Short term memory=Short term gain
The Sunday game against Washington marked season highs for the offense. The thing that struck me as remarkable was the willingness of the hitters to go with the pitches. Even Brenly noted the effectiveness of players like Soriano. Well, where is that approach now? Sori is missing pitches by 3 feet again and even Lee is missing the outside pitch.
Jake Fox is wasting away on the bench of a team that desperately needs hitting. And guess what Lou, he can be the left hand batter you long for. He hits right handed pitchers at a .344 pace. Hill is hitting .202 against them. By the way, Lou, have you noticed how much Hill has stepped it up lately? After going .048 in June, he is .191 in July. Start Fox behind the plate. If he screws up, we'll see it quickly enough. Lou underestimated his defense at 3B. Maybe the same thing is happening at catcher.
Who told Jim Hendry that Baker resembled DeRosa? Baker serves no purpose on this team. We are better served by bringing back Scales or even Fuld. Finally, the need for bats outside the roster seems foolish while we sit Fox and Hoffpaiur.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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131 comments
Comments
Jake Fox has no business behind the plate
A lot of people on this board think defense is optional. It’s not. Catcher is the most important defensive position on the ballfield. You’ve got to be able to work effectively with pitchers, handle the signals from the dugout, block the plate, throw out runners. Koyie Hill is an adept catcher while Jake Fox is a DH.
Cubs will win 79 to 83 games. Season has been over for weeks. St. Louis will eventually run away with this division. And you can print it. BLou (7/21/09)
by BLou on Jul 22, 2009 10:23 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
In this case
I agree with Blou, no way you want to put Jake Fox in a tied game, catching what would be a whole list of relievers. No way you want someone with such limited experience both with the position and the pitchers, catching in that situation.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
by StevenABQ on Jul 22, 2009 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, Tharr, but Blou is right.
Fox can cost the team more than what he can provide offensively if you put him in as the regular catcher. The real problem is the lack of another backup catcher. The backup catcher has to remain on the bench for the most part and that is what’s happening to Fox right now. Not a good spot for such a bat like Fox’s to be in.
by Fraggin Judge on Jul 22, 2009 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Problem is
what good is a backup catcher if you never use him? Right now we are overusing Hill and need to give him a break, especially in a day game after a night game. Could be worse, Bako could be the backup.
A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.
by copes006 on Jul 22, 2009 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
im sure an overworked hill
is more effectived than fox behind the plate
wells4roty
by jesus christos on Jul 22, 2009 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Defensively there is no question
that an overworked Hill is better than Fox. Fox failed as a catcher in the minors, why do some think he will suddenly be better now?
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Jul 23, 2009 8:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was not suggesting
Fox become the regular catcher. However, Lou has essentially frozen him to the bench by keeping him as THE backup catcher. That makes two negatives, Hill as a starter and Fox as a non-player. And two negatives do not make a positive in this case. My final argument is the total misconception of Fox as a 3rd baseman defensively. Lou was totally wrong about his abilities there. Let’s just try him out for a few games. At least put him in in a blowout game for some innings. Why wasn’t he used in late innings in the 11-3 Washington game or 1-10 Phil game?
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'd like to see a backup catcher soon to, but...
to get one we would either have to trade a prospect for a two/three week fill-in, or call up a guy from the minors who isn’t ready yet. either would require a roster move, sending down someone and bringing us closer to the 40-man roster limit.
hopefully hendry is putting together a deal for a guy who can actually get the job done for little in return. until that point, keep chugging along, and hope soto is ready soon.
by tim815 on Jul 22, 2009 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
dumb idea
Putting Fox in during a blowout is a bad idea. If he gets hurt, who catches then?
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Jul 23, 2009 8:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wells or Marmol
I’d like to see Fox START a game, and have Hill ready in case Fox blows.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 23, 2009 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It could be too late by then
Also, I doubt Lou is serious when he calls Wells an emergency backup and Marmol has already said there’s no way he’s catching (and rightly so). Lou mentioned Reed Johnson – IMO that’s the emergency catcher right there. But really, Jim Hendry is the one who needs to provide enough real catchers so this isn’t an issue.
"Who's Bob Brenly? The guy that used to be the manager for Arizona?" ~ Alfonso Guilleard Soriano
by JohnM on Jul 23, 2009 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is no way Wells or Marmol ever catch
even if they should volunteer.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Jul 24, 2009 8:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that makes more sense
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Jul 24, 2009 8:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i have no problem
using him in a blowout
wells4roty
by jesus christos on Jul 23, 2009 9:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the cubs need to bring up a legit backup catcher
Fox would be better off filling in for Aram and Soriano. He could also play in right for Bradley on occasion against right hand pitchers. He should be nowhere near a middle fielders position.
by Notsnud on Jul 23, 2009 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who told Jim Hendry that Baker resembled DeRosa?
What’s with the Baker hate? I’ve seen more negative posts about Baker than I ever thought a backup second baseman not named Aaron Miles would ever deserve.
