Fandom Redux
This is meant as a response to a lot of the discussions that have been going on lately and not a knock on Drew’s post from last week.
A lot of the topics discussed on this board are polarizing. Maybe it’s only my perception, but it seems like it’s gotten more extreme in the past few weeks. Some people seem to have lost the ability to disagree with someone else without attacking the individual instead of responding to the comments themselves. Or worse yet, take critical opinions of others and jump to absurd conclusions about the other person’s devotion to the Cubs or accuse them of saying things that they aren’t.
With that preamble, here is the kind of fan I am:
When the Cubs stink up the joint, I acknowledge it. If I notice something about team personnel, I’ll usually file it away and look for a pattern. If I see a pattern, it becomes an opinion – one that I’m not afraid to express. I can’t read minds, but most adults can make reasonable conclusions based on observations. Yes, I can and will be critical of the Chicago National League Ballclub and members thereof. I don’t believe that makes me any less of a fan.
I also will see a pitching matchup of, say, Doug Bird vs. Steve Carlton and still watch the game fully expecting the Cubs to have a chance to somehow find a way to win. I don’t believe that makes me any more of a fan.
As I’ve move through my mid-thirties, the games no longer influence my mood the way that they did when I was in my teens or twenties. I still want the Cubs to win during every game. The tough losses still bug me, but usually not for as long as they used to – as I realize this isn’t real life. I don’t believe that makes me any less of a fan.
I’ll wear Cubs gear in Milwaukee, New York City, Cincinnati, Shanghai, Singapore, Sydney or wherever the hell else I find myself. At a game or on the street, and I’ll engage anyone in conversation about the Cubs if they want – whether they’re being friendly about it or not. I don’t believe that makes me any more of a fan.
If someone else points out a flaw in something that I’ve said, I’ll listen to them as objectively as I can – assuming that it is presented in a reasonable manner. This doesn’t mean that I’ll change my mind, but I’m willing to accept that my thoughts may be incorrect. I don’t believe that makes me any more or less of a fan.
If someone says something that I think is inaccurate or unfair, I’ll usually respond. (More often than I should, really.) However, I will not take each and every comment critical of the Cubs and feel the need to ride to the defense of someone’s honor when I’ve never met that individual like I would for a personal friend or family member. I most certainly don’t believe that a player is beyond reproach – regardless of who it is. I don’t believe that makes me any less of a fan.
Finally, I won’t presume to know how much of a fan someone I’ve never met is solely based on them not agreeing with each and every opinion that I have. I do believe that makes me reasonable.
Go Cubs
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
9 recs |
45 comments
Comments
Again, well said
And as I commented on Drew’s post, whether I agree with you or not, you’ve never been unreasonable or inconsiderate with me, and that is appreciated. The nice thing about BCB is our differing opinions, and being able to discuss them with other loyal fans. You are a different fan than me, we are both different from Drew, yet we are all great fans. Go Cubs!
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Jun 8, 2009 2:40 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
BCB’s kinda stunk lately. Every body’s words are taken way too literally, and more and more of the discussions are “he said she said” SNAFUs than actual dialogue. I’ve noticed more people getting called-out for not agreeing with the masses. There’s almost more pleasure found in ranting and raving than talking actual Cubs shop. I’ve hovered in the game threads lately because when we lose, the trolls and pseudo-trolls come out.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 8, 2009 2:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Such is typical of the fanbase when a high-expectation team struggles...
People are on edge. There’s a lot of frustration, and unfortunately people are taking it out on each other.
by SouthernCub on Jun 8, 2009 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I would ask again for people NOT to do that.
There is NO reason to personally attack someone just because you disagree with him or her.
Criticize the position, do so in a friendly way — that’s what this site is supposed to be about.
NO personal attacks. NO namecalling. Period.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Jun 8, 2009 8:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said Shanghai
I hate the exaggerating of a poster’s positions and lumping them in with other posters. There are some very intelligent people around here and very many good debates. But the juvenile name calling because you don’t like their opinion or are tired of the debate is very tiresome. You can disagree without being disagreeable or challenging their official fan status.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
by KaliCub on Jun 8, 2009 2:51 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
+1
This has become a real pet peeve of mine lately too.
Rather than respond to the post and the poster in front of them, many people seem to, as you say, “lump them in with other posters”, and respond to some caricature of a ledge-jumper or D-Lee hater or sunshine-pumper or whatever…
Pumping sunshine for the Cubs since 1968 (yeah, that's right I was a Cubs fan in the womb!)
by CubFanInCanberra (9387milesfromWrigley) on Jun 9, 2009 12:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shanghai, you're always sensible.
And you’re a Badger, so +1 from this guy.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 8, 2009 3:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
+1 for being a Badger and also for this statement
I won’t presume to know how much of a fan someone I’ve never met is solely based on them not agreeing with each and every opinion that I have. I do believe that makes me reasonable.
I wish that could automatically be posted in every thread.
"That's what you live for. You live for the opportunity and when that day comes, you better be ready," Soto said. "I tried to make sure that whenever they gave me a chance, I was ready and I knew I had to take advantage of the opportunity."
by Madison Cub Fan on Jun 9, 2009 1:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd be happy
if this starts a trend, and more people talk about the kind of fan they are. :D
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 8, 2009 3:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The whole
“I don’t agree so you must be an idiot” element is always annoying, but this string of poor play has brought out the worst in everyone.
There is no infinity button for failing in sports. At some point, things turn. They always do. - Bill Simmons
by Allie on Jun 8, 2009 3:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
True, but it's not just poor team play.
Rebuttal with fact does not seem to assist in solving disagreements anymore. Too many posters refuse to accept anything that refutes an opinion.
P.S. like the post Badger.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Jun 8, 2009 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
N. Oakley I totally agree with that.
Rarely wants to admit they are ever wrong even when it turns out that they are, we either have doom and gloom or rainbows and unicorns. I don’t squirm off when I’m wrong about something. I admit it. Last year besides Ryan Theriot debate, most people here were civil (with an exception) or two of course. It was fun to come here.
"That's what you live for. You live for the opportunity and when that day comes, you better be ready," Soto said. "I tried to make sure that whenever they gave me a chance, I was ready and I knew I had to take advantage of the opportunity."
by Madison Cub Fan on Jun 9, 2009 12:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps, but why would you argue against an opinion?
Feel free to state your facts and make your case if you are so inclined. But realize that the other person is proffering up an opinion, one they may feel strongly about. And the very nature of an opinion is that it doesn’t have to be based on fact.
So while it may frustrate you that they cling to their belief in the face of all your facts, it should not consume you. Shake your head, chuckle softly, and move on. You’ll live longer.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jun 9, 2009 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that is a two way street
if someone opens their opinion up for discussion on BCB, they should be prepared for conversation about it.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Jun 8, 2009 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Usually
but someone should be able to say something in passing without being ripped for it.
And I think lots more people should be able to excerise that old cliche “pick your battles” so many discussions here (and everywhere on the internet) don’t ever even need to happen. If everyone just took a breath and decided to not respond to things, can you imagine how fewer arguments would happen?
There is no infinity button for failing in sports. At some point, things turn. They always do. - Bill Simmons
by Allie on Jun 8, 2009 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My secret to avoiding arguments..
.. is simple.
Probably around 50% of the time that I type in a response to a comment, I end up hitting Cancel instead of Post. Seriously, I reckon it’s about half the time.
Sometimes it’s because I’m responding too harshly or negatively — I catch myself from saying something in the heat of the moment. But more often it’s simply because I realize that either: a) I’m not going to convince the other person; b) they’re not even likely to be willing to listen to an opposing viewpoint; c) no matter how carefully I state my disagreement, they are going to find a way to take offense; or d) all of the above.
(The corollary of this is that if I do respond to something you post, then you should take it as a compliment that I don’t think you’re irrational and will misinterpret what I say.. lol)
Pumping sunshine for the Cubs since 1968 (yeah, that's right I was a Cubs fan in the womb!)
by CubFanInCanberra (9387milesfromWrigley) on Jun 9, 2009 12:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've cancelled a few posts in my time, too...
…and it’s a good skill to develop. Unfortunately, many people – myself included, at times – lack the impulse control to do this.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 9, 2009 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well done
As someone that has been more negative than positive towards this team in 2009, I couldn’t agree more. There was a time that I was like some on here, an eternal optimist, but at some point reality set in and I became more cognizant of what type of team the Cubs had at each specific point in time. I am no longer able to simply bang the drum for every player wearing a Cub uniform, and that is OK.
I don’t mean to offend anyone by making a post that may not exactly coincide with their individual thoughts on this particular Cubs team and take absolutely no pride in pissing anyone off. By the same token, I continue to find it fascinating that someone, anyone would get so animated or easily disgruntled with words that pop up on a message board screen, whether positive or negative in tone.
I honestly don’t care if anyone agrees with me or disagrees with me on anything that I may say or invent. I’m guessing that is kind of the intent of the site in the first place. I firmly believe that the comments of others should have absolutely no impact on my enjoyment of this site and refuse to let them do so. This is an outlet for Cubs fans of all shapes, sizes, and so on and that is how I treat it. Perhaps not as “positively” as some might like but it’s still a daily outlet to make my thoughts on the Cubs known (or vented) whether wrong or right.
As I’ve said before, I don’t care about being right or wrong. I truly want the Cubs to win every single game yet and won’t apologize when they do. Nor will I sugar coat what I perceive to be play or players that aren’t owning up to their responsibilities to their employer…the Cubs organization.
I can’t be rosy when I don’t see roses and I won’t pretend to be such. If/when the Cubs start playing better baseball, I may not be overly glowing unless I am satisfied that what I’ve seen actually correlates to continued better baseball. This is not a creed of any sorts but more a stream of consciousness brought out in part by this post.
I am a Cubs fan. I am a loyal Cubs fan. I will always be a Cubs fan. I may not always believe that tomorrow will be better based on my analysis of today. No matter, I am still a Cubs fan. I am still a loyal Cubs fan. I will always be a Cubs fan.
Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?
by krummy12 on Jun 9, 2009 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nicely put
A lot of us could learn from that – myself included.
I appreciate all the kind things that people have said in this post, but I need to add something.
One of the motivating factors for me posting this was the fact that I’d become unhappy with my own “onscreen personna” over the previous few days, and was planning to just stay away for a bit (but then had a slow morning). I’d allowed myself to be drawn in to arguments and refute what I saw as faulty logic when I wasn’t involved in the original discussion in the first place. Now, I know myself better than to think that I’ll be able to stop doing that for any length of time, but I can think of at least a couple of times when I should have employed the “type, read, cancel” method to ensure that if I was going to get involved that my response was toned down a bit.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 9, 2009 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed...again
I agree with you Badger, I feel the same way about my own on screen persona and didn’t realize it until you posted this. I feel as though I’ve lately come across as an overly critical “fan” that relishes in the bad times just so that I can whine and complain…and despite how my recent posts may have been written, that is truly not the case. I’ve said before that the Cubs don’t define me and to some extent I guess they do. My mood is better when they win and a tad worse when they lose but at the end of the day, it’s still just a 3-hour (or more) diversion from reality.
The frustration of years gone by probably has played a part in the frustration I’ve felt so far this year and maybe it has been my absolute refusal to witness a slide back from what had been done in 2007 and 2008 that has fueled it further. Under more normal circumstances, meaning the years in which the Cubs have been literally on the perimeter of contention at this stage of the season, I would be the one claiming that things are at the bottom and they should be happy to be still in the thick of things. For whatever reason, I haven’t been able to come to grips with that in 2009.
So thanks Badger. Effecitve immediately, I’m turning the page. If the Cubs can use yesterday’s off day and 14-inning win on Sunday as a spring board forward, I can too. I’ll still point out what I perceive to be failings if I feel I’ve seen them, but otherwise, it’s back to enjoying the journey…something I recognize I probably haven’t as much so far in 2009. It’s all about the journey…the reward is just gravy.
Most importantly, GO CUBS.
Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?
by krummy12 on Jun 9, 2009 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right that...
… it’s hard to be rosy when you don’t see roses. Criticize when warranted… I think everyone would back you up on that.
Just don’t be nasty to other posters (not saying you were, either). That’s all I ask.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Jun 9, 2009 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
rec'd
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Jun 9, 2009 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you hands down
but the example I am using, is a post where a person says “x player sucks and is lazy” and gets defensive when given proof otherwise. If a person makes their opinion public forum on here, especially when they create the thread, they should expect conversation about it and be prepared to be challanged on the stance. It does not make their opinion wrong, it just means the opinion needs to be justified.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Jun 9, 2009 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well in the interest of this thread
I will respond lightly and simply:
o⋅pin⋅ion
/əˈpɪnyən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uh-pin-yuhn] Show IPA
–noun
1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
I skipped the parts about a judge because we are not in a legal forum.
My point is this…opinions can be stated without factual support because they are not to “produce complete certainty”. Should one disagree with an opinion great. If it is done son appropriately without terms such as “idiot” and “moron”, then it is a discussion. If at the end of that discussion the two parties still do not agree, then so be it. To each their own.
Lastly, if one chooses to defend their opinion here, are they “defensive” or could that just be you misreading frustration with unwarranted personal attacks?
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 9, 2009 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
I’m not sure who I was talking about this with, but one reason I spend less time on here than I use to is it seems to be much more about posters personalities battles rather than the Cubs.
With that being said, this is not a message board. If you are going to put yourself out there and use BCB as a soapbox to bitch (or vice versa) without substance you deserve to get called out. I love to hear different opinions other than my own, but I expect them to be well thought out.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Jun 8, 2009 3:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
See above definition of "opinion"
it could help with your definition of other terms such as “bitch”. I think your views may be a bit narrow. But that is just my “opinion”.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 9, 2009 9:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the No. 1 most important word you use is "reasonable."
That’s really the key – being reasonable about the team and one’s own opinions. Vitriol usually breaks out when one or the other (or both) is lacking. Of course, I realize that reasonability, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 8, 2009 4:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Are you suggesting, sir...
that my mother’s decree on how cute I am is up for debate?
by CubsWin!Oregon on Jun 8, 2009 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, you could post a Fanshot and we could have at it.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jun 8, 2009 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I cringe at what people...
would surely say about my sweet mother.
by CubsWin!Oregon on Jun 8, 2009 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's all due to site growth
The more people on the site, the more flare ups there are.
Not sure how many people read Penny-Arcade, but this strip sums up a lot of things that happen. Some NSFW language, and ignore the “unreal 2004” bit.
But it only makes sense. The higher the population, the more likely personality conflicts will exist. The best thing is to not feed the trolls.
by Arbusto on Jun 8, 2009 4:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
How about this for a rule
After you write something re-read it back.
If you say to yourself “wow, I’m an a$$hole” then don’t post it.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve typed something and X’d out of the screen because I realized I would start something unnecessary.
by ak123 on Jun 8, 2009 5:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That's generally good advice
unfortunately, it seems like there are a number of posters who would ignore it, or even worse, think it’s a good thing.
by chitownhawkeye on Jun 8, 2009 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Once again I repeat the simple advice that everyone sees when they sign up for this site.
If you wouldn’t say it to someone face to face in the same room with them, then don’t post it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Jun 8, 2009 8:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is the best fanpost I've read in months
If only more people could stick to the sentiments expoused here by Badger and the people replying.
I, too, have lived and died with the Cubs since I was eight years old. I joined this site because I wanted to interract with people who shared my passion. Lately though, as has been mentioned already, things have really gotten out of hand. I get so sick of people being called “ignorant” and being told that they “don’t know anything about baseball” just because they voice an opinion that another poster doesn’t agree with.
I’m a high school teacher and one of the thingsthat I’m always trying to get across to my kids is that every opinion is worth hearing and nobody should be afraid to share a thought.
And as for those who seem to equate anything critical of the Cubs with disloyalty or “ledgejumping” let me just add; just because you occasionally criticize something doesn’t mean that you don’t still love it.
by bluekoolaide on Jun 8, 2009 9:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
BCB has become more about ideologies than about the actual games themselves
More about debating those ideologies than about learning about the game. One of the joys of baseball is there is always something new to learn about. Let’s take the hours we spend here and learn something or refresh.
"That's what you live for. You live for the opportunity and when that day comes, you better be ready," Soto said. "I tried to make sure that whenever they gave me a chance, I was ready and I knew I had to take advantage of the opportunity."
by Madison Cub Fan on Jun 9, 2009 1:46 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
+1 totally agree SB
Yes it can be painful watching the bullpen lose it, but that shouldn’t spill over into the “real world”. I lived in Lexington, KY for some time and down there, the fans truly do live up to the word “fanatic”. I worked with a man who would call in sick the next day if the Cats lost. He called himself the “Ultimate Fan”. I think that made him lose a lot of credibility as a fan in my mind.
So I’ll follow in your footsteps SB, wear the gear and talk baseball to other fans of the sport. Engage in friendly ribbing with my St. Louis & Cincinnati fan neighbors and enjoy a good game of baseball. While ignoring a lot of the posts I’ve read recently with personal attacks here at BCB but really enjoying the thoughtful ones such as yours.
Go Cubs!
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog. - Mark Twain
by CinciCubsFan on Jun 9, 2009 7:42 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Lest we all forget...
by tootle on Jun 9, 2009 12:08 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Of course, there are those who learn after the first few times. They grow out of sports. And there are others who were born with the wisdom to know that nothing lasts. These are the truly tough among us, the ones who can live without illusion, or without even the hope of illusion. I am not that grown-up or up-to-date. I am a simpler creature, tied to more primitive patterns and cycles. I need to think something lasts forever, and it might as well be that state of being that is a game; it might as well be that, in a green field, in the sun.
Awesome.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. When they play over their heads, and when they play under the gutter. When they win the division, and then get swept in the division series. When they get no-hitters and when they blow no-hitters. And some day, when they go all the way and get those rings. This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jun 9, 2009 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It says 1998 as copywrite but he passed away in the late 1989
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/quotes/quogiam.shtml
This article shows that 1977 as when it was written.
I had that writing on my bulletin board for many years growing up
"That's what you live for. You live for the opportunity and when that day comes, you better be ready," Soto said. "I tried to make sure that whenever they gave me a chance, I was ready and I knew I had to take advantage of the opportunity."
by Madison Cub Fan on Jun 9, 2009 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that is correct....
he wrote it after the Red Sox lost to the Yankees
by tootle on Jun 9, 2009 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bart would have been a legitimate HoF commissioner had he lived longer
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 9, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very well thought out Badger.
Your input is valuable and helpful…as usual.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Jun 9, 2009 9:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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