Steroids And Sosa: What's Next?
by Al Yellon on Jun 16, 2009 8:50 PM CDT
in Chicago Cubs News
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PrintWith tonight's rainout (early rumor: makeup on September 3, nothing official yet), there's time to discuss today's revelation that Sammy Sosa appeared on the 2003 list of players who tested positive for steroids.
Thanks to BCB reader mykalmorgan who first posted this late this afternoon right after it was announced, and for the discussion that followed. But I thought this deserved a front-page post, too.
When Mike wrote the BCB top 100 post on Sammy 2 1/2 years ago, there had been no specific allegations regarding Sosa, though there were rumors, as there had been for several players in that era. But here's what's in that post that summed up my feelings at the time:
Of all the players tarred with the steroid brush, Sosa remains the most enigmatic. He never quite attained the comic-book bulk of the others. He never tested positive. There is no anecdotal or investigative account of his usage, as there is for Palmeiro, McGwire, and Bonds. Whatever happened, if it did, happened in the Dominican, and stayed there.
Sosa was the only player in the majors to diminish, every year, in home runs, RBI, and batting average in the span 2002-05, a damning pattern of decline. Only McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds achieved and maintained their historic levels of performance during the unregulated years, they are undoubtedly the greatest sluggers of their generation. But McGwire and Bonds had already established HOF credentials before performance enhancing became rampant, Sosa almost literally came from nowhere. No player, perhaps, has ever risen so high so swiftly, and then declined to his previous level, as swiftly.
But the deeds were done, the numbers are permanent, and awesome in any circumstance. What to do with it? If a definitive answer exists among the myriad suggestions, this author has yet to hear it.
Years after `98, Al and I had our attention called to a book entitled Baseball's Best Shots, a compendium of photos taken from all eras of the game. One spread is a shot of the right-field bleachers at Wrigley during a seventh-inning stretch in `98 (probably the game of September 18). A typically festive, half-dressed, half-bombed crowd gone half-bonkers over what they were seeing.
Except, that is, for two figures, in one corner of the image, bent over a pair of scorecards; literally the only people in the frame whose faces are not visible. Yes, it's us; and we agree, as do our baseball friends, that it's our perfect portrait.
I'd like to remember `98 that way, a season of joy, a season for the ages, fit for groupies and students alike, our season. But I can't, not anymore. It was stolen from us, under false pretenses, and time has not assuaged the anger.
We now know, presuming the report on Sosa is true, that the joy was indeed stolen from us. The numbers put up were put up by cartoon figures, not baseball players as we had known them for decades earlier. I know, I know, amphetamines in the 50s and 60s, other PEDs, other ways of cheating, ad nauseum.
But we were sold a bill of goods. They all swore up and down that they were honest -- "Flintstone vitamins," Sammy told us with a straight face. Now we know that face was lying to us, presuming the report is true.
Here's what I think should be done, and then has to be done by MLB, to put this era in perspective, and then behind us forever.
The 2003 list was supposed to be destroyed and forever private. The fact that privacy was breached with the outing of Alex Rodriguez is reprehensible. The proverbial cat, however, is now out of the bag and cannot be replaced. The 2003 list should be made public -- and sooner rather than later. Because if it isn't, all we'll have is guessing and speculation and names named that might not be on the list. Let's have the truth.
And then, let's have amnesty. For anyone caught before, say, this year -- let's set 2009 as the benchmark -- total and complete amnesty from any punishment (save those who have been punished under the current rules, and if you want to be consistent, set whatever date the 50 and 100 game suspension rule came into being). We'll not talk about "enhanced" sluggers, numbers off the charts; we'll judge them for the Hall of Fame based on the merits as they stand... all the while understanding that from about 1990 through 2005, the numbers can be termed the "Steroid Era", and will show in baseball history as, say, the 1930 season (a hitting aberration -- look it up sometime) currently is viewed. Look at Hack Wilson's 56 HR and 191 RBI that year -- both still Cubs team records. "Oh, that's 1930," the historian will say, discounting that year since it was such a freak.
That, to me, is the best way to reconcile the decade and a half that superstars cheated. They put on a great show, but it was inherently unfair to those who didn't do it -- and with the testing now in place (which has to get stricter, and the players have to tell Don Fehr that he works for them, not the other way around), perhaps we can have a level playing field from here on out.
You may disagree. Have at it.
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I'm not sure how I feel about HOF qualifcations for this period
I was pretty sure Sosa was dirty, but I also remember a time years ago that I took up for him and argued with other fans that he was clean. I don’t think any of these guys will get into the HOF in the near future. They may end up making up some new rules or granting amnesty as you suggest Al, but I think it may be longer than 5-10 years from now.
But we were sold a bill of goods. They all swore up and down that they were honest — “Flintstone vitamins,” Sammy told us with a straight face. Now we know that face was lying to us, presuming the report is true.
Presuming the hearsay is true.
An anonymous lawyer leaking what’s supposed to be part of a confidential report? There’s no way to verify it at all. I require a higher standard of proof. Like, you know, actual proof.
I agree — release the report, issue amnesty. Sosa’s in the HOF either way.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 9:01 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
This is a serious discussion
for serious people. If you honestly will cling to this, then you are an unserious person.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 16, 2009 9:03 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I reject your characterization of myself
as much as I reject your characterization of Sosa.
Proof. Show it to me. Verified drug test that you can positively link to Sosa.
You can’t. Therefore, all you are is a gossip.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Unserious
When you wish to talk big-boy baseball, feel free to join in
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 16, 2009 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
rejected.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Sosa is not a Hall of Famer now
Whether you think so or not, really won’t matter. He won’t get the votes.
we'll see.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Rick Telander alluded to it this morning on the Dan Patrick Show
but the BBWA needs to set a policy on how to vote for these guys in light of the Steroid Era.
If they form a policy, instead of leaving it to the members to form their own opinions, there’s a chance that Clemens, Rodriguez and Sosa do get in
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Bill Potter on Jun 17, 2009 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions
No he's not
He won’t sniff it. The entire basis for his entry into the Hall are his power numbers, and those have been tainted.
No chance at the Hall.
60 HRs
in three consecutive years.
Third ballot.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Because he was a Cub
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 16, 2009 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Arguably
three seasons with 60+ homers is better than one 70 homer year.
However, I’m not suggesting that Bonds won’t get in. I don’t know if he’ll get in or not. I’d think his persona will have something to do with it.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Only way Sosa,
McGuwire, Bonds, Palmeiro get in if the writers from the same era pass away. These guys won’t get in.
We all have been lied to by these clowns. The era was a joke. Check the hat sizes of these guys, Sammy couldn’t use the same helmet from 2003 that he used in 1996.
Sorry, some things are just plain obvious.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
I happen to agree with Gammons for once
At least 10-15 years before they get in, and that’s when the current elderly voters are no longer with us. Then, he’s got a shot.
No way he’ll get in within the first five years. Unlike McGwire and Bonds, Sosa has now tested positive, which Gammons pretty much confirmed on Baseball Tonight.
Unlike McGwire and Bonds, Sosa has now tested positive, which Gammons pretty much confirmed on Baseball Tonight.
Because Gammons can verify an anonymous leak of an anonymous test?
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 10:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually Bonds admitted he used steroidal cream under oath.
Bonds definitely used PEDs and admitted it under oath thus no doubt. Sosa’s name being leaked by an unnamed source? Not exactly proof positive. Sosa’s name could be on that list of players that tested positive but we won’t know for sure unless he admits it or the list is officially released. BTW McGwire’s own brother has claimed they used PEDs together which seems like he would be just as implicated as this leak that fingers Sammy.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jun 17, 2009 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't mind amnesty all that much
Except the HOF should be judged separately.
Baseball can only ban people. It cannot tell writers how to vote. Selig can give all the amnesty he wants, but that shouldn’t sway any writers.
As for fairness to other players, I couldn’t possibly care less.
Some “clean” players knew what was happening. They didn’t say anything.
Many “clean” players benefitted from having steroid user teammates in front or behind them in the order, or in their bullpen to seal victories, or winning games to help them get playoff shares.
There are “clean” players with rings because of Manny, McGwire and Clemens.
Jeff Kent won an MVP because he batted next to Bonds.
I have no sympathy for “clean” players. They should have spoken up years ago.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Agreed on "clean" players.
That’s what I was hinting at when I said players have to stand up and tell Don Fehr he works for them, not the other way around. Some players likely wanted testing ten years ago, but their union “leaders” stonewalled it.
And I speak as a union member who has served on councils and in my union, the leaders don’t tell us what we’re doing. We tell them.
Releasing the 2003 list is a good first step.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
And yet...
I do remember some players that shall go unnamed here speaking out, and then getting blasted for it, if not by players then by fans of the accused.
As a union rep it surprises me you would endorse violating a confidential agreement.
Members of the players association only agreed to testing based upon the results remaining anonymous and being destroyed. MLB failed to hold up their end of the bargain so now all players should lose their confidentiality rights? This was a collectively bargained agreement that has been violated twice in the case of A-Rod and now possibly Sammy. These two members have been denied their rights so now the rest of the players should have their rights violated? This list should be destroyed, more players should not be deprived of their rights to privacy.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jun 17, 2009 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
rec'd
Releasing the list at this point would only call out those who failed the test in 2003. What about 2004? 2005?
Or users in 1990? 1980? 1970?
Where does it end? Certainly not with an incomplete list in 2003.
by dr stabbingworth on Jun 17, 2009 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions
I think we should also consider
That the reason names are trickling out is because some, maybe most, of the names are people we’ve hardly ever heard of.
Releasing the list will end up being very anti-climactic. I’d even wager there are less than 5 and certainly no more than 10, “showstopper” type names on there.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
"MLB failed to hold up their end of the bargain so now all players should lose their confidentiality rights? "
Actually, I believe it was the union who (incomprehensibly) failed to destroy its record of the testing in a timely fashion
that's what I heard on NPR this morning.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions
The players agreed to submit urine samples under the condition that the results would be kept confidential.
That confidentiality should not be violated regardless of who failed them. There have been differing reports as to who is to blame for the results not being destroyed. It doesn’t really matter who is to blame the point would be individual players do not deserve to have their privacy agreement violated.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jun 17, 2009 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions
Agreed
Now I think the union should decide—since the list has been leaked, is it in the best interest of the players to release the entire list? a few thoughts:
1. This is a decision for the players, and players alone. Fan curiosity is not enough to warrant the release of a list compiled under a contract of anonymity.
