Revisit the question of Soriano at 2B

by LAcarl519 on Jun 30, 2009 6:18 PM CDT Comment 32 comments

I know this question was touched on a couple of times when Al wrote his piece on "how to improve the Cubs" but I think it deserves another look. If we can assume two givens (1) the Cubs are going to keep Soriano and (2) Lou will keep him at the top of the order, to me, there are two questions about where he plays in the field: (a) what position has the least burden on his legs (which may help his offense) and (b) which position makes him less of a liability to the defense?

I assume the rest of you have noticed that Soriano continues to get late brakes (or takes a bad angle) on many fly balls and he seems to be missing at least one to two balls a game that even average outfielders would catch. The problems seem to be getting worse, not better as the season progresses. Maybe it is the time of the year and much of the game is played in twilight this time of year, but either way, it just seems that Soriano has much more trouble with the sky or wind than the guy on the other team.

I know that "dtpolitt" did a great job of posting Fonzi's UZR for LF v 2B and quoted that his LF stats are +18.6, but I know what my eyes tell me. Does UZR pick up a stat where Fonzi takes a bad angle and turns a single into a double but it is not called an error? I think not. I think 2Bmen handle almost everything hit at them, so almost every miscue is called an error, versus many miscues in the outfield (late breaks, balls lost in the sun, etc...) are often called hits (think Ryan Braun with no errors as a LF--did he really change in one year?). I think an outfielder gets a UZR positive bias (versus a SS or 2B) when they are a tad slow to the ball...just a hunch.

But I also think Fonzi's offense may improve if his knees have less stress in the infield and he platoons a bit with LBR. Would our LF defense be that much worse with Hoff and Fox alternating? Wouldn't this move also allow us to get rid of Miles and keep Fox on the roster? As Bob Brenly recently said as Soriano once again mis-played a fly ball, "what is all this concern I am hearing about Fox's defense?" Before we laugh off moving Soriano to 2B, I think Lou and Fonzi have to think about what is best for his body, the batting order and the roster. In either defensive position, he is some measure of liability. The question is, where does he give us more roster flexibility? I thik Lou should try him at 2B. It's not like he is batting .320 and we don't want to disturb a good thing that we have going.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Hand meet face

$136 million payroll for a .500 style ballclub. Good work Jim.

by BLou on Jun 30, 2009 7:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

im not even going to read this

this team sucks. i dont care where soriano plays, he will suck defensively regardless.

by Glacier on Jun 30, 2009 8:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

lets not

and just trade for freddy sanchez

by TJ3117 on Jun 30, 2009 8:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

+ 1

by Pre on Jun 30, 2009 10:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

At this point, why trade FOR anyone?

It’s fire sale time.

Goal#1: lose as many big contracts as possible, period.

"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."

by The Jade Scorpion on Jun 30, 2009 8:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

you think playing him at 2b

will HELP his knees?

I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.

by drewishdrewid on Jun 30, 2009 9:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

NO...............Benching him will

"We got some pretty good chemistry here. We got some toughness, and it's starting to show." - Lou Pinella

by Clutche on Jun 30, 2009 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If he's hurt, he shouldn't play.

If he’s not, he should be in the outfield. You put defensive liabilities on the field when they’re a good bat. Putting Soriano on the DL until further notice would probably be a great move. Let’s get his legs 110% instead of just grinding them worse every day, and then give him a chance to come back and help this team at full strength. Not a second base though – we have a great platoon of Blanco theriot and Font who all field very well already.

by DisCUBbobulated on Jun 30, 2009 9:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I bet he goes on the DL

when Rami comes back. Even two weeks of rest and strengthening would help.

by drewishdrewid on Jun 30, 2009 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Please make that four weeks

"We got some pretty good chemistry here. We got some toughness, and it's starting to show." - Lou Pinella

by Clutche on Jun 30, 2009 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

go on now

the adults are talking.

by drewishdrewid on Jul 1, 2009 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If that's the case I'm not sure who should get indicted

So, you have an injured player that can’t perform to a decent level not only in relation to his past statistics but in comparison to an average player and you let him perform at this horrible pace knowing he is injured just because you don’t want two stars on the DL at the same time?

If he can’t play because of injury, he can’t play. Drew, please don’t think I am directing this at you, but if that’s the Cubs reasoning, that’s the dumbest thing I have heard in a long, long time.

by jerry morales rules on Jul 1, 2009 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think

that it was viewed as untenable to have Sori and Rami on the DL at the same time.

by drewishdrewid on Jul 1, 2009 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Right

and the person who thought it was a better idea to put Soriano out there even though he was unable to play the game to even an average level should be held to account.

That was a colossaly stupid decision.

by jerry morales rules on Jul 1, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I might try it once but for a different reason...

I agree that infield would actually be harder on his legs. And it’s hard to tell w/ Alf since he’s one of the most mystifying players I’ve ever seen (he’s totally locked in OR looks like a single A player, no in-between). If his problem is one of focus, maybe standing there disinterested at second for awhile would help. Lots of guys carry their defense to the plate with them, can’t hit when they’re only DH’ing, etc.

He could well boot three grounders and throw a DP relay into the seats and if so, experiment over. But since he went 0 for June, why not try something else to change the mojo?

"I showed him the cheese then punched him out with the yakker." -- Eck

by kentmeister on Jul 1, 2009 7:25 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

No, look at his fielding stats

In 2005, the last year Soriano played 2nd, his UZR was -18.5.

I’m pretty sure it will be significantly worse after having not played the position in 3 years.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=847&position=2B/OF#fielding

by dr stabbingworth on Jul 1, 2009 8:05 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I would be in favor of Sori at 2B...

Only if we trade for Holliday. Rumors are that St Louis is after Holliday pretty hard, that would definitely help out the Cardinals and protecting Pujols (just what they need right).

Personally, i dont think Soriano should even be playing, the other day my wife even said, “sooo these pitchers have finally figured it out, throw everything in the dirt to Soriano and he will swing”. I fell out of my chair in excitement, my wife actually did more than just watch the game, she understood it!

I would like to see Lou tell Soriano, go up in yur first at bat of the game, and dont swing at a single pitch. Just watch every ball come in. I bet you 9 out of 10 times he would walk.

"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"

by HIGGY on Jul 1, 2009 8:25 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

If we're going to do that...

… go get Adam Dunn instead. Holliday appears to be a classic Coors Field hitter, while Dunn can hit anywhere.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al on Jul 1, 2009 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Do you actually believe playing the infield

would be easier on his bum knee? Really, you actually believe that? Wow!

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill

by lookingdeadred on Jul 1, 2009 8:41 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Yes. I do agree that Fonzi initially needs a stint on the DL, but after that

I think playing 2B would be easier for him physically and he can platoon (less playing time over all) with LBR. This will be better for his knees. Until he proves he is more than a .230 hitter with limited power, I think we need to GET HIM OUT OF THE OUTFIELD where we can platoon much more productive hitters.

You all seem to be missing this part of my discussion. It is not just what Soriano brings to the infield, but what the new players in LF will add to the equation.

Is our current platoon at 2B (LBR/Miles/Blanco) really that productive offensively or defensively?

"If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong." - a well known stock market guru

by LAcarl519 on Jul 1, 2009 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Um, yeah, LBR and Blanco are both plus defenders.

And I still disagree about the infield being easier on Soriano’s legs. Playing second base requires much more sudden, explosive shifts in direction, which would be harder on his legs than the long, loping strides he can take in left field.

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by dat cubfan daver on Jul 1, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sori should be playing second and batting leadoff

For Iowa

by nks6911 on Jul 1, 2009 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

the point you seem unwilling or unable to grasp is

playing 2b would be harder on his knee than playing LF. Add that to the fact that he is a truly awful 2b defensively even when he was actually playing 2b on a regular basis. Playing Soriano at 2b is a monumentally bad idea. If you have to get Soriano out of the outfield because of his knee, DL him and let his knee rest. Playing him at 2b would make things far worse, for Soriano and the Cubs.

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill

by lookingdeadred on Jul 2, 2009 8:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Soriano for Wells/Rios!

MWAHAHAHA I am a mad scientist.

Get Peavy already! I want my #44 jersey!

by Cub Style on Jul 1, 2009 9:18 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I would ask any Cubs fan...

…who seriously suggests putting Alfonso Soriano at second base the following question: Do you like double plays?

Seriously, do you like them? Because I, for one, cannot picture Soriano turning a double play. I mean, I’m assuming he did so a few times in the seasons during which he played second base. But I just can’t see it happening now.

I mean, can you picture him taking a flip from Theriot, pivoting and firing to first with a runner bearing down on him? I just can’t see it – at least not at first. And how many innings – how many God awful, run-costing innings – would it take him to “settle in” to his old, horrible defensive self?

For God’s sake, if he’s going to play, leave him in left field. And I think it’s time to revisit the option of putting him on the DL. He gave this team a .585 OPS in 115 PAs June. That’s just a monumental fail. If I’m reading baseball-reference correctly, that’s the lowest OPS he’s put up in any month he’s been a Cub with at least 100 PAs. It may be the lowest OPS he’s put up in any one month of his career. I looked back to only 2005.

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by dat cubfan daver on Jul 1, 2009 10:22 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs

That's probably a lower

OPS than Jason Dubois or Juan Pierre ever put up.

DEJESUS!!!

by tomas21 on Jul 1, 2009 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm afraid to look...

…but you’re probably right. Whatever you do, don’t look at Fukudome’s June OPS.

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by dat cubfan daver on Jul 1, 2009 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

aaaaaaaiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeee!

the eyes, they burn…

by drewishdrewid on Jul 1, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I just want to comment on the author's doubting of UZR

I don’t think UZR is perfect. But unlike error counts, UZR should, by design, factor in a player’s positioning and the kind of jump he gets. The basic idea is that it looks at the area of the field each ball is hit to and its trajectory. For each area and trajectory a fielder will convert the ball into an out a certain percentage of the time. If the fielder in this case makes an out he’ll get credit and if he doesn’t he’s penalized, the amount based on how unusually good or bad the play was. If a fielder fails to make an out, whether its due to a bad jump or a drop, it counts the same.

That’s not to say there aren’t systemic biases in UZR. The person that records whether a hit was a “line drive” or a “fly ball”, I believe, is usually the same all year at a given ballpark, and ballparks have been shown to have quite different LD and FB rates, presumably as a result of this. The placement of outfield walls, atmospheric tendencies, your manager’s default defensive alignment, your teammates’ defensive tendencies, and your division rivals’ hitting tendencies can cause systemic bias as well. But there shouldn’t be a bias towards or against players that get good or bad breaks — as I understand it, in UZR the fielder is never subjectively judged.

by aldimond on Jul 1, 2009 2:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

again my point is that outfielders have a positive bias just by getting to play outfield.

Ryan Braun IMPROVED by +32 UZR points last year by moving from 3B to LF. As Brenly often pointed out, he was not a very good outfielder who made bad breaks on balls and had trouble out there. He only had a -3 or os UZR in his first year in LF. I am saying infield is much tougher to play so it brings with it a tougher bias, IMO. I know what my eyes tell me from watching games every day. I like all this statistical analysis and I think it is great that there are all these attempts to capture playing ability statistically. I just don’t think UZR on its own is perfect. We can use it in conjunction with what our eyes tell us too.

It seems that I will always have this argument with stat hounds, but tell me, did Braun really get that much better? I know he cost the Brewers less games as a LF then as a 3B, but the difference was not 32 games better.

"If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong." - a well known stock market guru

by LAcarl519 on Jul 1, 2009 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

UZR measures runs saved, not games.

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by dat cubfan daver on Jul 1, 2009 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

you understand my point...

you think Braun made a 32 run difference in ’08 versus ’07? Was he (Braun) that much less of a liability in LF? I always think a run costs you a game. But lets just say +32 runs—try to answer the question: do you really think this UZR can factually measure the play BETWEEN positions like OF and IF. I say no. I do think the UZR can be useful to measure the play of outfielders against each other, and infielders against each other—but the more you change the geography, the less useful UZR is for comparing players, IMO.

That is why I say using this for making a decision about where to play Soriano is not useful. We know he (or Braun) are liabilities no matter where they play. My question is, can moving him back to 2B open up better roster spots in the OF? The intellectual discussion is fun, if nothing else…

"If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong." - a well known stock market guru

by LAcarl519 on Jul 1, 2009 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs