Revised [Grow up, Carlos. (Zambrano misses flight)]
Ok, I'm not going to delete this, because people have made good points on both sides of the argument. For as good of a job as I thought I did not getting P.O.'d during the game, I was irritated this morning.
So continue to discuss. I'll back down from the conclusions -- for now. But I'm still weary of things like this always seeming to involve Zambrano.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Apparently rumors of Zambrano's maturation have been greatly exaggerated. Carlos missed the team flight yesterday and showed up later in Atlanta. It might be the way that they lost yesterday's game, but I'm more weary than usual of the selfishness that he sometimes exhibits. The apologists that have defended or rationalized all the things that he's done like this have their work cut out for them this time -- as has been reported since late last year, the other players are indeed tired of these antics.
I defended Zambrano bunting earlier this season as someone who was trying to do whatever it takes to win, and I stand by that -- but I also stand by the earlier comments that I've made about his immaturity and selfishness.
As Sandberg said, the name on the front of the jersey is more important than the name on the back of the jersey. Pitching a no-hitter doesn't change that fact.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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367 comments
Comments
The Cubs should tack on two gams to his suspension
He needs to know that the Chicago Cubs were here before him and will be here after him
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 3, 2009 6:39 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Another Sosa?
Z just reminds me of Sammy Sosa. As long as he puts up numbers, and pays his fines, the Cubs will keep letting him do this junk without any major consequences. Still, eventually…. I think there will be a parting of the ways between Z and the Cubs.
by TheHawkRules on Jun 3, 2009 6:48 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I've said it before
When Z leaves, however that happens, you will feel the same about him as you do Sosa
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 3, 2009 6:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly...
…I am expecting that, but, you never know. I guess I’ll worry about it when it happens. Though he’s aggravating, I can’t really see anyway to trade him right now. So, for the time being, we are stuck with him. (Maybe he’ll grow up. lol. Probably not…)
by TheHawkRules on Jun 3, 2009 6:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I bet the Yankees would take him in a second
Let’s see how his shenanigans play out in New York.
by dr stabbingworth on Jun 3, 2009 7:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd take Cano and some decent pitcher...
… if they have any young decent pitchers.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Jun 3, 2009 8:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure they would...
…but what would we get in return to help us win now? We are still very much in this, and even though Z gets on my nerves, we can’t just let him go without getting somebody to take his place. So really… Even though I am cringing a bit, I believe Z will be a Cub until either his career numbers start going way down, or, he demands for a trade. The pitching staff is built around him being our number 1… if we are in a race, which we are, you can’t just get rid of that for something that might help us down the line.
Besides, if we were to trade Z before his career starts going down hill, we could get some real talent in return. Is our team ready to develop some good players?
by TheHawkRules on Jun 3, 2009 8:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love Sosa
So for me that is probably an accurate statement
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Jun 3, 2009 8:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
despite the way sosa left the team
I still love him for all the great seasons he had while in chicago. it really was a pleasure to watch him from 1998-2001
by burncruisin on Jun 3, 2009 10:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's a hammer-head
I don’t think there’s a lot going on upstairs for Carlos. He’s not a rookie any more. Grow up is right.
With Zambrano’s BS, Bradley getting hurt again, and collapsing last night to cost Wells yet another win, I don’t like the way this team is trending.
I hope they can shake off last night’s game, but I don’t have a lot of faith. They’ve never hit Lowe particularly well, and Jurrjens has been lights out for the Braves. Last night was they’re best matchup, and they blew it.
I have nothing funny or creative to write.
by Canadian Cubs Fan on Jun 3, 2009 6:49 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
With all of their problems, the Cubs are still only 4 games out. I know everyone is preaching about how it’s still too early to make any trades, but, I wish the Cubs would/could go out and get somebody like Reed Johnson who knows how to play the game right. I think we need a little more fighting spirit to get us through this tough time. Even if its only a bench player… we need need a little more edge… (good edge, not fighting ump edge. lol)
by TheHawkRules on Jun 3, 2009 7:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Z" will never change.
Just like Bradley will always be hurt, it is in the makeup of these players. I would not have any problems trading “Z”. Where this club is right now, I can’t imagine them being within 10 games by the All-Star break.
This team is just not set up right. Kevin Gregg will have more nights like last night in his belt.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Jun 3, 2009 7:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remember 2007?
Lou had Hendry ship out all the bad apples and things changed dramatically. Personally, I think it’s time for Z to go.
by dr stabbingworth on Jun 3, 2009 7:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"..time for Z to go"
What? Are you serious?
by cubsnlinux on Jun 3, 2009 8:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
He is paid $18 million a year to put up mediocre numbers. He is an ace in name and reputation only.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=305&position=P#value
by dr stabbingworth on Jun 3, 2009 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree.
I stated some facts here that suggest if he’s not an ace, he’s pretty damn close.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 3, 2009 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea and Soriano is over paid....
for what he does, so is Lee. So is Milton Bradley. The list goes on.
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
by HIGGY on Jun 3, 2009 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which bad apples where those ?
Things changed when Z attacked Barrett and Barrett was dumped. Barrett may have been a bad catcher but he was certainly not
a bad apple.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 3, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
they got into a fight with each-other
It’s not like Z was a lion and Barrett a deer.
I’m rooting for my team in spite of the problems. I recognize the team is struggling. I root for them anyway.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I remember correctly Z punched
Barrett first in the dugout and the proceeded to pound the crap out of him in the club house. Sorry Drew but I feel it was all on Z. He let his emotions get the best of him.
by sue369 on Jun 3, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
they argued with each-other.
Z was mad. So was Barrett. Just because Z ended up “winning” the fight doesn’t change the fact that they got into a fight together.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the conference series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Z started it in
the dugout. He approached Barrett first and he threw the first punch. That’s called not having control of your emotions. I guess this is one thing we won’t agree on Drew.
by sue369 on Jun 3, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I blame Judd Sirrot
somehow it is his fault
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Jun 3, 2009 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I blame El Nino
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It also started
with Zambrano showing up his teammates for errors, which also happened a few plays before his meltdown with the ump last week.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 3, 2009 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's been doing that for a long while . . . .
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh really. "Showing up teammates for errors"? I don't recall that happening
last week.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jun 3, 2009 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
they argued.
I don’t debate that Z lost his temper. But you can’t fight alone. Or, at least, you look funny when you do.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can mug someone without the victim being complicit
That said, Barrett was an idiot for going to the clubhouse after round 1.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Barrett
didn’t get mugged. He got into a verbal altercation with Z. I’ve seen the video, so have you.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's not the point; yelling at someone doesn't give them license to hit you
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never said it did.
All I’m saying is that they got into that fight together.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I'm with Sue on this one -- it was Zambrano much more than Barret
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
one guy yelled and pointed out at the scoreboard
another threw a punch. It’s pretty obvious who started the physical altercation
by WanderingWanderer on Jun 3, 2009 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
do you know
what Barrett said? I don’t.
Once again. You guys are drawing conclusions from insufficient data.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose the fact tha Zambrano tearfully apologized later doesn't convince you
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he always apologizes!
And Barrett was traded. I’ve no doubt that Z was sorry for getting into the fight. I’m just saying it cannot be placed solely on him. Sheesh.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nor am I saying it's solely on him
But I think it’s mostly on him. We can agree to disagree, but FWIW, you seem to be of the minority opinion. That doesn’t make you wrong in itself.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not a Z apologist
and like many here, I think his antics have grown beyond tiresome but I have a feeling that there was more to their fight than Z just beating up on a “innocent” guy. Barrett was more than just a lousy catcher-the rumors running rampant after he was dumped was that he was the one sniping about Pinella to the press.
I’ve always looked at Barrett as the kind of guy who always said the right thing when the camera was on him but was kind of a weasel otherwise.
by bluekoolaide on Jun 3, 2009 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I think Barrett's an idiot
I thought that before the fight.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 7:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree...It was Z's fault
and even Z admitted that it was his fault after it was over.
by Cubs and Hawks fan on Jun 4, 2009 8:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Still waiting for the apologists to show up
And tell us how the umpire bumped Zambrano off his flight
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 3, 2009 7:11 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The ump...
…bumped Z’s tickets to first class, but that wasn’t what he wanted, so he refused to ride.
by TheHawkRules on Jun 3, 2009 7:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh for crying out loud.
Now you people are bagging on Zambrano because he missed his flight?! He’s immature because he missed his flight?! This is the type of absurd drivel that I would expect to read on the heavily teenager dominated Cubs.com board. Not here. This is patently absurd.
by kanderber on Jun 3, 2009 7:21 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No...
…he missed his flight because he is immature, not the other way around. I think we’ve been “bagging” on Z for while now….
by TheHawkRules on Jun 3, 2009 7:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have to agree....
it is becoming over the top. The longest standing member of the Cubs is now getting bashed for his attitude, and everything he does.
Z has become the whipping boy for a bad baseball team. Hendry deserves the whipping not Z.
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
by HIGGY on Jun 3, 2009 7:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All right! Our first apologists!
The team is going to fine him and make him apologize.
Teams do not like it when players miss flights.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 3, 2009 7:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sooooo.....
you are telling me that if the Cubs were in first or say 10-15 games above .500 this would still be a huge issue?
HIGHLY doubt it.
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
by HIGGY on Jun 3, 2009 7:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But they aren't
So it is an issue.
And one of the reasons they AREN’T 10-15 games above .500 is because Zambrano can’t stay on the field
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 3, 2009 7:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
So if Z went out there today, like he was supposed to, and pitched a no hitter into 7 and 2/3 innings then we would have won?
by GoCubbies34 on Jun 3, 2009 7:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Because he also would have hit a 2 or 3 run home run and the Cubs would have had a bigger lead……
by frustratedfan on Jun 4, 2009 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
HAHAHAHA...
really? No Ramirez? A pathetic signing this off season in Milton Bradley? A totally dismantled bullpen? A closer who has AAA stuff?
A guy who starts ever 5 games is not the reason a team is .500. And he cant stay on the field because he made a good hitting decision? Should we start bashing Rich Harden too?
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
by HIGGY on Jun 3, 2009 7:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I mean...
I get getting upset with him for his scene the other day. Personally, I’m fine with what he did. He thought it was a bad call, so he reacted. That should be allowed to happen. The tossing of the ump wasn’t necessary, but it was downright hilarious. If you can’t laugh at that, you need to lighten up a bit. No, you need to lighten up a lot.
But to bag on Zambrano because he missed his flight… that just blows my mind. What is Aramis Ramirez missed his flight? Would people dog him for that? Highly unlikely. If Marmol did it? No chance. You get the point.
by kanderber on Jun 3, 2009 7:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We've been down this road before with Zambrano
Last September, he left the game early without permission and was reprimanded. That’s in the story on the original link, by the way.
And he is out for six games right now. I personally think he would have struck out on three pitches, but I’m sure Lou would have liked to have had a pinch-hitter last night.
And by the way, IT WASN’T A BAD CALL! The ump got it right.
So Zambrano is immature, whiny and wrong.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 3, 2009 7:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And again...
Him missing a flight doesn’t make him immature. Have you ever missed a flight? I have. And it wasn’t cause I was immature. A number of things can cause a person to miss a flight. Vehicle problems, traffic, sick kid, etc. etc.
God, I can’t believe I’m actually having this conversation. Zambrano is immature for missing his flight? No, people like you are immature for taking something silly and meaningless and trying to slam a guy for it.
by kanderber on Jun 3, 2009 7:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Come on man
It’s not just this flight, it’s the aggregate behavior. In and of itself, you’re right, the missed flight does make him immature. Add up all his crap however, it is a very reasonable, almost inescapable conclusion.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Jun 3, 2009 7:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Everyone has seen Zambrano’s antics. It’s ridiculous. The guy has a golden arm and yet his ERA is constantly hovering about 4.
by dr stabbingworth on Jun 3, 2009 8:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Considering he'd been reprimanded just a few days before
for his actions, wouldn’t you think he’d set his alarm clock a little early?
No, he was busy with the Mango Margaritas at his birthday party
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 3, 2009 7:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't like the way Sullivan writes that Z blew off the flight
no reason is given why he missed it, so it seems to be premature to say that he blew it off.
by TC Cubby on Jun 3, 2009 7:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about the Sun Times and Daily Herald?
Did Sullivan write those stories, too?
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did Sullivan write Dave Eanet's sports reports for WGN this morning?
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is proof you hate him more than you love the Cubs. No basis just throw out a drunk accusation.
Jay is our Quarterback. I REPEAT JAY IS OUR QUARTERBACK. Did I mention we have a Quarterback who happens to be named Jay?.
by cubstoseriesby100 on Jun 5, 2009 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've had enough of you talking about "hate".
Knock it off. No one is “hating” here.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Jun 5, 2009 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He broke team rules
Luis Vizcaino gets released for that.
But because he’s “Z”, you want to give him a pass.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The release Z too...
Why not – follow that logic. Release him. It will help the team.
Forget the bad bullpen, forget Aram is out, forget Lee is not productive, and forget we wasted money on an injury prone RF.
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
by HIGGY on Jun 3, 2009 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lee is not productive?
I find your arguments hard to swallow if you’re unwilling to look at the stats..
by dr stabbingworth on Jun 3, 2009 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stats.....
Hmmm for a 3 hitter he has good stats?
Nice try.
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
by HIGGY on Jun 3, 2009 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And by the way - you want to talk stats...
and say i dont look at stats…
Derrek Lee does not rank in the top 15 for first basemen in ANY offensive category.
Houf has 5 less RBIs in 50 less abs. Come on dude. If you are going to call me out on something, make sure you do not lack in that department.
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
by HIGGY on Jun 3, 2009 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
viscaino also sucked it up pretty bad. Where as Z has been steady/decent. The Starters are one of the only things the cubs have going for them so far, with rami i and all the other team problems. I know Z has emotional/anger issues, but you guys seem to be taking out your anger on Z actions like its the only reason why the cubs are doing shitty. C’mon now.
by CubsFanInWisconsin on Jun 5, 2009 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a leap
Why is it that a Cub can’t be criticized without it being “hating” or villifiying? They aren’t gods, they aren’t beyond reproach.
C’mon now.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 6, 2009 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
be nice
if they got treated equally. No one said that Ted Lilly should be suspended extra games when he got thrown out of a game from the dugout.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 6, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Drew, you know those aren't the same
Not even close.
And I take exception to CubsFanInWisconsin, or anyone, telling me that I’m taking out anger just because I have a differing opinion. It’s simplistic, arrogant and borderline rude.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 6, 2009 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
they're not
the rules say you can’t call balls and strikes. Ted was doing it loudly enough to be heard from the dugout. When he got thrown out of the game, his teammates blocked the steps, and so Lilly jumped the dugout fence to go scream at the ump.
I don’t think you, in particular, are talking about of anger. I DO think that Zambrano, Soriano and Bradley get taken to task for things in ways that Lee, Riot, Lilly and other players do not.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 6, 2009 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you meant to disagree, but your subject line agrees
No, they aren’t the same. Breaking team rules without notifying management (regardless of the reason, it’s generally accepted that this did happen) is not the same as arguing a call.
And, given the theories that have been put forth in this thread, I think it’s fair to add that it’s been speculated Lilly’s situation was choreographed to fire the team up.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 6, 2009 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, yeah......
I would think it’s getting harder and harder to defend this guy. It seems like it is always something with him. Rather than list chapter and verse all the crap he’s been involved with since we all know about it, this missed flight is just the latest in a long line of screw-ups. Why is it always him? If it were just about anyone else on the team, it wouldn’t be that big of a deal. But it’s him. Again. Normally, someone with his history who DOES have his head on straight would go the extra mile to ensure basic things like catching the team plane weren’t an issue.
As a fan since the 1960’s, I can relate as much as anyone to the desire of winning it all. For a long time, I felt Zambrano was key to that goal. Increasingly I don’t anymore. I’m getting tired of seeing him being enabled. I have no idea about no trade clauses and such, but if the right deal came along, it would no longer break my heart to see him go. He’s as talented as all get out, but at 28, he’s shown no evidence he’s ever going to harness it. He’s not a stopper, and we’ve been told by a myriad of people he’s not an “ace”. That’s sadly true. He should be, but he’s not. I watched Roy Halladay gut out a complete 14 strike out performance yesterday against the Angels. THAT’S an ace. Zambrano’s goal seems to be becoming a huge pain in the ass, and if it isn’t, he sure has a funny way of provng people wrong about that.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Jun 3, 2009 7:43 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Didn't you hear?
We were told last week that Z isn’t really an ace. He’s a $90 million role-player, apparently.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 3, 2009 7:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, such a deal
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Jun 3, 2009 7:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
why in the world are even talking about Zambrano???
1. Zambrano didn’t put together this team
2. Without Zambrano we wouldn’t have sniffed playoffs in the last two years
3. Zambrano is the live spark in the club house and gives his all in every game he is in. He throws some tantrums so what? I agree that it is not ideal and sometimes unacceptable but he is NOT the reason for our below par performance this season.
So can we please stop blaming Z for all the tsunamis, earth quakes, tornadoes and a cubs loss?
by cubsnlinux on Jun 3, 2009 8:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree mostly. I find his tantrums embarassing for the cubs, but at least hes helped give this team a shot. Id rather deal with his tantrums than not have him at all
by CubsFanInWisconsin on Jun 5, 2009 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"As has been reported since late last year, the other players are indeed tired of these antics."
..
Linkage?
Not that I don’t believe you (norm blame a player for saying it), I just don’t recall someone actually going on record as saying they’re tired of Z’s antics.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Jun 3, 2009 7:26 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It's because it's not true.
No player, not one, has ever said anything remotely near that about Zambrano.
by kanderber on Jun 3, 2009 7:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What player would call him out?
Jeez the players looked blindly at all the years of drug abuse in the 80’s, all the roids in the late 90"s, so a player is going to call out “Z” for being a jackass? not going to happen. No player called out who ever it was who bashed Sosa’s boom box. Players only talk about a player when that player is no longer playing, ie Canseco.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Jun 3, 2009 8:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay?
I was merely disputing the original claim that the players are tired of Zambrano. Considering that there’s ZERO evidence to suggest that’s even remotely true, I think it’s pretty silly to say so.
by kanderber on Jun 3, 2009 8:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't feel the need to re-post links from Bruce Miles' blog
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That were posted last year
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't care what Bruce Miles says.
He’s not there all day everyday like the actual players are. Just because he may have heard one thing, one day, from one player, doesn’t mean that Z’s teammates are “tired of him.” Especially when all visual evidence strongly suggests otherwise.
by kanderber on Jun 3, 2009 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I missed this comment earlier
Actually, beat writers ARE there every day. (Until this year for the Daily Herald — no road trips.)
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And lengthy furloughs for Sun-Times writers
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
by chilango2 on Jun 3, 2009 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok, so if I get this right..
Players didn’t call out Z, we agree that Z is not responsible for our loosing streaks and every single cubs loss, yet Z is the mysterious curse?
by cubsnlinux on Jun 3, 2009 8:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, you've gone a bit far, don't you think?
Where did anyone suggest that? People are saying that he should grow up. Is that really such a bad thing?
Honestly, there are a handfull of people here that go beserk if anything at all critical of certain Cubs is said.
The Alien and Sedition act was repealed 200 years ago, by the way — it’s not a crime to criticize the Cubs.
How about responding to what is actually said, instead of going to ridiculous extremes?
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah..sometimes we all need to grow up.
by cubsnlinux on Jun 3, 2009 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes -- and sometimes people need to learn to be critical of arguments without
resorting to personal attacks.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly..I agree
So can we please concentrate on our on the field performance rather than passing judgements about their maturity levels
by cubsnlinux on Jun 3, 2009 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not going down that road any further
But I will add, for the third time, that part of my frustration was yesterday’s game.
If this thread gets much more heated, I’m just going to delete the post, because there was enough tension on this site yesterday.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand your frustration
but your whole post is based on what Sullivan wrote this morning.
From Sullivan’s article -
It was not known what his reason was for missing the departure.
He is acknowledging that the real reason is not known. If he doesn’t know the real reason then the least thing he could do is to wait until he gets an answer from Lou or Z before posting his absurd subjective analysis in a news paper.
by cubsnlinux on Jun 3, 2009 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is not journalism
This is jumping to conclusions. They must have already fired all of their editors over at the Trib, to print crap like that
Some people have 3 layers, like pie. Blog Blog Blog
by berselius on Jun 3, 2009 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
When you call yourself a “journalist” you have to hold yourself to some ethical standards.
by cubsnlinux on Jun 3, 2009 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since when?
"I'll never forget how I felt last October." ~Kosuke Fukudome
by Goodie1969 on Jun 3, 2009 11:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Both sides of the argument are becoming extreme
both sides (cubslinuxs stance and your stance) seem to be going extreme. There are people calling to trade him cuz of his antics. i dont think the cubs can go without Z. he’s too solid of a starter for the cubs to just give up. The cubs dont hae a whole lot of breathing room right now. on the other hand there are people who dont see a problem with his behavior. He needs to calm it down alot, but i wouldnt just trade him off cuz of his rages. Id rather have him on the mound for 5 innings and pitch well then get kicked if it gets the team going. but we all know that wont help either. Basically my point is people are starting to polarize in this thread and its getting absurd
by CubsFanInWisconsin on Jun 5, 2009 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Show me where I went to a ridiculous extreme
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 6, 2009 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Z....
Ironically keeps the lockerroom loose and relaxed.
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
by HIGGY on Jun 3, 2009 7:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it is ironic....
… and good I suppose, but there’s more to being a pro player than being the life of the party.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Jun 3, 2009 7:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Monday was Carlos' 28th birthday
He was just so enthralled with all the purty balloon animals and magic tricks and Dora the Explorer paper plates.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 3, 2009 7:32 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
He got Dora?
Lucky…
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Jun 3, 2009 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is really the least of the teams problems
But if you guys would rather complain about Z growing up than a crappy bullpen then I’m more happy to read what you all have to say.
by ak123 on Jun 3, 2009 7:45 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
And the 30 million dollar...
injury experiement in RF.
Z is the fall guy now for a bad team.
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
by HIGGY on Jun 3, 2009 7:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Z" is sure not helping himself
The team is mess, and “Z” compounds the issue by acting like a child. He will never grow up, and this is not the last time we will be talking about his lack of maturity.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Jun 3, 2009 8:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
how in the world did Z "compound" any issue?
He missed a darn flight..big deal..
by cubsnlinux on Jun 3, 2009 8:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did anyother Cub miss the flight?
“Z” wants to be the ace of this staff, at least he tries to act like it, he is paid like it, However he never acts like it and his pitching is not close to an ace.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Jun 3, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's not like he missed the flight
which made him miss a start.
I think people are frustrated in general, and this is an easy target. He missed a flight. He’ll get fined, I guess. What’s the big deal? Seriously.
I’m rooting for my team in spite of the problems. I recognize the team is struggling. I root for them anyway.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
+38
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Jun 3, 2009 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ooooh!
That’s good for points in the BCB Points Store, to be opened up after the All-Star break in 2009! Save for your BCB Snuggie!
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 3, 2009 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what makes you think I don't already
HAVE a BCB Snuggie?
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the conference series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want a BCB Sham Wow
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Jun 3, 2009 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't worry. Working on that.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 3, 2009 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think one of those
would be real handy. ;-)
by sue369 on Jun 3, 2009 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you'd rather complain about the bullpen, you're free to do so.
And if it’s the least of the team’s problems, why did all 3 papers and WGN-AM cover it?
Oh, that’s right — they didn’t check with the apologists first.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because if...
the media loves this stuff.
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
by HIGGY on Jun 3, 2009 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
strike the if.
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
by HIGGY on Jun 3, 2009 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
they covered it because they have to make a living..
sheesh
by cubsnlinux on Jun 3, 2009 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They could cover a lot of stuff
Someone made it sound like no one else covered it – that was incorrect.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think someone else also suggested to wait until we hear something from Z/Lou/etc
by cubsnlinux on Jun 3, 2009 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do that when we can assume that this is a character issue
We must stay outraged! Everyone knows it’s more important to like that players than it is to win! Bring back Mark Derosa! Grrrr!!!
by Wreckard on Jun 3, 2009 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
o god bring up DeRo beat that horse to death lol.
by CubsFanInWisconsin on Jun 5, 2009 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was incorrect...
But really – the media ALWAYS will report something like this.
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
by HIGGY on Jun 3, 2009 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree
But that doesn’t mean that it was wrong to refute the assertion that no one else noticed.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno.
I read the article. While it’s clear that Z screwed up, it is clear that the team is taking appropriate action, perhaps fining him and making him apologize to his teammates.
But to read this post, it’s as if he killed puppies. So far this has not affected the team on the field. As noted by ak123 above, I’d rather have a decent bullpen.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Jun 3, 2009 7:45 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
LIke I said above...
…. for me, it’s his aggregate behavior. Why is something like this almost always him? For all his episodes where he’s plainly a hot head and a jerk, when something relatively minor like this arises, an incident that probably was avoidable, it isn’t unreasonable for people to start voicing some displeasure with his head. It’s the old cry wolf syndrome. He’s quickly running out of chances to legitimately mess up. When he does, like this episode maybe, it makes it a little harder to forgive.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Jun 3, 2009 7:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about Milton Bradley?
Lets face it the media LOVES guys like this. And of course that is all you are going to hear about it.
I am reminded of the Phil Michelson/Tiger Woods thing. Ask the media what they think of each other, and then ask Tiger and Phil. 2 completely different sides.
"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"
by HIGGY on Jun 3, 2009 8:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You honestly don't believe that this is the latest in a series of actions like this?
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus, as I said, some my irriation was spawned by last night's game
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
*of
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
But as I said in my post…look at the 3 things written above you. I know this site so well lol.
by ak123 on Jun 3, 2009 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
For a group of people who discount everything Sullivan says
You all seem to be putting alot of credence in this article, the only person who says he blew off the scheduled plane connection was Sullivan. Everything he said was innuendo.
As was said above there are a ton of reasons a person can miss a plane and the reality is that we have no idea why he missed this one.
When Cubs management and Z come out and tell the reasons ,that is when I’ll either be angry at Z for being a bonehead or supporting Z because of unforeseen circumstances. Till then I’m withholding judgement as all of us should
If the world didn't suck we would all fall off.
by carolinacub on Jun 3, 2009 8:06 AM CDT reply actions 4 recs
I believe Paul Sullivan.....
from everything I have read and heard he is a stand up guy.
Big Z needs to grow up.
The last thing this team needs is another distraction.
by timeforachange2009 on Jun 3, 2009 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Paul Sullivan is a jerk and a terrible columnist
He has said on the air that he’s consciously biased against players who don’t care for the media (i.e. Bradley) how are we supposed to believe that he’s impartial?
Some people have 3 layers, like pie. Blog Blog Blog
by berselius on Jun 3, 2009 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
If I could "Super-Rec," I would
and I’d also put this on the front page for everyone to read and accept as unbiased truth.
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
by chilango2 on Jun 3, 2009 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Counterpoint.
First, Sullivan isn’t a columnist. He is a beat writer. I trust you understand the distinction.
I didn’t see any judgments being made regarding Z in that article. If you did, please enlighten us.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Jun 3, 2009 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was just speaking about Sullivan in general there, not specifically about that article
As far as the article goes, the problem with Sullivan is how he spins things. Reporting about Z missing the flight is fine and all, but saying that he blew it off and leading into it with a screed about Z’s immaturity certainly is going to frame whatever he says about it.
Some people have 3 layers, like pie. Blog Blog Blog
by berselius on Jun 3, 2009 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Sullivan quote
The people, you know, that are rude to us.. I don’t want to say Milton was rude but he certainly wasn’t very nice to me. You know they’re not always going to get the best coverage. So….You try and be an objective person but uh, you know, we are human, …so."
He said that, on television. During spring training he wrote and article on a Cubs spring training game
After homering in the second, Bradley beat out an infield hit in the fourth and waved his arms frantically to let first base umpire Tim McClelland know he was safe. McClelland agreed with Bradley’s call. After reaching on a walk in the fifth, he was forced at second on an Armis [sic] Ramirez grounder and went ballistic when second base umpire Jim Reynolds ruled him out. Reynolds didn’t seem to appreciate Bradley’s call, though replays suggested Bradley was correct.
Key words there – frantically, ballistic. Here’s a retelling of the same story, just framed differently
While hustling to 1st to beat out the infield grounder, Bradley displayed some of the intensity that the Cubs wanted from him as he and umpire Tim McClelland waved safe at the same time. Bradly then pumped his fist as if this was a regular season game and that he represented the winning run. This wasn’t Bradley’s only fiery moment. Aramis Ramirez grounded to the shortstop with Milton Bradley on first base after the walk and Bradley slid in as the shortstop relayed the throw to the 2nd baseman. The umpire called him out, though replays showed he was likely safe. Upon getting to his feet, Bradley was visibly angry with the umpire for making the incorrect call. He was as upset at the call as you’ll see from any player in the laid-back Cactus League. A few years ago Bradley may have confronted the umpire, but he slowly walked off the field though everybody knew how angry he was. These are great signs for the Cubs who spent $30 million on the talented, but injury prone outfielder.
Some people have 3 layers, like pie. Blog Blog Blog
by berselius on Jun 3, 2009 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions 7 recs
You're my favorite!
I want to be your friend. In a non-creepy way.
When you take over the editorial board at 425 N. Michigan Ave., please remember I will write for food.
Oh, and Rec’d.
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
by chilango2 on Jun 3, 2009 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks
I realize that the second story is framed in a pro-Bradley light, but still the important thing to remember is that framing the story is important.
Some people have 3 layers, like pie. Blog Blog Blog
by berselius on Jun 3, 2009 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
rec'd!
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and another thing
Since Sullivan is a beat writer, you’d think that he would have even less room to editorialize about his subjects.
Some people have 3 layers, like pie. Blog Blog Blog
by berselius on Jun 3, 2009 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm gonna withhold judgement until I hear from Zambrano.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 3, 2009 9:25 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
eh
I’m not going to condemn him for missing a plane when we don’t know the reasons why. I’m not going to praise him for missing a plane when we don’t know the reasons why.
Sometimes, I think fans forget that players are a package. You don’t get a pitcher like Zambrano, who shows flashes of brilliance as he guts his way out to a winning season, without a downside. Every player has their downside. Some just show it more.
Who is pissed that DLee always says the optimistic thing? Who is pissed that Milton Bradley won’t talk to the press, but then when he does talk to the press, he’s a whiner? Who is pissed that Theriot is always first in line for the interview? Who is pissed that Lou hasn’t blown up? Sori was in a slump, then hit the first pitch out yesterday; but he bobbled a ball in the field late in the game. We all love Marmol, but he can’t stop walking people.
He missed a plane. If he blew things off, then yes, he should get fined. But I really don’t think we’re in any position to judge the man based off of “the reasons for missing the flight are unknown.”
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 9:28 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The problem is that he is not an ace
He’s paid like an ace
He thinks he can act however he wants because he believes he’s an ace
He’s babied by the Cubs because they think he’s an ace
People defend him here because they think he’s an ace
Roy Halladay is an ace.
CC Sabathia is an ace.
Carlos Zambrano is not an ace. If he wasn’t making $18 million a year he’d be on an airplane to Baltimore.
by dr stabbingworth on Jun 3, 2009 9:44 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
nevertheless
he’s one of our starting pitchers. I don’t get all the angst.
"I don’t really play baseball, I feel it." -- Milton Bradley
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you are a mind reader?
Zambrano thinks he can act however he wants because he believes he is an ace? Thanks Carnac…
Carlos Zambrano is an ace, Carlos Zambrano is a horse. He has great stuff, he has a great record every year, throws a ton of innings, and is in the running for the Cy Young award. On top of that, he is a multiple winner of the silver slugger award. I, for one, am tired of people talking out of both sides of their mouth; one side saying that ERA is not an accurate measure of a pitcher, and the other side saying it is… You simply can’t have it both ways.
If you want a milquetoast pitcher, with no fire, who just gets it done, fine. Please though, stop with this incessant tripe that if he wasn’t getting paid what multiple teams were willing to pay him, that he would be shipped off to Baltimore. That is likely the most hyperbolic thing I have ever heard. It’s wrong, it’s silly, and it doesn’t make you sound as if you know what you are talking about. Rather, you sound like a person with an axe to grind, and a person to blame…
I'm a truth teller, I'm a risk taker, I'm like Johnny Cash - I walk the line...
by Jimmyeatworld on Jun 4, 2009 12:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Horse" and "ace" are two different things.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Jun 4, 2009 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe Z's a horse's ace?
I keed, I keed.
Kind of.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 4, 2009 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was saying that he is both, not one or the other... I understand that they are different things.
I'm a truth teller, I'm a risk taker, I'm like Johnny Cash - I walk the line...
by Jimmyeatworld on Jun 4, 2009 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Technically speaking
Z isn’t an employee of the Cubs right now anyway, since he’s being suspended.
Some people have 3 layers, like pie. Blog Blog Blog
by berselius on Jun 3, 2009 11:33 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Use your heads guys
If Zambrano had missed the flight because he was sick, or a family member was sick, or his car broke down, or any one of 1,000 legitimate excuses, Lou would have made sure Sullivan knew that.
Lou didn’t.
I would also guess — just an educated guess — that Sullivan knows a few things off-the-record and is shading the story a certain way to reflect that.
And the fact that some stories have made SURE to bring up that Zambrano’s birthday was Monday, that tells me the team sources are planting that in reporters’ heads.
Now, we can disagree on how severe the team — and we fans — should react, but I think it is completely naive and illogical to say, “Well, he could have had a good reason!”
If he did, we’d know it.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 3, 2009 11:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
no
that’s not necessarily true. How long did it take for us to find out that Dempster’s baby was sick? We didn’t originally know why Marmol was in NY, either. When did we find out about Demp’s blister, which he’s had ALL SEASON?
You cannot draw conclusions from evidence you think we should know, or evidence you think doesn’t exist because it hasn’t been exposed.
I’m rooting for my team in spite of the problems. I recognize the team is struggling. I root for them anyway.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm saying that if Lou knew of a good reason
AND he knew Sullivan was going to print a story, he wouldn’t have let his player twist like that.
Unless he’s sending a message to Zambrano, that is.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 3, 2009 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe
maybe not. We simply do not know.
I’m rooting for my team in spite of the problems. I recognize the team is struggling. I root for them anyway.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lou
can’t even make perfect decisions on the field, yet he’s supposed to know when a writer is writing something negative about one of his players. Big leap there.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
by KaliCub on Jun 3, 2009 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In my journalistic experience
If a reporter knows something “off the record,” you produce a first draft with that content and present it to the editor with names and quotes, but pointing out they were not meant to see the light of day. Then, the editor can contact the source and ask for confirmation and/or permission to use said quotes in the story. If permission is denied, the writer must re-write and only reflect what is of public domain.
Anything else is considered unethical and sources may pursue a libel lawsuit.
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
by chilango2 on Jun 3, 2009 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That may be how they work it for the Mayberry Times
But it’s not that way for big papers.
My guess is that Sullivan had at least two players express displeasure, but they refused to let him print a quote and he squeezed in the line about players being upset.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 3, 2009 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You'd be surprised
With lawsuits in mind, the Mayberry Times is actually less concerned with libel issues than the Trib or the NYT.
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
by chilango2 on Jun 3, 2009 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This still bothers me
If a reporter knows something "off the record," you produce a first draft with that content and present it to the editor with names and quotes, but pointing out they were not meant to see the light of day
there is no way in hell any self-respecting reporter would produce any kind of draft with someone’s names in it if they hadn’t wished to be identified. At newspapers, computer systems are linked, meaning other reporters, copy editors, interns, and receptionists can read stories.
There is NO WAY any reporter who promised confidentiality would put those names in a story.
When I worked at a newspaper, we were ordered NOT to put anything we didn’t want to see in print in the computer. We all knew the horror story of some paper in Missouri that started a sports story with the lede, “Quarterback John Smith, who in his spare time sucks green donkey dicks, threw 4 TDs…” or something.
Someone was being cute. Three people got fired and the editor and publisher were literally up at 3 a.m. trying to pull papers out of gas stations, grocery stores, etc…
I challenge you, sir or madam, on your “journalistic experience”
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 3, 2009 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you're misreading
I don’t think Chilango said that they put the sources in the story. I think Chilango meant that the writer gives the editor the story with the names of the sources so the editor can confirm.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Thank you. That is exactly what I wrote. Noone but the writer and his/her editor knows who the sources are. As a writer, it is your duty to foster relationships with sources and a good rapport with the editors so they trust you and aren’t forced to double-check your quotes.
Newspapers and magazines used to have fact-checkers and they were in charge of making the calls to confirm said quotes. Not anymore.
Thank you Drew.
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
by chilango2 on Jun 3, 2009 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the reporter TELLS
the editor the name of the source, he or she does not put it in a story and the editor DAMN sure doesn’t call the anonymous source.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 3, 2009 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
Chilango says the editor does call the source. But both of you agree that the names aren’t put in the paper. Or they wouldn’t be anonymous.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 7:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you need to
be so graphic? That was uncalled for.
by sue369 on Jun 3, 2009 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
If I had written “green donkey POOP!” you’d be rolling on the floor laughing.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 3, 2009 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No I wouldn't.
I don’t find you funny at all.
by sue369 on Jun 3, 2009 8:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's a guess.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, necessarily. I’m just saying that we cannot know if you’re right.
I’m rooting for my team in spite of the problems. I recognize the team is struggling. I root for them anyway.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've seen THE WIRE: Season 5
I know how journalism works!!
/sarcasm, sort of, because David Simon is a genius and probably 95% of what he did on THE WIRE (the greatest show of all-time), is accurate
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 3, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you HONESTLY believe that if a source tells you something off the record
AND then gets a call from an editor he or she doesn’t know, they will ever trust you again?
Let me know which town you’re a journalist in. I’m going to run for City Council and steal the city blind.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 3, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question
If any of us were to throw the kind of tantrums that have occurred this year (the Gatorade machine getting hacked by Dempster, Zambrano tossing the ball, throwing out the ump, whatever) in our own jobs, where would we be? Would we be called immature or unceremoniously tossed on the street?
I’m a lawyer. If a judge makes a ruling against me I vehemently disagree with, I have no choice but to say “yes, your honor” and leave the courtroom. If I took a bat to the jury box, or the courtroom water cooler, or got nose to nose with the judge, I’d be in jail. But let’s say I don’t get that violent, but merely mouth off a lot. Then I don’t show up on a timely basis. Is it fair to say I’m not professional, that I need to mature and grow up? Granted, athletic tantrums have happened since time immemorial, but why do we excuse this type of behavior from athletes when we wouldn’t tolerate it from ourselves?
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Jun 3, 2009 12:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
We'd all be unemployed and deemed "unhireable" and "mentally unstable"
But athletes are, like celebrities, “better human beings” or something. /sarcasm?/
I guess it’s one of the myriad inequalities in this world. And it’s frustrating, just like the many others that come to my head right now.
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
by chilango2 on Jun 3, 2009 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
….. my point is, given Zambrano’s history, I don’t see why it isn’t fair to call him unprofessional and immature. There’s years worth of evidence to support the conclusion, latest missed flight notwithstanding.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Jun 3, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well for one thing
because baseball has a history of arguing with the umps. So do all sports. You can’t just say “well, I’m an accountant, and I don’t get to take a bat to the calculator”. It’s high pressure, it’s high stress, every day people are watching your every move.
I’m rooting for my team in spite of the problems. I recognize the team is struggling. I root for them anyway.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would suggest
there are quite a lot of non-athletic jobs with an infinite amount more pressure than sports where the people involved don’t exhibit this type of behavior.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Jun 3, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
sure. like the military.
but it’s different pressure.
I’m rooting for my team in spite of the problems. I recognize the team is struggling. I root for them anyway.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or a D.A.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Jun 3, 2009 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
again
different kinds of pressure. And the job attracts different kinds of people. Eliot Spitzer was a DA. How’d he react to the pressure?
I’m rooting for my team in spite of the problems. I recognize the team is struggling. I root for them anyway.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When you get down to it....
…pressure is pressure. Why try to differentiate? I do child support enforcement, where we deal with two of the most emotional things for people, kids and money. D.A.‘s deal with personal liberty and often someone’s very life. CFO’s of large corporations, Obama, firemen, policemen, on and on, all deal with intense pressure, and for a lot less money than someone like Zambrano. None of any of that is simply a game. Now granted, baseball is big business as well, but as most of the well-adjusted players say “it’s just a game”. While the money isn’t a panacea for the pressure, what really is at stake in a game of baseball? A lot less than the examples I’ve cited. Yet, we continue to excuse all of the childish behavior.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Jun 3, 2009 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't excuse it.
I don’t care about it. He does his job. That’s what I care about. You WANT your players to be fired up.
They’re different jobs, with different pressure, which elicits different responses from different people. If you want to worry about how some of those people react, well, fine, but I’m not going to waste my time with it.
I’m rooting for my team in spite of the problems. I recognize the team is struggling. I root for them anyway.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Postal service
errrr……wait, my bad
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Jun 3, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's fair, but
he puts asses on the seats and eyes on the TVs. As long as he produces and brings in the moolah, his antics will be tolerated.
[“he” meaning whomever in the sports/entertainment world that does what’s described above.]
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
by chilango2 on Jun 3, 2009 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And in every walk of life the top producers are allowed to get away with more than the lesser producers.
I bet every person here has worked with someone who was the top producer at the office who was given a lot more leeway than others. Maybe even you’ve been that person.
Jay is our Quarterback. I REPEAT JAY IS OUR QUARTERBACK. Did I mention we have a Quarterback who happens to be named Jay?.
by cubstoseriesby100 on Jun 4, 2009 11:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
at a commercial collection agency this is called FFA
Fee Forgives All (fee is the percentage of the debt collected that the agency keeps as revenue). The person bringing in the money can take extra breaks, be late, leave early, not follow dress code, and it is just fine by management.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Jun 5, 2009 8:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
because when they're on their game
and winning, it feels better than a lot of other things.
It’s just the way it is, I guess. Frankly, I think the ridiculous amount of money they get paid is a much more significant issue.
I’m rooting for my team in spite of the problems. I recognize the team is struggling. I root for them anyway.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will wait to hear
why he missed his flight before I judge him. I will say though that his temper tantrums, antics etc. are getting old.
by sue369 on Jun 3, 2009 2:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree, that we cannot judge until we know
and who knwos if we ever know all of it.
now regarding his antics, and tantrums, it is funny that in other sports we welcome them and in baseball we do not. Am i saying that it is right or wrong, no, just pointing it out.
In football we love seeing a QB who gets on his blockers, we love to see a Center in hockey throw slam his helmet and stick in the penalty box, and have no complaints about chest bumping during a time out in basketball (not everyone agrees with each, but in general).
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Jun 3, 2009 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know what blockers like?
A QB who will take the blame even if they gave up the sack. It makes them work that much harder and they despise it when a QB shows them up.
