Z's bunting -- Its own thread
by Worf on May 3, 2009 8:16 PM CDT
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PrintI know this has been touched upon in the game threads AND in Al's recap, but I also think this deserves it's own thread. I don't want this to overshadow Lee's resurgence, Fergie and Maddux, etc...
I have to disagree with my friend drew and those on his side, whose main argument, as I understand it, is that pitchers are players and should be expected to do everything a position player does.
If that's the case, why do they not field pop-ups?
In theory, it's a wonderful idea. A baseball player should be able to handle most parts of the game. But in practice, it's not realistic.
Most pitchers, even NL pitchers, have three jobs, and three jobs only.
1) Pitch
2) Field their position -- most importantly, get off the mound to cover first base
3) Lay down sacrifice bunts
Any hitting by any pitcher is gravy. Yes, it's nice that Zambrano (and Marquis before him, and Prior before him) can hit some. But that isn't why they are there.
There's also the small matter of a player's size and speed. Even if you subscribe to the theory that a pitcher should be able to hit like a position player, not all position players can leg out bunts.
Players HAVE limitations.
If you're Ramirez, you don't try to score from first on a single. If you're Fontenot, you don't attempt to put one in Milwaukee on a 3-0 count.
Greg Maddux was honored today. He had a 20-year career, and is in the top 5 list for greatest all time. He's arguably the best defensive pitcher ever to step on the field. And he was a very good bunter.
That was enough. That was more than enough.
It's cute and it's funny when Zambrano comes in and swings hard enough to chop down a tree with one swing.
At one point, it was thought to be cute when Jose Canseco wanted to pitch too.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Ask Fergie and Maddux
what they thought of Z’s bunt today.
And that should be “its,” not “it’s.” Sorry, I’m a stickler for grammar.
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 3, 2009 8:26 PM CDT reply actions
How many games did Maddux miss?
Because of fielding or baserunning issues?
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
That's not the point
He very easily could have missed games because of that. The guy had 18 Gold Gloves and was good for a couple of steals a year.
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 3, 2009 8:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, it IS the point
Ideas are as good or as bad as the results they produce. I never once saw Maddux walking off the field because he decided to steal.
Zambrano clearly isn’t in shape enough to pull stunts like this, so he shouldn’t do it.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
it's not a matter of being in shape.
Anyone can pull a hamstring.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 3, 2009 8:36 PM CDT up reply actions
I disagree there
If Zambrano does this 100 times, I bet his pulls something 50 of those times.
Theriot, on the other hand, won’t.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
He's done this sort of thing often
taken huge swings, run aggressively, and yet, he doesn’t come out of the game all the time.
He was doing what we teach kids to do — run every ground ball out. You aren’t going to be able to get him to NOT do it. Better to make sure he’s doing it right, and take care of him when he tweaks something.
We don’t even know the results of the MRI yet. Let’s not get out on the ledge just quite yet.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 3, 2009 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions
There is a difference between
running out a ground ball and trying something where the entire idea is to outrun the fielder.
Very few players can successfully leg out bunts. And I don’t think Zambrano’s body is meant to do it.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Well
he thinks it is. :D
Look, one person on the other thread said that they thought that Zambrano was favoring the leg coming out of the box — which meant he might have tweaked it on the bunt itself.
There’s no way to know exactly, and unless the MRI results have come back, we still don’t know what, if anything, is actually wrong.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 3, 2009 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions
And yet............
…………he continued to run hard down the line?
Brilliant. Simply brilliant.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
I'm not going to go through all the reasons why you're wrong again.
They’ve been amply repeated.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions
How could you possibly explain.........
………a guy pulling up injured out of the box yet still foolishly attempting to get to 1st base?
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
injuries.
they happen. The only way to make sure your players don’t get injured is to not let them play.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Avoidance...........
………..is a sure sign of defeat.
When you lack an answer to support your view, do you always meander off in a direction that STILL doesn’t support your view?
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
Avoid this, then:
Piniella isn’t worried about risking another leg injury on the basepaths.
“Look, we had no choices,” he said. "We’re trying to win baseball games, and he’s a good pinch-hitter. That has nothing to do with him getting hurt… He laid down a good bunt, it was a 2-2 ballgame. I know a lot of people say ‘Why did he bunt?’ Well, if he had hit a ball off the wall and hurt it trying to go into second with a double, (would they say) he should’t have hit a double?
“I don’t get the reasoning.”
Zambrano, who felt it pull three steps from the first base bag, referred to it as “my flat tire.” He also doesn’t understand why anyone would consider it a risk to let him pinch-hit when he doesn’t start. He said he’s an all-around player, and will do anything he can to help his team win.
“This is the National League,” he said. “In the National League, you have to be athletic and have to be able to do everything… Pinch-hitting had nothing to do with this.”
But pinch-hitters have to run to get on base.
“Well, I wasn’t running hard,” he said. “I pinch-hit three times. The first time I had a base hit, it was a 3-2 count and I wasn’t running hard. The second one was a fly ball to centerfield. I didn’t run hard. The third time I struck out. So it was not running.”
So he thinks Piniella will still use him as a pinch-hitter?
“I don’t know,” he said. “It’s up to (Piniella). But I will be able to do whatever they need me to do.”
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 5, 2009 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions
I love the way Cubs' management...........
………..is falling all over themselves to claim the play itself was “not a big deal”.
Me thinks they doth protest too much.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
lol
keep twisting and turning like that, and you’re liable to pull a muscle. You’re probably not properly trained.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 5, 2009 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions
Don't worry.
I answer the bell every day.
No DL trips for me!
However, I do appreciate your deep concern.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
seems tville
believes its a cover up by Lou
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I dunno Worf...
…don’t pitchers’ hammys have to be pretty toned for a lot of the torque and power behind throwing? Zambrano’s pitching motion makes me think that he finds a quite a bit of his power from his lower half.
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
Power? Yes
Speed? Not so sure.
Again, the results are in. He had to leave a game in the 5th inning and turn it over to a shaky bullpen.
The results make it a bad idea. It’s an even worse idea if he misses a start.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I'm gonna hold judgment until we hear how Z's MRI turns out.
He started the rally tht won the game for us. I feel A LOT better after taking 3/4 from the Marlins than I do if we went 2/4. Zambrano is a big, big reason we were successful this weekend—his running, hitting, and throwing was spot on this weekend.
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
Well, that's a brave thing to do
Reserve judgment until you know what his MRI says? Sounds like situational ethics to me.
Like I said, if Z gets hurt breaking a bat over his knee, that’s stupid and foolish. This isn’t that.
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 3, 2009 8:50 PM CDT up reply actions
This is the equivalent
of a QB getting a concussion while blocking. Yes, it makes the fans happy seeing such a tough QB.
But that’s not his job.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I dunno
right now, it’s the equivalent of the QB getting shook up while blocking. We don’t even know if there are any long-term effects.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 3, 2009 9:16 PM CDT up reply actions
The QB couldn't finish the game
That’s enough for me.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
you have to admit
the bullpen did a pretty good job today.
Is it worth it for Z to do it every time he plays? Not if he’s going to get injured 100% of the time. But he’s not.
In the end, he’s paid to play baseball. The QB is paid to play football. There are risks in either of them. After all, in the top of the fifth, there was a ball batted that went between Z’s glove and his head. A little to the left, and it would have hit him in the face.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 3, 2009 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions
You want to have the bullpen
Come in during the 5th inning of every Zambrano start?
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
of course not.
But he’s not going to get hurt every time he legs out a bunt.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions
That's not what I meant, I should have been more clear.
I meant I’m not going to freak out or complain about something that may or may not happen. We don’t know the length of his “injury” until the MRI results are out.
And as for situational ethics, no, I don’t think it was a bad idea for Zambrano to run, and understanding his high-intensity persona, we aren’t gonna change it. So if we are gonna take Zambrano for all he’s worth, we are going to get his over-extended swings at the plate, and we are gonna get a guy that busts his balls on every play (some times against our best desires).
Dan
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
Sorry for misunderstanding
I agree with your post.
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 3, 2009 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions
he could have pulled it
covering first on a grounder to Lee just as easily
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
+1
That has happened several times. There have been players that have taken on stepout of the bater’s box a pulled a muscle. For Z, running out a but is no mre inherently risky that covering first. It just so happens he got hurt this time. The hundreds of other times he ran hard to first he didn’t. That’s life.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on May 4, 2009 8:08 AM CDT up reply actions
To further your comment
Some take Zambrano to task for bunting and hustling, saying he needs to swing the bat. With his upper-cut swing and the velocity of it, he could pull an oblique just as easily, or tweak his back.
Because of the possibility of injury, should the Cubs effectively reign him in?
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
especially
because as a switch hitter oblique injuries are especially common (see Chipper Jones).
I see no reason to reign Z in. He could just as easily hurt himself fielding his position (i mentioned Cole Hammels earlier).
Oriole by nurture. Cub by marriage.
Exactly
Pushing off the pitching rubber also taxes the legs – there are plenty of chances for Zambrano to get hurt – it just so happened to be while running.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
thats not true
it wasnt the fact that he was hustling down the line that caused him to injure his hamstring, it was the fact that he overstretched his leg for the base. If you really think that this injury would have happened 50% of the time your crazy. And people seem to forget that his bunt single is what lead to the 4 run inning that won us that game. It could have been a very different inning if Z strikes out instead of laying down that bunt. Z is gonna miss 2 or 3 starts in may, we’ll be fine. I don’t understand why Z is being trashed for showing some hustle. There is plenty of times i wish some of the other players on the team, like soriano in the field sometimes, would show some heart and hustle like Z does.
Hope you enjoy your complete player on the DL
A 265 pd man should not be trying to beat out a bunt
2-3 weeks = 3-5 starts….. hope we dont lose the division by 3 games…
he is pitcher and nothing else
by Reed's Johnson on May 4, 2009 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions
you should tell Lou that he's only a pitcher and nothing else....
since he was used as a PH’er in the last couple games before yesterday.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 4, 2009 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Primarily because..........
………..his bench is thin due to injuries.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
but he's ONLY a pitcher....NOTHING else.
Why weren’t there 5 fanposts about how dumb it was to put Z into a game as a PH’er because he could get hurt?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 4, 2009 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Because the answer would be.............
………….“he could get hurt shagging fly balls”, or something similar.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
Lou and Z both disagree with you
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 5, 2009 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions
I disagree
that ideas are as good or as bad as they results they produce, I mean, that comment infers that the future can be accurately predicted to the point that one can chose to act on an idea or not.
This remark makes me think that Zambrano knew he was going to tweak his hammy, but decided to bunt anyways. Like everyone has said, he comes up from that with no problem, then everyone would be hailing his play. Not to mention, he did technically start a 4-run rally, so technically it was a good idea in part because a result of it was a huge inning
I think I do remember Maddux once ending an inning trying to steal second. Correct me if I’m wrong but I thought I remembered a game during his second stint with the Cubs
I see your point
But if he can handle himself at the plate let him swing away. He can take the ball to the opposite field, beat out infield grounders which for his size he has great speed. Its tough on a pitcher out there sayin ok I got Aaron Miles, then oh no not Big Z and Soriano in a row. So Z is gonna get better pitches to hit. Its not always a bad thing like most NL teams when you got a pitcher where you actually have to pitch to, and not throw 3 strikes down the middle of the plate for a strikeout and consider the pitcher always a out when he comes up.
The problem with Z is...
… that he approaches everything with passion. Usually, this isn’t a “problem”, especially when he’s pitching. But we have seen him break bats over his leg — what’s the point of that? And often, when he pinch-hits, you can tell he’s trying to hit a 900-foot home run, instead of approaching the AB to just get on base (yesterday’s PH at-bat was a bit better in this regard, though).
I’m kind of on the fence. Had Z beaten out the bunt and NOT been hurt, we’d all be applauding his aggressiveness. Today, his aggressiveness got him hurt and might cause him to miss a start. If I thought he had bunted for the right reason — I might be a bit better with the result. But as I wrote in the recap, it seemed like an “I’m gonna show you guys” type of moment, and that’s better left undone.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I don't know, Al
I’m not sure that was his motivation. We’re not mind-readers, after all.
I do agree with you about the silly expressions of that passion, like breaking bats over his knee. But I don’t think what happened today falls into that category.
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 3, 2009 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions
He also swings like
he’s about to tear a rib cage.
This would be the equivalent of Miles having to come in to pitch in a 15-0 game and trying to snap off a few curves or screwballs.
His main job is not to get on base. It’s nice that he wants to, but that’s not his main job.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I think
he was looking to start a rally.
And he did.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 3, 2009 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions
And he's damn lucky
Lee hit a grand slam instead of a long sac fly.
Had the Cubs ended that inning with a 3-2 lead going to the bullpen, this is a whole different game.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
sure
but you can’t play what might have beens. You can only say “this is what happened.”
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 3, 2009 8:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Wait... WHAT?!
How on earth do you conclude that Z bunted in an “I’ll show you guys” way? Seriously, how could you possibly come to that conclusion? That seems like something that just popped into your mind randomly and you went with it.
And, frankly, who cares what his motivation was? He accomplished what he set out to do — get a hit. His motivation for bunting has nothing to do with him getting hurt.
If you don't assign Z some strange mentality then you can't blame him for bunting, right?
It’s essential for those criticizing Zambrano’s effort to get on base to assign some sort of misguided thought process. You see, when they do that they can justify denigrating the man. He deserves to be put down for hustling and getting on base because he was actually only motivated by his desire to one up his opponent. It’s not nearly as dramatic to say that Z is a smart ball player and when he saw how deep the 3rd baseman was he decided to lay one down thinking he would have a pretty good shot at beating it out. It turns out Z’s inclination was right and he was able to beat it out, it wasn’t even that close. It was perfectly executed by Zambrano, a highly skilled all-around player. Unfortunately he strained his hamstring in the process of playing the game, it happens. There are innumerable way for players to injure themselves and it can happen on any play.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on May 3, 2009 10:32 PM CDT up reply actions 8 recs
My love for Z may leave me biased
but consider this rec’d
And on the sixth day, God created Joakim Noah...
If it was perfectly executed..........
………no fielder would have touched the ball and he could have walked to first base.
Instead, it was marginally executed and he was saved by a poor throw.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
Are you kidding?
Did you SEE the play? And I realize that was hyperbole, but at no time would you not have to hustle to beat out a bunt. You could hit a clean single to left and you would be out if you walked to first…
It was a heads up play by Z. He happened to get hurt on it, but you gotta give the man props. He is making $18.75 Million this year and he is bunting to get on base in a tie game the first part of May. Give me 25 players with that kind of heart and desire to win and the Cubs’ drought would have been over many, many years ago.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
There's general hustle.........
……….and then balls-to-the-wall-pull-a-hammy running.
If executed properly, only the former would have been required.
I’ll take the 25 players with strong heart and desire, but such characteristics channelled improperly will not resolve any team’s problems.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
there are only three ways
a ball lets a runner get to first without a fielder touching the ball.
1) Walk.
2) HPB
3) HR.
I’m pretty sure a Balk only advances runners that are on, rather than sending the batter to first.
A perfectly executed bunt is one where the fielders get to the ball and don’t throw it. So, one could say, that this was was NEARLY perfectly executed, because the fielder did get to the ball — the pitcher by the way, and really, shouldn’t Nolasco be leaving that up to the catcher? He could pull a hammy running down off the mound like that — but the throw was late.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions
Right. Catcher's ball.
But only because the right-fielder wasn’t in position to make the play.
Your ongoing and pathetic attempts to twist words fail to support your cause.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
this really is
your white whale, innit, Ahab?
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Catchers Interference
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
what
like if Molina reached up to grab Ted Lilly’s, ah, bat?
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions
pretty much
junk like that gets you to first base
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
junk!
ISWYDT.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions
So you're not familiar with the rule?
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
and if I'm not?
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Again............
………….direct answer, please?
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
Or at least..........
………..look it up!
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
rec'd
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions
it was for the right reason
People always look too far into things with Z. Bonifacio is a natural 2nd baseman who was playing third and he was practically giving a hit down that line. Z did what any smart baseball player would do, regardless of position, and he laid down the bunt and took his hit. It was just an unfortunate outcome, but that’s life, things always dont go as planned.
I think you're forgetting one aspect:
Young guys that turn into MLB starting pitchers often are the best overall player on their teams, leagues, conferences, etc., not just the best hurler. Lots of these guys hit AND pitch in high school and college, and then all-of-a-sudden, stop hitting. Lots of pitchers these days can still get the job done at the plate if given the opportunity. I’m thinking of Marquis, Zambrano, Dontrelle Willis (of years’ past…), Micah Owings, and the turned OFer, Rich Ankiel. Why waste an out when you don’t have to forfeit it?
Zambrano just tweaked his hammy. These are issues when you’re playing in the senior circuit. I’d MUCH rather see a player hustle his ass off than lollygag his way to first or strike out with the bat on his shoulder.
Dan
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
by dtpollitt on May 3, 2009 8:35 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
That's fair...
But a lot of those guys play OF in high school as well. Should we make Harden or Lilly the fourth OF?
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
do we get
to DFA Gathright as part of that deal?
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 3, 2009 8:40 PM CDT up reply actions
hah!
You know, they turned Babe Ruth into an outfielder for a reason… :D
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 3, 2009 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Too bad none of the pitchers mentioned............
……….could even pitch as well as Ruth.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
I'm just saying that...
…it’s close-minded to cold turkey guys that are decent hitters. If they have more than one weapon and we have a depleted bench (like we do), they can be quite useful.
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
Just the fact that these guys are the last resort
should indicate this is a bad idea.
I’m looking over the last 10 NL World Series winners. I’m having a hard time finding a #1 starter who attempted to leg out bunts.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
well
since six of the last ten WS have been won by the AL, you’re looking at a VERY small sample size. DBacks, Marlins, Cardinals, Phillies. That’s four #1 starters.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 3, 2009 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions
No... last 10 WS winners
Phillies, Cardinals, Marlins, DBacks, Braves, Reds, Dodgers, Mets, Cardinals again and Dodgers again.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
So, you looked at every single pitcher's at bats during their WS seasons?
Or, do you just remember every single at bat off the top of your head? Or are you just assuming no pitcher attempted to bunt for a base hit because you don’t remember it occurring?
by Acapulco Taco Pie on May 3, 2009 10:35 PM CDT up reply actions
I think the main point is that Al and drew have made...
is that that’s a part of Z’s game, and he isn’t going to change it. At least he hustles, unlike some everyday players of years past.
I know that one wants to be cautious with a player, but the fact is if he can’t run, then he’s in poor shape as it is. After all, he could have tweaked that hamstring trying to help DLee field a ball hit to the right side. God knows he would have caught hell had he not made it to the bag on a fielding play.
I might be wrong
but I dont remember anybody sayin in game 7 in the NLCS Kerry Wood to lay down a sac bunt. Instead we got a 2 run shot to left center field. I know its way different a shot to go to the World Series and game 24 of the regular season and chances 9 out of 10 times not hitting one out, but if its just about Z gettin hurt today is one thing, but pitchers having 3 jobs and one is lay down sac bunts I dont think is always the case.
I don't have any problem with Zambrano's bunt today.....
Now, I’d be a little pissed if the Cubs were winning, say, 7-2 at the time.
The game was tied, and Zambrano wanted to get on base and get something going for the team…. not a whole lot of good things transpired, offensively, for the Cubs early on. With Soriano up to the dish after Z wanted to try and jump start the offense. IMO, this bunt had nothing to do with Nolasco’s bunt.
It’s an injury that happens. NOLA made a good point that this strain could have been ‘destined’ (maybe the wrong verb) to happen and would have occurred if Z had make a lot of effort to field a ball earlier on in the ballgame or later on had he not been injured while batting.
Hopefully he doesn’t miss an extended period of time but I applaud the effort given today and passion he displays while he’s wearing the blue pinstripes.
"It's hard to win 97 games, it's hard to win the division. Our attitude is if you get in every year, you get in most of the time, sooner or later you are going to knock that door down." -- Jim Hendry
I love passion
I just want intelligence to go with it.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
TWSS
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
Smooth.
"It's hard to win 97 games, it's hard to win the division. Our attitude is if you get in every year, you get in most of the time, sooner or later you are going to knock that door down." -- Jim Hendry
I've said it a dozen times
Hustle without intelligence is slapstick comedy.
I’m sure Cedeno was running as hard as his little legs would take him when he overran second 3,109 times. (Give or take a few)
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I thought it was a very smart play.
Not doing everything you can to get on base would be the dumb play, in my opinion. Z saw that they weren’t playing in and he took advantage. Sounds like a smart play to me.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on May 3, 2009 9:48 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
It was a smart play but don't you know that Z is a volatile hot head that doesn't think?
At least that’s how he’s been pigeon-holed by a lot of Cubs fans.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on May 3, 2009 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions
it was also challanging a player
who is not an everyday 3B. that allowed Theriot to see that he can do the same, and so on.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Timmy...
Now Zambrano is the cerebral one?
We’re doomed.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
the hammy going running down the line
could have been ready to pop (if that is what the MRI reveals). If that is the case, it could have popped covering first, or throwing a fastball, right?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I don't agree
Your body gets into trouble when you ask it to do things you don’t normally do. Running flat-out for 90 feet and landing awkwardly on the bag is not something Z asks his body to do.
And even if it pops covering first, I’d rather that. That’s part of the job description.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Fair enough..
But IMO,
lack of intelligence = breaking a bat over your knee / punching a gatorade cooler
Intelligence = bunting for a base-hit
He’s a baseball player trying to get on base for his team. A pitcher, yes, but I don’t see any problem with what he did today. The team’s offense wasn’t too impressive prior to this…. he was trying to jump start it.
There’s something wrong with the definition of a pitcher when they are perfectly capable of doing things a position player does but are discouraged to do so.
"It's hard to win 97 games, it's hard to win the division. Our attitude is if you get in every year, you get in most of the time, sooner or later you are going to knock that door down." -- Jim Hendry
by EJThunder on May 3, 2009 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not sure Zambrano is "perfectly capable"
If he was, he’d be out there.
Ramirez can’t leg out a bunt single. Lee couldn’t. God knows we don’t want Bradley trying it. Soto probably can’t.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
but if they
laze down the basepaths on a dribbler up the third-base line, they get slammed for not having enough dedication and scrappiness.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 3, 2009 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions
There is dedication... and intelligence
I don’t want guys sliding head first into first base or doing that, “last second lunge” that results in sprained knees on balls where they are clearly out by 10 feet, either.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
What does intelligenance have to do with this?
I think you may be using the wrong description.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on May 3, 2009 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions
excuse the typo
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on May 3, 2009 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Big picture
Game intelligence. Knowing what your body can do and what it can’t do.
His play was just as stupid as it would be if Ramirez tried to score from first on a single. Maybe he will make it, on sheer surprise if nothing else, but we don’t win a lot of games, or keep guys healthy, if that’s consistent.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
It's not the same. Players try to bunt for a base hit all the time. When was
the last to you saw even a fast guy try and score from first on a single. I think you are being way to hard on Z. Yes, he has done some stupid things as a Cub, but I would not put this in that catagory. Pitchers run much more than position players. That’s pretty much all they do in ST. He’s not a china doll. He could just as easily pull a muscle going after a ball on the mound. Explosion injuries like pulls happen at unpredictable times. You can’t avoid them by saying “Don’t make any sudden moves.” It doesn’t work that way.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on May 3, 2009 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions
It is nothing at all like that
What an asinine comment.
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 3, 2009 11:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Martyr, schmartyr
Nice of you to follow one asinine comment with another. At least you’re consistent.
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 4, 2009 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions
You do realize you're talking about running 90 feet?
I’ve seen Z run as fast as he can to 1st base ever since he became a Cub. That’s been around 8 years or so?
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on May 4, 2009 12:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Exactly.
Like I said: There’s something wrong with the definition of a pitcher when they are more than capable of doing things a position player can do but are discouraged to do so.
"It's hard to win 97 games, it's hard to win the division. Our attitude is if you get in every year, you get in most of the time, sooner or later you are going to knock that door down." -- Jim Hendry
Clearly, he isn't capable
Or else he wouldn’t have gotten hurt
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Save your keystrokes.
After wasting hours last night on the game post (sorry I didn’t see this thread sooner), I’ve come to the conclusion some folks are not going to grasp the concept. That’s not a slam, but just a fact, or perhaps a simple difference of opinion.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
oh, cmon, Worf.
He tweaked his hamstring, he didn’t break his leg or anything. He doesn’t have hemophilia and deliberately cut his throat.
Players get injured. Marmol got hurt coming off the mound funny, and that cost us at least one game. Z got hurt running to first, and he helped win the game. I know which I prefer.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions
Cole Hammels
recently rolled his ankle fielding a GB coming down off the mound, freak accidents happen to pitchers. Its much more dangerous for them to field their position than to run out a bunt.
Oriole by nurture. Cub by marriage.
when Z hits it on the ground
he ALWAYS runs as fast as he can. I’ve never seen him laze up the line.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions
Soto had an inside the park homer
does that count?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
it was intelligence
he saw the third baseman playing back and took his hit. what wouldn’t be smart is seeing that and Z thinking Im a power hitter i don’t need to lay down a bunt and swinging for the fences. I would expect Lilly, Harden, etc. to do the same. (all of which have tried to lay down bunts for hits already this season)
TWSS
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
Credit his effort
Zambrano could have pulled a hammy while pitching, while doing his off-day running, while shagging flies in the outfield, or while covering first base. Don’t pillory him because he tried to make something happen. He simply tried to take advantage of the situation.
