Michael Wuertz - The one that got away
by Luis on May 20, 2009 6:51 AM CDT
Email
PrintKerry Wood - Not doing well
Felix Pie - Not doing well
Mark DeRosa - Not doing well
Michael Wuertz - Lights out
The indians made a bad decision with Wood because he had a limited track record as a closer, is injury prone and even last year wasn't lights out. For similar kind of money they could have gotten Francisco Rodriguez, a guy that has done it for his entire career, and done it better.
Felix Pie is still the same and even Baltimore is limiting his at-bats.
Mark DeRosa has 87 or so OPS+ so far. I think the arms we got back could be valuable and they are doing very good in the minors so far. The problem, I believe, was not trading DeRosa, but rather signing Aaron Miles, and to a ridiculous deal on top of that. I firmly believe Neifi was a more valuable baseball player.
Michael Wuertz? Never understood why they traded him. The guy had been a consistent and good reliever for some years and they basically gave him away for a Tyler Colvin type and an Aaron Miles type. Why?? Wuertz, at career norms, is far more valuable than that, especially making 1 million.
It was strange that they traded Wuertz, but even more troubling for whom they traded him for.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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We're mourning Michael Freaking Wuertz now???
If we are moaning about Michael Wuertz, then this team is doomed. Time to convert the blog to a Bears mini-camp chronicle.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I agree, I am tired of the woulda coulda shoulda regarding Wuertz.
He stunk it up most of the time with the Cubs, and I know I wanted to see him go. The problem is that we should have gained someone better. But Wuertz can stay gone as far as I am concerned.
by adam316 on May 20, 2009 8:08 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Uh-Huh
101
116
174
134
123
Those are Wuertz ERA+ in the 5 seasons he was a Cub. If that is “stunking it up most of the time” I beat you can come up with a lot of other Cubs relievers who have put numbers like that in consecutive seasons. And yeah, he also made no money in those 5 years.
by Luis on May 20, 2009 8:17 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Luis, you're not going to win this argument with facts.
There are people here who are convinced Wuertz stunk because the never-wrong Lou Piniella went on a campaign against Wuertz. Many Cub fans will much sooner believe Lou than the facts.
My one quibble with your fanpost is the title. Wuertz isn’t “the one who got away,” he’s just one more we devalued and pushed away for no other reason than that Lou didn’t like him. It’s Scott Eyre redux.
Derrek Lee is good.
by DGU on May 20, 2009 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
+1
Agreed on all accounts…‘the one that got away’ would be someone like Maddux who was willing to stay and the team say c-ya. Weurtz was pushed away so there is no chance for us to say “What if we did more?”
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on May 20, 2009 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions
Crikey
Scott Eyre started 2008 with a bum arm and was carefully and slowly brought back into action. Eyre is a high mileage relief pitcher who is either decent or very bad. I invite you to take a look at his 2009 performance to date.
But hey, some of you know pitching talent better than Lou Piniella. According to youl Sweet Lou is the guy who “over-used” Carlos Marmol when he should have knowlingly sacrificed winning regular season games because it was already predestined the Cubs were going to make the playoffs. Anybody outside of Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles will recall vividly the erractic pull-your-hair out existence of Michael Wuertz in a Cub uniform. He severely tested the patience of both Dusty and Lou, and is mercifully GONE.
Not that I completely agree here
But I do like the point:
According to youl Sweet Lou is the guy who "over-used" Carlos Marmol when he should have knowlingly sacrificed winning regular season games because it was already predestined the Cubs were going to make the playoffs.
I’ve heard others make this argument before, and Blou is right in calling it out for being ridiculous. I don’t share the same level of negative sentiment for Wuertz, but I also wouldn’t tout him as “The one that got away” — just seems like over shooting it a bit…A BIT.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
Cub fans have a unique paranoia
if a 7.5 game lead doesn’t allow for the 1-2 game margin of using Marmol a little less and anyone else a little more.
As for Wuertz, I remember him well. I remember that he has pitched well under every manager he’s played for except one. I remember that in 2008, he pitched inconsistently for a clear and specific reason. Look at his splits. He pitched well, except when he had been given 5 or more days of rest, which happened 7 times and was a disaster every time.
Lou is a good manager overall. He is not a good manager of bullpens.
Derrek Lee is good.