Peyton Manning yells at his blockers. Tom Brady either doesn’t do it or does it in private.
Who has more rings?
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 3, 2009 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
by we I was saying fans, not players
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Jun 3, 2009 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW, From Bruce Miles:
I’m not sure this team can pull an ‘07, either. The thing saving them is the NL Central. Lou doesn’t seem to have it in him to help rally this bunch, as he did in ‘07. He seems more exasperated and resigned to things. Or maybe he knows the talent isn’t there. And look at the number of inexperienced players. I blogged about that last week, with all the players with under one and two years of experience.
As far as Zambrano goes, someone on the team will have to say something. From the reports coming out of Atlanta, his teammates were none too happy. In the past, guys like Bob Howry and Kerry Wood would handle such misbehavior. I’m thinking D-Lee, Soto and Reed Johnson are going to have to step up here.
I did say in this thread that missing a flight is breaking a team rule. That IS a big deal to the other players. Let’s see what the reason given turns out to be.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 2:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
wow..strong..very strong from Bruce Miles
What’s going on with this team?
by cubsnlinux on Jun 3, 2009 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And yet another reason why you don't just let players like Kerry Wood and Mark DeRosa go.
Teams need player-leaders. Who does this team have?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Jun 3, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, I take it you're backing down from the "killing puppies" sentiment?
I knew I was a bit edgy this morning, but I didn’t think what I wrote was all that bad. Seems not all that inaccurate, either, unfortunately.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Had I known we were letting go of the only guys qualified to burp Zambrano
I’d have been more against those moves
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 3, 2009 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I could have disagreed with that argument
if there were able replacements for Wood and DeRosa. But yes, Hendry messed up this off-season big time. I have a feeling that Hendry will blame this season’s epic fail (if there is one) on the ownership situation (He already started talking in this direction).
by cubsnlinux on Jun 3, 2009 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please explain to me how the presence of Kerry Wood and Mark DeRosa would have ensured that Z got on the plane
I’m serious. This player-leader stuff is BS, in my opinion
Some people have 3 layers, like pie. Blog Blog Blog
by berselius on Jun 3, 2009 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It wouldn't have ensured that
but in a broader sense the idea is that there needs to be a team leader(s) in the locker room.
by cubsnlinux on Jun 3, 2009 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe they would have held
him accountable and he would think twice about it happening again?
by sue369 on Jun 3, 2009 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, sure
then you would have an argument if Z missed two flights. But what we do know is that a) the Cubs are fining him, and b) the players are unhappy with Z, from what Bruce Miles said. Someone will let him know, and then we’ll see what happens
Some people have 3 layers, like pie. Blog Blog Blog
by berselius on Jun 3, 2009 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
how do they hold
Z accountable?
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So Howry was good for something last year
Nice to know
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 3, 2009 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
From Twittermeyer
Z on missed flight: ‘I got nothing to say.’
"This is an environment of welcoming, and you should just get the hell outta here." --Michael Scott
by Reddevil on Jun 3, 2009 3:11 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
then there's no way
to draw conclusions. If his teammates are unhappy with him, they’ll let him know.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Bruce's post gives a pretty big hint
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only if you're not blind to it
I don’t meant that badly, drew. I wish I had your optimism sometimes.
And I have my guys too. I defend Bradley more than most and will defend Fukudome to the death.
I think Z is a problem. You don’t.
But at least acknowledge that something is wrong with him and his teammates.
And if Zambrano was busy rescuing puppies from a burning building, he would have said so.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 3, 2009 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you meant to reply to Drew there, Worf....
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thought I did.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 3, 2009 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope -- click "up" in your reply
You replied to me. No biggie, just lettin’ ya know.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did acknowledge it
If his teammates are unhappy with him, they’ll let him know.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's not acknowledging a problem
That’s stating that someone will attempt to resolve a problem if it exists
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and that's as far as I'm going to go with it.
I’m sick and tired of people suggesting that they can read Z’s mind, or decide that he’s a baby. We do not know why he missed the plane. We’re not going to know. Any conclusions are sheer speculation and the worst kind of gossip — ethically equal to BLou accusing Soto of juicing because Soto weighs more this year.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really, no
BLou is stating something as fact with pure conjecture to back it up. We have a lot of anecdotal evidence regarding Zambrano’s maturity.
While I don’t think Bruce Miles writes the gospel, I think he’s pretty reliable and has integrity — he’s said things like this before. I doubt he’s doing that to sell papers. Al might have an opinion on that; I believe they know each other personally.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think
that you can apply anecdotal “evidence” not related to missing a plane to missing a plane.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That doesn't make sense
There is conclusive evidence that he missed it. There is conclusive evidence that by doing so, he broke a team rule.
There is a mountain of anecdotal evidence beyond this one episode that there may be maturity issues. Last week, for example.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
there's no evidence
for WHY. that’s all.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, I see what you are saying
However, in this case, the burden is on Zambrano to explain it. Not to us, but it is to the team. And I strongly suspect that if he had a good reason, the team would make a statement saying so — even if they didn’t reveal what that reason was.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's fair enough.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps and most likely he did but he was still fined for not telling the team.
And like the team and manager knew about Dempster’s situation and it wasn’t publicized for awhile perhaps there’s something in Zs family.
Hope the reason isn’t a problem in his family.
Jay is our Quarterback. I REPEAT JAY IS OUR QUARTERBACK. Did I mention we have a Quarterback who happens to be named Jay?.
by cubstoseriesby100 on Jun 4, 2009 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Possible, but the ST, DH and Trib coverage implies otherwise
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 4, 2009 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reading Z's mind?
It’s a terribly short read.
The “Bash Carlos Society” only needs one person to make things happen, and Zambrano continues to inspire.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
by tville on Jun 3, 2009 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s what I mean by hate.
Jay is our Quarterback. I REPEAT JAY IS OUR QUARTERBACK. Did I mention we have a Quarterback who happens to be named Jay?.
by cubstoseriesby100 on Jun 5, 2009 8:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
superfluous |soōˈpərfləwəs|
adjective
1. unnecessary, esp. through being more than enough
"I'll never forget how I felt last October." ~Kosuke Fukudome
by Goodie1969 on Jun 5, 2009 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't.
He’s not going to talk about it to the press. That’s all we know.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And that tells us loads
If he had a valid reason, he’d be trumpeting it. Even if was some medical family thing he didn’t want to get into, he’d say, “It’s a medical family thing.”
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 3, 2009 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe
maybe not. Maybe he’s decided he likes Milton Bradley’s method of press avoidance.
The point is, we don’t know. We can draw no conclusions.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We can make reasonable inferences, though
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
you can do a lot of things. I refuse to condemn one of my favorite players on my favorite team for motivation, when I don’t know what that motivation is.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no problem with that statement or sentiment.
Especially because it contains an implied admission of bias.
However, don’t condemn those of us who think that there are issues. Someone commented elsewhere in here that no matter what, this is the opposite of what the team needs right now. I agree with that, too.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
both you guys need to just agree to disagree already.
by CubsFanInWisconsin on Jun 5, 2009 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You responded to a comment from two days earlier
We’d already disagreed to disagree. Your comment was not necessary and ironic in the sense that you’re telling us to knock it off a long time after we’d essentially come to a resolution.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 6, 2009 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
*agreed to disagree
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 6, 2009 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just another drop in the bucket
from a Cub team that is quickly moving up the list of all-time disappointments.
I’m not that old, but to be at the top of that list takes some trying.
"This is an environment of welcoming, and you should just get the hell outta here." --Michael Scott
by Reddevil on Jun 3, 2009 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Drew, no offense, but
You are blindly defending him here. I realize that’s in the same spirit with your fanpost from today, but do you remember our first interaction on BCB? I remember it — You were ripping on Marquis, who had pitched a pretty decent ballgame, for no other reason than he was Jason Marquis. We had a few of those discussions last year.
If Zambrano pitched the same kind of game that I"m referring to, and someone was critical, you’d go ape over it. All I’m saying is, be consistent — and a bit more objective.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've also said more than once
that I was unfair to Marquis, and that he was a decent #5.
I’m not blindly defending Z. I’m saying that WE DO NOT KNOW.
We don’t know. It appears that we’ll never know. I’m ok with that, and I don’t need to read anything into it.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll give you credit on the Marquis thing, then
And you are right — we don’t know. However, we have a reasonable guess with mounting evidence.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
we don't have
any evidence of anything.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, no offense, but if you believe that
I want you on the jury if I ever commit a crime.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you damn well do want me on a jury if you ever commit a crime.
Innocent until proven guilty is a building block for this country.
And I won’t believe anything about Z that isn’t proven.
Temper — sure.
Volatile — sure.
Passionate — damn skippy.
Missed the plane on purpose — insufficient evidence.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No argument with your points
And I’m not saying he missed it on purpose — he didn’t purposely make it, either. If that was David Patton without a good reason, he’d be gone before BLou could say, “Pitching is king.” But because it’s Carlos Zamrbano, he gets away with that crap — and teammates notice it.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd bet you a dollar
that Patton wouldn’t be DFAd for missing a plane, except we have no way of knowing unless Patton misses a plane.
Like I said — if his teammates have a problem, they’ll deal with it. They’re the ones in a position to know, if anyone is.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Vizcaino was DFA'd for missing meetings
With an ERA of 0.00.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 3, 2009 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
Viz =/= Patton. If it were Cotts, I bet he’d be DFAd too.
I still think Lou never really intended to play Viz.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 3, 2009 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not a leap of faith
to say Z screwed up here.
Given his quote, given Lou’s public comments, and throw in Sullivan’s reportage.
How bad we don’t know. But the guy is currently on suspension and I think it’s fair to say this is the opposite of what this team needs right now. The Opposite.
"This is an environment of welcoming, and you should just get the hell outta here." --Michael Scott
by Reddevil on Jun 3, 2009 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will repeat
In 2004, the Red Sox were talented, but underachieving. They had a franchise icon in Nomar who was angry, frustrated and had nagging injuries.
His greatest “sin” was not cheering his teammates on during a Yankees game, but he also had problems with the media and fans.
He was paid like the best hitter on the team, and one of the best in the league, but he really wasn’t any longer.
Carlos is our Nomar.
He has finally irritated his teammates. He has had problems with umps and the media. He is paid like the best pitcher on the team, and one of the best in the league, but he isn’t.
Nomar had a no-trade clause too.
The Red Sox traded Nomar and lost some offense. But they picked up defense and more importantly, sent two messages
1) No one is untouchable
2) Sulkers will not be tolerated
The Cubs should suspend Zambrano two more games on top of what he got. If he gets the message, great.
If he sulks and starts thinking he wants out, well, that can be great too.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 3, 2009 3:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Why don't you just copy this and repost it everytime you want to write something about
him? You’ve said this several times before. How about something new?
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jun 3, 2009 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because every time Zambrano pulls a stunt like this
It makes a little more sense and needs repeated.
I’m trying to convert people here. You don’t do that with one post.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 3, 2009 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you really think that they are going to trade him now? His value is at it's lowest point
right now. You really don’t want to cut off your nose to spite your face. No one in untradeable, but you want to get value for a guy like him. Do you think you would get the best value for him right now?
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jun 3, 2009 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He doesn’t care. He’s more of a Zambrano hater than a Cubs fan.
Jay is our Quarterback. I REPEAT JAY IS OUR QUARTERBACK. Did I mention we have a Quarterback who happens to be named Jay?.
by cubstoseriesby100 on Jun 4, 2009 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again with the hate stuff
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 4, 2009 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Worf posts hatefilled personal attacks against Zambrano so it’s appropriate.
When people post thought out criticisms and even maybe one personal attack it’s one thing.
When people spew hate like Worf does it’s another.
Jay is our Quarterback. I REPEAT JAY IS OUR QUARTERBACK. Did I mention we have a Quarterback who happens to be named Jay?.
by cubstoseriesby100 on Jun 4, 2009 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And you will be sayinh Go Braves Go tonight because Carlos is starting.
Thank you for making it clear as day you root for the other team 1 out of every 5 days.
Jay is our Quarterback. I REPEAT JAY IS OUR QUARTERBACK. Did I mention we have a Quarterback who happens to be named Jay?.
by cubstoseriesby100 on Jun 4, 2009 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absurd
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 4, 2009 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shanghai if you can’t see the difference between normal thought out criticism and Wor’f’s nasty attacks.
Anyone who doesn’t care if it hurts the team just as long as a player is gone he roots against him.
Maybe he just roots for Carlos not to win the game not for the Cubs to lose.
But anyone who wants any player on the team not to do well.
Jay is our Quarterback. I REPEAT JAY IS OUR QUARTERBACK. Did I mention we have a Quarterback who happens to be named Jay?.
by cubstoseriesby100 on Jun 4, 2009 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't bother, Badger
For her, anytime someone criticizes a player, it’s “hate” and “rooting against.”
Life is so simple for people that see the world in black-and-white. I envy them.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jun 4, 2009 6:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have repeatedly posted personal hate filled attacks.
You want him gone you don’t care for who you want him gone.
You make personal attacks.
Only when someone posts hate filled posts over and over again do I call it hate.
Jay is our Quarterback. I REPEAT JAY IS OUR QUARTERBACK. Did I mention we have a Quarterback who happens to be named Jay?.
by cubstoseriesby100 on Jun 4, 2009 11:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It may be at its lowest point, so far...
His value could easily go lower if his health problems return or if his control falters, or if he has any more meltdowns. The only way a trade happens is if he gets deep in Lou’s doghouse, and if we eat a big portion of the contract. What team would be in the market for someone like this? What could we reasonably expect to get back? I doubt a trade happens in this climate. In any case, are the Cubs buyers or sellers?
by neifiisgreat on Jun 3, 2009 4:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
He is easily my most...
“Frustrating Cub”, but he’s still a big contributor to the team.
He’s an adult making millions and it seems reasonable to expect him to act professionally. Okay, so that doesn’t happen at times (mores so with him it seems). Probably every team in the league has someone like Z, but it’s more frustrating given his talent and how he can help this team win.
This is what I expect from Z, it’s not even newsworthy to me. But he’s a valuable player to this team and we need him, even with the B.S.
by DudeVf11 on Jun 4, 2009 8:10 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Amazing
Amazing the media compares him to Michael Vick and then wonder why he doesn’t kiss their butts.
of course we had some here making the same comparison. Hope they don’t have any pets as they consider a gatorade cooler the same as dogs.
Jay is our Quarterback. I REPEAT JAY IS OUR QUARTERBACK. Did I mention we ha

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