It seems like fans like you are the ones who seem to think he’s supposed to “replace” his holiness. Realistically, Baker is a backup plan for Fontenot’s continued struggles – he’d be a great platoon partner if he can’t put anything together. He plays solid defense, is cheap, and under team control for the foreseeable future.
Of course he doesn’t ride to the field on a unicorn and cure cancer with his surly good looks like Derosa – but those are some large sandals to fill.
by Wreckard on Jul 22, 2009 11:17 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Solid defense?
Yeah. Like last Saturday when he took so long throwing a routine three-hopper hit right at him to first base that it became a single.
Solid.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 22, 2009 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes we should clearly judge him on one play.
That’s an excellent way to evaluate players. I’m not sure why I bothered looking up his league-average range factor at 2nd base when I could have just asked you if he’d ever made a single mistake in the field, which would be unforgivable.
Though here I’m trying to talk defensive evaluation with someone who thinks that Fox has proven himself to be a useful third baseman.
by Wreckard on Jul 22, 2009 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK
Then evaluate Fox’s defense at 3B. Contrary to your belief that he’s a stiff at there, we found out too late that he was well qualified to start there in Ramirez’s absence.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've already shared my thoughts on Fox's defense.
I thought he looked terrible out there. What’s difficult in a case like Fox’s is that there isn’t enough data to form a complete picture using metrics – the sample size is simply too small. So as fans, we have to work from our own observations, using a very small amount of data (even smaller when you’re watching on TV, since you can’t watch what the guy is doing away from the ball).
In those cases, it’s absolutely necessary to defer to the experts – in this case, his coaching staff, who get to see him field hundreds or thousands of balls per week. They obviously don’t have any confidence in him as anything more than an emergency player at those positions.
by Wreckard on Jul 22, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The facts are
that Lou changed his mind. Too late, but he changed his mind. Just prior to Ramirez return Fox was the regular at 3B because he earned the position. experts said Pie and patterson were sure bets. Experts continue to parade Heilman out there time after time. Experts gave us Neifi Perez. Experts gave us this economy. Sometimes the experts are wrong.
All I’m saying is give Fox some starts at C. Or, at least, play him in some blowouts. If he isn’t allowed that then bring up Robinson or Castillo. The approach we’re taking is poor;y conceived. Fix it and move on.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Experts are wrong sometimes, therefore experts are wrong about Fox"
That’s so dumb I literally don’t know where to start.
We have no idea if Lou changed his mind; the fact is that there’s an equation at work here – runs lost to bad defense vs runs gained by offense. Fontenot’s (and Miles’ and Freel’s) atrocious offense in June tipped the balance of that equation in Fox’s favor.
You never answered my question: Why can’t Lou and his staff evaluate Fox’s defense in practice? Why on earth do they have to put him in a game in order to find out whether he can do it?
by Wreckard on Jul 22, 2009 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You want dumb.
Experts must always be correct! You admit the equation at 3B caused his insertion into the lineup. I agree. Now I claim the equation shows he should be considered at catcher. it’s really that simple. Lou has taken a valuable bat off the field with his decision to play Hill every inning and keep Fox on the bench just in case. that is a bad decision in my opinion.
As for their evaluation, could it be suspect? These are the same guys who were certain he’d be a butcher at 3B. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is a butcher at third.
I didn’t say experts are always correct. The difference between me and you is that I know when to defer to them.
by Wreckard on Jul 22, 2009 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you're claiming
to be an expert on experts. That would almost seem pompous. But then I’m not claiming to be an expert on pompous.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Deferring to experts makes me an expert on experts?
I will say this: you and I have one thing in common. Neither one of us has any idea what you’re talking about.
by Wreckard on Jul 22, 2009 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now it seems
you admit your Achilles heels. Firstly, you are unable to understand logic. Secondly, you assume I am as incapable as you.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking
the same thing.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
Now I claim the equation shows he should be considered at catcher.
You’re vastly underestimating the value of defense at catcher. It influences the game far more than poor defense at third base. I know you hate experts, but the fact is that in baseball nearly every team is extremely willing to trot out an extremely weak hitter at the position because they aren’t willing to sacrifice defense there.
by Wreckard on Jul 22, 2009 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You seem very willing
to try to put words in my mouth that I never uttered. I love to listen to experts. However, I am willing to question their decisions when I believe them incorrect. And yes, i do understand the value of defense at catcher. But you and others are willing to write off Fox’s defense at that position and I want to see him under game conditions. The world will not end if Fox is put into a blowout to see his actual skills. Why do you resist that?
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love to listen to experts. However, I am willing to question their decisions when I believe them incorrect.
To paraphrase, experts are great so long as I agree with them.
When an expert who has more knowledge about a specific situation makes a decision I disagree with, I tend to assume they’re doing so not out of ignorance but rather because they know something I don’t.
by Wreckard on Jul 22, 2009 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There you go again
Trying to spin my words do little to change the facts. And you ignore the truth that experts often disagree. Is there global warming? Is the economy turned around? What will be the unemployment rate in 6 months? Will Pie and Patterson be stars? Will Fox be a butcher at 3B?
I always assume others know things I do not. It is not the facts as much as the conclusion that bothers me. I respect your passivity. That is your choice. I prefer being more proactive.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you ignore the truth that experts often disagree. Is there global warming? Is the economy turned around? What will be the unemployment rate in 6 months? Will Pie and Patterson be stars? Will Fox be a butcher at 3B?
Your examples are silly and irrelevant. Experts disagree on most of those things because they are difficult or impossible to project or predict. I can’t test the economy by setting one up in a simulated situation and see if it succeeds – the economy is far too complex for that. Hitting is similar – it’s difficult to project hitting at the major league level with absolute certainty.
Defensive skill is nothing like any of those things. It’s easy to test and simulate – Lou can have Fox catch in practice. It’s just that simple. It doesn’t have to happen in a game to know if it’s a good idea.
by Wreckard on Jul 22, 2009 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't Lou
the one that said Fox was incapable of playing 3B? Fox was a catcher in college. He played catcher this year in Iowa. Obviously he was good enough there. yet you want me to believe he is incapable of playing any innings under any conditions in the majors. I ain’t buying it.
You can buy the Lou opinion but frankly, I want to see jake at catcher. And please, don’t presume you know what experts are believable and which aren’t. Your arrogance is over the top.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn’t Lou the one that said Fox was incapable of playing 3B?
No, he didn’t. It’s not Lou’s job to make these kinds of evaluations. It’s also highly debatable that Fox has disproven this, even if Lou did say this.
He played catcher this year in Iowa.
2 games. 2.
Obviously he was good enough there.
No, he wasn’t. He was taken out of that position, during his development despite the fact that slugging catchers are a high-value position. That should tell you something.
by Wreckard on Jul 22, 2009 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
By refusing to play Fox
at 3B, he did say Fox was incapable. You want us to accept that Fox is a butcher when the facts say otherwise. Now you want us to accept that he will be a butcher at C. Again, I disagree. When our offense is desperate, it behooves Lou to consider options that will improve the team. fox is an option that i feel deserves to be tried. It’s really that simple.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What "facts"
say Fox is good at 3B? Your eyes?
All measureable stats (minor leagues) indicate that Fox can’t play 3B or C well.
This season IS over. -BLou 6/30/09
by Kansas25 on Jul 22, 2009 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Show me where I ever said good
I said he was acceptable as a replacement. And where are the measurable stats that prove he isn’t qualified?
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You said the facts show otherwise.
I’d like to know those “facts.”
I don’t believe advanced metrics are available for the minor leagues, but minor league analysts were all down on Fox’s defense. I’m sure you’ve read Al’s posts; that “notch above horrific” was an analyst’s take on Fox’s defense. I believe it was from Baseball Prospectus, but not positive.
This season IS over. -BLou 6/30/09
by Kansas25 on Jul 22, 2009 7:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fox has had
37 chances at 3B this year. He made 1 error on a Washington infield that is terrible. Is that the play of a butcher?
Actually the reference to horrific was supposedly made to Jim callas by a scout he spoke to a year prior to his remark. If that defines Fox rather than his work at 3B, I want another jury.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 8:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
looking at just errors is a terrible way to evaluate defense
by cufban2522 on Jul 23, 2009 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right
But he claimed the facts showed Fox was a butcher at 3B. He never provided any facts, only claims.
The lgRFG is 2.21. Fox has a RF/G of 2.40. Those are the facts.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 23, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where did you get that quote?
He didn’t say that
"I still don't know what happened"- Fergie Jenkins on '69
by tommy veryzer on Jul 22, 2009 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was paraphrasing.
Experts continue to parade Heilman out there time after time. Experts gave us Neifi Perez. Experts gave us this economy. Sometimes the experts are wrong.
The implication here is that, because experts are sometimes wrong, it’s within the realm of possibility that despite having watched him catch hundreds of balls in practice that they won’t have any idea whether or not Fox can catch unless they put him in a game.
by Wreckard on Jul 22, 2009 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is no need to paraphrase
Let me say it for the 100th time. Experts are often wrong. You see, when you add all your conditions to try and prove your point, you’re spinning my beliefs. And when you refer to experts on this issue, you essentially are talking about Piniella. The expert who claimed we needed more left handed bats was Piniella. The expert who is a batting expert who can’t seem to get Soriano to hit the outside pitch.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right, why paraphrase when the words you're actually using are so hilariously wrong
And when you refer to experts on this issue, you essentially are talking about Piniella.
It was decided long before he got to Chicago that he couldn’t catch, by multiple people in the organization.
The expert who claimed we needed more left handed bats was Piniella.
He was right. We may have gotten the wrong left handed bats, but that’s a different debate. Last year’s Cubs was one of the most right-handed teams to ever make the playoffs.
The expert who is a batting expert who can’t seem to get Soriano to hit the outside pitch.
He’s a coach, not a puppet master. There’s only so much a man can do.
by Wreckard on Jul 22, 2009 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was long decided the earth was flat
Many things are reviewed when circumstances change. Your refusal to accept change seems unreasonable. You’re telling us that Fox is so incompetent that he cannot enter a 11-3 or 10-1 game as catcher. I don’t accept that.
