You be the GM. Trade Harden, and acquire a bat to win this division.
by SackMan on Jun 15, 2009 11:04 AM CDT
320 comments
I don't know what the long term plans are for Rich Harden, but if the Cubs aren't going to give him a new contract... then deal him now.
This division is clearly up for grabs... nobody's playing well right now, and at .500, the Cubs are a laughable 2.5 games out of 1st place. With the team constructed the way it is, it'll be a miracle for the Cubs to stay within 2.5 games until Aramis Ramirez comes back at the All-Star break.
We have a wealth of pitching right now. For those of you who haven't been paying attention, the stats below show how the Cubs stack up by the numbers in the most significant pitching categories. Unfortunately... we can't hit the ball worth a damn. We rank #27 in runs scored, and #26 in batting average. Our team leaders in RBIs have just 27 (DLee & Soriano tied). To put that in perspective, there are 110 players in MLB with more RBIs than Lee & Soriano.
Something has to be done... and with the way the roster is constructed, it needs to be done up the middle of the infield.
The Yankees, Phillies, Rangers, and Angels are all contenders who need pitching help. Now, I have no disillusions here... nobody's gonna trade Cano, Utley, Kinsler or Figgins for Harden. But, he's our best trade bait. We need to sign him, or move him.
A more realistic target might be Dan Uggla... who may be hitting a mere .220 right now, but has driven in 40 runs already. With the way Aaron Miles is butchering second base, Uggla's defense is about equal. The Marlins aren't in a position to add Harden's salary, but they may want to get out of Uggla's contract for prospects, if we can make the numbers work. Then, you can re-load on prospects by dealing Harden to a contender, and keeping the payroll about where it is.
So, I'm asking you guys to play GM today... on an off-day. Make us a deal.
MLB Team Pitching Stats (ESPN)
ERA
1. LA Dodgers 3.57
2. San Francisco 3.61
3. Seattle 3.74
4. Chicago Cubs 3.82
5. Cincinnati 3.89Quality Starts
1. Chicago Cubs 38
2. Colorado 37
3. Pittsburgh 36
4. Arizona 36
5. Minnesota 34Runs Allowed
1. San Fransisco 233
2. LA Dodgers 240
3. Chicago Cubs 245
4. Seattle 265
5. Cincinnati 266Earned Runs Allowed
1. San Fransisco 220
2. LA Dodgers 228
3. Chicago Cubs 229
4. Seattle 235
5. Cincinnati 245Batting Average Against
1. LA Dodgers .235
2. Chicago Cubs .238
3. Milwaukee .245
4. San Fransisco .246
5. Cincinnati .249
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Eh
He’s a good hitter. Not so sure the Marlins would want him, considering his (IIRC) 9 mil owed would be about a fourth of their pay roll.
Don’t shoot me….but how about Brian Roberts?
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Jun 15, 2009 11:08 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The Roberts talk will no doubt pop up again...
But, we need a run producer. And, we already have a leadoff hitter, who stubbornly isn’t going to be moved anywhere else in the order.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jun 15, 2009 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You could bat him second...
And I think he’d be almost as effective for awhile. Watching some Orioles games though, I see just a hint of decline. I’d stay away. This looks like a Michael Young-like situation just waiting to happen.
by Damen Jackson on Jun 15, 2009 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't think that it's going to
he signed a extension before this year.
bo$$
by lexmarklover on Jun 15, 2009 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I know it's overpaying...
But Jose Ascanio and Neal Cotts for Russell Branyan would make me very happy.
by Damen Jackson on Jun 15, 2009 11:19 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Branyan would be a nice peice to have right now...
He could play 3rd, while Aramis is out. But, Seattle is in a similar situation. They’re pitching well, but can’t hit. I doubt they would trade away on of their top run producers. Especially at his cheap $1.4 mil salary this year.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jun 15, 2009 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My thought
Is that they wouldn’t attempt to shelve their rebuilding plan by attempting to hang on to guys like Branyan, Batista, and Washburn. I could be wrong, but I expect to see them capitulate soon.
by Damen Jackson on Jun 15, 2009 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who is Branyon blocking?
He’s so cheap… and he’s leading their team in a number of offensive categories.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jun 15, 2009 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know their system well enough...
to speak to their depth chart offhand, but that’s not what I meant. I meant I expect them to deal, regardless of their situation. Branyan is going to have enough of a year to justify a multi-year, which I don’t see them agreeing to. But if they let him walk, he may not have the stats to get them a sandwich pick.
This is exactly the kind of guy you want to trade high on, and I’d think they’d do that, rather than trying to make a run this season.
by Damen Jackson on Jun 15, 2009 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whenever I see your name, SackMan, I can’t help but think of this awesome music video.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 15, 2009 11:20 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Weird timing, I just heard that song
When I saw the Amazing Jonathan in Vegas, he played it before he came on stage while a camera scanned the crowd and zoomed into one person at a time making funny jokes about them. Funny stuff
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
by jkobus on Jun 15, 2009 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL.
That dude’s freaky lookin.
Here’s where my name comes from:
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jun 15, 2009 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Given Harden's history of frailness...
I consider what we’ve gotten out of him to be almost a miracle and any team taking him in a trade would naturally discount some of his worth because of it. I don’t see anyone giving up a bat worth much.
And please no to Dan Uggla.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jun 15, 2009 11:27 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think I will always hold a grudge against Dan Uggla
After that miserable showing at the All-star game last year.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
by jkobus on Jun 15, 2009 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
1 game?
Harsh.
What did it hurt the Cubs?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 15, 2009 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well at the time it could have.
FIRE VDN
by gocubs526 on Jun 15, 2009 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And that's reason to hold a grudge?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 15, 2009 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that wasnt me
but i was really pissed. There is 10 other reasons i wouldnt want Uggla
FIRE VDN
by gocubs526 on Jun 16, 2009 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know it wasn't you, but you were kind of supporting the original poster
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 16, 2009 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
At this point
holding a grudge against a player for costing the Cubs home field advantage in the World Series makes about as much sense as holding a grudge against unicorns.
by Orval Overall on Jun 16, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No matter what you say...
…I’ll never forgive that one unicorn for carrying away Matt Murton.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 16, 2009 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Folgers IS good cooking
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 16, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
again it wasnt me but i could see y someone could have
and its not just the cubs. I have a hatred towards the AL so i don’t like when the NL losses to them.
FIRE VDN
by gocubs526 on Jun 16, 2009 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trade Derrek Lee and Rich Harden for prospects
That’s what any sane GM would do. I don’t care if we are “only” 3 games out of 1st place or whatever it is. This is not a good ballclub, period. It is time to begin a full-scale rebuilding process.
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
by BLou on Jun 15, 2009 11:33 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Trade away D. Lee?
The only person on this team that has shown some offensive capabilities. I dont see the logic.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
by jkobus on Jun 15, 2009 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
BLou is suggesting give up on the season and rebuild
by SouthernCub on Jun 15, 2009 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
if
you’re talking about rebuilding, seems like Marmol would fetch a good price and his contract is up as well.
by neifi on Jun 16, 2009 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He also would make a great closer for US down the road
So why dump him?
by Orval Overall on Jun 16, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree with you, but...
…our window is what, 3-4 years including last year? I have a hard time justifying slamming that window shut prematurely. In 4 years this team is going to look nothing like 2008s or 2009s team.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 15, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heck this team hardly resembles the team from 2007
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Jun 15, 2009 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the 2011 season...we will have:
Zambrano*
Soriano*
Aramis
Dome
Samardzija (WTF?)
Dempster*
- = signed through 2012, too
Team is gonna look very, very different after this year, too, with guys like Gregg, Marmol, and Theriot all up for grabs.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 15, 2009 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Note:
Pulled from Cot’s, the awesomest contact website ever.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 15, 2009 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Of course that is thinking that Samardzija will actually make it
Which I don’t think is as likely anymore.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Jun 15, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would imagine that there will be an effort to keep Theriot around
Marmol I don’t know.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Jun 15, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just for posterity's sake:
Contracts up after 2009:
Harden
Gregg
Freel
Reed
Heilman
Cotts
Fox
Marmol
Soto
Theriot
Koyie
Marshall
Fontenot
Guzman
Micah
Ascanio
Wells
Fox redux
Blanco
Patton
Scales
Waddell
Some other guys that aren’t on the roster right now, too.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 15, 2009 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re-sign Cotts!
Ha, just kidding. That’s a pretty long list. Should be an interesting off-season.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I keep:
Harden
Reed
Marmol
Soto
Marshall
Ascanio
Wells
And either Riot or LBR
Let the rest of ’em go.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 15, 2009 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No Guzman?
I might keep Fontenot, too. Depends on how the rest of his season goes.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They'll keep both...
Guzman has shown enough to earn a bullpen job for next year. It doesn’t make sense not to offer him arbitration and pay the ~$750k to keep him.
Fontenot is not even arbitration eligible and has proven he’s a very capable backup 2B at the very least (possibly even a very solid starter). It doesn’t make sense not to pay him the ~$500k to keep him.
by SouthernCub on Jun 15, 2009 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm. how do you prioritize this list?
Harden
Wells
Marmol
Soto
Marshall
Theriot
Micah
Ascanio
Guzman
Jake Fox
???
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jun 15, 2009 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can see
Harden and Gregg going. Freel, certainly. Heilman almost absolutely. Cotts may be DFAd before the end of the year. One of these Fox is Chad, who will retire, and the other is Jake, who is a DH. Both gone. I can see them keeping Marmol, Soto, Riot, Hill, Marshall. Maybe Fonty. Probably Guz. Maybe Hoffpauir. They’ll let Ascanio go, keep Wells, keep Blanco, keep Patton, keep Scales, keep Waddell.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, except
Why would they get rid of Ascanio? Do you think they will use him as trade bait? he has shown a lot over the last few weeks, IMO.
"Respect" ~ Ryne Sandberg
by gwood on Jun 15, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Alright
I’ll refrain from the suggestion, pending his performance for the rest of the year. Hear me, Hendry?!? :P
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I may be overvaluing Ascanio...
…but if he can keep striking guys out, Guzman can stay consistent and Marmol can right the ship and keep it righted (?), those three could become Lou’s Nasty Boys Redux.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Three guys throwing the ball with their velocity, that’s a nice bullpen to have.
I really like that Guzman has started throwing a cutter. Maybe he could turn into a slightly less good Rivera with it :)
"Respect" ~ Ryne Sandberg
by gwood on Jun 15, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention the movement they have
I mean if it was just fast, they wouldn’t do well. I mean even Aaron Miles can hit a straight fastball.
Get Peavy already! I want my #44 jersey!
by Cub Style on Jun 16, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno why we would get rid of Harden.
Pitching is a clear strength of this team. His ERA+ last year was 252. 252!! He’s only on for $7M this year, which isn’t very much at all for a pitcher of that quality. Granted, he threw 80 IP last year, but he feels like our trump card in our back pocket, just waiting to bring it out when we need him. I’d love to keep him for another few years. He’s not slowing down. And I don’t really think he was injured this last month, I think it was a DL move more for practicality reasons, and pre-cautions, not cuz he was actually hurt.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 15, 2009 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
His ERA+ THIS year is 97.
You still want him?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Jun 15, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes.
It’s the first year Harden has had anything LOWER than a 100 ERA+. And I’m not certain a 49 IP is a full sample size for this guy quite yet. He’s still striking out a hellva lot of guys, and his SO/BB is still very good. He’s giving up too many homers, that’s why it looks bad right now, IMO.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 15, 2009 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think i remember seeing some where
that he was near the top of HR/FB
by Glacier on Jun 15, 2009 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it'll come down to money...
If he’s going to get $10+ million per year, that’s too much for his injury risk. If that’s the case, the team will let him go and let Wells, Marshall, and Samardzija compete for the 4th and 5th starter spots.
by SouthernCub on Jun 15, 2009 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
funny how people would be willing to pay that for Wood...
a bullpen arm
by Glacier on Jun 15, 2009 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Marshall and Wells
pitched at least as well as he has so far. Trading Harden gives us payroll room.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2009 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess.
I just really like the ace in our pocket. He’s one of the top 5 pitchers in baseball for 70-100 IP. And I really like how management has treated Rich since he’s been here, I think we’ve done a real good job of that. I have more confidence in 70-100 IP of Harden than I do in most 200 IP guys.
And why can’t we manage Milton Bradley like we do Harden? I don’t get it. Hmph.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 15, 2009 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you don't manage
position players the way you manage pitchers, for one thing.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2009 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Milton Bradley plays like a pitcher.
Hell, Carlos Marmol appeared in 82 games last year. Milton Bradley has appeared in less than 82 games 3 seasons.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 15, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is an extremely depressing stat
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
by jkobus on Jun 15, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Especially starting pitchers...
With starters, you can spot start when necessary and take advantage of off days to minimize the damage of resting a player.
Another big difference is the type of injury you’re managing. With Harden, you’re avoiding wearing down as much as anything.
With Bradley, his injuries are the sudden variety – not wearing down. You have to play him to get his value, and whenever you play him you risk injury. You can’t really avoid the bad outcomes by resting him more.
by SouthernCub on Jun 15, 2009 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2009 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Milton
Maybe they should put an exercise bike in the dugout for him between innings.
by ChiefT on Jun 16, 2009 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Someone would just take a bat to it.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 16, 2009 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So he can get injured OFF the field?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 16, 2009 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Soto
needed the exercise, not Milton.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is a gamble
Without Harden the team could still have a strong rotation assuming Wells keeps pitching like he has been. Marshall would move back into the rotation where he does a serviceable job, but it leaves them with Waddell as the only lefty in the pen. But if dealing Harden can get them a hitter to jump start the offense, it is a deal they should consider, because if they can get half of their hitters back on track, they would lead the division. .
by lookingdeadred on Jun 16, 2009 7:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a bit misleading...
as many of those guys are still the property of the Cubs based on the MLB salary structure. Technically, pre-arbitration players have one-year deals, so they look like free agents. But in reality, they remain the property of the team (who can decide to retain them or let them go).
So guys like Theriot, Marshall, Fontenot, Guzman, Hoffpauir, Ascanio, Wells, Fox, Patton (if he lasts the year), Soto, and Marmol are all still Cubs property. Their costs are going to be more or less a given for next year. The only question will be whether or not the team tries to extend some of them to buy out their arbitration years.
Guys like Freel, Johnson, Cotts, Gregg, Harden, and Heilman will likely be gone, though.
by SouthernCub on Jun 15, 2009 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, sorry.
I wrote right below this post that all I did was write who’s contracts were up after 2009. I don’t fully understand the contract structures of MLB. If you have a source that can help me understand this a bit better, I’d appreciate it.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 15, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here are a few sites...
http://mlbplayers.mlb.com/pa/info/faq.jsp#arbitration
http://baseball.suite101.com/article.cfm/how_baseball_arbitration_works
http://www.purplerow.com/2009/2/26/770663/mlb-transactions-part-four
Basically, for the first 2-3 years of a player’s MLB service time, the player gets paid a one-year deal at the league minimum (unless the guy is a bonus baby like Samardzija who has an MLB contract already). The club can simply choose to re-up for another year.
After three years (or for a select group of high-service time two-year guys), the player becomes arbitration eligible. At this point, the team still has his rights as long as they offer arbitration. Again, the contracts are one-year deals, with the club retaining the players rights. Arbitration-eligible players make more money with more experience/performance. The specific amount depends on the amount of experience and the overall performance of the player.
After six years, the player can become a free agent. A lot of teams “buy out” the arbitration years of players in their early years (like Pedroia, Crawford, Baldelli, etc). The idea is that they pay more money up front to save money in the later arbitration years and to get a few years beyond the six years. The benefit to the player is security (guaranteed money for several years regardless of performance).
by SouthernCub on Jun 15, 2009 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, thanks SC.
I appreciate it. MLB contract rules remind me of doing my taxes. I don’t understand a lick of ’em.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 15, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No problem..
the MLB salary rules are indeed quite complicated.
by SouthernCub on Jun 15, 2009 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
half of those guys
are arb eligible….
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 15, 2009 8:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Theriot would be up for grabs?
I thought he simply becomes arb eligible along with Marmol and Fontenot?
by ak123 on Jun 15, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh…..er….I dunno? I just pulled contracts that expire after 2009. Honestly, I don’t understand arbitration and complicated baseball FAs and waivers very well. It sounds like you know more than I do.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 15, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I might
I just remember from years past.
Guys like Soto, Theriot, Fontenot, Marmol, etc will all be resigned. The guys who are arb eligible will probably get a raise from 500K to a million or 2 which I think for the most part they deserve.
Unless they physically signed a deal for x amount of years (take Lilly for 4 years) they will be back next year.
by ak123 on Jun 15, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup...
only Cotts, Chad Fox, Freel, Gregg, Harden, Heilman, and Johnson are for sure free agents. I’d expect all of those guys to be gone after this year. Harden may be the exception, but only if his injury history holds his salary down).
