Which do you think was more impressive: 20K vs. Perfect Game

by Cubbie-Tim on Jul 23, 2009 7:20 PM CDT Comment 100 comments

Which do you think was more impressive, a rookie throwing a 1 hitter with 20K (Kerry Wood) or today’s perfect game (Mark Buerhle)?

I am taking nothing away from what Mark Buerhle accomplished today. He deserves all the praise and glory for what he did today, and I tip my hat to a classy individual. Congrats to Mark Buerhle, and the White Sox who took over first place in the AL Central after today’s win.

Wood was a rookie, threw a one hitter (could have been an error and a no hitter). Wood was 2-2 in his rookie season going into that game. His game was a huge spark and every Cub fan today can tell you where they were when it happened. Kid K was born that day, and became an icon in the fans hearts.

Buerhle a seasoned vet threw his second no hitter and first perfect game of his career. Buerhle is in his 10th season and has a record of 132-90 heading into today. Buerhle has become one of five pitchers in the history of baseball to throw a no hitter and a perfect game.

Both pitched against a team with a good offensive line up.

I have to admit, one of the best parts of the game was how the Rays stood for Buerhle to show him the respect he deserved after beating them. That is what baseball is all about and should be, compete and show due respect when someone does something special.

Poll

Which do you think was more impressive

Buerhle's Perfect Game Today

82 votes

Wood's 20K his rookie season

136 votes

218 votes | Poll has closed

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Comments

Some of the factors you have to take into consideration.....

How many chances has the hitless team had to see the pitcher? Beurhle gets the edge…
The fact that Woody’s would have been a perfect if it wasnt for an error makes it impressive.
And lastly, you cant argue K’s. 20/28? That is nuts

"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying" - Michael Jordan, the one and only...

by LPLancer23 on Jul 23, 2009 7:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

And it actually was

20/27.

"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying" - Michael Jordan, the one and only...

by LPLancer23 on Jul 23, 2009 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

20/29

There was the hit, and he also hit Biggio with a pitch. So even if Orie makes the play, he still hit Biggio, so no perfect game.

by walsh2317 on Jul 23, 2009 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i lied

i voted for mark buerhle but then i looked up the number of times somebody has struck out 20. Only 4 times. 18 times for perfect game.

Milton ...... see the ball hit the ball

by lexmarklover on Jul 23, 2009 7:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

That 20-K game by Wood is considered the most dominant pitching performance ever...

or at least in the modern era. So I guess it depends. One infield single and 20K probably is more impressive than the perfect game and only 6 K.

But, that’s neither here nor there. Both are pretty amazing accomplishments.

by SouthernCub on Jul 23, 2009 7:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

certainly by Cub fans

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill

by lookingdeadred on Jul 24, 2009 8:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I believe they are both amazing feats

I tend to lean towards Woods 20K mainly cuz that is even more rarer than a natural cycle IIRC.

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Jul 23, 2009 7:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

A perfect game is a perfect game is a perfect game

It’s happened 18 times in MLB history. The last one was 4 years ago here in Atlanta. However, neither Buehrle nor Johnson picked up 20 Ks along the way.

Gotta go with Woody, but that takes nothing away from Buehrle! What a great performance today! Congratulations 27 times over!

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on Jul 23, 2009 7:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Johnson struck out 20

Against the Reds in 2001, but since the game went into extra innings, it wasn’t counted as an official 20 strikeout game.

by walsh2317 on Jul 23, 2009 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

DeWayne Wise....

…saved the day on that. again, not taking anything away from Buehrle’s outting, but Wise had to reach over the fence to bring back a homerun in the 9th.

by sunshine31 on Jul 23, 2009 8:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Then why mention it?

if you’re not taking nothing away from it.

He caught it, its an out. End of.

by cubsfaninatl on Jul 23, 2009 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

My first impulse was to go with Buehrle but then...

…I was won over by the fact that Wood’s accomplishment was much more rare.

In the final analysis, they’re both outstanding performances and White Sox fans have a right to feel pumped up tonight.

