Joel Piñeiro Turns Into Greg Maddux For One Night: Cubs 0, Cardinals 3
by Al Yellon on May 20, 2009 7:48 AM CDT
in Chicago Cubs Recaps
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PrintWho would have guessed that last night's Cubs game would end before the Blackhawks game? (That one didn't turn out so well, either.)
In last night's game preview, I said I figured it might be among the fastest games of the year because both pitchers, Ted Lilly and Joel Piñeiro, threw strikes (only 16 combined walks for the two of them in 89 innings). Lilly walked three, but it was still a good enough outing for him to win most of the time (seven innings, three earned runs). At two hours and five minutes, it was the fastest game of the year by a wide margin.
Unfortunately for the Cubs, Piñeiro chose last night to make his best start in several seasons (it was his first CG shutout since May 30, 2003), and the Cardinals shut out the Cubs 3-0, the first CG shutout vs. the Cubs since Randy Wolf, then with Houston, shut them out 4-0 last September 3.
The tone for the game was set in the first inning when Alfonso Soriano, who had led off with a single, was picked off. This is never a good thing, obviously, and who knows? Maybe the Cubs would have manufactured a run or two and got Piñeiro out of there early. Instead, the next two hitters in the first grounded out, two of the seventeen groundouts Piñeiro had. He entered the ninth inning having thrown a Maddux-like 78 pitches and threw only 92 for the game, 64 for strikes. True to his early-season form, he didn't walk anyone, and gave up only two other hits, a Derrek Lee single in the 2nd and a Mike Fontenot double in the 5th.
The Cardinals manufactured a run in the last of that inning on a single, a sacrifice and another single, and though none of us knew it at the time, we all might as well have switched over to the Blackhawks game right there. Colby Rasmus put the game completely out of reach with a two-run homer off Lilly in the fifth, the only real mistake Ted made.
That's enough about this game -- all you can say after a game like that is, "We'll get 'em tomorrow." So I wanted to use the rest of this post for a couple of other issues: first, to discuss a link that BCB reader northofwrigley posted in the preview thread regarding blackouts:
Doing away with blackout restrictions is essential in order for MLBAM to take their business to the next level of growth. Right now, MLB.TV is missing a huge percentage of the market who would not get MLB.TV simply because they don't travel and don't need to follow their team outside of their viewing area. The moment MLBAM can open the service up to anyone who wants to follow their team outside of the TV set, the size of the market that MLB.TV can go after increases dramatically.
To which I say, "Duh!" The technology exists to do this (and has, in fact, existed for many years); what, exactly, they are waiting for is beyond me. Although, maybe those of you in blackout areas would rather NOT have seen last night's game.
Finally, can you imagine the angst if, as Chris DeLuca suggests in today's Sun-Times, Mark DeRosa wound up as a Milwaukee Brewer? Personally, if the Tribe wants to trade DeRo -- get him back, not for sentimental reasons, but because the Cubs could use a player exactly like him. He may be off to a mediocre start in Cleveland, but he is a lifetime .307/.396/.468 hitter in Wrigley Field (in over 600 PA) as opposed to .213/.292/.375 (89 PA) in the Jake. (He's right in the middle of those two -- .262/.313/.410 -- in 67 career PA at Miller Park.) Seriously, Jim Hendry -- bring him back, rather than see him go to your biggest division rival.
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I usually try to stay positive but last nights game was
AWFUL. Lifeless effort in my opinion. The Brewers went in to Busch and made the Cards look so bad. LaRussa used ALL of his bullpen the night before. So either the Brewers are playing that well or the the Cubs played that bad last night. I am the first one to tip my cap to a pitcher for a job well done but I think that had less to do with Pinero being that good and more to do with the Cubs lack of patience and effort… The Cubs come in after a DAY OFF and looked like they couldn’t wait to get out of there. Game was very frustrating to watch.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
It seemed like every at bat lasted 2 pitches. Ugh.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
I got more and more angry as I watched.
Didn’t seem like the Cubs we’ve known the last 2 years.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
Piniero was flat out PITCHING last night...
… and i’m not trying to absolve the bats of their ineffectiveness, but i think “lifeless effort” might be a little extreme.
A pitcher having a great game can make a team look like that.
"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"
by AndrewJStone on May 20, 2009 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions
How about uninspiring effort?
Lots of first pitch swings/outs… He didn’t have to work. 4 pitch, 7 pitch, 10 pitch innings aren’t gonna get it done. Like I said above, I am the first to tip the cap to a well pitched game but I think the Cubs lack of patience was more of the key to his “flat out pitching” last night.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
Fair enough...
… uninspired seems a bit more diplomatic.
Again, i’m not trying to absolve the offense for its failure last night. I just firmly believe that a pitcher that is in the zone can effortlessly tear through a game and make the opponent look foolish.
Given the offensive successes of late, I’m inclined to believe last night may have been as much about Piniero doing well as the Cubs playing poorly.
"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"
by AndrewJStone on May 20, 2009 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions
the guy was in teh kind of zone he hasn't been in for five years
that’s enough to convince me that the batters’ approach had quite a bit to do with it
by WanderingWanderer on May 20, 2009 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions
You are fairly easily convinced of our teams failures...
… you don’t believe a pitcher can simply have a good day?
"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"
by AndrewJStone on May 20, 2009 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm saying the fact that he hasn't had that kind of a day since 2003
makes it unlikely that there weren’t other factors, than just “good pitching”
by WanderingWanderer on May 20, 2009 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions
That can really be kind of deceiving. If a pitcher is around the plate a lot,
hitters will go after the first good pitch they see. If a pitcher is constantly getting the first pitch over for a strike, you are putting yourself in a hole by letting that pitch go by, especially if it’s a first-pitch fastball. There is no gauantee that letting the first two pitches go by is going to increase your chances on the third pitch. If a good pitcher gets you down 0-2 on the first two pitches, you’re going to have to his pitch. If a guy is on like Pinero was last night, you have no chance if you have to hit his pitch.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on May 20, 2009 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions
I disagree...
read my posts throughout the thread and you’ll see my reasons. The swinging at the first pitch started in the first inning and never subsided. They didn’t work the counts at all to know if he had great stuff.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
This seems like a chicken-and-egg kinda thing.
Pineiro threw 92 pitches, 64 for strikes. I’m pretty sure he had great stuff last night.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Since they swung at the first strike they saw,
the Cubs never gave him a chance to make a mistake. That’s why pitches per at bat is so important. The more pitches a pitcher throws, the greater chance he will make a mistake. Just because the pitcher throws a strike doesn’t mean the batter should swing at it, particularly early in the count if it’s a pitcher’s strike.
The bottom line is the Cubs never game themselves a chance last night. At this point of the season I am disappointed with the regression the offense has shown this year. Maybe things will turn around but I am pretty concerned at this point.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on May 20, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions
That's true.
It’s just, with sinker ballers, so many of their pitches look hittable – I can imagine it becomes almost impossible to discern good pitches from ones that are going to dive toward the plate at the last minute. I just have a feeling that, if Cubs hitters had taken a few pitches, they would’ve wound up 0-2 or 1-2 most of the time anyway. Then they would’ve had to swing to protect the plate and…well, we know the rest.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
I agree.
They may very well have lost the game and also been shut-out with a different approach.
Since they chose to swing at everything, we’ll never know and that was what made watching the game so frustrating.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on May 20, 2009 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions
That was my point. It's easy to sit back and say "Don't swing at the first pitch." Some
times the first pitch is the best one you will get in the at-bat. If the pitcher is trhowing a lot of first-pitch strikes, waiting will just get you into a pitcher-friendly count. Your point about a good sinker-baller is true. It’s hard to lay off those pitches because they look like fast balls down the middle of the plate. The formula for beating a sinker-baller is to make him bring the pitches up into the hitting zone. That requires waiting and hoping his sinker is dropping out of the zone. If he has good command, he still will beat you because as you start to take those pitches at the knees, most pitchers will start to throw more fastballs and it becomes a guessing game. It both cases, the pitchers has the advantage. He was on last night and he beat us.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on May 20, 2009 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions
+1
It’s easy to look flat when you don’t hit . . . but had the Cubs scored 6 runs, we would be saying how they were aggressive in going after Pineiro
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactamundo.
Brandon Webb does this for a living. Pineiro – not so much; he just had a damn good game last night.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
But if they had looked at more pitches(prob strikes)
maybe they would have been able to get into the over taxed Cards bullpen.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
Which was my point to beign with!
Thanks Kali.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
No problem Fish
They’ve been good this year with Pitches/AB. Last night was prob an aberration.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
It's possible
But after a while, you realize that you are just starting out 0-1, 0-2, etc.
I do see your point in trying, but I see WMHG point, too.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions
There was rarely a 0-1, 0-2 count.
There was a ton of first pitch strikes because they put the ball in play… Whether it’s really a strike or not is a different story. They swung at a lot of first pitches. Which made his 1st pitch strike total very high. Yes, I know he was around the plate and yes, I know he was locked in but not working the pitcher and not working the count plays into the pitchers hand more than being behind in the count. At least then you have seen a lot of pitches and give him more of a chance to make a mistake. When you have low pitch count innings there’s less of a chance for a ball to be left up. Believe me I see and understand his point too. In my opinion, I don’t think you win very many games with that approach.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
Certainly didn't win one yesterday with it . . .
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Baseball is a crazy game...
For how bad the Cards looked against the Brewers you would have thought the Cubs could have really done some damage against a team who was a little down. I guess though, it’s not like the Cards bats came alive. They have 5 hits? Hopefully they can come through tonight and even this thing up.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
It would be
especially nice to hit Carpenter too!
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
Maybe.
Or maybe they would have only gone 0-2 or 1-2, had to protect to the plate and then met the same result. So Pineiro throws 105 to 110 pitches instead of 92.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Don't you think
that most pitchers at 110 pitches or so are more hittable than ones at 80? I’m not saying it would have made the difference yesterday, but I think it was a bad approach and not something we do regularly anyway.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
Yeah, they probably are.
As you say, let’s just hope last night’s impatience was an anomaly brought on by the greater anomaly of Joel Pineiro turning into Greg Maddux.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
if you swing at a pitch, it's a strike whether or not it really was.
When they are constantly swinging at the first and second pitch, that’s going to poison the sample size.
by WanderingWanderer on May 20, 2009 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions
good point .
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
Thank you...
… willie mays hayes’ gloves, for saying much more eloquently, what i had been trying to say all morning.
I didn’t see team a wide lifeless effort as much as i saw a pitcher in the zone. Going 0 and 1 looking vs 0 and 1 swinging is only an advantage if you believe there was a chance of the pitcher throwing a ball. Piniero puts balls across the plate, to the point that Al was predicting a short game. That all came to fruition.
The cubs have been hitting well… until i see regular evidence of “lifeless effort” i’m going to continue to believe we were made to look foolish by a pitcher with good stuff.
"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"
by AndrewJStone on May 20, 2009 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions
change "regular evidence" to "evidence in consecutive games"
… and I agree with you. Pineiro was just terrific last night. It’s only REALLY bad if it starts a trend.
Fair point.
"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"
by AndrewJStone on May 20, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Just disgusting.
To get CG shutout by this guy. Ugh.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
It's these games that make baseball...
a maddening adventure. Any team can beat another team on any given day/night.
So they lost to a AA pitcher. Re-group and get a win today.
I didn’t see the game as I was watching the Blackhawks go down 2-0 in their conf finals series.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
Exactly.
Piniero is a little better than a “AA pitcher” — in April, he held a pretty good Mets lineup to six hits and two runs.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It was the lack of patience at the plate to me...
and somewhat effort that really frustrated me. That’s not how this team plays. I think Pinero’s high pitch inning was around 15. Soriano getting picked off and then really not hustling for a foul ball where he looked to call off Fontenot, then let it drop in front of him… They just seemed disinterested to me against a team who was really reeling.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
I think Pineiro just had them off balance...
… the sinker worked, making hitters think it was hittable, only to see them hit the ball into the ground (thus, the 17 groundouts).
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
A leadoff basehit then a pickoff, in my opinion,
set the tone to a very poorly approached game.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
He looked safe, though
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 8:24 AM CDT up reply actions
I thought so too.
Pretty close though. Wasn’t blatantly obvious. I could see how the ump could have missed that though. With Molina as catcher they should know not to stray away to far and if you do be on your toes cause he is going to throw. Soriano shouldn’t have been in the situation to make it as close as it was.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
He was safe.
As BB stated at the time, he hoped that call would not come back to haunt the Cubs. Since they didn’t score, one has to think that had an impact.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
No real way to tell
It certainly didn’t help.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions
No, he was out.
Not sure what angle WGN had, but the angle on the Cardinals’ broadcast made it very clear. Pujols got him just before Soriano’s fingers touched the bag. He was out.
The angle WGN had
showed that Soriano was safe, Pujols tagged him on his right shoulder after Sori’s hand was already on the base.
"Respect" ~ Ryne Sandberg
Correct..........
………..based on the WGN perspective.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
PICKOFF....OH NO....
Well that is what we thought also…Gotta quit making these mistakes…
Soriano
getting picked off sucked. However, everyone hustled to get that ball; no one was close enough, that’s all.
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 20, 2009 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions
OK, maybe not AA
I was amazed he faced one over the minimum and had that Maddux/Leiber type of pitch count.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
I was telling someone yesterday
that the renewed rivalry between the Red Wings and Blackhawks is reminiscent of the Bulls-Pistons rivalry of the late 80s early 90s, where it took the Bulls a few times to beat the Pistons, but once they did there was no looking back.
The composure that the Red Wings have displayed in the first two games of this series is pretty impressive. Let’s hope that the Chicago crowd can get them out of their rhythm a little. Despite the outcome, the first two games have been a lot of fun to watch.
"Respect" ~ Ryne Sandberg
The Blackhawks played well yesterday.
The Wings are a very, very good team. It will take almost perfect play to defeat them.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Agreed
The Red Wings are very good. They seem to do virtually everything right and are always under control. I suppose that is a sign of a very talented and well coached team, which they are.
The Hawks have been very impressive this entire post-season. Their resilience is incredible. They are going to be a good team for many years to come. The experience they are gaining this year is invaluable.
"Respect" ~ Ryne Sandberg
The Hawks have played very well at home.
I would not be at all surprised to see them win the next two games.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
While not rooting for the blackhawks in this series and don't
usually pay any attention to local hockey, Toews is a horse. The press last year was always about Toews and Kane as a combined talent. The performance last night by Toews has be thinking Kane may be really good, but Toews is becoming great.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Toews knows how to back check and has some
more size to accomplish that. Kane doesn’t always want to admit there is ice to cover inside his blue line. Coach Q was assure he knows this better come next season’s training camp.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
That is the main thing I have noticed so far in this series
The Red Wings are playing under complete control and the Hawks have looked frantic and sloppy.
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
Veteran teams that follow "the system",
very few of them exist BTW, will usually come out on top.
The ’Hawks are extremely good for such a young team. Now if Dale can work some cap-magic over the next two off-seasons, they will be a great team for years to come.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
Thank God I got home late last night.
I didn’t have to witness what, based on the numbers, must have been the Cubs’ worst offensive performance so far this year. The credit goes to Piñeiro, no doubt, but it seems to me that the Cubs’ hitters weren’t patient at all.
On yur other topic, Al, if De Rosa ends up in Milwaukee, it will suit the Cubs fine, as payback for Jim Hendry’s awful move trading De Rosa to Cleveland. Oh, the irony!
Irony is right.
Again, I repeat: the Cubs could use DeRo right now. Why not try to get him back before the Brewers can?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Because
Hendry would be admitting would a baffoon GM he is.
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
Not necessarily.
Remember, there have been injuries. DeRosa’s presence would fill at least one hole created by an injury.
If a player LIKE DeRosa was on another team and had NOT previously been a Cub and traded away, we’d probably be begging Hendry to go get him. Just because he was sent away earlier, for reasons we have discussed, doesn’t mean he couldn’t be brought back without admitting a “mistake”.
At this point, his contract is affordable, too.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
further
mistake does not equal buffoon (or a baffoon, either). I think the buffoon would be the one who would refuse to correct the situation because he didn’t want to admit the mistake
I agree
I would love to have Dero back…he would fill a big need for the Cubs right now and never wanted him to leave in first place.
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
AGREE ....
GM is not going to admit he made this blunder….Yes they should try to get DERO but will they ??
I'll bet he makes the call.
Hell, both acquired pitchers and Miles so they have an infielder.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
No but he will get traded
Unless the Indians improve a lot in the next 4-6 weeks.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on May 20, 2009 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions
More than likely
but after a terrible start last year, Cleveland was one of the best second-half teams in baseball in 2008.
I don’t know if Shapiro will hold on, hoping that the teams turns it around in a mediocre (record-wise) division.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Bill Potter on May 20, 2009 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions
Miles and Freel.
After all, we only got three minor league pitchers for the guy. They can have two experienced veterans right back.
That would put DeRosa at third till Rami came back, with Fonty and Scales platooning at second. When Rami came back, DeRosa would go to second, Fonty and Scales back to the bench.
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 20, 2009 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Why would the Indians do that?
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Well, at the least
it would give them players to take the position.
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 20, 2009 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, but it doesn't make much sense from a rebuilding standpoint
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions
They wouldn't.
That’s a terrible trade suggestion and there’s no reason the Indians would even consider it.
Yes, but what if...
I told you that Ryan Freel is scrappy?
by CubsWin!Oregon on May 20, 2009 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
Then the Cubs could NEVER deal him...
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Give me Ty Wigginton instead
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Last I checked, he was barely hitting over .200
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on May 20, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions
When's the last time, if ever, you saw a trade like that?
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions
I am ok with not bringing him back as long as he doesn't go to the Brewers
If the choice is between him being a Brewer and trading to get him back. I say try to get him back.
"That's what you live for. You live for the opportunity and when that day comes, you better be ready," Soto said. "I tried to make sure that whenever they gave me a chance, I was ready and I knew I had to take advantage of the opportunity."
by Madison Cub Fan on May 20, 2009 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions
At all costs!
(Just kidding – sorta.)
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
There could be. It's not likely.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions
Trade
June 27, 1993: Traded by the Florida Marlins to the Seattle Mariners for Henry Cotto and Jeff Darwin.
November 9, 1993: Traded by the Seattle Mariners to the Florida Marlins for Jeff Darwin and cash.
Not the same since this wasn’t a GM admitting a mistake… but it’s one I always remember.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on May 20, 2009 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Not so fast
Those guys are all doing very well in their various levels of AAA ball. This may turn out to be a good deal after all
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on May 20, 2009 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree.
It will take a few years, but I suspect the Cubs will end up with the better end of the deal.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on May 20, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Great idea
It takes a bigger man (GM) to admit he made a mistake. I’ve always thought Jimbo had a humble side to him. One example would be to get DeRo back, or for the love of God and all things Cubbie, re-stabilize the line-up flexibility with someone else!
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
Is there a pattern?
Cubs seem to be at their worst when they are impatient (obvious, I know). Is there any pattern to the types of pitchers that the Cubs are impatient against? Here, it was a sinkerballer. It also seems that they are impatient against rookie or new pitchers (when they should be even more patient). Any other patterns out there?
actually thought they lost more often when they were impatient at the plate but...
The league avg for Pitches per at bat is 3.84. And the Cubs record when they are below the avg is 5-4. And out of those 9 games, there were only 5 close games and of those they are 2-3.
They have been a very patient team for the season and particularly in May. Outside of last night’s game.
I’ll try to break down the type of pitcher later.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
Doubt DeRosa is going anywhere
Cleveland manager Eric Wedge is on the cusp of being fired. I’m sure the massively overrated sabermagician Mark Shapiro will give the new manager time to resurrect things with the Indians before he puts out the “for sale” sign.
Good point,
probably depends which way Shapiro is leaning at any given moment on Wedge. If leaning toward firing, Shapiro probably would wait unless a trade fills what he views as a glaring need.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Never know
Their attendance is in the tank, big time. They are one of the teams that could pull the payroll plug ASAP.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
The only time I saw a team with as bad a record at the Indians
come back was the Astros and they were able to do so because they always had good starting pitching, they somehow starting scratching across one more run than the other team.
The Indians pitching is so incredibly bad and can’t be salvaged. They simply don’t have enough pitching to win.
The Indians have financial reasons that may dictate them to start selling off salary sooner rather than later.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on May 20, 2009 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Just have to tip your hat and move on
Piniero pitched very well last night and not too many teams could’ve beaten him. His location of his slider was consistent and he made very few mistakes.
Hopefully they are a little more patient with Carpenter on the mound tonight. I imagine he will be on somewhat of a pitch count. Get him out of the game, make him throw strikes and get to that bullpen.
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
They really didn't make Pinero work though...
I think their impatient approach went a long way to his success. I am trying to find pitch counts per inning. I know he had a 5 pitch inning and a 7 pitch inning back to back. I think it was the 4th and 5th…
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
EDIT: Sinker
I agree they could’ve made him work a little more no doubt but when a pitcher is locating his fastball and in Piniero’s case his sinker, as a hitter you’re going to be off balance and just hope Piniero makes a mistake, which he didn’t.
They have to be more patient with Carp tonight though and make him throw a couple 20 pitch innings just because he’ll be on a pitch count.
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
The night before LaRussa used up his bullpen in a 8-4 loss.
You would have thought they would have had the same suggested approach last night. 4 pitch innings are unacceptable. Lots of first pitch outs last night.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
That is what I found so frustrating
is that @ 7 2/3 inning point he had thrown I believe 72 pitches. Thats just crazy! Especially since the Cards had to use their bullpen the night before and had given up 11 BB’s. (not sure how many of them were given by the starter tho)
"That's what you live for. You live for the opportunity and when that day comes, you better be ready," Soto said. "I tried to make sure that whenever they gave me a chance, I was ready and I knew I had to take advantage of the opportunity."
by Madison Cub Fan on May 20, 2009 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions
I share your frustration.
The night before. Lohse had 3 walks. The pen had 8.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
btw I love that quote.
"That's what you live for. You live for the opportunity and when that day comes, you better be ready," Soto said. "I tried to make sure that whenever they gave me a chance, I was ready and I knew I had to take advantage of the opportunity."
by Madison Cub Fan on May 20, 2009 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions
Thanks...
Soto’s quote kind of echos it in a way.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
but lets hope it's many seasons he had the privilege of playing for them :)
"That's what you live for. You live for the opportunity and when that day comes, you better be ready," Soto said. "I tried to make sure that whenever they gave me a chance, I was ready and I knew I had to take advantage of the opportunity."
by Madison Cub Fan on May 20, 2009 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions
I second that!
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
I had to laugh at
Bob Brenly, at one point he said (in reference to the impatient approach at the plate by everyone on the team) “the Cubs’s team bus must be double parked outside of the stadium” LOL one up to a night full of downs. Let’s put it behind us and go get ‘em in the last 2 games of the series. Oh yeah Al, I’m cool with bringing DeRo back too! :-)
The Cubs' gave this shutout away.
Many times during this game a guy would fly out or ground out on the first or second pitch of the inning. The next Cubs player would come up, hacking at the first damn pitch, and end up getting out on short work. The third batter—who’s JOB IS NOW IS TO MAKE THE PITCHER WORK—would guess hack at the next ball thrown to him. This is little league, high school stuff. You don’t let a pitcher throw 6 or 10 pitches an inning…for the ENTIRE GAME! I was so very frustrated last night watching our team (that led NL in BB last year) apparently forget how to walk or make a pitcher work his ass off. Maddening.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money."
--Ernie Banks
Amen...
I’m glad someone else has the same view on this as I do.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
Did the Cubs have a stretch where 5 players were retired on 6 pitches?
That was my count, but I may have been seeing double.
There was one four-pitch inning.
So it’s possible.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Remind me not to compliment opposing pitcher
In the pre-thread I posted how good Piniero was. that he was an extreme ground ball pitcher and the Cubs hitters needed to be patient. From now on even if they face Greinke I will say bad things about the opposing pitcher.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
good think
Maddux is retired. :D
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 20, 2009 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions
LOL
The worst I will ever say about Maddux is that he could have dressed a wee bit better.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on May 20, 2009 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions
Speaking of Maddux
Since you are the expert, do you think he’ll ever want to be a pitching coach?
"That's what you live for. You live for the opportunity and when that day comes, you better be ready," Soto said. "I tried to make sure that whenever they gave me a chance, I was ready and I knew I had to take advantage of the opportunity."
by Madison Cub Fan on May 20, 2009 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions
Thats what I thought
but I figured if anyone would know if there is a chance it’d be her.
"That's what you live for. You live for the opportunity and when that day comes, you better be ready," Soto said. "I tried to make sure that whenever they gave me a chance, I was ready and I knew I had to take advantage of the opportunity."
by Madison Cub Fan on May 20, 2009 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions
No he says he wants to be a BENCH coach
and I believe him though I hope he changes his mind and will consider managing. Maddux has always seen the ENTIRE game on
a different level. His amazing mind applied to overall in game strategy would be incredible. I think he will take a few years doing just a little high end "special advisor " stuff, mostly for pitching. When the kids get to college I think he may come back. In fact I think the best thing would be the brothers Maddux as the Coen brothers of baseball. They would sort of be pitching coach, bench coach and manager but together. So far Mike is doing a wonderful job as pitching coach in Texas. As of now Madog is a special advisor to the Padres but with Black and pitching coach Balsey likely to get the ax he may not feel so connected to them next year. Alas I fear his dislike of cold weather will be the Braves and Dodgers will always have the advantage in getting his services.
I ran across a nice Maddux related article yesterday that I had not seen before. It is by Thomas Boswell who is one of the great
sports writers and did the best piece ever on Maddux ( which alas as in Playboy and has never been reprinted in one of his collections) Anyway a nice piece about great pitchers who as Sandberg would say " Did it the natural way"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/09/AR2008050902742.html
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on May 20, 2009 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions
I could be wrong
Maddux doesn’t strike me as the type who wants the notoriety and pressure of being the manager. As the bench coach, he could do everything he wants to do as far as input into managing the team without having to answer to the media everyday.
You are right about Mike, though, he is doing an incredible job in Texas.
"Respect" ~ Ryne Sandberg
I hear that a lot (pressure , notoriety)
but I don’t buy it. Maddux certainly has no trouble dealing with pressure and he is in fact a master at dealing with the press.
He always knew that dealing with the media and the public was part of the job. He was always polite and nearly always boring. He had most interviews set up just like batters. There were a few writers he liked and opened up to just a bit but
in fact Maddux LOVES talking about BASEBALL. He can go on endlessly on strategy. He does not care to talk about himself and that really is not a problem if he wants to manage.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on May 20, 2009 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Most people would have said the same abour Ryne and look at him now.
He even gets thrown out of games now!
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on May 20, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions
In my time here, i've gathered that you have a great appreciation for Maddux...
… could i bother you to explain the origins?
I appreciate him as well, as much as the next Cubs fan (a lot, obviously), but its always interesting to me how fans become connected to a certain player.
"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"
by AndrewJStone on May 20, 2009 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions
How much time you got ?
Ok first here is the long version ( my profile of Maddux for BCB) http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/story/2007/2/1/92435/72323
Now how was I lucky enough to become “connected” ( well obsessed really) to Maddux ? Hard to say really. Like a lot of Cub fans I developed a fondness for fearless , skinny kid pitcher who was probably a better pinch runner and hitter than he was a batter his first two seasons with the Cubs. Ironically I was living in NYC when the whole debacle of the Cubs letting Maddux go happened in 02. I was angry but I figured it was just like Buckner, Rick Monday and other Cubs I loved being dumped but unlike anyone before I just kept watching him. I could see a number of games on TBS. Somehow you could get that not only was he a great pitcher, he was a special person. All I can say is I made a better choice in having Maddux as my all time favorite baseball player than any other decision I can think of in my life.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on May 20, 2009 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Very cool...
… thank you!
"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"
by AndrewJStone on May 20, 2009 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions
Um I meant 92 of course
Wishful thinking on my part.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on May 20, 2009 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Seems perfect to me
Maddux as bench coach for Sandberg.
From what I understand Ryno gets tossed a decent amount, so it’ll almost be like having Mad Dog manage, just without the post-game interviews.
by WittyUserName on May 20, 2009 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
I would be VERY afraid in that club house
Both of those two have SERIOUS reputations for disgusting pranks. Maddux would piss on you in the shower and Sandberg
would blow up the toilet you are sitting on ( both have in fact done those things).
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on May 20, 2009 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't compliment Carpenter, please
I reminded you only because you mentioned it and my ADHD didn’t kick in so quickly I forgot to type this.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
DeRo & Wood
Wow. When the Cubs traded DeRo and lost Woody to Free Agency, I was totally bummed. I thought our loss was truely Cleveland’s gain. Well, DeRo is having a horrible start to 2009 (maybe 2008 really was his career year) and Wood gave up 2 HR’s and a triple last night in blowing a 3-run lead against KC. His era is 8+. Small sample size? Sure. Are we almost 1/4 through the season? Yes.
All I’m saying is that I don’t miss them as much as I did before the season started.
I have nothing funny or creative to write.
by Canadian Cubs Fan on May 20, 2009 9:38 AM CDT reply actions
Wood's outing was very similar to Gregg's the other day...
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on May 20, 2009 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions
I was thinking about that as I listened to Tom Hamilton describe the carnage.
What’s funny is there were fans at the Cub game that were chanting “Woody” when Gregg blew up.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on May 20, 2009 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions
DeRosa has 6 HRs and 25 RBIs. If he was a Cub he would be in 2nd place in HRs and tied for 1st with RBIs. Looks like he is having a decent year to me.
-Charlemagne
"Cubs Win!" "Yes, Sir!" - Pat and Ron, June 12, 2008, Walk off HBP, bottom of the 11th
True
However, take away his 4 for 7 with 6 RBI’s and a HR in the Indians 22-6 win over the Yankees, and his number are a little more pedestrian.
DeRo is hitting .242 with a .312 OBP and a .412 SLG…not exactly lighting the world on fire.
I have nothing funny or creative to write.
by Canadian Cubs Fan on May 20, 2009 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions
Why would you take that away?
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
if you take away the good...
take away his worst game too.
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
It's called an outlier...
… and it is, at times, justified to discount a result that clearly does not lie within the normal and / or expected results.
Or at the very least be very cautious in using results that clearly fall outside the normal distribution.
"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"
by AndrewJStone on May 20, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions
My uneducated opinion on that point is
that you can’t take it out of the equation. Those types of days, because you play do many games and each game is a microcosm within itself, happen maybe, what. 4 or 5 times a season? That’s how your personal numbers get piled up. I have a feeling for every 3 games that a hitter goes 0-4 or 0-5, there’s a 4-4 or 5-5 day. If someone plays all 162 games, there will be stretches where a hitter goes a week and a half without a hit. Then one game he goes 5-5 and the next 4-6. So, he goes 10 games without a hit and then 2 with 9 hits. Over that period he got 9 hits in 12 games. Doesn’t sound as bad when you average it out.
