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Rules Question and Argument Against Fuld Call-Up

First, let me say that this is my first post on this terrific Web site, although I have been following for quite some time. I hope I can add some content and not come off as a complete idiot.

My only comment after today's game, which we can all agree went well, is that Sam Fuld should not be called up to take Reed Johnson's spot. Although I'm a big Fuld fan, we have enough left-handed outfielders.

In my opinion, catcher Chris Robinson deserves the call-up instead. Robinson's been doing well in Iowa (hitting .321 with one error). But more importantly, he would provide a backup catcher to relieve Hill and free Mr. Jake Fox from the strange position he is in now (backup catcher, but never really used as such). I know Fox can't really play the outfield, but we can all agree that getting his bat in the lineup is a good thing (or at least as a pinch hitter, which Lou has been reluctant to do since he is the backup catcher). Yes, Lou might have to get creative about staffing the outfield, but I think it's the thing to do.

Anyway, on to the real point of this post. Watching the 15-inning marathon Cards/Dodgers game tonight, in which the Dodgers blew leads in the bottom of the 9th and 11th, I was wondering if it was possible for a pitcher to blow two saves in one game. That is, if the closer was called on in the bottom of the 9th with a 1-run lead, the other team scored a run to send it into extras but the closer was still in, his team scored in the top of the 10th, and the closer blew it again in the bottom of the 10th.

It occurred to me that it shouldn't really be possible because if the closer was still the pitcher going into the 10th, he would then become the pitcher of record when his team scored and obviously he could not save the game for himself.

But what if the manager pulled a Lou Piniella-Sean Marshall-left field move, where he temporary moved the closer to another position. Then it would be possible, right? Does anybody know for sure? And has it ever happened?

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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hmm

It occurred to me that it shouldn’t really be possible because if the closer was still the pitcher going into the 10th, he would then become the pitcher of record when his team scored and obviously he could not save the game for himself."

This is correct. The pitcher would become the potential pitcher to win or lose. he wouldnt be elligible to save his own lead, he would just get the win or loss. these are the save rules according to wikipedia:

That rule states the official scorer shall credit a pitcher with a save when such pitcher meets all four of the following conditions:
   1. He is the finishing pitcher in a game won by his team
   2. He is not the winning pitcher
   3. He is credited with at least ⅓ of an inning pitched
   4. He satisfies one of the following conditions:
         1. He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning
         2. He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, at bat or on deck
         3. He pitches for at least three innings

Link to the wiki here

by CubsFanInWisconsin on Jul 30, 2009 2:11 AM CDT reply actions  

I don't know.

Could Marshall blow a lead in the ninth, move to LF for the 10th, and then blow the lead in the 11th?

This season IS over. -BLou 6/30/09

by Kansas25 on Jul 30, 2009 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

yes i think so

then he wouldnt be the pitcher of record any more

by CubsFanInWisconsin on Jul 30, 2009 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Either that or this scenario

say Marshall blows a one run lead with two outs in the ninth and then gets moved to left field. Bring in, we’ll say Guzman, to get the final out of the ninth. Ramirez hits a clutch solo homer in the top of the 10th, Guzman is in line for the win. Bring Marshall back in to start the top of the 10th, say he gives up a leadoff homer. He has just blown two save opportunities in the same game. It wouldn’t be credited as such, I don’t believe, but technically speaking, he would have blown two opportunities.

by burncruisin on Jul 31, 2009 2:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

oh, and as for the Marshal switch

he would be the winning pitcher when he was switched to left field, then the other pitcher came in then put him in again and he blew the lead, he gave up a tying run he would be the new pitcher of record but it wouldnt be a blown save because he wouldnt be up for a save because he would be the pitcher or record.. at least i think anyways

by CubsFanInWisconsin on Jul 30, 2009 2:14 AM CDT reply actions  

"we have enough left-handed outfielders..."

What we don’t have is a back up centerfielder or a defensive replacement for late innings.