By the way, does anybody think Sox fans are still ticked about keeping Wise on the roster over Anderson?

by bluekoolaide on Jul 23, 2009 8:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Just give Buehrle credit

Too many “not taking away from Buehrle” posts. He threw a perfect game. Congratulations.

by rlpete on Jul 23, 2009 8:28 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs

what the hell are you talking about?

I might be mistaken, but I haven’t read one post that said Mark Buehrle sucked and didn’t deserve this. People say “not taking away from Buehrle” because the question asked which one is more impressive. I see that as more respect given towards him.

Milton ...... see the ball hit the ball

by lexmarklover on Jul 23, 2009 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

6 of one, half a dozen of the other

really, both were amazing. And for everybody who said “it’s happened 18 times”, come on. seriously? 18 times in over 100 years, 162 games a year for 30 teams…it’s impressive, and very rare. Tampa Bay is a pretty impressive offensive lineup, too. To wrap up my ramble, i’m not voting for either because they’re both separately but equally as impressive.

"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly

by ambrosiadreams on Jul 23, 2009 8:36 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I couldn't vote for one over the other either.

"Fasten your seatbelts"-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Jul 24, 2009 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Woods...

…performance was the most dominant I have every seen a pitcher perform. He was literally unhittable on that day, and it was men against boys. Wood accomplished that with his enormous physical skills and it was fun to watch.

I am more impressed with what Buerhle did, simply because he had to execute his performance without the pure physical gifts that Wood had. Spotting pitches, changing speeds and movement.

Burehle is a pitcher, and when he is on, it is like watching an artist fill up the canvas.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 23, 2009 8:44 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs

Most certainly couldnt have said it better....rec'd

by JB 23 on Jul 23, 2009 9:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The one Sox game I wished I watched

by Emelie on Jul 23, 2009 10:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

20K

If we are speaking about the more impressive PITCHING performance I would say the 20 K just because that is solely in the pitcher’s hands…because as great of a performance as burle’s was, we wouldn’t be talking about it without wise’s catch. In other words, a perfect game depends on more than pitching.

by pjs83 on Jul 23, 2009 8:44 PM CDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs

That's what I was thinking.

A perfect games takes the effort of the entire team on the field. I consider it more of a team accomplishment.

A 20 K performance is essentially just the pitcher and catcher being involved. I consider it more of an individual accomplishment.

Both are incredibly rare in MLB and pretty much sums up why I love baseball.

Hey, it's a new century!

by cowsarecool220 on Jul 24, 2009 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe Wood's

I would say Z’s nono last September 14th was a better pitching effort than Burehle’s. Z faced 28 batters, struck out 10 and only one ball made it to the outfield. Burehle struck out only 6 and had several groundouts. Hats off to him for a masterful performance, but I’ve seen better. Kerry was just filthy.

A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.

by copes006 on Jul 23, 2009 9:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

And "Wood"

is easier to spell than “Buehrle.”

A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.

by copes006 on Jul 23, 2009 9:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Disagree Z's...

…game was better than Buerhle’s.

Burehle faced one of the best hitting teams in baseball, was in a hitters park and didn’t exactly have the best defensive team behind him.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 23, 2009 9:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Miller Park

is a hitter’s park also. Z did it on the road, Buehrle at home. Their D was good enough today.

A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.

by copes006 on Jul 23, 2009 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

z also did it against the astros

whose homes were floating in the streets at the moment. not that zs nono wasnt impressive

wells4roty

by jesus christos on Jul 23, 2009 9:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Miller...

…is not near the hitter’s haven that the cell is, and the Stros are not near the lineup the Rays are.

All in all, some of the best pitched games have been one and two hitters, because you do need some luck to throw a no hitter or perfect game. Wood’s 20 strikeout game was the most dominant I have ever seen a pitcher on any single day. The Stros were doing well to foul the ball off, much less get a hit.

But again, Buerhle is a different animal and he is a pure pitcher. To do what he did (twice now) just shows how much the radar gun has screwed up how many evaluate pitchers. I’ve faced 95 mph fastballs and I have faced guys who could change speeds and spot the ball, and you can always dial up to the 95, but it is very difficult to get good swings against the finesse guy when they are hitting their spots.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 24, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tell me you're joking.