Like hitting home runs. D Lee this year went basically oh-for-April and this month has 5(?) already. So, do you throw out April or May? That’s why they are averages.
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
That's actually an interesting point I think...
Though maybe only to me. And it’s one that I don’t really know the answer to: How does one decide where the cut-off point for a usable, meaningful sample size is? There is, I would think, a somewhat arbitrary nature to it.
At least as far as I know, there are no hard and fast rules on what a “proper” distribution of statistics is over the course of a year. Some players are feast/famine types of players, others have an even distribution. Which I would think means that the only size that is actually meaningful is after the final game of the year
As a corrollary, I’ve often wondered if there should be a meaningful statistical distinction between players whose production comes at “meaningful points” in games and theoretically, say a guy who only produces in blowout games where his team has no chance of winning. (when the Giants had Pedro Feliz, he struck me as that latter kind of player). Though I fear this sounds too close to the idea of “clutch,” which I don’t believe in and we’ve previously talked to death. What I’m referring to is not something the player controls…it’s just something that happens.
Maybe one of the other saber guys around has an answer for me…
by CubsWin!Oregon on May 20, 2009 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions
No way of knowing where DeRo would rank in terms of RBI on Cubs as it's team and situation dependent.
You can’t put much stock in a guy’s RBI numbers and assume he would have the same amount with a different team, it doesn’t translate. His .242/.312/.412 line is more indicative of his performance this year not to mention that his defensive numbers are bad as well. Whatever this team is lacking wouldn’t be much improved by DeRosa contrary to the belief of the DeRomantics.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on May 20, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions
However...
… do you not think that DeRosa would hit better if he had Wrigley Field as his home park? He has hit exceptionally well there in his career.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
+1
Plus, I would think that with a better hitter’s lineup (the Cubs) he would perform better, or for that matter, a better team all around. A different mindset and confidence, or something like that.
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
Cleveland's lineup is actually better than the Cubs right now.
The Indians are 2nd in OBP in the AL and third in hits so that’s why he has inflated RBI. He’s been pretty awful.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on May 20, 2009 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions
His number so far are below is career norms thus I don't think Wrigley will suddenly make him better.
His numbers would probably increase some but his numbers likely will get closer to his career norms no matter where he is at. I don’t think Wrigley alone is going to bring back the Mark DeRosa we saw last season.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on May 20, 2009 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions
I wonder if...
there is any chance to DeRo back. He would give us the depth we need and I would HATE to see him goto the Brewers. I also wouldn’t mind getting Wood back either since our bull pen is the weak-link in our ball club.
-Charlemagne
"Cubs Win!" "Yes, Sir!" - Pat and Ron, June 12, 2008, Walk off HBP, bottom of the 11th
While I would love to see both
back for the rest of the season, the contract Wood signed made him undesirable within the Cub’s budget. Unless Cleveland was going to take a huge contract back, I don’t think it will work.
DeRo is in the last year of a reasonable contract, so the dollars could work, if needed.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Let DeRosa Go! Please!
He is not coming Back this year.
No, he's not
And it’s interesting that you posted the comment, given your user name.
As a fanbase, we tend to be sentimental and want to hang on to “our guys”…but a return trade wouldn’t make a lot of sense. What do the Cubs have to offer? If the Indians trade DeRosa, that means they are giving up on 2009. So they’d want prospects. Who do you trade for 1/2 season of Mark DeRosa?
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions
See above . . .
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions
See above.
But repeating, why can’t there be a first time?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I think Hendry would look foolish
Granted, it doesn’t matter what I think, but . . .
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't think he would look that foolish
The Ramirez injury changes things. But I wonder whether the Cubs could afford to pay the rest of DeRo’s contract. My guess is price, not looking bad, would stop this deal from happening.
It would also be foolish because 2/3 of a season of DeRo is not worth 3 pitching prospects.
Cleveland would take that deal in a heart beat. I’m pretty sure all of those pitchers have looked fairly good in our minors thus far. Hendry would look like a total fool if he gave them back those 3 pitchers because they are worth way more than the “great” Mark DeRosa.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on May 20, 2009 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Unless that single move helps the Cubs win this year.
I’m not a “DeRomantic” — I wouldn’t have suggested this if Aramis Ramirez hadn’t gotten hurt. I think it could be a useful move to shore up an admittedly weak bench.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I don't think he'd be a bad addition
But at what cost?
I think those 3 pitchers might be too much
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions
It would be far too much.
If Cleveland were willing to take little to nothing in return, which I doubt, then fine. It would make little to no sense to give up quality pitching for a half season of DeRosa in what appears to be a down year for him.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on May 20, 2009 7:01 PM CDT up reply actions
The thing is the biggest weakness the Cubs have is their bullpen.
It’s been well documented that the Cubs have limit trade chips. Why use any to trade for DeRosa?
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on May 20, 2009 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions
At what cost?
DeRosa is having a down year apparently so I don’t think the Cubs should give up much value for him. I wouldn’t be against picking him up if you had to give up say a Jake Fox and/or a David Patton. I just wouldn’t give up anything of value.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on May 20, 2009 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Who knows once the agreement in principle is
translated on paper for Mr. Ricketts and the banks (expected in the next couple days), he may come right out to the Cubs brass to go “do something”. That something may be to cover their asses with the 3rd base issue and lack of line-up flexibility.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
The Cub players obviously didn't listen to Lou's pregame show with Santo.
Lou was talking about how important it was for a hitter to work the count. To be comfortable hitting with two strikes. To see alot of pitches. The more pitches you make the pitcher throw, the more likely he is to make a mistake. They went out and did the opposite. It looked like they wanted to catch the Hawk game.
I agree with Al and a few others.
Pineiro pitched one of the best games of his career. Period. You can’t make a pitcher work when he’s throwing that many strikes. It really was like watching vintage Greg Maddux: When you don’t swing, it’s a strike; and when you do, the ball ends up on the ground.
We saw Jason Marquis pitch games like this. For some reason, I seem to recall a Sergio Mitre start like this in ’06. (I think it was ’06.) I kinda shrugged this one off. Just as any major league team can beat any other team on any given day, with some luck and sound execution, almost any major league pitcher can shut a team down on any given day. (I said “almost any”!)
One big positive was yet another strong start from Ted Lillly and, hey, Fontenot got a nice oppo double.
Let’s just hope the Cubs can give Chris Carpenter a rude welcome back to action tonight. I certainly don’t relish the thought of losing three straight or dropping a series to the Cards.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Mitre's start was in '05.
A 5-hit shutout of the Marlins on June 14, 2005. In his previous start he had shut out the Blue Jays for seven innings.
They should have traded him right then. His trade value was never higher.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That's the one!
I remember being sick at the time – lying in bed, listening to the game on the radio and wondering whether I was hallucinating. I think that game came to mind because someone suggested that he and Maddux switched bodies.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Maybe I'm naive
never having played well enough to advance past sloppy freshman ball, but starting pitchers that make the 25 man on a decent team have the ability to have a great day. Great pitchers have zoned in days where no hitters and perfect games are possible and lesser MLB pitchers have the rare no hit shutout.
Rebound the following night. Anyway, tonight’s more important. Former Cy Young winner returning from injury hoping to be a big part of 2009? Make certain his confidence is not rebuilt today.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Yeah, the Cubs need to hammer Carpenter tonight.
And I believe the Brewers’ relatively mediocre Dave Bush has flirted with a no-no on at least three occasions. So there’s always a chance a pitcher will put it all together for one game. As Ron Santo mentioned last night, naturally, Pineiro had to do it against the Cubs.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
It always appears TLR gets his team
motivated, especially for the Cubs.
I know a guy who pitched as high as AAA and he always said he could have dominated any team in the majors on those few days a season he was really on. It was always what they would have done to him on the other starts that scared everyone and he could never advance to make those great days the norm.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Not sure what you mean with that
When were the Cubs ever in the running for Ramirez? And who on this board would have said in 2001/2002 that Choi didn’t deserve a chance? Finally, what does sentimentality have to do with it?