2. Wouldn’t a majority of players want the list published, so that they can have a clean name?
3. I think it is safe to assume that anyone who tested positive in 2003 was using beforehand—if you hadn’t used prior to 2003, why would you start taking ped’s during the year that testing, however anonymous, was begun?
4. I am deeply ashamed (but, sadly, not surprised) that a fellow lawyer would release such a list in an ad-hoc, anonymous manner.
It might benefit the majority of the players to have the list released since they were clean.
The problem is that the rights of the minority have to be protected as well. We can not violate the rights of the few simply because the majority thinks we should. We don’t know what substances these players may have tested positive for and if there were false positives. I’m pretty sure positive tests weren’t confirmed with follow up tests. You may feel it’s safe to assume anyone who tested positive in 2003 used previously but that would be an unsupported assumption, painting with an overly broad brush. Someone may have been coming off an injury in 2002 and decided to use in order to recover for the 2003 season, especially if 03 was the final year of their contract. It’s not irrational to believe someone may have used since they knew the results were not going to result in punishment.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jun 17, 2009 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions
The problem is...
… that the list is already out. Rules were violated, yes, to do this. You can’t put this away. Having some of the names out and not others violates those individuals’ rights, no?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yes, but I expect it's an issue of
who is releasing the names. If MLB assured privacy, can they be the entity to release? I dunno.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
I think we're hovering around the same point
But I also think a lot of players knew or suspected what was happening and their motives were not solely union solidarity.
Men like Glavine saw their salaries go up because of what Clemens, Bonds and others were getting. I believe some of them are smart enough to know what was happening and smart enough to realize it benefitted them.
So in other words, while I think Fehr and Orza are great at pressuring their members to go along, I think they had some help from “clean” players who wanted the whole thing to continue
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Yet if MLB bans a player, I believe that player is ineligible to be considered for the HoF
so I guess you’re technically correct in that baseball cannot tell writers how to vote. Instead, baseball just doesn’t give the writers a chance. In a sense, baseball is telling writers that they don’t have a vote.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I guess I phrased it badly
Only if baseball bans a player does it get to tell a writer what to do. Otherwise, it doesn’t get to.
In theory, Steve Howe could have been voted into the Hall.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Not to split hairs
but the article says he tested positive for performance enhancing drugs, not necessarily steroids.
And since Worf’s message popped up while in preview; if the superduper majority of 600+ clean players were well aware of what was going on and didn’t bring it to light than I don’t see what we’re getting so worked up over.
You're splitting hairs, I think.
I doubt the PED’s were Flintstone vitamins. We’re likely talking some sort of steroid. We won’t know for sure unless the entire report is released, of course.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Just pull the band aid off already.
Get it out in the open – the damage from 1-2 names leaking every month will harm baseball far longer than putting all the names on the table at once. People will get over the shock of it and move on. As of now, people are continually waiting for the other shoe to drop.
As for any eventual Hall of Fame, those who are found to have done performance enhancers must have that mentioned on their plaques. If they played during the era, but were not found to have used, I can go either way on whether or not their plaque should reflect the fact that they played in the “Steroid Era.”
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
I believe the players only agreed to the drug tests because they were told they were going to be confidential. If you apply to work at Walgreens and take a drug test, it is confidential in the same way, isn’t it?
I would like to know who the users were, too, but I’m pretty sure it’s wholly illegal to reveal them. Just because these two were revealed doesn’t mean it’s legal, and further revelations should only serve to undermine trust for expanding the testing process at all in the future, which means we won’t be able to catch as many of the cheaters we have now.
by msquared10 on Jun 16, 2009 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
What I don't understand
is why the lawyer would only release one name…makes me believe that the NY Times is sitting on the whole list and will release names overtime on slow newsdays….
Regardless, I am not surpised at all….and since I am not a huge Sosa fan to begin with I am not really heartbroken eitehr.
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
that's the part that bothers me too
If this lawyer is familiar with the list, why just Sosa’s name? The slow leak of names is unnecessary.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
And most likely
There are at least 60 names on the list that no one outside of the hardcore fans have heard of
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
So that
would tell me that they are sitting on the whole list…and waiting to release names when it benefits them.
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Jun 16, 2009 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions
exactly
There was a move away from steroids before this season, they leak A-Rods name. Sosa becomes news with his retirement, they leak him.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
Well...
I do think the two sources are different…but if the proposed source of the Sosa leak has intimate knowledge of the test results…he has to have seen more than Sosa.
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Jun 16, 2009 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't know
There aren’t many people that have this list. Otherwise it would be public.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
True
I just know that SI broke the AROD story and NY Times broke the Sosa story. I am assuming they are using different sources. I guess it is also possible that it is the same person and he is selling names to the highest bidder…
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Jun 16, 2009 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Hmmm...
Interesting….
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Jun 16, 2009 9:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe when the Cubs release Miles
his name will be released.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
I think that is a different list
the “Idiots who misused roids and still sucked” list. Neifi is the headline for said list.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
I think that is a different list
the “Idiots who misused roids and still sucked” list. Neifi is the headline for said list.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
Apparently,
Both sources have contacts in the Dominican, as it has now been said that ARod and Sosa worked with the same trainer, who was banned from the game.
I think the holders of that list are protecting some names
While leaking others every once in a while to keep the discussion interesting. Just when the A-Rod crap was leaving, here comes Sosa.
Bottom line- that list of 104 names needs to be printed ASAP. Its unfair to baseball fans not to see it.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
So, more players should have their rights violated in order to placate curious fans?
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jun 17, 2009 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions
So that a small amount of players don't have to take the blame
While others get off. The box is open. Rights already violated.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
So you believe violating more rights actually solves something?
It’s not a very plausible argument to say that since players A & B were violated of their rights then 103 other players should be deprived rights as well. That’s justification for violating a legal agreement. I guess you are for violating the rights of all.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jun 17, 2009 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Please
The guy who has the list will get caught after he releases the whole thing and get his punishment. Just like the Barry Bonds grand jury thing.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
This list is under court jurisdiction.
There is no reason a judge can’t order the list to be destroyed and hold anyone associated with the case under contempt if they talk about the list. Anyone after that point can claim what the names were but there will not be any evidence to back up their claims. Just like right now this current leak about Sammy has absolutely no proof to back it up. The list should be destroyed, that was the agreement. I’m not sure how you can advocate the violation of the rights of others. Do you think you deserve equal protection under the law?
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jun 17, 2009 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
The court has no control over this list
Because there is one person that had it in his/her hand and is leaking it to the New York Times. A judge can order all the other copies of that list destroyed, but it won’t get rid of the leak.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
The point is if the results are destroyed then any leak lacks evidence to back it up.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jun 17, 2009 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Too late for that
We all know the list is out there. Its really hard to discredit that. Its too late to stop this whole thing thats why I just want the whole list released rather than some jackass slowly leaking names to keep the steroid story going for as long as possible.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
Then you are for the privacy rights of all players being violated in order to satisfy your own curiousity.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jun 17, 2009 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions
I believe the list should be released.
But the details on how it should be released should be negotiated between the union and MLB.
Fair enough?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I don't find that fair at all.
You can’t tell someone to agree to submit a urine specimen and that the results will remain anonymous then 6 years later change the agreement. Players were given protection from exposure which is why they agreed to the test. Since when do collectively bargained agreements become non-binding and nullified because of fan curiousity? To rescind that agreement now would be patently unfair and illegal.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jun 17, 2009 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions
You're not even listening
It’s very easy to destroy a single copy of a list and in fact it takes some effort to preserve it for any length of time — but it’s very easy to copy the list and very hard to make sure all the copies are destroyed. A court order doesn’t make it so. If someone has a copy of the list and intends to keep anonymously leaking names from it the court order is meaningless.
I’m not totally sure that releasing all the names is the right thing to do. But I am sure that GP’s position is not close to what you claim it is. When making a decision like this you can’t rely on wishful thinking. You have to realize that the list is probably out of the court’s control.
The list happens to be in possession of the U.S. Attorney's office and that is supposedly where the leaks are coming from.
The judge in the BALCO case could order the list be destroyed and that anyone revealing information from it is in contempt. That would certainly serve as a way to discourage people from talking to the press. Press members can be compelled to reveal sources when those sources have acted illegally. The fact that there are leaks doesn’t mean the leakers shouldn’t be forced to deal with the consequence of their illegal behavior.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jun 17, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Was leaking the information an illegal act?
The MLB and MLBPA had agreed to keep the information private, were other parties bound by the same agreement after the information became part of the BALCO trial?
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
As far as I know attorneys can't leak sealed files to the press at their discretion.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jun 17, 2009 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Were the files/results sealed beyond the MLB/MLBPA agreement?
If only sealed by MLB/MLBPA, not sure what’s illegal.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Well, guess what.
An attorney apparently did exactly that in this case. Without knowing the details, you’re making judgments you apparently don’t have the information to make in this particular case.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Players of all eras did things that weren't allowed, in order to gain a competitive advantage
Anabolic Steriods, Amphetamines, junking the ball, corking bats, etc.
So, where do you go from there? There’s no “list” of these players from past eras. Yet, you can be certain that a number of players in the HOF were guilty of doing such things in past eras.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Steroids are on a whole different level
b/c they literally alter your body and allow you to do things that are otherwise physically impossible. I dont think theyre comparable to tampering the ball or bat
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
but they
can be compared to greenies. If a player was more alert because he was taking greenies, then that had to enhance his performance. There was a reason they took it…
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Jun 16, 2009 9:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Right, but
I think the advantages of steroids are greater, visibly increasing ones muscle mass, strength and speed are greater than simply giving one a boost. The advantages are more apparent, hence the greater uproar
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Steriods got more pub
because it is a sexy topic and more noticable to the naked eye.
You can be the strongest guy in the world but if you are tired and swinging a slow bat you are not going to have much success.
Steriods and HGH are clearly the leader in the clubhouse when it comes to PEDs but greenies don’t deserve a free pass
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Jun 16, 2009 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Yet, tampering the ball or the bat are clearly methods of cheating
And some players cheated in this way for nearly their entire careers.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Really?
Gaylord Perry has 310 wins, by throwing Vaseline balls… and he’s not afraid to admit it. I’d say junking the ball had a huge impact on his performance.
Without any doubt, though, the greatest cheater of all was Gaylord Perry.
Perry spent two years bouncing between the minors and the Giants before he started cheating. He then carved out a 22-year career that put him in Cooperstown. Perry wasn’t only a great cheater, though, he was a great pitcher with enormous talent: he won two Cy Young Awards, becoming the first pitcher to receive the honor in both leagues, finished in the top 10 in ERA 11 times and strikeouts 12 times, and went to the All-Star Game five times. He was a better-than average pitcher as late as 1980, when he was 40 and had been pitching for 18 seasons.
Though he’s known as a spitball artist, Gaylord Perry didn’t throw a spitter when he cheated, for the most part. He threw greaseballs. Vaseline was his mainstay, but as a great cheating mind, Perry was open to experimentation. “Man, I tried everything,” Perry once said. “When my wife was having babies the doctor would send over all kinds of stuff and I’d try that, too. Once I even used fishing line oil.”
Perry cheated as much for the psychological effect as for the movement on the ball. Opposing hitters knew he threw greaseballs, and Perry loved it. Perry’s success drove rule changes in 1973 about what pitchers could do while on the mound. Section 8.02 is made much more clear if you imagine exactly what Gaylord Perry would have done had those specific instances not been spelled out: 8.02 (a) 3: "expectorate on the ball, either hand or his glove … "
Even with baseball making rules changes to catch up to him, the next year Perry published an autobiography titled “Me and the Spitter.” In his book he talked about his career doctoring balls, and wrote that from that point afterwards he would be a clean and law-abiding citizen of the game … and then went on to throw the greaseball for another nine seasons.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
He cheated and it put him in the HOF. If Bonds, Clemens, Sosa don't belong then he doesn't either.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jun 17, 2009 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions
You're absolutely right
It is a joke and a disgrace that Gaylord Perry got in.
But because a bunch of gin-soaked scumbag writers put him in, today’s writers are supposed to uphold that?
You know when a double-standard is acceptable?
When the first standard sucks.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I agree that double standards shouldn't be acceptable.
Many people calling for the exclusion of steroid users actually seem to ignore that the Hall of Fame is filled with cheaters. Baseball is not some sacrosanct game of purity that many idealize it to be. The problem with excluding steroid users is that we don’t know who used and who didn’t. If you want to exclude players that were suspended because of positive tests fine but it seems unfair to exclude players that are victims of innuendo. Let’s also not forget that Bud Selig had doctors tell team physicians and trainers that steroids were safe and that they should tell their players the benefits of steroid use. MLB actively encouraged players to use and now the players are being subject to what appears to be a modern day witch hunt.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jun 17, 2009 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm saying that in some cases
a double-standard IS acceptable.
I see no reason why today’s writers should have to kowtow to those who were stupid enough to put Gaylord Perry in the Hall of Fame.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
You are certainly entitled to feel that double-standards work.
My question to you would be who gets in? I assume you think Sammy, Bonds and Clemens should be out but what about Piazza and Pudge? There is plenty of rumors and visual evidence to believe that Piazza and Pudge used PEDs, do they get excluded? Ken Griffey Jr. broke down like a guy that might have used but he didn’t appear to be overly muscular, was he clean? We don’t know, do we.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jun 17, 2009 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions
I personally think
Sammy, Bonds, Clemens and McGwire should be out. Pudge is on a bunch of lists.
I guaran-damn-tee that between now and the five year waiting period Piazza will end up on a list.
I think writers can judge as they like. I personally would keep them out, but what I’m saying is that writers shouldn’t feel compelled to vote them in just because Perry weaseled his way in.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
And this is the conversation that I really wanted to have.
Players in every era of baseball of been cheating. Some of those players are in the HOF. So, where do you start re-writing baseball history? If you penalize the players of the Steriod era, then you need to go back through the history books and penalize players of past eras who used amphetamines, junked balls, corked bats, etc.
Heck, Norm Cash admitting to using a corked bat for the entire 1961 season, when he “suddenly” hit 41 home runs and led the American League with a .361 batting average and 193 hits.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Just because you are strong
does not mean you are going to become a great baseball player or even an average baseball player. The general public latch onto things that they can see and also to things that they have had rammed done their throats by the media.
Steriods certainly have enhanced performance but to not acknowledge the impacts that other things had on the game pre steriods is just ignorant.
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Jun 16, 2009 9:58 PM CDT up reply actions
I have made this argument
many times. The greenies in particular were introduced into the game when the players returned from WWII.
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Jun 16, 2009 9:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Yep, because they were all given greenies on the battle field.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Our victory over the Axis was tainted!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jun 16, 2009 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Hah, really showed them Krauts!
I'm a lefty, maybe Lou should give me a shot for a position in the bullpen!!
pfff
it wasn’t illegal to use them then. And without a positive test result, I won’t believe they used.
by chitownhawkeye on Jun 16, 2009 9:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Does that mean we should recognize France
as German territory?
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Bullcrap
Slapping a little Vaseline on a baseball or being hopped up on aphetamines is a LONGGGGGGGGG ways off from taking performance enhancing drugs and steroids. Maybe you should acquaint yourself with the topic. Maybe you should read about steroids and the Olympics over the years for starters to understand the extreme benefit they can have in strength, performance and recovery time.
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
It takes more than strength to be successful in baseball
Players use amphetamines to be the player they can’t be when they’re tired," said the veteran, who asked that his name not be used.
For decades, amphetamines — “speed” on the street — have helped baseball players face the rigors of their sport: Six-game weeks. Day games immediately following night games. Cross-country flights. Hundreds of repetitions in the batting cage and batter’s box, on the mound and in the field. The stress of a pennant race in the August heat.
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Jun 16, 2009 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Damn
that was supposed to block quoted…crap
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Jun 16, 2009 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions
There
has been a suspicous uptick in ADHD exemptions filled with the MLB Offices since greenies were banned
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Jun 16, 2009 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions
OK... Mr. I'm right and everyone else is wrong no matter what.
Too bad I can’t ask Joe Niekro, Whitey Ford, Don Sutton, or Gaylord Perry to participate in this discussion.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
I don't see how you make that distinction
when it comes to doctoring the ball. Spit, tar and nail files served one purpose, to allow the ball to do something that it could not have done without that aid. The only real difference is that there wasn’t long term damage to the pitcher when he gained the extreme benefit.
by chitownhawkeye on Jun 16, 2009 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions
One thing in his defense
As spurious as it might sound, the test was from 2003, so it is plausible that that is the only time he used. Not likely, but this test was from 03, so I suppose anythings possible
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
It's also plausible
That I will have sex with Anne Hathaway based on the premise that I am male and she is female.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Ok thats funny
Best of luck to you in your quest to bed Anne Hathaway
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
I dont believe it, but its plausible
the test is only from one year, you cant use that to damn his entire career. Now I dont believe this, but again, this test is from one year.
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
and this
is conversation for serious people?
Right.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Again
The test results are from one year, so it doesnt impugn his entire career, I think tis a fair point to make, I dont believe he was clean prior to 2003, but facts are facts
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Good point
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
my reply
was to Worf. I’m not disagreeing with you.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 10:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Sam-ME and connection to Major League Baseball is out the window
The worst kept secret in baseball was that Sammy Sosa was poster child for the steriod era. He’ll never be welcomed back into the Cub fold ala Ernie, Fergie, Billy, Ryno, etc. And he will never get into Cooperstown.
Steroids, corked bat, lying before Congress, quitting on his teammates the final game of the season…the man was a lying scum of a fraud. Good riddance. As far as I’m concerned I hope the United States revokes his visa to be able to ever travel back into this country. Lying before Congress should carry SOME penalty, don’t you think?
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
Bill Clinton disagrees with you.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jun 16, 2009 9:30 PM CDT up reply actions
I would also like to know the penalty
if Congress lies to us.
"I'll never forget how I felt last October." ~Kosuke Fukudome
Exactly what are you basing this prosecution on? You do realize that this list was supposed to be a
blind study to determine the extent of the steroid problem in baseball in 2003. This list was never supposed to be released and it was never intended to be some vehicle to “out” players. You have heard of due process haven’t you? Do you think that this list would hold up as evidence in court?
This is the problem I have with this list. It has morphed into something of which it was never intended. The players were assured that they were giving samples in good faith and that their names would never be revealed. To come back after the fact and use this information to condemn players has a bad odor to it. Some feel that the ends justify the means, but there is such a thing as giving your word and sticking to it. I am not condoning the use of PEDs and anyone who uses should be punished, but this is turning pretty ugly. I feel that the pendulum has swung a bit to far because everyone involved was asleep at the switch. The media seems especially intent on redeeming themselves. The attitude seems to be that if they can root out the original culprits, their contribution to the original problem will be somewhat lessened.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jun 17, 2009 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
well said.
rec’d.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Crazy thought
Remember the fake list of the Mitchell Report like 2 hours before the real one came out? Do we know how many names were on there, maybe that was the 2003 test leaked and we didn’t know it.
Just a crazy thought, prolly not remotely true.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
Wasn't Kerry Wood on that list?
Just think of the discussion that would generate here. It would probably make this Sosa discussion look tame in comparison.
by LT on Jun 16, 2009 9:27 PM CDT up reply actions
I think so
I’m having trouble finding the whole list right now. I know Prior and Wood were on it. Sosa and A-Rod too.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
good find
I think I only read 87 names, still. I’ll have to think how crazy i am.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
No A-Rod on that list
So I’m that theory is shot.
Milton was on that fake list though. Kind of made me laugh bc it would explain a lot.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
it would?
Steroids are supposed to make you stronger and bigger — not more liable to pull a ligament running out a bunt.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Steroids break your body down
and cause little nagging injuries
My point was about him being crazy anyway.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
Varitek and Pujols were also on the fake list.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
The damn media is just pulling our teeth out
I’m sure this is just a way for them to keep us interested in the whole debacle. By releasing names periodically, the story never dies and the media has something to talk about until the next one is released. I am fed up with this (pardon my french) shit; just release the names, now. Get it over with so we can finally put this issue to rest…
I'm a lefty, maybe Lou should give me a shot for a position in the bullpen!!
One person holds this list
They are leaking names to the New York Times when it will bring them the most benefit and news. It is illegal for them to have that list, so they won’t reveal themselves.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
If the government wants, it can whittle down the list of possible leaks in this case.
It’s an attorney connected with the numerous appeals from the union, trying to get the list destroyed. Whether it’s a clerk who went through the file cabinets somewhere or someone with actual connections to the case, they could be found if the government really wants to find the leak.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
I hope they find the leak
Though they might cover up the names then. Now I’m torn. Get the names out, then arrest the leak.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
I can see a scenario in which the leak gets all the names out, then is caught
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
this is not a media conspiracy
If a reporter had the full list, he or she would write about it, because it would be a bigger story. Instead of just getting Sosa, the reporter could get Sosa and A-Rod.
And, frankly, the media doesn’t need “something to talk about until the next name is released.” That doesn’t make any sense.
So if this list was going to be destroyed...
we never would have known if A-Rod or Sosa juiced. Ignorance is bliss?
I'm a lefty, maybe Lou should give me a shot for a position in the bullpen!!
I'd rather know
but…I would much, much, much rather know the whole list than this sorry trickle of information. Just be done with it so we can move one, rather than endlessly speculating
by chitownhawkeye on Jun 16, 2009 9:38 PM CDT up reply actions
won't happen I don't think
This person holds what is potentially the final piece to the steroid puzzle. I think they have an interest in keeping steroids in the news. By slowly leaking this list, that is possible for a long time.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
It is equivalent
to having proprietary data…they are the “only” ones who have it and can keep cashing it in without having to make the information public domain.
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Jun 16, 2009 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Since posting past comments is in now in vogue...
This (game) needs an enema!
Publish all the names. Give amnesty, or allow the records to stand and don’t block individuals named from the HOF.
You can’t go backwards in time, re-write the history books or put asterisks next to all the names. It was the steroid-era. Get the names out there, purge it all, get it over with and move on. This piece-meal approach (and the Mitchell report was a white-wash of sorts) is a waste of time.
The last few days I defended my view that Sosa used ’roids, and taken a fair share of abuse for that view. That said though, it was the steroid-era. Sosa had a great career and what he did on the field of play had a strong role in resurrecting fan interest in this great game.
Sammy Sosa belongs in the HOF as soon as he is eligible. My view won’t change if they publish his name tomorrow as a confirmed steroid user. - by DrCrawdad on Feb 10, 2009
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
Which would be how?
I’m asking that seriously. There hasn’t been a standard for punishment, not on steroids or any previous types of cheating.
by chitownhawkeye on Jun 16, 2009 9:40 PM CDT up reply actions
If it were limited...
… then that approach would work. There are too many players who used them AND too many people are complicit in the cover-up (owners, union leaders, trainers and the players).
Sosa cheated. I said that years and years ago and was attacked for saying that. But it’s not just Sosa and a few others. Name the names. Allow them into the HoF and always know that it was the steroids era. Move on.
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
OK, Mr. Sox Fan...
… your opinion wanted. Do you think Frank Thomas will appear on that list?
Personally, I don’t think so. What do you say?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
So, what you're saying is that he should be put into the Hall of Fame
along with many other cheaters from the past?
VITAMINS HAH
SAMMY is a CHEATER, like we didnt kno LOL. All my memories of 98’ are burned!
LET RONNY IN!!!
Posting all the names (as Al suggests) doesn't diminish Sosa's guilt
Al, not sure I understand the angle you’ve got working there. Are you already trying to rationalize this thing?!? If I have misinterpreted then please explain for me to understand more clearly.
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
The list needs to be released because of the ramifications of a positive test. The consensus seems to
be that if a person tested positive, he should not be cosidered for the hall. If that is the case, then all the names on the list must be released. It is unfair to comdemn A-rod and Sosa for testing positive in 2003 and letting the rest of the player on the list walk. This list needs to be released so baseball can move on from here. As long as the list remains out there, the potential of a name coming out and starting up the talk exists. Baseball now has the toughest drug policy of all the major sports. It should not be dragged through the mud and accused of having more of a steroid problem everytime a name from this list is released.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jun 16, 2009 11:47 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
You seem to be missing the point that this test was supposed to be a blind survey of usage throughout the league.
It was never intended to determine what specific players were using and players were given immunity from punishment. You can not later go back and try to punish these players. It’s illegal and a violation of the agreement the players made with MLB. If you want to exclude players that tested positive in subsequent tests fine but releasing this list won’t end speculation as to who used and who didn’t. Nothing will end speculation, there will be players considered cheats whether or not they ended up on that list.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jun 17, 2009 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think a violation of the agreement between MLB and MLBPA
is an illegal act.
Is there something else to make leaking illegal?
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Illegally leaking about a list of illegal leakers?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jun 17, 2009 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Can't you get arrested for doing that in an alley?
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
It appears that someone from the U.S. Attorney's office did illegally leak confidential information to the press.
Are you unaware that lawyers can not disclose sealed evidence in a court case before it even goes to trial? Whomever leaked this info most likely would be held in contempt of court and thrown in jail if their identity became known to the judge. If MLB released the names of the players they would be in violation of their legal agreement with the MLBPA and subject to legal recourse from the MLBPA. I’m not sure if you have a point or if you are simply attempting to refute what I say even though the facts back me up.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jun 17, 2009 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions
I replied below, were these results sealed by
a jurisdiction beyond MLB/MLBPA?
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
What facts?
If you have information that proves the US Attorney’s office leaked confidential info to the press, post a link.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It's been widely reported that lawyers leaked the info to the NYT on condition of anonymity.
.
The lawyers who allegedly had knowledge of Sosa’s inclusion on the 2003 list did not know the substance for which Sosa tested positive. They spoke on condition of anonymity, because they did not want to be identified as discussing material that is sealed by a court order.
This is from the Carrie Muskat article on the subject that can be found here:
http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090616&content_id=5355568&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
I’m not in a court of law here thus I’m not attempting to “prove” anything, just backing up the obvious. The lawyers that have access to these sealed documents work for the U.S. Attorney as they are the ones prosecuting the BALCO case. I think I’ve backed up my points pretty thoroughly. I suppose I’m supposed to list the statute that’s violated when an attorney leaks evidence that’s sealed by a court order. I find it interesting that I’m even being questioned on this as it’s practically common knowledge by now.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jun 17, 2009 10:58 PM CDT up reply actions
In case one source wasn't sufficient.
Government agents initially obtained search warrants in 2004 for the drug-testing records of 10 players as part of the BALCO investigation that led to Bonds’ indictment, but they found the more expansive list on a spreadsheet, obtained additional warrants and seized the larger group of records.
The union went to court, arguing the search was illegal, and three U.S. District judges agreed. The government appealed, and a panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled for the government, but the entire 9th Circuit threw out the reversal and decided to hear the case itself. The hearing was in December, and the decision is pending. The losing side could then appeal to the Supreme Court.
The government a.k.a. U.S. Attorney’s office is in possession of the list thus lawyers leaking names off the list would be working for the U.S. Attorney.
Full article here:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4264062
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jun 17, 2009 11:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Yep
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
Bonds and Sosa both caught
and McGwire pretty much a roider too
I'm a lefty, maybe Lou should give me a shot for a position in the bullpen!!
could u imagine
if it came out HE WAS on roids? Oh man what then LOL not that he was
LET RONNY IN!!!
by Harry Seaward on Jun 16, 2009 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions
That would be crazy.
Who would hold the record for single-season home runs? I know you’re j/k, but it would be interesting nonetheless.
Cubs record since April 2004: 4-0
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 16, 2009 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Who was before him???
Ruth was a big dude, he clean? JKJK this could go on all nite!
LET RONNY IN!!!
by Harry Seaward on Jun 16, 2009 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Ruth was okay
Steroids weren’t invented back then.
"Scott, if your life had a face, I would punch it. I would punch your life in the face."
Ye Olde Nerve Tonic?
Or am I confusing the Simpsons with real life again?
by chitownhawkeye on Jun 16, 2009 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions
everyone knows hotdog and beer is definitely codeword for
steroids and compulsive gambling….duh!
I'm a lefty, maybe Lou should give me a shot for a position in the bullpen!!
Roger Maris set the record in 1961
A time when amphetamines were overwhelmingly popular among baseball players. What if some hypothetical list of amphetamine users included Maris’ name on it?
Would you change you opinion?
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Steroids and 'roids are not equal.
Plus players in the ’roid era were using ’roids AND stimulants (that are now banned or illegal or both).
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
you mean amphetimines and Steroids right?
I'm a lefty, maybe Lou should give me a shot for a position in the bullpen!!
Yes, thanks!
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
Only a fool would equate steroids with greenies
I think some of you PhD’s need to bone up on the effects of amphetamines versus performance enhancing drugs. Taking greenies is the relevant equivalent of having multiple cups of black coffee all at once.
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
More or less
It’s a lot different from adding tons of power and muscle and improving your vision and bat speed and keeping your body from breaking down.
Precisely
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
You are so narrow minded...
Greenies, a nickname coined by ballplayers because of the color of the pills, were introduced to the game in the 1940s. These amphetamines speed up the heart rate and have been proven to fight fatigue, increase alertness and sharpen reaction time. Athletes have used them to challenge the limits of endurance — and mask the accompanying pain.
I will provide you the link again in case you want to engage in an intelligent debate…
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Jun 16, 2009 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't bother
Already the pro-Sammy crowd is trying to swamp with rationalizations for why steroids really aren’t so bad after all.
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
I hate Sammy Sosa
but I also hate ignorant people who refuse to acknowledge that pre-Steriods and during steriods there were other things that players did to enhance their performance. In addition, I hate people who but words into my mouth. I have never said that Steriods were good. In fact, I said they were bad.
Folks latch onto steriods as the be all and end all of performance enhancing drugs because they can see the physical transformations and have had the story rammed down their throats by the media.
I have also said that if people think that the current Steriods testing is catching everyone they are sorely mistaken. There is no way that the testers can get out in front of the chemists so they will always be chasing this issue.
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Jun 16, 2009 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions
+1000000
Publishing the list only punishes a small subset of players who were caught during one year. For all we know, PEDs have been in the game for 20+ years. It doesn’t make sense to punish one slice of MLB, especially considering the tests were anonymous.
by dr stabbingworth on Jun 17, 2009 8:51 AM CDT up reply actions
No...
Just trying to figure out where to draw the line in the record book. Players have been cheating as long as the game has been played. But, no need to keep an open mind, since yours is already made up.
And, Tom House would like a word with you, since he’s the only player from the 60’s and 70’s who’s admitted to steroid use… even though the roids were there.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Pretty funny stuff here...
I think some of you PhD’s need to bone up on the effects of amphetamines
Taking greenies is the relevant equivalent of having multiple cups of black coffee all at once
Talk about needing to educate one’s self…
by dr stabbingworth on Jun 17, 2009 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions
I want the list of players released
but a part of me is scared that another big piece of my heart will be ripped out if another one of my iconic heroes is on the list. Yes, I know it’s a bit naive at this point to hold on to the hope that all the players I’ve ever loved are clean, but especially since 2 of the 104 names have been released, I think it’s the best thing for MLB going forward to have the list revealed.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
Who will release it?
The union will never give it up. MLB can’t. So, outside a court order forcing the list public (not likely), the only way anyone will see the rest of the list will be an anonymous leak.
I’m not saying that it makes it less truthful, but it really bothers me that the best sources of information come from a leaked list by an anonymous lawyer (who should be disbarred) and from grand jury testimony, which should never have been revealed.
Well...
Unless steroids can be proven to enhance the ability to score with babes at 2:00 AM at local watering holes then I don’t think you have to worry too terribly about Mark Grace being on the list.
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
by BLou on Jun 16, 2009 10:04 PM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
Name speculation
In addtion to those we already know about … Giambi, Bonds, McGwire, Clemens, Palmiero, Sosa … I’ll state with strong opinion that the list includes the following names.
- Mike Piazza
- Pudge Rodriquez
- Juan Gonzalez
- Ruben Sierra
- Jeremy Giambi
- Jose Guillen
- Carlos Delgado
- Pedro Martinez
- Gary Sheffield
- Moises Alou
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
BALCO got Gary Sheffield
and Jeremy Giambi. I think I’ve seen Pudge on that list.
I agree with every name here.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
and THIS
is where malicious gossip leads.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 10:33 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
The Drewishdrewid still isn't convinced that Neal Armstrong landed on the moon in 1969
Give it a rest. Sosa took steroids and lied about it before U.S. Congress. In addition to playing with a corked bat and quitting on his teammates. You’re hero (like you) has been neutered.
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
your
thank you very much.
Show me the proof. Show me a verified test result that can be linked to Sosa. Hell, show me that for Bonds or Mac.
Prove it, and I’ll believe. Till then, you’re nothing more than a little old lady tutting about the kids down the street having more fun than you are.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions
It's official !!!
One of the oars is now completely out of the water !!!
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
by BLou on Jun 16, 2009 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
tut tut
go drink your tea now, Miss Pennyworth.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 10:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I wouldn't use the names Bonds and Mac
Since they have about 400 pages each devoted to their use of roids.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
have their test results
been officially revealed? With identifiers that confirm that the results are theirs?
There’s a thing called the burden of proof in this country. The prosecution has to meet it, not the defense.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 10:45 PM CDT up reply actions
It's all a big conspiracy man !!!
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
that you don't understand this concept
you have already proved over and over again. You’re quite happy to level baseless accusations against players, and always have been.
Nevertheless, the burden still rests with the prosecution. An anonymous leak that cannot be verified does not qualify.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions
jeezus give it up
you are such a homer … I liked Sosa just as much as the rest of the group here — at one point or another — but the guy juiced. the guy corked his bat. face facts — he’s a damn cheater. he wanted to be loved by fans and he was for a short time. but the party’s over.
this really should not come as that big of a surprise to you. then again, you seem to be delusional.
Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.
by junkhorse on Jun 17, 2009 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm going to kind of side with Drew for a minute here.
I personally think Sosa did use PEDs, and in all probability his name was on the positive list, as this source claims. But what I want to know is, why does this rat get to remain anonymous while Sosa’s reputation gets destroyed with no actual list having been released to the public? This anonymous source is violating the privacy of players selectively yet he suffers no repercussions from his actions. That is kind of twisted.
"I'll never forget how I felt last October." ~Kosuke Fukudome
i agree to disagree
so, you’re saying that you agree that he used PEDs, but you’re upset because the source remains anonymous, while Sammy’s career goes in the pooper? well, i’m sorry. most sources remain anonymous for years (see Deepthroat). Sosa tarnished his own career. he did this to himself and immediately looked guilty when he “forgot” how to speak English in front of Congress.
Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.
I've got my doubts
I seen a tape where five cops beat up a black dude and they said that they had a reasonable doubt. I got my doubts too! All right?
How come they never found Biggie and Tupac’s murderers, but they could arrest O.J. the next day?
Nicole Simpson can’t rap! I want justice!
by dr stabbingworth on Jun 17, 2009 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions
delusional
to want actual proof?
I weep for the future of the justice system in this country.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
i weep for you
because you can’t see the forest through the trees.
Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.
right.
because facts don’t matter. Let the court of public opinion decide.
The court of public opinion being the millions of people who will get upset about a perceived upset on American Idol, but not vote in presidential elections.
There is no PROOF. You keep saying that you know what you know and you have no PROOF. If it were you or your son or daughter, you’d be very unhappy at being convicted without any PROOF.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions
so ...
do you just think that someone is out to “get” people? that there’s just some jackass out there that is saying this stuff to crap all over someone’s career? Sosa has been irrelevant since he walked out on the Cubs … mind you, he walked out on this team you love so much – yet you’re here defending him to the bitter end.
nevertheless, you think MLB wants people to tarnish this game anymore … that MLB likes having it’s heroes diminished to liars and cheaters … c’mon man. what – you need Budster to go up there and say – yes, Sosa, Bonds, McGwire, et. al. all did roids. they’re all a bunch of cheaters. he’s not going to do that. you’re not going to get that. the game is so badly damaged that why would he just kill it altogether? not to mention, this happened all on his watch.
the proof is in the statistics and in the size of the player. look at these guys their first few years in the league. spindly beanpoles who all of a sudden beef up to the size of linebackers and crush the ball 500-plus feet. you honestly think that Flintstone vitamins and creatine supplements did that?
Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.
by junkhorse on Jun 17, 2009 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think
that weightlifting and being able to dedicate hours a day in the offseason to exercise can do a lot. My wife lost over 75 pounds that way, and SHE’s not a baseball player.
Sosa’s ending with the Cubs is confusing, and there’s blame on both sides. That does nothing to what he did FOR the Cubs and for baseball.
But in the end, none of that MATTERS.
I. Want. PROOF. You have none. Pictures are not proof, unless they’re pictures of him injecting himself or being injected. Statistics are not proof unless you’re willing to believe that any player who has a good year or a bad year, gains weight or loses weight, is on the juice.
I’m not willing to believe that.
You have no proof. Leaked anonymous reports are not proof.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions
gee he's done so much for the Cubs
in that he’s now left an even darker mark on the franchise than he had left before this news broke. he’s not well liked by any, except by you apparently. do you not recall that a Cub happily smashed his infamous boombox to pieces on Sammy’s last day as a Cub?
Do you not see the transformation of a player that was mediocre at best to a superstar? do you not believe the statistics jumping from 15 HRs in 1990, to 33 HRs in 1993, to 40 HRs in 1996, to 66 HRs in 1998? do you not see a stunning jump in those numbers?
Next you’re going to tell me Brady Anderson’s 50 HR 1996 season was a fluke … only to hit 18 the following year. He used steroids. Oh, oh, there’s no PROOF – other than the guy’s body changed dramatically as did his statistics. But as you said, it’s not a photo of a needle in his ass, so it didn’t happen.
Sosa is a fraud. He always has been a fraud and will remain a fraud. He was never a good ballplayer – he was just a good hitter, and now, even that is questionable. He never altered his swing, he never had great mechanics.
In reaction to yesterday’s news, Brian McRae, Sosa’s former teammate with the Cubs, told USA Today’s Bob Nightengale that, "It’s not like it’s a shocker. I think with the top 10 guys you most suspected, he was one of the top three or four on everybody’s list. It’s not like you were thinking, ‘Nah, he never did anything.’ The guys that were around him, and saw him every day, you suspected something. He just didn’t look right."
Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.
by junkhorse on Jun 17, 2009 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
alright.
Presuming this actually happened:
Court documents show Barry Bonds tested positive for three types of steroids, and his personal trainer once told his business manager in the Giants’ clubhouse how he injected the slugger with performance-enhancing drugs “all over the place.”
Prosecutors plan to use those 2000-2003 test results and other evidence, detailed in documents released Wednesday, at Bonds’ trial next month to try to prove he lied when he told a federal grand jury in December 2003 that he never knowingly used steroids.
Then, that’s proof about Bonds.
I’m not entirely sure your second link about McGwire is as compelling. It’s basically all hearsay from his brother. If it lines up with other evidence, then it’s more solid, but it’s not federal court documents. Lots of famous people have relatives looking to cash in.
And, of course, there’s neither court documents nor an unscrupulous brother when it comes to Sosa — just another anonymous accusation that cannot be verified.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Bonds admitted in court to using steroids
And since you seem intent on making the court of public opinion into the court of law. Wouldn’t McGwire’s brother’s “testimony” be the same as an eyewitness to a robbery or a murder? What about the andro that was found in McGwire’s locker?
If you want to hold out on Sosa thats fine. Just don’t try and defend two of the guiltiest guys in the sport.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
He has to hold out on everyone
Otherwise his defense of Sosa looks even more pathetic.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
There are better names to argue proof about than
Bonds and McGwire. Once they start writing books about your use of roids, I think they have enough evidence.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
really?
because Nancy Reagan, Bill Clinton, Princess Diana and a few others would like a word with you.
A book is simply something that someone wrote. There’s no guarantee that a book is binding evidence.
IF there is real proof that Mac did steroids, like there appears to be proof of Bonds, then fine. I don’t exactly follow this story all that much.
But I do know that so far, there’s no such proof about Sammy.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Then by all means argue about Sammy all you want
Just stick to that though. Every single person in the world besides Tony LaRussa knows that McGwire used.
Public opinion isn’t a court of law. If you want to say that this test result shouldn’t result in Sosa going to prison, fine that is actually a valid arguement IMO. The problem is that once something like this comes out, thats it as far as HOF and public opinion go.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
Public Opinion is simply mob group-think.
I still think Sosa goes to the Hall.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions
but McGwire's brother
didn’t “testify”. He wrote a book. That’s not legally binding testimony.
I was under the impression that andro was legal.
I’m not defending anyone — I don’t think Sosa needs defense from anonymous, possibly malicious rumors that cannot be verified. I’m saying that the burden of proof falls on the prosecutor. Sammy Sosa cannot prove he “never” took steroids — you can’t prove a negative.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm nearly drowning in all this rain here in Bolingbrook
How could we ever have played a game?
Oh wait, no rain since they called it.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
I want Sosa's visa to travel into the United States revoked
This scumbag had the audacity to lie before Congress. This is a very serious thing. So serious that he should never be permitted to ever travel into this country again.
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
I might be wrong
But didn’t Tejada get in trouble for lying to congress? And he got slapped on the wrist
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
I'd flag this
if I weren’t laughing at it so much.
As if this is about what you want.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 10:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Flag away o' strange one
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
by BLou on Jun 16, 2009 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I don't care how you
analyze it. Sosa is an embarrassment to the Cubs and major league baseball. He took steriods, then he lied about it under oath to the United States Congress. The only hall he belongs in is the hall of shame.
What’s wrong with some of you? MLB sold us a lemon, and charged us an enormous amount of money to drive it. There may be some grey areas, particularly when it comes to punishment. But the idea of putting Sammy Sosa in the hall of fame is shameful to anyone who supports such an abomination.
But the idea of putting Sammy Sosa in the hall of fame is shameful to anyone who supports such an abomination.
I’m not sure this means what you think it does. I’m not being factious, I’m trying to suss out what you’re saying.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 16, 2009 10:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't worry
Sammy Sosa wil never come remotely close to being voted into the Hall of Fame. Or be welcomed back into the Cub family and immortalized.
Steroids, corked bat, quit on his teammates, lied under oath before Congress. Add it all up and he is the most egregious of all these steroid frauds. Which is REALLY saying something. He’ll live out his shriveled years in the Dominican hopefully never to be seen or heard from again.
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
Sign of the times
You guys are all ridiculous.
There are still 100+ names on that list. The “leaker” will slowly release each name before every media matchup this year. I fully expect Pujols, Berkmann, Lee, etc. to be eventually outed.
Everybody took PEDs. MLB had no rules against them. Players did what it took to become a star.
Yes, Sosa’s name was leaked before the Cubs/Sox series. Wait until you see all the other names before throwing him under the bus.
I don't think Berkman is on the list
Or he is really stupid to be speaking out today if he knew that his time was short. I seriously doubt he’s going to turn up.
Raffy
Raffy was after the fact. He testified, then failed the test.
Berkman, on the other hand, would likely know if he already HAD failed the test in 2003, which is why I don’t think his name will appear on this list.
That doesn’t mean I have an opinion about whether or not he actually used, but that I just don’t think he’s on the 2003 list.
So you think Raffy
never used Roids until after he testified?
by LT on Jun 17, 2009 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions
Raffy/Berkman
It is one thing to lie when there was no process in place to prove you wrong.
It is another thing to lie if you know there is an existing record that contradicts your statement and that record might become public at any time.
Not supporting either, but you have to be pretty stupid to lie when you know there is proof you are lying.
which, to me, is another mark in Sosa's favor.
He was pretty vehement that he didn’t do them in 2005.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions
Palmeiro
tested positive AFTER his testimony.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes...
and that was the FIRST time he’d ever used it.
Just like that corked bat was the FIRST time Sosa had ever used one in a game.
Psst… your wife didn’t just cheat on you once, you know.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 17, 2009 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
P R O O F
show it to me. Till then, you got nothing.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions
Drew . . . I held out hope for Sammy just like you
but at this point there really isn’t any reason to do it much longer. I’m hoping we get a statement in a day or two, but that honestly has very little chance of redeeming him.
When prosecutors charge a guy for murder, they don’t always end up with a video of the murder taking place. Sometimes the evidence is pretty overwhelming without it. In this case, we have a major publication making a bold accusation about Sammy. If they had their doubts about their source, they wouldn’t do it – Sammy could sue for libel. If A-Rod had any doubt about whether he could possibly clear his name using a defense like yours, he would have done it. He couldn’t, so why would you expect Sammy to be any different?
Good god, I hope you never serve on a jury
If you’re willing to convict a guy based on circumstantial evidence leaked by an anonymous informant, then I hope funding for the Innocence Project picks up quite a bit.
by dr stabbingworth on Jun 17, 2009 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Wow
I’m done trying to empathize with the Sammy defenders. I thought I shared something with you guys but you won’t stop at anything to attack anyone who says anything mildly bad about Sammy at this point.
People are convicted of crimes with only circumstantial evidence. Deal with it. That said, don’t go jumping to any conclusions about how I would act as a juror just because I used an analogy.
Since when is posting a reply an 'attack'?
by dr stabbingworth on Jun 17, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe attack is overstating it a bit
But when was my ability to serve on a jury ever a part of this discussion? It was an analogy that has basis in real life. Forensic evidence is not a requirement to assess guilt in a court of law in the United States. This isn’t something I made up, so I don’t see why you turned the conversation into being something unrelated to baseball about me.
when I see proof, I will believe.
Anonymous leaks are not proof.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions
To LT, No
No, I’m saying Raffy didn’t think he’d be caught. If Berkman knew that he had likely tested positive and was on the 2003 list, then he wouldn’t open his mouth about it.
I’m not saying that Berkman didn’t use PED’s. I’m saying that I doubt he is on the list that has leaked Sosa and A-Rod’s name.
I think it will be interesting to see what some guys like Berkman say now
Since it seems this list is bound to leak slowly. If somebody knows they are on the list they might be quiet about steroid use when in the past they talked against it.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
That's the thing
These guys haven’t been told that they are on the list if I have followed this whole thing correctly. They do know whether or not they did use them. but they don’t 100% know that they failed the test.
by LT on Jun 17, 2009 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions
A few general thoughts...
1. Maybe I have this perspective because I was once a journalism major, but why haven’t more people blamed the media? Yes, Sammy (apparently) cheated. Yes, so did McGwire and Bonds and lots of other ballplayers by taking illegal drugs to enhance their game. Should they be blamed for their actions? Yep. But this entire time they were smacking the ball very far, to my knowledge, no beat writer or columnist did any sort of investigatory journalism at all. They were (to my knowledge, let me know if if wrong) either naive to a fault, lazy or terrified of losing access to rock the apple cart and look for the truth.
2. I dislike the “MLB didn’t outlaw steroids at the time, so everything’s A-OK” line of thought. Steroids have been outlawed by an act of Congress since the 1980s. There’s no need for baseball to pass a rule forbidding something that’s illegal under U.S law. That would be like saying it’s ok for Derrek Lee to murder Aaron Miles on the field, because baseball hasn’t outlawed murder. Baseball didn’t need to outlaw steroids, Congress did it for them.
3. All the tainted sluggers should get in the Hall of Fame. I see the Hall of Fame as a museum teaching people about baseball. It shouldn’t whitewash anything. If I ever have children and I take them to the Hall in the future, I want to stop at Barry Bonds/Rodger Clemens/Sammy Sosa/Mark McGwire/whomever’s spot and tell my son/daughter about the Steriod Era. Like it or not, baseball was played from 1990-2005, by some magnificent players, and those players should go into the Hall as a lesson and memorial to the era they cheated in.
Like it our not, it’s our history.
Thanks for reading.
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...
by Curtain Jerker on Jun 16, 2009 11:37 PM CDT reply actions
Your analogy of comparing steroids to murder is a bit far-fetched. Of course baseball had to
document what the penalty is for taking steroids, all sports have to. Just because steroids are illegal, doesn’t mean that the authorities are going to vigorously pursue those that use them. Unless a person is distributing steroids, I doubt that precious law enforcement resources are going to be spent on this. It’s up to baseball to police itself and make sure that the penalties for using steroids are spelled out and agreed upon by all parties.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jun 17, 2009 12:07 AM CDT up reply actions
That's not his argument, I don't think
MLB needed to make penalties for the use. However, just because it had not done so meant that it was ok for players to engage in an illegal act in order to improve their performance. The “it wasn’t cheating” argument back then does not hold water for me.
Perhaps a better analogy, from the opposite angle. Suppose a club engaged in tax evasion, so that they ended up paying only 50 cents on the dollar for its player’s salaries, giving the team an advantage over every other team. As far as I know, there is no MLB rule declaring such action “cheating,” but I think the fact that it the team is engaged in an illegal act in order to gain an advantage on the field is enough to label it cheating.
That's not exactly what I meant. A steroid policy needs to be in place for two reasons. First, to
make sure that everyone is competing on the same level. Secondly, to assure the public that the game is above board. Neither of these really has anthing to do with whether or no steroids are legal. It’s really more of a public relation thing. Baseball wants to convey that cheating will not be tolerated. It’s important that the public believe that this MLB not WWE.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jun 17, 2009 8:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Illegal act
It’s not clear that all those accused of using steroids committed an illegal act. In many cases, it appears they used PEDs while out of the country. Many people choose to have medical treatments outside of the US or purchase medications that are illegal in the US. It’s not illegal unless you bring those drugs into the US and even then there is some allowance for personal use.
So I guess I’m in the camp it wasn’t cheating until MLB rules were in force.
I agree with points 1 & 3.
I agree with that exception
if it was actually true (I find it hard to believe that a player would take steroids only during the offseason while out of the country). I guess in my example that would be like a team setting up a tax haven offshore—not exactly illegal, but gray enough that there’s a whiff of cheating to it.
Thanks...The tax evasion analogy works better
Maybe I wanted to get Miles’s salary off the books
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...
by Curtain Jerker on Jun 17, 2009 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions
then wouldn't that clear the way
for Pete Rose?
Pete Rose
should be in the hall of Fame.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions
+1
Moral outrage/moral crime in this country is out of control.
by dr stabbingworth on Jun 17, 2009 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Rose has been kept out for the last 15 years
He is hardly a victim of moral outrage.
He broke the one rule you can’t break. I’d sooner see the Hall burned to the ground than for Rose’s plaque to be in it.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Pete Rose broke more rules than you think...
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Rose was also known to own a gym in the 70s that many steroid using body builders frequented, just sayin'.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jun 17, 2009 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions
The "Big Red Machine"
Some teams liked roids… other teams, like the 70’s Pirates loved coke. And, we know Doc Gooden and Daryl Strawberry were coked up too… and I once heard a story about Tim Raines always sliding a certain way to protect the vile of coke he kept in his pocket from breaking.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
I don't care about that
Gambling on the game is the one rule the union hasn’t been able to touch.
Gambling on the game is the one rule that both Babe Ruth and Mark McGwire, Lou Brock and Rickey Henderson, Warren Spahn and Greg Maddux, all had to follow.
Rose never gets in. Never.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 17, 2009 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
he is absolutely
the victim of moral outrage, and Bud Selig’s incompetent passive aggressiveness.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions
For someone that proclaims to love this game
You sure are forgiving of the ones trying to hurt it.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 17, 2009 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Pete Rose
was an amazing ball player. The Hall of Fame is supposed to be about famous players. You can hardly suggest that Pete Rose is not a famous player. Don’t white-wash what he did. Put it all on the plaque. But he deserves to be in the HoF.
And for someone who says that they’d give every Cub PEDs to win a world series, your moral outrage is awfully exposed.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions
You think Rose gives a damn what's on his plaque?
He wants the honor. And that’s precisely why it should be held from him.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I don't care what Rose wants
It’s about what he deserves.
Your hypocrisy is showing.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions
He doesn't deserve to be in
You gamble on the game, you’re out. Period. End of story. Enjoy your summer. Die.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
that's an opinion.
But it’s not held by all.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions
Yep
Put him in and make sure the whole story is told
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...
by Curtain Jerker on Jun 17, 2009 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions
MIles the Murderer?
Curtain Jerker wrote:
2. I dislike the "MLB didn’t outlaw steroids at the time, so everything’s A-OK" line of thought. Steroids have been outlawed by an act of Congress since the 1980s. There’s no need for baseball to pass a rule forbidding something that’s illegal under U.S law. That would be like saying it’s ok for Derrek Lee to murder Aaron Miles on the field, because baseball hasn’t outlawed murder. Baseball didn’t need to outlaw steroids, Congress did it for them.
My Comment:
Lots of things are “illegal” but not against the rules and not punished by baseball. A Steroid user not punished by baseball doesn’t avoid punishment. He is subject to the same punishment as any other Steroid user in society. If Baseball believes that it is “cheating” than they need to make a rule against it. And they did. But until they made a rule against it, it was simply an illegal act deemed not to be relevant by baseball to the play of baseball. Frankly, if it has no impact on the game, it should not be regulated by baseball. If Arron Miles were to murder Derek Lee off the field, he should not be punished by baseball. Society will take care of the punishment.
Baseball is also free, as are all sports, to make even legal products illegal. For example, even with a prescription certain substances cannot be taken by Olympic Athletes. Completely legal conduct that is banned.
by frustratedfan on Jun 17, 2009 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Ah yes
I didn’t see this before saying the exact same thing a little later. It’s good to know I’m not alone.
Just say no to amnesty
Sosa looked America in the eye and swore he was clean. That’s the same Sammy that swore he used his BP bat. I can understand the need to be competitive but if you do the crime then there has to be some punishment attached when you’re caught.
My suggestion would be to ask the players eligible for the HOF to allow the list to be checked to see if they’re on the list. They can choose to have it checked or not. It’s completely their choice. The HOF voters can then decide to either vote them in or not. Just as in court they can chose to testify or not. Let the jury decide their fate. It would allow the clean players to enter the HOF without all the questions hanging over them.
A question. Suppose Santo had used steroids. Can anyone suggest his numbers wouldn’t have risen and he’d have already been chosen for the Hall. Is it fair to give players like Sosa an unfair advantage over Ron?
Finally, please no asterisks. How can we ignore the raising and lowering of the pitcher’s mound if we add asterisks. How about the players who were in WWII. Just how many asterisks will we need?
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
Aaron & Maris
For me, the major home run records still belong to Aaron and Maris. Until someone breaks them without apparently cheating, they should remain so. My biggest concern with letting the numbers remain as they are is that future generations may not be as aware of the problems of our era as we are. They may truly think that Barry Bonds was the greatest home run hitter of all time just because they see his name at the top of the list (if it’s still there). I think all records achieved by known steroid users should either be removed or asterisk’d.
Maris?
He hit his 61 HR in an expansion year, off crappy pitching staffs and with an expanded schedule. Why isn’t the record still Ruth’s?
I’m being facetious, of course. The numbers are what they are. Like it or not, Barry Bonds hit 73 home runs in a season. He holds the single-season record. He hit 762 HR in his career. He holds the career record. You cannot erase the numbers. Are you going to take all the runs he scored and drove in for the Giants away?
That does NOT make him “the greatest home run hitter of all time”. That’s a subjective judgment. We don’t need “asterisks”. We already know.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
won't forget
I think Al’s post shows that future generations won’t forget the facts affecting the player’s performance. As further example, just about everyone know that pre-Jackie Robinson feats have to be recognized as achieved while a lot of good black players were not in the league. In fact, I think future generations will be more likely to paint with a broad brush and minimize every achievement during the steroid era, just as we do now with records before the modern era.
And Ruth used a "trick" bat
Which caused MLB to refine bat specifications, and made his bat illegal.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Records
I agree, Al. The records are what actually happened, we can’t change that. Likely every World Series Champion team’s season involved a stolen sign, doctored ball, greenies, PEDs, trick bat, etc. Are we going to take back championships? Award them to the team we deemed the cleanest?
No asterisks, no rewriting history. What happened, happened.
Great post, Al
Al — it needs to be said, but great post. Reading it got me thinking on a couple levels:
1) Let me preface everything else I say by stating my personal slant on steroids. First, they’re cheating/illegal, as opposed to “cheating” by scuffing balls (which I feel is something more like cheating within the game, like stealing signs or framing pitches, where you deserve some respect for getting away with it, but if you were caught doing it you’d be thrown out/face retribution within the game). Second, steroids were against the law even if baseball hadn’t implemented a rule about them, and they made you a better player — stronger, able to recover more quickly from injury/workouts, what have you, the players clearly saw results and took them. Three, not everyone was juicing, so there is a tragedy being done to clean players who would have had better/longer careers due to facing juicers.
2) Sosa is innocent until proven guilty, or until he admits to something. And forgive me for playing lawyer here, but a leaked, supposedly confidential drug test from 2003 doesn’t have a full “beyond reasonable doubt” stamp of approval yet from me.
3) This is going to sound crazy, but I think we should not discount/throw out 1998 necessarily due to a 2003 positive test. Al, you said it yourself — unlike Bonds/McGwire, Sosa’s career numbers climbed, plateaued, and declined, and he never had the conspicous bulk up of the others. So, here’s a crazy theory: what if he WAS NOT on the juice in 1998, but at some point AFTER that STARTED using PEDs because he was in decline from 1998? It staves off or slows his decline, and he tests positive then, even though he WAS NOT using in the magical 1998 season?
4) Yes, that is an insane theory. But given the “evidence” and the quality of the evidence we have right now, the insane theory is still a legitimate one.
HOF Vote
I dont know if I would vote for any of the cheaters, but I think if you vote for one you have to vote for all. Drugs and PED’s of one form or another have been part of ALL major sports for many many years. Anyone who thinks NFL players dont use PED’s you are nuts. Bottomline is bad and wrong, but since we dont know how many players actually used during the era I think we have to judge based on performance alone.
Let Them All In
Here’s what I say: let ‘em all in. Sosa, Rose, Bonds, McGwire. Baseball’s always been full of jerks and the hall isn’t a popularity prize, it’s a museum. The sport had a gambling period. It had a drug period and a steroid period. These should be part of the museum. You can’t cover up history.
Good point
I guess the argument would be that the Hall is some magical place to celebrate great accomplishments, as opposed to a historical recollection.
by dr stabbingworth on Jun 17, 2009 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions
The world is full of jerks. Why should baseball be any different?
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jun 17, 2009 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions
Agree 100%
See my big post above
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...
by Curtain Jerker on Jun 17, 2009 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Should Congress Prosecute Sosa for Perjury?
It is clear that Sosa testified through his lawyer (he forgot how to speak English) that he had never taken steroids. He appears to have committed this perjury before a Congressional committee in 2005. In effect he could go to jail for this. Granted Palmeiro also made similar statements, but he was caught using steroids AFTER he testified. A technicality but a good enough reason not to go after him. I believe Congress needs to go after Sosa. We all need to see him taken away in handcuffs and an orange jump suit. To me the level of dishonesty in this man is the issue, not whether he belongs in the HOF.
We don't actually know Sosa perjured himself.
The unconfirmed rumor is that Sosa had a banned substance in his body. We don’t know that this leak is even true. Furthermore, Sosa’s statement was that he took no “illegal” substance. It’s very possible Sammy took a substance that was prescribed by a Doctor and legal in the country he consumed it but it still showed up as a banned substance. A banned substance is not necessarily an “illegal” substance. It may seem like a technicality but perjury is very hard to pin on a person.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jun 17, 2009 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions
Congress needs to fix health care, the economy, and the deterioration of our civil rights
We don’t need any more sham trials. I doubt they would find some random reporter leaking names from a list a credible witness.
by dr stabbingworth on Jun 17, 2009 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions
And when they're done with all that
God help us all.
"I'll never forget how I felt last October." ~Kosuke Fukudome
You really don't want to go there. No one will ever be prosecuted for perjury based on this list. Do you realize
how this test originated and what it was for? Originally, no names were even to be used on the list. The players were only to be assigned numbers. He was never “caught” using steroids. Don’t you feel that handcuffs and an orange jump suit are a bit over the top? How would you feel if your employer came to you and asked you to fill out a survey and promised not to use names and then came back and fired you for the answers you put on the survey. Is that fair? How would you feel if the survey asked if you ever stole anything and then you were prosecuted for your answer. You talk about the level of dishonesty, but there is a fair bit of hypocrisy on both sides.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jun 17, 2009 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions
you can't prove
perjury from an anonymous leak that cannot be verified.
You have no proof. Suggesting that he be imprisoned is ridiculous.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions
From the articles I've read and interviews with the NYT reporter, this
is much more than a simple anonymous leak. It’s not like an unsigned letter was sent to the reporter saying I don’t want to be identified, I have seen the list, and Sammy in on the list.
This is a person/people agreeing to be interviewed by the reporter, editorial fact check, and the NYT is backing the story as being accurate journalism. The names of the leakers are being withheld by the reporter as sources.
I understand your feelings, but this is different than you keep suggesting.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
The point is that this leak would never stand up to the scrutiny of a court. You are never going to prosecute anyone
based on this list.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jun 17, 2009 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions
Unless the leak comes forward and testifies.
But to do that, then they’re facing jail time and losing of their legal license.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Bill Potter on Jun 17, 2009 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions
With the list and samples being held by a court, does the leaker
need to come public?
See my post in the main page thread, I believe Sammy’s words to congress were so carefully chosen, perjury may not be an issue.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
He did attempt to protect himself in his statement, you're right about that.
All these appeals between the MLBPA and Governemnt will eventually go to the Supreme Court, so depending on their ruling, the list could come out, or be destroyed.
If the list was destroyed and the government wanted to pursue a perjury case, then they’d probably need the leak.
In either case, the government should be persuing the leak as they violated a sealed court order in leaking the information.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Bill Potter on Jun 17, 2009 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions
it cannot be proven
prove it. Show me a drug test that is certified as having illegal substances, and certified as being Sosa.
Because on one hand, you have testimony given to Congress under oath, and on the other you have someone anonymously leaking results from what is supposed to be an anonymous report that cannot be validated at all.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm just pointing out the individual(s) are only having their identities kept
anonymous from the public, not from the reporter breaking the story who claims to have researched it and had his editorial board approve prior to publishing.
Further, the report and samples are held by the court. While supposed to remain private, that’s different that saying it cannot be validated at all.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
This is more of a Deep Throat/Watergate
kind of thing versus an anonymous call to a “did sosa PED” hotline.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
the report and samples
are anonymous. They are not supposed to be able to linked to specific players. As far as I know, the report is held by the Players Union.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't think so.
I believe they were taken from MLBPA, who was supposed to destroy them, and are now held by a federal court as part of Balco.
I heard said yesterday somewhere (I watched a lot of baseball news after the rainout), originally only one person from MLB and one from MLBPA were to know the results and link the sample numbers to individuals and that changes when the Feds took it all, report and samples, post Balco and now that its part of the federal trial, it can’t be destroyed.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
The agreement between MLB and MLBPA was to keep identies and results
private. However, that doesn’t mean they were private from the court.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
You realize, Drew ...
That YOU will probably never see any drug test — unless you’re a prosecutor or a reporter? You will almost certainly be at the mercy of getting evidence against any player through the media.
I do realize that.
However, I believe that there are ways of confirming such evidence. Anonymous leaks are not it.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Well ...
Before yesterday, I had held out the slimmest of hopes that Sammy was being unfairly lumped in with Bonds, McGwire, et. al. That hope is now gone, and I’d be willing to bet a lot of money on the fact that Sosa used PEDs.
I also predict, with almost absolute certainty, that Sammy will never get into the Hall. I’m not saying his records should be expunged, but I doubt any voter will seek to honor him (or any PED user, for that matter).
BTW, if somehow, Sosa can show his innocence, you will have bragging rights for years on this sight, Drew. But I don’t see that happening either.
Because someone who won’t stand up and identify themselves says so?
That’s not proof.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Drew,
I must be missing something. You keep referring to an Anonymous Leak.
The individual/individuals interviewed by the NYT are not anonymous. Their identities are not being revealed to the public, therefore they are a protected source not being identified. By being known to the NYT, the paper is able to research the persons background and check if they were in a position to have the knowledge.
I guess I am struggling with the repeated term “Anonymous Leak.” Just because we are not provided the name does not mean the source is anonymous or the article is baseless.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Jun 17, 2009 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
it is not proof.
it’s an anonymous leak —who, by the way, is either violating a court order or lying.
It’s not like the NYT is perfect. They’ve made mistakes. When I see a validated report that can be linked to a positive result and to Sosa, then I’ll believe.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
All papers have made mistakes.
I’m just saying the report is not anonymous. The person reporting is aware of the identity and is choosing to keep it confidential. There is a distinction between a real person where someone, in this case the reporter, can go back and ask additional questions and someone truly anonymous.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
All the visual proof you'd ever need that Sammy was juiced was provided by the Cubs.
In their own media guide from earlier this decade, they had a composite photo of Ernie Banks and Sammy Sosa on the cover.
The photo showed them standing on the field at Wrigley with bat in hand.
This side by side comparison of the two 500+ home run hitters (taken from photos in their prime) showed a lean Ernie and a bloated Sammy.
It’s a striking and shocking cover and I was really surprised that the Cubs did it.
Go Green! Go White! GO STATE!
King Leonidas: Spartans! What is your profession?
Spartans: HA-OOH! HA-OOH! HA-OOH!
The "visual proof " argument is pretty thin. Some guys gain muscle mass very quickly whether
they are doing it legally or illegally. Palmiero certainly was no physical specimen. Many of the guys that have tested positive for steroids have not been the prototypical muscle head. Conversely, Frank Thomas is a big man. He has always been big, but if you hadn’t seen him throughout his career, wouldn’t you suspect that he used something to get that big?
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jun 17, 2009 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions
Agreed - if that were the ONLY proof.
Now, it simply reinforces it.
Go Green! Go White! GO STATE!
King Leonidas: Spartans! What is your profession?
Spartans: HA-OOH! HA-OOH! HA-OOH!
there is no proof.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions
what you suggest is proof
is nothing of the sort. Ernie Banks didn’t have the weight-lifting program Sosa did.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions
Thanks Al,
As for perjury, if the link below is accurate, Sammy’s quote was read by his lawyer and carefully worded.
Sammy had someone else say he did not break a law, nor was he injected with anything. Legal, oral steroids in the Dominican are still wide open. Further, I’m no legal scholar, but would be curious what effect having someone else read a prepared statement has on perjury.
“I have never taken illegal performance-enhancing drugs. I have never injected myself or had anyone inject me with anything. I have not broken the laws of the United States or the laws of the Dominican Republic. I have been tested as recently as 2004 and I am clean.” — Sammy Sosa of the Baltimore Orioles. His lawyer read his prepared testimony.
I see a thread started above while I was typing and researching the above. Sorry this is not a reply.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Jun 17, 2009 9:52 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
The lawyer read it in Sammy's name
It was entered as Sosa’s testimony — at least I think it was. Therefore, those are Sosa’s words.
And before anyone asks, interpreters take an oath as well. They take an oath to accurately translate the questions and answers. The only way the interpreter would be liable is if Sosa started arguing that the interpreter didn’t provide him accurate questions or accurately represent Sosa’s answers.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
That was my assumption, but
it does seem to add more leeway and difficulty in proving any perjury.
Regardless, I’m assuming the prepared statement was crafted carefully to make certain there were no lies.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
I am not sure regarding amnesty?
Do you mean how MLB should treat records or are you referring to punishment from MLB?
I think for players who tested positive when MLB did not necessarily regulate steroid use then it’s not an issue for me. MLB should decide what they want to do with those records and I am fine if they leave them as is. I don’t think there is much to benefit from bringing up the pat in years when it was not strictly regulated. That being said, I’d also have no problem with qualifications for that entire era. The incentive to use steroids was very strong and presumption of general and pervasive use makes sense to me, it’s a reasonable conclusion especially in light of the code of silence.
For positive tests when it’s regulated, then MLB has to abide by their collective bargaining agreement, no real issues there other then public perception.
As for Sosa, he’s about as credible as his “no habla”. In a world of roided up freaks he was one of the best. The Cubs and he made an awful lot of money during his glory days. I was not and am not a fan of Sosa for a variety of reasons, but I’d rather leave that out. He produced for the Cubs and as pointed out in the post he declined swiftly.
A carefully crafted statement indeed
It certainly is possible that Sosa did not INJECT himself. There are other ways to put steroids into your body. I do believe his attorney was playing word games with the statement. He may have already knew Sosa’s name appeared on the 2003 list , or at least suspected it might be. Again, this is a technicality, I believe. It is clear he took steroids and broke the laws of the United States. I don’t think the NYT got it wrong. Sosa deliberately attempted to mislead Congress with his statement.
well put
you’ve got the right idea here. Sosa and his attorney were fully aware what was going on when he appeared before Congress. he knew he had screwed up, it was just a matter of them actually catching him.
Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.
A few fun facts about illegal bat history
1. Babe Ruth used a bat often referred to as the “Crawford Bat,” designed by HOFer Sam Crawford. It was a composite bat made up of 4 pieces of wood glued together. There’s no real documentation on how long he… or Crawford for that matter, used this bat. However in 1923, AL President Ban Johnson ruled that Ruth’s bat illegal. Now, how who’s to say how many HRs Ruth hit with that bat, or any other “tricked” bat of his, before such things were rules illegal? Kind of similar to steroids not being deemed “illegal” in baseball, although they were made illegal by US law.
2. Later in the 1923 season, an umpire stopped a game between the Tigers and Indians, ruling that Ty Cobb is using an illegal bat. Cobb chose 3 other bats, all of them ruled illegal‚ then asked the ump if he may go back to his locker and find another one. So, how many of Cobb’s bats would’ve been illegal prior to 1923? He played from 1905 to 1928.
3. Baseball historian Bill James tells a story of a Babe Ruth bat that was corked:
In 1983, a traveling Hillerich and Bradsby exhibit featured a Babe Ruth bat. According to Dan Gutman in It Ain’t Cheatin’ If You Don’t Get Caught, the Seattle players were admiring the bat "when outfielder Dave Henderson noticed that the round end of the bat didn’t exactly match the wood of the barrel. The end was cracked, but the rest of the bat was not.
“’That’s a plug!’ said Henderson. ‘That bat is corked.’”
(The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract, page 784)
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jun 17, 2009 10:33 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
the AL president's name
was Ban? lol
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions
It's over for Sammy
The fact that he has yet to issue a public statement or apology of any sort is further damning. Sosa will go down as the worst of all the steroid cheaters. Then layer on top of that lying before Congress, being caught with a corked bat and quitting on his teammates.
Let him wither in the Dominican. I just hope the Department of Homeland Security has the foresight to permanently revoke his travel visa into the United States.
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little messed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
It takes time for attorney's to draft a precise response where Sammy can sound like he's refuting
the article without denying anything.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Proof?
oh. Right.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 17, 2009 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Sammy Steroid
So can we get him off of the list of greatest Cubs of all time on the sidebar? At least knock him down about 80 places? It was always ridiculous to have him at number 3, and now it’s absurd. They guy was a fraud.
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