Why I'm not that worried about the offense
Let's take a step back and look at a few things that have been happening to our underperforming batters (Lee, Soto, Bradley, Fontenot). For those who don't know, here's a brief intro to the stats quoted below. BABIP is Batting Average on Balls In Play). In general it averages out around .300, though batters with a higher line drive percentage (LD%) tend to have higher BABIPs. IFFB% is the percentage of all fly balls hit by the player that are caught by infielders (basically, popups).
| Player | BABIP (09) | BABIP (Career) | LD% (09) | LD% (Career) | IFFB% (09) | IFFB% (Career) |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Lee | .280 | .325 | 12% | 21.3% | 17.6% | 7.6% |
| Bradley | .200 | .322 | 13.2% | 21.0% | 26.1% | 11.6% |
| Soto | .266 | .333 | 19.8% | 20.4% | 15.6% | 7.6% |
| Fontenot | .222 | .317 | 13.5% | 20% | 7.7% | 5.1% |
What does this table tell us? These batters have been exceptionally unlucky, especially Bradley. All four of these players are underperforming their projections, but there's simply no way that all four of them are this bad. Derrek Lee has in fact been heating up lately (.353/.405/.559 in the past 14 days), but these guys' overall numbers are so weighted down by their poor start magnifies any at-bat in which they fail to get a hit.
BABIPs this low are just unsustainable by hitters as good as this. Even Aaron Miles has a career BABIP of .312.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
5 recs |
76 comments
Comments
Do you think such bad luck ...
… can occur over the course of an entire season?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on May 25, 2009 3:54 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
If it can...
.. the Cubs would be the team it would happen to…
But I really agree with the underlying message of this post, which I assume (correct me if I’m wrong, Berselius) is that we’ve already got the players we need to succeed (or certainly most of them — the injury to Aramis obviously makes things more difficult).
I mean how many guys on this team couldn’t be playing a LOT better than they are right now? Outside the starting rotation, not many.
I’m sure many will say I’m an idiot (or at least think it), but I’m STILL thinking that this turns around if we just get a few lucky breaks going our way.
We just need something to break us out of this funk… to snap us out of this whirling vortex of suckitude that’s pulling us down…
by CubFanInCanberra (9387milesfromWrigley) on May 25, 2009 4:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It could, but it's just incredibly unlikely.
Only 6 regulars (i.e, players with at least 400 PAs) posted a BABIP below .250 last season, which points to most of these numers going up.
The key behind BABIP is that once you exclude the three true outcomes (HR, Walks, Ks), the pitcher has very littleto no control over where a ball goes once it is batted. It has very little correlation to year to year and can essentially be treated as a random variable with mean .300
Some people have 3 layers, like pie. Blog Blog Blog
by berselius on May 25, 2009 7:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So what you're saying is...
… that things could turn around, given the talent that exists, overnight.
You do need a bit of luck to win. Bad luck — as you point out here — can cause you to lose. Let’s hope you are correct.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on May 25, 2009 7:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it did
it would be unlucky. In short, there is no reason to expect bad luck to continue.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on May 27, 2009 11:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can tell that you're not a Cubs fan..
.. didn’t you know that God hates us? ;)
by CubFanInCanberra (9387milesfromWrigley) on May 28, 2009 8:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am worried about the offense...
Throughout the history of the game, there have been great teams fall apart. Teams that were even better than what the Cubs should be…
We are lucky that we are only 4 or so games out of it. We can still turn this around, but we need to start ASAP.
by TheHawkRules on May 25, 2009 6:01 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Question
Because of lack of time, I haven’t been able to watch a lot of games lately. (Did catch last night) Anyway, I am wondering if Fonzie is slumping, or if the pitchers are for the most part staying away from him? (or both?)It seems like he is the only dangerous hitter in the line-up right now… but, I am wondering were he has been during this slump. One of his team carrying hot streaks would be appreciated. But, if he had one… I would think Lou and Jim would postpone doing anything to help the team.
by TheHawkRules on May 25, 2009 6:05 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
He's in one of his patented "bad slumps"....
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on May 25, 2009 8:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wishful thinking and pixie dust won't fix this offense
Lee is a shadow of his former self, Soto is either a former juicer or a one-year wonder, Fontenot is a role player being asked to play everyday, Theriot is an over-achiever, Soriano is a streaky hack who helps greatly and hurts greatly.
The ONLY name that there is reason to hope on is Milton Bradley right now. Kosuke is doing about as much as can be expected from him.
Awww, come on guys, it's so simple maybe you need a refresher course. It's all ball bearings ...
by BLou on May 25, 2009 8:15 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I feel compelled
to go on record by saying you sound ridiculous when you assert your opinion as blanket fact.
And to suggest Soto a juicer is cheap and low.
"This is an environment of welcoming, and you should just get the hell outta here." --Michael Scott
by Reddevil on May 25, 2009 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pixie dust won't help?
Gee, there goes my FanPost idea: “Is It Time For Some Pixie Dust?”
But seriously, I don’t think anyone’s suggesting anything more magical than allowing for the possibility, or in fact the probability, that a statistical average based on a full season of performance will have points both above and below that average, and that we may be witnessing the mysterious collective low points on those statistical lines. Just because it can’t be easily explained doesn’t preclude it from being true.
While Lee is unlikely to become better with age, it’s too early to say that he is just a shadow of his former self, and flat out accusing Soto of using PEDs is just rhetorical bomb-throwing.
"I'll never forget how I felt last October." ~Kosuke Fukudome
by Goodie1969 on May 25, 2009 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, your comment is phrased in a very-Zambrano-like manner, but there is a kernel of truth here.
Soriano IS an up and down inconsistent swinger (you know which kind)
We may find out Theriot HAS been over-performing, give him another year os so…
Fontenot, at least at this point, prob. WOULD benefit from being a guy coming off the bench for another year or two
And Soto-well, you’re way off there, sorry-it’s called the WBC, he was too young to screw with the Spring routine, not to mention he’s a catcher and has a lot of other responsibilities….he’ll be fine after the All-Star break, and maybe, hopefully sooner.
by Realist Larry on May 28, 2009 1:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Couldn't this also be a sign that they just are not hitting a lot of line drives?
It’s not bad luck when you pop out or fly out time and time again.
"Chicago Cubs fans are ninety percent scar-tissue." -George F. Will
by In Piniella We Trustiella on May 25, 2009 8:28 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Unlucky, or just not hitting line drives?
A low BABIP can be due to either bad luck or making poor contact. You need to take BABIP into account alongside the line drive percentage and probably other factors. That’ll give you a better idea of what’s going on.
On consistent theme I see along with the low BABIP is that each of these guys are well below their career norms in terms of line drive percentage. The question is whether or not the low line drive percentage is evidence of bad luck or something else.
If everything else was in line with career norms and the BABIP was low, we could pretty safely conclude that the struggles are due to bad luck. But right now, the high popup rate and the low line drive rate brings the luck factor into question. These guys have simply not been squaring the ball up very well so far this year (though Lee has turned it up this month). It could be luck, but the stats don’t answer that for sure.
by SouthernCub on May 25, 2009 8:49 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
SouthernCub is exactly right.
Because line drives are the least likely occurrence from a non-bunted batted ball, you have to wait longer in the season to get a good read on the LD%.
Derrek Lee is good.
by DGU on May 25, 2009 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but even then their BABIP is lower than their expected BABIP based on their LD%
Even if these number were their true talent LD%s (which I sincerely doubt given how they are so far below their career norms), Fontenot and Bradley’s BABIP should be in the .250 range.
Still though, those LD% and IFFB% are so far off their career norms that you cannot expect them to be sustainable.
Some people have 3 layers, like pie. Blog Blog Blog
by berselius on May 25, 2009 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Forgot to mention Soto and Lee there
Soto’s expected BABIP is .318 and Lee’s is .240, so only Lee is overperforming this. Still though, the real story is just how much all of these guys are underperforming their career LD%
Some people have 3 layers, like pie. Blog Blog Blog
by berselius on May 25, 2009 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is your last sentence...
you don’t know that those percentages aren’t sustainable. There could be something underlying the low line drive percentages (and high popup percentages).
As I said, it could just be bad luck. But we don’t know that for sure.
by SouthernCub on May 25, 2009 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not bad luck
It just doesn’t likely represent the hitters true ability.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on May 27, 2009 11:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on May 27, 2009 11:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have to regress batted ball factors also
It’s likely that this seasons LD rate doesn’t give a good estimate of Fontenot’s (or whoever’s) true ability. A good projection regresses those batted ball rates to career averages and league average.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on May 27, 2009 11:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Cubs are going to hit.
I was just as mad as anyone, but i calmly looked at the team and saw players that have hit before.
by lexmarklover on May 25, 2009 10:54 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
This is basically what I've been saying
and for that, I get tarred and feathered.
Thanks for putting some heft to the argument.
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 25, 2009 12:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No, you're being "tarred and feathered" for calling people idiots...
and for not being willing to even discuss ideas for improving the team.
If all you said was “I think Soto, Lee, Fontenot, and Bradley have been unlucky,” you probably wouldn’t have gotten the grief you’ve gotten.
But misrepresenting people’s stances whenever they disagree with you and insulting people is a good way to encourage people to attack you.
by SouthernCub on May 25, 2009 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As Frank Zappa once said so eloquently,
“You are what you is.”
I didn’t fire the first shot, but it’s often the guy who retaliates who gets the grief, particularly from know-it-alls like yourself. C’est la vie.
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 25, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd argue you have fired the first shot plenty...
stop trying to make yourself a martyr. Just because you don’t realize you’re being rude to others don’t mean that you’re not being rude.
I fully accept that I can be abrasive, but you don’t see me moaning about being tarred and feathered.
Just like I said to BLou – if you’re gonna be rude to others, you shouldn’t expect any different in return.
by SouthernCub on May 25, 2009 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rudeness begats rudeness, you're right
So if I’m rude to you, that’s why.
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 25, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's fine...
just don’t cry about it when people are rude back to you, like you did in this thread.
by SouthernCub on May 25, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And quit representing MY stance
I’m not against improving the team. I am against this ridiculous yearning for … you-know-who. There’s more than one way to skin a cat.
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 25, 2009 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's "misrepresenting"
Sorry about that.
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 25, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are against trying to get DeRosa...
despite the fact that he would make the team better.
If you would admit that, but say you don’t think we’ll get him, that’s one thing. But you’ve ignored the fact that he would be an upgrade over what we have.
by SouthernCub on May 25, 2009 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think the Cubs will get him
nor do I want him. I think he had a career season last year, and that Mark II would be a disappointment. I think Hendry did the right thing by trading him for what appear to be some promising arms.
Why don’t you propose some alternatives? Seems like the DeRomantics don’t have any.
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 25, 2009 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why don't YOU propose alternatives?
So far, your alternative seems to be “Miles/Freel will be as good as DeRosa in the super utility role.” Please correct me if you disagree with my assessment of your stance here.
Statistically, I think it’s pretty clear that DeRosa will outperform Miles and Freel – even considering that last year was a career year. So I don’t buy the premise that Miles/Freel will be a suitable alternative. Hence, I recommend DeRosa. You’ve disagreed with that, but have thus far refused to discuss an alternative.
by SouthernCub on May 25, 2009 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm content with either
Miles/Freel or DGU’s idea about Huff. I find that intriguing. The Sun-Times even floated a Kouzmanoff possibility in today’s paper.
Do you find any of those acceptable? Or is DeRo the Alpha and Omega?
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 25, 2009 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kouzmanoff and/or Huff would be useful to fill in while Ramirez is out.
After that, what do you do with them? And would the cost in players be higher than the cost for DeRosa?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on May 25, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm curious what the cost on Kouzmanoff would be.
He’s young and less expensive and he’s not peforming well, but the Padres are stocked with 1B types. So, we couldn’t send them Hoffpauir or Fox to get it done.
Cleveland also has no use for those guys. And we know the demand for DeRosa is high.
For me the question isn’t just “What would this trade cost?” It’s also, “what type of player might the selling team be looking for?”
Derrek Lee is good.
by DGU on May 25, 2009 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
DeRosa is not the alpha and omega...
I wish you’d finally get that point, but perhaps I’m dreaming there.
I definitely disagree with the idea that Miles/Freel are comparable to DeRosa. They aren’t. They’re expected to be 75-100 points worse (if not more) in OPS than DeRosa.
As for Huff, I’d be happy with him as well. He’s even slightly better offensively than DeRosa, though he bats left-handed and I’m concerned we might be getting too left-handed. I’m less excited about Kouzmanoff, who has had only one above average season offensively.
Now, why are you so against the idea of DeRosa but so intrigued by Huff? Honest question – not meant in any way to be standoffish.
by SouthernCub on May 25, 2009 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have it on good authority...
That you can never be too left-handed. :) :-p
by CubsWin!Oregon on May 25, 2009 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Been there, done that
I think the idea of DeRosa appeals to a lot of Cubs fans because they remember him fondly. Would he put up the same numbers he did before? At this point, probably not.
Huff also is almost two years younger than him.
Don’t interpret this standoffishly, either, but I haven’t seen you float any other ideas other than DeRosa. Have I missed it?
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 25, 2009 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I haven't... Have you presented any?
It looks like you’ve recycled the same ones that others have today. Which I’m more than happy to discuss (in fact, I now have discussed them).
As for your “been there, done that” point, I’d argue that doing that again (or even a slightly declined version) is better than what we have now.
by SouthernCub on May 25, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So basically, no ideas
I gave you a chance, and you whiffed on it as badly as the Cubs have done the past week.
I know you are, but what am I?
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 25, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL - I believe the onus was on you...
I was in the group proposing the issue and a solution. You blasted me and others with no reasonable alternative. Then you demanded I give you ANOTHER alternative, rather than presenting one yourself.
You are being ridiculous. You bash people’s opinions, then expect them to come up with better ones when you won’t do it yourself?
Come on, man. Poor form.
I’ve never claimed to have the answers. But I can certainly rate the expected value of various options. That’s all I’ve done to this point. You have ignored even doing that, up until this thread (until the last post, when you just couldn’t help but go back to being snarky).
We were having a pleasant discussion for a minute there, and you had to go and blow it. Sad.
by SouthernCub on May 25, 2009 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Part of the problem, I think
is there aren’t many solutions here. And I think that’s worth keeping in mind as we watch the most likely occurrence – that the Cubs make no moves in the next 30 days.
Derrek Lee is good.
by DGU on May 25, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My alternative was to give the status quo more time
which you found unacceptable.
If you have a big man-crush on DeRo, just say so. God knows you’d have plenty of company.
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 25, 2009 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No man crush...
I just realize that DeRosa is substantially better than Freel/Miles.
As DGU has noted, it’s likely that no move is going to be made. But that’s less a function of not having a need, but rather simply because of the challenge in matching other teams’ needs with our needs.
by SouthernCub on May 25, 2009 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The last part
I’d agree with. It’s all well and good to talk about “the Cubs should get this or that,” but the truth is, it takes two (sometimes three) to tango.
If other teams don’t want what the Cubs offer, there’s not much you can do.
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 25, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
On this, I will agree with you 100%.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on May 25, 2009 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now if I could just convince you that DeRosa is better than Miles/Freel...
we’d be in complete agreement.
by SouthernCub on May 25, 2009 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baby steps, SC,
baby. steps. :)
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 25, 2009 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, here's one more idea: Fernando Tatis
The Mets now need a 1B – which we have to trade. Tatis can play 3B and should be a lot cheaper than DeRosa. Maybe we can even get a bullpen arm and Tatis for Hoffpauir or Fox.
Derrek Lee is good.
by DGU on May 25, 2009 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a thought
Although he’s no spring chicken, either.
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 25, 2009 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The last time...
… Tatis had any significant time at 3B was 2003.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on May 25, 2009 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's actually played a fair amount of PCL 3B
over the past two years. That said, it doesn’t look like he’s played a good 3B.
Derrek Lee is good.
by DGU on May 25, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we want that, we can just put Jake Fox there.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on May 25, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Issue with analyzing vs. Career BABIP...
I was just going to reply to SouthernCub, but figured I’d make it a new post since it might be a bit long.
I think SouthernCub and DGU are right in their criticism. You can’t use career BABIP in this sense as a barometer of what their BABIP should be this year because of the various factors that go into the type of contact.
Take Derrick Lee:
Lee’s FB% has sky-rocketed this year, which potentially indicates that he has changed his approach at the plate (thus affecting his LD%). Comparing against his career BABIP doesn’t take into account that (potential) change in plate-approach. Yet without understanding the mechanics of why/why not Lee is producing line-drives, we can’t calculate what his expected BABIP% should be across multiple-seasons..
Where I disagree with SouthernCub/DGU is that the way they’ve phrased their replies, it seems like they are implying (though I think unintentionally), respectively:
- We can’t analyze BABIP within the context of a single season;
- We can’t use BABIP to analyze this early in the season due to sample size issues.
On the first point, we can still analyze each players BABIP this year if we limit our analyses to this year and their present LD%. In effect, we’re simply saying that regardless of how they’re hitting LDs, the rate of doing so still tells us something. On the second point, it’s true that it’s probably still too early to say if their LD% is indicative of a season-long trend. But that’s somewhat irrelevent to whether or not up til now their current production of LDs has resulted in an expected number of hits. (Though I welcome a correction from DGU if I’m mistaken)
For those who don’t know, the shorthand formula for calculating (roughly) an expected BABIP is to add .12 to a players LD%. So:
Player…..BABIP’09…..LD%….. = Expected BABIP%
- Lee: ……… .280 …….. (.12 + .12) = .240
- Bradley…… .200 …….. (.132+ .12) = .252
- Soto……….. .266 …….. (.198+ .12) = .318
- Fontenot….. .222 ……. (.135+ .12) = .255
So…what that means is that in the context of their current production of line drives, Bradley, Soto, and Fontenot appear to have all been somewhat unlucky. Lee has actually has a higher batting average on balls in play than you would expect.
The caveat to this (especially Lee) is that you also want to analyze the FB%/HRs, which gives a better understanding of these numbers. For that reason, Lee’s over-performance is perhaps less alarming.
Again, the point (as SouthernCub and DGU already noted) is that you can’t merely compare to career BABIP as an indicated of future performance.
by CubsWin!Oregon on May 25, 2009 1:02 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
ergh...
Last sentence should read: "…you can’t merely compare to career BABIP as an indication of future performance.
by CubsWin!Oregon on May 25, 2009 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You've actually summarized (much more clearly) what I was trying to say...
My point was simply that looking at the BABIP and saying that they’ve been unlucky is not a sound approach. You need to consider other factors (such as line drive %) to get a good idea of whether it’s due to bad luck.
by SouthernCub on May 25, 2009 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rec'd; now let's make DLee a concrete example to talk this through.
Lee’s BABIP is low compared to his career BABIP. That’s quite a bit because of his low LD%. Why is he hitting less LDs?
I’d argue that all hitters go through stretches where they hit well, squaring the ball up, and stretches where they hit poorly. LD%, I’m arguing, doesn’t remain constant throughout the season. So, a hitter who starts the sesaon cold will have a low LD%, while a hitter who starts the season hot will have a high LD%.
With Derrek Lee’s FB% up, we can see that he’s changing his approach. I’ve speculated that he’s over-compensating for all his DPs last year. That may, therefore, keep his LD% down throughout the season as he tries to put everything in the air. Or, he may just be going through some odd stretches that will balance out on the season.
So, yes, the LD% and BABIP are interesting and useful tools to look at and useful even this early in the season. I, in fact, did a post looking at a lot of league-wide under-achievers looking at those #s 2 days ago. My contention is that while we’re starting to see some possible explanations, there are different ways things could go from here.
Derrek Lee is good.
by DGU on May 25, 2009 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
If it didn’t come through, I think that you, SouthernCub and I are all on the same page.
I was trying (and hopefully not pedantically) to clarify for other readers that BABIP is useful, but you have to realize its limitations.
A number of your previous posts have been useful in that regard.
by CubsWin!Oregon on May 25, 2009 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
Line drive rates are not stable from year to year at all. That means that this seasons line drive rate doesn’t accurately measure the players true talent level. For example, Lee’s career LD rate is 21.3 and it has hovered around 20 for the past three years. This year, in a much, much, much smaller sample size, it is 12.5. Which do you think accurately measures his true ability? Over 6000 career plate appearances and around 1700 the past 3 years, or 140 this year.
In fact, THT did a study on batted ball rates and BABIP, and they found that a previous years BABIP has nearly TWICE the predictive power of LD rate + .120. In fact, LD BABIP only has a correlation factor of .20, which is very small.
In short, using this year LD rate to predict future BABIP is blatantly wrong. You would be better served to take a weighted average of previous years BABIPs or using a more complex BABIP model like this one.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on May 28, 2009 12:07 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'll have to take a closer look at the links you provide...
In my cursory run though of them, they seem to be pretty intriguing. I do notice that the “more complex BABIP” link includes the following:
The regression lines changed in several ways. For one thing, line drive percentage came out significant in projecting BABIP again. It was surprising that it was so statistically insignificant while looking at the 2005-2008 data, but now it does seem like this is a persistent enough skill that it can be used in BABIP projection.
At any rate, if I’m correctly surmising your thoughts on him, I don’t disagree about Lee. In his case, I hoped to convey my thought that we can’t assume that his current BABIP based off of line drive is indicative of what his season long-trend will be (which is, I would argue, more or less synonomous with “talent-level” for a given year). In fact, I was trying to be careful in avoiding a trend projection analysis at all. I was simply examining his at-bats to date for this year, and using what I noted was a rough calculation for BABIP based off of those limited results, to suggest something only about those limited results. I wasn’t saying anything either about Lee’s actual ability or what I thought his season numbers would be.
As far as methodology goes (which is the crux of our disagreement, I think)…
I used the LD% + .120 because it’s the easiest way to short-hand a BABIP discussion. My doing so wasn’t to suggest that it’s the only (or correct) way to do it. I gather your point is that my methodology isn’t telling us BABIP at all. Perhaps someone wiser in statistics does find that to be the case (though others are arguing differently), but I wasn’t pretending that I was giving an exact, incontrovertable calculation.
Unless you’re suggesting that Lee’s true BABIP is not in fact significantly lower this year, then I don’t think that it matters if my approximation is overly rough. Whatever the true value is, so long as it is significantly different this year to last, then my point stands: It’s not helpful to assume last year as a model for understanding Lee this year.
I do dismiss simply looking at a previous year’s BABIP as a useful methodology for understanding BABIP in this year in this case. I find it fascinating that the correlation is .18 higher than a simple LD% analysis, and so I’ll have to do more reading on it. But if I had to guess I would think that that’s true only on a macro-evaluation of a the league at large. That method presupposes a continuity of approach to hitting. I would bet that most players do in fact exhibit such a continuity. But clearly some players don’t. My point about Lee is to suggest that he is likely among the latter grouping, and so previous years aren’t as indicative of we might expect. Perhaps you’re right that the sample size is too small for me to be that sure, but the trends in his types of contact seem suggestive to me that his manner of hitting has changed.
Anyway, as for the others…I suspect we both agree that their low BABIPs will eventually come around…
Thanks for the links. I’ll have some studying to do. :)
by CubsWin!Oregon on May 28, 2009 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right to say that the BABIP's of the players in question "should" be where they are
because of their low line drive rate. But it’s deffintiely incorrect to infer a lot, if anything at all, about the rest of the season because of their current LD rate.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on May 28, 2009 8:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Intelligent discourse?
This is madness!
"Those are my principles, and if you don’t like them, well, I have others." - Groucho Marx
by Keith on May 25, 2009 2:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Crazy, isn't it?
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes. :)
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 25, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As far as the stats go, no one's mentioned the obvious, which is that you need to take Fontenot completely out.
The guy’s career is way too short (600 total AB’s, only 240 even just last year)) to even talk about comparing this year to any past performance.
Or comparing any stat to any stat.
He basically has the equivalent of one full season under his belt.
by Realist Larry on May 28, 2009 1:03 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
In which case you are suppose to regress heavily to the mean
which is roughly a .300 BABIP, which is exactly what the author suggests doing.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on May 28, 2009 2:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fancy talk, but I like math too, and disagree w/ your assumption:
Just kidding, but we don’t know if he’s a "mean (average) player, do we?
The post is about asking whether we can expect guys to improve the rest of this season based on an assumption they will regress close to their career avg., not towards a mean.
Fontenot has no career avg., and therefore we can’t hope/assume he will do any better the rest of the year.
In 3 years he may have proved to be a career .240 hitter w/ an BABIP of .250……
by Realist Larry on May 28, 2009 7:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody consistantly has a BABIP is .250
And based on the limited sample size and observations, we can estimate that Fontenot is a lot better than that.
St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008
by vivaelpujols on May 28, 2009 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I shouldn't have used BABIP, you're right there-let's stick w/ batting avg.
I’m more concerned about real #‘s. Avg., extra base hits, clutch hits, BB vs. K’s, etc.
I think we’re getting sidetracked with this BABIP-as-a-predictive-stat thing. I’m not against Fontenot in any way, I’m just leery of making too much of his potential. I’m not sure what we’ve seen in his first 600 AB’s is what we’ll continue to get.
If teams find a hole in his swing and he can’t adjust, he may level off at a lower level.
His BABIP may stay around .300, but after hishot start then the sudden dropoff I’m not sure what’s going on.
It may be teams have learned about him and are adjusting, and his avg. may hover around .270 the rest of his career.
I certainly hope not .220!
But there are te Felix Pie’s of the world.
by Realist Larry on May 29, 2009 12:44 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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