On Cubs and Pirates
by ClarkFan44 on Jul 27, 2009 2:19 PM CDT
47 comments
From mlbtraderumors.com:
Notice the third bullet down: The Pirates are in regular contact with the Cubs. I like this. But my question is with so many other teams talking with the Bucs and so many teams scouting Freddy Sanchez (including the Tigers and Twins) why don't we make a move??
When Al mentioned going for Freddy Sanchez several weeks ago, I thought no way it could happen. I even thought it sounded silly, but now it just seems to sound more and more like a good idea. With all that has happened, i.e. Sanchez rejecting his extension and the Cubs moving into first, I really think we move for a deal for Sanchez and reliever John Grabow. Hopefully Hendry is working on a move like this as I type.
This deal helps the pitching and lets Sean Marshall move back to the rotation and gives us a solid lefty if the BJ Ryan experiment does not work out. I don't think trying for another lefty starter would be a bad idea; Zach Duke being the first choice, then Ian Snell and lastly Tom Gorzelanny. The Pirates said they wanted a "gaggle" of prospects for Duke, (which is too much, a gaggle is almost always too much) so I doubt that happens and I'm not really sure if Snell is any sort of upgrade over Marshall or even Kevin Hart if he continues to improve.
Offensively, this move could benefit us greatly as Sanchez could become the everyday 2B, putting Fontenot back into a reserve role where I think he did very well last year. Sanchez has hit nearly .300 all year, has decent speed and could thrive hitting 2nd after Fukudome leading off. This allows us to follow with Lee-Ramirez-Bradley-Soriano, making Soto the #7 hitter when he returns to the lineup with Theriot wrapping it up.
I know I am dabbling in being overly excited and optimistic, but I think a move for Grabow and Sanchez could really, really help the club and help us stay in first place down the stretch. The only question is who would the Pirates want in return - and honestly - I don't know. I won't pull any Eric Hanna or "Bulls Fan" ideas, I'll just leave that up to Jim Hendry to decide and ofcourse for you to discuss here ...
good deal ?? terrible idea ?? who would we have to give up ?? your thoughts ????
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Ok, let me apologize
to Cubsluver22 because i didn’t read all the comments on his post, and many talk about Grabow/Sanchez …. so sorry this is bit of a repeat …. still interested in hearing what you think of the deal and who might have to give up to make it happen
"If loving Peyton Manning is wrong, I don't wanna be right"
by ClarkFan44 on Jul 27, 2009 2:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That's all well and good...
…but who exactly are we giving up?
The mentions of allowing players to go back to their original positions, etc, doesn’t seem to allow for us to be giving them anything.
by KDoggers on Jul 27, 2009 2:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
To clarify
I don’t mind the idea of the possible acquisitions, but I think doing that requires us to get rid of a few minors guys that I don’t really like the idea of disposing of now.
Realistically, I don’t see us making a big move. The non-baseball issues of the Cubs seem to be pointing the club in that direction, and so we will likely be seeing the same guys on field at the end of September that we’ve been seeing on field.
Well, scratch that, hopefully we see the full potential of those guys come October 1st.
by KDoggers on Jul 27, 2009 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How bout we trade a good prospect for Gorzelanny
and then GIVE him to the Brewers. Cubs absolutely KILL the guy.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 27, 2009 2:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
gorzelanny for braun fielder and gallardo straight up
wells4roty
by jesus christos on Jul 27, 2009 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I feel compelled to point out...
… that Gorzelanny has been excellent in Triple-A this year — 14 starts, 2.46 ERA, 79 K in 80.1 innings and only 3 HR allowed.
If the Cubs had a lefthander like this at Iowa, we’d all be hollering “BRING HIM UP!”
It might be a way to get a decent pitcher cheap. Maybe he’s figured it out and gotten back to his 2007 level.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Jul 27, 2009 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good Point ...
I’ve actually been meaning to go watch him (and Snell too) in Indy all year since I just moved down here a couple months ago … so Al … at this point how do you feel about 2B … stay with Fontenot/Baker or make a move ??
"If loving Peyton Manning is wrong, I don't wanna be right"
by ClarkFan44 on Jul 27, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Fontenot/Baker will be just fine.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Jul 27, 2009 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We need more RBIs from 2B.
The past two years, the DeRosa-Fontenot combo gave us 101 and 127. Add in the drop-off in expected RBI from our catcher position (Soto had 86 last year), and it magnifies the need for more run production at 2B.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jul 27, 2009 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no problem with
Jeff Baker. Wile it’s tempting to jump at every new guy on the market (Sanchez, shiny!!!), at some point, you have to trust your own. Baker and Fontenot (include Blanco in the same area) are reasonably priced players… the types we need moving forward.
If BJ Ryan sounds ready to produce, Grabow becomes less essential. Gorzelanny (and Duke, who is much better) are unnecessary, unless they can be acquired at pennies on the dollar. We have plenty of starters going forward, but a Junior Lake (to randomly float a name) for John Grabow might be reasonable, though I’d rather give less.
And regarding Ryan: if he has anything left, how does his contract work for next year. He’s a free agent, but does that money get deducted from what Toronto owes him? Or is he getting paid twice, Toronto money plus?
by tim815 on Jul 27, 2009 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's only going to make what Toronto is paying him
I can’t find specific info about the contract he signed with the Cubs, but if it was just for this year, next year he’ll be able to sign with whatever team he wants, who will give him a league-minimum contract (since the Jays will be paying the rest).
by madcow256 on Jul 28, 2009 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Al,
Just got back from scouting the Indians last week. Let me share a few quick thoughts.
Robinson Diaz – A good little catcher that could be a nice Koyie Hill like backup from.
Ian Snell — Still needs work, but is serviceable right now at the back of the rotation.
Gorzelanny – Stay. Away. Both he and Snell are just polished enough to give AAA hitters fits, which makes their stats down there look better than they are. He’s still giving up way too many fly balls, and he’s getting people out with a high fastball that MLs would be clocking. This is one of those times where the stats are telling you lies, which is why he’s down there, and not in Pittsburgh in the first place.
Oh, and for the record, Wade Davis of the Bulls is a beast. I heard he was in the Cliff Lee talks, and I saw why.
by Damen Jackson on Jul 27, 2009 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I meant...
Koyie Hill-like backup for someone, by the way.
by Damen Jackson on Jul 27, 2009 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Having watched the Indians all year
I’d stay away from all of them.
Like you say, Gorzelanny is good enough to get Triple-A hitters out, but Indianapolis is an extreme pitchers park – to the tune of 405 to left center and 380 to right center. He wouldn’t fare nearly as well in Chicago.
Snell has talent, but who knows what is there mentally. He complained pretty much the whole season about the “negativity” in Pittsburgh and asked to come to Indianapolis. If he thinks the Pittsburgh media is tough, how could he handle Chicago?
Among the two Indians catchers, I think I’d rather have Erik Kratz than Diaz, though Diaz has seen some big league time this year.
I’ll see Gorzelanny again tonight, so if anything pops up, I’ll mention it.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jul 27, 2009 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please do...
I was trying to be kind, but the short version of my notes from that trip was that there wasn’t really anyone from that affiliate that I would be interested in.
And yeah, I had to do a double-take when I saw those park dimensions.
by Damen Jackson on Jul 27, 2009 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The nice thing is the Pirates have had good defensive CFs come through.
Chris Duffy, Nate McLouth, rajai Davis, Nyjer Morgan and Andrew McCutcheon have all been fun to watch here over the years.
There really aren’t any guys on this team that I could see helping the Cubs in a trade. Most of the names are already up with Pittsburgh, anyways. Right now, the Indians outfield consists of Lastings Milledge, Chris Barnwell (who?) and Brian Myrow (another who?). It’s brutal.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Jul 27, 2009 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I'm asking ...
It’s clear they want prospects …. they took 4 (i think) prospects in the McLouth deal and 2 for Adam Laroche … so with that in mind, how many – and who? – would we have to give up for Sanchez and Grabow … I think that is more the question I am asking
"If loving Peyton Manning is wrong, I don't wanna be right"
by ClarkFan44 on Jul 27, 2009 2:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
a lot less than those two
Sanchez is still owed a lot and Grabow is Ok but not great.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 27, 2009 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sanchez
As much as I like the guy, the Cubs already have a plethora of second basemen. I’m fine with the Baker/Fonty platoon cause they’ve hit well lately, and it gives Mighty Mouse the ability to only hit righties. At this point, a good “Loogy” is what the Cubs’ bullpen needs.
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Sir Winston Churchill
by propheteer on Jul 27, 2009 2:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The thing on Sanchez is...
….because of his contract, he would probably cost less in prospects.
Plus, he’d be the everday solution at 2B.
"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez
"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
by The Jade Scorpion on Jul 27, 2009 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a good point
Would Hendry trade Fonty or Baker at that point?
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Sir Winston Churchill
by propheteer on Jul 27, 2009 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is an everyday 2B solution necessary?