Seriously. Perfection is perfection and “almost” really lacks the same level of intensity.

"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra

by tville on Jul 23, 2009 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

No joke

Gotta go with Wood on this one. Unbeleivable stuff. If you have not seen the game, then watch it by all means. Z had 1 walk and beaned a guy but had better overall pitching than Buehrle, IMO.

A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.

by copes006 on Jul 24, 2009 6:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wood is one thing, but............

………..it seems you are making a case for Zambrano’s no hitter as superior to Buehrle’s perfecto.

"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra

by tville on Jul 24, 2009 8:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think

a case can be made for either one. Z’s no hitter was better pitched IMO and Buehrle got the benefit of some great defense. As a Cub fan I enjoyed the perfecto and politely appaud (insert golf clap).

A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.

by copes006 on Jul 24, 2009 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The only thing that tops Wood's 20k game

Is Don Larsen’s perfect game in the 1956 world series.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett

by berselius on Jul 23, 2009 9:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

It is pretty incredible...

… that with all the great pitchers who have thrown in postseason play in the 100+ years it’s been happening, there has been just that one no-hitter.

Know who had come closest to a no-hitter in the World Series before Don Larsen? A Cub. That’s right, Claude Passeau threw a one-hitter for the Cubs in game three of the 1945 World Series. The only hit was a single in the second inning; he also issued one walk.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al on Jul 24, 2009 7:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Haddix's 12 perefect innings is the greatest performance

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill

by lookingdeadred on Jul 24, 2009 8:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jose DeLeon's Great 1989 Game

Jose DeLeon faced the minimum 33 batters in 11 innings pitched in this August 30, 1989 game for the Cardinals against the Reds. Luis Quinones got a fourth inning single and was later erased on the bases when Eric Davis hit into a double play. The Reds ended up winning the game, 2-0, in 13 innings.

I don’t think we will ever see a pitcher duplicate that feat because pitchers very rarely go 11 innings in a game with which to begin. Even on the extremely rare occasion they do, chances are they are going to face more than 33 batters.

"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Jul 24, 2009 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's all Wood!!!

Kerry Wood was just nasty on his 20K day. The way those pitches moved… it was just sick. I’ve seen a pitcher throw nasty stuff every now and then, but to consistantly throw like that… Will probably never see it again unless spitballs/Knuckleballs are involved. We will see another perfect game… we’ll never see anything that nasty like Wood had again.

by TheHawkRules on Jul 23, 2009 10:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

IMHO, it's Buehrle, and here's why...

Wood’s 20K performance is amazing, but I give Buehrle the edge because of the difficulty of the achievement of a perfect game. By the time you get to the eighth and ninth inning, you are battling yourself, your emotions, as much as anything. Any mistake, any lapse of concentration, could result in a hit that would end the perfect game.

Wood, by contrast, was just pitching to win, using his stuff, doing the best that he could and probably fairly relaxed (in comparison). Sure, he may have been going for strikeouts, but if a guy got on, he could just go after the next guy.

Still, both games are amazing accomplishments, and I tip my cap to Buehrle, who seems like a genuinely good guy.

Ladies and gentlemen! It's 1985 all over again, but this time the offense goes to hell!

by Ross on Jul 23, 2009 10:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Come on

It’s the perfect game. How could it not be? The edge goes to Buehrle.

And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.

by Ace Venom on Jul 23, 2009 10:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Because 20Ks is much rarer ?

"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux

by Doggie Stalker on Jul 23, 2009 11:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

No

Because a perfect game is….well, perfect. What is better than perfect?

by azjazzman on Jul 24, 2009 3:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Because 20K's is one man doing it by himself.

A contact hitter needed his team to back him up. More impressive individual accomplishment is Wood.

"Pounding sand since 1982...."

by cubswynn on Jul 24, 2009 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

My sentiments exactly,

Don’t get me wrong, the perfect game is incredibly impressive and it takes your entire team to accomplish it. Great defense backing up a guy who is executing his pitches.
But a 20K performance can only be owned by the guy making the pitches. Personally, I find that more impressive.