To suggest that our organization doesn’t make mistakes is to refuse to look at our history as one of the worst minor league organizations in baseball.
I presume we were too right handed to win 97 games. Is that what you’re telling me?
And finally, yes, Piniella can only do so much. The real problem is that he isn’t doing the job well this year. He is responsible for the team on the field and he isn’t getting the performance that is expected.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know, you're rather unpleasant.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 22, 2009 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And your "proof"
Was nothing of the sort. I said I liked what I’d seen so far. So what?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 22, 2009 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was just illustrating something I found funny.
You’re willing to forgive Fox of numerous cringe-inducing plays at third, but meanwhile Baker makes one bad play and is suddenly a shaky defender in your eyes.
by Wreckard on Jul 22, 2009 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, now that we've got the hostility out of the way (I hope . . . I'll stop)
My point is that it was a lazy play. Not a physical error so much as a lazy play that a major leaguer shouldn’t make.
I apologize for the tone that got us down that path.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 22, 2009 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't hate Baker
I just don’t want him on the roster. What does he provide that Blanco can’t do better? This isn’t about DeRosa. It’s about Hendry. putting a roster together that can win the Central.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What does he provide that Blanco can’t do better?
He can actually hit major league pitching. Blanco is a career .256 hitter in the minors. Why do people suddenly think he’s a major leaguer?
Let me put it this way: a strict platoon of Baker and Fontenot is more productive offensively than his holiness Mark Derosa. And better defensively.
by Wreckard on Jul 22, 2009 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In what universe
would that happen? But that is beside the point since DeRosa is unavailable. However you are falling into the same philosophy as Hendry. Take some past experience and predict it will be repeated. Last year he hit .221 away from Colorado. He was brought in to play 3B because Lou didn’t realize Fox was capable. Trade him to the Reds. Then at least the baker boys will be together again.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you managed to cram more wrong into a single post I'd have to start calling you BLou
In what universe would that happen?
In what universe would Baker and Fontenot end up in strict platoon? Um, this one?
However you are falling into the same philosophy as Hendry. Take some past experience and predict it will be repeated.
That’s how all human beings in the entire world work. If we couldn’t expect past experiences to repeat themselves, we wouldn’t be able to function. Or are you surprised, with wide-eyed childlike naivety, every time you put money in a soda machine and soda comes out?
Last year he hit .221 away from Colorado.
All players hit worse away from home. I’ve actually done the math to see how his offensive numbers translate to Wrigley…. have you?
He was brought in to play 3B because Lou didn’t realize Fox was capable.
This is blatantly false. Baker was traded for just 4 days before Ramirez was activated from the disabled list. Fox had played a number of games at third prior to that.
Baker was acquired because he’s a very good major league second baseman who absolutely crushes left-handed pitching, can play multiple positions, is under team control for multiple years and because he was essentially free.
by Wreckard on Jul 22, 2009 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Your arrogance continues
It seems you can’t accept opinions other than yours. So you paraphrase and refer to irrelevant studies that you presented. But there are indisputable facts that cannot be denies.
You claimed a platoon of Fontenot and Baker was better offensively than DeRosa. Tell me how many supporters that idea rallied? See, if you claim something that outrageous, your credibility is damaged.
You claim past experiences are expected to repeat themselves. Of course, that assumes players don’t get older or will never get injured or will play in the same ballpark. It’s ignorant not to attempt to factor past experience with those variables. Hendry took Soriano’s 40/40 and projected 8 years and an enormous contract. I guess you are alright with that.
Baker hit .221 away from Colorado. He had only played in Colorado. What did you expect him to do with the Cubs? He was another mistake. Of course you disagree but he hasn’t shown any evidence that he is better than Blanco. You claim Baker crushes lefties. This year his OBA is .133 against them.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s ignorant not to attempt to factor past experience with those variables
Like, say the fact that Jake Fox was terrible at C and 3b in the minor leagues? Or the fact that Baker has crushed lefties in the past?
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Jul 22, 2009 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Publish the facts
Fox never committed an error in his minor league career while playing 3B.
His RF/G as a catcher in the minors was 8.04.
Baker only crushed ar Coors. Other than that his career OPS is .595.
Explain how this disqualifies Fox or makes Baker a masher.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fox never committed an error in his minor league career while playing 3B.
Fox also barely played 3b in the minors. 5 games is a pretty small sample size to say anything about statistics-wise. I’ll go with the scouts, who graded his defense as “a notch above horrific”
His RF/G as a catcher in the minors was 8.04.
Range Factor is a completely useless stat in general, especially for catchers. Take a look at this post to see why he’s terrible defensively. We do have a big enough sample to conclude this. His ball-blocking ability will make you wish that Michael Barrett was back
Baker only crushed ar Coors. Other than that his career OPS is .595.
Is that his OPS vs LHP away from Coors? I didn’t say he was a masher, just a lefty-masher. He has an .887 OPS v LHB
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Jul 23, 2009 12:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You made the claim
that facts proved Fox was terrible at 3B and C in the minors. However you never provided any facts. I provided facts that showed otherwise. Now you hide behind small sample size. Remember you made the claim. It’s up to you to show the facts. Instead you refer to a second party quip from one scout. Sorry. That kind of fact won’t win any argument in a debate. And again, it supposedly came from 1 unnamed scout, not scouts as you claim.
I did review the catcher comparison you linked. Thank you for the info. However I certainly didn’t come away with your conclusion. It attempts to compare Soto’s stats with Fox’s lower level minor league stats. That is obviously a biased sample and any conclusions drawn are questionable at best. However, it did show Fox gunning down a higher perventage of runners than Soto.
I was unable to find any OPS away from Coors against lefties. However, the disparity of Baker’s OPS at and away from Coors are so staggering that I conclude his OPS on the road provides no reason to suspect he will mash lefties with the Cubs. Have you seen any warning track power from here since he arrived?
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 23, 2009 1:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You provided facts?
0 errors in 5 games is your factual evidence? Case dismissed.
This season IS over. -BLou 6/30/09
by Kansas25 on Jul 23, 2009 1:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was his actual experience
Those are the only facts about his experience at 3B in the minors. You pontificated that facts proved he was incapable at 3B. Tell us how you came to that conclusion based upon the facts. You made the initial claim. I did not. Prove it if you can.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 23, 2009 2:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just...facepalm
We have no ‘facts’ about Fox’s ability to play CF or SS. Would you want to put him out there? Obviously there is no way that can convince you about this.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Jul 23, 2009 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You still haven't
responded to your insistence that “facts” prove Fox isn’t capable of playing 3B. Instead you head in another direction. Show us the proof you claim to have or admit you don’t have any. Which is it?
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 23, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You still haven't shown me any CREDIBLE facts that Fox IS capable of playing 3b
The point is, we have no facts, so we have to take the words of the scouts here. Saying that someone made no errors in 5 games is not a fact, it’s a coincedence.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Jul 23, 2009 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me repeat
You made the assertion that the facts proved he was a butcher at 3B. It’s up to you to prove your assertion. The fact that 1 unnamed scout supposedly said he was horrific is an opinion. Obviously, to this date, he has not been horrific.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 23, 2009 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hahahah
The fact that 1 unnamed scout supposedly said he was horrific is an opinion. Obviously, to this date, he has not been horrific.
by Wreckard on Jul 23, 2009 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What a remarkable
comment full of the wisdom I’ve come to expect from you.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 23, 2009 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well you
stupid twit if you are dumb enough to believe its just “one unamed” scout who thinks Fox can’t hack it on defense then there is no point in anyone wasting time with you.
The Cubs have had YEARS to evaluate Jake Fox. If he was even remotely possible of handling C he would still be there. Even a dunce like you should understand how valuable a slugging catcher is. The fact that the Cubs had him give the position up SPEAKS VOLUMES about his ability. The fact that Baseball America blasted him harder than any player I can remember SPEAKS VOLUMES. The fact that you can’t understand these things and continue to spout out nonsense SPEAKS VOLUMES about you.
by CalCalender on Jul 23, 2009 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good luck
I said virtually the same thing a couple of days ago, hope you have better luck getting the points across. Some like tharr think real baseball is like fantasy baseball, you can play guys anywhere.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Jul 24, 2009 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just can't keep up man
That comment I quoted is just so rich with irony that I can’t stop laughing.
by Wreckard on Jul 23, 2009 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I say this in all seriousness
And I really, truly mean this. No internet BS.
Tharr- You are a very stupid person. You need to take a day or two off, come back and take a look at your line of reasoning. Then you educate yourself on how to properly convey your thoughts into a discussion.
by CalCalender on Jul 23, 2009 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well, I guess you and that scout have a difference of opinion
See my sig
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Jul 23, 2009 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ehh i watched him on tv
seemed pretty capable to me
wells4roty
by jesus christos on Jul 23, 2009 9:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
By the way
Be sure to give Jim Hendry and Randy Bush a call. Since you obviously know more than their professional scouting staff, they should hire you!
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Jul 23, 2009 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm so sorry
I forgot that in your world decision makers are never to be criticized because they know everything and always do the right thing.
What a pathetic attitude.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 23, 2009 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes, but they are usually right
That’s why they’re called experts
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Jul 23, 2009 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And that would be
the same philosophy as Cheney and the Wall Street bankers asserted. How did that work out for the country?
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 23, 2009 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure that our professional scouting staff is running a ponzi scheme....
by cufban2522 on Jul 23, 2009 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's seems as if
they were, you’d be on their mailing list.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 23, 2009 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
THE POLITICS TALK WILL END NOW
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Jul 23, 2009 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You claimed a platoon of Fontenot and Baker was better offensively than DeRosa.
I did, because it’s true. The math is very easy to do.
Tell me how many supporters that idea rallied?
Well, DGU, one of the smartest posters on the board, concurred.
See, if you claim something that outrageous, your credibility is damaged.
Hahaha, okay dude.
You claim past experiences are expected to repeat themselves.
I don’t claim this. Common sense claims this.
Of course, that assumes players don’t get older or will never get injured or will play in the same ballpark
And we know these things effect players based on… wait for it… past experience. You’re essentially saying we can’t expect past experiences to repeat themselves, and you’re basing this claim on past experiences. You’ve descended into lunacy.
It’s ignorant not to attempt to factor past experience with those variables.
Agreed. That’s why, in the post I linked to you that you didn’t or couldn’t read, I projected Baker’s stats factoring in the park effects of his old and new homes. You seem to be assuming that Coors is this bandbox that turns mediocre players into Bondsian supermen, when the reality is that Coors is only slightly more offense friendly than Wrigley (around 10%).
Hendry took Soriano’s 40/40 and projected 8 years and an enormous contract.
Are you honestly suggesting that Hendry didn’t take aging and park factors into effect before committing to a sum of money the size of the GNP of a small African country to Soriano? Exactly how incompetent do you think he is at his job?
You claim Baker crushes lefties. This year his OBA is .133 against them.
I’d try to explain to you what the words “small sample size” mean, but past experience has shown my that you wouldn’t understand anyway.
by Wreckard on Jul 22, 2009 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Step by step
The claim that Baker + Fontenot > DeRosa is again supported by your claim but unproven. If, as you say, it’s easy to prove, then prove it.
You suggest that because one other person agreed with you you have overwhelming support. You’re obviously not a numbers guy, are you.
hank Aaron is alive. However I don’t expect him to mash big league pitching based upon his past experience. Tell us. What is it about factoring past experience into meaningful projections that you can’t understand.
Yes, I did read your attempt to translate Baker’s 2008 Coors BA into a corresponding .285 BA in Wrigley. Of course you made no effort to translate Baker’s .595 OPS away from Coors into an expected number with the Cubs. It’s called selective sampling. Politicians use it all the time. You’re in good company with your spin control.
You apparently seem to feel Hendry was spot on with his Soriano signing. Perhaps you could put up a poll on the issue and find how many Cub fans agree with you. I certainly do not. To offer $17M per year for 8 years to someone over 30 just completing a career year with Washington seemed foolish at the time. today it looks even more outrageous.
I posted Baker’s numbers because they are what he is actually doing, not what you want him to do. Agreed, the sample is small. The only regret I have is that the sample is not smaller, or, in a best case scenario, non existent. Baker is not a solution and Hendry should have known that.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 23, 2009 2:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh my
it seems cubsluver 22 has competition for the biggest dunce here
by CalCalender on Jul 23, 2009 8:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're just flailing wildly at this point.
The claim that Baker + Fontenot > DeRosa is again supported by your claim but unproven. If, as you say, it’s easy to prove, then prove it.
A Baker / Fontenot strict platoon would put up an OPS of about .821. Mark Derosa’s OPS is .773.
hank Aaron is alive.
Maybe he can catch?
However I don’t expect him to mash big league pitching based upon his past experience. Tell us. What is it about factoring past experience into meaningful projections that you can’t understand.
Wait, now you’re taking that side of things? You can’t even keep your own arguments straight. Which I can understand – they’re wildly incoherent.
Of course you made no effort to translate Baker’s .595 OPS away from Coors into an expected number with the Cubs
Because… it won’t be all that different? And that would be obvious to anyone with even the minimum amount of intelligence needed to work the overnight shift at a convenience store?
It’s called selective sampling.
No, it’s not. It’s called rebutting the suggestion that playing at Coors grossly inflated Baker’s numbers.
Politicians use it all the time. You’re in good company with your spin control.
Watch out everyone! You’re now entering Tharr’s NO SPIN ZONE!
by Wreckard on Jul 23, 2009 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This
is the most unintentionally hilarious thing posted in the history of ever
Firstly, you are unable to understand logic. Secondly, you assume I am as incapable as you.- tharr
by CalCalender on Jul 23, 2009 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You offer a lot of words
yet make little sense.
We have a .595 OPS this year at 2B. Fontenot’s OPS is .676 and Baker’s is .584. Fontenot’s OPS vs LHP is .698. Baker’s OPS vs LHP is .500. Yet you claim together they would put up an OPS of about .821.
Tell us what combination of numbers you combined to get .821 OPS. You may enjoy picking numbers out of a hat and claiming their infallibility. But at least try to be close to the truth. Yours are twilight zone credible.
Baker spent his entire career with Coors as his home. Home OPS .886. Away .599. You still want to claim playing at Coors didn’t make a difference?
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 23, 2009 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not rocket science.
Though I guess that doesn’t stop it from going over your head.
Fontenot’s career OPS vs righties is .798. Baker’s career OPS vs. lefties is .888. When you aggregate those figuring a straight platoon, using 25% / 75% as your lefty / righty splits (for simplicity) you get an OPS of .821.
Baker spent his entire career with Coors as his home. Home OPS .886. Away .599. You still want to claim playing at Coors didn’t make a difference?
Let me put this in simple terms that, based on past experience, you’ll still fail to understand: Coors isn’t much more offense-friendly than Wrigley field is. Last season its park effect was 1.126, meaning for every run scored on average, 1.126 runs were scored at Coors. Wrigley, meanwhile, was just a few notches behind that with a park effect of 1.068.
Bakers numbers were absolutely influenced positively by the offense-friendly Coors – I never said they weren’t. However, they’ll be influenced to a similar degree by offense-friendly Wrigley.
by Wreckard on Jul 23, 2009 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ssshhh
you obviously dont understand logic the way that tharr does
by CalCalender on Jul 23, 2009 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I understand
is your attempt to pick some numbers and try to make your case. Based upon your approach we should have Maddux on the mound because of his career numbers. Based upon your approach there is no such thing as players having an individual bias for any park. You would have us believe that team stats override individual stats.
To bad your projection of a .821 OPS isn’t even close to what the actual results are. But, hey. trust your projections even if their credibility is flawed by current experience.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 23, 2009 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh man, you are truly the gift that keeps on giving.
Based upon your approach we should have Maddux on the mound because of his career numbers.
Where did I say that aging doesn’t affect players? You keep bringing up examples of aging players to “disprove” my projections. What’s especialy hilarious is that, if we did take aging into effect, it would actually help Baker, who is just entering his peak years. As usual you’re so hilariously bad at this that your own counterpoints are actually supporting me.
Based upon your approach there is no such thing as players having an individual bias for any park.
You mean… except for where I projected what Baker’s numbers would be if he were playing in a different park?
You would have us believe that team stats override individual stats.
I’m not even sure what this could possibly mean.
To bad your projection of a .821 OPS isn’t even close to what the actual results are.
My numbers are a projection based on a full season of a strict platoon between Baker and Fontenot. What we’ve had this season is a partial season with no platoon between Baker and Fontenot. Gee you’re right – that completely blows my argument out of the water.
by Wreckard on Jul 23, 2009 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
words
fail me. I honestly have never seen anything like this. I’m going to back out of this conversation before I have an aneurysm.
by CalCalender on Jul 23, 2009 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's probably the best thing for everyone involved
This is on the verge of crossing over from tragicomic to just sad.
by Wreckard on Jul 23, 2009 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One more thing
Start Fox behind the plate. If he screws up, we’ll see it quickly enough. Lou underestimated his defense at 3B. Maybe the same thing is happening at catcher.
Okay, those who defend Fox’s defense: are you not aware of this thing called “practice”? Why does everyone seem to think the Lou has to play the guy in a game to get a sense of how good or bad his defense is?
by Wreckard on Jul 22, 2009 11:18 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
In Fox's case
that would be me. Of course that is based upon the “sense” of him as a 3rd baseman.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Practice???
We’re talkin bout PRACTICE!?!?
by CalCalender on Jul 23, 2009 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fox at catcher???
Fox was a catcher in the minors but was moved out of the position. Power hitting catchers are a really hard commodity to find, so Fox’s defense must have been amazingly bad for them to give up on him catching. Fox as the emergency catcher (plays there only if the two “real” catchers are out of the game) is fine, but that’s it.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Jul 22, 2009 12:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
not necessarily true
Just because he moved out of position does not necessarily mean that he was a bad catcher. Like you said, power hitting catchers are hard to come by. First of all, with Fox’s age, for the Cubs to actually get any major league use out of him, we needed to convert him (assuming that Soto is going to be here for good).
Many minor league catchers that can hit are converted to corner positions in the infield and outfield because a team will get more years out of that player in the long run, considering that the catcher’s spot is so difficult on a player’s body. There are a few exceptions to this like Joe Mauer, who is a hitting machine, but eventually, the Twins will convert Joe Mauer to a corner position to get more out of his bat in the long run.
by cufban2522 on Jul 22, 2009 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Short-term Memory =
No longer playing the Nationals.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jul 22, 2009 12:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Fox is not a catcher
The problem as mentioned above is he is the only other catcher on the roster. This is another is a long line of very strange roster decisions all season. I have been completely baffled by the roster moves this year.
by rlpete on Jul 22, 2009 12:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Fox is not a 3B.
Oooooppppssss.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This isn't fantasy baseball
“Hey my player now qualifies at catcher so I’ll move him there to get better offense.”
by rlpete on Jul 22, 2009 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are right
It isn’t fantasy baseball. And we cannot afford to rely on Hill every day and freeze Fox off the playing field. He already surprised us with his adequacy as a substitute 3B. We will never know his game ability at catcher until we see him play. He had an entire college career at catcher with Michigan. It’s not like we’re taking some stiff and asking him to catch.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Defensively, Fox is a stiff, that's the point.
Regardless of what he did at UM, he proved not to be a pro quality catcher in his time in the Cubs’ minor league system. Playing him at 3B (where he has been at best serviceable) is one thing, but asking him to catch is a whole nuther thing. You cannot have a stiff behind the plate in the big leagues while you might get away with one at 3B.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Jul 23, 2009 8:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point
many here confuse managing their fantasy team with real baseball. Fox can catch is a great example. Fox is a bad defensive catcher, as the Cubs found out years ago.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Jul 23, 2009 8:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And he still hasn't proven to be a 3B.
Regardless of how you feel.
This season IS over. -BLou 6/30/09
by Kansas25 on Jul 22, 2009 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He has proven
to be an acceptable fill in at 3B.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's proven to be serviceable...
but certainly below avg. And yet you want to throw him in at the most difficult defensive position because of his bat. Fantasy Baseball time….
This season IS over. -BLou 6/30/09
by Kansas25 on Jul 22, 2009 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he does
have a history of being a catcher. I don’t see why it would hurt to try it.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 22, 2009 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with that.
I just think it’s a little excessive to be overly critical of Lou’s decision not to play Fox at catcher. I think it’d be worthwhile to throw him a start or two, but I also understand the rationale of why he isn’t playing.
This season IS over. -BLou 6/30/09
by Kansas25 on Jul 22, 2009 7:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree 100%...
…being a poor defensive catcher in the minors is one thing, but If he got any time in that spot in the bigs, other teams would be licking their chops.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Jul 22, 2009 7:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please explain
the distinction between acceptable and serviceable. And why do you mention Fantasy Baseball. I don’t play, never have played it, and it has nothing to do with my desire to see Fox tried at catcher.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think
he is basically saying that you are looking at the situation with a completely fan based bias, which in most cases, is not a realistic view of the subject.
by cufban2522 on Jul 23, 2009 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fox should be in the lineup
I am not arguing for it on a regular basis, but for today specifically. Its a day game after a long night game where Hill caught the whole thing. Plus our offense has not been able to hit the long ball which is a death sentence in Philly. If Wells was pitching today my guess is you would have seen fox catching.
by Chodes Jr on Jul 22, 2009 12:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
On what basis
do you claim he was below average? I never claimed he was as good as a starter. However, he played more than average defensively and his offense was better than many alternatives.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Jul 22, 2009 3:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm with Tharr on this one.
The offense is crap. All else being equal do you think the fans would prefer to watch a team that can’t hit, or a team that can mash with a few guys still learning their positions? I could care less about a guys footwork if he’s able to give us an actual offensive threat in a close game. Unfortunately ego, pride, and salary commitment have more to say about who plays than a recent history of production.
Now cue the know-it-all managerial apologists for a rebuke from their behind-the-scenes perspective.
by Jerry Mumphrey on Jul 22, 2009 7:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Fox should NOT catch
He should get some starts at 3B. I will be VERY surprised if the Cubs don’t pick up a real back up catcher FAST. It is not like they don’t want one. They tried to get Coste ( jeez couldn’t Jim have offered the Phillies A PROSPECT instead of hoping he cleared waivers ?).
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 22, 2009 10:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
What's that old saying - a picture is worth 74 comments?

I’ll let y’all figure out who in this thread gets to play the roles of Itchy & Scratchy here
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jul 22, 2009 10:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm not against Fox getting some extra starts here and there...
But only at 3rd or in DIRE situations at Catcher.
And for the catcher situation, it has to be as a start only.
Tharr, your idea of subbing him in during blowouts is ludacris.
Let’s look at a scenario… k?
We’re losing 11-3 in the third, we’ve already used 1 pinch hitter, and now we sub in Fox. We go through another PH and thenFox goes out in the 6th with a random injury, possibly from not playing catcher enough. Now we HAVE to put in someone. At this point, what would you do.
Cause I’ll tell ya right now, every “expert” will tell ya you don’t sub in your 2nd catcher midway through the game unless you at least have one other person that play catcher at Fox’s level (which ain’t pretty). Who else do we have that can play catcher, noone.
I’m with ya on more Fox AB’s, but subbing him in during a game at catcher is a terrible idea.
Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field? - Jim Bouton
by Beaushek on Jul 23, 2009 4:25 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Hate to follow my own post with my own post,
But you say that Fox is completely qualified to fill in for Ramirez?
If Ramirez qualified at 3b this year, he’d be the top 4th in ZR in the MLB
If Fox qualified at 3b this year, he’d be the 5th worst in ZR in the MLB
This means that if you look at his small sample size as gold, which you’ve done this entire fanpost… than you have to see that Fox’s defense isn’t “average” as you said earlier. It’s bad. We were told by your most hated foe, the experts, that he was a bad defender in the minors. He comes to the majors, you say he’s average, but actual statistics show that so far, he’s bad.
Another point that you haven’t even examined with the Catcher situation is the pitching staff. How much more has Hill examined tape on opposing pitchers? How much more has Hill talked to the pitchers to see what they like to throw in certain situations? How much more has Hill seen what a pitcher can and can’t throw or when they need to be settled?
We aren’t just talking about defense if we put Fox in at catcher, we’re talking about messing with our entire pitching staff. We have the 6th best ERA and 3rd best BA against in the majors, let’s throw in a guy who just met most of our pitchers a month ago?
It just doesn’t make sense.
(These stats brought to you by ESPN)
Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field? - Jim Bouton
by Beaushek on Jul 23, 2009 4:52 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
good post
but some here still think it is fantasy baseball and only offense matters
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Jul 23, 2009 8:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

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