By utilizing a platoon, the Cubs can potentially squeeze more production out of two lesser players (with different L/R splits) than an everyday player might give us (look at DeRosa/Fontenot last year for an example). It seems like we have room on the roster (at least, as soon as Soto gets back) to support a platoon, so why would we want to take on that much salary for such a small benefit?
by madcow256 on Jul 28, 2009 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It isn't
Baker/Fontenot are fine.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Jul 29, 2009 8:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's a Fanpost up...
…over at the Buc’s Dugout discussing a potential Cubs-Pirates trade for Zach Duke. Reading Pirates’ fans thoughts, I just don’t see how a Duke deal gets done. They’re going to want prime prospects whom I don’t want to see go period, much less to a division foe. And I have no trouble believing Damen’s assessment of Gorzellany above. Let the White Sox trade for him – he’s a Sox fan anyway.
Here’s a link to that Fanpost.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 27, 2009 3:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Zach Duke would cost too much in return
Freddy Sanchez? I can think of better ways to spend even more money.
Cubs will win 79 to 83 games. Season has been over for weeks. St. Louis will eventually run away with this division. And you can print it. BLou (7/21/09)
by BLou on Jul 27, 2009 3:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Jack Wilson might be the target
He is an excellent shortstop and frees Ryan Theriot to move to 2nd base where he would be better suited. A middle infield of Wilson and Theriot makes the Cubs a stronger club than they are today.
Cubs will win 79 to 83 games. Season has been over for weeks. St. Louis will eventually run away with this division. And you can print it. BLou (7/21/09)
by BLou on Jul 27, 2009 4:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
so
third place instead of fourth? Maybe… 81-85 games?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 27, 2009 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wilson can't hit.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Jul 28, 2009 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jack wilson = Andres Blanco
Both play great D, neither can hit.
by desmoCubbie on Jul 28, 2009 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bingo.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 28, 2009 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
would be a great trade
He could be had for less than sanchez, allow theriot to move to second, is an ok hitter (better than our current second baseman), and perhaps the best defensive shortstop in baseball.
by arastis21 on Jul 28, 2009 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with the posters above
He’s more or less Blanco with more playing time. No need to spend whatever remaining money we have on him, even if I do like the idea of Theriot at second.
by madcow256 on Jul 28, 2009 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could you define "OK hitter"?
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 28, 2009 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
compared to others at his position, shortstop, he is an average or OK hitter. Even though he is an average hitting shortstop, he is doing better than our current 2nd basemen. Also, I believe people on this board are underestimating what a superb fielder he is. If we inserted him at shortstop and moved riot to 2nd our infield defense would be boosted tremendously. For the batting skills Wilson may lack he makes up for this with his defensive skills.
by arastis21 on Jul 28, 2009 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He may be an average-hitting SS in 1962...
…but I think today’s middle infielders are expected to breach the .700 OPS mark – something Wilson’s done only twice in his career. (What was the deal with his 2004 and 2007 seasons? His hitting was drastically better in both campaigns.)
Again, if the Cubs wanted to go “all defense” at the SS position, they could just roll with Andres Blanco – who’s much younger than Wilson and appears to provide just as good a glove. (Not that I expect the team to actually do this.) There’s no point in wasting trade pieces on a sexy name when an in-house solution could likely provide the same (or just about the same) results.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 29, 2009 8:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We're always in regular contact with the Pirates
They are the Cubs AAAA team. Hendry has dealt with them on a yearly basis, and former Pirates GM, Dave Littlefield, is on the Cubs payroll.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jul 27, 2009 4:27 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Snell???
Why would anyone be interested in Ian Snell? lol
by TuscaniLove on Jul 27, 2009 4:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't get it
What’s the Snell-Duncan link?
by Mike Martin on Jul 28, 2009 1:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
duncan takes pitchers
with talent and a history of not getting it done. duncan hypnotizes them (or whatever) into being good pitchers. the first i can remember was dave stewart. many students later, todd wellemeyer was good for awhile. if snell ends up with duncan, he could end up winning 17 a year. or, maybe he just isn’t very good.
by tim815 on Jul 28, 2009 8:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wellemeyer
Needs to be rehypnotized again. Snell showed good promise for a few years hence his new contract he got at the beginning of the year, but we all know how he has performed this year.
by TuscaniLove on Jul 28, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would rather acquire Freddy Bynum...
than Freddy Sanchez.
This season IS over. -BLou 6/30/09
by Kansas25 on Jul 27, 2009 10:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I would rather have ANDREW Bynum
Than Freddy Bynum.
"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver
by wrigleyrocker12 on Jul 28, 2009 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea the pirates will probably
try to help the cubs with a bad trade their history shows it and hendry must have somethiong on pirates GM
by left shark on Jul 28, 2009 2:27 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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