Dusty Baker ruining his shortstop's arm?
by HoosierFan on May 7, 2009 1:30 PM CDT
65 comments
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brewers/44499482.html
Those who saw the Brewers game last night know that Dusty sent Paul Janish to the mound in the 9th inning. He made the poor guy throw 35 pitches and he was obviously laboring. Anyone think that pitching all of a sudden could injure a guy's arm, and hurt his career? I think we all know that Dusty does not care about player's careers in the long run, and will grind them into the ground. But this could be a new low even for him.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Dude, you gotta make sure your horses are ready for the playoffs. Even your SS.
And besides, Dusty is keeping his pitchers to a strict 180-pitch pitch count.
"I'm not much of a chemistry guy, you know. Chemistry to me is a pinch-hit double with the bases loaded"--Jim Frey, Chicago Tribune, 1985.
by zevkalman on May 7, 2009 1:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
In Dusty's defense
It’s not uncommon to have a position player pitch in a blowout.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 7, 2009 1:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Happened
twice already this year. Yankees and Red Sox both have done it. (both with good innings i might add). Swisher and Van Every I believe
Oriole by nurture. Cub by marriage.
by wax eagle on May 7, 2009 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Swisher recorded a strikeout, I believe...
How embarrasing for whoever that batter was.
by MillsChC on May 7, 2009 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
On July 4, 1977....
… in the first game of a doubleheader, the Cubs were losing 11-2 in the 8th. To save the bullpen, Herman Franks brought Larry Biittner in to pitch. He immediately gave up a three-run homer to Larry Parrish and two more homers (one to Andre Dawson) in the ninth. He also got warned by the plate umpire because a pitch got away and came near Del Unser’s head (there was no way he was throwing at him).
But Biittner also struck out three. WGN-TV put up a graphic that read: “LARRY BIITTNER: PIITCHING”
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on May 7, 2009 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
did they strike out
because they were afraid to get into the batters box?
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 7, 2009 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe.
I should point out that Paul Janish also had two K’s last night vs. Milwaukee.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on May 7, 2009 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
God, I remember that so well
If memory serves, they lost game two of the doubleheader also.
To my 14 year old eyes this was the first troubling sign that the ’77 club might not have what it took to hang in over the long haul.
by bluekoolaide on May 7, 2009 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was just talking about this game with one of my co-workers
who also remembered watching it. He looked up Biitner’s ERA and it was 40-something.
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 8, 2009 1:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lou would never do it
I see him playing Zambrano in the outfield before that happens.
by ak123 on May 7, 2009 2:23 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Zambrano
would crash headfirst into the ivy going after a ball in a 15-0 game. And everyone here would say, “Wow, that’s good baseball!”
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on May 7, 2009 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 7, 2009 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno.
If the bullpen had been overworked and the Cubs were losing 18-0, I could see him using a position player.
Maybe we could finally have a use for Joey Gathright.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on May 7, 2009 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
have we ascertained
that Gathright can actually throw the ball?
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 7, 2009 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point.
I don’t think I have seen that yet.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on May 7, 2009 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
can he run the ball to home
and stretch his arm out to simulate a pitch?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on May 7, 2009 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
does he have to go
SWWWWOOOOOOOSH!!!! VOOOOOOOOM!!!! WHAPT!
when he does it?
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 7, 2009 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
sure why not
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on May 7, 2009 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
because that means asking
him to run, hold the ball and make noise all at the same time.
THREE THINGS, man!
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on May 7, 2009 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
but if we put a car between home and the mound
he can do it all and be just fine
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on May 7, 2009 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like a recipe
for an Eephus pitch.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
by Archie on May 12, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it was Riot....
…would his double clutch be considered a balk?
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on May 7, 2009 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joey has but one use on this club...
to occasionally entertain Lou by jumping over inadament objects.
by Damen Jackson on May 7, 2009 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
inadament objects: objects that aren't very opinionated or are easy to cut or break.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 7, 2009 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I've never known a car...
to be opinionated or easy to break.
Free Ronny Cedeno
by Kansas25 on May 8, 2009 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I had a couple cars in college that were pretty easy to break.
And I certainly made sure they proved it.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on May 8, 2009 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dusty could identify cure for cancer, and there would be clowns on this board who criticize
Let it go dude. Dusty is in his 16th season managing and obviously must know what he is doing at some level.
The window for winning a World Series may have waned.
by BLou on May 7, 2009 2:27 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
While you're probably right, it would have had more impact without the "clown" part
At least, I’m guessing that’s true for the original poster
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 7, 2009 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You've got over 2000 comments on this name alone,
and I’m pretty sure you don’t know what you’re talking about on any level…
Are you on Twitter? Check out the BCB and Cubs Twitter Community! Post your Twitter name and start tweeting with us!
by Schwa on May 7, 2009 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That sound you hear
is the earth spinning at least slightly of its axis. Minus the bad language I agree with Blou. The Cubs and Dusty both needed a change
but the continuing harping on him as a terrible manager is stupid.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on May 7, 2009 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What language?
Clown? If that’s a bad word now Barnum & Bailey are in trouble.
by GoCubbies34 on May 7, 2009 6:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is typical of nasty name calling
to often used around here. You can get your point across without generic insults.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on May 7, 2009 7:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes he knows something
How to BS his way into a job.
I’m over 2003, 2004, and even 2005. But he sat his @$$ and didn’t give a crap about 2006. We might not have been able to content but we could have been better than 66 wins. I’m mad about that year because I invested money in tickets, MLB.TV, etc. and I wanted to see our teams manager actually care about getting a win.
by ak123 on May 7, 2009 10:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dusty was handed a crap and deeply flawed roster in 2006
It has forever been fashionable among Cub fans to go into extreme emotion swings on managers. There is typically hyper-euphoria for the new guy hired which invariably turns south after the two or three year mark to the point. It’s ridiculously way to extreme in each direction.
Dusty shares culpability for the debacle of 2006. But if you want to point the biggest finger than point it at Jim Hendry and a number of key players who very much dropped the ball.
The window for winning a World Series may have waned.
by BLou on May 7, 2009 10:54 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Please stop posting things like this
I am getting very scared because I keep agreeing with you. I am sure we can get back to arguing about Lou soon.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on May 7, 2009 11:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
I have never understood the excessive euphoria and inevitable bitter hatred Cub fans have for the manager. It happens every time like clockwork. New guy comes in and Cub fans go out of their mind crazy (okay, maybe not with a doormat like Jim Lefebrve we didn’t) then two or three years into the marriage the manager gets 99% of the blame and hatred when things don’t go according to plan. Which for an organization that last won a World Series since 2008 is normal operating procedure as we have so tragically come to find out.
I’m glad Dusty is gone too. But fact is he received ridiculously harsh critique from many Cub fans. And I will never understand the insistence that Dusty destroyed pitching arms and was anti-youth. Seems to me that Dusty has been solidly vindicated on both accounts. Dusty didn’t ruin Mark Prior and fact of the matter is he was right in his assessment to shy away from “can’t miss” players like Corey Patterson, Hee Seop Choi, Bobby Hill given hindsight.
The window for winning a World Series may have waned.
by BLou on May 7, 2009 11:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Meant obviously to say 1908....NOT 2008 (I wish)
The window for winning a World Series may have waned.
by BLou on May 7, 2009 11:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even with limited options
Insisting on trying to make Neffi a lead off hitter and Hawkins a closer were among his dumber moves but I agree that
the hatred and contempt is totally uncalled for. The Cubs were basically a hospital ward in 06 but best for each side that he moved on. I think Cub fans underestimate him and the Reds at their peril,
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on May 8, 2009 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
MLB Network
I was watching MLB last night while Janish was pitching. It was very entertaining listening to the vastly differnet opinions of Reynolds and Leiter on the subject. Leiter didnt think there was anything wrong with it and Reynolds thaught it should be banned.
Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand. - Homer J Simpson
by MikeOxbyg on May 7, 2009 2:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Banned?
Good idea. Massively overuse your bullpen arms in a blowout. It obviously shouldn’t happen often, but it doesn’t.
by chitownhawkeye on May 7, 2009 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
For pete's sake...
Dusty didn’t do anything any other manager wouldn’t do. There is no evidence that Dusty doesn’t care about his player’s careers; none. When he pitched Wood and Prior long in ‘03, no other coach on the staff had any problem with it, neither did Wood or Prior. If you are any student of the game, you would understand that pitch counts are a relatively new concept in the game, and that pitchers in the past would routinely throw 200 or more pitches a game. Prior and Wood, and their injuries, have much more to do with their faulty mechanics; and the failure of many coaches throughout their careers’ in correcting them. Dusty got a bad rap in Chicago, and it continues to this day. Let it go.
I'm a truth teller, I'm a risk taker, I'm like Johnny Cash - I walk the line...
by Jimmyeatworld on May 7, 2009 3:13 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
agreed
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on May 7, 2009 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Once again Prior's "faulty" mechanics come up
Am I the only one who remembers his mechanics were considered perfect until the injuries piled up?
I guess not, but I see it thrown around a lot here.
by chitownhawkeye on May 7, 2009 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
His mechanics were considered perfect by all those in his camp.
Part of what got Prior to where he was so quickly was the ability of his father, House, and others to convince that he had perfect mechanics. However, even from the beginning, there were those outside his camp warning that indeed his mechanics were not perfect. Besides, once he was injured, it has been proven that he was rushed back too soon, and that his mechanics were altered, ever so slightly, to allow him to pitch when his arm/shoulder was not healthy at all.
I'm a truth teller, I'm a risk taker, I'm like Johnny Cash - I walk the line...
by Jimmyeatworld on May 7, 2009 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That makes sense
I just didn’t ever remember hearing from this other camp at the time. I would imagine that, like most things, there is a lot of debate over what even constitutes “perfect” mechanics. At the end of the day, all that matters is results, and in that area, Prior succeded initially, but majorly failed long term.
by chitownhawkeye on May 7, 2009 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Prior's mechanics were deemed impeccable by his retained pitching expert Tom House
The rest of the baseball community didn’t share that sentiment in the least.
The window for winning a World Series may have waned.
by BLou on May 7, 2009 10:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is not true.
The SI article on Lincecum last year specificly quoted a scout having identified that Prior’s motion was flawed and prone to break down when comparing the love for little Timmy.
While many in baseball bought into Prior’s mechanics being sound, there were definitely others who disagreed.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on May 8, 2009 8:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you are agreeing with BLou's point
He said that House thought his mechanics were impeccable, many others did not.
by rlpete on May 8, 2009 8:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Poop, reading is fundamental.
Fooled again by a double negative and that’s not insignificant.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on May 8, 2009 8:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My only question is who the hell is Paul Janish?
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on May 7, 2009 4:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Paul Ryan Janish is originally from Houston.
He’s played a lot in Louisville over the last couple years, so I’ve seen him a bunch in Indianapolis.
Additionally ,he attended Rice University. In 2004 he was the first recipient of the Dernell Stenson Award as Most Valuable Player of the Florida Instructional League. If you’d like to learn more, click here and go to page 31.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on May 7, 2009 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks!
So, in short, all-glove/no-bat Reds utility man prospect.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on May 8, 2009 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you've got it pegged.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on May 8, 2009 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I could be very wrong
But I think Lou would let a pitcher have an ERA of 100+ before taking the risk of a position player injuring his arm.
by ak123 on May 7, 2009 9:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I love the Dusty bashing....
Move on guys seriously. It is getting old.
For you Dusty bashers here is are some stats for you:
Playoff series wins in a CUBS uniform:
Dusty 1, Lou 0
Playoff games won in a CUBS uniform:
Dusty 6, Lou 0
Playoff games lost in a CUBS uniform:
Dusty 6, Lou 6
Apperances in the playoffs in a Cubs uniform:
Dusty 1, Lou 2
So really, NIETHER have done anything super for the Cubs, so get over it and move on. If Lou’s team does the same thing that they have done the past few years, the Dusty bashers will soon become Lou bashers.
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
by HIGGY on May 8, 2009 7:34 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
"So really, [BOTH] had done [something that other] Cubs [managers have not done with any regularity], so get over it and move on."
/fixed.
I agree that winning a WS is the only standard that matters. When compared against other Cubs managers of the last 60 years, only one (Jim Frey) came as close as Dusty to making a World Series.
And I believe (but am sure I’ll be corrected if I’m wrong) that none has matched Lou in taking his team to the playoffs in back-to-back years. That’s nothing to sneeze at, the late 80s and 90s weren’t all that long ago, we should feel lucky not to be saddled with those teams again.
by Orval Overall on May 8, 2009 8:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ironically....
i think we reached the same point, just different roads.
I agree with what you are saying.
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
by HIGGY on May 8, 2009 8:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
35 Pitches???
Oh come on. That is only overusing your arm if you’re gunning it as hard as you can. I didn’t see Janish pitch, but I imagine that like most people in that role, he was (or should have been) tossing at a BP speed. The idea is not to dominate the other lineup, but to make them put it in play where, inevitably, at least half the time they will make an out.
On the topic of pitch counts, how many pitches do you think a typical pitcher throws just while warming up for a game? Or warming up between innings? If you want a sense of what a pitcher’s real limit reasonably should be, you have to add that to the 100-115 recorded pitches thrown per game. I don’t know the answer, but my guess is in a typical start with 100+ recorded pitches, there are another 60-70 as part of warming up (maybe 20 before the game, 7 or so before each of 6 or 7 subsequent innings).
While we’re on the topic, I don’t see this gem among the posts about other times where this was done:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20021211&content_id=184550&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=null
Gracie for Cy Young!
by Orval Overall on May 8, 2009 7:56 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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