(P.S. — reply is your friend)
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions
There were some ...
who felt the Cubs should sign Thome rather than going with Choi in 2003, including at least one columnist from the Sun-Times, IIRC.
Yes, I recall that
But I still am confused by Rick B’s post.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions
I think he's referring to...
…the rumor about the Indians re-acquiring Thome and Manny to do some kind of “reunion tour”-type season. But I don’t really get what it has to do with you or the Cubs.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Does he think I'm an Indians fan??
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions
time to defend your honor!
blood duel! :P
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 20, 2009 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I've been called worse . . .
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Besides, we don't want to offend Ballhawk
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Another (halfhearted) backup player idea - Alex Cintron
The Nats have DFA’d Alex Cintron. I was going to post a Fanshot on this until I looked at Cintron’s awful UZR/UZR 150 numbers. In 2,951.2 innings at shortstop, Cintron shows up as -23.6/-10.5. I was surprised at this, as I thought he was generally regarded as a decent defensive shortstop. With those numbers, I’d just as soon see Andres Blanco be brought up.
Nonetheless, IIRC, the Cubs did give him a look during 2008 ST. And he is, er, experienced at the shortstop position. Would signing him to a minor league deal make any sense? There’s still no one really backing up Ryan Theriot.
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I wouldn't be surprised to see Cintron signed to a minor league deal.
He nearly made the team last year. I imagine Hendry will give him a look.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I think you are probably correct that Blanco is better alternative than Cintron at this point.
If the Cubs thought he was washed up last year, I can’t believe they think he’s gotten any better. His numbers would seem to back that up as well. If this guy can’t even play for the Nationals then I can’t imagine he’s got anything left in the tank. I don’t see how he would be of any value whatsoever to this team. He’s not even a league average replacement. Do not want.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on May 20, 2009 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions
If I'm the Indians
And I have the Brewers on line 1 and the Cubs on line 2, the price just went up beyond those three pitchers they sent us.
DeRosa would be nice to have, but he’s not worth emptying the cookie jar for, not even to keep him away from the Brewers.
Ramirez won’t be gone the entire season. Hoff wasn’t despicable in right.
The last thing Hendry wants is to be desperate. If I’m him, I say, “Here’s Jake Fox, a natural DH, and any one of those three pitchers you sent us.”
If it’s not enough, he can throw in a second of those pitchers. If that’s not enough and the Brewers empty their farm for four months of a utility player, then more power to them.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
+1
Sometimes we don’t know who won a trade for a number of years, depending on how the young guys pan out. Maybe it was you Al or someone else that posted the #‘s for Stevens and the other two guys – they’re all having great years on their respective teams.
I have nothing funny or creative to write.
by Canadian Cubs Fan on May 20, 2009 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree with Worf.
The main reason I’d want DeRosa back isn’t for Ramirez in the short to mid term, but to fill the “who else” factor. Odds are good that one of the for fragile corners will miss time later in the season. And Frageeley is italian and DeRosa is Italian, so it’s a match.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
I'd do that too
It would be great to use Fox, a player we cannot take advantage of, to get us a player we could really use right now.
"Respect" ~ Ryne Sandberg
That's reasonable
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions
a replacement 2nd baseman won't get a premium prospect
If they were a mind to, and I doubt they are, they could go for someone like Freddy Sanchez as a rental.
Why does Aaron Miles continue to get playing time?
Might as well let Scales start until the league figures him out. Freel is better than Miles as well. There’s zero reason Miles should start over either of those guys at this point.
He’s like this year’s Jose Macias.
Maybe Lou thought he'd have some advantage over his former team.
Not that I disagree with you – maybe the Cubs could’ve manufactured a run if Scales had gotten on base. And I’m still uncertain as to why Lou isn’t giving Freel more starts at 3B and leaving Fontenot at 2B – unless Freel is already in Lou’s doghouse for some reason.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Hadn't even thought of the canine motel yet.
Could it be, or is Freel still nursing injury.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Best Year (s) Behind Him
So far in the limited amount of time that Freel has been here, he has seen few at bats. When he was with the Reds, he gave them something — it seemed like it was against the Cubs most of the time.
But the question is — why is he here? Lou really hasn’t used him and when he put him in to pinch hit he seemed clueless at the plate.
Right now Lou is rotating Miles, Fontenot, and Scales. So why Freel? A backup OF sure but not much chance of playing.
Does Fox need to get this BA up to .500 before we bring him up to be a bat off the bench?
Last night the lineup had 5 guys hitting under .220 in the lineup.
Give Fox a chance to at least come off the bench.
In Freel's defense, he really hasn't played much at all this year,
either with the O’s or the Cubs. It’s hard to say what he has left until he gets a chance to play.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on May 20, 2009 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Fox can't play anywhere but first base...
…and he doesn’t even play that position particularly well.
Ryan Freel has over 700 innings of ML experience at third base. That’s where he should be playing while Aramis is out.
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but Fox could pinch hit..
… which is all Freel seems to be doing at the moment.
That said, I might prefer Lou to give Freel some starts at 3rd to give him a chance to prove himself in a Cub uniform. Fonty sure hasn’t looked comfortable playing there. BUT if Freel’s just gonna be used as a PH, then may as well have Fox doing that job…
by CubFanInCanberra (9387milesfromWrigley) on May 21, 2009 3:20 AM CDT up reply actions
WELL THAT COULD BE THE CASE
And the doghouse is farther away from the dugout…..Something is going on…
I can't imagine that he's there already.
He’s only had one screwup, getting picked off in his first appearance. If Lou didn’t like him for some reason and wasn’t going to play him, surely he would communicate that to Hendry.
OH CRAP. We lost a game. Whatever...
I’m done being too concerned about it anymore. Go Cubs.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 20, 2009 11:00 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
No way does Hendry admit he was wrong and get DeRo back.
But, if he does make any trades at all, Aaron f*cking Miles better be the 1st guy that is shown the door. Trade those 3 pitchers they gave us plus Miles for DeRo.
ps. Milton Bradley sucks
"He can't hit, he can't field, he can't run—all he can do is beat you."
Staying on the topic of DeRosa
MLB Trade Rumors is reporting that the Indians are fielding offers for De-Ro.
According to SI’s Jon Heyman, the Indians are now fielding offers for infielder Mark DeRosa. DeRosa, 34, is hitting .242/.312/.412 on the season in 170 plate appearances as the Tribe’s third baseman. He has about $4.15MM left on his contract.
Heyman says the Indians “are looking mainly for pitchers who can help them now.” Heyman believes DeRosa is below Nick Johnson, Aubrey Huff, and Russell Branyan on the Mets’ wish list. What other teams would make sense – the Braves, Cubs, Brewers, or Cardinals perhaps? You can discuss it in the comments here, and also head over to our Facebook fan page and jump into that discussion.
They want pitchers who can help them now? Kind of ironic that they traded pitching to get DeRosa in the first place.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Send Guzman, Wells and Cotts.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 20, 2009 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions
whoops...Guzman OR Wells
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 20, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions
More likely than what I posted below
But that seems like a lot to give up
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions
Wells and Marshall can't both be in the rotation...
Marshall is at least a known quantity. If we’re so damn sure DeRosa is the key to our success, it’s not a lot to give up. But I don’t think DeRosa is the difference maker anyway.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 20, 2009 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't think he's the difference maker either...
Other than Soriano, Kosuke and Theriot, no one is hitting consistently.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
Agreed on your rotation comment and the difference maker comment
I still think Marshall’s heading to the ’pen and Cotts is heading out the door, though.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions
I think we're gonna need Wells.
Especially by the looks of our pen. Yuck.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
I think Hendry will do something sooner rather than later about the bullpen if it continues to under perform.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 20, 2009 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Pitchers who can help them now . . .
Aren’t pitchers that they traded. Maybe offer them Hart, Cotts and J. Fox, then. Although I woudn’t make that trade if I were the Indians . . . .
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions
They dealt us Jeff Stevens, Chris Archer and John Gaub.
Stevens is pitching pretty well in AAA with a 2.04 ERA. He’s walking too many though.
And, Gaub is looking sharp in AA. Either of those guys could possibly help a team with the worst record in the AL.
And, funny enough: they signed Luis Vizcaino.
BTW: Archer’s got a 1.80 ERA in A ball, with 30 Ks in 25 innings. Very nice.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
It depends what their goal is
To somehow claw back into it? To contend in 2010? Or to build long-term?
Help them now implies 2009, but I’m not sure.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
I just don't understand...we need DeRosa because he's awesome and will help us win...
Cleveland has DeRosa and he hasn’t been awesome or helped them win.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 20, 2009 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Oh, I agree
This isn’t the difference and he’s not coming back
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Apparently people are confused by the number 7 on his uniform.
They think he’s Mickey Mantle.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on May 20, 2009 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Again, it's the sentimentality -- DeRo's attitude plays a part
I was sorry to see him traded; I really was. However, it’s time to move on. If the Cubs could get him cheaply, I’d say great — but I don’t think it’s likely.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Damn DeRomantics.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by daver on May 20, 2009 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's what I like about Mark!
He plays a lot like Mick!
Only bats from one side
But it’s with a real big stick!
Yeaaah!
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Losing Aramis would be nothing to fear
If we had Mark back and playing right here
Hey! Hey! Hey!
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Cubs fans will give Hendry a pass
if he brings back Mark, we won’t kick him in the…
other knee!
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 20, 2009 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Seems to me like
“Pitching that can help us now” is the first opening salvo.
That will get dialed down to “Pitching for the future or bats that can help us now”
And then eventually to… “Dear God, we’re 15 games behind the ROYALS and we’re paying this guy $4.1m. Someone take him!”
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
All I'm saying is... it's quite ironic.
If Stevens or Gaub were still in their system… it’s very likely one, or both of them, would have been called up by now.
Their staff is horrendous. They have the second worst team ERA in baseball… only the Nats are worse.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Isn't the fact that Cleveland is shopping DeRo kind of proof that it wasn't a good deal for them?
Even though the masses in Wrigleyville are pining for DeRo it would appear that Shapiro got the short end of the stick in this deal.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on May 20, 2009 10:54 PM CDT up reply actions
In regards to MLB.tv
I have a subscription to this and do travel 100%. There are a lot of times where I am in cities that have WGN available but the hotel won’t offer it. I go to the laptop only to find out the game is balcked out in my area. The only way for me to watch all the games i want to is to go to a place that has EI. While this is very fun, it also becomes a pain. As Al has mentioned, If I am willing to pay for a game, why can’t i just be able to watch it. Very frustrating. The other option is to quit traveling and I would be ok with that too! Go Cubs
when asked about his performance against the Reds - Lieber said the following
"Well obviously I made some bad pitches today, left to many over the plate and they got good wood on the ball. The only good thing was that I was able to get back into the clubhouse earlier then I planned so I could eat."
by 1060 W Addison on May 20, 2009 11:31 AM CDT reply actions
Addendum to my trade idea
The only reason to trade anything valuable for DeRosa is if we stick him at 2B and consider the position solved for a couple of years, which is what we should have done anyway.
But Lou fell in love with Little Lord Fontenot.
Fine, Fontenot isn’t horrid at 3B and can play SS and 2B. Let him be the super-utility man and give DeRosa a position once and for all.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
And what happens to Aaron Miles?
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I couldn't possibly care less about the answer to that question
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
But your trade scenario isn't really complete...
…until you answer the question. Do you release him?
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Probably see if you can get anything for him
My guess is he fetches no more than a Single A prospect.
Then release him.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
DeRo is 34 and performing below his career averages why would we want him at 2nd the next couple years?
He was already a below average fielder at 2nd last season and if his plate struggles continue he’s nothing more than the utility player he was before he came to the Cubs.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on May 20, 2009 10:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Send him packin!! He is totally worthless!!
Every Cardinal fan I’ve spoken with shares that same opinion, they couldn’t wait to be rid of him last year!!
"He can't hit, he can't field, he can't run—all he can do is beat you."
Probably not an uncommon sentiment, but easier said than done
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions
So you've been speaking with Cardinals fans, eh?
SEIZE HIM!
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Hard to solve a position for a couple of years with a guy who's 34 years old.
We did the right thing by trading him at the peak of his value. Even if we lost his versatility as a result.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
I'm really not interested in making DeRosa our long-term 2B.
I’m also not ready to write off Fontenot, whose bat has looked cold since he’s started playing 3B. His OPS was up at .800 or so before he moved to 3B. I’d keep playing him and expect the bat to come around when he’s not worried about learning a new position.
Derrek Lee is good.
I'm guessing it has more to do with playing everyday...
and less to do with where he’s playing.
He’s might just better as a platoon player… when his body has more time to recover.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Maybe
But even then, as the LH batter who’d get most of the ABs, we wouldn’t need a hitter as good as DeRosa to platoon with Fontenot.
At this point, I think the likeliest explanation is a combo of Fontenot focused on defense and letting his bat slide, and just being a little off in his timing, such that his LD% is down.
Put him back at 2B for 100 ABs and I think all is right again (if not as spectacular as last season).
Derrek Lee is good.
I'd prefer to see a platoon of Theriot and Fontenot at 2B
But, we need to get a real major league SS first, for that to happen.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
I'm not quite why you'd want to platoon The Riot with anyone
at this point in his career. He’s shown the ability to improve offensively every year.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on May 20, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions
because his arm
doesn’t get any better. Nor does his range.
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 20, 2009 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions
That has nothing to do with his offense.
You’re taliking about his defensive position, I’m talking about the silliness of suggesting platooning The Riot.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on May 20, 2009 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions
you do realize
you can’t platoon players so that one plays offense and one plays defense.
Fact is, Ryan Theriot is a second-baseman playing out of position. If you platooned him at second base, his arm and range wouldn’t be as much of a liability.
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 20, 2009 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Which also means he gets less at bats...
Which I think is what Cows was saying was silly, given that he’s offensive production is up…
by CubsWin!Oregon on May 20, 2009 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Depends on what you're interested in, I guess.
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 20, 2009 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions
That's true.
Cost/benefit analysis and all that.
The thing is though that Theriot has the highest UZR/150 on the Cubs (at over 16.4 if I remember) among players who qualify for the rating, and the 3rd highest on the Cubs among all the players, irrespective of the number of touches.
Unless I’m missing something, that means his defense isn’t that bad.
by CubsWin!Oregon on May 20, 2009 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually...
for fun I looked again. Theriot’s UZR/150 is 16.2. Which gives him the third highest rating in the all of baseball…
by CubsWin!Oregon on May 20, 2009 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions
It's true.
The UZR system, which is somewhat controversial but still pretty highly regarded, smiles upon Ryan Theriot. The one caveat to bear in mind is that, as I understand it, you need at least 1,000 innings of data to get a fairly accurate reading, and Theriot’s 2009 rating of 3.6/16.2 is based on only 310 innings.
However – a big however – is his career UZR/UZR 150 rating of 7.2/4.0 is based on 2452.1 innings of major league play. Thus, he does appear a good shortstop. Not spectacular – but, under this system at least, he is saving runs at that position, not costing them.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
We don't need Mark DeRosa.
What do we need? We need a 3B to play until Aramis gets back. We need a defensive artist backup at SS. We need a platoon partner for Fontenot.
Scales, Freel, and/or Miles should do the latter. DeRosa can’t do the SS part. Yes, he could do the 3B part, but then where do you put him when Aramis gets back?
So, really what we should be looking for is a SS/3B option and we can get one of those cheaper than DeRosa.