But Lou DID overuse Marmol
He put him in TWICE with leads of five or more runs TO START an inning and NOT because he needed to the work.
He used him day in and day out as a message to the rest of the bullpen that he did not trust them thus getting a two for one deal, screwing up Marmol and letting the rest of the pitchers know he had no faith in them.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on May 20, 2009 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Different perspective
I guess I did not consider the whole – no faith in the rest of the staff – argument. Although it retrospect I remember feeling the most faith in a victory when Marmol came into the game – I probably even felt great relief even when we had a solid lead. I’m not saying that Lou did not overuse Marmol, but rather I do not agree with the sentiment that some games are made to order for a loss – just because of a big lead heading into the post season.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
But it was throughout the season
and the Cubs did not clinch till the last week. I do have a problem with Lou managing every inning of every game as if it was the world series. When you don’t consider that putting in a pinch hitter in a non make or break situation is going to cause to put in a guy who has not played a position since HS, or use your entire bench in nine innings in a tie road game or put in your best reliever with six run lead in the NINTH inning( which he proceeds to BLOW thus destroying both his arm and his confidence) it is just not good managing. I agree that the Cubs should never have been thought of us coasting but alas Lou’s resting of the regulars that last weekend was indicative of that.
Oh for the record on the actual topic of the post. I think Wuertz was good enough to be kept but I can’ get
that worked up over dumping him . I think he is useful back of the pen guy but nothing great.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on May 20, 2009 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions
You want to talk about Eyre ?
You have GOT to be kidding. Yep he stunk at the start of 08 and went promptly to the dog house where he was never seen again meanwhile the equally if not more horrible Bob Howry was used OVER AND OVER. How the F)(*^%% was
Eyre “slowly brought back to action” . NOT BY THE LOU OR THE CUBS but by the PHILLIES who had faith in him and knew that is perfect role was a one or two out guy. His 2009 performance ? He has given up runs in ONE out of 10 appearences. It was a lulu of course but it did not cause Manuel to stick him in a dog house and he has been perfect since then. The idea that you could use Eyre as example of Lou’s knowledge of pitchers is pretty damn funny. Raise your hand gang if you would like a guy who has not given up a run in 9 out of ten games ?
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on May 20, 2009 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah
It’s not the first time this happens, and Eyre is a perfect comparison.
And the thing that troubles me the most is what Hendry got in return. Those two guys, along with the Miles signing, are very hard to swallow. I thought Hendry had learned something in his evaluation of hitting talent, but those moves are typical Hendry of old.
+1
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Well perhaps we should have a "the one we shouldve never signed"
post about Lou…and spare me the “he led us to the playoffs twice” I think the 300M spending spree had a little to do with that as well
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Doesn't Piniella deserve some credit for
Realizing that Barrett, Izturis, Murton, Pie weren’t going to cut it?
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Don't get me wrong, I agree he's not perfect
The truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions
True
But Pie still wasnt given a real shot with the Cubs, whether or not Lou or Hendry or whomever is vindicated, he still wasnt given a full shot with this team.
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Amen brother...Wuertz sucks
Michael Wuertz was wholly unreliable in a Cub uniform. He’d come into a ballgame and walk the first batter he’d face like clockwork. He also was infamous for letting inherited runners score while his ERA went largely unscathed. Wuertz severely tested and used up the patience of Lou Piniella.
So what if he is on a nice streak in the UN-pressure packed situation that Is Oakland. He’ll revert back to use usual form soon enough.
What pen pitcher do we have right now...
that does not walk the first batter they face? Honestly, dont they all? Or do we just see it that way as frustrated fans?
By the way 27 out of 45 appearances last year Wuertz had ZERO walks. Most walks in one appearance, 2 and that only happened 3 times.
This season 19 appearances, 3 walks.
2007 – 73 appearances 48 without walks. 7 with 2 walks and 1 with 3.
So tell me again how he walks the first batter every time?
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
Oh you poor, poor fool
You can’t use facts to go against MDBNIU, he allegedly played college baseball, so he knows everything even if facts prove otherwise. He will not answer you, that is his M.O., make outlandish statement after outlandish statement and then never respond to people who prove him wrong.
"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko
Ironically
while Wuertz DIDN’T walk every first batter he’d face, if he DID that would be… reliable. There’s a reason they call it “like clockwork”.
