Sosa on the 2003 Positive List
by mykalmorgan on Jun 16, 2009 3:48 PM CDT
241 comments
According to an ESPN.com story, Sammy Sosa appears on the list of 103 baseball players who tested positive for steroids in 2003, before punitive testing. This is the same list on which Alex Rodriguez appeared. As a young fan who started seriously paying attention to baseball in 1997, Sosa was the first (and as yet, only) true superstar the Cubs have had in my tenure as a fan. I'm not shocked, but disappointed nonetheless. Reactions? Thoughts as to his hall of fame candidacy?
:-(
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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I had held out hope that he'd be found clear of all that stuff.
Damn, Sammy…
Sammy is the reason I became a die hard fan.
This crushes a little piece of me.
by MattHaggard on Jun 16, 2009 3:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Same here...
…Sammy made me a Cubs fan. I probably saw this coming but it still hurts.
by cubbieblue on Jun 16, 2009 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if this is in reaction to his whole HOF banter last week...
“I will calmly wait for my induction to the Baseball Hall of Fame. Don’t I have the numbers to be inducted?” said Sosa, who presently serves the Dominican government as special ambassador for investment opportunities.
Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.
by IowaCubs- on Jun 16, 2009 3:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It certainly does make
ya wonder.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." ~Alvin Dark
by DamonBerryhillsMitt on Jun 16, 2009 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, I was cynical on his timing
for announcing he was retiring last week.
To have this report come out a week later has me wondering if he retired after being contacted by ESPN and NYT to comment on the allegations.
Not good.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Jun 16, 2009 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's almost as sombody...
is ready to leak this info if one of these knuckleheads starts mouthing off about something. (Re: A-Rod.)
Interesting that all of the panelists that testified in front of Congress……all denied taking ‘roids, save for Jose Canseco. Sammy couldn’t speak English, but said he was clean. So did Mr. Palimero.
The ultimate cheater just ‘wanted to talk about the future, not the past.’ Good advice. The redhead had the best lawyer — he didn’t perjure himself.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jun 17, 2009 7:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Funny how Sammy and Mcguire
saved baseball and attracted fans that were lost by the strike/lockout.
Baseball (and the sportwriters) looked the other way, winked or whatever said take the anonymous tests in 2003 then decided to leak the names….All BS you can’t have it both ways they saved the game and made tons of money for the owners…now they were cheats…meanwhile they could not just have some players taking PEDs because they all compete with each other…so the era is tainted for all players and it isnt fiar for th HOF to think they know who didn’t cheat.
Too bad HOF numbers are HOF numbers, but hey MLB won’t have to deal with that or loose a single dime over this but the HOF (and the same sportswriters who loked the other way in 98) will keep out the pour saps that gave 100% (and PED) that MLB asked of them
by zlt1 on Jun 16, 2009 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
100% right
You are dead on and I’m glad to see your post. MLB turned a blind eye, as did the writers and US AS FANS. When I was sitting in Wrigley watching Sammy and McGwire knock them out of the park it mattered not one iota to me if they were on PEDs. It was a damn fine time to be in the park. These two guys saved MLB, MLB and everyone associated profitted from their actions. Am I entitled to a refund of my ticket costs? Heck no!
Anyone who has tried to add strength and muscle mass legitmatley knows you can’t get as big as Sammy and Mack did overnight. We as a fanbase didn’t care. We came out in droves to watch their efforts.
I’ve never subscribed to the “atheletes as role models” school of thougth. I went to games for fun and entertainment. Sammy provided that.
by sdurst on Jun 17, 2009 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No surprise
Too bad though.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." ~Alvin Dark
by DamonBerryhillsMitt on Jun 16, 2009 3:57 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Now if they would only release the whole damn list...
This whole piecemeal crap is truly frustrating. Who’s next? Who will some lackey in the MLBPA have a beef against next?
Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.
by IowaCubs- on Jun 16, 2009 3:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
seriously
its odd how they are dripping out one by one
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Jun 16, 2009 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do you remove a band aid?
Do you prefer to take it off quickly, or slowly? Me, I say rip it off – sure it’ll hurt for a bit, but at least it’s off. Better than the slow, painful pull.
That’s how I look at this mess.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jun 16, 2009 7:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
True, but what's good for MLB and for any
player not named differs radically from the remaining unnamed players.
While it would be easier for me and MLB to put this behind, having the entity who promised to keep the identities private now release is a whole new can of worms.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Jun 17, 2009 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
True.
At some point, MLB and the MLBPA have to look at what is best for everyone – for the remaining 102 (or however many) names on that list and the 1300 innocent players who are under a cloud of suspicion because of those 102.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jun 17, 2009 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think it's the MLBPA leaking the names.
More than likely it’s someone from within the government, like Jeff Nowitski. He seems to have quite a hard-on for MLB.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
by davidalanu on Jun 17, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aww man...
I was REALLY hoping this wouldn’t happen. Sammy WAS Cubs baseball to me for many years growing up. I can’t say I’m shocked by this, but I’m very disappointed to hear it.
Just release the whole damn list for crying out loud.
by kanderber on Jun 16, 2009 3:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I was the same
I got into them more b/c of Ryno, but he brought the excitement to a whole new level, but come on there was no way he was clean
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Jun 16, 2009 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess you now have your
one shred of evidence you were missing a couple of weeks ago…..
by LT on Jun 16, 2009 6:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
To anyone who was shocked/surprised/dissapointed by this
I have a bridge to sell you.
by JimboJet on Jun 16, 2009 4:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
not if I sell them
this prime real estate in the Everglades first!
by AGC on Jun 16, 2009 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have Jesus' first cell phone here as well.
Get Peavy already! I want my #44 jersey!
by Cub Style on Jun 16, 2009 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll tell you,
by the time of his departure, I did not care for Sammy the person and felt deceived by his public persona.
I’m on record here at BCB for questioning his character, ethics, and effort.
All said, I really did not want the day to come where a decade of Cub baseball was tainted beyond just speculation. He starred in some of my very favorite games and I am dissapointed.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Jun 16, 2009 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
We all feel for Sammy’s act hook, line, and sinker. We all loved the Sammy and Big Mac show, but man does it make us look foolish in hindsight.
"Cub fans like to think of things in catastrophic terms." - Crane Kenney
by NashvilleBlue on Jun 16, 2009 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even more, by using and generating the power numbers,
Sosa secured contracts larger than he should have earned on non PED production. If I can assume the Cub payroll total was more of a hard budget number, I realize it’s somewhat fuzzy, then Sammy took a large piece of pie than deserved. Payroll which coulda/shoulda been allocaated to fill another need.
Think of all those years without a rock solid closer during the Sammy era and how $5M a year could have helped fill that void.
Somewhat tongue in cheek, but did Sosa’s actions and resultant contract demands hurt the club?
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Jun 16, 2009 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then again
He produced more than he could have as a result of the PEDs. That’s why they paid him more.
Knowing that there were 104 players who cheated that year, it’s not unlikely that we would have spent any additional payroll on another cheater.
by madcow256 on Jun 16, 2009 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We also need to remember that the "104" number
is, imo, only the very dumbest and/or most arrogant of the PED users. All of MLB knew they were going to be tested, and 104 didn’t have the sense to stop before the test. I would be willing to bet that there were at least that many more who used before the testing started but had the common sense to stop before they were tested. If it had been a surprise test in 2002 I would think that number would have been much, much higher.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
by davidalanu on Jun 17, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hitting
Hitting is as much about timing and hand-eye coordination as it is about raw power. I have never heard an explanation as to how PED’s improve timing and coordination.
by sdurst on Jun 17, 2009 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course
No one’s saying these guys weren’t major league hitters without steroids.
But it should be pretty obvious how steroids help turn a fly out to the warning track into a home run.
"Scott, if your life had a face, I would punch it. I would punch your life in the face."
by kishi on Jun 17, 2009 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All true. But it could be even worse.
Say the Cubs had won it all in 2003 – how would you feel about it now? Would the end of the drought mean as much today knowing what has just been reported about Sosa?
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jun 16, 2009 7:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't think anyone on the Marlins in 2003
was on the juice? I am guessing that every World Series winner for the last 10+ years had a least on player on PED’s.
by LT on Jun 16, 2009 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know. There may have been.
But in a way, it’s nice not having to ask the question of “was the Cubs title worth compromising the integrity of baseball?”
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jun 16, 2009 7:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with LT (and that would have made me feel better HAD we won it all)...
But per a bet, if we had won it all that year (and I was at one of the games where Sosa hit a home run — but they eventually lost) I would now have a cubs tattoo… I am kind of torn. I think it would have been somewhat tainted in my eyes at least
by lji001 on Jun 16, 2009 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd feel tainted and cheated.
Not sure that would be different than I feel right now.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Jun 17, 2009 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
umm...
i think this just verified what most people suspected. Hopefully Sammy can stop lying to everyone and just admit he did it. I don’t really think these players who used it before should really be at fault and not allowed in the HOF, it wasn’t illegal back then.
by aznsensation on Jun 16, 2009 4:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
it was illegal, MLB doesn't decide the laws.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Jun 16, 2009 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
100% agree
It doesn’t matter if it was against the rules or not, it was, and still is, an illegal substance under Federal Law.
by AGC on Jun 16, 2009 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Though Bud wants to...
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Jun 16, 2009 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about some of the guys who used it in other countries where it wasn't illegal...
Steroids and other drugs are legal in the U.S. if you have a medical prescription for it. A lot of these players got these drugs through legal means, albeit some through shady doctors, it was still legal at the time.
by aznsensation on Jun 16, 2009 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think so
I’d be surprised if they were just “legal” as in over-the-counter legally available. The Dominican authorities were adament after the A-Rod scandal that it was just as illegal to buy steroids without a prescription as it is here. They may be more freely available because the enforcement isn’t as good, but that doesnt make it legal anymore than pot is legal on college campuses.
As for the shady prescriptions, you’re answering your own question there. If it were medically necessary, the scrip wouldn’t be shady. And if it were legal, they wouldn’t need a shady scrip. The whole point of getting a doctor with no ethics to write out a scrip for some phony medical reason is to get around laws that restrict these medications.
by Orval Overall on Jun 16, 2009 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There was also a league memo, I'm searching for detail on it.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Jun 16, 2009 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Got it
Commissioner Fay Vincent Issues Memo Regarding Steroid Use
June 7, 1991
After the U.S. Congress raises penalties for steroid possession, Commissioner Fay Vincent sends a memo to each team indicating that steroids would be added to Major League Baseball’s banned list. The memo stated: “The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited … This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs … including steroids.” The seven-page document didn’t include a testing plan — that had to be bargained with the union — but it did outline treatment and penalties.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Jun 16, 2009 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well if breaking the law is grounds for exclusion from the HOF...
Should I try to generate a list of those who should be kicked out?
by Mike Martin on Jun 19, 2009 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This isn't even the most egregious behavior by an ex-Cub in the news today
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 16, 2009 4:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That is awful
No words. Just sad sad thing.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
by jkobus on Jun 16, 2009 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ugh, terrible
And I think I get the reason for linking to it here if its for informational purposes.
If its for comparative purposes, a la Johnny Damon’s comment about how A-Rod could’ve done worse things, like murder somebody, then I don’t get it. Both are terrible, obviously in qualitatively different ways.
by Orval Overall on Jun 16, 2009 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Informational
Wrong is wrong, regardless of degree
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 16, 2009 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus, I didn't want to start a fanpost/fanshot on it
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 16, 2009 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yikes.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 7:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is sad
I can’t say I’m surprised that he used. Obviously, there were grounds to suspect that.
I am surprised he got caught. One thing about Sammy was that he always seemed to get how important an image was, and I felt sure he would’ve cut this stuff out in plenty of time to avoid testing positive for it. I guess I’d rather have stayed ignorant of it.
by Orval Overall on Jun 16, 2009 4:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Remember these test results were supposed to be kept secret
This is the same list that A-Rod came from.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Jun 16, 2009 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but pretty foolish to trust Bud Selig to keep it quiet
If my name and reputation depended on the MLB front office doing something competently, I’d probably find another way to protect myself.
by Orval Overall on Jun 16, 2009 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm no legal expert
But I have a feeling that the players association is going to bring some legal action against somebody because of this whole list getting out.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Jun 16, 2009 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not really feeling bad for the players association
they’re one of the reasons this got so out of hand to begin with. They should have agreed on some form of drug testing earlier.
by aznsensation on Jun 16, 2009 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Still they were promised this test would never come out
It has to some degree, and I know it will fully come out very soon.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Jun 16, 2009 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can't make promises
Against the federal government’s right to issue a search warrant. That’s what ultimately happened here. They were looking for evidence to use in the Balco case, executed a warrant, and got this.
As with all promises of confidentiality, it should come with the caveat “…except as required by law.”
by Orval Overall on Jun 16, 2009 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except the list shouldn't exsist
Everything was supposed to be destroyed right after the results were determined
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Jun 16, 2009 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then they should have required the tests to be destroyed.
If they really thought that these results would sit around in a safe somewhere and never got leaked, then not only is Don Fehr an *******, he’s incompetent to boot. Not to mention incredibly short sighted.
i have a reasonable dislike of Bill Hall.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jun 16, 2009 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Players Association probably lacks standing
They weren’t hurt directly, and in any case the disclosure by the one party they have a connection with (MLB) had to give it up in response to a lawful warrant or subpoena.
Its the further leak from the grand jury that may have repurcussions, as that information is required by law to remain confidential. A year or two ago a lawyer with knowledge of information about Barry Bonds got in very serious trouble by leaking information attained from the grand jury. Its possible that would happen again here.
by Orval Overall on Jun 16, 2009 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt it. No legal action will be forthcoming, IMHO.
It’s just bad PR for the union to cover it up. They’d truly be served by releasing all names. This ends the speculation. If it’s all out, players can beg for forgiveness. We are forgiving folks, us baseball fans.
Besides, when these players started ingesting this crap, there were no rules/testing in place. That all came later, after the damage was done.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jun 17, 2009 7:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember defending Sammy to my friends.
Even after the corked bat incident too. Now I have come full circle and think he did use. And in time there will be more proof to come. Just sad when one of your heroes falls.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
by KaliCub on Jun 16, 2009 4:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I've never thought he wasn't using
I just thought he had done a good job of protecting himself from proof unlike most other guys. The final question of if he would get away with it came from if his name was on this list or not.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Jun 16, 2009 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was trying to explain this to a friend a few minutes ago.
Cognitively, I knew that there was a pretty strong chance that Sosa used some for of PED (just look at him through the years!), but that nonetheless I’m having an emotional response that upsets me.
by mykalmorgan on Jun 16, 2009 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Simply Shocking
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Jun 16, 2009 4:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm just praying that Greg Maddux doesn't ever get implicated...
he’s my last hope for any respect that I have for baseball during this era.
by aznsensation on Jun 16, 2009 4:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh Geez
I guess no one is off limits. IMO, this is not fair to suggest. I hope we have not become that sullen.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
by StevenABQ on Jun 16, 2009 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the previous poster was making a point
Not suggesting that Maddux used.
by elgato on Jun 16, 2009 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was making a point too
Maybe I have rose-colored glasses, but I’m not bending knee and lighting a candle, begging the almighty for Muddux to be clean just yet. I still think we can have faith in some of these guys.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
by StevenABQ on Jun 16, 2009 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know what would allow us to keep our faith in individual players?
The rest of the list being revealed. No more guessing. No more targeted character assassinations. Don’t think that Sammy is going to be the last name to be leaked out.
by madcow256 on Jun 16, 2009 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This slow death has to be bothering the League Office and MLBPA
I would guess they would prefer to rip the band aid off quickly and put this behind them, but can’t because of the issues with individuals on the list.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Jun 16, 2009 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed and Agreed
With both you and madcow256 above. The question they are likely pondering is: Do you release it all and risk widespread fan dissapointment with MLB (particularly during this time of economic downturn and flagging attendances), or do you let it slowly fester and hope that it will be less damaging to the image (and revenue potential) of baseball in the future?
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
by StevenABQ on Jun 16, 2009 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, what recourse does a named, but non-public player
have against the league if the league releases after promising privacy?
Teams of lawyers would have to review the agreements and may have to negotiate with each named individual.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Jun 17, 2009 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't worry about it unless
They found out that Big Macs or Krispy Kremes contained steroids. That is about the only way they would get in his system.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 17, 2009 12:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yawn
did anyone really believe Sosa wasn’t on steroids?
the public had already convicted him anyway
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 16, 2009 4:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Apparently a lot of Cub fans didn't believe it
see the fanpost(s) from when Sammy announced he was retiring. I think well over 50% in a poll said he would get in the hall of fame. I said I wouldn’t be surprised if he is on the list that Arod was on. Sammy now has 0 chance of getting in the HOF
by LT on Jun 16, 2009 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
Sammy now has 0 chance of getting in the HOF
I disagree.. with so many huge names of the 90’s being tainted… I think there may be some readjustment as to who can get it…
I haz blurg: hotbeans.wordpress.com
by digitalbenjamin on Jun 16, 2009 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
However, to reintroduce what we discussed last week, does Sammy have the resume if any of his power numbers are tainted? His HR total are the foundation of his HOF resume and the resultant numbers of RBI’s and slugging % and the MVP were derived from the power.
I’m curious to see this resolve over time.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Jun 16, 2009 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
60 hrs
three years in a row.
He’ll get in. And I don’t consider this leak to be proof anyway.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 7:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He hit 60 homeruns in 3 different years
but it wasn’t 3 years in a row.
Nonetheless, I don’t think Sammy gets in.
by Cubs and Hawks fan on Jun 17, 2009 8:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it was three years in a row.
my mistake.
The numbers are the numbers.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are some reporters out there now (Buster Olney for one)
who say that they’ll vote for the best players of the era, because no one is above suspicion.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jun 16, 2009 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ya, i think the best players will be voted in regardless.
They can’t have a blank hole in the Hall of Fame. The period is going to be known as the “Steriod Era.” Why not have the best players from this “Steriod Era” be the ones to represent it?
by mic on Jun 16, 2009 8:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As long as it was mentioned on the plaque of those from era, I'm ok with it.
Now if a player was never found to have used, maybe it doesn’t need mentioned, but for the Sosa’s, Clemens’s, etc., of the world, it should be on their plaques if they ever get in.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jun 16, 2009 8:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sosa
has not been found to have used.
Proof. Show it.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 8:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, if the report that his name is on the list of players who have tested positive is confirmed.
(I’ll allow for the fact that the report could be erroneous.)
But if it is confirmed and further details come out as to what substance Sammy Sosa tested positive for in the 2003 season, then if he was ever voted into the Hall of Fame (in a hypothetical scenario in which all the best players from the late 1980’s-present are part of a greater “Steroid Era”), then I think his plaque should make mention of that.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jun 16, 2009 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
if it’s confirmed — and the only way for it to be confirmed is for the report to be released, and for, somehow, anonymous results to be linked to Sosa — then fine. Put it on his HOF plaque.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't think Sosa is about to have a press conference
admitting that he used it only once and didn’t gain anything from them so he quit or something to that effect?
by LT on Jun 16, 2009 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not unless he wants
to get charged with perjury
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 16, 2009 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
of course not.
but then, I don’t think an anonymous report about a confidential test is compelling.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 9:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Arod had one
not long after it was announced his name was on the list.
by LT on Jun 16, 2009 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so?
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So... I don't remember you getting all
proofy about A-Rod.
Oh, that’s right. Cub thing.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 17, 2009 6:19 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
1) A-Rod admitted it. Had he not, I would have said the same thing I’m saying about Sosa now
2) I don’t follow the Yankees.
This has nothing to do with the Cubs, and everything to do with not condemning a man without proof.
You have none.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok let me make it a little easier for you
If Sosa admits it like Arod did will you stilll be hunkered down in denial??
by LT on Jun 17, 2009 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You will.....
proof soon enough.
Sammy lied to Congress. They will interview him as a result. Any half ass attorney will tell him to tell the truth.
A report will be issued and Sammy’s confession will be front and center.
I know your sig says you are a Cubs FANATIC. IMHO you have taken it too far. Your “see no evil/ hear no evil/ speak no evil” is an embarrassment to Cubs fans everywhere.
by timeforachange2009 on Jun 18, 2009 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
OMG!
I say that the records should be amended… so that in 2003 the Cubs lost in six games instead of seven in the NLCS.
by daeviant on Jun 16, 2009 4:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Of course, this isn't a surprise
But I had held out a little bit of hope that Sammy was clean — simply because there had been no evidence that he used, whereas Bonds, McGwire, et. al had been implicated.
by elgato on Jun 16, 2009 4:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No Evidence...???
Take a quick peek at Pictures of Sammy early in his career with the Rangers
and compare them to his Cubs years…
- Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
- Germans?
- Forget it, he's rolling.
by Endrick on Jun 16, 2009 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats not really evidence
Bonds had an entire book dedicated to him, the Clemens dna syringes, eye witness accounts, Canseco links etc etc is what I think he was referring to
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Jun 16, 2009 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't believe the naivete on this board!
There’s some of you who actually thought Sosa was clean simply because there was no proof?
I know my post here sounds harsh, but c’mon, guys. Were you really born yesterday?
by reedjohnson on Jun 16, 2009 7:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
proof
show it.
I’ll wait.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so are you saying that today, right now, in the absence of any real substantive proof,
in your heart and mind you truly don’t think Sosa was using?
And if somewhere down the road, the NYT or ESPN or somebody comes out with some real substantive proof, then you will change your mind and believe that he was using? You can switch, just like that?
Just trying to understand your mindset here…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jun 16, 2009 8:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I require proof
to condemn someone of it. Currently, there is no proof that Sosa did steroids. What I personally believe is irrelevant.
Prove it. I’ll wait.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 8:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
why is what you personally believe irrelevant?
I don’t think you are a judge, a DA, a member of Congress, the commissioner of baseball, the president of the HoF, or a member of the BBWA (or whatever that group is that votes for the HoF), and I’m pretty sure that you’re not Mrs. Sosa. So it’s not like you have any power or authority to convict the guy or otherwise cause him harm.
Not asking you to judge or condemn the guy. Just asking what you think. And if you don’t want to share your thoughts on the matter, that’s fine. But digging your heels in like you seem to be doing just doesn’t make sense to me. I foresee a lot of unnecessary angst in the near future.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jun 16, 2009 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
what I think
is that there is no proof. Until there is proof, there is no reason to believe gossip or hearsay.
I’ve had people lie about me, and reveal confidential information about me before. It’s a heinous act.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 9:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Understand your P-O-V
but there’s plenty of circumstancial evidence. That stuff can hold up in court. It’s just naive to think otherwise.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jun 17, 2009 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looking back
I’m really glad we didn’t win the WS in 2003. That title would feel tainted to me.
by Pre on Jun 16, 2009 4:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
don't say that...i'd still rather have a world series title
by aznsensation on Jun 16, 2009 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
What would that say about the Cubs losing to the Dodgers in the NLDS last season. That it’s tainted because Manny was on PED?
by daeviant on Jun 16, 2009 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
We were losing that series regardless of whether or not Manny was juicing. Our pitching was awful, our defense was awful, and our offense was awful. We had no plate discipline and couldn’t hit a homer in a swimming pool.
by Pre on Jun 16, 2009 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't forget
the defense was awful, too
by daeviant on Jun 16, 2009 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course, the Dodgers may well have not been in the playoffs without Manny
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
by davidalanu on Jun 17, 2009 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that was tainted
b/c Soriano still didnt realize he cant hit sliders down and away
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Jun 16, 2009 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure I can say that I'm really glad about it
Besides, who knows if any Marlins were.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 16, 2009 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do we know players on the Marlins weren’t using as well?
Yes I write fluffy fanfiction. I said it. If you want to read some email me for where it is.
by cubstoseriesby100 on Jun 16, 2009 7:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
YA
I would rather win a divison and fall in the playoffs with WINNERS and REAL PLAYER like Riot, K-Wood, DERO,than WINNING it all with cheats like MANNY and SAMMY
Their names should be removed from EVERYTHING IN BASEBALL
by Harry Seaward on Jun 16, 2009 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Real Home Run King of 1990-Present?
I haven’t heard anything about Ken Griffey, Jr. using PED’s. I don’t know if Jim Thome has ever used or not. Griffey is a first ballot HOF’er. If there is never any proof Thome used, his Hall chances will increase. 550+ alleged non-juiced HR’s is an accomplishment. “Have they been non-juiced?” is the question.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Jun 16, 2009 4:52 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
With the way these revelations are going
It might be Tuffy Rhodes.
by daeviant on Jun 16, 2009 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tuffy Rhodes
What did he take to hit 3 HR’s off Dwight Gooden on opening day in 1994? He only got a 1-day supply of whatever he took.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Jun 16, 2009 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good question... who is the true clean Home Run King of the 1990's?
Griffey? Thome? Thomas?
I haz blurg: hotbeans.wordpress.com
by digitalbenjamin on Jun 16, 2009 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't trust any of them...
I think all three of those guys probably used a PED at some point in their career. Nobody in MLB is free from accusations in my eyes now.
by aznsensation on Jun 16, 2009 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was obvious
from the mention of Maddux earlier.
I know, I know, you were just making a point….but still.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
by StevenABQ on Jun 16, 2009 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i was only saying that maddux was my last piece of hope
I love the guy and hope he didn’t do it, but i’m a cynical guy and wouldn’t be surprised if maddux did as well. Nobody is above suspicion now, not even Maddux, but I can still hope he didn’t do it.
by aznsensation on Jun 16, 2009 5:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grace just smoked
unfltered Camels…outside of alcohol, and caffeine, I’d bet those are the only ‘enhancing’ substances he injested in his Cubs career. He turned out to be a jerk, but he was clean.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jun 17, 2009 7:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thome would surprise me.
He came into the league in 1991, but finally broke in in 1994 as an everyday player. Averaging 13.57 at bats per homer, 1994 was 16.05, 9.231 in ‘02, career average of 13.577. He was mashing the ball from day one and doesn’t have the huge power swings other guys had (insert favorite rumor here_______)
In ‘08, 34 HR’s, one every 14.79 at bats and to date this year, he has 12, or one every 13.577.
With current testing, I doubt Thome is currently using, but his numbers have been consistent enough that if he ever used, he’s still using.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Jun 16, 2009 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hope You're Right About Thome
Bob Costas doesn’t think of him as a HOF’er. 550+ HR’s not using PED’s should get him in the Hall. I don’t think Thome used PED’s either, but I’m merely guessing about that. He’s been an outstanding player with the Indians and White Sox.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Jun 16, 2009 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Correct me if I'm wrong
but he’s always been a big guy, not like he’s suddenly added muscle mass. That alone would give me some reason to think he was clean
by chitownhawkeye on Jun 16, 2009 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
look at these guys HEADS growing like DOUBLE SIZES, i mean WTF ARE WE SUPPOSED 2 THINK
Thome always been a big dude
by Harry Seaward on Jun 16, 2009 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't mean to be cynical
But they say what saved baseball in the 90’s was the amazing offensive numbers. Guys like Sosa and MacGwire and Bonds. Now it turns out they were allegedly juicing. Can we conclude that steroids saved baseball?
by daeviant on Jun 16, 2009 5:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, they did help it recover faster from injury.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Jun 16, 2009 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
LOL
Priceless.
"I'll never forget how I felt last October." ~Kosuke Fukudome
by Goodie1969 on Jun 16, 2009 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In A Way, Yes
The fans came back after the strike to see those home runs hit. Could MLB have fallen off in popularity to the level of the NHL without the steroids? I don’t know. Those steroids did increase interest in the game. MLB essentially sold its soul to the devil.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Jun 16, 2009 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gammons was just on ESPN
Talking about this story. In response to if the allegations/positive tests ruins their legacies he said “The fans dont care”
Anyone agree with that? I mean I am with a lot of people and Sammy/McGuire brought me full force into baseball but I still think the memories he made are now all tarnished for me.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
by jkobus on Jun 16, 2009 5:11 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I care, but I'm assuming he meant all baseball fans.
I doubt Dodger/Padre fans care about Sammy/McGuire. I don’t care about McGuire other than to tweak my Cardinal fan buddies and assume they are the same way with Sosa.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Jun 16, 2009 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The fans are past the stage of denial
I think we as fans just want this to be over. Nothing surprises us anymore. Nothing will shock us unless someone came out and said that Cal Ripken Jr. was juicing. I think we all just want to go on with this new PED-less era of baseball and watch our current teams win.
by daeviant on Jun 16, 2009 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed there
But the way I took what he was saying was that with Sosa, we as fans couldnt give a crap that he was juicin when he was doing what he did.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
by jkobus on Jun 16, 2009 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it depends
Fans in general would be outraged, but Cubs fans might go through denial, just as Giants fans were in denial when Bonds was outed, and current Yankees fans are in denial about A-Rod.
by daeviant on Jun 16, 2009 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right-thinking people always knew he was
We just put up with it because he helped in 1998 and 2003.
I’d give every damn player steroids if I thought it would guarantee a Cubs championship.
People talk about playing the game the right way. You know how you know you played the game the right way?
You look up at the scoreboard. If the number next to your name is bigger than the number next to the other guys’ name, you played the right way.
I’m not interested in the Hall of Fame. I don’t care if D. Lee ever gets there.
I do care if he wins a championship.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 16, 2009 5:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
To paraphrase Captain Renault...
I’m shocked! Shocked to find that this type of behavior was going on!
by hokie316 on Jun 16, 2009 5:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Beat me to it.
I was going to paraphrase the same quote, though I wouldn’t clipped in the excellent photo. I love Casablanca.
The test result just confirms what everyone’s common sense told them, though not everyone wanted to admit their suspicions on this very site a few weeks back.. He may make the hall, but not until the questions of Bonds and Big Mac’s candidacies are resolved first. If they get in, he’ll likely get in too. If they don’t, he doesn’t have a chance.
i have a reasonable dislike of Bill Hall.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jun 16, 2009 5:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, this is about as shocking
as the Iranian elections being rigged. Who would’ve thunk it?
"I'll never forget how I felt last October." ~Kosuke Fukudome
by Goodie1969 on Jun 16, 2009 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sam-ME Corky Steroid
If anybody can say with a straight face that they find the news that Sam-ME tested positive for steroids then I just don’t know what to say. Other than please note that the sun shall set in the west this evening.
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
by BLou on Jun 16, 2009 5:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
...and least now there can no longer be ANY debate
His Hall of Fame chances were bad to begin with. Now they are zilch. Which makes me happy because all these rat bastards who used performance enhancing drugs should burn on Hell Island as far as I’m concerned.
See ya Sam-ME. Don’t let the door hit you in the ass.
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
by BLou on Jun 16, 2009 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmm... can't wait to see what you'll post here when Sammy is inducted into the HoF
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jun 16, 2009 6:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blou
Even though Sammy probably deserves all of your contempt, the whole “Sam-ME Corky…” thing is getting old. Its like your channeling the repetition habit of KOW. Whats next you gonna start using “meatball fan” ad nausem?
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
by StevenABQ on Jun 16, 2009 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
we can only hope.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 7:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry if I am repeating what has been said
But it really makes me mad that only 2 names have been leaked. Release all names on the list if you want to be fair.
I can’t and will not change my view point on A-Rod and Sammy until all the names are released. Not fair to judge with only a piece of the evidence.
by Cubsfan Waveland on Jun 16, 2009 5:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
This is about as newsy as "Sun Rises In The East"
Not surprised at all. Just glad it’s finally out in the open.
Disappointing, to say the least. Never should he or his fellow abusers be in the HOF.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jun 16, 2009 5:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
or as surprising as Bruce Froemming
…run out to chase a ball that might land in the basket.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Jun 16, 2009 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
Baseball is better off with him off the field, although I guess he still works for MLB in an advisory capacity.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jun 16, 2009 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Three big names who in my opinion who have been absolutely clean throughout this whole thing
1. Ken Griffey
2. Frank Thomas
3. Albert Pujols
No doubt there are other big names who are clean too. But the aforementioned three were / are absolutely clean throughout their careers in my view.
The next big name to drop???? My bet is on Mike Piazza.
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
by BLou on Jun 16, 2009 5:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Id bet a million dollars 1 of those 3 is on the list
…..and the next name to drop IMO is Big Papi
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Jun 16, 2009 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No bet.
i have a reasonable dislike of Bill Hall.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jun 16, 2009 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No bet on my end either on Big Papi
Frank Thomas was a 260 pound mountain of a man when he came out of Auburn. He also was immediately a hitting star when he hit the majors, which from a chronological perspective was before the 1993 or so stage when most “experts” think performance enhancing drugs really invaded major league baseball.
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
by BLou on Jun 16, 2009 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok Mr Bernstein
..ill withhold my opinion because you are a master-de-bator.
Its tiring when 1 opinion is constantly FACT and others are tossed away
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Jun 16, 2009 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He didnt want to take my bet with you as I read it.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Jun 16, 2009 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It reads like he wouldnt take my bet with you.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Jun 16, 2009 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't be too surprised at any of those
Even Pujols.
by Pre on Jun 16, 2009 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pujols wouldn't surprise me
The other two would.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jun 16, 2009 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think there is about a 50% chance Pujols is caught sometime
There is a lot of steroid use around that guy, and one of the games premier enablers in Tony LaRussa.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Jun 16, 2009 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, I'll take the bait...
Why is Tony LaRussa a “premier enabler”??? Because Mark McGwire and Jose Conseco happend to play for him?!? Please.
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
by BLou on Jun 16, 2009 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
His first base coach Dave McKay
Had a son who tested positive and wrote a book with Canseco. LaRussa still denys that McGwire used. Oversaw Rick Ankiel.
This is a nice piece that talks more about LaRussa defending these guys and attacking members of the press who tried to expose them. Notice that again McKay’s name shows up.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Jun 16, 2009 5:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever
Dusty managed Barry Bonds and Sam-ME Corky Steroid. Do you want to indict him too? Or how about Terry Francona who had Manny Ramirez for 5 years? Or Art Howe for having Miguel Tejada and Jason Giambi in Oakland? Heck, why not indict Billy Beane while we’re at it too.
LaRussa is no more culpable than any manager in the game. The innocence and guilt rests with individual players, period.
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
by BLou on Jun 16, 2009 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But that isn't the same at all
LaRussa has been around this stuff from its beginning.
Sure Dusty gets blame for being with Bonds, and the other guys too. I don’t see them threatening writers because their players are going to be ratted out.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Jun 16, 2009 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Name me ONE manager in the game who would rat out a player
A manager is in place to go to war on behalf of his players. There hasn’t been a single manager in the game who has pointed fingers at any of his players or players on other teams. Because that is how the lockeroom and the fraternity works.
We have no idea what LaRussa did or did not know about some of his former players caught for cheating. Just like we have no idea about Dusty and umpteen other managers during the era. But if you’re going to attack LaRussa for defending his guys like any good field commander would then I just don’t know what to say.
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
by BLou on Jun 16, 2009 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Recently Joe Torre called out for Manny not to be an All Star
He admitted his guy cheated. Hell Canseco freaking admitted he did roids. McGwire was obviously on them, yet Tony claims they aren’t?
I’ll bet Dusty would say Bonds was wrong at this point. LaRussa basically looks like a moron at this point the way he defends those guys.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Jun 16, 2009 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LaRussa is a Lawyer...
…it’s in his blood to doubt! I agree though, he looks like a total moron to doubt it!
"I always tell the truth -- Even when I lie"
by calicubfan on Jun 16, 2009 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bonds and Sosa both played for Dusty.
You want to suggest he had no idea about it? I think LaRussa’s guilty of keeping his mouth shut, at least.
"I'll never forget how I felt last October." ~Kosuke Fukudome
by Goodie1969 on Jun 16, 2009 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All signs point
to the Bay Area. What else is in the Bay Area, besides Fisherman’s Wharf and the Golden Gate Bridge, I wonder?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jun 16, 2009 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In other equally shocking news...
2+2=4
by CalDeano on Jun 16, 2009 6:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
...and this BREAKING NEWS also just in !!!
The letter “A” comes first in the English alphabet.
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
by BLou on Jun 16, 2009 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder what Sammy will say
when the first media person gets to him for a comment? Anyone think he might forget how to speak English again?
by LT on Jun 16, 2009 6:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Anyone else bothered
Anyone else bothered that it’s becoming obvious the media is covering for some of their favorites? I really doubt ESPN only has gotten these 2 names.
Yes I write fluffy fanfiction. I said it. If you want to read some email me for where it is.
by cubstoseriesby100 on Jun 16, 2009 7:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm pretty sure that if ESPN had more names
they would be all over it. They have already gone 24/7 on Arod and Clemens. This is the kind of stuff they like. That and reporting on how many times Brett farted today….
by LT on Jun 16, 2009 7:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When they reliease the list
I’ll believe it. Till then, it’s heresay.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 7:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The Easter Bunny was actually your Mom and Dad
Figured I’d break all the bad news in one day
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 16, 2009 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
whatever, man
I require proof to judge someone guilty. It’s ok that you’ll do it on gossip, tho.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your standard of proof
is actually seeing Sosa inject himself.
No one with a functioning cerebellum believes Sosa didn’t use.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 16, 2009 8:03 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
no
my standard of proof is proof. Admissible proof.
I’ll wait.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 8:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We won't wait for you to catch up
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 16, 2009 8:26 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
OJ is looking for a 4th
for 18 holes tomorrow.
"If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong." - a well known stock market guru
by LAcarl519 on Jun 16, 2009 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Vito Corleone
was just an olive oil producer
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 16, 2009 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol !!!
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
by BLou on Jun 16, 2009 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OJ
was found not guilty by a jury of his peers.
And he’s been locked up for other, provable crimes.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
His peers?
Good one.
"I'll never forget how I felt last October." ~Kosuke Fukudome
by Goodie1969 on Jun 16, 2009 10:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's what
the justice system in this country is designed to do.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 10:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sosa
While not the sharpest tool in the shed, I’m sure he had lawyers who were. When you read Sosa’s comments to Congress, he said that he took no steroids that were illegal in the US or DR. However, IIRC, there are steroids that are legal in the US but on the banned list. If this is indeed the case, it is not perjury, because any lawyer worth his salt would not allow his client to perjure himself. But it doesn’t pass the smell test.
The problem with this is how do you handle this for HOF balloting? If 104 players were on the list, that means on average, one out of every seven players was on the sauce. On average, that’s three players for every team.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- George Santayana (1863-1952)
by cubfred on Jun 16, 2009 7:27 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
FWIW The WSJ Law Blog
has an interesting discussion re: possible perjury charges against Sosa… Here
"This is an environment of welcoming, and you should just get the hell outta here." --Michael Scott
by Reddevil on Jun 17, 2009 8:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
:(
Sad day in baseball..
I'm a lefty, maybe Lou should give me a shot for a position in the bullpen!!
by Chanman25 on Jun 16, 2009 7:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe it's just me...
but I was a Cubs fan long before Sammy and he really had no effect on whether or not I pulled for them in the mid to late 1990’s. I was a Dunston to Sandberg to Grace guy and always liked Dawson better anyways.
It has just bugged me because I remember the excitement Andre brought to the team when we signed him, and to learn of all the pain he played through, and he still made 1987 exciting when nothing else ever could. Dawson was always pretty straight with Cubs fans. I say this because I kind of get tired reading about how Sammy was the greatest right fielder and was the only reason to watch the cubs, etc…
by Perico on Jun 16, 2009 8:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Amen
Sosa will never be half the man that Andre Dawson is. I bet Sandberg would back me on that.
by TheHawkRules on Jun 18, 2009 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sosa lost me at the corked bat.
This is just the icing on the Sosa Lemon Cake.
But do we really think 104+ players could be “juicing” without management turning a blind eye? The whole game encouraged the “get ahead at any cost” spirit and the home run derby was/is the pinnacle of superhuman achievement. Owners, coaches and players took the easy way out to fill the seats (why work harder, work smarter through chemicals).
It’s the American Way!! It’s what multi-billion dollar commercial athletics encourages. The stakes are too high to have it any other way.
"If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong." - a well known stock market guru
by LAcarl519 on Jun 16, 2009 8:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I always loved Sammy, but, IF THIS IS TRUE...
…which I’m sure as hell it is, he’s a cheater (steroids AND the corked bat)…..AND, he’s a liar — he obviously perjured himself in front of Congress.
Still though, he’ll probably still make the Hall. Gaylord Perry wrote a book about the spitball and he’s in, so baseball writers apparently don’t frown too much on cheaters.
He and McGuire took baseball off life-support in ‘98 — That’s probably enough.
"I always tell the truth -- Even when I lie"
by calicubfan on Jun 16, 2009 8:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Only the joke is on the fans...
because it turns out that baseball was actually dead when they took it off life-support. We’re just now finding out what it’s corpse was replaced with…artificial intelligence.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jun 16, 2009 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good point, BUT...
…I don’t think PED’s were against the rules then — Or were they???
IMHO, if you let one roider in, you gotta let em all in.
"I always tell the truth -- Even when I lie"
by calicubfan on Jun 16, 2009 8:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, you don't
A reasonable, intelligent person can take a look at all cases and go case-by-case
Bonds and Clemens were HOF before they picked up a needle.
McGwire and Sosa were not. Neither was Palmeiro.
A-Rod will have plenty of clean years ahead of him to build his resume.
It is intellectually lazy to allow all, or ban all.
Of course, intellectually lazy pretty much defines most baseball writers.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 16, 2009 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fine...
…But how does anyone know when Bonds or Clemens started using??? You’re assuming they were better before they used. Albeit, you’re probably right, but once a player is convicted in the court of public opinion, he may as well been a roider his whole career!
"I always tell the truth -- Even when I lie"
by calicubfan on Jun 16, 2009 8:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think that they should be rewarded
for wronging the greatest game in the world. I don’t care if they had clean years; their dirty years have forever tainted the record books and have hurt baseball.
We need biweekly steroid testing. Kick out anyone who tests positive.
by Pre on Jun 16, 2009 9:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not against the rules
But illegal. Shouldn’t that factor in?
"Scott, if your life had a face, I would punch it. I would punch your life in the face."
by kishi on Jun 16, 2009 11:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Artificial Intelligence...
very nice. enough to go around. the players. the owners. the blind eye managers & coaches. the gullible fans. the suck-up sports writers. and of course Bud Selig.
what is the common denominator? chasing the almighty dollar!!
Well played, SWL.
"If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong." - a well known stock market guru
by LAcarl519 on Jun 17, 2009 7:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A-Roid and Sammy are ruined now...
…How in the world is it fair for those other players on the list to skate by? I say, release the whole list! Otherwise, Sammy and Alex have been PUNKED!
"I always tell the truth -- Even when I lie"
by calicubfan on Jun 16, 2009 9:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'll always remember Sammy positively.
I still like Sosa and always will.
Free Ronny Cedeno
by Kansas25 on Jun 16, 2009 9:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't know if it was intentional
but we’ll all remember Sammy “positively.”
by Perico on Jun 16, 2009 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If what was intentional?
"I always tell the truth -- Even when I lie"
by calicubfan on Jun 16, 2009 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't Sammy and an associate have a run in w/customs once?
Help me out. Didn’t he have a buddy the Cubs let hang out on the roster for a year or two that had an incident in Toronto, or somewhere, with a bag of steroids?
Sammy got huge. Face it. We all loved Sammy the smiling, lovable player. But, he got huge after he got to the bigs. We can cling to the image of Sammy The Shoeshine Boy, but he was a juicer.
Sammy was just smarter than most of the rest, and he was from the DR. Easy access to the drugs during the offseason. Little supervision. And he was smart enough to have good lawyers that wouldn’t let him testify in English before Congress.
by Nibbles on Jun 16, 2009 10:16 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
yes. remember the skinny kid who got that first hit off "Juicer" Clemens
…oh the irony!
Why Cub fans are so quick to pick on the Bobblehead like changes in Bonds but never blog about them with Sammy always made me chuckle. That video of Sammy from his White Sox days says a lot about what happened to him. Hardly just hanging out at the gym. But better life through chemistry.
"If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong." - a well known stock market guru
by LAcarl519 on Jun 17, 2009 7:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Knew when he hit in that HR derby
It was at miller park he hit it over the slide and after the corked bat incident I knew he was a * I went to his last game as a cub. He left the game early. A metaphor for his Cubs career?
by bubbahaw on Jun 16, 2009 11:27 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Does it really matter at this point?
While there were a few who tried to defend Sosa by pointing out the lack of evidence, I suspect the majority of folks who follow baseball had no doubts about his guilt.
by lookingdeadred on Jun 17, 2009 7:51 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
and, of course
the foundations of justice in this country are irrelevant, right? Crucify him in the court of public opinion! Who cares what the truth is?
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jun 17, 2009 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crystal
"I always tell the truth -- Even when I lie"
by calicubfan on Jun 17, 2009 10:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Way down deep in places you don't like to talk about at parties...
YOU WANT ME ON THIS BOARD! YOU NEED ME ON THIS BOARD!
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 17, 2009 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We are not talking about jail time are we?
We are talking about him being inducted into baseball’s HOF, which is, as I have said many times, is not a legal procedure, despite your attempts to frame it as such.
by lookingdeadred on Jun 17, 2009 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or, to put it even simpler
innocent until proven guilty is not a standard a single HOF writer, commissioner, or fan has to worry about.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 17, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would have thought that was obvious,
but I would have been wrong it seems. Have a good vacation, Worf.
by lookingdeadred on Jun 18, 2009 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As for me, I also experienced the fun of the Summer of '98
But I also figured out a long time ago that we were all being delusional about the sudden spike in homeruns (a livelier baseball?!).
I also was sure that inevitably Sosa would be exposed. It was beyond absurd to think that all of these other bulked up guys suddenly putting up monster HR numbers were juiced but Sammy was the one guy in the group who was clean.
by bluekoolaide on Jun 17, 2009 12:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
why the spike in homers?
The most common explanation intially was a livelier ball (never proven), at least until we found out about the widespread use of PEDs. I did not buy the livelier ball argument, and I don’t think PEDs are the main factor either. A lot of new ballparks have been built and most are much more homerun friendly than their predecssors. But most importantly, pitching has gotten a lot worse. There are guys pitching now who would never have been on big league rosters in decades past. There are 32 teams now when there used to be 16. Talent in general has been diluted, pitching talent, the most difficult to find and develop is even more diluted. IMO this is the biggest reason offensive numbers have spiked in the last 20 or so years … bad pitching.
by lookingdeadred on Jun 18, 2009 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude!
I lose internet access for 2 days and look at what I miss. I just found out. Man… I am just glad the truth is out. It was obvious he was a user… It was unusual how fast he got so big, but what gave it away was when he went to Baltimore. He totally deflated.
Hulk Hogan did the same thing in the early 90’s… they just shrunk and their skin got flabby looking. It was the same thing. Hogan talked about it in his bio, he had to quit cold turkey and it just changed him physically. What’s interesting is that both came after the gov started to seriously look into their respective sports….
by TheHawkRules on Jun 18, 2009 5:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
sammy
who cares anymore. they all did it. you have a problem with it then dont put them in the hall. easy enough. but if you put rug usera in the hall then pete rose better go in too.
by NOMAR on Jun 19, 2009 10:43 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Rug users?
No players with fake hair in the HOF???
j/k
by lookingdeadred on Jun 20, 2009 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
sammy
that would be drug users. sorry about the above mess. i really doubt these guys will go in. the old time players already in the hall will never vote these guys in.
by NOMAR on Jun 19, 2009 10:45 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
rug users
im not above keeping players with toupees out either.
by NOMAR on Jun 21, 2009 9:44 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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