I spent 90% of my money on women and drink. The rest I wasted - George Best

by Blue W on Jul 24, 2009 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I did it again....*contact pitcher.

"Pounding sand since 1982...."

by cubswynn on Jul 24, 2009 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Both pitchers were impressive, but...........

…………a perfect game is more impressive. Strikeouts are great, but retiring every single batter faced is an amazing accomplishment.

Kudos to Buehrle, even if he is likely a Cards fan………

"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra

by tville on Jul 23, 2009 10:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Perfect game

That’s better. Glad he didn’t do it against the Cubs.

by rgonzale on Jul 23, 2009 11:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Would have the White Sox stood for a Rays pitcher?

The answer is no.

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Jul 23, 2009 11:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

They might have. Most of the Sox guys are really class acts. Specifically Buerhle, Konerko and Dye.

I had to delete my twitter account. But you can still find me at fanfiction.net under puckish prosecutor.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Jul 24, 2009 6:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Any one of them that did

would have had their legs broken by Ozzie

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Jul 24, 2009 6:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Both are amazing

and I don’t think you can compare them. Just give out two gold medals.
The only thing I don’t like is that you said “first perfect game of his career”. Of course it’s his first. I don’t believe anybody has 2.

It never gets to be easy

by chitownhawkeye on Jul 24, 2009 12:01 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

read it again

i said the Sox took over first place, nothing about this being his first perfect game

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Jul 24, 2009 7:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

Both are amazing. It’s like comparing apples and oranges.

"Fasten your seatbelts"-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Jul 24, 2009 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

leave it up to a cub fan

to try to diminish todays performance with something from the Cubs past. lets talk today people. kerry Wood is in Clevland and this is 2009

by left shark on Jul 24, 2009 1:14 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

If you don't like the question then don't answer it...this is a Cubs forum

Go answer any of the number of questions about today’s game that are posted. Your trolling potshot got you the attention you wanted…now go hide in the corner.

by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 24, 2009 4:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I do not believe I diminished it at all

and I said that as have many, that we are not trying to take anything away from him. It was just a topic for discussion. You dont like the topic, then there is no need to read it or post a comment about it.

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Jul 24, 2009 7:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wood

I have to give Wood the slight edge in this.

Ironically Kerry and Mark are good friends. They both are heavily involved with a couple of the same charities and have gotten to know each other over the years.

In fact I think their wives are somehow related or connected and Kerry may have introduced Mark to his wife.

I had to delete my twitter account. But you can still find me at fanfiction.net under puckish prosecutor.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Jul 24, 2009 6:32 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Reminds us

Reminds us hate the Sox, love the Sox, think the Sox are satan’s spawn or just another baeball team.

But we are darn lucky to have 2 baseball teams in this town.

I had to delete my twitter account. But you can still find me at fanfiction.net under puckish prosecutor.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Jul 24, 2009 6:33 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

2?

the Cubs and…………..the Flyers?

A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.

by copes006 on Jul 24, 2009 6:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here is how I figured it

Woods 20 Ks was an individual effort. Something he accomplished with little to no help from the rest of his team.

Buerhles perfect game was a team effort. Something the team contributed to accomplishing.

Therefore, Woods accomplishment was greater.

I'm Buck Melanoma. Moley Russell's wart. Not her wart. Not her wart! I'm... I'm the wart. She's my tumor. My... my growth. My... uh, my pimple. I'm Uncle Wart. Just old Buck "Wart" Russell. That's what they call me, or Melanoma Head. - Uncle Buck

by Andiamo Cuccioli on Jul 24, 2009 7:10 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs

Exactly what I was getting ready to type.

"Pounding sand since 1982...."

by cubswynn on Jul 24, 2009 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Buehrle's perfect game is more impressive

To retire 27 straight batters at the major league level is the most impressive thing a pitcher can do. How many he strikes out is irrelevant. An out is an out, you don’t get bonus points for a strikeout.

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill

by lookingdeadred on Jul 24, 2009 8:16 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

By Bill James' Game Score method...

… you DO get “bonus points” for strikeouts:

GmSc – Game Score – This is a value created by Bill James that evaluates how good a pitcher’s start was.

