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Around SBN: Jerry Sandusky's Wife Tries To Run A Reporter Over

Theriot baserunning

First post here, I really enjoy the site!

In full disclosure, I'm an LSU grad, a friend of the Theriot family, and I was sitting behind the LSU dugout when Ryan scored the winning run of the 2000 CWS in Omaha, so I don't claim to be without bias.

That said, with all the hoopla over Theriot's sudden power surge, I felt the need to also point out that he stole his 6th base Monday night, out of 8 attempts.  6 SBs is good for 5th in the NL.  Now I realize he had a down year in '08 stealing bases, swiping 22 of 35.  However, everyone seems to forget that he was 13 of 15 in '06, and 28 of 32 in '07.  Those numbers aren't good, they are spectacular.  Even with the poor numbers from '08, Ryan is now 69 for 90 total, which is 76.6%.  That's a very strong SB%.

I have read about a million posts on this board and others calling for Ryan to stop running, calling him an offensive liability, a terrible baserunner, a talentless bonehead, and much worse.  This is shocking, especially for a player that busts his butt every day and counts a whopping 500K towards the payroll. 

This cajun is VERY proud of both of our LSU boys (Fontenot hit a HR off me in high school that may not have come down yet), and I just wanted to offer a quick post representing the NOLA/BR Cubs fan contingent.

GO CUBS!  Let's go for 5 in a row!

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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is so refreshing to see a positive post like this. For which I thank you. I have never understood the rap that Theriot has gotten. I’ll take him on my team anytime.

"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"

by wild bill on May 5, 2009 6:43 AM CDT reply actions  

Agreed

I get jumped by the “know-it-alls” everytime i say anything good about Theriot.

http://irudey.mybrute.com/
Fun little Time waster!

by Rudey on May 6, 2009 1:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

Same here

Every positive Theriot post prompts a “we’ve beaten this horse to death” criticism, sometimes with a gif to match.

Every negative “he sucks” “costing us runs with his [insert defense or baserunning]” or “we need a real SS” gets at most indifference or more often self-congratulatory pats on the bat from like minded know it alls. Bravo, your biases are welcome here as far as I’m concerned. A necessary counterbalance.

by Orval Overall on May 6, 2009 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

That was for wild bill.

I was just thinking the same thing. It’s especailly refreshing because it’s not just about the home runs.

by katie casey on May 5, 2009 6:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Tired of the Theriot bashing

Pretty much from day 1, people have slammed this guy. Sure, his range and arm from short aren’t great, but his OBP, AVG, and attitude more than make up for his deficiences. On a team with a first baseman hitting a hair over .200 and a free-agent signing hitting under .200, he is the least of the problems. Lou doesn’t seem to have the same ill will towards him as many posters here.

I have nothing funny or creative to write.

by Canadian Cubs Fan on May 5, 2009 6:57 AM CDT reply actions  

And in the end...
Lou doesn’t seem to have the same ill will towards him as many posters here.

That’s all that matters.

by CubFan81 on May 5, 2009 7:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

Oh Boy.....

Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team

by carmen_fanzone on May 5, 2009 7:07 AM CDT reply actions  

or not

"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella

by El Borto on May 5, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Welcome!

Really enjoyed your post. I too am a Theriot fan on here (we’re in minorities). It’s early in this post but I fully expect by tonight to see mostly bashing done on here even if he’s truly been a difference maker in 3 games this week.

Oh and the by the way, you’re not going to be making many friends here :)

by ak123 on May 5, 2009 7:08 AM CDT reply actions  

I would take The Riot anyday ...

yeah, i know he does not have great range at SS … ok maybe he’s not really even that great overall in the field … but he plays hard and seems to actually care about giving his all and helping his team win games … last year the guy was a huge spark plug for us, wrapping nearly 200 hits !! When other players were hurt or took days off, Theriot stepped up. Without him, who knows how last season goes … and as he’s shown the last couple days with his bat, he’s definitely an asset to this year’s team as well.

"If loving Peyton Manning is wrong, I don't wanna be right"

by ClarkFan44 on May 5, 2009 7:12 AM CDT reply actions  

All that - and his range is fine, too.

Theriot is pretty well established as a slightly-above-average SS in terms of range.

I think that Theriot’s bashers wish he looked “smoother” in the field, or that he didn’t have to look like he was giving such a gigantic effort to make his throws - and lose focus on the fact that he’s getting it done, and making his throws.

Somewhat above average with the bat, at least average with the glove, and a fantastic value.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on May 5, 2009 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

My problem when I watched Theriot in the field last year

was that his range looked anemic to me. That was the biggest issue. I didn’t think he look too sloppy at all. I thought he wasn’t getting to a ton of balls he should have gotten to. UZR suggested that my eyes were either not seeing things rightly or that I simply saw him in his bad games. The double-clutch got made fun of a lot; but the throws in the dirt to 1B show that his arm strength is stretched at SS. While UZR showed Theriot to be almost exactly average last year, I don’t know that we should consider him “pretty well established” as above-average. He’s doing well this year, though, and at this point criticizing Theriot is mostly going to be about not liking him personally (for which people may have good reason).

Derrek Lee is good.

by DGU on May 5, 2009 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

Right now, Theriot is playing the best baseball of his major league career.

If he can keep this up — and no, he doesn’t have to hit homers every day, either — he’ll be a real asset to this team. Keep up the good work.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on May 5, 2009 7:28 AM CDT reply actions  

+1

Derrek Lee is good.

by DGU on May 5, 2009 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

amen.

"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella

by drewishdrewid on May 5, 2009 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

Theriot has been a real asset to this team for a couple years

people get to fixated on home runs some times. he was 7th in the league in hitting last year, and only made 14 errors. His K/BB splits are very good, and he is a max effort type player. He reminds me alot of David Eckstein when he was with the Angels.

It is good to see him pull the ball more, instead of almost everything going to the right side. It seems like teams started pitching him in more because he was hitting everything the other way, and someone convinced him to start turning on the ball more

by wfree0104 on May 5, 2009 7:46 AM CDT reply actions  

and...

Theriot cost us near nothing in terms of baseball dollars.

I didn't get the players I wanted in the offseason!! Hopefully I get what I want in the Regular Season---The World Series Trophy!! Go Cubbies!!

by cubsluver22 on May 5, 2009 7:53 AM CDT reply actions  

I'm a Theriot critic...

But if he can sprinkle in more XBH’s, which he has struggled to do in the past, then he becomes a much more valuable player. I still think he should be our 2B of the future, where his lack of arm strength won’t hurt us quite as much.

Free Ronny Cedeno

by Kansas25 on May 5, 2009 8:09 AM CDT reply actions  

+1000000000000000000000000000

Theriot is going to make an outstanding 2B. As a shortstop………overall he’s a nice player, defensive liabilities aside………put him at 2B where he belongs and he’s truly an asset

by plenz on May 5, 2009 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

He's an above-average defensive shortstop.

I don’t know why everyone is so convinced he’s a defensive liability. His UZR has been slightly above average every year he’s been a SS – his range is fine.

If I had to speculate, I’d assume that some fans just don’t like the asthetics of the Eckstein-style “oh-my-I-have-to-give-this-everything-I’ve-got” throws from SS on routine putouts. But it gets the job done, doesn’t it?

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on May 5, 2009 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

Average to slightly above-average...

at an important defensive position. Why is it offensive to suggest he’d become a better defender at 2B?

“Everyone is so convinced he’s a defensive liability.” Quite the hyperbole.

Free Ronny Cedeno

by Kansas25 on May 5, 2009 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Great post

…and shockingly lucid from an LSU guy.

I’ve always loved Theriot. He plays clean, with heart and doesn’t mouth off every time a microphone is in his face. I’ll take those guys on the Cubs anytime.

"I'm just giving the fireworks guy time to re-load".
~ Former Pitching Coach Billy Connors

by Bears31765 on May 5, 2009 8:18 AM CDT reply actions  

What I don't understand...

is how his 2008 baserunning was so bad after excellent 2006 & 2007 numbers. I’d love to hear some possible theories on why this happened.

by John916 on May 5, 2009 8:50 AM CDT reply actions  

4 reasons

1) It’s still early in the season
2) He tried stealing third to no success last year.
3) There were a bunch of bad calls against him being out when the tape clearly showed he was safe (4 or 5 times I recall).
4) He probably worked in the off season and in spring training on how to do get better jumps without it being obvious.

by ak123 on May 5, 2009 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

The first step seems to be Theriot's main flaw

Both in the field and on the basepaths. If he could fix that, I think he’d be a lot better than he is.

Also, last year it looked like he wasn’t getting a very good lead off first. That, along with a poor start, lead to a lot of those outs.

by dr stabbingworth on May 6, 2009 8:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

I like Theriot,

but it’s not like you can fault fans for being upset with his baserunning after last season. You said it yourself, he was only 22 for 35 last year.
All that said, he has become an asset offensively at a position where most teams are happy with just solid glove-work. It’s great to see how he improved since joining the Cubs a few years back. In his first full year, he was not very good. Sure, he stole 28 bases, but that was the only thing he did well. In 2008, you could see him learning on the job, taking more pitches and not forcing the issue at the plate, taking what he got and adjusting on the fly. I doubt the power he has displayed the last few days is here to stay, but if it is, we got ourselves the best SS in the division(He already may be the division’s best, but a bit more power would clinch it).

by dakoose on May 5, 2009 9:04 AM CDT reply actions  

J.J. Hardy seems to always start the season slow.

I very much doubt Theriot ends the season better than Hardy.

Derrek Lee is good.

by DGU on May 5, 2009 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Why?

This is a typical case of overvaluing other teams talent while devaluing your own. Hardy is serviceable, but not great.

I have nothing funny or creative to write.

by Canadian Cubs Fan on May 6, 2009 6:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Um, I'd say Hardy is better than "serviceable."

He’s got pop to spare, good range and a strong arm. He’s closing in on 4,000 innings of major league shorstop and his UZR numbers are outstanding.

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by daver on May 6, 2009 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

agreed

you’d have to be insane to take theriot over hardy. that doesn’t mean theriot is bad but hardy is superior both offensively and defensively and is 3 years younger

by uwbadger on May 6, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hardy is one of the best 15 players in the NL

His WARs the pas 2 years have been 4.5 and 4.9 respectively. His career UZR/150 at short is 11.9 in nearly 4000 innings.

St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008

by vivaelpujols on May 6, 2009 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not to mention he's being asked to play SS...

…when really he’s a second baseman. It’s not his fault that the Cubs can’t find a “true” SS, but he’s gotten the job done.

"Pounding sand since 1982...."

by cubswynn on May 5, 2009 9:34 AM CDT reply actions  

I think this is overlooked far too often.

He’s playing out of position without complaint, and according to his UZR ratings he’s actually doing a pretty good job so far this year (and a marginal to serviceable job in the past couple years).

by redward on May 5, 2009 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Why is he out of position?

He was a college shortstop, a minor league shortstop, and has been a major league shortstop for something like 95% of the innings he’s ever played, and he’s playing at an above-average level defensively.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on May 5, 2009 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

Because he's not a MAJOR LEAGUE shortstop.

College and minor league ball are a completely different story.

"Pounding sand since 1982...."

by cubswynn on May 5, 2009 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think he's earned the right...

…to be called a major league shortstop. Not saying he’s one of the best in the game, but he’s logged enough innings at the major league level not to be dismissed as unable to play the position adequately.

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by daver on May 5, 2009 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

Right.

He definitely gets the job done at SS, but he’s much better suited for second base.

I think that’s a pretty objective statement.

"Pounding sand since 1982...."

by cubswynn on May 5, 2009 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes

This is what I was trying to say.

by redward on May 5, 2009 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

How is that in any way objective?

It’s your subjective opinion.

He may turn out to be a better 2B than a SS, but there’s no way you can objectively know that, because he’s never played more than 39 games at the position in a season.

What we do know is that, based upon any metric, Theriot is a slightly-better-than-average MLB shortstop.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on May 5, 2009 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

It is objective

According to the defensive spectrum, Theriot will be better than second than at short. That is same for most major league shortstops.

St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008

by vivaelpujols on May 6, 2009 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, to my naked eye...

…he appears to be more of a natural second baseman. But, and I’ve said this before, I honestly think Ryan Theriot is an overachiever. For right now at least, I’m more concerned with his overuse at shortstop than his actual play.

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by daver on May 6, 2009 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

He's played 284 games at SS in the MAJOR LEAGUES.

He has been average-to-above-average in all respects during that time.

So far this year, he’s way above average defensively, but it’s reasonable to expect that to regress back to “league average”. But please note, that “league” is MLB.

He is, by any standard, a MLB shortstop.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on May 5, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

great post, welcome aboard

and I am hoping the Riot Train keeps on going. He is really playing above expectations, and I for one am estatic!

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on May 5, 2009 10:13 AM CDT reply actions  

Good post!

I agree with you 100%. I’ve never understand the disdain for Theriot. Sure, he has his limitations, but other than Albert Pujols, what player doesn’t? Theriot led the team last year in hitting (AVG and OBP), yet people on this site continue to call for his head.

Ryan Theriot is a very good baseball player, and I’m glad, and have been glad, that he’s our SS.

by kanderber on May 5, 2009 12:14 PM CDT reply actions  

Theriot disdain

I haven’t read any one calling for his head recently; last year, I think a lot of the disdain came from the over-hyping of Theriot. The capstone, for me, of the Theriot over-hyping was when Lou Piniella called the All-Star game manager trying to get Theriot on the All-Star squad. Ryan Theriot had no business beating out Jimmy Rollins, Jose Reyes, or Hanley Ramirez, let alone several other lesser-known NL SSs who were outplaying him at the time and/or ended the season with better numbers. Meanwhile, Mark DeRosa was putting forward a herculean effort for the club and was probably having the only year in his career where he would be in consideration for the All-Star honor. And he actually had a case to be made to be a better bench option than Dan Uggla, especially given his flexibility. But Lou said nothing for DeRosa. It was shameful.

Derrek Lee is good.

by DGU on May 5, 2009 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's a ridiculous reason.

First off, Theriot was much better than Rollins in the 1st half last year. So, yes, he did deserve a spot more than him. Secondly, Theriot hit .320 with a .394 OBP in the first half… very good numbers. Did he deserve a spot over Ramirez or Reyes? Probably not. But it wasn’t crazy at all for Lou to campaign for him.

And for all you know, DeRosa could have told Lou to not make any calls on his behalf as he’d prefer to spend the few days with his family — as so many players do.

Sorry, but what you just said is a very stupid reason to dislike Ryan Theriot.

by kanderber on May 5, 2009 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Mind what I've said here.

I’m talking about why I remember posting things critical of Theriot, as a counter-balance to the posts that talked as if, for example, as you said, he was better than Rollins. In the first half of 2008
Rollins hit .274/.340/.438 with 24 SB and 0 CS.
Theriot hit .320/.394/.369 with 15 SB and 9 CS.
And Rollins was a signficantly better SS defensively.

So, of course, what I wrote would be a “stupid reason” to dislike Theriot personally; I know nothing about him personally. But the over-hyping, which continues to hold sway, was a reason to dislike the Legend of Ryan Theriot.

As for DeRosa, I remember reading something about him hoping to make it; I went back and checked his blog where he sounded a little disappointed not to make it.

Derrek Lee is good.

by DGU on May 5, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Where's the overhype though?

Cubs fans in general, at least on here and on NSBB, seem to severely under hype him. I’ve see FAR more “Theriot sucks” type of posts than “Theriot is the greatest.”

by kanderber on May 5, 2009 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think saying Theriot was better than Rollins was an example of over-hype.

You’re right that you could read plenty of “Theriot sucks” stuff, even when it wasn’t always appropriate. But there were always people arguing the other side of that, and I think I even remember one thread arguing that Theriot was the second coming of Ryne Sandberg.

I’m not speaking for all the people who post against Theriot. They can give their own explanations if they want. I’m just explaining what annoyed me last year. If you buy into the way they look at things at Beyond the Box Score, Theriot was an over-all average SS who was worth as much to us as Cesar Izturis was to the Cardinals. There are a lot of people, I’d be willing to bet, who think calling Theriot average or = to Izturis was a slam against him. To me, that’s overhype.

Derrek Lee is good.

by DGU on May 5, 2009 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm sorry, I meant Tejada not Rollins.

Although Rollins was BARELY better than Theriot (110 OPS+ vs. 109 OPS+) offensively, which is what really matters when it comes to All Star selections.

I looked at all of the guys’ splits that you mentioned, and got the two confused. My bad.

by kanderber on May 5, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh ok.

I’m not sure what ends up mattering with All-Star selection. There are plenty of times I’m tempted to vote for a guy who hasn’t performed well that year but still seems like a “star.”

As for Riot and Rollins, even though their bats were comparable last year in the first half, Rollins had stolen 24 bases without being caught once and his defense is very nice. I don’t see the two players as being in the same league. And, that’s not a slam on Theriot for me; the NL is just stocked with excellent SSs right now.

Derrek Lee is good.

by DGU on May 5, 2009 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Don't forget steals

Linear weights says the average value of a steal is .195 runs and the “value” of a caught stealing is -.456 runs. Last year, Rollins stole 47 bases and was caught 3 times, so he was worth approximately 8 runs on the base paths last year. Theriot, on the other hand, stole 22 bases and was caught stealing 13 times. So Theriot was worth about – 2 runs on the base paths last year. 10 runs is a big deal. It is about the difference between Ryan Howard last year and a league average player.

St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008

by vivaelpujols on May 6, 2009 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think, kanderber,

that as this post has grown, the overhype has reared its head, now, several times. Anyway, I don’t see the Theriot debates cooling down unless he takes his game to another level – which would be nice for all of us. So, go, Theriot, go!

Derrek Lee is good.

by DGU on May 7, 2009 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rumor

It was a rumor overblown last year that Lou wanted Theriot on the All Star Team and to be honest had the Cubs not already gotten so many votes, he probably would have made it. I will not be surprised if Theriot is on the team this year.

As for Theriot bashing posts…we had one about 10 days ago.

by ak123 on May 5, 2009 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

LOL

I provided a link. You might check it.

Derrek Lee is good.

by DGU on May 5, 2009 5:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

I read it

And I remembered reading it back then. Lou suggested and other writers and people on here made it out that he was pushing for him more than anyone else.

Whatever, that was last year anyways.

by ak123 on May 5, 2009 5:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

but hadn't

Utley, Uggla, Brandon Phillips all had better seasons than Derosa at that point? (I at least recall Utley and Uggla having monster first halfs, and probably Phillips too.) I guess I can’t fault Lou for lobbying on Theriot’s behalf at that point considering the relative stats

by PrincetonCubs on May 7, 2009 1:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

everyone should start appreciating theriot

The guy plays hard everyday, and gives it everything he has. He might not have the most impressive physical tools but he makes up for it with his hard work, as shown by his ability to go from a farmhand who had to fight for a spot on the roster to the starter a few seasons ago. A few weeks ago when we were in a skid people were writing posts ragging on theriot, of all people. Say what you want about his abilities, but the guy is going out hit over .300, steal bases, energize the clubhouse, and he knows how to move runners over. He plays through pain and will be in the lineup everyday as long as Lou pencils in his name. The fact that it took him hitting three home runs in four games for some people to start to appreciate him is kind of sad, because he’s been a very reliable player for a few years now.

by JTcubbies on May 6, 2009 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

Great Post

I appointed myself the official Therio/HoffPower athletic supporter on BCB and I approve this post :-)

Seriously though you put it very well- they guy hustles and plays the game well. Alot of people say scrappy with derision but I think it is important to a team to have someone who can pick them up- George Brett was scrappy too and when a guy hustles out a grounder- or takes an extra base on an error because he was hustling it picks everyone up.

and for all the stat heads: they are called “intangibles” for a reason!

Definitive Answers to Impossible Questions What baseball team did A. Lincoln support?

by Andre Fonseca on May 5, 2009 12:16 PM CDT reply actions  

Zinger!!!
George Brett wasn’t scrappy, he was fucking awesome, and Ryan Theriot, while a nice little player. isn’t worthy to carry the pants that Brett shit himself in.

"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett

by The Ryno and I Know on May 6, 2009 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

I concur

I was going to post something similar, yet not as extensive. If Brett wasn’t one of the greatest hitters of all time, do you think anybody would remember Brett’s scrapiness? Please.

by McRipper on May 6, 2009 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree completely about Brett, one of the greatest players ever.

Next time, try posting without profanity.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on May 6, 2009 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not saying Theriot is better than Brett

George Brett was awesome- but I didn’t meant to compare Theriot’s nascent career numbers to Brett’s remarkable 1st ballot HOF career.

What I am saying is part of what made Brett awesome was that he pushed hard- he never stole many bases, he wasn’t remarkably fast, didn’t have exceptional RZR KRZR whatever defensive ‘stat’ but he picked his team up with hustle plays.

I’m not trying to say Theriot is Brett or whatever- I am just saying that having a guy on your team- baseball or otherwise who plays hard is something that doesn’t show up in the line, but you better believe it matters in the dugout.

Definitive Answers to Impossible Questions What baseball team did A. Lincoln support?

by Andre Fonseca on May 8, 2009 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

RZR wasn't around when Brett was playing

St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008

by vivaelpujols on May 9, 2009 12:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

I know

if it was I am sure he would have had a scrappy zone rating….. defensive stats are still pretty arbitrary so ill leave it at that.

Definitive Answers to Impossible Questions What baseball team did A. Lincoln support?

by Andre Fonseca on May 11, 2009 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

Defensive stats aren't arbitrary

They are objective. Yes they have error bars, but over a large sample size they give a pretty good estimate of a players defensive ability.

St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008

by vivaelpujols on May 11, 2009 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Most fielding metrics depend on batted-ball stats

Even if the approach of most fielding metrics was unequivocally right (some people basically say they get very complicated because zones are the wrong place to start, and it takes a lot of adjustments to try to make up for that mistake), we know that scorers in different stadiums judge things like line drives vs. fly balls differently. Hard hits vs. soft hits, also, that sort of thing. Until those inconsistencies get a lot better (until Hit/FX exists, basically) the stats aren’t really any more objective than the error-vs.-hit decision.

I also think that claiming they give a “pretty good estimate” of defensive ability is silly. There is no control value to test against! Just past values, other metrics, and subjective observation. When adjustments are made to zone-based defensive metrics there’s no objective way to test that it’s better. To me the only plausible control is team defensive performance — but even that’s hard to measure objectively without some idea of the how the tendencies of the pitcher and common opponents relate to the ballpark. That’s not to say it can’t be done, it’s just not really done yet.

by aldimond on May 12, 2009 12:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

hmm...
I also think that claiming they give a "pretty good estimate" of defensive ability is silly. There is no control value to test against! Just past values, other metrics, and subjective observation

In theory, Zone Ratings give a pretty good estimate of a players defensive ability over a large sample size, like 2-3 seasons, because all of the subjectivity of batted balls, tends to even out. Obviously there is no way to test if they actually do their job, but in theory they should work.

St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008

by vivaelpujols on May 12, 2009 12:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

in theory

bumble bees shouldn’t fly and Theriot shouldn’t be a good SS.
thankfully neither one reads theories.

Definitive Answers to Impossible Questions What baseball team did A. Lincoln support?

by Andre Fonseca on May 12, 2009 12:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

it would have been funnier if i said

neither one understands Zone Ratings… but its late and my KRAZR is way low for my position

Definitive Answers to Impossible Questions What baseball team did A. Lincoln support?

by Andre Fonseca on May 12, 2009 12:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

I had a link earlier about batted ball stats

and I don’t want to find it again… basically there are stadiums where more line drives are recorded, year after year, than others, for no discernable reason other than subjective scorers. If the same scorer is at your park over a two- or three-year span you could get a consistent bias, numbers that are steady but wrong. And every park and pitching staff gives you different opportunities and challenges.

Even if we had a magical HitFX that applied for all the , though, you didn’t address the point you quoted. When we do real science we test theories’ predictions against an objective control measurement. There is no objective control measurement for a player’s defensive ability. There are some indications that a measurement could be on the right track, but I think it’s incredibly presumptuous at this point to claim that a player added or subtracted some number of runs with his offense or defense.

AND EVEN IF you have a way to divide up contributions between players on a team that is generally accepted, expressing it as a single value number, “runs” or “wins”, is an absurd reduction. It’s the start of armchair GMs. If you really want to understand what’s going on you have to understand the stats in their proper context. Easier to do by far with simple stats that measure one specific thing. The cults of OPS, VORP (and its cousins), UZR, FIPS, etc., are infuriating, even though the people that came up with them were doing good work. In a lot of ways the more you add the worse they get if you want to think deeply about a situation. OPS is worse than getting all three slash stats; getting a player’s OPS+ and a park’s “park factor” is a worse predictor of how the player will perform there than the components of OPS and the park’s specific features.

by aldimond on May 12, 2009 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oops, editing fart in the second paragraph

The point is that even if we had HitFX we have no objective control to measure the theory of zone ratings against, just a lot of guesses. Some people think that the zone ratings have undervalued Ichiro, for example (a plausible reason would be that the guy collecting batted-ball stats at Safeco Field was consistently different than average in some way; another is that the zone rating formula fails to take into account something he does well, or account to much for something he does poorly). But there’s no way to tell whether that’s really true, or whether the people that think that have an inaccurate idea of Ichiro’s defensive ability.

by aldimond on May 12, 2009 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Okay
AND EVEN IF you have a way to divide up contributions between players on a team that is generally accepted, expressing it as a single value number, "runs" or "wins", is an absurd reduction

The point of putting a run value on those things isn’t necessarily to see how many runs they would contribute, but only as a baseline for valuing players. While the specific detatlis are a little hazy (I maintain that UZR is good over a large sample size, but it is pretty much worthless over 1 season), you generally get numbers that fit within a certain range.

For example, before UZR, nobody really knew how much defender were worth in terms of runs. Now, we know that the best defenders are worth about +20 and the worst are about -20. That allows for a better valuation of a ceratin players talents. Same with Linear weights, as they just give a baseline for a how much players are worth offensively.

St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008

by vivaelpujols on May 12, 2009 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

The question is how you "know" these things

when there’s no control to measure against. UZR is a cool theory that sounds good, but when someone criticizes the theory can you give empirical evidence that it’s correct? That is, can you prove that each defender makes separate, linear contributions to a team’s run prevention based on the number of balls hit in certain zones and the number of outs he creates? I would guess that’s a decent model for how defense works, but we can’t test how close it is to reality — if we see what appears to be a problem with the model we can try to correct it but we can’t measure whether it made the model better.

Because we can’t do these things, the statement, “I maintain that UZR is good” over even an infinite sample of unchanging players is silly. Because the numbers fall in a consistent range we think that it measures something, but we can’t prove that it measures run prevention.

by aldimond on May 13, 2009 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

The theory behind it is rock solid

and it has been worked on and modified by a lot of really smart people for the past 6 years. I know that we can’t prove it works (besides just comparing UZR to DER or something), but it seems like a very good model and it’s the best that we have.

St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008

by vivaelpujols on May 13, 2009 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah not really

I wish they did… whats Theriots league Range factor per game and compare it with Hanley Ramirez at short. Oh crap they are almost exactly the same. Ok lets check with Rollins.. crap the same, um well um yea I guess defensive stats do suck.

Definitive Answers to Impossible Questions What baseball team did A. Lincoln support?

by Andre Fonseca on May 12, 2009 12:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

range factor is 30 years old

St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008

by vivaelpujols on May 12, 2009 9:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

They are called "intangibles" because they can't be measured by stats

Stats measure performance, so if something can’t be measured by stats, it likely isn’t very important.

St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008

by vivaelpujols on May 6, 2009 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh, don't get me started.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on May 6, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Just as long as we distinguish "can't" from "isn't"

I love sabermetrics but let’s not claim we are measuring everything there is to measure. We’re closer in baseball than in other sports… hell, we’re closer in baseball than we are in most fields of human endeavor. But we will never measure everything.

Remember, “stats” used to mean triple-crown stats. We used to disregard walks and overvalue singles; then someone decided to add OBP and SLG to form the (flawed but useful) OPS. We disregarded defense for a while and now UZR (again, imperfect but useful) is showing us how many runs it can save. We think we can describe a player’s full value to a team in runs or wins… well, we’ve just started on that.

For example, is a walk by a good baserunner hitting in front of a great slugger worth the same as a walk by a poor baserunner hitting in front of his pitcher? Clearly not, and clearly the opposition does not act as if they’re the same; they’re more likely to attack the first and pitch around the second. But even our stat that is in the best position to pick up differing values of the “same” actions in different contexts, WPA, doesn’t pick that up. Bonds broke Henderson’s career record for walks (by a lot), but did he derive more value from walking, largely while batting 3rd and 4th with no lineup protection after losing his base-stealing ability (though he still was a good baserunner), than Henderson did while batting first and wreaking havoc on the paths? It could be argued all night, and there’s no existing statistical method that even claims to help.

by aldimond on May 6, 2009 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

But those are different than intangibles

I agree that their are aspect of a players performance that can’t be measured by stats, however those things (like the walk example you mentioned) are real actions that have an obvious affect on what happens on the field. They are not qualities like “leadership” and “heart” which lead people to think that players are actually better than the impact they have on the game.

St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008

by vivaelpujols on May 6, 2009 8:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, you could measure the walk thing by stats...

… if you came up with a way to modify WPA (or alternately something like fangraphs’ RE24) to account for teammate/opposition strength. Someone with stats knowledge and lots of CPU time on his hands will do it someday (CPU time is always getting cheaper and more ubiquitous, which has been a real boon for sabermetrics).

Leadership is good to have. Good leaders can help their teammates just like good coaches can. Especially catchers working with pitchers, who can have an effect both while playing and while preparing for a game. I’d group things a player does that affect other players, both on and off the field, with leadership. They won’t show up in his stats but they will show up in hard-to-measure ways in those of other players (I’ve never heard much made of catcher’s ERA, for example), like the contribution of coaches. I have no idea how much it matters at a Major League level. At low levels of most team sports it clearly matters a quite a lot, and at high levels in sports like basketball and football it probably matters more than in baseball. I’d still want some good leaders, especially at catcher, and on the pitching staff — at the very least it can’t hurt.

To whatever extent they affect the player’s own peformance, they do show up in the player’s stats, the record of the game. “True talent level” is an intangible — it can only be seen indirectly in the outcomes. Now, it’s true that if any of a player’s specific intangibles cause him to perform consistently better or worse in specific types of situations stats will show this in time. Knowing what those intangibles are — speed or hustle, a quick first step or good (or lucky) positioning, a strong arm, a quick release, or situational awareness — will tell a manager what to expect from a player in other situations and how to coach him just as much as the pure results will. Some fans go way beyond this and overestimate the value of “heart”. Even so, I think effort is a perfectly fair thing to appreciate in a player, as long as it can be put aside when evaluating front office moves.

by aldimond on May 7, 2009 12:25 AM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

good points

Your last sentence is really the only reason that I’m not so high on intangibles.

St. Louis Cardinals... defying win expectancy since 2008

by vivaelpujols on May 7, 2009 12:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

Great post

It’s nice to have a pro-Theriot post on here.

I want to go argue everytime I see one that posts against Ryan. That would be such an uphill battle though. Kudos to you on writing this one!

by MattHaggard on May 5, 2009 12:19 PM CDT reply actions  

I'm starting to come around on Theriot

Not because of the homeruns, but the fact that he’s hitting for extra bases, period. And the baserunning gaffes seem to have been straightened out to date.

My biggest issue with him was always the fact many players that don’t have the physical abilities of stars often are great at the fundamentals and playing smart — and he didn’t seem to me to be doing that this year.

(Note to a couple of “baseball experts” from other threads — that’s what I’d observed. Flame away about the fact that I didn’t play “at a high level”; I won’t acknowledge it.)

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on May 5, 2009 2:43 PM CDT reply actions  

I agree.

Any issue I had with Theriot have more to do with how Hendry/Lou have used him and not him as a player. I love that he’s the underdog and been able to come up from being Dusty’s best, but unused, option to an every day player.

I recall most of the abuse toward Theriot around the all-star and the line was whether he was as good or better than Rollins, Reyes and Ramirez.

He will never hit a top 10 defensive SS list, but with the extra power on top of his great average, smarter baserunning, and more than adequate defense, he may be earning a much bigger paycheck as a SS in the future.

if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand

by N Oakley on May 6, 2009 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Minor clarification

He didn’t seem to be playing smart in years past. So far, I haven’t noticed the same faux pas.

I agree with N Oakley’s comments, too — overcoming Dusty’s preference for Neifi is a great story.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on May 6, 2009 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

I have always liked Theriot

and I like your post.

I am always reminded of the old cliche when there is something of a love/hate emotion of anything or anyone. Be careful what you ask for.

Can the Cubs do better with a different SS? Maybe. Can they do worse? Hell, yes.

A good article on Cubs.com today about The Riot and Von Joshua. I’m glad he’s getting some HR’s, but I am most happy that he simply plays hard and lays it all out there every game. That’s all you can ask and expect. He is a crucial piece to this team and when we finally win the WS, I am sure it will be partly because of Ryan.

"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse

by BigJohnAZ on May 5, 2009 9:12 PM CDT reply actions  

Since you are a friend of the Theriot family

maybe you can answer a question I’ve been wondering since the beginning of the season. What was Theriot’s offseason like? The past couple years, he has seemingly worn down physically by the end of the year (beyond what is typical for any baseball player). Did he train really hard in the offseason, or stay away from the game to recharge the batteries? Or did he do nothing different and I’m seeing things that aren’t there?

Regardless, he looks fantastic this year, and much more energized. Which is good; I got my mom a Theriot jersey (her favorite player) and I would like it if he stuck around for a while!

by Pat19 on May 6, 2009 12:20 AM CDT reply actions  

Well...

I’m honestly not sure about the specifics of his offseason training routine. When I see him around in Baton Rouge, I try not to be the guy that peppers him with Cubs questions. He’s definitely a gym rat though, to the point of being obnoxious about it. He’s had a lower back issue for a long time, and it can wear him down if he doesn’t take good care of it. His late season decline in ‘08 was much less than in ’07, so I’m hoping he’s getting better acclimated to the long season with more experience, and will have a better finish (all the way through October) this year.

by lsutgrcub on May 6, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks!

I really do hope the back issue is well taken care of- not just by Ryan, but by the coaching staff. When other guys were getting rest last year, he seemed to play all the time. Hopefully we can give him plenty of off days, to keep him fresh.

by Pat19 on May 6, 2009 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Gym Rat?

Maybe it’s just me but Theriot comes across as the last person on the team to be a gym rat…

by ak123 on May 6, 2009 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Doesn't mean he's a bodybuilder

Maybe the guy runs a lot . . . or does pilates.

by madcow256 on May 6, 2009 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly

You don’t want your middle infielders bulking up too much- you’d rather have them focusing more of their workouts on flexibility (etc.).

by Pat19 on May 7, 2009 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

theriot

for all the theriot bashers out there remember this. 2 years ago cesar izturiz was your starting ss. be carefull what you wish for.

by NOMAR on May 6, 2009 8:36 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

exactly...

we went through a period where we couldnt find a shortstop no matter what (gonzalez, nomar, izturis, cedeno, etc) its nice to finally have one

by JTcubbies on May 6, 2009 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed

And, while we have some nice clutch hitters (like ARam), I think, with the game on the line and us needing a big base hit, I would want Theriot up over anybody else on the team. He is built to be a base hit machine, something I think he does very well. Plus, he can easily hit to the opposite field or pull the ball, so it makes it harder for defenses to shift on him. He takes what the pitcher gives him and gets the job done.

When I began playing the game, baseball was about as gentlemanly as a kick in the crotch. -Ty Cobb

by SotoRiot on May 6, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Plus, he can easily hit to the opposite field or pull the ball

Ahem. I think Riot has pulled the ball more so far this season then he did in all of 2008. Don’t get me wrong — I’m thrilled to see him doing it. But I don’t think we can draw any more conclusions than “he’s made some changes, let’s see how this shakes out”.

I can think of at least four other players I feel are more “valuable” than Riot:

Soto
Z
Marmol
Dome

But that’s just me.

"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella

by drewishdrewid on May 6, 2009 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Disagree on Fukudome

Atleast it’s been proven that we can count on Theriot for the entire season to be consistent.

by ak123 on May 6, 2009 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure

I agree with that. His offensive production didn’t drop off as badly in 2008 as it did in 2007, but it did drop off.

"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella

by drewishdrewid on May 6, 2009 10:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're right

But that was two years ago and last year he was pretty consistent. Personally, I’m least concerned about Theriot’s production for the year than the rest of the teams. I expect him to hit close to .300 and get on base often.

He does have to cut down on his strikeouts as of late.

by ak123 on May 7, 2009 7:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Great post.

Theriot is one of my favorites for a lot of the reasons above. Do I think he is the NL’s best SS? No, but it’s hard to argue what he has given to this team.

Glad to see some other Theriot fans come out of the woodwork.

by Tangled Up In Blue on May 6, 2009 1:00 PM CDT reply actions  

I'm a fan of

Theriot and have never bashed him. I was happy that we got rid of Cedeno and made Theriot our everyday SS.

by Cubs and Hawks fan on May 6, 2009 1:15 PM CDT reply actions  

Um, Cedeno was never an impediment to Theriot.

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by daver on May 6, 2009 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

except for that whole

voodoo doll thing.

"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella

by drewishdrewid on May 6, 2009 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Theriot has been a great surprise the past two-plus years

I’m a Riot fan — and I think he could make the All-Star team if he keeps getting extra-base hits.

Hell, before Theriot, short was becoming a blackhole for the Cubs.

by elgato on May 6, 2009 2:41 PM CDT reply actions  

Theriot all-star caliber ss? Really?

Have you heard of Jimmy Rollins, Hanley Ramirez, Jose Reyes, Rafael Furcal, Troy Tulowitzki, JJ Hardy, or Yunel Escobar? Those are just the NL shortstops the Cubs would take over Theriot in a heartbeat. The guy just isn’t a better option than any of these players. He’s off to a decent start but he has obvious limitations. He’s shown in the past that he tries to make plays he’s not capable of and he makes boneheaded choices on the base paths. Despite his 3 recent home runs, he’s shown that he’s a singles hitter that can’t maintain his production over the course of an entire season.

by Acapulco Taco Pie on May 6, 2009 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

"could make an All-Star team"

that’s a fair comment. If Theriot can continue to carry his good average and high OBP AND keep showing gap power for doubles AND maintain average to above average defensive measurements, he could make an All Star Team. Keeping in mind, making a team doesn’t make you better than someone else.

if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand

by N Oakley on May 7, 2009 8:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

AND Jimmy Rollins AND Rafael Furcal AND Jose Reyes AND Hanley Ramirez

all get hurt or abducted by aliens, then Theriot might make the all-star team. You know who else could make the all-star team? If Joey Gathright suddely hit 50 HRs, I bet he would make it too

Some people have 3 layers, like pie. Blog Blog Blog

by berselius on May 7, 2009 8:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

Here's the thing, though.

Look at the vote tallies from last year. Consider that Lou may continue to campaign for Theriot. Ryan Theriot could easily make the All-Star squad. He wouldn’t deserve it in the traditional sense of being one of the best 2-3 NL SSs. He’s not even close to that. But the amazing thing is that enough Cub fans believe he is. And some of them even get offended and call it “bashing” when you refuse to admit that he’s at that level.

It seems to me that Ryan Theriot works very hard on his P.R. and reaps the rewards for his efforts.

Derrek Lee is good.

by DGU on May 7, 2009 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think Theriot works that hard for his P.R.

The media loves him because he’s the go-to guy for quotes now. But they’ve been all over him for quite some time now. It’s not like he hired a publicist or anything.

Some people have 3 layers, like pie. Blog Blog Blog

by berselius on May 7, 2009 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

But he does have a website

here.

I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg

by Bill Potter on May 11, 2009 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

$80 for a signed Theriot ball?

Can’t imagine he’s sold too many.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on May 11, 2009 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

heck

I got a DLee and a Soriano, both for free!

"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella

by drewishdrewid on May 12, 2009 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd only pay that much...

…if he double-clutched it to me personally.

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by daver on May 13, 2009 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

I believe you're being a bit harsh.

Our Riot isn’t going to get out of bed one morning and be a better SS than three of the four listed (Furcal may recede quick enough for Theriot to pass him).

All it takes is for one player to slump or one or two minor injuries to cause someone to pull out of the game. If Joe, freakin, Girardi could be the AS Catcher during that mediocre year, why couldn’t a SS with decent enough fielding and hitting numbers like his get added to the roster?

As I thought was clear by my previous post, making the All Star Team doesn’t make him better than another player.

if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand

by N Oakley on May 8, 2009 8:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

Wow, you just know how to make friends, don't you.

This comment was totally uncalled for.

Hey, I just posted a fanshot — why don’t you go post something snarky in there, too.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on May 6, 2009 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Clever!

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on May 6, 2009 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko

by DTJchris on May 7, 2009 12:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah

I like to make you look stupid

"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko

by DTJchris on May 7, 2009 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

Go away

Honestly, you’re the type of person who makes others not want to come to this site.

by ak123 on May 6, 2009 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

No, someone who is rude and abrasive to most everyone you encounter

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on May 6, 2009 10:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Speaking of Theriot and baserunning

What surprises me is that Cedeno was roundly despised over here for his poor baserunning, while Theriot makes quite a few baserunning gaffes of his own (aside from the piles of CS that he tallied last year). You can find a list of theriot blunders (also known as TOOTBLANs) at WV23

Some people have 3 layers, like pie. Blog Blog Blog

by berselius on May 6, 2009 4:42 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Ahem.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on May 6, 2009 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

actually

he’s taken some flak for those TOOTBLANs. But at least he can hit. I always felt that Cedeno got a bad rap, too.

"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella

by drewishdrewid on May 6, 2009 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

its just that everytime he takes flak, the OP gets jumped on for busting on him.

but theres no point in having another full fledged theriot argument, we all know where we stand.

by aramis on May 6, 2009 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Orval's comment was uncalled for.

So was yours.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on May 7, 2009 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

I hope Orval

didn’t pull a hammy.

"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella

by drewishdrewid on May 7, 2009 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

You mean a crammy?

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by daver on May 7, 2009 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

getting to this late

Apologies and all for offending your sensibilities. I find it hard to believe your delicate ears blanche at “cram it” but have no problem with “stroking a guy”.

Believe it or not, some people on this site genuinely like some of the players on the Cubs. I know thats a real stretch for you to understand, but we admire and appreciate both the effort they put into it, and the results they attain. Theriot is having a great season, and right now is invaluable to our offense. The LSU guy should be able to express his admiration for that without having some crank compare his post to stroking a guy.

by Orval Overall on May 8, 2009 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

You and I frequently disagree,

but I agree with your second paragraph. He is having a really good start to the season and deserves praise.

As for the language discussion, you both must have missed the memo.

if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand

by N Oakley on May 8, 2009 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

stroking = lavishing inordinate praise on a player

I meant stroking only in the sense in which it’s used to denote “stroking” of someone’s ego. As far as I know stroking isn’t a vulgar term in the context I was using it. There was no double meaning intended, so sorry if that was so offensive to all. Orval fails to understand that expressing admiration for someone can in fact be “stroking” their ego. I wasn’t trying to simply insult someone personally by telling them to cram an object in an area where it would provide discomfort. I also didn’t bother to call anyone a crank but that’s to be expected from someone seemingly incapable of simple comprehension.
I was actually trying to convey the fact that this post, in my opinion, is not in fact a “great post.” To me it appears as if someone is trying to embellish upon their “brush” with “greatness.” Whether someone has had some sort of personal contact with a player or not it’s irrelevant to the talent of the player and their relative value to the team.
 My biggest problem with Theriot is that he makes mental errors on the base paths and in the field that negate some of the value he brings to the team. I don’t know if any of you were watching him get picked off of third base in Houston Thursday night but that’s exactly the type of boneheaded play that has become his trademark. There is absolutely no reason or excuse to get picked off in that situation, none whatsoever. There have been at least two recent incidents in the field in which he was wildly calling off other players and then failed to make the catch. People can continue to praise him and ignore his obvious gaffes but that doesn’t mean they aren’t real. I can deal with players making errors or failing but continual mental lapses are extremely frustrating to watch.

by Acapulco Taco Pie on May 9, 2009 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

just to clarify

When I mentioned players making errors I meant physical errors not mental errors.
Unfortunately, Theriot has made some of the same mental errors over and over.

by Acapulco Taco Pie on May 9, 2009 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

If I know one thing

its that in every thread you will insist on having the last 1,200 words, many of them devoted to the idea that you’re a genius, whose unfortunate draw in life is to be surrounded by ordinary folk who are smart enough to understand how virtuous and insightful your original comment was.

Lets test my theory.

by Orval Overall on May 9, 2009 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ryan Theriot is a SS

that many other teams would covet. He’s more than serviceable.

My problem (really, it will be his problem) is that this sudden burst of power — is just a mirage, and if Theriot thinks, “…gee, I’ve got to drive the ball, Lou says so…” this is a major mistake.

Friday’s night’s at-bat in the 8th inning in Milwaukee, with the bases loaded, a perfect example… Instead of taking a pitch or two — he looked to drive that first pitch to Lake Michigan. All that was needed was a thoughtful at bat (which he normally delivers) but — he corkscrewed himself into the ground on that first pitch, a curve, out of the zone. For the remainder of the at-bat, he looked awful. It seems the advance scouting has already caught up to what seems to be Theriot’s “new” mindset.

If Soriano does that, I can live with it. Theriot just needs to take pitches, draw walks, hit to the oppoistie field. Suddenly, his “slugger” mind set cost the Cubs a chance to add runs, and perhaps — change the entire complexion of Friday night’s game.

Forget about Heilman’s blown hold….Theriot’s miserable at bat cost the Cubs the game. I expect him to run the count, when he’s at the plate with the bases loaded, and possibly line a mistake pitch to LF…….this team doesn’t need looping, HR swings in an attempt to send pitches to Bernie Brewer’s brewhouse. There are other bats on this team being paid to do so, who need to step it up.

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on May 9, 2009 3:15 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

That at-bat in the 8th was only 1 pitch

I agree with your sentiment, though. The top of the 8th is where it went off the tracks, not the bottom.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on May 9, 2009 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

This post...

is bad luck, can we take it down? Ryan’s swing is all out of whack, as is Fontenot.

To the guys that bashed me for “pretending to be friends with Theriot”, “stroking him”, etc…well, I’ll refrain from dropping to your level out of respect for Mr. Al. Suffice to say, maybe you should get out and breathe some fresh air every once in a while.

Geaux Cubs!!!

by lsutgrcub on May 13, 2009 2:55 PM CDT reply actions  

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