Wuertz was the kind of guy you’d think was so-so, when he was actually pretty good, because he was just kinda uninspiring. Then you’d look up, and the job would be done, and you’d say “huh, who did that?”
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 20, 2009 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Wuertz was the kind of guy you’d think was so-so, when he was actually pretty good, because he was just kinda uninspiring.
Well said. Perhaps if Wuertz and his stuff had seemed a bit less vanilla, more people on this board would have taken to him.
"If it only ends once, anything that happens before that, is just progress."
It's the first time through the AL...........
…………for Wuertz, so check back on his numbers 60 days from now.
Amazed to see he’s only walked 3 hitters in +20 innings. When he was with the Cubs, he could walk that many guys in one appearance!
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
I don't expect him to mainting those numbers
But I do expect him to replicate his career norms, and Wuertz has been one of the more consistent relievers in the game (discount elite type closers). Hendry created a hole in the bullpen for no reason, and got a laughable return on top of it. I don’t understand why Wuertz is so undervalued by Cubs fans. It’s very very hard to find set up guys who are consistently good and he was exactly that.
The Lou "Dog House"...........
……….is tighter than Alcatraz. Once you are in, it’s nearly impossible to get out.
Plain and simple, that’s the reason Wuertz is gone.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
"Stevie" was yet another victim.
Throw Ronny Cedeno into that prison mix as well.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
You're nuts in your assessment of Wuertz in a Cub uniform
He was the furthest thing from a consistent reliever with the Cubs.
I would still take Kerry Wood...
over Kevin Gregg. Mainly because we gave up a prospect to get Gregg.
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
Good grief
That prospect happens to have a bum arm and has also never pitched above A ball. So lets not get terribly carried away with what was given up to get Gregg.
Jose Ceda was consistently ranked in the top 5 of our system and a B prospect. He had much more upside than a guy with a career FIP of 4 and only had value because he was thrown into a closer’s role (which he obviously shouldn’t be in).
I am like your Dan Aykroyd and biglow would be Jane, the ignorant slut. -Chad
If you take Wood
You don’t get Bradley. Not enough money for both.
No thanks, he got shelled again last night. 4ER in the ninth.
by salparadise23 on May 20, 2009 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions
The Indians...
are 14 and 26 how does a closer get the work needed when a team is struggling to win games? And Gregg has been perfect right?
And how do you draw Bradley to Wood? Did we get Gregg for free? His 4.2 mil is being picked up by the marlins?
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
10/15 scoreless outings so far this season for Woody.
His K:BB and K/9 look good, but he’s giving up a ton of hits. I caught the lowlights of his blown save last night and felt really bad for the guy. He’s adjusting to a new – and, so far, losing – team and not getting many opportunities.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
how much is Wood and how much
is the catcher not calling a good pitch selection? Not saying Wood is 100% innocent, but he doesnt call the pitches
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
He throws the pitches, though
If he doesn’t agree with the call, he’s free to shake off the sign
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions
point taken
It is funny how a good game you hear a catcher getting kudos for calling a good game, and a bad game the pitcher wasnt making the pitches.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I think that's usually the pitcher being deferential
Steve Stone liked to say, “Until I see a column in the boxscore that says, ‘Losing Catcher’, I’m going to decide myself what to throw.” Or something like that.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions
I know exactly what you are saying
same like “you never see a loss hung on the head of the bench coach”
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
WHAT ABOUT RICKY NOLASCO?!
WHY CAN’T WE GET HIM BACK!!
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money."
--Ernie Banks
Wow, that was a pretty bad call on my part, wasn't it?
I thought Nolasco had put it together after last year. He’s been beyond horrible this year. Wonder why?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It certainly wood (ha! get it?) appear that way.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
Eh just think...
about how many people on this board (including you) DIDNT want Zack Grienke when talks of him being traded surfaced last year. Whoops!!!
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
GM Dayton Moore was never going to trade Zach Greinke
Moore is a very smart young GM and has known the talent of Greinke ever since he took that KC job. He wasn’t going to trade him. Rather he invested heavily on getting Greinke to overcome his pscychological hang-ups that were preventing his enormous talent from bursting through.
You call him smart
I call him mediocre.
Who gives up Leo Nunez for Mike Jacobs?
I am like your Dan Aykroyd and biglow would be Jane, the ignorant slut. -Chad
Not this rumor again
He never was on the block.
He had a 13-10 mark in 2008. His ERA was 3.47. His ERA+ was 123. The Royals need pitching. So can we please stop this rumor that he was actively being shopped and somehow the Cubs missed their shot.
Did i say the Cubs were pursuing him?
Nope. Didnt. Read the post before you make assumptions.
With that said i will break down the posts for you, Al was talking about being wrong about Nolasco, and i was simply adding to the convo, that many people were wrong about Grienke. Never did i say that the Cubs were pursuing him, only that if he were to be traded people didnt want him.
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
Wow, I didn't mean to get in a pissing match
My point is that Greinke was never on the block. I apologize if you never said it but he has been frequently mentioned as someone Hendry let get away. His name should be brought up then along with Halladay and Billingsley as pitchers that Hendry let get away.
Not a pissing match...
but you just did it again. You are venting on about something that was not stated.
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
OK
I agree I jumped the gun. You did not mention it.
Others though have frequently mentioned this supposed missed opportunity that Hendry missed. I read your response incorrectly as another one mentioning it.
In your defense . . .
It’s a common fan practice to lament over things that never were a possibility, anyway, and it gets old. That may be why you jumped the gun.
For example:
People whining that the Cubs should have kept Josh Hamilton. (Never an option — he was drafted Rule 5 because of a pre-made agreement with the Reds.)
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah but
Hendry could have said no to the Reds
And drafted him for the Cubs
Fact when a team in your division asks you to draft a player because they want him so badly, it might be wise to take a closer look at said player.
Overall I’m glad Hendry decided to stick with Joque Jones and take the $50,000 or whatever it is he received. Good move.
Greinke may have never been on the block but I’m sure Hendry at least inquired about him. Those rumors were around longer than just last off season.
by BucknerKongCardenal on May 20, 2009 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions
My understanding is that...
…if Hendry had said “no” to the Reds re: Josh Hamilton he would have effectively ruined his reputation as a GM. It would have been a crippling ethical betrayal.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Tonight, throughout Deadwood
heads may be laid to pillow assuaged and reassured, for that purveyor for profit of everything sordid and vicious, Al Swearengen, already beaten to a fare-thee-well earlier in the day by Sheriff Bullock, has returned to the Sheriff the implements and ornaments of his office. Without the tawdry walls of Swearengen’s saloon the Gem, decent citizens may pursue with a new and jaunty freedom all aspects of Christian commerce. In which connection, we particularly recommend—" There you’d throw in the names of a few businesses gave you good-sized adverts, huh?"
A full fair-mindedness requires us also to report that within the Gem, on Deadwood’s main thoroughfare, comely whores, decently priced liquor and the squarest games of chance in the hills remain unabatedly available at all hours, seven days a week."
WOXY.com - The Future of Rock and Roll
If your point here...
…is that this isn’t a topic worth discussing, I disagree.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
I approve of this Deadwood quote.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money."
--Ernie Banks
Didn't Swearengen
play for the Spiders?
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 20, 2009 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions
I think it's still a little early...
…to say precisely which player jettisoned during the, shall we say, interesting ‘08-’09 off-season is “the one who got away.” But Michael Wuertz does appear to be leading the pack.
Michael struggled mightily last season – so much so that he agreed to a demotion to Triple A. That said, I’d agree that he was a pretty underrated reliever in other years. Check out his Fangraphs page. His K/9 and K:BB in 2005, 2006 and 2007 were all excellent. Also look at his LOB% in ’06 (84.4%!) and ’07. IIRC, in 2007, he came in second to Carlos Marmol in the National League in stranding runners.
Time will tell whether Wuertz can keep this up. Let me put it this way: I wouldn’t have been unhappy if the Cubs had held on to him. But Hendry seemed to think he’d gone as far as he could with the Cubs organization. Maybe he’ll thrive in the more low-key AL West atmosphere.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
...b-but b-but but...
According to BLou:
“Michael Wuertz was wholly unreliable in a Cub uniform. He’d come into a ballgame and walk the first batter he’d face like clockwork. He also was infamous for letting inherited runners score while his ERA went largely unscathed.”
and
“Anybody outside of Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles will recall vividly the erractic pull-your-hair out existence of Michael Wuertz in a Cub uniform. "
Who should I believe? Can you check those stats again daver? They must be wrong. BLou remembers a much lower LOB%, and he is surely credible because of his excellent vision!
by Jerry Mumphrey on May 20, 2009 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
I think his emotions are getting the better of him on this one.
Admittedly, Wuertz did look pretty God-awful last season. But his overall body of work takes a lot of the surprise out of how well he’s doing so far this season.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Wuertz
Wuertz numbers as a Cub look decent, and he was ok up until 2008. Last year he was relegated to the 2nd tier of the bullpen for a reason, he just wasn’t getting guys out.
I’m happy he has put together almost 2 good months, but no I wouldn’t want the 2008 Wuertz back.
This is hindsight affected, yes, but imagine an off-season
where we had traded Jose Ceda for Maicer Izturis, kept Wuertz, and avoided Gregg and Miles. We’d have a switch-hitting middle IF who can play 3B-SS-2B with above average defense and pinch-run with effectiveness, at the savings of 4 M or so from the Miles-Gregg combo.
The only thing Gregg has on Wuertz is a few saves on his bubble-gum card and an extra consonant at the end of his name.
Derrek Lee is good.
by DGU on May 20, 2009 10:06 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Can you explain to me your fascination with prying away Maicer Izturis from the Angels?!?
I can’t believe Piniella and Hendry are actually being ripped by some for getting rid of Wuertz. Sorry, but I remember a VERY different Wuertz than you do. And isn’t it funny how the ridiculously overhyped Jose Ceda who has never pitched above A-ball has come up with a bum arm. Or how Kerry Wood isn’t pitching anything like a $20 million investment that Cleveland made in him. Seems to me Hendry made a nice deal for Kevin Gregg. And was right in taking a pass on Wood at his asking price. Getting rid of Wuertz was about as dramatic a move as accidentally leaving Kevin Hart at the airport.
A couple things
1) I never believed in Ceda, but his value was higher than Kevin Gregg, a player who wasn’t as good as Brandon Lyon, who was available as a free agent on a one-year deal without the cost of a top prospect. I’m glad Jim traded Ceda; I just wish he had trade him for something better.
2) The Wuertz trade wasn’t a big deal in itself; it’s the fact that Wuertz and Gregg are roughly clones of each other.
3) I like the idea of getting Maicer Izturis, because he fits a lot of needs on this club and he should be available given the Angels extra middle IF stock.
Derrek Lee is good.
Since when did Wuertz become closer material?!?
Or even 8th inning setup material?!?! Sorry, but I won’t be fooled by his 7 week start in Oakland. I remember all too vividly his years as a Cub. Kevin Gregg is a proven late inning commodity. You won’t find a single baseball executive on this planet who would take Wuertz over Gregg.
Hahaha
What about the Marlins? If Gregg was so good why did they trade him for a guy:
“That prospect happens to have a bum arm and has also never pitched above A ball. So lets not get terribly carried away with what was given up to get Gregg.”
So………explain that.
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
as per above
you’re using LOGIC against Blue Mike…. oh the futility.
Two words...Salary dump
That and Gregg is a free agent after 2009. In case you haven’t been paying attention the Marlins continue to have severe allergic reaction to paying anybody much beyond the minimum. Gregg was making $4 million plus in 2009, hence too expensive for their tastes. And they were going to lose him when he bolted via free agency.
I think the point DGU was making
is that at this point in their careers, Wuertz and Gregg have very similar stuff. Just because Gregg has spent his recent history being asked to close games, doesn’t mean it’s a role he’s suited for. I do agree that Gregg obviously HAD quite a bit more value than Wuertz, but if their respective paths stay somewhere close to their present output, that may very well change.
"If it only ends once, anything that happens before that, is just progress."
completely different paths
Gregg has been good enough to be named the closer for two different teams, not something one can say about Wuertz.
by lookingdeadred on May 21, 2009 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions
Totally agree...almost
Weurtz and Gregg are very similar pitchers. They are both 2-pitch pitchers who excel at hiding the ball in the delivery giving them deceptive velocity. But the similarity goes even further than you state, in that they are tied in the category of end-of-name consonants.
by Jerry Mumphrey on May 20, 2009 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions
They're tied in end-of-name consonants (EONCs)?
Isn’t Wuertz up by one?
rtz = 3 EONCs
gg = 2 EONCs
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
This:
They are both 2-pitch pitchers who excel at hiding the ball in the delivery giving them deceptive velocity.
Only Wuertz doesn’t have a knee that tells Lou Piniella what to do.
"If it only ends once, anything that happens before that, is just progress."
Please
CFonsistent and good are not two words that come to mind when you look back at Wuertz’s Cub career. If he had been both he would still be a Cub.
by lookingdeadred on May 20, 2009 10:29 AM CDT reply actions
Oh stop.
He is a good for a middle reliever. View it in perspective. When a middle reliever shows that he is consistent and good all the time he enters another role and pay-grade. I challenge you to find a “consistent and good” pitcher languishing in middle relief for the bulk of his career.
by Jerry Mumphrey on May 20, 2009 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions
right on that -
which is why neal cotts has replaced michael wuertz as my favorite cub this year – somebody has to root for the middling middle relievers!! But how about George Frazier as consistent and good middler for the bulk of his career?
by doofus cubs guy on May 20, 2009 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions
Frazier was a set-up man
i.e. the best or 2nd best arm in the pen. Those guys are worth ~$5 mil per year. Middle relief is the 5 guys there to get you to the 8th.
by Jerry Mumphrey on May 20, 2009 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions
sequentially.
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on May 20, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Down goes Frazier! Down goes Frazier!
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 20, 2009 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions
If you want to discuss ones that "got away"...
…wouldn’t Omar Infante come in handy right now? The Cubs acquired and then traded him away during the same off-season so he’s overlooked in these hindsight discussions because he never actually played a game for them.
But he would have been better than Cedeno last year and I think he’d be a lot more useful than Miles is right now, as Infante could be the righty half of the 2B platoon as well as filling in at short and third. At the time, the logic for trading him was that the Cubs viewed the less-expensive Cedeno as a comparable player. That was wrong, Cedeno’s gone, and the Cubs don’t have anybody on their bench that can play a credible shortstop.
PECOTA projects Infante to hit .275/.308/.432 this season (I prefer that to putting much stock in his hot start) which is mediocre on face but is perfectly acceptable for a utility player that can play credible defense at second, third, and short. With the news that Cleveland is shopping DeRosa, lots of Cub fans will be pining for his return. As valuable as DeRosa was in ‘07 and ’08, I’d like to see the Cubs go after a player that can actually play shortstop if only to spare us from ever again having to watch Miles “play” that position. I haven’t considered what the Cubs’ options might be (Ben Zobrist immediately springs to mind but he’s probably not available) but I’d think Infante would have to be somewhere near the top of the list of desirable “super utility” types. Is anybody out there willing to say that Infante wouldn’t be more valuable to the club than Jose Ascanio is?
"I'd rather play baseball than eat." - Andy Pafko
by LaddieRenfroe on May 20, 2009 1:09 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
Rec'd
And the irony is that we had to include Infante to get rid of another reliever Lou couldn’t stand to have on his club, Will Ohman, a reliever who went on to have a very good year once he got away from Lou.
Above, BLou complains about people getting into a fit about Michael Wuertz – the point isn’t Wuertz, it’s the pattern of dumping players who could be useful and then complaining about a thin bullpen – every year!
Derrek Lee is good.
+1
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I get it
You are like the apparent majority of female posters on this board who insist that Lou Piniella is a dull-witted bloated bum. You don’t like him, period. You don’t have to apologize for this. You’re smarter than one of the best and most respected managers in the game of baseball.
Back to this, huh?
You know a criticism has hit home, when you pull out the old “You just don’t like him and think you know more than him and his 172 years of experience.”
Don’t know why I’m bothering, but check up a few posts where I defended him… or don’t.
Derrek Lee is good.
OH-MAN!!
If nothing else, it sure is a bummer to lose the great nicknames for our middle-meltdown men:
Howry Cow
Oh-Man
Worst
Maybe Lou was actually on to something…
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on May 20, 2009 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe Lou wasn't a big fan of Ohman's...
But Ohman lost the respect from Hendry when he threw the Training staff under the bus. That’s why he was gone.
Yeah, that's a good point.
I’ve heard good things about Infante since he went to the Braves.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Yabbut...
PECOTA projects Miles to hit more than Infante this season (look it up). We just hate watching him play right now because of his weak bat and the recent emergence of one Bobby Scales.
All true, but Infante would have eliminated the
need to sign Miles, acquire Freel, and currently discuss DeRosa. Perhaps Gathright could have been included in a swap for middle relief or something. Perhaps not.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Omar Infante was less than Ronny Cedeno while in Detroit
So lets not have all this weeping and gnashing of teeth for not hanging onto Infante. Would I like to have him over Aaron Miles? Yes. But lets get a dose of reality interjected into all of this.
Plus, Wil Ohlman in a Cub uniform was perpetually injured and then, when healthy, awful. I’ve learned a long time ago that left-handed relief pitchers lead a nomadic and very up and down existence in the the majors. One year they are lights out, the next year they play for three different ballclubs in the span of a season because they utterly suck. Scott Eyre, Alan Embree, Ron Mahay (was with the Cubs for a tad), Will Ohlman, Joe Beimel, Damoso Marte, etc….
Juan Cruz
If we’re going to play the “shoulda game”….I wish we had signed Juan Cruz (for a decent contract) to help out the bullpen.
by Ghost of Fred Merkle on May 20, 2009 3:42 PM CDT reply actions
Yeah, Cruz would look nice out in the Cubs pen, setting up saves for Marmol
That was long ago that we let him go. Wuertz sucked last year and was nothing but a middle inning reliever who gets shelled whenever his slider isn’t right. He’s been good so far in Oakland with no pressure and new surroundings, but he’s nothing special.
"He can't hit, he can't field, he can't run—all he can do is beat you."
My problem with Wuertz...
… is that he walked too many guys in crucial situations, gave up too many hard hit balls, and couldn’t consistently throw his slider for strikes.
All this kvetching is making the assumption that Wuertz is doing the exact same things he did as a Cub, which is unlikely. It is more likely that the A’s staff, with a fresh set of eyes, made some changes to Wuertz’s routine, workouts, technique, etc. that has resulted in his improvement. Suffice to say, there is no guarantee that if he had stayed in Chicago he would be doing as well as he is in the East Bay.
So wish him well, but get over it. He’s gone.
Ladies and gentlemen! It's 1985 all over again, but this time the offense goes to hell!
Wuertz
I’m not one to pat myself on the back but when Wuertz was traded I posted here that Billy Beane was going to turn Wuertz into a late inning reliever and trade him at the deadline for something substantially better than Richie Robnett and Justin Sellers. He is on his way to doing just that.
Wuertz should be in the Cubs bullpen pitching where Neal Cotts is. Wuertz has good career numbers against lefties and overall is a solid bullpen arm. Cub fans love to remember the occasional Wuertz implosion but not the many games when Wuertz had his great slider going. Yes, Wuertz had his bad appearances just like most other relievers. He’s not the guy I’d bring in to shut down close games but he certainly has always had the potential to do just that.
...and while we're at it why don't we put a candle in the window for Sergio Mitre
Good grief. For crying out loud some of you paint this picture of Michael Wuertz actually being consistently good in a Cub uniform. And make it sound like we left the second coming of Bruce Sutter slip through our hands.
You know they can't prove whose vomit it was...they don't have the facilities at Scotland Yard...you can't really dust for vomit.
nice way to go to the extreme
No one is painting him as the second coming Bruce Sutter, but he is a good relief pitcher. I pointed out in the exact post that you’re responding to that he wasn’t always consistent. Do you actually read? Maybe you could back up your assertions about Wuertz with a little bit of statistical detail.
The worst part of not having Wuertz
Is that now we can’t package him with Vizcaino and trade him for DeRosa.
by BucknerKongCardenal on May 20, 2009 9:25 PM CDT reply actions
We don't have Vizcaino anymore either.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
I never understood why we let him go...
Not to mention the ERA numbers I saw mentioned above, but in ‘07 he was second in the league for number of inherited runners allowed to score. He was second to none other that CARLOS MARMOL. Im not suprised he’s lights out right now. Apparently the Cubs thought they could get better than him this offseason with Gregg and Patton.
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying" - Michael Jordan, the one and only...
Aardsma
Another pitcher that would look pretty nice in Cub Blue right now. He looks like he has finally grown into that arm.
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