Derrek Lee is good.
I agree.
I thought Ryan Freel solved the third base backup problem, but Lou isn’t playing him there.
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Exactly.
What’s the point of Freel if he pinch-hits once a week?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
it's still
a two-for-one deal.
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 20, 2009 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions
True, but if getting rid of a player
who never gets in the game, why not replace him with something Lou would use, or at least something the team needs that Lou never uses, like a reliever.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
You're suggesting going to a 13-man pitching staff?
Lou doesn’t use the 12th guy.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Not what I was thinking, but
If the 25th guy on the roster is so deep on the depth chart to never (almost) get in the game in the NL, does it matter whether that player is a pitcher?
I was more thinking packaging gathright and one of the various relief options for an upgrade.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Someone has to be the offensive equivalent of Neal Cotts, I suppose
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions
If the guys were hitting no one would be talking about DeRo...
Bradley hasn’t been consistent. Soto isn’t last years Soto. Lee hasn’t gotten it going yet. If the bats were more consistent we wouldn’t be having the conversation.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
I'd like to see Scales in the line-up until he cools down...
and move him behind Soto, to help get Soto stareted.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
That's seems to be the exact opposite approach Lou has taken with Aaron Miles.
Play Miles until he succeeds!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 20, 2009 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Yep, Lou must be convinced the Miles is due.
"He can't hit, he can't field, he can't run—all he can do is beat you."
unfortunately, I'm terrified it's a veteran vs. rookie thing
I can’t see any other reason why Miles is getting the bulk of the playing time, even when Scales is outproducing him by quite a lot
by WanderingWanderer on May 20, 2009 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Which is all the more ironic
since DeRosa’s not hitting either. It’s early in the season and slumps are magnified in the stat-lines.
Derrek Lee is good.
I would have loved to had Omar Vizquel on our team for the last 3 years.
But, we were never interested.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
With all of this talk about DeRosa...
I think it’s worth pointing out that Hendry finally sold high on someone.
and didn't much in return.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 20, 2009 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions
not if we're actually taking a win now mentality
supposedly this team is built to win this year. So we trade a decent offensive player for someone who may or may not help us at some distant point in the future
by WanderingWanderer on May 20, 2009 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions
In your opinion?
Okay, that’s nice. But he got market value for DeRosa. Your perceived value doesn’t mean anything. DeRosa’s actual value, obviously, is what the Cubs received in return.
I guess that goes two ways.
Hendry sold high, but received a few pieces. One of which may pan out down the road. None of which helped the team in the near future.
If what he got was market value, was it worth selling high? I’m not so sure.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Just what kind of value do you think the market puts on
a second baseman in his mid-30’s?
This is the 2009 market, not the market of the past. Veteran (aging) players have declined in value while young players have increased in value.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on May 20, 2009 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions
At the same time...
… DeRosa’s versatility and (relatively) inexpensive contract made him attractive trade bait.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Okay, so I'm confused
did Hendry sell high? Or did he get Market value, which in today’s market is actually low. And if market value was low, why sell at all?
by WanderingWanderer on May 20, 2009 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions
to free up space
for Bradley?
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 20, 2009 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Didn't Hendry
already have plans to add a $10mil Rf going into the offseason. I don’t think he went into last offseason planning to get rid of DeRo. Correct me if I’m wrong but the move to dump DeRo was to free up salary for the player who shall not be named.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
I don't know.
Honestly, I don’t.
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 20, 2009 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Market value if one of these guys actually make it in the majors
otherwise it was a complete salary dump.
"He can't hit, he can't field, he can't run—all he can do is beat you."
disagree entirely
if the cubs thought, f’r’instance
that there was a 40% chance on each of them making the big show
and a 10% chance that one of them would be a solid contributor down the line,
that’s not a salary dump.
while i pulled the numbers out of my behind, that’s the reality. ‘get some players that may reasonably be of legit value sometime’ isn’t a ‘salary dump’. a salary dump is like the nba trades where you send a guy and a first round pick for a second round pick.
Ok, it wasn't a pure salary dump but the guys he got weren't even big time prospects
or major league ready. No Jon Garland’s coming our way in that trade. Hendry got fleeced.
"He can't hit, he can't field, he can't run—all he can do is beat you."
What a shame.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 20, 2009 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions
oh, dear...
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 20, 2009 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Nope, nothin'.
I can check that fetish off my list of prospects.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Hey, I'm just trying to be thorough.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Gotta try
everything once, at least that’s what my mom used to tell me. But then I think she was talking about vegetables.
"Respect" ~ Ryne Sandberg
that's a different
fetish.
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 20, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions
What about fruit?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 20, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
This one's out of the running, too.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
clearly a work of art.
"I'm not much of a chemistry guy, you know. Chemistry to me is a pinch-hit double with the bases loaded"--Jim Frey, Chicago Tribune, 1985.
more of a religion.
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 20, 2009 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions
That looks like
that rare fruit known as the Cantabanana. I hear they are tasty.
"Respect" ~ Ryne Sandberg
what? So any trade we make is exactly the market value for those players?
your argument makes no sense.
by WanderingWanderer on May 20, 2009 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions
It makes complete sense. Think about it.
We fans speculate about perceived value all the time. But the only way we know what a player’s ACTUAL value is, is by looking at who he netted in return.
SWL
no SD trip for me – i have to work this weekend.
i see that the august trip to SD is an all-week trip @ SD Mon-Wed and @ LA Thurs-Sun. i will try to work in our LA office that week and catch a few of those games
the pink hat guy is my father
too bad...I'll be at the game on Sunday. Look for the dork in the BCB shirt behind the plate.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 20, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Let's hope you go 2 for 2 for getting on TV.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
I think
you’re going to have to be more specific.
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 20, 2009 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions
PLEASE don't tell me
you’re going to be talking on your cell phone and wave at the camera!
Those people are truly the biggest morons! They pay an obscene amount of money to look like an idiot on TV.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on May 20, 2009 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Milton Mask?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 20, 2009 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions
You could always
wear a pink hat so that we can easily identify you and feel like we are watching a game played at Wrigley at the same time.
"Respect" ~ Ryne Sandberg
DeRosa
Mark DeRosa was traded because the Cubs “couldn’t afford him”… not because they got a great deal in return for him or because he wasn’t productive and valuable to the team. So how do they re-acquire DeRosa without using up most of the money this “cash-strapped” franchise has in reserve to fix the bullpen? The bullpen in its current state will cost this team many more games than not having a utility player/stop-gap thirdbaseman. I’m not interested in the Cubs re-acquiring Mark DeRosa unless the Indians pay most of his salary and give up one of their bullpen arms. The Brewers can have him… they have better and cheaper options than Mark DeRosa too.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
I said this last night in the game thread...
I’m saying it again. Do not be surprised if DeRo is back in Cubbie blue by mid season, if not sooner.
I'm a truth teller, I'm a risk taker, I'm like Johnny Cash - I walk the line...
And I'm saying right now
it won’t happen.
by WanderingWanderer on May 20, 2009 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions
You are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine...
I'm a truth teller, I'm a risk taker, I'm like Johnny Cash - I walk the line...
by Jimmyeatworld on May 20, 2009 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Twittermeyer reports
Carpenter has been reactivated. Ankiel still on the DL.
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
Lineups
Cubs
Sori
Riot
Dome
Lee
Bradley
Font (3b)
Soto
Scales (2b)
Demp.
Cards:
Schumaker
Rasmus
Pujols
Molina
Duncan
Stavinoha
Thurston
Carpenter (pitcher)
Ryan
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
BOBBY SCALES
THERE IS A GOD
AND S/HE’S A CUBS FAN
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money."
--Ernie Banks
scales, yea!!!!!
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
That's a fine looking lineup if you ask me...
And then when ARam gets back….suuuwweeeeettt…
by CubsWin!Oregon on May 20, 2009 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions
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