Those other guys who don’t have a ton of MLB service time are either pre-arbitration or arbitration-eligible, and must remain with the Cubs if the Cubs so choose. The only question will be whether the team decides to let someone go (like Scales, Hill, or Blanco) due to a roster numbers game.
by SouthernCub on Jun 15, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually I think Johnson will be back
I think the Cubs need him as extra insurance if Soriano or Bradley gets hurt. Plus he has great defense and can probably be signed cheaper than any other free agent outfielder.
by ak123 on Jun 15, 2009 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I completely disagree
Our division is up for grabs… and our window as a veteran team is closing quickly. Go for broke. Win the division, and you’re in. Anything can happen after that. The Cardinals won the word series a few years back with one of their junkiest teams.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jun 15, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I won't delude myself about this Cub team any longer
The window to win a World Series has already been slammed shut. With the hugeness of this payroll and all the ugly back-loaded contracts combined with a lousy farm system you damned straight a begin a full-blown rebuilding process NOW. Don’t sit there and use the rationalization of the 2006 St. Louis Cardinals.
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
by BLou on Jun 15, 2009 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One question for you
Do you 100% believe that they can not win this division this year?
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
by jkobus on Jun 15, 2009 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder how many Cardinals fans
said the exact same thing in June of 2006.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2009 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope you're standing up...
…because you weren’t supposed to sit there and say this.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was just looking at SWL's picture of headphone girl.
you’ll have to forgive me for not arisi— I mean, standing up.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2009 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, that made me LOL.
Well done, good sir.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 15, 2009 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
also
how do you rebuild a team where the most expensive and currently un-tradable pieces have NTCs anyway?
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2009 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would be like trying to rebuild a team on...sand.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you gotta pound it
so that it stays flat and solid.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
this should help:
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jun 15, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bend. Over.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
or stand on a stool.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You just....
Want the Cubs to rebuild so you can have a fresh group of players to bash and hate on.
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
by HIGGY on Jun 15, 2009 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll admit to being pretty demoralized for much of the last month or so.
But, seriously, no GM is going to do this when his team sits only 2.5 games out in mid-June. Hendry at least needs to see whether the offense will pick up when Aramis gets back and whether Milton can stay healthy long enough to go on a hot streak.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention that if you put up the white flag in this town, while just 2.5 games out.
You’ll be executed.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jun 15, 2009 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Executed?
Williams over there on the south side did pretty much what you said could never happen a few years back and he still has a job.
by lookingdeadred on Jun 16, 2009 7:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope. Ron Schueler made that trade.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 16, 2009 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow...
I happen to be one of the few evidently who at least respect your views. Actually, they’re often insightful. But this comment is just silly, and not mired at all in reality.
Why any team with playoff aspirations would sell, in June and 2.5 games out, is beyond me.
by Damen Jackson on Jun 15, 2009 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly...
The Astros believe they’re still in it and aren’t likely to “sell” anytime soon either, no reason the Cubs should.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Jun 15, 2009 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't agree
I think we’re lucky enough to be in the position to still win the division.
I’m not a moron, I know that when A-Ram comes back he’s not going to hit .350 all year. However, his bat in the lineup replaces a deficient one.
It’s not always the best team that wins the World Series, it’s the team that’s playing the best at the moment and there’s no reason for me not to think the Cubs can’t be that team.
We have every right to compare Cubs to 2006 Cardinals because well if that’s all it takes to win the World Series, then awesome!
by ak123 on Jun 15, 2009 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wow!
Nicely said on all points.
You forgot the good pitching part of winning the World Series. We got that too.
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
by HIGGY on Jun 15, 2009 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't count pitching
Because any ace can have a bad game in October. See Sabathia for that.
by ak123 on Jun 15, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you were going to trade DLee...
(even though he has a Full no trade clause)
It should have been done this offseason and Texeria signed. That would have made sense. Trading him now – does not make sense.
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
by HIGGY on Jun 15, 2009 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
1) Lee is the only one consistently hitting the ball
2) Lee has an NTC that he’s shown no inclination to waive.
So any sane GM wouldn’t try to trade Lee, because it’s pointless.
1 game back in the loss column is NOT the time to start rebuilding.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2009 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh
With this club’s history of developing “prospects”, I want no part of a fire sale.
by salparadise23 on Jun 15, 2009 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Never happen
They are still in the division race and won’t unload…….plus I think hendry will do what he can to win now because he wants to be the hero to assemble the championship team before his job is up in the air with the change of owners.
by cubsmania on Jun 15, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think this team is a pretty good team that has struggled
Trading your best hitter currently is not a very wise move. I wouldn’t mind trading harden
bo$$
by lexmarklover on Jun 15, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not a good ball club
The team is 2 games back and you want to surrender? Makes no sense. The starting pitching is first rate and the bullpen is showing signs of becoming solid, so that leaves the hitters. This team, which scored the most runs last year, is having trouble scoring runs this year, so either they are in a collective slump and will probably snap out of it based on career numbers, or they have completely forgotten how to hit. Which is more likely?
by lookingdeadred on Jun 16, 2009 7:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another 2B?!?!?
No to Uggla. But yes on the trade Harden for a bat idea.
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
by chilango2 on Jun 15, 2009 11:33 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey...if you could move Aaron Miles somewhere... and get Uggla in return.
That’s about equal defense, and lot more RBIs.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jun 15, 2009 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why not Uggla?
He’s making a half mil this year, and he’s 20 times better than Miles.
bo$$
by lexmarklover on Jun 15, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just because the Cubs have a glut of 2B
Granted, most are of dubious quality, but adding another wouldn’t solve the problem. Uggla is not an “impact bat” and his numbers are considerably down from last year.
But this is just a hypothetical and rhetorical thread, so it’s not a big deal.
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
by chilango2 on Jun 15, 2009 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate his game...
I really do. Uggla hits home runs. That’s it. Defense is shaky. He won’t hit for average. No speed. Given his contract status, he’s more non-tender candidate than anything else.
I’d sooner go get Adam Dunn. At least he’ll take some walks.
by Damen Jackson on Jun 15, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would rather have Uggla starting at second base for the Cubs
than any of the 2nd baseman we have right now. And honestly i think Fontenot is better served when he’s part of a platoon.
bo$$
by lexmarklover on Jun 15, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In that context...
I agree. Here’s the Uggla problem though. Don’t pay for something that you can get for free. If the Marlins want to dump him off for little to nothing, I say fine, go get him Jim. But I wouldn’t pay a premium as 1) he’s not “that guy” that you want to reach for in a trade deadline deal, and 2) I really can see him being non-tendered in the off-season.
As for Fontenot, the more I look, the more I like. I’d be very interested in using him as the first man off the bench on most clubs, especially given that we know he can play acceptably at third. But a starter? On a contender? I think it’s time to move on from that idea.
by Damen Jackson on Jun 15, 2009 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you really think Fontenot's gotten a fair audition as a starter, though?
He’s now appeared in 34 games as a third baseman and only 21 as a second baseman. Maybe I’m making too much of this, but it doesn’t seem fair that a guy who’d never played a lick of third base at the major league level was suddenly stuck there and expected to learn the position and maintain his full focus at the plate.
I know, I know…he’s a pro and should be able to do both. But that’s probably easier said than done, and I still feel that Fontenot has gotten a raw deal this year and may still be an everyday second baseman – or at least one who can play almost every day, perhaps giving way to a RHH replacement against certain tough lefties.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll defer to others....
on what’s fair or not. I looked. I saw. I’ll pass. Just my opinion.
by Damen Jackson on Jun 15, 2009 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK.
Not saying your wrong necessarily. I’m just not ready to give up on him as an everyday or near-everyday player yet.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly
We are a lot more than 1 trade away from being a good offensive team( or even average).
I think we are just going to have to ride this slump out and hope guys start hitting.
by salparadise23 on Jun 15, 2009 11:34 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think we need a Kenny Lofton/
Juan Pierre type of player at the top…
by cozmotaylor123 on Jun 15, 2009 11:40 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Is Ricky Henderson still playing?
by salparadise23 on Jun 15, 2009 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He would come in a heartbeat
if the someone called him, of that I am certain.
BTW, if anyone was wondering, with all the teams he played for, Ricky announced he will be inducted as an Oakland A.
by lookingdeadred on Jun 16, 2009 7:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ricky announced it?
The HoF makes the decision now.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 16, 2009 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ricky really only cares what Ricky thinks
And the HOF isn’t Ricky, so it can’t tell Ricky what hat Ricky will wear.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Jun 16, 2009 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ricky approves that comment
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 16, 2009 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ted Lilly once referred to himself in the third person
Rickey said “Rickey says don’t do that again”
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jun 16, 2009 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ricky Henderson is...
the best Ricky Henderson of Ricky Hendersons in the history of Ricky Hendersons that there ever was…
Ricky Henderson.
by Craig in South Bend on Jun 16, 2009 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Micah Hoffpauir
could be a better Ricky Henderson than Ricky Henderson.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He said he was going in as an Athletic.
But one always has to take what he says with a grain of salt. While he had some gtreat season with the Yankees, his greatest/record-breaking seasons came with Oakland. Also, he is from the Oakland area. He was a darn good high school running back in his day.
by lookingdeadred on Jun 17, 2009 8:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please confirm...
…that you don’t literally mean Kenny Lofton or Juan “BABIP” Pierre.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How did Juan Pierre suddenly become this awesome player to people here?
The man isn’t good. No arm, no real hitting ability, people are just getting sucked into a hot stretch.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Jun 15, 2009 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably because he's had better numbers since Manny got suspended
than most of our players have put up all year. When all you have is a hammer . . .
by madcow256 on Jun 15, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's what I'd do.
Nothing. (Okay, maybe I’d look for relief pitching.)
To be completely honest, this is the team that the Cubs are going to have. And I’m not terribly worried about that. Why? A few reasons:
1. The hitting will regress to the norm. While BABIP doesn’t tell everything about whether or not a player will bounce back, it shows that Geovany Soto, Milton Bradley, and Alfonso Soriano all have BABIPs in the .250s, so I would be willing to wager that they all bounce back and start hitting sometime in the near future. Geo and Bradley have already shown more patience at the plate recently, and I expect Fonzie to break out of the slump he’s going through right now.
2. Aramis Ramirez IS coming back. Not only will Aramis’ return provide more offense to the Cubs lineup, but it will also put Aaron Miles back on the bench (assuming he hasn’t been DFA’d by that point).
3. The pitching is still fantastic. The Cubs have one of the best rotations in the National League right now. Zambrano, Lilly, Dempster, and Harden are all very good pitchers who could be #1 pitchers on other staffs. They’ve been pitching magnificently as of late, and I expect that trend to continue.
4. The rest of the division is fairly mediocre. I’ll admit, the Cardinals and Brewers are both good teams. However, the Brewers don’t really have much pitching behind Yovani Gallardo, and the Cardinals can’t rely on Albert Pujols forever, who is one of two players in their starting lineup who has an OPS+ of over 100 (the other being Colby Rasmus, whose OPS+ is 102). If this were the AL East I would obviously be more concerned, but this is a very winnable division.
If this team is still struggling offensively in the middle of July, I’d consider looking around for another bat. However, I feel that the odds of a team full of very good hitters collectively slumping for another month are very low.
"Those are my principles, and if you don’t like them, well, I have others." - Groucho Marx
by Keith on Jun 15, 2009 11:45 AM CDT reply actions 9 recs
I'm going to rec this...
…if only because it’s so well-written and -organized. For the most part, I agree with you. Baseball is a streaky game – and the arctic cold streaks most Cubs hitters have got to end at some point. Plus, as you mention, no other teams appear capable of running away with this division right now. The Cards and the Brewers have ace-caliber pitchers up top but a whole lotta junk underneath.
That said, I do think Harden is a potentially tradable piece. So it couldn’t hurt to at least explore what options he and a few other lesser players might open up near the trade deadline.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Answer me this though...
You say the hitting will regress to the norm, yet you expect fantastic/magnificent pitching to continue. I realize hitting and pitching are not the same thing yet overall, is there not a flaw in your logic?
I fully expect the pitching to come back down to earth at some point. The only question is how far back down will it come and when. If the Cubs do nothing, they’re taking the gamble that when the offensive slump ends, the increased production will offset an expected decrease in pitching performance. And that offset will be in the plus 4-6 game range.
Personally, I’d make that bet, but I also recognize it is a gamble. A huge gamble if I’m Jim Hendry.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jun 15, 2009 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the starting pitching...
…comes back down to earth, do you really want to be abscent a guy like Harden who can be dominant when healthy?
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Jun 15, 2009 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think there's a flaw in my logic, and this is why.
These pitchers have pitched this well before (except maybe Ted Lilly, who is probably having a career year). The difference between the pitching staff and the offense is that one would expect the Cubs pitching staff to be pitching as well as they are because they’re that good. Are they pitching a bit over their heads? Sure, probably. However they aren’t going to become significantly worse because they are pitching up to expectations.
"Those are my principles, and if you don’t like them, well, I have others." - Groucho Marx
by Keith on Jun 15, 2009 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree with BABIP
The problem with BABIP is that it presumes that every single ball is hit with authority and that batting average in entirely tied to good and bad defensive plays that are viewed as lucky or unlucky. That couldn’t be further from the truth. For example, I’ve seen nearly all of Milton Bradley’s AB’s and while I’m not picking on him, he simply hasn’t hit the ball hard for most of the season. In fact, I’d be willing to guess that he’s broken more bats this season than nearly anyone else in the majors. Weak rollers in the infield and looping fly balls have a tendency to get caught…thus the lower BABIP.
Will his BABIP increase? Probably but only if he starts hitting the ball with authority with consistency. If he doesn’t, betting on a BABIP increase that has a significant effect on the Cubs offense probably is fools gold. If his BABIP increases due to a few more bloopers and bleeders, it’s not going to significantly help this Cubs offense.
Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?
by krummy12 on Jun 16, 2009 8:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trade Harden and a prospect...
to the Nats for Adam Dunn. I think if he just lays down on the ground, he’d have incredible range for a 3B.
Free Ronny Cedeno
by Kansas25 on Jun 15, 2009 11:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
He'd probably have to face left field, though.
I know I wouldn’t want to take a hot shot to the groin – even if I was wearing a cup.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I've learned anything from Bob Barker...
it is this: always spay and neuter your pets. Donkeys included.
Free Ronny Cedeno
by Kansas25 on Jun 15, 2009 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And, he'd still be taller than Fontenot.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jun 15, 2009 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Nats have NO need of Harden
He is an FA next year , they are doing ZILCH this year why in the world would they want his contract and fragile health. If you want to
trade with a non contending team then you have to look at Marshall, Marmol , Wells etc.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 15, 2009 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right...
the only way we move Harden is to a contender. And since contending teams aren’t generally interested in trading away MLB-ready/productive players, that means that the only thing we can get back in a straight deal for Harden would be prospects.
The only way to trade Harden and get back MLB ready players would be a multi-team deal.
by SouthernCub on Jun 15, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only reason the Nationals would take Harden
is to offer him arbitration and let him go, thereby receiving a supplemental pick in the 2010 draft.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jun 15, 2009 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But would that be worth trading away more-ready prospects?
by SouthernCub on Jun 15, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not in my opinion.
But honestly, I have no idea what the Nationals long-term plans are. Some of it I think depends on if Mike Rizzo thinks he’ll be around to run the franchise. If he really wants to blow things up and doesn’t like what he has prospect-wise, I could see him making a move.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jun 15, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I honestly don't see any GM of a losing team trading for Harden...
it’s going to take more a few prospects to get him, and your return isn’t going to be but a few meaningless months of Harden and then a draft pick.
by SouthernCub on Jun 15, 2009 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would agree with that.
It doesn’t make any sense for a losing team to go after him unless they feel that they could resign him in the offseason. A team like Seattle, perhaps, since Harden is from British Columbia and likes the cooler weather in which to pitch, for instance.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jun 15, 2009 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why in the world
would the Nats want a frail pitcher who they won’t sign? Dump money, maybe. Nats have a rotation all starters under 26, they want to keep it that way. Nats will not trade Dunn unless they get useful Prospects.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Jun 16, 2009 7:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought "Dunn laying down on the ground"
would be enough to indicate sarcasm, but obviously not judging from the replies. Dunn could only be had by dealing prospects. And he wouldn’t have a position here anyway.
Free Ronny Cedeno
by Kansas25 on Jun 16, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think
the Nats should announce that Dunn is on the block, AND that they are willing to pay his remaining salary, in exchange for really, really good prospects.
His salary is already a sunk cost, and with all the teams contending, but having budget issues, someone may be willing to give up a couple real gem prospects. Add to that having one of the top pitching and position player prospects of the past decade (assuming Harper is eligible), and they could have a really good nucleus to build around (kind of like the D-Rays model).
DEJESUS!!!
by tomas21 on Jun 16, 2009 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trade Harden or sign him to a three year deal?
Harden is Solid, but he will always have that, WHEN HEALTHY tag next to his name. It would be interesting to see what this team could get in return for Harden. Right now he could ONLY be traded to a contender because of his impending free agency. I can’t imagine any contender wanting to trade a bat that would help this team NOW. You would only get prospects in return.