Ladies and gentlemen! It's 1985 all over again, but this time the offense goes to hell!
by Ross on May 3, 2009 9:21 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
And the Brewers are sure to take advantage
of whichever overmatched AAA pitcher we’re calling up to take his spot.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
So let's say he doesn't bunt and reach...
… he doesn’t bunt, doesn’t reach. Then Lee doesn’t hit a slam. Then the game is still tied. Then maybe the Marlins score a couple of runs and Z pulls his hammy covering first base. The Cubs lose, and the Brewers get the chance to rough up “whatever overmatched AAA pitcher they call up to take his spot.”
It happened. They won today. Maybe they will win Friday. Let’s not start kvetching until the OAAAP does his thing on Friday.
Ladies and gentlemen! It's 1985 all over again, but this time the offense goes to hell!
Really? You know this how?
Maybe the Cubs score 12 runs that day and it doesn’t really matter who is pitching. Did the Brewers acquire Randy Johnson today and I missed it?
Maybe Z pitches. Maybe he doesn’t. I think the Cubs will survive that day, thanks.
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 3, 2009 11:36 PM CDT up reply actions
And maybe whomever they bring up pitches brillantly and wins their debut.
Why not look at it as an opportunity to a pitcher looking for a chance?
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on May 4, 2009 12:28 AM CDT up reply actions
That's true!
Let’s have all the pitchers take headfirst slides into first base and, if they get a chance, plow into the catcher!
Or, we could have them step into a pitch, you know, take one for the team!
Gotta get those AAA guys a chance!
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
hyperbole
is hyperbolic. :D
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions
If Z hadnt hurt himself
We would all be praising his genius to lay down that bunt. But he legged it out and pulled his hammy. Pulling a hammy can happen so easy he could have done it doing a warm up jog. I have been running for 8 years of my life, and just last winter I pulled my hammy. It can happen to anyone.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
WHAT IS THE LONG TERM EFFECT ??
Who will take Z’s spot in the rotation ?? Let’s hope this is a very short term injury … Not sure who from Iowa can match up to Z’s ability….. Enough Said…
we don't even know the results
of the MRI yet. Word is he may miss ONE start. Till we know more…
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions
And Lou has already said
They will have to DL someone and bring up a starter
If Zambrano goes on the DL, that’s THREE starts he misses. If they finally DL Lee or Bradley, that’s 15 games without players just starting to heat up a bit.
This decision gets worse every minute.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I haven't read anything
that says that someone is automatically getting DLd.
Maybe they DL Cotts. Then you’d be happy, wouldn’t you? Maybe they work out a way to keep Patton and send him down. Or maybe they don’t DL anyone, and shuffle the starters so that Marshall takes Z’s start.
We don’t know ANYTHING yet.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions
The decision isn't getting any worse.
The consequences may be.
Unless you’re saying it would have been a good decision if he didn’t hurt himself.
Decisions are only as good or bad as the consequences they produce
It still would have been a bad decision, but he would have gotten away with one.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
You just contradicted yourself.
If the consequences produced had been loaded bases followed by a grand slam and no injury, I would say the consequences were indisputably good.
If decisions are only as good as the consequences they produce, and this decision produced good consequences, the decision was…what now?
I don't consider Zambrano missing a start
a good result.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Wow. Let me try...
Sleeping with a complete stranger and not contracting a disease or getting pregnant = good decision.
Driving drunk down the highway at 100 MPH and not hitting anything = good decision.
This is fun!
"I'll never forget how I felt last October." ~Kosuke Fukudome
I think it is silly
to criticize Z for trying to help his team win a game. He’s a baseball player and was using all of the talents he has to put a run on the board. Athletes get hurt; it’s part of the game. Maybe Bradley and Ramirez shouldn’t try to beat out balls down the line either, or Lee should cut down on his swing so he doesn’t hurt his neck again. I don’t have a problem with what he did.
I am confused by the Maddux comparison
Maddux spent HOURS every week taking batting practice. He spend much of it on bunts but he loved nothing more than to hit. Z got injured hitting , big deal. If more Cub pitchers were better bunters than we would be in FAR better shape. The inability of Cub pitchers to sacrifice runners is many cases is a serious defect. Pitchers should be getting a lot more batting practice than they do. For the record I still believe Corey Patterson lost his career when he got a season ending injury in his breakout year in 03 trying to beat out an infield hit because the Cubs were desperate to get runners on base. Accidents happen. I thought pinch hitting Z yesterday with a FIVE run lead was very stupid, I think his bunting to get on base today was good baseball.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
There are sacrifice bunts and bunts for a hit
And in fact, they are two different types of bunts.
YES, our pitchers should be working on sacrifices. NO, they shouldn’t be bunting for a base hit.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
You seem to have a problem with Z getting injured while running to
first trying to get a hit. Would you have felt better if he had gotten hurt while running to first to cover on a ball hit to the right side?
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on May 4, 2009 7:19 AM CDT up reply actions
We'd rather he not be hurt, but.........
………if injury must come, it should be while he’s performing his PRIMARY task with the team.
Fielding his position while on the hill falls under this description.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
I contend that it makes no difference. If he's hurt, he's hurt. How
he got hurt is really immaterial if was within the context of being a baseball player. There is no gaurantee that if a pitcher never tries to bunt for a base hit, he will never get injured. Z is a bit different from the avaerage pitcher. He is an offensive force. He’s going to try to put runs on the board board himself, that’s part of his game. You may not like it, but him not trying to bunt for hits is not going to preclude him from getting injured. You may feel it’s an unecessary risk, but it’s part of his makeup.
It’s easy to come after the fact and say “He shouldn’t have done it because he got hurt.”, but that is classic monday morning quarterbacking. Hinsight is always 20-20. The fact is, Z is an offensive weapon. Sure, there is risk with doing anything that could result in a injury, but that particular risk comes with this package.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on May 4, 2009 7:55 AM CDT up reply actions
This isn't hindsight, at least not in my case.
I’d never endorse this kind of play by the pitcher. Period. As mentioned in this post, it’s akin to a man playing out of position and such maneuvers are fraught with peril.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
except
that as a baseball player in the National League, pitchers are expected to bat, and therefore, batting is NOT “out of position”.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions
If you want to call it batting
There’s a reason pitchers win Silver Sluggers with .225 averages. A .200 hitting pitcher is like a .300 hitting position player.
If pitchers were equal, they’d have averages on par with everyone else.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
the reason why pitchers have low batting averages
is that they don’t bat every day. This is a function of their pitching — they don’t play every day.
If Joey Gathright bunted for a hit as a pinch hitter, we’d expect him to leg it out as hard as possible. But he doesn’t see live pitching every day.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions
I think you're coming around..........
……….based on this example, but I can’t be sure.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
the fact that they don't see live pitching every day
has absolutely no effect on the fact that they’re in the NL and they’re supposed to bat, and they’re supposed to leg out every hit.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions
or refuses to get it
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Sue..
Clearly, we disagree on this. But I did want to thank you for calling out the person calling me names on the other thread.
I’m reaching “agree to disagree” territory here, mainly because I have to get back to my job and I’m going out to dinner tonight and I just am not sure I am up for reading 300 posts later.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
And neither is Worf.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
hear it from the lips of Lou and Z themselves:
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 5, 2009 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions
harassing again........
hours later
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
Like the knight........
……….in “Holy Grail”. Defeated, but fight on.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
I also think
it’s interesting that you complain about how people have too much time to spend on this post, then you go after people for not being able to post 24/7.
Providing the words from the players involved is harassing?
Really?
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 5, 2009 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions
That was not me dood.............
complaining about how much, or little, people post. You’re confusing me with someone else you’ve argued with.
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
Oh, but it was you.
Just ask DGU
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 6, 2009 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Why?
Because you say so? Stop pretending like pitchers are these glass figurines that can’t play the game hard like everyone else is EXPECTED to do.
Pitchers AREN'T expected to do the same thing
If they were, they’d get to field their own pop-ups. They’d not have to run the bases with a jacket on. They’d play other positions in between starts.
How many other pitchers pull this kind of stunt? How many Cy Young-caliber pitchers risk their bodies in this manner?
Like I said at the top, Greg Maddux didn’t pull crap like this. I’ll take his career over Z’s any day.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
It's not a stunt, it's part of his game. You may not like it, but it's a risk
he has chosen to take. It’s obvious you have a real problem with Z trying to bunt for a hit but I think you protests are a bit extreme for this case. The fact is, he could have gotten injured in many other ways. He could have gotten hit in the hand while at-bat. If a layer is in shape ,and so far Z has, running to first to beat out a bunt is no more of a risk than standing at the plate. I don’t feel the context of the injury is as big of a deal as you let on. If he had gotten injured riding a motorcycle, I would agree with you, but that’s not the case. He got injured playing. The amount of risk involved is certainly debateable, but not quite as black and white as you seem to think.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on May 4, 2009 8:04 AM CDT up reply actions
I hate arguments like this
It’s the equivalent of saying, “Well, we’re going to die anyway…so let’s jump out of an airplane without double-checking to see if the chute is packed right”
Yes, injuries happen, but there are needless injuries too.
Most of us would be screaming if Lou left Zambrano in for 200 pitches and he got hurt. Yes, it’s entirely possible he would have gotten hurt at 110 pitches, but the chances are far less likely.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
It's not the same. My point was that there are some inherent
risks associated with even taking the field. The question is “Was it an unecessary risk taken when Z tried to beat out a bunt?” I don’t feel it was needless. Putting up offensive numbers is part of his game. You may not like it, but it’s the way he plays. What may be a risk to one player is not necessarily a risk to another player. That is our point of contention. Sure, injuries happen and you minimize them by getting in shape and not taking unecessary risks like trying to bowl over the catcher when you are clearly out. To some players that is not a risk. I don’t think you can lump all pitchers into a group and say that they should never try to beat out a bunt. It’s like saying “No pitcher should ever throw more than 100 pitches.” To some pitchers, that is risky. To others, it’s not.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on May 4, 2009 8:48 AM CDT up reply actions
the top fo that very inning
someone sent a line-drive right between Z’s glove and his face. A few inches to the left, and he could have been clocked right in the head, and THAT would have been VERY serious. Should we make pitchers wear helmets when they pitch? Should we make them pitch from behind a screen? They do this in batting practice.
Baseball is a hard-played sport, and you can get hurt. This is the way the game works.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions
He shouldn't be fielding balls
He is a precious china doll who is only out there to pitch. /end sarcasm
The Cubs play in the NL, pitchers are going to bat, why should they go up there with the mentality that they are just an easy out? Why not show that you can hit. Teams have started to shift for Z cause they know he can hit, and what does he do? Makes a smart play and bunts for a hit.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
All the more reason not to take unnecessary chances
Again, it’s like a QB being the lead blocker.
Why take the chance?
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
because
you play to win.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions
But if you use the logic here...
The Cubs were going to win anyway, because Lee was going to homer.
The logic has been that Z’s hammy was going to go and if he didn’t leg out the bunt, it would have gone as soon as he fielded a bunt.
By that logic, Lee was going to homer. It just would have been a three-run shot instead of a grand slam. Still enough to win.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
There is no way
to know if Lee homers, there is no logic there.
The point with Z’s hammy is it could have gotten hurt at anytime, even doing something pitchers do routinely.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
again
you can’t play what if. Z had no idea Lee was going to homer. At the time, the game was tied, and perhaps he felt the team needed a momentum changer.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 6, 2009 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Pitchers not fielding pop-ups...
is a whole other debate, but I think that’s a stupid thing that goes on too. They can shag BP fly balls, yet they can’t catch a pop up on the mound? Ridiculous.
And I love how you call it a “stunt” and “crap.” Get a grip, man. The dude layed down a bunt and got a hit. How on earth that classifies as a “stunt” is beyond me.
Your thoughts on this are way over the top.
Sometimes "bad baseball".........
……….gets reduced to “stunt” and “crap” status.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
I think it's because
it’s pretty easy to twist an ankle coming off the mound.
Also, MOST of the time, those pop-ups are behind the pitcher. It’s easier to make a catch coming in than going out. Combine that with coming off the mound… I think they don’t do it because they’re more likely to miss it.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions
Greg Maddux
legged out every bunt, stole bases, and did everything else that NL pitchers are expected to do.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions
They should be doing ANYTHING within reason to get on base
Should Lilly not have hit the double ? Should he have stopped at first so as not to run too hard ? Lilly had a nice comment after about pitchers NEEDING to hit, bunt or do whatever it took to get on base.
Maddux was actually used as a PINCH runner often in his early years and a few times in his later years. He is a very smart runner and loved running bases. Last year he became the oldest pitcher to steal a base, should he not have bothered to get in scoring position ?
He considered one of his greatest achievements that in two seasons he had a higher BA than ERA ( to be fair this was mainly because his ERA was so low but he was very proud of being able to hit over .200 and worked very, very hard at it.) One reason he would never play in the AL was that he couldn’t bat.
Based on your final sentence our pitchers should just try to bunt and then just walk up the line ? Make no attempt to get on base ?
This is truly nuts. Thank goodness neither managers nor players practice such a stupid idea.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on May 4, 2009 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions 7 recs
Agreed and rec'd
The Z and Maddux comparison holds up quite well in the hitting aspect and is particularly apropos because it was Maddux’s day yesterday. I do not think that Greg would have any problems with Z’s hustle or at bat.
Its a shame to see Z get injured on the play, but you cannot fault his attempt to get on base that is for sure.
Oriole by nurture. Cub by marriage.
I don't ever recall Maddux having to walk off the field
after stealing either.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
so?
maybe he was just lucky. Maybe he hid it. Maybe he wasn’t as strong, and therefore not as susceptible to that kind of injury.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Me neither
but then again Cal Ripken played hard and never missed a game for years on end. Many players either play through the pain or are just blessed with remarkable health.
This is the kind of injury that happens one of two ways, poor conditioning or a freak accident. If its poor conditioning then we can blame Carlos and the training staff. However, based on the fact that Carlos is a dedicated guy I doubt that conditioning is to blame. He tweaked his Hammy, this is not an uncommon baseball injury. I honestly do not understand the uproar.
Oriole by nurture. Cub by marriage.
Maddux was only on the DL once
for two weeks and it was from back strain not an arm injury. He was a combination of lucky , smart and good. The day after Prior was struck with the line drive , a nearly identical ball was hit at Maddux who dove on his ASS very fast. He had better reflexes and knew when he should duck.
For the record one of the things Maddux loved most was to fake a bunt and then poke it over the drawn in infield and
yes leg out an infield hit.
I think using Z to pinch hit with five run lead was really dumb and if he had been injured THEN there would be hell to pay but for the last time, hitting is one of his jobs and he is really good at it. Accidents happen but having him try a bunt was a smart move not a bad move.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on May 4, 2009 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions
That's exactly what I saw him do
in Cincinnati in 2004 (I think).
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 4, 2009 11:25 PM CDT up reply actions
you mean you want Z
to be a baseball player, not a pitching machine only?
REC’d and Agreed
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I think we have different definitions of within reason
And to me, the within reason ends when the trainer has to come out.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
but you can't know
it’s going to result in an injury before it happens. If Z isn’t supposed to do anything that could result in getting hurt, he CAN’T PITCH.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Drew, it's about unnecessary chances
You don’t put yourself in a situation where you can get hurt needlessly. What he did yesterday was akin to him snapping off breaking balls without properly warming up.
Actually, it’s kind of like him not drinking enough water and getting cramps.
He is being paid a great deal of money for what his body can do. It’s on him to take better care of it.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
But this is the same situation
as if he was leggin out an infield hit. Would you be saying the same thing if he got hurt doing that? I just dont understand how it is any different from leggin out a bunt and an infield hit. You know he is a competitor and is going to go hard at everything he does. He isnt just getting paid for his body, he is getting paid because he is a good baseball player, mind and body.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
Actually, it’s kind of like him not drinking enough water and getting cramps.
I disagree. There’s a difference between conditioning and what you do in the game.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions
First things first...
Can we agree to stop pretending to know what goes on in players’ heads? Z hurt himself playing baseball. He wasn’t punching coolers or breaking bats. He was trying to avoid an out.
z
lets wait for the mri before we can see what a costly hit this was.too bad because the team was starting to look like last years model.lets hope we dont lose the big guy for to long.cub haters everywhere are loving it.
there is no way to know
if his hammy blows up on the next pitch he throws, and ball he fields. I see nothing wrong with Z recognizing the defensive alignment and trrying to help himself out.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
It's not like he laid down a great bunt.
Nolasco fielded the ball, and had he made a better throw, Z would have been out.
If he was really taking advantage of the defense, he’d have pushed the ball further down the line, beyond the reach of Nolaso and short of Bonifacio. The key to that play, when executed properly, is to leave the defense with no play whatsoever.
Of course, that’s assuming he knew HOW to push the ball into that part of the field. Since he’s not Juan Pierre, I suspect he really doesn’t practice that play enough to pull if off effectively.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
so now
he’s a bad player because it was a bad bunt?
Ok. o.0
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 4, 2009 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions
Clearly not what I said.
He’s a good player attempting to make a difficult play for which he has limited skills to perform.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
You wouldn't call that a great bunt?
IMO anytime you lay down a bunt and are easily safe, it’s a great bunt. The play at first wasn’t even remotely close. They had no play whatsoever.
Since he’s not Juan Pierre, I suspect he really doesn’t practice that play enough to pull if off effectively.
And here you are again making stuff up and passing it off as facts. You, me and everyone else here have no idea what he practices all the time.
Ron Santo should sing TMOTTBG everyday. Period.
I can say this with absolute certainty...........
……….he doesn’t practice bunting as diligently as Juan Pierre, and therefore can have little hope of pulling this play off effectively.
If Carlos Zambrano has the time and inclination to practice NON-SACRIFICIAL bunting, and to the extent that Juan Pierre does, then the entire Cubs coaching staff should be fired.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
You seem to neglect the actual facts: He pulled off the bunt successfully and they didn't even have a play on him.
Nolasco didn’t have a bad throw, he didn’t have time to make a good throw. That bunt was perfectly placed and no pitcher would have had a chance to throw him out. By the time the pitcher got to the ball even a perfect throw would not have gotten him. Your failure to understand this underscores the fact that you are trying to shape the actual events to somehow justify your prejudiced opinions. BTW you know nothing in regard to who practices what so stop using that as some sort of fact to back up your beliefs.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on May 4, 2009 6:24 PM CDT up reply actions
I've seen various exposes............
……….of classic bunters, players like Carew and Wills, and more recently Pierre and Willy Taveras, where they spend hours reading the infield slope, checking the dirt/chalk, and then bunting repeatedly to further enhance their understanding of the field of play. They have to do this because it is an integral part of their offensive strategy, so they drill on this daily.
By logical deduction, plain and simple, Zambrano is unable to devote this much time to this part of the game.
Can you dump the “prejudiced” thing. You’ve been harping on this with zero foundation and it’s well beyond being old.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
please provide your proof
I can say this with absolute certainty……….. ……….he doesn’t practice bunting as diligently as Juan Pierre, and therefore can have little hope of pulling this play off effectively.
if you cannot provide proof, admit it
If Carlos Zambrano has the time and inclination to practice NON-SACRIFICIAL bunting, and to the extent that Juan Pierre does, then the entire Cubs coaching staff should be fired.
practicing a perfect bunt does not change if it is to sacrifice or not.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
See above.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
And after that........
……….pull any MLB stat service on the web and you’ll find that few players in the entire game bunt as frequently or as successfully as Juan Pierre.
Maybe he’s lucky. Or maybe it’s his job. Either way, he’s far more skilled at this aspect of the game than Carlos Zambrano.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
Please tell us what is the magic formula for how much practice a player needs before they are allowed to attempt to bunt for a base hit.
I’m interested to hear this new theory. I imagine it will be quite laughable much like the other statements you’ve already made to justify your dislike of Zambrano’s base hit.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on May 4, 2009 10:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Pierre is a more skilled bunter than Z wow that is deep
Let’s see Joey Gathright , Aaron Miles etc take far more batting practice than Z therefore Z should not attempt to hit. Theriot and Fontenot take far more practice fielding than Dempster there for Dempster should not attempt to field. Dome, Sori, Johnson practice throwing far more than Lilly, therefore LIlly should never attempt to throw. I would guess Greg Maddux took more batting practice than ANY PITCHER ( they said they had to take the bat from him or they were afraid his hands might bleed) which did not mean that he was the best hitting pitcher or that no other pitcher could hit, it just meant he was trying hard to be good at something that would help his team ( and that he enjoyed.)
How bout this Dome does not practice bunting as diligently as Juan Pierre and therefore can have little hope of pulling it off effectively.
In conclusion just because you do not practice something as frequently as someone more skilled than you does not mean you can not perform the task at all. Again this is plain silly.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on May 4, 2009 11:00 PM CDT up reply actions
The comment was initially made..........
…………to point out the disparity between a pitcher and a position player.
You seem to understand the concept by citing the batting practice disparities, but I was challenged with “how do you know?” remarks, which, of course, is indeed plain silly.
And this isn’t about all the other players you mention. It’s to demonstrate that by Z trying to make such a play with very limited experience to execute, he places him in a far smaller window for success vis-a-vis a player like Juan Pierre. And by trying to exceed his abilities, he places himself in jeopardy.
It started as a case in point and dissolved into this. It wasn’t meant to be “deep”, but I must be at the shallow end of the pool because there are many who can’t fathom the concept.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
Your argument is circular and makes no sense. Exactly how
is Z “placing himself in jeopardy”? In jeopardy of what, being thrown out? What are you talking about? If he has less chance of being sucessful, are you arguing that this puts him at more of an injury risk? Splain that to all of us.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on May 5, 2009 12:09 AM CDT up reply actions
Splained...........
……….dozens of times over in this post and others, not only by me, but by different posters too.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
No you didn't. How does the success or the failure of the bunt place him in
jeopardy? Chances are if the bunt is well placed or not, he still is going to run just as hard. You have changed your argument. At first, you were arguing that he shouldn’t attempt to bunt because of the risk of injury. Now you are claiming that because he is not as adept as Jan Pierre, he is placing himself in “jeopardy”. Which one is it?
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on May 5, 2009 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions
Reed Johnson hit..........
…………a come-backer to the mound today, and he really didn’t push himself down the line.
He must not be a baseball player, or perhaps he’s not playing in the National League.
I think he’s becoming Jan Pierre.
Is Jan Pierre Danish or French? Male or female?
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
It is very difficult for anyone to go from a dead stop to a sprint.
Position players are expected to do this daily
Pitchers… what every 5th day…
Z is a large dude, which increases his potential for a pull….especially when he is not conditioned or is used to doing that
I dont think we would be having this conversation if he were a position player.
This is not in his job description…. He does not make $500,000 per start to drag bunts..
He makes 500,000 per start to pitch to the 8th
to do anything other than that is putting the team at risk
Yes, he should not strech singles into doubles, doubles into triples, steal,pinch hit, bunt for a hit
by Reed's Johnson on May 5, 2009 7:42 AM CDT up reply actions
Are you aware of all of the running that pitchers do? Do you realize that they run
every day to keep their legs in shape. When a pitcher has to cover first, he goes from a dead stop on the mound to a full on sprint to first. In ST they practice this day after day. Your description is of an overweight out-of-shape athlete that is taking a risk every time he moves. I think that you minimizing the amount of explosive quick movements a guy like Z has to execute every start.
You can keep reciting the mantra that a pitcher is paid to pitch, but baseball involves doing more than one thing. These are some of the best athletes in the world and they should be sufficiently trained to make sudden movements without pulling muscles. Of course, it’s fool-hardy to take unecessary risks like stretching base hits, but the opinion differs in whether legging out a bunt falls into this catagory. A well positioned bunt down the third-base line with the third baseman back is not the same as trying to stretch a double into a triple. Stretching hits involves sliding and placing other body part in peril. THAT is where the difference of opinion lies.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on May 5, 2009 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions
Zambrano makes $500,000 Per Start to Pitch - Not to hit
He should do NOTHING that jeopardizes priority #1
by Reed's Johnson on May 5, 2009 7:37 AM CDT up reply actions
he is paid to be a baseball player
which includes batting, something he takes pride in.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
“Look, we had no choices,” [Piniella] said. "We’re trying to win baseball games, and he’s a good pinch-hitter. That has nothing to do with him getting hurt… He laid down a good bunt, it was a 2-2 ballgame. I know a lot of people say ‘Why did he bunt?’ Well, if he had hit a ball off the wall and hurt it trying to go into second with a double, (would they say) he should’t have hit a double?
“I don’t get the reasoning.”
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 5, 2009 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions
your entire argument is based on bias not proof
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
plus you are challanged with "how do you know"
since you stated you knew
and then your answer was 100% bias, without proof, followed with a statement about how being asked how you know is silly.
if being asked is silly, then dont say you know.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
he is wrong,
since pitchers actually practice bunting more than position players.
plus his entire argument is based on bias not proof.
While pitching in high school, I actually spent about three times more working on bunting than the position hitters did. my coach told me that if there is a hole in the infield, place the ball there. it was not strictly to sacrifice, but to “help myself” i.e. if I can get on, its a bonus and go with it.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
No, I am not wrong.
With all due respect you your high school playing days, the game at the MLB level is far more specialized. There’s a chance you were also the starting SS on your high school team, but these things simply don’t happen at the highest levels of baseball.
Please tell me you understand this distinction.
And because of this, it is veritable fact that some players like Pierre and Taveras spend more time practicing their bunting than any other players in the dugout. THIS IS NOT A SECRET! IT’S THEIR LIVING!
But since you are not likely to believe me, here’s some more “proof”:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=rogers_phil&id=1964657
Is this enough “proof”, Doubting Tim?
Bias = prejudice; you and Taco Pie have something for this angle, the complete hogwash that it is.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
what?
your article proves nothing other than Pierre is a good bunter.
No one disputes this.
Zambrano practices bunts plenty. He executed the play and got on base.
>>Zambrano, who felt it pull three steps from the first base bag, referred to it as “my flat tire.” He also doesn’t understand why anyone would consider it a risk to let him pinch-hit when he doesn’t start. He said he’s an all-around player, and will do anything he can to help his team win.
“This is the National League,” he said. “In the National League, you have to be athletic and have to be able to do everything… Pinch-hitting had nothing to do with this.”<<
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 5, 2009 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions
Good thing you can cut/paste........
……….otherwise your fingers would be tired from typing the SAME OLD THING again and again and again.
But I’m not surprised that you failed to read this entire thread, which, if you would have bothered to do so, might take you to a different (and unique) understanding of the issue being discussed.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
I read the thread
the fact that one player practices bunts more than another player does not mean that the second player is incapable of bunting.
That A=B does not mean that C cannot also = B.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 5, 2009 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions
Alice............
………….Wonderland is calling you………..
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
exactly
pitchers take batting practice as well.
and tville……is MLB more specialized, yes, but it also is still the same game (hit the ball, catch the ball,, throw the ball). and I guess Gathright should be practicing more as well, since he is fast and cannot hit (does this make him a pitcher?)
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
TIme to move on.
When a discussion starts one direction, but is then guided down various others, it’s pointless to continue.
I’ve got to head out to attend today’s game anyway. I’ll be gone so you guys will have to play with yourselves.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
Lou, Zambrano
and MANY others thru the history of baseball will say you are wrong. You are stating opinions and have used ONE isolated link, instaed of the numerous where Lou, Zambrano (and the one i used with Torre Hampton and Spahn) where hitting by a pitcher IS part of the Nationla League game.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
so you are 100% sure
with proof, not “i have seen” bias?
you have proof of what they do in the cages when you are not in the stadium, or when they are inside the clubhouse, etc?
Your entire “proof” cannot be proven so far.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Proved?
Must be some kinda Iowa proof, which isn’t nearly the worth as Kentucky proof.
Nothing’s been proven by “your” side, except an incredible ability to twist one story into another, especially when the discussion starts to turn against you.
By the way, do you have an opinion or any insightful information on anything, or do you just send these weak-assed, coat-tail-esque replies? Honestly, why do you bother?
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
Actually Drew
proved his point when Lou said the same thing we have been saying. If you have a problem with that take it up with Lou.
I'll meet with him............
………..after I’m finished with Zambrano.
Somebody just make the arrangements. I’ll be there.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
By the way.............
………..I was “gone” so I could attend today’s game.
Unique experience, perhaps?
I meant for you, of course.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
Classy!
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 6, 2009 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Can you support that with facts?
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
I offered up...........
……….more than this.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
I absolutely love the use we have been getting out of Z lately.
Even with the high salary he is getting paid, we are probably getting more than our money’s worth. I mean, I can tell that opposing pitchers are pissed when they have to face Z on one of his off days as PH. I love having that card to play. Sure we want to be careful with him, but he is horse. He has done quite a bit for this team besides pitch, and the results haven’t been disastrous. He is a tough guy, and we all know that his mental state also controls his effectiveness as a pitcher. As I see it, the more he plays the better he feels = good mental state = effective pitching. I say they offer to give him the playing time he wants as long as he agrees to follow a diet that helps him avoid getting cramps etc., i.e banana diet. :)
Agreed
Z is a good pinch hitter and why should Lou be limited because Z is a pitcher. Harden running for Z is another good example. If Lou has a competent guy on his bench who will not be used for any other reason, than why should he waste a position player that could be used on a double switch later.
I realize that there is an injury risk here and that many managers would frown on using pitchers as pinch hitters and runners (although TLR did it during the St Louis series when there was a sac bunt situation).
Why would you not make use of the 4 guys who are not useful otherwise when they have useful skills that they can contribute?
Oriole by nurture. Cub by marriage.
lets move to the AL Central
that way Z, Harden, Lilly or anybody dont get hurt while running or at the plate, and also so we dont have to forefit a out with every sac bunt a pitcher is required to do.
this post
is entirely useless. Z executed a smart play given the situation and happened to tweak his hammy in the process—something that can happen at any time to any athlete. he was trying to help his team get on the board, which he did. let’s not criticize Z for playing smart baseball and executing a bunt properly, yes he tweaked his hamstring but hindsight is 20/20, that hamstring pull could happen to anyone so it’s useless to sit here post-factum and try to ascribe some deeper problem to it. I also don’t understand why you describe Zambrano’s effort as “cute”. I appreciate the passion and sense of purpose that Z brings to the mound and the plate, he does all he can to get the team a W.
I agree. I think this conversation is ridiculous.
Like any freak accident, it’s easy to say what you should or shouldn’t have done differently once it happened. Everyone is upset that he’s hurt. What difference does it make how? It could have been from spending too much time on the internet. Remember that one? Maybe some of us should get off right now before we get hurt. So instead of overanalyzing this, let’s just hope he’s not out too long and that he comes back soon so he can continue to play his heart out for us. BTW-I typically don’t care for Z’s antics(breaking bats over his knee, etc.)but I didn’t think of this as one of those instances at all. He’s a professional athlete and I’m sure he thought he could hustle it out to first base without getting hurt. It’s not like he knew he’d get hurt and did it anyway. I’d like to applaud his effort. It’s good to see a player give 100% like that.
Worf: your premise is illogical, it seems to me.
You seem to argue throughout this thread that because Z got injured he was wrong. Yet Z has hustled full speed down the first base line many, many times this year (and throughout his career) without sustaining an injury. Your “50 out of 100 times” comment as well as accusing him of being out of shape is just silly.
Is this a cry for attention? I suggest a shocking pink shirt and plaid pants would get you just as much attention, if not more. Maybe you can add Dempster’s sport coat to this outfit. Now THAT is a man who will get plenty of attention.
But the result (injury) does not justify the second-guessing. Move on.
"If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong." - a well known stock market guru
The more important issue is to make sure Zambrano doesn’t alter his pitching delivery, which in-turn can lead to shoulder problems. Cubs fans may remember 1985 when incumbant Cy Young award winner Rick Sutcliffe tore his hamstring early that season, then returned too soon and injured his shoulder due to an altered pitching motion. Sutcliffe eventually had a few more productive years for the Cubs after that, but the big right hander was never the power pitcher he was before the injury. The Cubs will do everything they can to protect their ace from repeating that type of history
bruce levine
Nice qoute. You copied it perfectly. Thank you for citing the obvious.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on May 5, 2009 12:11 AM CDT up reply actions
I would like to point people to this article
I found it in the post game thread posted by Schwa – Lou’s words on Z’s hustle.
So everyone against Z’s bunt, you now have Lou against you too.
“This is the National League,” he said. “In the National League, you have to be athletic and have to be able to do everything… Pinch-hitting had nothing to do with this.”
I would like to hear tville or Reed’s Johnson response to Lou.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
Lou is wrong, and in Z's case, I think he would not tell the media his true feelings
I am willing to bet if you asked someone who really knew what the true feelings are in the clubhouse, they aren’t happy with trading zambrano for scales
Way to defend your argument
So you know more than the manager of the Cubs? Why arent you up there making big bucks managing? Also where did it say that the “clubhouse” is happy that they are trading Z for Scales? Who would ever be happy about that?
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
Then why play for that exchange?
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
so now
you know more than Lou Piniella and you accuse Zambrano of lying?
wow. Just wow. Go back to Tampa.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 5, 2009 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions
you sure know how to stir the pot
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
lol!
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 5, 2009 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions
you sure know how to stir the pot
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
not you Reed
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
I mean seriously… I can’t believe that there is a flock of you who think Zambrano has more obligations to this team other than to make his 35 starts…
Anything he does that jeorpardizes that (drag bunting, stretching out base hits, stealing,breaking bats over knees, not drinking enough water, playing on the interenet too much) is taking away from what we pay him for!
$500,000 Per Start!!! To Pitch – NOT TO BUNT, OR HIT HOME RUNS, OR PINCH HIT!
he is paid to play baseball
which included hitting in the NL. it is not rocket science
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Lou and Z
both disagree with you.
Does your “high level experience” trump theirs? Really? Lou has several WS rings. Do you?
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 5, 2009 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions
don't let your anxiety that you couldnt play past tball get to you
by Reed's Johnson on May 5, 2009 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions
lol
I loved playing baseball and I love playing it today, and your continued insistence that you know more because you played in college and no one else knows anything unless they did as well… really it is rather sad.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 5, 2009 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions
listen, you are the one who keeps bringing it up - i dropped it too days ago
by Reed's Johnson on May 5, 2009 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions
Funny thing is, when I called 20 or so people asked their take on this… guess what they thought
what do they have in common…. hmmm
my point originally is that I look at the game very differently that you… and you want to take it and stick it in every other post you make attacking me
by Reed's Johnson on May 5, 2009 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions
are any of those 20 people
called Lou Piniella?
Then who cares what they think?
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 5, 2009 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions
well up to this point... Lou has won us how many playoff games?
by Reed's Johnson on May 5, 2009 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions
utterly
and completely irrelevant.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 5, 2009 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Just as many as Ernie Banks.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 5, 2009 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions
maybe we would have won last October
if Z bunted for a hit in each game
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Now you're on to something.
He didn’t pitch especially well in his lone start last October, so had he found some boneheaded way to remove himself from play (a la the stupid bunt), another arm might have performed better.
Where were you months ago? Coulda led the Cubs to the title……….
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
Did you even watch Z's playoff start in 08?
The errors made behind him blew the game. He actually pitched very well. He was also the only starting pitcher that pitched well in 07. You seem to have a very different set of rules for judging Z’s performance. I wonder why you have such a problem with this guy? He’s been the Cubs best pitcher over the last 6 seasons and you can do nothing but take shots at the guy. Most of the shots aren’t even based on actual performance but whatever bias you have against him. I would not act as if I know or care what motivates that bias.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on May 6, 2009 11:47 PM CDT up reply actions
of course zambrano disagree’s – he is the $91 million dollar headcase we are discussing
by Reed's Johnson on May 5, 2009 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions
That is 100% not accurate – he is paid to pitch… and if you want to sacrifice one start for him drag bunting, or pinch hitting, you have lots your focus…
He got $91 because he can pitch… not ONE dollar of that was because he can hit
got that info
from Jim Hendry, did you?
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 5, 2009 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions
stir some more dood
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
in your opinion
and unless you’re willing to say that you’re smarter than Lou, more truthful than Z, and have a direct line to Jim Hendry, you have NO OTHER support for your statement.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 5, 2009 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions
You have lost your mind if you think that Zambrano got $1 from his $91 mil becuase he can hit
by Reed's Johnson on May 5, 2009 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions
he's a ballplayer
part of his contract incentives have included getting hitting awards.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 5, 2009 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions
again, with the denigration.
Do you deny that Carlos Zambrano has incentives in his contract to hit well?
Really?
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 5, 2009 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions
apparently part of it
is for hitting.
Oriole by nurture. Cub by marriage.
+1
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I do believe the Silver Slugger Award
gets him a bonus
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
he is paid to be a baseball player
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Should pitchers also avoid fielding ?
I mean it pitching is there ONLY job , then they should just leave fielding to others. Pitchers should not waste time exerting themselves fielding or practice fielding as it would distract from pitching.
PS You might want to check with the Tigers if pitchers inability to FIELD can cost you a World Series. Pitchers
are players and they need to to field and hit to the best of their abilities and practice doing it.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
So bad fielding equals........
………….potential for injury equals no practice equals lost World Series?
If this were the point of the story, I’d go on, but it’s so not the issue that there’s no reason to comment further.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
Moot point. They don't try to catch infield flies because they have to negotiate the mound and
usually the fielders are coming in to make a play in the proximity of the pitcher. It’s a much easier play for any player other than the pitcher who is standing in the middle of the field. The fielders have much more experience fielding pop-ups than the pitcher. It’s a matter of who is best at making the play.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on May 5, 2009 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions
and infield popups
are likely to be behind the pitcher. Coming off the mound while going backwards doesn’t make any sense, not just from a safety standpoint, but from a defense standpoint.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 5, 2009 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions
Guys - enjoy the DL - pray it is only 2-3 starts and he comes back healthy
you wont change our minds and we wont change yours
Quit throwing the word "pray" around so cavalierly
I save my prayers for important things, thank you. Not for how many starts Z, or any other baseball player, will make.
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 5, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions
pray for him to learn how it works?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Ok this is stupid now
1. Reed’s Johnson, learn how to use reply properly, its hard to follow your comments.
2. You tville and worf are the only people I see still on the side against Z’s decision.
3. The last 100+ comments on this have been the same repeated arguments.
4. We have now provided you with a quote from the Cubs manager saying
"This is the National League," he said. "In the National League, you have to be athletic and have to be able to do everything… Pinch-hitting had nothing to do with this."I dont know how you can say you are equivocally right at this point.
5. No side of this argument is going to change their mind.
I’m done.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
I might change my mind...
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 5, 2009 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions
SWL
can we trade minds?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I hit reply under the comment I want to respond too… What am I doing wrong?
So…. Since we have now decided that Lou Pinella is the end all be all and what ever he says is the rule of the land and must be taken for as the right opinon or fact…
I hope to NEVER see one of you question a thing he says or does from this point forward
by Reed's Johnson on May 5, 2009 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions
lol
that’s not the point, and you know it. The point is, Lou expects his pitchers to hit and run.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 5, 2009 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions
You said it yourself, the only opinion that matters is Lou’s… so dont you dare question him… he won a world series in 1990
by Reed's Johnson on May 5, 2009 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions
except
you know, I didn’t.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 5, 2009 10:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Ever seen "Twelve Angry Men"?
Check it out. Enlightening, especially for someone who posts comments like these.
By the way, your new name, jkobus, is Lee J. Cobb, otherwise known as “#3”. You can recruit Ed Begley, otherwise known as Drew, to be your right hand man. Sorry, no chicks in this flick, so Sue369 will have to sit this one out, but it’s not like she’d have an opinion anyway.
Worf and I will arm wrestle to accept the part played by Hank Fonda. Loser becomes first alternate, played by Joseph Sweeney. Actually, I suspect I’m older than Worf, so I’ll just accept the Sweeney role, since he was a blue-hair anyway, and let Worf play the Fonda lead.
I really wish I had the time to come around here more often and liven up the joint. Seems the borg is getting stale.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
buh-bye now
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 6, 2009 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions
I hate to break it to you, but neither you nor Worf fit into the Fonda role in this one, buddy. This
discussion is about opinion, not right or wrong. There is no right or wrong answer here. Some of us believe that a pitcher can lay down a bunt for a hit without placing himself in injury jeopardy, you and Worf feel that a pitcher should only pitch. That’s the crux of it. You could get a thousand opinions on either side and they all could passionately plead their case. As I stated before, there is no right or wrong here. Get over it. It’s time to move on.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on May 6, 2009 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Good point.
My reference to “12” was to demonstrate that, perhaps, thoughts in the minds of some COULD be changed as was the case in the movie. And if we were in a jury room, openly fleshing out the various thoughts and ideas, I think perspectives could be changed, or at a bare minimum, enlightened.
Anyway, I agree. Case closed.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
It was a long discussion, but a good one. I think just about everyone chimed in
on this one. That’s one of the good things about this blog, we can passionately argue our case and then move on to something else without too many bruises. I admire your passion about your stance. If you believe strongly about something, stick to it and support your argument. You gave as well as you took.
By the way, great reference to “12”. It has long been one of my favorites with a great cast. It was one of Sidney Lumet’s first movies and he really hit a long one right out of the box.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on May 6, 2009 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions
+1
to both of you. Twas fun but I for one am glad its over.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
It's not over until we say it's over! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on May 6, 2009 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions
He's pretty good at it.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on May 5, 2009 9:36 PM CDT up reply actions
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