Cubs have not been the same since the Dodger playoff series
by BLou on Jul 11, 2009 10:44 AM CDT
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PrintLast season the Cubs entered the playoffs bursting with positivity. 97 wins, great pitching, great lineup, mojo... Then it all came crashing horribly down in three games against the Dodgers. The pitching meltdowns, the awful defense, the ineptitude of the lineup. We all sat there in horror as the Cub played not one...not two...but three of their absolute most awful games of the entire season. In fact, the Cubs could not have played more poorly than they did in that Dodger series.
Well, this season has been an extension of the 2008 playoffs. The offense hass been awful and the bullpen a nightmare. The only good thing has been the remarkable consistency of the starting pitching. But teams that waste good starting pitching are doomed to failure. An old edict of baseball is thou shalt not waste good starting pitching. And that is precisely what the Cubs have done all season long.
A lot of you have been waiting and waiting and waiting for this team to go on a 15-5 kind of a run. The presumption remains that we are head and shoulders above the rest of the deeply flawed NL Central and it's only a matter of time before it all comes together. Well, I disagree.
The 2009 season is over. Call me Debbie Downer all you want. But I've been following the Cubs since 1977 and I have never disliked a Cub team or been more disappointed in a Cub team than this one. It is very, very hard to like this current team.
It's over. It's been over. This team will finish the season in the range of 79-83 wins which will translate in 3rd, 4th or 5th place. St. Louis will win this division barring the Reds pulling off a trade for a major bat or the Brewers pulling off a deal for a Roy Halladay type.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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You seem to suggest
“something” happened during the 2008 Playoffs that has carried over to this year.
What’s the connection between those three games and the first 81 games of the 2009 regular season?
"This is an environment of welcoming, and you should just get the hell outta here." --Michael Scott
I don't know
But it is very clear to me that the window of opportunity for winning a World Series closed with that 2008 team. The 2003-2008 chapter of the Cubs is over. It is time to deconstruct and begin a full-scale rebuilding job. Which is going to be extraordinarily painful and long given the ugliness of the current contract situation and the barren nature of the farm system.
$136 million payroll for a .500 style ballclub. Good work Jim.
It pains me to say it
but I completely agree.
Barren nature of the farm system?
The same farm system that has practically allowed the Cubs to keep up with the rest of the division despite all the problems?
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
the problem is the NTC's to practically all our team.
it might not even be possible to trade off our pieces. Hendry has cripples this organization for the foreseeable future.
Ummm...
By this logic, the 2007 Cubs should have crashed and burned. Instead, they won another division title.
Losing the 2008 Dodgers playoff series does not equate to a bad 2009.
This is what you are claiming.
The 2009 Cubs are plagued by a weak offense, (players not performing to their past stats, or having an off year) injuries to key players, inferior middle relief — and now, inconsistent starting pitching.
But all of this has nothing to do with three post-season losses to the Dodgers in 2008.
You can say the window of opportunity is closed, I can agree with that. But — again, 3 playoff losses to the Dodgers are independent of the team’s 2009 performance.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jul 11, 2009 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions
How can you say "nothing"?
I’m not saying I agree with the poster, but to say this season has “nothing” to do with the playoff last year is, I believe, short sighted.
You don’t think Soriano’s confidence took a hit when he basically didn’t show up in the playoffs? You don’t think there is any chance that some players might be thinking something like, “why would we want to go through that again – working so hard to win all those games, just to be embarrassed in the post season”?
Pscyhology is a huge part of this game and what happened in the Dodgers series had to be a test of each player’s mental fortitude. I think some of them have failed that test.
And, how can you prove that?
Explain 2007, then — when the Cubs didn’t show up against Arizona in that divisional series. 2008 went pretty well, you’d have to admit — until the divisional series against the Dodgers.
Using Blue Mike’s own logic, the Cubs should have failed in the 2008 season — they should have never made the playoffs.
If you want to argue that the Cubs have a problem not performing well in the playoffs, there’s a pretty big sample size to argue that, save for the 2003 Divisional Series against Atlanta.
But there’s no way to assert the 2008 Playoffs are responsible for the 2009 Regular Season.
There’s absolutely no cause and effect there. There just isn’t — there are no facts to point to.
Many good players are not having good seasons. That’s about as simple of a description of the 2009 Cubs as you can get. Career years by players help lead teams to championships.
By my observation, there’s not a career year to be found by any 2009 Chicago Cub.
This is the same reasoning that leads this fan base to “curses,” and all the crap that the media loves to repeat over and over and over.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jul 12, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Rec'd
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 12, 2009 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions
+1
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
The 2003-2008 chapter?
Those are two separate chapters.
Gone before 2007 were the towel drills of the saviors, Wood and Prior. And anti-base clogging philosophies, dude.
And ANYONE who thinks this is the most unlikeable Cub team in the last 6 years must have been in a coma for 2004.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 11, 2009 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree this team is very hard to like...
…but there’s absolutely no way this even closely equates with my sheer hatred for the 2004 club. That was a team, on paper, I was believed was “destined” to win the World Series. You never said it, but that’s the only Cubs team I ever had that great a feeling about. And why shouldn’t I have? So much potential, so many great vibes from 2003. We made ourselves a better team than 2003.
And we didn’t even make the playoffs, despite winning one more game. Instead, we crashed and burned. I really don’t like this 2009 team, but it will never match 2004. That’s the king of all screw-ups in this organization.
Major market $120,000,000 plus teams do not rebuild.
Continuing to make this plea makes you look silly. Knock it off.
The Marlins rebuild. The Rays, and the Orioles rebuild. The Yanks, Red Sox, Mets, Cubs… we retool.
"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"
by AndrewJStone on Jul 12, 2009 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Unless the bottom falls out, which I doubt --
The Cubs should be always able to contend, and win. This franchise is moving into a new era. It is now an upper-echelon franchise, 100-years be damned. It should be right there with the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, Angels, Mets — teams with money that might not win a division every year, but will contend.
I won’t throw the Cardinals in the ‘big money’ franchises, but they are in this group.
If there are any terrible Cubs seasons in the next 10 – by that, I mean hopelessly out ot contention by May — Padres, Nationals, Pirates…shame on the new ownership. This should never happen again.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jul 12, 2009 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree the Cubs...
…shouldn’t be in a position to have any putrid teams, they could experience a 2-3 year period of needing to clean up some of these big contracts that aren’t panning out. Unless the new owner wants to keep adding guys (while he is eating dough on contracts) and get the payroll to 150 mil, you could see some less competitive teams for a little bit.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
While I disagree...
…this season is over (too many mediocre teams to ever give up), I do agree that the window for this club has been closing rapidly.
Chances are, there is going to be a significant clean up process if this years club can’t turn it around and the new owner is going to have to eat a lot of dough (which he won’t be real happy about) in any rebuilding process.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
agreed.
they should be selling to the numerous teams still in contention at the deadline. stock up for the future. this is over.
Well gee
I was just starting to get over yesterdays win. I feel terrific now.
"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver
by wrigleyrocker12 on Jul 11, 2009 11:05 AM CDT reply actions
It sucks to say it
but I dont know how you can look at this team and feel there is any chance. I hope everyday will mark the start of something good, but its hard to see this team putting things together. I don’t think I’ve been a fan of a team more frustrating, in any sport, than this team. You look at the lineup and it you tell yourself it could and should be so good, but day after day after day its the same crap.
you don't have to agree with him.
Till the Cubs are mathematically eliminated there’s a chance. This team is playing so far above potential, they could improve incrementally and take first place in a week.
Some people will look at this and give up. Some people don’t.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 11, 2009 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions
Playing so far above potential?????
What the hell are you talking about?
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
i'm pretty certain
he meant “below” expectations.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Jul 11, 2009 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions
Probably
But it was still a blisteringly stupid thing to say.
At some point, you are who you are. Maybe the potential was far overrated.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
For some reason today, I keep thinking about Pokey Reese and Rich Hill
Young players with “potential” whose GMs held on to them just long enough for the rest of the league to find their flaws, and destroy their trade value.
Reese was famously “untouchable” when the Reds wanted to acquire Junior Griffey.
A better puzzle piece for Rich Hill would probably be coming in very handy right now for Jim Hendry – either to plug into this team, or to flip for some help.
How many guys on the current roster are going to be held the same way? We’ve probably already seen it with Fontenot, for example.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Jul 11, 2009 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions
except
it’s not. On paper, this team has a ton of potential they’re not fulfilling.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 11, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions
And a track record of individual production
they’ve failed to reproduce.
"This is an environment of welcoming, and you should just get the hell outta here." --Michael Scott
absolutely.
that’s what makes it so freakin frustrating.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 11, 2009 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Or, maybe they don't
Maybe Soriano is done. Maybe Soto was a flash in the pan. Maybe Bradley had a career year last year
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
you honestly think he is done?
he started the year on fire and then straight dropped. ok he is declining but you cant just honestly think he just completely lost it
I think he has
This has become way more than just a slump. This is a guy who’s just totally lost his focus on what’s at hand and the futility of his performance this season is just incredible.
Of course, I haven’t liked Soriano since he got here. I didn’t like him as a Yankee, Ranger, or National, and thought he had “career year” written all over him in 2006. I thought he was done as soon as we gave him $136 million.
And yeah, the argument is “Without Soriano, we don’t make the playoffs the last two years.” My argument is, without Soriano and with a guy like Carlos Beltran (which the Cubs messed up in 2005), we make it farther than we did the last two years. I was never fond of the gamble and I’m still not convinced.
whups
below potential. Mis-type.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 11, 2009 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
as in I wish they were?
you bet.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 11, 2009 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions
keep in mind
that there’s little to support the suggestion that this is related to 2008, too. It’s a very different team.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 11, 2009 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions
You're right it is. Because this team sucks.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jul 11, 2009 12:00 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
any chance some of the first half downs
is related to ARam being out 50 games? Lets wait more than a week of his return to see where we are.
Just my 2 cents
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Absolutely not
A good team would’ve found ways to win without Ramirez. The Dodgers did without Manny, No way should one guy have to be the savior of a baseball team.
I don’t care if he hits .200 the rest of the season. I think he came back too soon and don’t expect him to tear the cover off the ball, though he’s been slapping base hits around rather well so far. The team wasn’t even that good when he was in the lineup.
I never had a good feeling about this team from the start. I still would LOVE for them to surprise me later this year. I just can’t see it happening…
true
but it is also easier to replace an OF than a 3B.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
The Dodgers are the best balanced team in the NL
- at least, right now. Who knew that Pierre would revert back to 2003 form? Randy Wolf? He was on the scrap heap. They are getting great production from just about all positions (except catcher) and their starters are better than expected.
Good breaks, good seasons from key players…..that helps make a winner. The Cubs have had this happen the past two years.
However, the Dodgers haven’t advanced past the NLCS. We’ll see how LA does this fall.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jul 12, 2009 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions
These men are professionals
The carryover effect should be minimal at that point in the season. The team has been bitten with the injury bug and a lack of consistent reliable production up and down the lineup.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
All the pieces to the puzzle fit last year.
All the pieces are on the floor right now. This falls on the players and Lou now. We can bitch and moan about the players we let go and signed, well that crap is over. The players and Lou need to step up, if not, well they all can go over to BLou’s for hamburgers and hotdogs on the grill.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
I'm not a huge fan of Lou
I’ll still ask this question. Is it Lou Piniella’s fault? They got a new hitting coach and Soriano still flails away from pitches. Milton Bradley is still having problems with his swing from the left side. I realize people want a scapegoat, but Lou Piniella is not the right scapegoat here. My biggest concern is that Hendry will try to make this all Piniella’s fault. It’s not as if Piniella has helped his cause this season when he referred to Bradley as a piece of excrement and threw his hitting coach and players under the bus after Wednesday’s game. This is a player problem. If they quit on Dusty, they’ll quit on Lou. It’s as simple as that.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
I think the problem isn't the players quitting on Lou.
I think Lou has quit on his players. That’s a damning indictment.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
If you're right.
Lou needs to get fired. It’s just as important for a manager to have his head in it as much as the players. If he’s quitting on them, that’s going to impact the entire team.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Absolutely true.
We’ll see where the team stands after the next three games. It might be time to do something.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Lou might have lost his fastball this year.
He looks tired.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jul 12, 2009 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions
I can't discount what you are saying...
…and although I think Lou has been one of the best managers in the game the last 20 years, there are signs he may be tiring of the day to day grind.
I must say I was impressed by his creativity in putting Marshall in LF so he could bring him back in.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/215864-time-is-up-piniella-must-go
might be, might not be
wells4roty
by jesus christos on Jul 11, 2009 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Two comments, BLou...
First, I must admit that this year’s team isn’t nearly as loveable as last year’s team. Not because of their record, but because of the seemingly lackluster and lifeless feel the games have to them. It seems as if they are going through the motions right now, and as a fan that’s something that’s very tough to swallow.
That being said, I can’t help it that I’m hoping for a great second half of the season. I see so many all-star caliber players on this roster, it just seems unbelievable to me that the second half of the season will be as tough as the first half. I don’t think, at 4.5 games out, that it’s reasonable to start talking about “rebuilding” the franchise. Yes, we have some backloaded contracts, but these contracts belong to players who are capable of carrying this team to victory. So I hope you understand why I must disagree with your assessment that the season is “over, and has been for 6 weeks”. It’s just not reasonable to say that in my mind.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Jul 11, 2009 11:23 AM CDT reply actions
What?
seemingly lackluster and lifeless
I guess Zambranos & Bradleys hissy-fit Gatorade-clubbing explosions in the dugouts are lackluster & lifeless?
I put the blame (on this mundane season) on the intangible ‘team chemistry’ factor and absolutely clueless offseason moves of Hendry that effectively destroyed last years team. I see absoutely no relationship between the Dodgers series and this teams performance this year whatsoever. If anyone should be fired, start with him first.
could not agree anymore
there’s 78 games left. 3.5 games back. season over? not even close. and this team was built to win now. sure they haven’t performed, but they have the second half to get back on track.
I don't know how
you could dislike this team more than the 04 team. This team is underachieving more, but likability wise I don’t think it’s close. No team is very likable when they are losing, but the 04 team was the worst collection of guys I’ve ever seen wear a Cubs uniform.
DEJESUS!!!
Agreed.
Those guys were more talented, I think, than this year’s team. They had a playoff spot in their pocket and blew it.
This year’s team is flawed, but as tomas says, underachieving. The latter can be dealt with.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Bottom Line
BLou is most likely right on the $$ with this post…….although I hope he isn’t. Jim Hendry has screwed this franchise for at least two more seasons with the horrible contracts handed out to quite possibly the worst outfield trio to step on a major league field this decade. Some keep waiting for these so called "all star caliber players " to start playing……it just ain’t gonna happen. My question is…..what all stars? Soriano? He WAS an all star player but his days as a useful player are behind him. Five more years of an escalating contract that will go down as one of the worst deals in MLB history. It’s easy to see why every other club that’s had him couldn’t wait to dump his sorry ass. We’re better off if he does a Kevin Brown and gets paid to sit at home……he’s an utterly useless player and will continue to decline. Bradley? We signed a guy to help from the left side of the plate who’s career numbers suggest he’s far better from the right side. Not to mention he’s a clubhouse cancer……..no one has ever wanted to keep this guy around no matter where he’s been. Fukudome? What has he ever done to show all star ability?
As for rebuilding………..how? I said before….if we DFA’d our whole outfield today not one club would take any of them. They are all untradeable. Truth be told, trading Ramirez (our only all star player) or Zambrano or even Marmol would be the only way to begin a rebuild that is sadly needed here. IMO…..this team will flounder the rest of the year, new ownership will come in and a housecleaning will happen this offseason
by plenz on Jul 11, 2009 11:35 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
The enter / return key. Use it.
That hurt my head.
Five more years of an escalating contract that will go down as one of the worst deals in MLB history.
Why do we keep seeing this claim as if the last two seasons didn’t happen? Was he not an all star and major contributor to two of the best season long efforts we’ve seen in our lives as cubs fans? They guy has been bad for the last couple of months, sure… but that’s about what, 1/20th of his time with the team. Labeling him one of the worst deals in MLB history at this point is a little preemptive.
"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"
by AndrewJStone on Jul 12, 2009 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions
The buyer/seller decision comes around July 19
If this team has even a small chance of making the playoffs (and Baseball Prospectus has their odds this morning at 1 in 8), they have to show some sort of life in the next seven games.
If they are 44-47 after the Nationals series… that’s pretty much the lowest they can be and still have a marginal chance. It means that they either lost the Cardinals series, or lost the Nationals series, or split both of them.
If they lose 3 of 4 to the Cardinals, and can only go 2-2 at Nationals Park, the smart play is to be sellers and try and unload in areas where you have depth but not a lot of quality: CF/RF/2B and anything salvageable from the bullpen. I don’t think you can trade Lee without eating a lot of his 2010 salary, as he’s going to want a contract extension from the new team in exchange for waiving his no-trade rights.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
What would we have to give?
Our biggest disappointments happen to be the most immovable, either b/c of NTCs or sheer salary. The bloom has come off of Fontenots rose,. so whos going to give anything of value for him?
Similarly, if we dont make the playoffs, I think it would be unwise to sell off too many parts; the team is still incredibly talented, and this year could very well be an aberration.
If we do end up as sellers, I think Harden should be the first one to go; he just been incredibly inefficient this year, and when coupled with his injury history, that doesnt seem like a recipe for sustained success.
So you cant deal Soriano, Bradley, Ramirez (not that youd want to), Lee, Dempster etc b/c of their contracts, and you’d be foolish to deal Soto and I think Lilly has earned a contract extension.
So whats left are spare parts like Theriot, Fontenot, Hill as I wouldnt imagine Marmol or Guzman would be dealt given our already weak pen.
Even if the Cubs are forced to sell, they dont have a whole lot to put out there
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
*Guzman wouldnt*
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
You're right - not a lot, but some pieces
Sadly, Harden was the obvious trade piece, and he’s not really that movable now. But remember that the teams who are buyers are supposedly good teams, so even pieces might work.
The pieces on the 25-man whom I think have some value to a contending team are:
- Gregg (if he does not have a NTC, I can’t remember)
- Guzman
- Fontenot (strictly as a LH bench bat and one day a week starter)
- Johnson (Fuld is ready for the #5 OF, PR, defensive replacement role)
- Hoffpauir (but not if I can trade Johnson instead)
I think they could find a buyer for Fukodome or Bradley, but they’d have to eat too much contract to make it worth their while. And if the Angels or Giants had interest in Lee, I think he’d waive the NTC if he could get a contract extension.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Jul 11, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions
I dont think theyd deal Guzman
not with the progress he’s shown and finally being healthy; I think youre correct on Gregg, Johnson, Hoffpauir and presumably Fox, being the most likely to go
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
So they split with the Cardinals...
And it’s likely that a split at Nationals Park will keep them 3.5 out with 71 to go. Plus they really should be able to take 3 of 4 from the Nationals with their 1-4 starters, so that probably puts the 2.5 out.
So, I think that they’re going to try to be buyers, but it’s not clear that they have the right pieces to bring in some help.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Jul 13, 2009 2:22 AM CDT up reply actions
This is a very unlikeable team......it reminds me of the 2004 team in a sense
….It almost seems as if Bradley’s attitude and lack of performance has infected this team. I know he is only one player but bad mojo is bad mojo. I really think that they lost leaders in Wood and DeRo too.
The one thing I will never understand is why Hendry meddled SO much with a 97 win team. It boggles the mind.
All that being said this season is FAR from over. This division is terrible and the Cubs have the talent to win the division. With Soto and Demp going down it’s going to be tough, especially if Harden doesn’t improve. If they just start to hit with some consistency, which they should, it will solve so many problems.
Some will say that "team leaders" don't matter.
I’m one who thinks they do. The 2004 team lost leaders, too, in Damian Miller and Eric Karros. It DOES matter.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It absolutely matters
Real life on the field baseball is not stratomatic or rotisserie. Anybody with a clue about organizational science and how high-performing business groups realizes that.
The problem is when a team either overemphasizes it to a point where they keep a guy who has no other value BESIDES leadership, or when they get rid of all the leaders at once because every move is incrementally correct.
I suspect that some Cubs teams in the past had done the former. I think this team did the latter.
The 2004 team… that was a tough one, because Eric Karros just couldn’t stay on the 25-man roster any more. But it is clear that this team needs a guy like Karros on the bench.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Jul 11, 2009 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
It matters more when theyre star players
Like Wood or DeRosa. Im not sure how much of a loss Karros or Miller where as they werent terribly great players that point.
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
They have not been the same team...
because they’re NOT the same team. Hendry felt the need to make drastic changes to a 97 win team, and look where it got him.
To be accurate... Hendry's sin
wasn’t making changes. The problem is what changes he made. It seems every move he made has backfired: Bradley, Miles, DeRosa, Marquis…
One can question the motivation for the tinkering (Lou’s left-handed fascination), but it would be harder to complain if the moves had worked… even a little bit.
"This is an environment of welcoming, and you should just get the hell outta here." --Michael Scott
To be fair
The Marquis move didn’t backfire. We never would have gotten Wells up with Marquis taking up roster space. Getting Joey Gathright and Aaron Miles in the offseason turned out to be pretty useless. It’s hard to call getting rid of Rich Hill and Felix Pie bad moves right now. Letting a certain player become a Brewer, however, is a bad move in hindsight.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
I disagree
Im not the expert on the minors around here, but I dont think Magehee was a lauded prospect around the league.
Marquis was all you could hope for in a no 5 starter last year, and I think we should feel fortunate that Wells has had the early success he’s had, but he’s not guaranteed to continue that throughout the summer, at least Marquis has a track record, unremarkable as it might be
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
McGehee had a MILB OPS of around .750 and his defensive is terrible
Since June 24 he is hitting .288. Take out the game against the Cubs where he went 3-4 and 4-5 and he is hitting .186. He has 6 errors on the season.
He is not a big deal to have let go.
by IllinoisCubs on Jul 11, 2009 7:02 PM CDT up reply actions
agree
I don’t care at all about the loss of Marquis, despite his great season. He is bound to screw up in the 2nd half.
You are certainly correct.
I have a hard time connecting this year’s struggles to one playoff series with as much turnover as we’ve had.
Personally, I’d blame Hendry AND Lou. Lou’s incessant cryptic comments blaming a lack of LH bats for the playoff loss led to the Cubs blowup.
This season IS over. -BLou 6/30/09
Im afraid Im gonna have to agree
This is reminiscent of 2004, so I wonder who this years Victor Diaz/Latroy Hawkins will be, dashing our hopes at the last second.
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Very well said BLou...
I sadly agree with everything you said. In my opinion, the sweep hurt Piniella more than the players.
Here’s another thing I don’t understand. How can a manager get so much credit for winning back to back divisions, but not held responsible when his team goes 0 for the playoffs?
Because managers get too much credit
when players do well, but when players don’t do well, people focus on the PLAY, not the management behind it.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 11, 2009 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Realistic
This post is realistic; it’s matter of fact. By the 1/3rd mark in the season you should see a team that is competing real well in the division or one that has recently had a solid win streak, like a 10 of 15 win streak. It is ridiculous to squelch another fan’s hope that things will somehow turnaround, but that hope isn’t really something you would want to bet on. You can see the losing process as it unfolds even if you hope for a turnaround. From inside the franchise it means the job is harder when the team isn’t sitting pretty and hasn’t had that solid win streak by or at the 1/3rd mark. So, witnessing the team giving up before the game is over doesn’t bode well.
Being in a weak division doesn’t mean the teams within can’t compete or aren’t better. The Dodgers won a weak division last year. An idea of what it took includes being in a division on 7/11 that had no team playing .500 ball with the Dodgers in 2nd place only 1 game out. The Cubs currently being 4.5 games out. It also took a trade for M. Ramirez at the trade deadline when the team was smack at .500 and 2 games out. There isn’t going to be an impact player move for the Cubs; no realistic hope. And the Dodgers were able to win the division with 84 wins. This year’s NL Central winner will probably have to win more than 84 games.
The Cubs have a huge, huge hill to climb and we are seeing tell-tale signs that they aren’t up to it.
Sad to say, I agree with you completely
Very well thought out and hard for even the most optimistic to dispute.
I might feel differently if I thought Hendry could swing a difference making trade but, as you say, that simply isn’t going to happen due to the hole he’s dug for himself.
I no longer have any expectations for this team. I’d love to see them at least start exploring trading some veterans and beginning (yet another) rebuilding process.
by bluekoolaide on Jul 11, 2009 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions
i don't know
it won’t be much more than 84 wins to take this division. This team is embarrassing to watch right now but getting to the playoffs is possible, very possible. Once you get into the playoffs anything can happen and we certainly have the pitching to do something in the playoffs. I know the team is frustrating but damn have some faith….its not even the all-star break yet. no need to continuously talk about how this team is playing like shit. This team honestly can’t get much worse. sure its possible but really it can’t get much worse than we are now.
like beating the Division leader
5-2?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 11, 2009 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't care...
I’ll still watch the games and root for the CUBS and cheer and be happy when they win and disappointed when they lose. I’ll cheer them when they finish last and if/when they win it all and all the other inevitable places in between.
I like the Chicago Cubs. This franchise is like one of my children. It doesn’t matter how awful they perform or how disappointed they make me, I like them anyway.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 11, 2009 2:41 PM CDT reply actions 9 recs
I know what you mean
I couldn’t stop loving the Cubs if I tried-at this point they’re encoded in my DNA.
I get angry, frustrated, etc., but I always come back and I always will. Sometimes though I can’t tell if that makes me a great. diehard fan or an insane person. Not that it matters-when it comes to the Cubs, my heart always overcomes my head.
by bluekoolaide on Jul 11, 2009 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions
It's not that nobody likes this team.
You didn’t imply that, just saying. I do a lot of pissing and moaning about how atrocious this team has been this season, and will usually call on specific players as part of the blame more than anything.
Yet when they lost 96 in 2006 and I found myself watching every game that season, or watching the end of the 2004 season despite knowing what a colossal failure that was, I realized that no matter how unlikeable or how bad a team can be, I come back for the name on the front of the jersey.
I get so frustrated with these guys, but for good reason. It’s because I love ‘em so greatly, and just hate seeing them fail. This team has been my lifestyle the past fourteen years and I would love another fourteen of excellent memories. Great post, rec’d.
BLou not a bad rant......but
Injuries have killed this team more than anything this season so far. We lost ARam for 50 games alone. Not to mention MB, Lee, Soto, Demp, shall I continue?
Hendry has a history of making trades to at leasdt try and improve. I refuse to call this season over until I see what he does. I do not see anyone in this division (not named the Cubs) who possibly will be part of a big name being moved. I believe this is why the Cubs are trying to work Fox into each game, so they can showcase him for the AL and a team in need of a bat.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I disagree
A repeated inability to get a hit with runners in scoring position and a terrible bullpen have killed the Cubs more than anything
true
but how often has the batter been Blanco instead of ARam (for example) due to the injuries?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Not nearly as often
as Bradley, Soriano or Fontenot have failed to come through with a runner in scoring position or nearly as often as Heilman has been atrocious or Marmol has walked batter after batter
true, but
look at all the games where we have scored limited amounts of runs. Ramirez would not have magically helped put huge numbers on the scoreboard.
Thanks everyone...
for pulling the plug on this season. You really put the flaws and unlikability of this team in perspective for me. Now I can spend my summer following the Chicago Red Stars and staining my deck. Sure the Cubs are only a few games out of first place but why wait to take a dump all over the season? Give up as soon as you can. That’s what I always say.
by Born Again Cubs Fan on Jul 11, 2009 5:08 PM CDT reply actions
Quitting!
if it’s good enough for Sarah Palin, it’s good enough for us!
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 11, 2009 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Right on! If Sarah followed the Cubs...
she’s quit on them and say, "Hey, I can see sixth place from my house!
"I showed him the cheese then punched him out with the yakker." -- Eck
but unlike me
she would look like the librarian right out of a Cinamax soft core movie, I would still be ugly
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
This Thread seems to me a very un-cub fan like endeavor.
This May be the most disturbing post/thread I’ve encountered in my relatively brief participation (since May) in this community.
While the cubs haven’t endeared themselves to us fans so far in 2009, who can say what is around the corner.
Who can predict what injuries/recoveries we’ll experience, or who will/will/not step forward as a leader in the club house and carry the team.
Who knows what injuries or over problems will overtake the Cardinals, Brewers, Reds or Astros?
So thats what being a fan is all about, isnt it?
Blou may be right that in the end the Cubs will fail. There is however a chance that they’ll hang in for a while and make the pennant race it interesting.
I may be discouraged, I am not ready to “pull a Palin!”
by CubfaninRaleigh(869milestoWrigley) on Jul 11, 2009 8:15 PM CDT reply actions
i personally think its because theyre not wearing the goofy looking blue and red hats they wore during the regular 2008 season
they began wearing the solid blues in the postseason and continue to wear them
BRING BACK THE GOOFY HATS
wells4roty
Here's the truth about that.
The red/blue hats were worn only on the road, and had been since the mid 1980’s. They did wear the red & blue caps for the one road game they played in the NLDS, as shown here:
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The season has been frustrating/disappointing so far...
…but for me I was kind of surprised that experts were picking this team to win mid-90s.
It’s a decent team with some high risk factors, but with Lee having such a fine season I would then have expected this offense to perform welland 90 wins to be within reach. Unfortunately the Cubs have had too many injuries to key players and a poor bench. I also think MB was a very risky signing that really wasn’t worth it at the time given the alternatives.
In any event, this team struggled well before the Dodger series last year, last part of August and through September their offense was suspect. It’s been and unlucky year for the Cubs and some poor roster decisions, but I don’t feel disappointment the way that I did with other Cubs teams that choked. This team just hasn’t gotten going to qualify as a huge disappointment or choke.
cubs 09
on paper this team can easily win this division.but thats not how it works.you have to hit and pitch on a regular basis to win games. between injuries and all the underacheivers on this team that equals out to 42-42 so far.i believe we are very lucky to be at 500 the way this team has played. i just cant seem to get excited about this team.
And the point about being "the same" is .. what? This team ain't done yet ..
Of course the team hasn’t been the same since last year! What else is more obvious?
There’s a few less guys with names like Edmonds and Wood and others with names like Gregg and Bradley on the roster front. Our position players have been decimated with injuries unlike last year in which, with some exceptions, they were able to escape. There’s the inevitable need to rebuild the bench with utility guys who its hoped can hit and play well after the last bunch got released .. and how do you replace someone like a DeRosa? The doors to the bullpen and the rotation have about rotated off the hinges ..
And I say, so?
Does championship baseball always depend upon the predictable, the supposedly “good on paper” quantifying we fans like to think we’ve got a bead on? If I had a dollar for every “sure thing” I had in life that didn’t go the way I thought it might, it would make the Powerball look like lunch money. As has been said, the 2003 team was a surprise. I think this one, in the end, still has more than enough to get a GOOD one to us this fall.
The horses are there .. they just need to keep pulling together as a team to move the chariot out. For any one of a dozen reasons, the synch has been maddeningly slow in coming .. But it CAN and I think it WILL yet .. and God alone knows where it will lead.
The old tired adage you whisper in your kids’ ears before he or she go to bat in Little League still means something .. “It’s not how big you are. It’s how big you play.” That works in the Major Leagues also .. it means that routine long fly balls get caught, RISP get hammered home whatever way it can be done, and pitches break when they should. It means also that the team has to become a TEAM. From what Marshall said in that Fox interview in which he mentioned how player attitude a couple weeks ago seemed down, I’d say that this more than anything else is the issue for the Cubs. Even with the injuries and failure to play to potential, there’s always something in that intangible clubhouse gel that still needs to finally congeal.
If the Cubs ever needed to focus and execute, that has to arise.For the Cubs to pull off a return to the post season, the measure of how well they’re going to do has been seen the past week. It’s admittedly not that encouraging .. more maddeningly frustrating because we all know that the pieces are there. But the Cubs are going to have to step up and play bigger than they are .. and today would be the best day in the season for us to see it again.
I ain’t giving up on the Cubs and I’m gonna keep bleeding Cubbie blue .. there’s a lot of ball to play and more than enough room for heroes all the way around to dance in our living rooms on HD (thanks, Donna the Buffalo).
GO CUBS! You ain’t the same and that’s fine with me. Find the way and bring it home!
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we will go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
by cubnational on Jul 12, 2009 7:33 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Seriously though...
… I don’t understand you guys. I really don’t. You’ve got a couple of players putting up numbers so monumentally below their career averages that they’re either going to go through a correction soon or they imploded simultaneously. Which seems more likely? AND, despite significant injury problems (particularly playing without ARam for much of the first half) you’re still only a week-long winning streak out of first place. Yet you’re acting like your families should be hiding knives and pill bottles. If you were in the same division as the Dodgers I could understand it, but you’re not. It looks likely that this division is going to go down to the last week, and yeah, it’s probably likely that one of the teams currently in contention is going to suffer a 10 game losing streak and take themselves out of the race. Until that happens (and it may happen to someone else), why don’t you try to enjoy yourselves a little bit?
There’s no crying in baseball.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Jul 12, 2009 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions
You know it's bad when
a Brewers fan is talking Cubs fans in off the ledge.
Thank you for this timely dose of rationality in a decidedly emotional debate, sir.
"You have to have short-term memory, no matter who you are in this game. There's always tomorrow." ~Derrek Lee
LSA
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 12, 2009 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree
still a ton of games left, the nl central sucks, the nl east/west possible wild card teams are going to keep splitting wins and losses. If we can somehow get to the point where we are playing some decent consistent baseball, we have a shot at grabbing the wild card. Although I find it more likely that we would have a higher chance of getting to the playoffs by winning the division than the wild card.
This post is a joke. To call this season over in this division with
this team is the height of absurdity. Does this Cardinal team look that strong to anyone besides Blou? What about the Brewers? See any world beaters there? What happens if the Cubs sweep the DH today? Is the Cardinals season over at that point? Let’s at least wait to the end of the month to make any predictions about how this season will play out, After 2007, we should know better than to declare this team dead. When ARam gets his timing back, let’s see how well this offense really playing. I suspect this division will remain competitive until the end of the season. Even if the Brewers pick up a starting pitcher, I don’t see any of these teams running away with anything. It ain’t over till we say it’s over.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jul 12, 2009 10:38 AM CDT reply actions
Somehow BLou
forgot to blame steroids
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
It's implied.
Manny + Steroids + Dodgers = Cubs Swept In NLDS
Also, Soto obviously stopped using them just before the playoffs. Probably right after the Sept. 18 comeback, just to avoid arousing any suspicion. So steroids really beat us two ways there. Not to mention he was probably totally high during the NLDS.
"Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true." ~Demosthenes
By the Numbers
As I type this the Cubs are 2.5 games behind the dreaded Redbirds and tied in the loss column. Like Drew says, they’re mathematically in it and that is a reason not to get discouraged.
However the club’s offensive numbers are discouraging. 15th in the leauge in BA, 13th in OBP and OPS, 10th in SLG, 11th in BB. It’s hard for me to see them return to the offensive form that paced the league last year.
I suppose one could argue that the Cubs don’t need to be first in all those categories, and if they just improved to median levels that would be enough to leapfrog St. Louis and Milwaukee. Keeping my fingers crossed….
Your "haven't been the same since the playoffs" may have merit
but it sure as heck ain’t the 2008 playoffs. Keep in mind this team has had a ton of injuries but in my opinion this team has not been the same “playoff” team since the Bartman game. They have gone 0-8 in playoff games since that one
is there
a single player on the Cubs who was on that 2003 team? Zambrano is it, as far as I know. A completely different team. So this concept makes no sense.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 12, 2009 8:52 PM CDT up reply actions
So
3-4 from the Brewers, and a split with the Cardinals. Not bad for a team that is allegedly “out of it”.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
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