I would rather the team try to sign Harden to a 2 or 3 year incentive laden deal rather than signing Pedro Martinez (a rumor that keeps rumbling on the net).
by IVYHOPESDreams on Jun 15, 2009 11:48 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
As soon as this season is over we need to be done with Rich Harden
building a pitching staff with guys like him, Prior, and Wood isn’t a good idea.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Jun 15, 2009 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
3 team trade with the Pirates for Freddy Sanchez
We deal Miles, Cotts and Harden. Miles goes to the Pirates with 2 pitching prospects from the Mets. The Mets get Harden & Cotts.
We get Pedro Feliciano and Freddy Sanchez and send Waddell back to Triple A.
I am not saying I am in favor of trading Harden, but I sure would love to get Cotts and Miles out of Cubbie blue.
by Cubsfan Waveland on Jun 15, 2009 11:56 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Now, that's the creativity I was looking for.
As a side note, the Red Sox and Pirates are having conversations about Jack Wilson again.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jun 15, 2009 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The pirates wouldnt want miles
especially if they have to pay his contract.
by cubsmania on Jun 15, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think ANYONE
will want to pay Miles’ contract. We may end up eating that. If he gets us even a single prospect in return, it may be worth it.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2009 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Miles contract isn't that bad
2.2 mil this year, sanchez is making 6.25 mil. I think the Pirates do it and add prospects.
by Cubsfan Waveland on Jun 15, 2009 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you're only looking at dollar amounts, maybe it isn't that bad
When you consider how little value Miles adds over numerous league-minimum AAA types around the league, then you see how atrocious it really is.
by madcow256 on Jun 15, 2009 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, Jim Hendry fell for Miles...
…why can’t Neal Huntington? I mean the guy batted .317 last season! (Miles, I mean. Not Huntington.)
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lets just pray that Neal Huntington doesn't look at any other stats
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Jun 15, 2009 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
the pirates would be better off playing whoever their AAA 2B is.
by cubsmania on Jun 15, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so would the cubs
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Jun 15, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we will trade Harden
And I have gut feeling it’s going to be with the Mets. I don’t know who we’d get in return but I think that’s the trade we’re going to make.
by ak123 on Jun 15, 2009 12:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Hmm...the Mets do need starting pitching.
And if they’re close enough to the Phillies come the trade deadline, they just might bite. I’m not sure offhand who the Cubs could get back either.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't the Phillies
need starting pitching too? The Phils and Mets could fight over Harden, thereby driving up his price.
"Respect" ~ Ryne Sandberg
by gwood on Jun 15, 2009 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As long as it's not Heilman reincarnate, it's all good
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
by chilango2 on Jun 15, 2009 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm... who's that?
Never head of him.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jun 15, 2009 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stevie?
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Jun 15, 2009 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stevie Ire
He got booted last year, because he was a LOOGY. Remember?
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
by chilango2 on Jun 15, 2009 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The one on the DL?
Phillies placed him on it a couple days ago I think.
by ak123 on Jun 15, 2009 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, so he'd play the about same amount for us this year
as he did last year. :)
by madcow256 on Jun 15, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about...
Milton Bradley and Harden for Carlos Beltran.
Somewhat of a Fantasy Baseball trade there.
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
by HIGGY on Jun 15, 2009 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually thought about that too
I know it won’t happen though. They also have an untouchable guy in the minors that they won’t trade.
What’s the upside with Daniel Murphy? I hear a lot of people talking about how much they like him here but I haven’t really seen him play? He can do outfield and 1B right?
by ak123 on Jun 15, 2009 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How many Micah Hoffpauirs do the Cubs need?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 15, 2009 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can he even hit with the power Hoffpauir possesses?
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jun 15, 2009 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of that power
Where has it gone lately? He’s currently only slugging .432.
by madcow256 on Jun 15, 2009 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can anyone?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 15, 2009 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ted Lilly?
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jun 15, 2009 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, sure, but that's an easy answer
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 15, 2009 11:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
True, I took the easy way out.
It’d be nice if Hoffpauir’s power returned sometime soon.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jun 16, 2009 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes. That ball he hit in Houston, though
Would have been a home run just about anywhere else.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 16, 2009 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Minute Maid Park and the Polo Grounds
are the only places I can think of off the top of my head where that ball doesn’t get out.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jun 16, 2009 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"That wouldn't have been out of a lot of parks"
Name one
“Yellowstone”
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 16, 2009 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A quick bit of movie trivia from IMDB.com
In the commercial for the movie [Major League] when it was in the theaters, there was a scene in which Ricky Vaughn, Jake Taylor, and Willy Hays are in the restaurant, and they are discussing a homerun Ricky gave up to a batter. Jake says to Ricky, “That ball wouldn’t have gone out of a lot of parks.” Ricky says, “Name one.” Jakes pauses and says, “Yellowstone.” This scene was omitted from the theatrical release, but was written into the script of Major League II (1994).
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jun 16, 2009 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i would've sworn that was in the original...
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 16, 2009 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would have guessed the original before II, also
Truth be told, I thought it was from Bull Durham.
ML II….what a bad movie that was.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 16, 2009 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it surprised me, too.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jun 16, 2009 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is a starting 2nd baseman
But the Mets are stuck with Castillo at 2nd because of a horendous contract ( sound familiar) So the Mets moved him to left and was horrible. Delagado goes down they move him to first, he has fielded well but has not hit. He by all reports is suppose to be a good hitter.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Jun 16, 2009 7:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently I'm the only person that doesn't want to trade Harden.
Okay so he’s not untouchable if I’m Hendry, but some team would really have to wow me with an offer. I just don’t see that happening.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Jun 15, 2009 12:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The Angels want pitching
Trade for Howie Kendrick, the Angels just sent him down. He has a lot of potential though. Maybe you get something along with Kendrick.
Thoughts?
by Cubsfan Waveland on Jun 15, 2009 12:36 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
We don't really need potential right now...
We need a proven bat.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Jun 15, 2009 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, he's cheap right now ($500k), and only signed through 2009...
…but he really hasn’t panned out as expected. He is an above average defender at every position he’s played (1B, 2B, 3B). Howie is a career .324 OBP, which really isn’t that good. He typically hits 6-7-8, and his career OPS+ is 92. Giving up a guy like Harden for a guy like Howie is a better deal for the Angels, IMO. Right now we need a guy like Adam Dunn, not because Adam Dunn is available, but because we need a proven guy that hits the crap outta baseballs. Not a project. If we want to win this year or next, this is the type of player we need. If not, like Mike said, we need prospects that don’t suck.
Dan
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 15, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would love to have Dunn...
But it’ll never happen. That would basically be Hendry admitting that he messed up this offseason by choosing Bradley over Dunn.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Jun 15, 2009 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just mean a guy like Dunn, not the Lumberjack Himself.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 15, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, the Cubs do still need a backup 3B.
Even after Aramis gets back. Not sure Harden is worth giving up just to build depth. Then again, when you look at how lack of depth has hurt this team…
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's played exactly UNO games at third base.
I thought it was more than that, too.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 15, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, just checked Fangraphs.
He’s a second baseman.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's also not a free agent
I think the Angels are planning on going with him long-term, despite his early struggles.
by SouthernCub on Jun 15, 2009 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just to point out the obvious
The Cubs ARE going to try to win the divison this year. They WILL NOT be sellers unless somthing extremely dramatic happens between now and July 31. If the Cubs even have a hint of winning the division or getting the wild card, they will go for it. I say that partially because of the way Cub economics work as well as the need for Hendry to impress to the new owners whomever that may be.
I wouldn’t be too wrapped up in the dollars angle. Yes, the Cubs probably do not have the ability to bring in a long term contract such as Peavy or Roberts (both of whom can be had), but they could bring in a guy that is making $6/7 M for this year. Prorated, the Cubs would only be on the hook for 1/3 of that amount. (Freddy Sanchez anyone?)
I doubt the Cubs would give up Harden, or any big piece of thier team. It’s a gamble I don’t think they have to take. .
by jerry morales rules on Jun 15, 2009 12:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
We don;t have much value in the famr system, outside of Vitters, to deal.
If we want to deal, and get quality, we’re gonna have to deal a major league arm.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jun 15, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Last year
CC Sabathia went for Matt LaPorta. LaPorta was never a top 10 prospect. In fact he’s around a mid-20’s guy. What I’m saying is that the days of “Victor Zambrano for Scott Kazmir” are over.
Teh Cubs do have some talent in the organizatio to offer. Jay Jackson, Wellington Castilo, and there are others though other people on this board would have better insight than I.
by jerry morales rules on Jun 15, 2009 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The dollars angle is the whole point IMO...
We can’t add anymore salary because of the ownership situation, and Harden’s contract is expiring.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Jun 15, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My point is
that I don’t think that adding $2 or 3M is out of the question. Yes, they can’t do a huge multi year pickup or add $6 or 7 M, but small stuff maybe.
by jerry morales rules on Jun 15, 2009 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Our opinions differ then...
I don’t think they can add any more salary without trading some (ala Harden). But we’ll see what happens…
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Jun 15, 2009 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You may be right
But I find it hard to believe that that is the case. In relation to the total salary, $2/3 M is only 2%.
by jerry morales rules on Jun 15, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why can't you sell a few guys AND try to win?
I think of the REd sox in 04, trading the guy who at the time was the face of the franchise, as soon as they were smart enough to recognize his decline. And guess what? They won the world series. A smart GM can both try to win now and have an eye on the future as well. Trade Harden for a bat, and trade Lee while you can still get something for him. We have other options for 1b that can match Lee’s numbers at this point.
by reedjohnson on Jun 15, 2009 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You'd have to talk Derrek Lee into waiving his NTC.
Could you explain to us how you’d do that? And who are these “matching” options for first base?
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not Hoffpauir.
Does Jake Fox play first?
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that's where he's playing in Iowa now.
Apparently, the Cubs have no intention of even trying him at third.
But the question then becomes: Is Jake Fox really a lock to put a .976 OPS at the major league level? Because that’s what Derrek Lee has done since May 1.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly...
If you go with Hoffpauir/Fox at 1B, you downgrade the defense and probably downgrade the offense. For all of the Hoffpauir love, he’s currently putting up the following stat line: .261/.308/.432 (.740 OPS). And Fox had a nice few AB, but going with a guy who has less than 30 career MLB AB is risky.
by SouthernCub on Jun 15, 2009 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lee has 13 HRs in the past calendar year.
Seriously, Hoff or Fox couldn’t match that? Lee’s a class act, to be sure, but if he’ll waive his NTC and we can get something for him that’ll improve us elsewhere, do it.
by reedjohnson on Jun 15, 2009 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
HR are not the only measure of hitting performance...
Hopefully someday people will figure this out.
by SouthernCub on Jun 15, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And to expand on that thought...
Lee is currently hitting .278/.360/.444 this season. That’s better than what Hoffpauir is doing. And that’s in spite of a horrific start. Since May, he’s OPSed nearly 1.000, with 6 HR in 113 AB.
He was pretty bad in the second half of last year and in April of this year – especially in terms of power. But the power seems to have returned in the past 1.5 months.
Your complaints about Lee had validity up until about mid-May. Now, they seem outdated.
by SouthernCub on Jun 15, 2009 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As SouthernCub has mentioned...
…chicks may dig the long ball, but it should never be the sole measure on which a player is judged. You seem to be ignoring defense, not to mention OBP and a host of other things.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I would add...
…that’s there’s been no indication that DLee is willing to waive his NTC. You’d have to build a pretty strong case for any team you might suggest he depart for.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it didn't take a HR
for Lee to win the game yesterday.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2009 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow amazing how fast you can fall
2 weeks ago – when I was but a single man – everyone wanted to find anyway possible to get hoff into the lineup – now we are getting skiddish – I say if you can trade lee high and not lose drastically in the clubhouse do it. Also what about moving Harden to closer bringing marshall back into the rotation and trade gregg and guzman for a derosa-esque player (see true utility player that can hit .300 with 15-20 homers) or even better – trade all the pitchers except for Lilly and have him pitch 8 innings everyday and then get Chuck Norris to close out the game. WS ring here we come!
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
by hansman1982 on Jun 17, 2009 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All together now . . .
No. Trade. Clause.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 18, 2009 10:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
NTC
You do understand that players with a NTC, like DLee, can be traded, right?
by lookingdeadred on Jun 19, 2009 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do, yes
However, it’s been widely reported that Lee has no desire to waive the clause.
It can be done, but it’s not always easy. And I don’t think that the Cubs are interested in doing so, while they are still in the race and while Lee is basically the only one hitting consistently since May 1.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 19, 2009 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure who would fit the Garciaparra
mold on this team. As discussed, Lee has an NTC and I do think he’s quite useful.
by jerry morales rules on Jun 15, 2009 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Certainly not Nomar himself.
He just got injured ordering a latte at Starbuck’s.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kendrick is not a project in my opinion
The guys is 25 years old, will be 26 this year.
Batting
Last 3 years Team G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
2007 LAA 88 338 55 109 24 2 5 39 9 61 5 4 .322 .347 .450 .796
2008 LAA 92 340 43 104 26 2 3 37 12 58 11 4 .306 .333 .421 .754
2009 LAA 51 186 24 43 7 2 4 22 10 37 6 2 .231 .281 .355 .636
Career 303 1131 147 332 78 7 16 128 40 200 28 10 .294 .324 .417 .
Has anybody ever heard of selling high? (obviously we would have to get something along with kendrick) I want to get value from Harden before he has a big injury, maybe I am gunshy. That is what we would be doing with Harden and I don’t think it really hurts our chances this year.
by Cubsfan Waveland on Jun 15, 2009 12:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
What value does Howie bring to this team?
We have FIVE second basemen. F-I-V-E. Why trade an elite pitcher for a guy that provides marginal value over what we currently have?
Miles & Fontenot have played the most games at 2B.
Miles career WAR – .8
Fontenot – 4.3
Kendrick – 4.8
We can all agree that Miles sucks. In 2007 and 2008, LBR’s WAR has been 3.8, whereas Kendrick’s 3.6. I think when Fontenot is used properly (as in, NOT at 3B, where he’s a career -11.4 UZR/150, and less frequently than every-damn-day), he’s a more valuable player than Kendrick.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 15, 2009 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
What value does Howie bring to this team?
We have FIVE second basemen. F-I-V-E. Why trade an elite pitcher for a guy that provides marginal value over what we currently have?
Miles & Fontenot have played the most games at 2B.
Miles career WAR – .8
Fontenot – 4.3
Kendrick – 4.8
We can all agree that Miles sucks. In 2007 and 2008, LBR’s WAR has been 3.8, whereas Kendrick’s 3.6. I think when Fontenot is used properly (as in, NOT at 3B, where he’s a career -11.4 UZR/150, and less frequently than every-damn-day), he’s a more valuable player than Kendrick.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 15, 2009 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You must really mean that.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Jun 15, 2009 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
there's been a rash
of double posts. Sometimes, I hit post, and it just sits there; if I click Post again, suddenly, there’s two of them.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2009 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's exactly what happens to me on a some-what regular basis.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 15, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, had the same problem lately.
Not so much today – but last week.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There was a SBN network issue with this.
I thought it had been resolved, but I guess not.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Jun 15, 2009 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know about trading Harden.
The Cubs depth of starting pitching has been the one thing keeping them afloat thus far.
If Harden was traded, then the Cubs rotation goes Zambrano, Dempster, Lilly, Wells, Marshall. There is no room for error in that staff, i.e., no room for injury and/or ineffectiveness. Right now, Marshall can come in from the pen to spot start, or fill in for an injured starter. Who does that with a starter or two hurt/ineffective? Kevin Hart?
Unless the Cubs can get another a bat and a pitcher in a trade, whether a starter or reliever, as a throw-in to a Harden deal, I don’t know if it’s worth it to risk the depth of the pitching staff.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jun 15, 2009 1:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes...
But, we’re not scoring enough runs anyway to get a win everytime Z, Demp, Lilly, Wells, or Harden goes 7 innings and only gives up 2 runs. The pitching is going to waste.
They need to do something. It could be a minor addition at 3B, to fill in for A-Ram, and send Fontenot back to 2B.
Or, it could be a big deal, that nets a real run producer in the middle infield somewhere.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jun 15, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, the offense does need to be addressed.
It’s why I’ve been advocating for Fox and/or Hoffpauir to be getting some at bats, in the hopes that’ll help the offense some.
I just worry that without the depth in the rotation, the Cubs are putting too much on Wells and Marshall, and I don’t look at either one as proven at this point.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jun 15, 2009 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is where to put Fox/Hoffpauir...
Lee has been hitting really well, and we’re heavily invested in Bradley/Soriano. It’s hard to justify playing Fox or Hoffpauir over those guys in spite of their struggles.
by SouthernCub on Jun 15, 2009 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm about at the point where I don't see how playing Fox at third is going to hurt
It can’t be any worse than suffering through a 2-0 loss.
With Hoffpauir, use him to spell Soriano and Bradley (and Lee if need be).
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jun 15, 2009 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
At the very least... his bat needs to be available on the bench.
For late game RISP situations.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jun 15, 2009 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree...
It sounds like he was sent down to get regular AB until it’s time for the DH. I imagine he’ll be called up for that. Perhaps he’ll stick around then until Ramirez is healthy to provide a RH bat off the bench.
by SouthernCub on Jun 15, 2009 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It could hurt if Fox's offense doesn't translate...
He has all of 12 AB this year. If his hitting tails off and he can’t play defense, it’s not going to help.
I wouldn’t mind taking a look, but I don’t know that it’s a solution.
I DO agree that he’s a better pinch hitting option than what we currently have available from the right side.
by SouthernCub on Jun 15, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think he's a long-term solution by any stretch.
And yes, he should be on the bench over the 3 switch-hitting utilitymen who occupy the bench.
But if Fontenot/Miles isn’t going to hit for the next month (or whenever Ramirez comes back), then the Cubs could do worse than putting Fox at third and seeing if he hits.
Who knows, if Fox goes to 3B and Fontenot back to 2B, maybe Fontenot relaxes and hits better.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jun 15, 2009 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I, for one, think Fontenot would hit better...
…once he got re-settled at his natural position. But the Jake Fox at 3B idea seems a lost cause. He played 1B in his first game back with Iowa, and he played RF in yesterday’s game. The organization just seems utterly unwilling to even give him a shot there.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fontenot is already hitting better...
I really don’t know if the position change had anything to do with it, but if it did he seems to have settled down.
As for Fox, I agree with you. I think it’s a lost cause. I wouldn’t necessarily be opposed to giving him a shot over Miles (moving Fontenot back to 2B and maybe setting up a platoon), but it just doesn’t appear that there’s any chance of it happening.
by SouthernCub on Jun 15, 2009 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the organization
is going to know better than us. Maybe Trammel saw something he’s not talking about.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2009 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Daver whispers:
“Alan Trammell seems dead people hopeless third basemen.”
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the Cubs are completely unwilling to experiment with Fox at 3B
they’re shooting themselves in the foot. He might not be the short-term answer over there, but they’ll never know unless they try.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jun 15, 2009 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Currently, only one switch-hitter resides on the bench...
That’s Blanco (though he doesn’t switch-hit anymore), and he HAS to be there. Fontenot and Miles are currently starters, and Scales is with Fox in AAA. Fox could only replace Reed Johnson, Micah Hoffpauir, or a pitcher. I think he should be up in place of the pitcher.
And for what it’s worth, Fontenot has already started hitting. He’s put up the following stats in June: .282/.383/.410 (.793 OPS). That’s pretty solid, and he has a longer track record of hitting MLB pitching than Fox.
by SouthernCub on Jun 15, 2009 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, it's good Fontenot is hitting again. That's promising.
But as I think we’d agree, the current roster construction makes no sense, especially with 13 pitchers.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jun 15, 2009 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am not familar with the Angels
to know what else they have. I am just telling you what I think Harden is worth. I for one would love to see us find an everyday 2nd baseman who can hit in the 2 hole, steal a few bases and hit .300 plus. I think kendrick could be that for multiple years. Fontenot could be a sub at 2nd & 3rd depending on matchups.
I was the first person to bring up Freddy Sanchez, I would love to see him on this team. I think 2nd base is our biggest spot for improvment on offense. DLee isn’t getting traded, Armis isn’t getting traded, neither is any of our outfielders, or our catcher, probably not ss either. So where else do you try to improve this team offensively?
Please tell me.
by Cubsfan Waveland on Jun 15, 2009 1:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Howie’s had 160 PAs out of 1198 in the two hole. He doesn’t really bat in the second spot at all, he’s stolen 28 bases in 300+ career games, and is right under .300 AVG with .294. I just don’t think he’s the guy that we should be envisioning when looking for a 2B.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 15, 2009 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He' 25,
which is heading into the prime baseball producing age according to experts.
What are your suggestions?
by Cubsfan Waveland on Jun 15, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well seeing as we got him for a hill of beans
I dont know what you could expect back from him, so I say resign him, the Cubs have done as good a job as possible at keeping him healthy, better than Oakland at least, and he can clearly dominate the NL
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Jun 15, 2009 1:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I mentioned this
in another thread, but I think Hendry should look into Brandon Wood. Perhaps a Harden/Wood swap would help both teams. The Angels aren’t using Wood, and he continues to tear up AAA pitching. He could help us at 2nd/3rd/short.
The Angels have one of the highest team ERAs in baseball.
I’m not sure who has more trade value (Harden will bring back picks if he doesn’t re-sign and is an effective starter, but has health issues and won’t be back next year, while Wood isn’t established)., so there would probably need to be some other players involved, but getting rid of some money and getting a solid bat seems like a good deal to me.
DEJESUS!!!
by tomas21 on Jun 15, 2009 2:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Only one Wood allowd to ever wear a Cubs jersney from this point forward
Sorry….sentimental here :)
by ak123 on Jun 15, 2009 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why get sentimental
over a guy who failed to reach his potential? Sentimentality will never get you a ring.
by lookingdeadred on Jun 16, 2009 7:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
someone to trade
What we really need to talk about is what potential free agents are available on teams that are out of the race or nearly out of the race. This team has great young arms and I am sure someone would like to give Jake Fox a chance to play 1b everyday. What we STILL need is a CF. Fukudome is reverting into a platoon player that is very EXPENSIVE because he can’t play everyday. I know everyone is high on Reed but it’s kinda like how everyone loves the backup quarterback. Reed is better in small doses, but once he plays everyday with any regularity he will revert back to his as a light hitting outfielder. Fuku and Bradley would be a better platoon in RF since Bradley can’t stay healthy enough to play everyday and his career numbers show he isn’t as good of a left handed hitter as he is righty. Fuku plays against Righties, Bradley against lefites. It’s not ideal, but Jim paid for these mistakes. Not sure who to go after in CF, too bad Nate McLouth was nabbed up by the Braves already. Do you think a change of scenery would help Chris Young?
by IVYHOPESDreams on Jun 15, 2009 2:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think
it’s way too early to bring the jury out on Dome.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2009 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, although there is definitely reason for concern...
As this season has had a somewhat similar tone to last season.
Hopefully, this is just a bad slump, and he returns to May form (I don’t hold out hope for a repeat of April). He’ll be a worthwhile player if he can maintain that level.
by SouthernCub on Jun 15, 2009 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you mean the jury is still out.
We don’t want to bring them back in. We may need to buy them some donuts, though.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
they shouldn't even
be deliberating at this point.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2009 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Milton Bradley is very good at baseball.
Despite all that’s happened of late and this season, I still believe this. You don’t platoon someone who is that good. As long as he’s healthy, he should play.
I think the Cubs just need to stick with Dome – but be as proactive as possible. I want to hear that someone is pulling him aside and pleading with him to re-evaluate his approach. I want to hear that he’s been ordered to attend daily post-game meetings in the video room to review his ABs. I want to hear that his hitting coach from Japan is being flown in first class – or at least dialed into a conference call. I want to hear some reassurance that the Cubs are doing something, anything to pull him out of the death spiral he went into last year.
Re: Chris Young. No thanks. Can’t stand the guy, and there’s probably something wrong with him. Also, what are we trying to do: Go down the Padres rotation until a deal sticks? Next thing you know we’ll be trying to get Chad Gaudin back.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and i'm assuming
he’s talking about the other chris young, since he was talking about center fielders.
DEJESUS!!!
by tomas21 on Jun 15, 2009 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, right.
Well, I’m usually not one to cite batting average but that Chris Young is hitting .189 in 212 ABs. Ouch.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 15, 2009 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay
How about we give you Chris Young and Eric Byrnes? If you add their averages together, they’re hitting .405.
"Scott, if your life had a face, I would punch it. I would punch your life in the face."
by kishi on Jun 16, 2009 11:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tempting.
But neither hits left-handed so they are automatically disqualified from joining the 2009 Chicago Cubs.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 17, 2009 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Work with me here!
Give ’em a shot- you could probably turn them around at the plate and not see much of a drop in their average.
"Scott, if your life had a face, I would punch it. I would punch your life in the face."
by kishi on Jun 17, 2009 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I personally have always coveted Eric Byrnes
I just love the way he plays the game. He’s always having fun.
by burncruisin on Jun 19, 2009 5:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's a great guy
But, unfortunately, just not excelling on the field.
"Scott, if your life had a face, I would punch it. I would punch your life in the face."
by kishi on Jun 19, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harden's value simply isn't that high
Perform the following exercise: consider what we gave up for Rich Harden. Consider that his trade value, for 1.5 years.
Now, subtract 60% of the value of his trade value.
That’s what you’re left with, in terms of his trade value. When we traded for him, he was an injury risk but was club-controlled for 1.5 years. Now, he’s only club controlled for .5 years and remains an injury risk.
The notion that he has much trade value is as far-fetched as the notion trading him would help the team.
by Wreckard on Jun 15, 2009 3:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I certainly
wouldn’t consider him a must-trade, to the point that you dump him for pennies on the dollar. The point of trading him is to get something of value back on the offensive side. If you can’t do that, he shouldn’t be traded. He still holds a fair amount of value for the club this year (plus the draft pick next year). We could live without him, but he’s nice to have.
DEJESUS!!!
by tomas21 on Jun 15, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's like driving
a new car off the lot. :P
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2009 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It all depends
on how Harden does the next few starts. If he dominates, and he certainly is capable of dominating several starts in a row, there will be teams who think they need one more starter to put them over the top, there always are.
by lookingdeadred on Jun 16, 2009 8:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Harden is healthy...
…I would not give up a guy who can be dominant, to add a bat. Somewhere down the road, you’ll wish you had that arm back.
The hitting can’t get any worse and they are bound to start hitting soon regardless of whether they make a trade. Ride it out, and hope for the best, but don’t trade good pitching to get there.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Jun 15, 2009 4:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Totally agree.
If I had it my way, the Cubs would use “win at any cost” mentality if they make it to the playoffs. That means going with three starters and put the other two in the bullpen. Rich Harden would be absolutely perfect for that role.
Something Z, Lilly, Dempster and have Marshall, Wells, Harden ready to come out of the pen.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Jun 15, 2009 7:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They might want to think about trading Guzman
before he has more arm problems. I believe he was one of the pitchers that Piniella mentioned over the weekend without naming names that he could not use because of tenderness. With his injury history, is value will never be higher.
by cubdreamer on Jun 15, 2009 5:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
If I had to pick between trading Guzman and Marmol right now
it would be a very difficult choice.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 15, 2009 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That works both ways. The Cubs have been very patient with him and have invested a lot
of time in him. He is started to pay dividends now. If he can contribute to the team, do you really want to trade him now? How much are you going to get for a setup man with little experience? I think he is worth a lot more to the Cubs on the roster than he could fetch in trade.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jun 15, 2009 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still think...
…Guzman’s injuries were largely related to being a starter – trying to pitch too many innings at a time. He’s got great stuff and seems to be establishing himself as a very good set-up man. Granted, his value is on the rise, but I wouldn’t favor weakening the bullpen when it finally seems to be finding its legs. Again, Guzman, Ascanio and Marmol could turn out to be a hell of a threesome.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 16, 2009 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
TWSS
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
She's really into golf, eh?
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 16, 2009 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jenga.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't trade Harden
but if i had to, the type of guy i’d target is Ben Zobrist….
The Rays need front-end pitching with Kazmir down and have struggled with SP depth as well (Sonnanstine).
Zobrist fills multiple roles around the diamond and is a stud in the making at low cost
Unfortunately I doubt the Rays would do it, since they tend not to give away guys like Zobrist but they have some depth with Bartlett coming back off the DL, Burrell as well, and Willy Aybar playing well and Harden’s the cheapest ace pitcher they could get both in terms of trading prospects and actual contract cost
If they view Zobrist as a super U player, maybe they’d do it. If they view him as their future 2B, probably wouldn’t.
He’s the type of guy i’d target though, because you need someone who can find a role on the field (2B, SS) after Aramis comes back
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 15, 2009 8:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd love to see the Cubs get Ben Zobrist
mostly because he grew up right next to my hometown. Good kid.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jun 16, 2009 1:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
more importantly to me
he’s one HECK of a baseball player
the Astros made a big mistake giving him up
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 16, 2009 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
trading Harden
While I would prefer to keep Harden in the Cub rotation, if you can trade him for a bopper, you need to consider it. Another team who might be interested would be the Phillies. Ideally you would not trade Harden to team you could see in the playoffs, but if you could get a guy like say, Jayson Werth, it could be a deal worth making.
by lookingdeadred on Jun 16, 2009 8:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Werth is RH
he’s ineligible for acquisition
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 16, 2009 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know
clearly the team is too lefthanded this season so getting a guy like Werth would fix that.
For the record, j/k
by lookingdeadred on Jun 17, 2009 8:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
in all seriousness though
the problem with acquiring an OF bat is the best chance at our offense improving is through the improvement of our CURRENT OF bats, outside help if we target it needs to come from 2B, SS or a player that provides flexibility and can occasionally spot guys in the OF as well
if you target a pure OF then you’ve relegated Bradley, Soriano, or Fukudome to the bench for the rest of the season
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 16, 2009 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I would prefer to keep him in the rotation as I think the hitting will come around. I was just playing the hypothetical who we could trade Harden for game and the Fightin Phils are a team that desperately needs starting pitching. They are not alone, there are always others, so there would be a market for Harden if he can show he is ready to pitch again.
by lookingdeadred on Jun 17, 2009 8:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
agree with the thought process
on who would be available and what type of target we could get, just hope that we don’t focus on acquiring someone who is exclusively a C, 1B, 3B, or OF because it limits us longer-term
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 17, 2009 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
An unrelated Harden note
I bought last week online a Rich Harden bobble head.
It finally came in the mail. I opened it up to put on my offices desk and his leg was broken off the platform.
Needless to say, it needs to be put on DL before even being used.
by ak123 on Jun 15, 2009 9:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
i wonder if that was intentional....
by the maker
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 15, 2009 9:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
friggin hilarious
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jun 15, 2009 10:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How Cub-like. Did it come with it's own MRI machine?
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jun 15, 2009 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
At least it wasn't his arm...?
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 16, 2009 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well if I were to deal Harden.
I call the Tampa Bay Rays! I’d ask for either Lance Cormier or Ben Zobrist. They’d move Niemann to the pen and we gain a 2B or pen arm.
Get Peavy already! I want my #44 jersey!
by Cub Style on Jun 16, 2009 12:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
please tell me that OR is supposed to be an AND
because i don’t want an offer of Rich Harden for Lance Cormier muttered anywhere that Jim Hendry may be able to hear
as for Big Ben Zobrist, that was my big idea as well (see above), LOVE Zobrist
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 16, 2009 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well if the Rays run and get to 3 out at the trade deadline.
I doubt we get Lance. It just depends where they’re at.
Get Peavy already! I want my #44 jersey!
by Cub Style on Jun 16, 2009 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not sure i follow...
the Rays have to be in it to make a trade for Harden…
they wouldn’t try to acquire Harden if they weren’t in the playoff hunt
my basic point was trading Harden for Lance Cormier would be horrific, the guy has been terrible throughout his career, his 2009 season is a mirage thanks to a .236 BABIP against, and even if he was any good you don’t trade a great starter for a good reliever without hurting your team
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 16, 2009 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well their bullpen already isn't that great.
I could see them dealing Zobrist with other pieces rather than Zobrist and Cormier.
Get Peavy already! I want my #44 jersey!
by Cub Style on Jun 16, 2009 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We'll give you Counsell for Harden, straight up.
Counsell’s been tearing it up! It’s a Win-Win! :)
i have a reasonable dislike of Bill Hall.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jun 16, 2009 5:38 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
What about Harden for Michael Young?
Fills in at 3B. When Rami comes back, he moves to SS, Theriot to 2B. Rangers need pitching…
by mic on Jun 16, 2009 9:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
16 million reasons
for each of the next 3 years to say NO to that idea
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 16, 2009 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So the Cubs
should find someone to help for free?
by mic on Jun 18, 2009 8:34 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
reply button is your friend
and the Cubs have a budget, they cannot afford adding $16 million in salary annually for the next 3 years
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 18, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So I forgot to hit the reply button...get over it.
I think the Rangers would discuss this trade. They could take on some of Young’s salary. They seem to be really interested in starting pitching. Harden would instantly become their ace. And Michael Young was not happy there at the beginning of the season.
And don’t act like the Cubs’ budget is stuck in one place forever. They get more spending money every year.
by mic on Jun 18, 2009 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the salary structure of the team
already increases significantly next year because of back-loaded contracts, we cannot afford 16 million for next season… it was one of the big snags in the Peavy deal as well
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 19, 2009 6:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Marshall, Blanco and another Pitching Prospect
to the Washington Nationals for Adam Dunn and Nick Johnson.
This would give the Nationals what they badly need, cheap, good young pitching and a middle infield prospect. It would give the Cubs a Big Banger for the Outfield in Dunn and a fragile, but good hitting first baseman to split time with D Lee. (or trade D Lee after getting Nick the Stick).
by frustratedfan on Jun 18, 2009 12:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Nats hang up the phone
on that offer…
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 18, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In a huge hurry.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Jun 18, 2009 9:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But not before they laugh uncontrollably
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 18, 2009 10:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where/when would Adam Dunn play?
Are you saying the Cubs should release Bradley or Soriano?
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 18, 2009 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Nats' GM
would be fired for making a deal like that.
by lookingdeadred on Jun 19, 2009 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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