The Lament of "The Next Felix Pie"

by DGU on Jun 10, 2009 1:22 PM CDT

Reading responses to the Cubs' recent draft choice, I was struck by the prospect pessimism so many had. Just because a player is left-handed and plays CF doesn't mean he's the "next Pie or Colvin." Every player is different.

Indeed, if we wanted to be pessimistic, we should be pessimistic about all CF prospects in general, because the major leagues as a whole haven't been too kind recently to top CF prospects.

Over the past two years, there have been a ton of top CF prospects getting their chances to break into the major leagues. Working off of Baseball America's 2007 top prospect list (with references to where they landed in 2008 and 2009's lists when eligible), we've seen:

#6 Cameron Maybin, 2008's #6, 2009's #8

#13 Andrew McCutchen, 2008's #14, 2009's #33

#18 Carlos Gonzalez, 2008's #22

#28 Adam Jones

#29 Colby Rasmus, 2008's #5, 2009's #3

#33 Jacoby Ellsbury, 2008's #13

#48 Dexter Fowler, 2008's #74, 2009's #15

#49 Felix Pie

#55 Ryan Sweeney

#60 Carlos Gomez, 2008's #52

and 2008's #25 Jordan Schafer, 2009s #42

It is astounding how few of these guys have established themselves.

Let's look at where they each have gone.

Cameron Maybin had a miserable first callup at age 20 in Detroit. In 53 PAs, he had 21 Ks and batted just .143/.208/.265. He was traded to FL and had a marvelous September in 2008. Unfortunately, in 2009, at age 22, he was given the starting CF job, but could barely keep his AVG over the Mendoza line and was sent down after 95 PAs. His career OPS+ is 73 after 184 PAs.

Carlos Gonzalez had a rough 2008 with the Oakland A's, coming up at the end of May at age 22. In 316 PAs he hit .242/.273/.361 with 81 Ks. He was traded to COL and has just recently been called up, but has not been hitting well so far. His career OPS+ is 71 after 334 PAs.

Colby Rasmus has been given much playing time for the 2009 Cardinals despite a full OF. At age 22, he had a decent start to the season, but then went cold in May, hitting .212/.256/.447. Tony LaRussa never lost faith, however, and continued to bat Rasmus in key spots in the order. He's started to heat up in June, hitting .462/.462/.808. His career OPS+ is 103 in 189 PAs.

Adam Jones got an early callup at age 20 in Seattle. He struggled in 76 PAs. At age 21, he got another limited chance in 71 PAs and did alright. He was then traded to Baltimore and had a chance to play as a full-time player. At age 22, it was a rough season. The first month, he posted a middling .700 OPS, then struggled in May, hitting .226/.273/.312. The O's didn't give up, however and got to see two strong months from June and just into August, before injuries derailed his season. Of course, this year, most of you know he has exploded, hitting .340/.390/.584. His career OPS+ is 98 in 889 PAs.

Jacoby Ellsbury, at age 23, had a strong late-season callup in 2007. He was given a lot of playing time, then, in 2008, but failed to duplicate his rookie season success. In particular, he went into a deep slump in the summer months of June and July. Boston didn't give up, though, and kept playing him. They were rewarded with a August and September bounce-back. In 2009, Ellsbury has struggled with left-handers. With a career OPS+ of 92 in 988 PAs, Boston fans have to begin to wonder if Ellsbury is much more than a cheaper version of Juan Pierre.

Dexter Fowler has won increasing playing time for himself after just making the team in 2009. At age 23, he started the season strong, but really fell off in May. Colorado stuck with him and is seeing him turn it on in June. His career OPS+ is 83 in 242 PAs.

Felix Pie is known well by Cub fans as a disappointment. The only thing I'd note about his Cubs career (287 PAs total) is that he never had consistent playing time. Finally given that playing time in Baltimore, he struggled immensely, hitting .157/.246/216 over the first month. However, he stepped it up in the second month, hitting .250/.308/.444. His story is not over, although at age 24, he holds a disappointing career OPS+ of 56 in 388 PAs.

Ryan Sweeney was called up for brief stints on the Southside in 2006 and 2007. It wasn't until he was traded to Oakland, however, that he got regular playing time. At age 23, in 433 PAs, he put up a useful line of .286/.350/.383. In 2009, however, he has fallen back such that his career OPS+ stands at 85 after 732 PAs.

Carlos Gomez saw some time at the show in 2007 with the Mets, but did not look ready. The Mets traded him to Minnesota, who gave Gomez an extended shot in 2008, his age 22 season. Gomez responded with a miserable season, that went from bad to worse in the second half. Given more playing time in 2009, he still hasn't gotten his OBP over .300. After 888 PAs, his career OPS+ stands at 73.

Jordan Schafer had a terrific first week in the MLB in 2009. At age 22, he hit the ball all over the place. Since then, he's hit .181/.296/.222 and the Braves sent him down at the end of May. In 195 PAs, he has a career OPS+ of 60.

Andrew McCutchen has just gotten started. So far, so good for him, but 30 PAs doesn't tell us much. We could add the stories of earlier prospects Chris Young (AZ) and Lastings Milledge to stress how difficult it has been for CF prospects, especially of the "toolsy" variety. Adam Jones is the only one with extended, remarkable success. Rasmus and Fowler are looking hopeful, but have had their struggles. Sweeney and Ellsbury have been useful if not spectacular, and also with their own struggles.

One thing that stands out to me, given the similar struggles of these players. Gonzalez was a major piece in the Holliday trade; Gomez in the Johan trade; Maybin in the Miguel Cabrera trade; Jones was in the Bedard trade. Sweeney brought back the then much more respected (not to mention also young and cheap) Nick Swisher. Only Felix Pie was traded for nothing of great value.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Comments

Cub fans have natural pessimism when it comes to positional prospects

And for very good reason. The list of busts and major disappointments since Dallas Green left is lengthy. Add Tyler Colvin to that list too.

You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?

by BLou on Jun 10, 2009 1:35 PM CDT reply actions

Good post

I wasn’t too enamored with the Jackson pick but reassessing who was there at the time, I’m not that upset. I’m happier than I was last year after the Cashner pick. I really didn’t like the idea of a closer in Round 1. We’ll see if he stays as a starter.

Looking at the video of Jackson, I like his swing better than Pie’s. I never like Pie’s from the first time I saw it. The big thing with Jackson is whether through coaching the Cubs can cut down on the K’s.

Of the ones you listed above, I really like what I’ve seen of Rasmus. Jones looks like he is getting it together. I expect Gonzalez and Pie will be busts.

by rlpete on Jun 10, 2009 1:39 PM CDT reply actions

Well

Adam Jones is going to be a star-caliber player for a long time. Colby Rasmus is impressive in his own right.

We’ll see about Brett Jackson. Tim Wilken has not done a good job so far and he needs to get things turned around. I wish I understood what the Cubs seem to be doing with Andrew Cashner. Why screw around with making him a starter? I’m about to write off Jeff Samardizija too, which should get the juices flowing around here. To me, Spellcheck is a Kevin Hart or Jon Leicester type max.

by BLou on Jun 10, 2009 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions

I'll really get the juices flowing by agreeing with you

I don’t really see a bright future for the Shark.

Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.

by nji232 on Jun 10, 2009 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions

Right now

Right now I wouldn’t be surprised to see Shark wind up in the NFL.

Yes I write fluffy fanfiction. I said it. If you want to read some email me for where it is.

by puckishcubsfan on Jun 10, 2009 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions

I was under the impression

that his contract precluded him doing that on a whim.

I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.

by drewishdrewid on Jun 10, 2009 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions

I'm pretty sure you're right

I think that is why he was paid $10 million, to keep him from playing baseball

by CHCOWNTHECENTRAL on Jun 11, 2009 3:16 AM CDT up reply actions

heh

freudian slip?

by drewishdrewid on Jun 11, 2009 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions

Haha yeah shoulda been football

by CHCOWNTHECENTRAL on Jun 11, 2009 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions

Great info.

I must admit, when I heard the Cubs’ No. 1 pick was a CF, I though to myself, “Wow, he’s got a rough road ahead.”

For some reason, I thought Ellsbury had been doing better this season. But I see his OPS is just above .700. He’s hitting for average, though, which is putting him in good position to steal a lot of bags. His career UZR numbers in center show him to be just a touch above league average. All in all, I’d say the Red Sox are getting a fairly decent return for sticking with him.

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by daver on Jun 10, 2009 2:23 PM CDT reply actions

At his current price

Ellsbury is good for the Sox. And he’s shown flashes of being more than a .700 guy. I’d keep sticking with him.

For the record, I'm glad the Cubs have a high payroll. Does anyone understand why the high payroll is something anyone should complain about?

by DGU on Jun 10, 2009 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions

What I gather from reading this

Trade your CF prospect as soon as he gets real high value. The Cubs need to do this next time the opportunity presents itself.

Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.

by nji232 on Jun 10, 2009 2:29 PM CDT reply actions

I don't think so.

All the other teams were still able to trade their CF prospects with as much bad mileage on them as Pie had. Plus, some of the teams have really had it pay off for them to stick with their prospect. There’s quite a contrast to be seen in Tony LaRussa hitting Rasmus 2nd even while he’s hitting .200 and Lou Piniella publicly humiliating Felix Pie.

For the record, I'm glad the Cubs have a high payroll. Does anyone understand why the high payroll is something anyone should complain about?

by DGU on Jun 10, 2009 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions

Rasmus paid some dividends last night.

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by daver on Jun 11, 2009 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions

What happens in your bedroom...

is your business.

Free Ronny Cedeno

by Kansas25 on Jun 11, 2009 10:52 PM CDT up reply actions

Fine, fine.

But never let it be said that Colby isn’t all man.

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by daver on Jun 12, 2009 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions

Ha. Noted.

Free Ronny Cedeno

by Kansas25 on Jun 12, 2009 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions

Well

I disagree with any questions as to why the Cubs are using both Samardzija and Cashner in starting roles in the minors. They are doing it only for purposes of developing their secondary offerings as well as refining their command of their current major league fastballs (in terms of sheer velocity only).

The only real way to do that in the minor leagues is to allow them to log innings. Minor league bullpen roles tend to go to fringe prospects, usually with one major league average pitch, guys that are trying to resurrect their careers at the major league level or guys that have been determined to be relievers only and have logged innings deemed sufficient for their development. Neither Samardzija nor Cashner fall into these three categories, at the moment anyway, hence why their starting roles.

And let’s face it, neither of these guys were workhorses logging a great deal of innings in college. While I agree that the jury remains out on these guys as fixtures with the big club, I see no problem whatsoever with how they are being handled currently.

Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?

by krummy12 on Jun 10, 2009 2:29 PM CDT reply actions

Ryan Sweeney's start this year is surprising.

He could flat out play coming out of high school, both as an outfielder and as a pitcher. I was surprised when he gave up on pitching.

"Pounding sand since 1982...."

by cubswynn on Jun 10, 2009 2:45 PM CDT reply actions

Right... I saw him pitch in high school...

I thought that he’d make it as a pitcher.

Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.

by IowaCubs- on Jun 11, 2009 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions

Cameron Maybin

Strike-out prone and can’t put the ball in play. Sounds like Felix to me.

Get Peavy already! I want my #44 jersey!

by Cub Style on Jun 10, 2009 2:58 PM CDT reply actions

Maybin's still pretty young.

He might still make it.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 10, 2009 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions

Yea but I'm saying he's very comparable to Pie hitting wise at this point

Get Peavy already! I want my #44 jersey!

by Cub Style on Jun 10, 2009 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions

With Pie being two years older.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 11, 2009 8:15 AM CDT up reply actions

Very interesting that Maybin is mentioned here...

One of the knocks against Jackson is that he strikes out a lot. That’s the theory behind the Yankees passing on him a few picks before the Cubs.

Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.

by IowaCubs- on Jun 11, 2009 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions

i think there is an inherent bias here

when Baseball America is ranking players they’re ranking them by positional value, so CF tends to get a noticeable boost in their rankings in general as its a premier position

secondly, i don’t think its fair to JUST rate these guys based on offensive characteristics. Part of the reason BA is ranking them highly is because of defensive value as well, something you’re not giving much consideration to

by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 10, 2009 3:03 PM CDT reply actions

Good point.

There’s a lot of ways to qualify the value of these CF prospects.

That said, my main point is really basic. And that point responds to this. There is an overreaction and an oversimplification to the Cubs’ frustrations with Felix Pie and Corey Patterson. For one thing, Patterson and Pie had very different career paths with the Cubs. Patterson was rushed, while Pie was over-protected and/or over-coached. Patterson had a measure of success with the Cubs and then was asked to become something he could never be – a lead-off man. Pie never had any offensive success with the Cubs at all.

So, my point is that there are lots of prospects who struggle. The road is rarely as easy as Ryan Braun and Evan Longoria make it look. Often for these prospects to pay off, teams have to show confidence in the player even while he’s struggling.

For the record, I'm glad the Cubs have a high payroll. Does anyone understand why the high payroll is something anyone should complain about?

by DGU on Jun 10, 2009 6:53 PM CDT up reply actions

On the bright side

The Cub drafts can’t get any worse. I hope Jackson works out. He looks like he has a ton of energy, no red flags with an attitude, and it appears he will sign rather quickly according to what has been mentioned.

"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"

by Grockcubs on Jun 10, 2009 3:31 PM CDT reply actions

FWIW

I happen to be friendly with some people that know LeMahieu and likewise, he’ll be an easy sign. He wants out of LSU in the worst way.

Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?

by krummy12 on Jun 10, 2009 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions

I wonder if Fontenot and Theriot...

…have some sort of hazing ritual in store for him.

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by daver on Jun 10, 2009 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions

yeah, they'll teach him how

to get picked off.

i’m so not right

by tim815 on Jun 10, 2009 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions

LSU

Little Slugger Univ….

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Jun 10, 2009 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions

that's

uhhhh…..

good?!?

by tim815 on Jun 10, 2009 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions

What's the story on LeMahieu?

Why does he want out?

by mic on Jun 11, 2009 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions

You, apparently, haven't paid much attention to the way several other NL Central teams draft.

For the record, I'm glad the Cubs have a high payroll. Does anyone understand why the high payroll is something anyone should complain about?

by DGU on Jun 10, 2009 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions

Wilken has been around...

…for a while now and his influence (if as good as advertised) should start paying dividends. If not, it may be time to do a thorough analysis of how they scout, draft and develop young talent.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jun 10, 2009 4:39 PM CDT reply actions

Easy

I just needed to read the words “5 tool player” and “toolsy” to be pessimistic. I don’t want the Cubs to draft this type of players anymore. They should try another type of player. For all the criticism the Cubs received for not playing Pie, now he goes to Baltimore, has the same awful performance and has been benched by a team that has nothing to lose. These are not bad hitters, these are absolutely awful hitters. I’m tired of it frankly.

I don’t think Hendry is a good enough evaluator of hitting talent. He doesn’t have a good track record and he probably chose Wilken because they are probably likeminded. He may have a good track record but I don’t agree with his picks. Colvin seemed a waste of a draft pick from day 1 and it seems that indeed it was. I don’t care if the Cubs draft CF or LF or 1B. I just don’t want more of the “is athletic, may develop power, has speed, strikes out a lot, blah blah blah”. I don’t see any changing in the way this organization is evaluating hitting talent. And history has shown that this way does not produce good hitters. Or do we need another 20 years more to prove it?

by Luis on Jun 10, 2009 6:41 PM CDT reply actions

how many players

in any sport, have simnilar bios to this…..

incredible power. triples speed. very good eye at the plate. great character. line drive machine.

hits 98 on the gun routinely. three plus pitches. change-up is very advanced.

when drafting 31st, you’ll draft a player ‘with holes in his game’. hopefully they are reparable holes, but holes nonetheless.

by tim815 on Jun 10, 2009 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions

I totally disagree.

When you are a big market team, you want to get those high-ceiling prospects, even if you end up only batting .240 on their success rate. The Cubs can afford to sign mid-tier talent. But the top-tier talent, in its prime is not often available. Yes it’s frustrating to strike out so often with those prospects, but lots of mid-tier prospects strike out, too.

“5-tool player who strikes out a lot” describes Grady Sizemore and Curtis Granderson. Just because we have had prospects who didn’t reach their ceiling doesn’t mean we should lower our sights and just try and draft the next Coco Crisp and the next Marlon Byrd, just because they’d be less likely to disappoint.

For the record, I'm glad the Cubs have a high payroll. Does anyone understand why the high payroll is something anyone should complain about?

by DGU on Jun 10, 2009 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions

I don't think you get my point

I’m not saying that the Cubs shouldn’t go for high ceiling prospects. I’m just saying that the Cubs are fixated in one type of high ceiling prospects. The are other high ceiling prospects who are not described as toolsy. Agreed?

by Luis on Jun 10, 2009 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions

Yes and usually they gone in the first 10 spots

See Josh Vitters and the Tampa Bay Rays.

by rlpete on Jun 10, 2009 7:52 PM CDT up reply actions

All I'm saying is that

I wished the Cubs gambled on another type of hitter. That’s all. There are other high ceiling high risk prospects that are drafted later who are not of the Patterson/Pie/Colvin mode.

by Luis on Jun 10, 2009 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions

Seriously

I don’t know of one the Cubs could have taken over Jackson. Wheeler doesn’t have the ceiling. After the first few picks, all of the high ceiling guys are going to have holes and nearly are called toolsy anyway.

To illustrate, here are the first round supplemental taken after Jackson and Wheeler that were not catchers:

1. Mathew Davidson (HS, 3B). The draft comments were: “A solid, safe high school Draftee, Davidson is a great kid with solid, if unspectacular, skills across the board.” I could see the comments if the Cubs took him.

2. Kentrall Davis (College, OF). Comments included didn’t follow up his good freshman year in his sophomore year and a comment about raw power. “Raw” sounds a bit toolsy to me.

3. Christopher Owings (HS, 2B). His report makes him sound like a safe scrappy sort of pick.

That was it in the next 17 picks. The point is if you want a high ceiling guy past the first few picks, you are talking toolsy and raw. There aren’t other kinds of high ceiling guys.

by rlpete on Jun 10, 2009 8:21 PM CDT up reply actions

You have to hope...

…the Cubs have learned some lessons over the years, and have adjusted their evaluation process in the draft and even in player development.

The easy part of scouting is recognizing physical tools, because they are there for everyone to see. The trick is identifying those who can take those physical skills, and apply them to what is required to be a good “baseball player”. For quite a while now, the Cubs have struggled to marry these two pieces together, and you end up with an extended period of minimal position player development. I say this, because it is much more difficult to predict a position players future major league success vs a pitcher.

If you look at the vast majority of teams who have been perennial contenders, they have outperformed other organizations when it comes to evaluating more than “physical tools” and they also do a stellar job developing guys once they get them in their system.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jun 11, 2009 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions

That's it, plus

To me ability to make contact and draw walks are also tools, even though they are not traditionally considered as such.

I thought Hendry had learned some lessons but the Miles signing this winter evaporated very fast. If we fans can recognize talent better talent better than our organization that is a very bad sign. The guy has never hit and last year he just had more luck than usual in BAbip. Yet Hendry was talking about hitting late in the game or hitting in day games, without having the slightless clue that these splits are usually not interpretable because of sampling issues and lack of predicitiveness of future performance. I think he still doesn’t get it.

It make have taken Hendry 20 years to learn the value of OBP, but the statistical analysis of players in today’s game is so much more advanced than that 1 statistic that he will always be behind. And I still think he doesn’t understand why Patterson or Pie have failed, because he is enamoured with these types of players. Except for last year (and discounting the playoffs) Hendry hasn’t shown an ability to contruct a good offensive ballclub. I’m not very optimistic that things will change in the future. His signing of Soriano has hurt this team a lot (yet another toolsy type), even if a lot of people don’t realize. And it will only get worse with time.

by Luis on Jun 11, 2009 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions

Baseball is unique...

…and it is the one sport, where physical tools translate the least into onfield performance. This is especially true when it comes to a certain task which happens to be the most difficult thing to do in sports – hitting a baseball!

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jun 11, 2009 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions

It is indeed the most difficult thing to do, no doubt about it

by Luis on Jun 11, 2009 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions

So, you want high-ceiling prospects

without tools?

For the record, I'm glad the Cubs have a high payroll. Does anyone understand why the high payroll is something anyone should complain about?

by DGU on Jun 10, 2009 7:52 PM CDT up reply actions

Hey, whatever

I believe I’ve made my point pretty clear. If you think that translated to “high-ceiling prospects without tools”, good for you. I’m quite sure you’ve seen that not all the players with tools (or hitting ability) are described as “toolsy”.

by Luis on Jun 10, 2009 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions

Brett Jackson

was born the same week the lights went on at Wrigley. Pie and Patterson can’t say that.

So there.

DEJESUS!!!

by tomas21 on Jun 10, 2009 8:30 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs

Very Nice Post

rec’d

I sit at home after the Cubs lose and wanna pound sand but I know I live in a state without that kinda land. I know in my heart Sori isn't a guess hitting hack and that Dero will never be back. Pitching is King, some do say and hopefully Aaron Miles doesn't play in a Cub uniform another day. By October this I know, to the playoffs we are for sure to go. Go Cubbies!!

by cubsluver22 on Jun 10, 2009 8:34 PM CDT reply actions

Screw Felix Pie...I hope he fails and gets released by Baltimore

I’m still mad about him not giving kids and me an autograph when I went to a AAA game in New Mexico a few years back.

by aznsensation on Jun 10, 2009 9:06 PM CDT reply actions

I'm still mad at him for not panning out

Get Peavy already! I want my #44 jersey!

by Cub Style on Jun 10, 2009 10:32 PM CDT up reply actions

Why be mad at him?

I’m sure he’d rather be successful than not. It’s not as if Pie was unwilling to work or had a bad attitude.

For the record, I'm glad the Cubs have a high payroll. Does anyone understand why the high payroll is something anyone should complain about?

by DGU on Jun 10, 2009 11:02 PM CDT up reply actions

It was a joke

maybe I should have said that in the description box.

Get Peavy already! I want my #44 jersey!

by Cub Style on Jun 12, 2009 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions

The Cubs are no worse than other teams...

… are they as far as prospects turned to bust? The Sox have been as bad, virtually every high pitching prospect is worthless.

If Pie was a flop, that has little or bearing in my mind about the current crop.

"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009

by DrCrawdad on Jun 10, 2009 10:41 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs

I don't understand this thread

Are we supposed to find some strange solace in the fact that Corey Patterson and Felix Pie aren’t the only centerfield prospects who have turned up bust?!? It is absolutely NOT acceptable that the “top” positional prospects within the Cub system continue to FAIL. This is a scathing indictment of the Cub organization and it’s scouting, drafting and player development processes.

by BLou on Jun 10, 2009 11:09 PM CDT reply actions

What exactly is your argument?

Before injuries, the Cubs intended to play home-grown players at C, SS, & 2B, with the top bat off the bench also being a product of the farm. All four of those players projected to give us above-average production, and it looks like we’ll get that from 3/4 of them by season’s end. Plus, we’ve added another top bench bat from the farm. Yes, a bench bat does have value, even if we are all frustrated that he can’t field. That’s all in addition to having the wealth of homegrown pitching the 25-man roster is employing.

So, are you wanting to argue that the Cubs system is bad? It’s not the greatest. No one is arguing that. But it has been productive, including in the position player arena.

As for what my argument has been – it’s simple. There’s always a lot of projection in these toolsy CF prospects who are hyped, and so there’s always risk, too. It’s absurd to expect to develop them every time. It’s absurd to expect to develop them without hiccups. It’s the height of absurdity to think that Brett Jackson is doomed to failure because he’ll be a LH Cub prospect who plays CF.

For the record, I'm glad the Cubs have a high payroll. Does anyone understand why the high payroll is something anyone should complain about?

by DGU on Jun 11, 2009 12:31 AM CDT up reply actions

Heavens to mergatroid

Do you mean to tell me that you are going to defend the Cub player development system by bringing up the example of Geovany Soto, Ryan Theriot, Mike Fontenot, Micah Hoffpauir and Jake Fox ?!?!?

Soto? Previous to 2007 he was essentially a non-prospect. Then all of a sudden he explodes on the scene for two years prior to reverting back to his old awful fat non-major league self in 2009 (and to think some actually scratch their heads when the steroid thing is mentioned).

Theriot? While a great story, fact is Theriot was a marginal at best prospect who arrived on the major league scene at a relative late age and seized opportunity under the banner of “over-achiever.”

Fontenot? Shades of the Theriot story, only even older when he first arrived and best classified as a role player and not a suitable everyday option.

Hoffpauir? Another aging minor leaguer who wasn’t on the prospect radarscope and now at the age of 29 is tasting a marginal degree of success.

Fox? Yet another marginal at best oldish prospect but who has the incapability to play the field.

===

You’re going to use those 5 names as wondrous defense of the Cub minor league system and it’s ability to scout, sign and develop quality positional talent?!? Please.

by BLou on Jun 11, 2009 7:27 AM CDT up reply actions

In fact two other farm system products- Randy Wells and Carlos Marmol

were brought here to be catchers. So that was a fail as well. Now of course moving them to pitcher has worked out ok.

Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.

by nji232 on Jun 11, 2009 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions

So is the best move for Soto...

to the mound?

by mic on Jun 11, 2009 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions

Absolutely--that and designated bunter.

n/t

by DudeVf11 on Jun 12, 2009 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions

once again, I ask

when did you sour on Ryan Theriot? Last year — even earlier this year — he was the sparkplug, the heart of the team, better than people thought.

by drewishdrewid on Jun 11, 2009 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions

I didn't sour on Ryan Theriot

Reading is fundamental Drewishdrewid. What I stated is that Theriot was a marginal prospect at best who arrived on the major league scene at a relatively late age and seized opportunity. Yes, he is an over-achiever type. Yes, he is an asset to the Cubs.

by BLou on Jun 11, 2009 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions

reading IS fundamental.

As in, you reading this comment I posted back on June third. You used to be high on Ryan Theriot. Check it out.

Fontenot and Theriot were never really considered legitimate prospects. Rather they are both guys who broke into the majors late and who can best be classified as over-achievers who capitalized on opportunity. Fontenot and Theriot were never in the plans of the Cubs until each forced the issue. (http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2009/5/5/865591/chris-carpenter-should-have-been#15296236)

Ryan Theriot is a major asset on the Cubs. Not just an asset, but yes a MAJOR asset. And I just love how the critics like to compare him to David Eckstein and Craig Counsell, two players who were major integral parts to two World Series Championship teams each. And the thing is Theriot is actually a better hitter than Eckstein or Counsell ever were at the zenith of their major league existence. (http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2009/4/23/850940/ryan-theriots-lack-of-skills#14652018)

Ryan Theriot has made me a believer He’s a darn good baseball player. Not only is he one of the smartest hitters in this lineup, but he knows how to play situational ball better than anybody outside of Aramis Ramirez. His defense at shortstop is also better than his critics suggest. (http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2009/4/23/850940/ryan-theriots-lack-of-skills#14651151)

Time to put an end to the Ryan Theriot bashing. Theriot continues to be a distinct asset on this ballclub and unselfishly performs for this team. He is the best Cub at executing in game situations. And his defense is decent enough. (http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2009/4/13/832947/reed-johnson-does-it-again-and#14088977)

I used to be cynical of Theriot. But not anymore. Theriot delivers in whatever role he is asked to fill and has become a catalyst for this offense and is arguably the best player on this roster at “executing” in game situations. He also is a decent shortstop. Not great by any stretch, but certainly makes the plays he needs to make. (http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2009/4/10/830110/theriot-fielding-tracking#14083491)

Theriot? Once again, Theriot is serving as a catalyst to this offense and consistently delivering in whatever role he has in the lineup. Cub fans need to be less cynical of Theriot. The guy plays the game the right way and contributes. (http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2009/4/9/827956/worried-about-the-cubs-offense#13913571)

So I ask again, if he was a catalyst, if he consistently delivered, if he was THE MAN… what happened?

Will you reply this time? You didn’t, last time.

by drewishdrewid on Jun 11, 2009 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions

by drewishdrewid on Jun 11, 2009 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions

Searching a BCB member's posts, isn't that a banning offense here?

by DrCrawdad on Jun 11, 2009 8:42 PM CDT up reply actions

Really, Drew, if you don't want to provoke him, why do you do this?

I’ve advised you to ignore him. I still think that’s good advice.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 11, 2009 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions

I'm asking

a legitimate question. This isn’t me “responding to every post he makes”, which, of course, I never did in the first place.

I want to know where his Theriot love went. At the beginning of the season, it seems like he thought Riot was the best player on the team.

by drewishdrewid on Jun 11, 2009 9:16 PM CDT up reply actions

What is your point drewishdrewid?

BLou is commenting on the Cubs farm system and inability to develop young players. All he was saying was that Theriot is an older role player who emerged late out of a system that is supposed to develop and prepare players for the Major League as quickly as possible.

The disdain for each other is obvious, but to a reader, you seem to be trying to pick an argument all the time.

by mic on Jun 11, 2009 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions

sorry if you feel that way.

However, I see a distinct change in the way BLou regards Ryan Theriot. Last year, when he was MBDNIU, and earlier this year, he was high on Riot like a kite.

I just want to know the reason for the change.

by drewishdrewid on Jun 12, 2009 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions

Knowing him as you do...

… you know you won’t get an answer. Your posts seem designed to provoke him. Better idea: leave it sit. Everyone knows the truth.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 12, 2009 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions

Mike Fontenot is not a Cubs farm system product.

He was acquired in a major league trade. Thus, he’s a product of the system that traded him — in this case, Baltimore’s.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 11, 2009 8:16 AM CDT up reply actions

You're getting at one of the issues here.

We can say a number of different things about the Cubs’ farm system. We can talk about their identification and drafting. We can also talk about the development of players in system. When it comes to the id and drafting, Fontenot counts under Baltimore’s tab. But some of his devlopment came under Cub coaching.

So, when BLou above points out Theriot being a marginal prospect – yes, Theriot was never a major prospect, but his development is something the Cubs should get some credit for.

I think the Cubs have a poor record of identifying and drafting hitters, but their recent record of development, especially when you consider the problem with drafting, is a good one. And, yes, Fox, Soto, Fontenot – they all are points in favor of the Cubs’ hitting development.

For the record, I'm glad the Cubs have a high payroll. Does anyone understand why the high payroll is something anyone should complain about?

by DGU on Jun 12, 2009 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions

By the way... I don't want the next Pie...

I just want the next Fukudome. Good defense, good OBP, solid doubles’ power, OK speed… I think we potentially accomplished those things in drafting Jackson.

Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.

by IowaCubs- on Jun 11, 2009 10:45 AM CDT reply actions