Start with 50 points. Add 1 point for each out recorded, (or 3 points per inning). Add 2 points for each inning completed after the 4th. Add 1 point for each strikeout. Subtract 2 points for each hit allowed. Subtract 4 points for each earned run allowed. Subtract 2 points for each unearned run allowed. Subtract 1 point for each walk.

Buehrle’s game score for his perfect game was 93. Most of the highest game scores since 1954 are for pitchers in the 1950’s and 1960’s who pitched long extra-inning complete games, something that never happens today.

The highest game score since 1954 is 105 — for Wood’s 20-K game. Two other pitchers — Nolan Ryan, in his last no-hitter on May 1, 1991, where he walked 2 and struck out 16, and Sandy Koufax, in his perfect game on September 9, 1965, where he struck out 14, had game scores of 101.

Those are the only game scores over 100 posted in nine-inning games since 1954.

I’m not saying these games were better than Buehrle’s, only that by James’ Game Score method, they scored higher.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al on Jul 24, 2009 8:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

With all due respect to stats geek Bill James, an out is an out

That Buehrle “only” struckout 6 is irrelevant, he retired every batter he faced while Wood put two men on. Besides strikeouts are fascist.

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill

by lookingdeadred on Jul 24, 2009 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here's how I feel.

A perfect game is, well, perfect. However, I think Wood’s performance was more dominant.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al on Jul 24, 2009 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You sound like Wilbon on PTI.

"Pounding sand since 1982...."

by cubswynn on Jul 24, 2009 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would agree, Wood was more dominant, but

you can’t top perfection

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill

by lookingdeadred on Jul 24, 2009 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

But I think you had a typo

HE did not retire every batter; the TEAM retired most of the batters he faced.

by Andiamo Cuccioli on Jul 24, 2009 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hope this was an attempt at humor

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill

by lookingdeadred on Jul 24, 2009 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not really

The question was “which is more impressive”. Perfect was impressive. But it was way more impressive to see 20 Ks

by Andiamo Cuccioli on Jul 24, 2009 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

too bad, I gave you a way out

BTW, how is anything more impressive than perfect??? I have zero doubt many arguing for Wood’s effort would not be arguing for it if he was the White Sox pitcher and Buehrle was a Cub.

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill

by lookingdeadred on Jul 25, 2009 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

this is where it depends on how you view the games

My take for the two games I asked about

Woods performance more dominating and impressive vs. Buehrle
Sox performance more impressive than the Cubs

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Jul 25, 2009 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wood.

I’m not just being a Cubs homer here, I really do believe that. How many times has one event happen vs. the other? Moreover if the question (like I think it is) is based on individual preformance, than it most certainly goes to Wood. Buerhle is a contact hitter and needed the help of 8 other guys on the field and some luck. Wood was sheer domination, no luck involved.

Here’s another question to ask…which opposing team had the better line up?

"Pounding sand since 1982...."

by cubswynn on Jul 24, 2009 9:11 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

both had good offensive line ups

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Jul 24, 2009 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd argue that the '98 Astros had the better lineup...

…Alou, Bagwell, and Biggio were at their peaks, Derek Bell was very good that year, Carl Everett was terrific when healthy, while Berry and Hidalgo both played very well off the bench. Heck, even Brad Ausmus wasn’t useless with the bat that season. Ricky Gutierrez was the only Houston regular to be below average on offense. That Astro team led the league in runs scored despite playing half their games in the Astrodome, on their way to winning over 100 games. The Rays have a very nice lineup but there are more holes in their order than there were Houston’s.

Here’s the twist though. The lineup that Wood faced wasn’t full strength. Everett was hurt so the legendary Dave Clark filled in while the great Jack Howell played 3B that day. On top of that, Wood got to face the pitcher twice instead of a DH. Yesterday, Buerhle faced Pat Burrell, who’s had a lousy season but is still far more dangerous than Shane Reynolds. So I’d that, on the specific day in question, Buerhle faced slightly more difficult opposition. Another point in Buerhle’s favor is that yesterday afternoon was pleasant and warm, far more conducive to hitting than the chilly drizzle that Wood had to work with.

Still, Tim is right in that both pitchers faced very tough lineups.

I’m not sure which is feat is more impressive – Buerhle and Wood are such different pitchers. One’s a righty, one’s a lefty, and they take completely disparate approaches. Both accomplishments are amazing but the two guys are so different that a comparison is kinda silly – they can each be appreciated without one being held up as definitely more impressive than the other

"I'd rather play baseball than eat." - Andy Pafko

by LaddieRenfroe on Jul 24, 2009 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

*contact pitcher

"Pounding sand since 1982...."

by cubswynn on Jul 24, 2009 9:11 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Are you just looking for a comeback when Sox fans brag about this?

"Fasten your seatbelts"-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Jul 24, 2009 9:18 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

no, just curious how people are loking at the two games

both dominant and amazing feats, both worthy of admiration no doubt. I wish Dr Crawdad were here, I would like to hear his opinion, since he likely would have a different point of view. This is not about bragging rights, but about the perceprion of the two games.

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Jul 24, 2009 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

gotcha

"Fasten your seatbelts"-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Jul 24, 2009 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wood was more dominant

and therefore more impressive.

Wood didn’t need a defender to make a circus catch in the outfield.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Jul 24, 2009 9:22 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

He just needed a third baseman to come through the baseball and field it.

sigh—-

I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg

by Trey2317 on Jul 24, 2009 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

it is a team sport

the catch was impressive too

"Fasten your seatbelts"-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Jul 24, 2009 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

that it was

and what timing as well, 9th inning, perfect game on the line, and he started in then had to bust ass to get to the wall in time. he too deserves kudos for the play

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Jul 24, 2009 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Buehrle was perfect

therefore more impressive.

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill

by lookingdeadred on Jul 24, 2009 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Woods was more impressive

because his performance was 1 man vs 20
Buerhle’s was 9 men vs 27

by Andiamo Cuccioli on Jul 24, 2009 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Which was more impressive?

Brownings performace
Buerhles performance
Johnsons performance http://www.mlb.com/news/wrap.jsp?ymd=20040518&content_id=746489&vkey=wrapup2004&fext=.jsp&c_id=ari

by Andiamo Cuccioli on Jul 24, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

How about Reuss, 1980?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN198006270.shtml

The only batter to reach was when Bill Russell booted a routine grounder in the first. Technically, Reuss retired 28 in a row.

Ladies and gentlemen! It's 1985 all over again, but this time the offense goes to hell!

by Ross on Jul 24, 2009 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Terry Mulholland's Imperfect 1990 Game

On August 15, 1990, Mulholland gave up no runs, no hits, no walks, hit no batters, made no errors himself, and only faced the minimum 27 batters. However, he didn’t pitch a perfect game because Charlie Hayes made a throwing error allowing Rick Parker, a guy I’ve never heard of, to reach first. Dave Anderson hit into a 6-4-3 double play in the following at-bat to erase Parker on the bases.

"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Jul 24, 2009 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

How about Ernie Shore?

On June 23, 1917, Babe Ruth was the starting pitcher for Boston, facing Washington. Ruth walked the first hitter, showed his displeasure with the call by punching the home plate umpire, and was ejected. He was replaced by a guy named Ernie Shore. Shore picked the runner off first (or the runner was caught stealing, reports differ), then retired the next 26 batters in order. For decades afterwards, Shore was credited with having thrown a perfect game but then taken off the list when MLB came up with official rules for that sort of thing (probably after the Harvey Haddix game). So today, Shore is listed as having combined on a no-hitter with Ruth.

"I'd rather play baseball than eat." - Andy Pafko

by LaddieRenfroe on Jul 24, 2009 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not officially a perfect game anymore, what a rip off.

BTW, getting picked off counts as a caught stealing.

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill

by lookingdeadred on Jul 25, 2009 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

picked off/caught stealing

Yes, the two are scored the same. Some accounts say that Morgan (the Washington lead-off man) tried to steal 2nd base and was thrown out by the catcher whereas others credit Shore with having thrown to first and picked him off. It was a very long time ago and the sportwriters of the time would occasionally fudge things, for the benefit of their copy, as fans couldn’t watch it on TV or hear it on the radio at the time.

"I'd rather play baseball than eat." - Andy Pafko

by LaddieRenfroe on Jul 29, 2009 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

not sure

but all were more impressive than Wood’s 20K game. Perfect is always more impressive than imperfect.

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill

by lookingdeadred on Jul 25, 2009 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Depends on what your point of view is

Buehrle’s perfect game is a once in a lifetime accomplishment that has happened only 18 times, considering how many games have been played that’s pretty ridiculous.

However, even as a Sox fan I’ll fully admit Kerry Wood’s 20K game was the most amazing performance by an individual pitcher. Wood was like watching Kobe Bryant score 81 points, while Buehrle was like watching a vintage Bulls game where everyone chipped in and they won by 30 points. Both were amazing moments, and any sane baseball fan will always remember watching them.

The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.

by Ozzie Montana on Jul 24, 2009 12:32 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs

nice post

I totally agree and especially like your analogy.

Spectacular sig—maybe you could add John Paxson = Elgin Baylor.

by socalbob on Jul 24, 2009 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

that was a great

way of puitting this into perspective.

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Jul 24, 2009 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

If a Cub player does it, it is more impressive regardless.

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill

by lookingdeadred on Jul 25, 2009 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dave Kaplan stole this one for his own blog...

Asking the same question, nearly verbatim, on his website. I wouldn’t have noticed it because I don’t frequent “Kap’s Corner” but he asked the question on the WGN postgame show and then referred listeners to his blog.

It’s not grounds for a lawsuit or anything but Kaplan should have the courtesy to reference BCB or at least link to the above fanpost on his own page. It’s just laziness on his part and, in a roundabout way, a compliment to Tim.

"I'd rather play baseball than eat." - Andy Pafko

by LaddieRenfroe on Jul 24, 2009 5:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

WOW!

that made my day

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Jul 24, 2009 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah,

and Pat and Ron were discussing this too. They had to have gotten that from you.

"Fasten your seatbelts"-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Jul 24, 2009 6:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

everyone did

dontcha know

I am not worried who got it from where, it is a good discussion to have about the two games

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Jul 24, 2009 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, I didn't hear Pat and Ron talking about it...

…and, apparently, a number of other Chicago media sources have tried to compare the two performances. I didn’t think of Wood’s game while watching yesterday’s highlights and to see the question asked for the first time, last night in Tim’s fanpost, it struck me as odd…trying to decide which of the two games was better? I thought it was weird, like comparing Phil Niekro to Nolan Ryan, holding Ichiro up against Ryan Howard…apples and oranges. Still, I can see the natural link between the two, the best Cubs’ pitching performance in recent memory held up against Buerhle’s game yesterday.

So I probably overreacted, focusing on the fact that Kaplan also used the word “impressive” (an odd choice, when “better” is probably a, well, better term for the question) and pimped his own blog. Also, Kaplan irritates me to no end … Why is he always shrieking? It sounds like he’s constantly in danger of pinning back the meter. What’s next, referring to giardinera bottlers and used car salesman as “MY GUYS!!!”? … so I jumped on him without doing the background research. Sorry Dave.

At the same time, I think the whole thing should’ve made Tim’s day. Even if the initial comparison is a bit wayward, it seems to have become the topic of the day. Perhaps it was mentioned first in a game thread here, on another Cub-related site, or some obscure blogspot. And I had 20 minutes of fun looking at the boxscore from Wood’s game, dispelling the unfounded notion that Charlie Hayes, rather than Jack Howell, had hit clean-up for the Astros in that game. So thanks Tim, good work.

"I'd rather play baseball than eat." - Andy Pafko

by LaddieRenfroe on Jul 24, 2009 10:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Give Buehrle his due.

That was pretty damn special.

I’ll say this, however. Watching a pitcher make major league hitters look like fools with the bat is more impressive to me than watching infielders make routine plays to first on weak ground balls.

Kerry gets the nod from me—by a slight margin.

"I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said." ~William F. Buckley, Jr.

by Goodie1969 on Jul 25, 2009 8:22 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs