaly trancendental bullpen.
Why have only 12 pitchers when you can have a few hundred sitting on one tiny bench? :p
Why is the bullpen bigger on the inside than on the outside?
A: Because it’s dimensionally transcendental.
What does that mean?
A: It’s bigger on the inside than on the outside.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 19, 2009 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions
You mean
of staying on the field, right? Other than that, sub Mendoza is not a pretty good job.
"If it only ends once, anything that happens before that, is just progress."
let me surprise
people by saying, “no, not really”
i’ve defended him because i am a ‘longview’ type. our pen usually sucks. the other 29 pens usually do too. i’d rather have a reasonably decent, cheap option as a ‘seventh reliever’ than an expensive vet.
i’d like the team to trade with colorado (not pittsburgh, veal is with them from us, same-ish scenario) with some ’organizational filler, if do-able. this week may tell the tale.
failing that, if we can’t trade him to someone for something, use the disabled list option. we can dl him for 30 days (2 stints on the 15 day dl) and still keep rights to him. he may never be any good, but i’d rather find that out than let him go to someone else than have him fluster us with a curveball if he gets good.
i don’t see enough stud pen options in our system to flush him until all options have been tried first. if ascanio was good, or the guy i can’t talk about was adequate, i’d be more willing to jettison him.
if we have seven good relievers, let him go. (preferably in trade.) if not, maybe, just maybe, he’ll figure it out.
but, no, he doesn’t belong in the majors at this juncture.
Suffice to say David Patton is best classified as a developmental project at this point
He may indeed someday become a decent or even very good major league relief pitcher. But the 2009 Cubs do not have the luxury of wasting a roster spot on a pitching prospect who is clearly not ready to be in the big leagues. If not for being a Rule V pickup then Patton would be a Double A. We’re trying to win a World Series, not serve as a defacto developmental league ala baseball purgatories like Pittsburgh and San Diego. A team gunning for the playoffs can’t afford to flush a valuable bullpen spot down the toilet. Especially when the bullpen is plenty sucky to begin with.
At the beginning of the year, I thought the Cubs could afford to keep Patton
but at this point, it’s a wasted roster spot. If the Cubs want to keep him, just send the Minor Leaguer to Colorado to finish the deal and send him down so he can get work.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Bill Potter on May 19, 2009 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions
if you DL a Rule V Draftee
can he go to A or AA on a rehab stint before being forced back on the 25 man roster?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
he can only be on the dl for 30 days
or
he has to restart the year all over again the next year.
to answer your question, “dunno”
I don't think he re-starts entirely
for instance, if Patton accumulated 100 days of ML service time this year then hit the DL, he’d need 62 days next year and then the Cubs could do with him as they wish.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Bill Potter on May 19, 2009 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions
thanks for the clarification
i tried to find the
rule V rules a few days ago
but the internets were unkind
Slight tweak to make it a haiku
I tried to find it
Rule V rules before
Internet unkind
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 19, 2009 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions
i can almost haiku without trying
thanks for the catch
At first I thought that's what you were going for!
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 19, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I had the same trouble trying to find a copy of the MLB Constitution.
If I can find a set of the rules, I’ll post a link here. (And for the record, it’s the Rule 5 draft, not the Rule V draft. Apparently, the sections are numbered with Arabic numerals and not Roman ones.)
Judd Sirott is responsible for EVERYONE'S injury.
Bradley watch -- out 10 games of 36
and if he is on the DL
when he comes off, does he have to go right to MLB or can he go to A or AA for a “rehab stint”
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
he might be able to rehab
within the 15 days, though i am making it up,
as i don’t know that i’ve ever seen the rules.
just the legend
How long do the Cubs need to keep him on the 25-man roster
In order to not lose him?
all season.
in september, the roster moves to 40. he becomes of no value then.
yabbut
you are entirely corrct.
it would be best to make a deal to keep him around. as a person who agrees with you wholeheartedly about downsizing the cubs big league budget and
as a person who pays more attention to josh’s minor league updates than a person should
i say with certainty, “the guys down there aren’t ready yet either.”
make a trade with colorado. get them someone that we didn’t want anyway. i don’t want us to get some schluppy reliever that we will owe 8 mil over two years to come in and have an ERA over seven.
then in 2011, when he has figured out what he needs to, he can be a cheap option for us
I have had enough of the Patton experiment...
He did deserve the spot out of spring training? My solution? How about a look at John Gaub who has filthy numbers at AA.. I think we are going to really like the arms we got from the indians for derosa
4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42
Gaub could work his way into our pen, as our LOOGY.
Considering Cotts’ disgusting performance… Gaub would be a nice option to try.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
i don't know that i would trust
gaub as a loogy yet. not as a rookie. all for giving him a good shot in 2010 (or september 2009 if he keeps it up.)
but, cotts is dreadful.
Peavy
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 19, 2009 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Ditka
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
The Dos Equis Guy
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Ted Lilly
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 19, 2009 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions
It's pretty clear by now...
…that if Lou doesn’t have confidence in a bullpen guy, said pitcher’s shadow shall not darken the mound. And I think it’s safe to presume Patton isn’t going to see action in any game in which Albert Pujols is a participant, which means he could go near two weeks without facing live hitters.
I thought it was a gutsy move (in theory) to take him north with the team out of spring training, but the fact that he’s a Rule 5 guy really seems to be a fatal flaw in that plan. It seems like the Cubs do have a surplus of middle-of-the-pack arms in their minor league system, so maybe Hendry can get Colorado to bite on one of them.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Colorado can have their pick of Ascanio and Hart for all I care
If they want more than that then I will have to trust Hendry’s evaluative skills. That said, I hope Hendry doesn’t try to save face and pretend Patton is more than he really might be. There’s no shame in coming to the conclusion that Patton isn’t all that hot or worth hanging onto if it comes to that. I’d rather ship him back to Colorado versus giving up too much to keep him.
As bad as Ascanio looked the other day...
…I think I’d hang on to him. I would, however, give the Rockies Kevin Hart. Although he’s apparently pitching better in Triple A now, I think Hart has had his fair shots with the Cubs and should try his luck elsewhere. Hart for Patton would seem fair enough.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
agreed.
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 19, 2009 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions
agreed
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Hart was awful in the majors
That would be a fair deal
Hey the Cubs are good again! This will be a good test of a sig jinx.
Agreed... its far to early to let go of Ascanio.
Too much promise / upside.
"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"
by AndrewJStone on May 19, 2009 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions
if it costs ascanio,
even though he ain’t “all that”, i’d shop him elsewhere or let him go.
hart, okay, but i’d think we’d have some middle reliever in daytona or project in tennessee that we could spare that they would like. i don’t think their pitching depth is that significant. but, yeah, i’m set to call it.
Get rid of him
When Z comes back he should be sent packing and we can keep Wells in the bullpen. This keeps Marshall as a starter and eliminates one of the two real problem players in the bullpen.
Cotts will hopefully be taken care of eventually.
Hey the Cubs are good again! This will be a good test of a sig jinx.
I know a guy...
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Neal Cotts has a best friend in Jim Hendry
In the same way Chad Friggin Fox does. Hendry has stuck with Cotts and paid him a lot of money for not much major league performance the last three years. Only thing I can think of is that Fox and Cotts have compromising pictures of Hendry. Either that or Hendry thinks both can be the second coming of Tony LaRussa as a manager someday.
If ever there was an occasion where i DON'T want to see some SWL art...
… its in response to something like “compromising pictures of Hendry”.
That being said… it does seem true that in just they way you can get in to Lou’s doghouse and do no right, you can get in to Hendry’s good graces and do no wrong…
"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"
by AndrewJStone on May 19, 2009 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Michael Barrett would like a word with you
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 19, 2009 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Let's interject some facts here.
No matter who you replace Patton with, there will be a reliever whom Lou only uses minimally. It will always be someone, the one he leasts trusts. He will only use that pitcher in games he thinks we are very unlikely to win. So, if the Cubs dump Patton, we’ll still have the complaint of “Why is Cotts/Wuertz/Fox/Ascanio/Hart on this roster; Lou never uses him?” At least with a Rule V guy, we get something out of the little-used 12th-pitcher bench-warmer.
Oh, and since the Pujols game, Patton’s ERA is 4.50 with 0 XBH.
Now, stepping aside from the facts for a minute. Jim Hendry’s scouts saw something in Patton and they are going to give him a chance. 12 innings is not much to go on if you’re serious about giving a guy a chance. This is also not the time to go to Colorado and talk trade about Patton. We can wait longer and get a better deal.
Derrek Lee is good.
wow, i thought i was
generous on patton. i agree with what you say, to a point. i’d wait to see what happens through the upcoming road trip. if we can go 4-2 (with or without using him), we can be on hold for awhile longer.
if we don’t have seven guys better, there isn’t much point in junking him.
that having been said, kevin hart isn’t a guy i’d want taking up innings when we have stevens, gaub, waddell, ascanio, wells, and patton around. the only reason i’d withhold sending hart to “get it done” is to save him as bait for a trade with oakland or pittsburgh. or the natinals.
btw, i’ve enjoyed the civil discussion on this one today.
too many times, i see people (in earnest) calling for a player to get dfa’d. while hendry pulled schlitter out of the eyre mess, i don’t prefer dfa’ing or releasing guys for nothing…..especially when we have no need to. it’s nice to have a relative board-wide trade value on patton. of course, the rox may laugh the offer off, but at least, ‘release patton for nothing’ isn’t the standard response now.
I don't particularly believe in Patton, himself.
There’s nothing in what I’ve seen in his stats or his limited pitching apperances I have caught on TV that impresses me.
But I fully believe Jim Hendry and his guys see things in players that I do not. And, while Hendry has his misses, I think he tends to do very well at picking up talent that will be valuable on the club. So, I’m willing to give Hendry and his scouts the benefit of the doubt on Patton.
I also agree, fwiw, that Hart isn’t my favorite, by far, of the guys on the farm.
Derrek Lee is good.
Then carry 11 pitchers
why waste a spot on a bum, call up another hitter.
Hey the Cubs are good again! This will be a good test of a sig jinx.
the 12 arm should be the
guy that comes in in touchdown games. up seven or down seven. if it were viz, howry, or some other clown, it would be the same. yeah, they’ll oopsidentally get a few decisions, but they play rarely because they’re bad.
you could go with fewer pitchers ‘back in the day’ or in the american league with the dh, but in the here and now with pitch counts, you’ll have 12. and your last pitcher better be cheap, cuz he ain’t seeing much action.
Marmol ends up being that guy half the time
Lou doesn’t use a blowout pitcher.
Hey the Cubs are good again! This will be a good test of a sig jinx.
Because Lou has constantly said he needs 12 pitchers.
I wish he could be convinced to go to 11 pitchers and to make some guys 2-inning guys. But that’s not how he operates.
Derrek Lee is good.
to be fair
who would you slate to be a 2-inning guy in this bullpen? Heilman, sure. Who else?
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 19, 2009 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not sure. I don't know what they're capable of.
Could Guzman work 2 innings? I don’t know. Samardzija certainly could have been a guy like that, but Lou basically said once he came up to the ‘pen he’d go back to mostly one inning work.
I think you have to have 2-3 guys you can count on going or 2+ innings in order for it to work. It becomes a major shift in how you use your ‘pen. But it’s been done before in baseball, and I think it can be done again.
Derrek Lee is good.
ascanio has gone 2 both times
marmol can go to (until his arm falls off)
if the game goes 14, hopefully the starter lasts 7.
you have a point, though
do we have to accept
Ascanio hitting the first two pitchers every time? :D
Marmol can go two, but his number drop a LOT in the second inning.
I wonder if Guzman could do it. You’d think Wells, as a SP could.
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 19, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Well Marmol was used for two innings last season a lot
Not as much this year. Heilman could go 2 but that could end horribly. Guzman is the best two inning bet right now IMO.
Hey the Cubs are good again! This will be a good test of a sig jinx.
This is a valid point.
I mean, barring a “miracle player” (wasn’t Johan Santana a Rule 5er?), perhaps the only way to ever get any value out of a Rule 5 guy is to stash him at the bottom of your pen for the season. As long as Lou and Hendry insist on carrying 12 pitchers, there will almost always be other options to go to.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Good point about Santana.
Yes, he was a rule 5’er. He had a horrendous year (6.49 ERA) that season.
He was quite a bit younger than Patton, though, only 21.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I think the issue is that people see the bullpen as being worse than it is (and I can relate, sometimes, till I actually look at the numbers again) and they want the “least important” player in the pen replaced with someone who will “do better”.
Right now, that guy is David Patton. Me, I think that if Guzman can solidify what’s starting to look like a good grip on his control, and keep his speed up, he’s a good alternate for Marmol. That lets you rest Marmol more (although it has to be judicious, since Marmol obviously needs regular work) and now, we’re not expecting Heilman to carry more weight than he’s capable of.
I think Ascanio goes back to AAA, and Wells takes his place. Gregg will rebound from his bad game the other day. If Cotts can figure it out, that’s fairly solid, even with Patton still in the pen.
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
He might.
He figured something out last season.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
I wish he would figure out the route to the airport.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on May 19, 2009 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions
But that would enable him to follow the Cubs to St. Louis.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Just tell him that we are playing in San Francisco.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on May 19, 2009 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions
The seem to be average in most categories
…at least from what I can tell.
IMO, what has magnified their average stats is the offense. There have been a handful of games where the O was doing nothing but then the bullpen came in and either blew the sim lead or exploded the deficit.
The walks by the bullpen do need to stop for two reasons. One, you can’t continue to walk guys late and expect to win close ballgames. 2. It is driving up pitch counts and taxing the bullpen.
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on May 19, 2009 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions
I think we're also bringing the bullpen in too late.
I could be wrong, but it seems like our starters keep getting left in for one or two outs too many, leaving our bullpen to put out the fire. And Marmol’s our only real reliable fireman. And even he has some pyromaniacal tendencies.
I think partly
that was because Lou was trying to rest the pen.
Guzman seems to be getting his control.
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 19, 2009 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions
I think you answered your own question...
Sweet Lou is sticking with his starters longer than might seem prudent because of a bullpen that instills little faith. Carlos Marmol can’t pitch in 120 games. Would YOU turn to Guzman, Patton, Cotts, Ascanio, Fox late in a tight ballgame?!? I know I sure would have big reservations.
For the most part
The pen is shaky at first and settles down after walking (or hitting) the first couple batters. I’d personally rather sit the starter when he’s running out of gas and put the relievers in a better position to succeed.
turning to Fox might be interesting
since his arm is blown up again
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
he's just improvising.
Fox is on the DL, and won’t ever pitch again.
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 19, 2009 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions
which is why
it would be interesting to see Lou calling for Fox to warm up
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Because his name is cool
David Patton. Don’t you just want that name. That’s like Chuck Norris X 2
Get Peavy already! I want my #44 jersey!
Here come the grammar police!
There is a problem with the relievers.
Their problem is they don’t throw strikes.
They’re going to need to improve if the Cubs are going to contend.
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Because...
Lou, Larry and Jimbo have a collective boner for this guy and if they won’t want him on their 25-man, they have to offer him back to his previous team…How’s dat?
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
Unless they can make a trade with the Rockies to keep him.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
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