Sam Fuld gives us this….

Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team

by carmen_fanzone on Jul 30, 2009 6:15 AM CDT reply actions  

exactly

if Fukudome got hurt, Bradley would be our centerfielder. Ugh.

by elgato on Jul 30, 2009 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

I vote for Chris Robinson

I haven’t been able to get a good read on when Geo is going to come off the DL. Even then, how long before he’s ready to play every day? I agree that Fuld gives us more flexibility in the outfield, but at this point, I think relief for Hill is more important. Saying all this, I’ve never seen Robinson play so I have no idea if his defense is ready for the majors.

by CubbieFaninOhio on Jul 30, 2009 6:59 AM CDT reply actions  

I vote for Fuld

Jake fox should be catching more games he used to be a catcher..The problem i see tho is who do we put in when we face a lefty pitcher..?? I think fulds a good hitter so we should be ok with him and fukadome..

by tazz34 on Jul 30, 2009 7:19 AM CDT reply actions  

We technically have a backup C - we don't have a backup CF...

If the Cubs don’t call up Fuld, then Milton Bradley or Micah Hoffpauir is the backup CF.

If you have an issue with the number of LH bats in the OF, then I would recommend sending Hoffpauir down. Then, you have two backup OF (one LH, one RH; one corner OF, one CF; one with power, one with speed) and you have a true backup C (if you call up Robinson to replace Hoffpauir.

Of course, in order to bring up Robinson, you’d have to add him to the 40-man roster. I’m guessing that the team would want to wait until after the trade deadline to make any such moves to make sure that they have enough roster space.

by SouthernCub on Jul 30, 2009 7:24 AM CDT reply actions  

if Fox is your backup catcher

you don’t really have a backup catcher

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill

by lookingdeadred on Jul 30, 2009 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Fox did just fine on Monday night

Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.

by section229beer on Jul 30, 2009 9:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Bradley

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Jul 30, 2009 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

Right, Bradley first ...

then Soriano, then Micah. That’s what I was saying.

by elgato on Jul 30, 2009 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

oh, sorry

I didn’t scroll up far enough.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Jul 30, 2009 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

robinson would have to be added

to the forty man roster. i’m more familiar with the guys at AA and below than robinson. if he is considered organizational filler (and if hendry has no deals brewing for a backstop), the addition shouldn’t be a problem. we should add one soon, i agree. fuld makes sense, though.

the save question. great ask. if marshall blows the save in the 11th, turns the ball over to stevens in the 11th, and stevens escapes, then marshall could blow a save for two different guys in the different innings. that would be the only way i could see it happening.

welcome, and nice first post.

by tim815 on Jul 30, 2009 7:30 AM CDT reply actions  

Exactly.

We’d have to purchase his contract, put him on the 40-man, and then when we’re done with him push him through waivers to get him back to AAA, so he’d be as good as gone.

Bringing Robinson up would essentially mean getting rid of him when Soto comes back (or whenever we need his roster spot).

by Wreckard on Jul 30, 2009 8:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

+1

Fuld’s already on the 40 man. And, we’ve used up 38 of the 40 spots. BJ Ryan will be #39 shortly.

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.

by SackMan on Jul 30, 2009 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

we're closer to 36+2 on the 40 man

cotts and chad fox are done for the year. if we hit 40+1, we can put either on the 60 day dl, thus deleting them from counting against the 40 count.

but, yeah. fuld. and acquire a catcher.

by tim815 on Jul 30, 2009 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

Miles is done too.

He’s there only in case of emergency, if the roster got to 40 as you say with some trades the Cubs could and would put him on the 60 day dl, thought I’d root for DFA.

by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 30, 2009 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

Why is Miles done?

I thought he was “rehabbing” in Iowa. They can only keep him there on a rehab assignment so long.

"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin

by davidalanu on Jul 30, 2009 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes that’s true, unless he suffers some sort of “setback” and has to go back on the DL or goes as part of a trade this week

"One time I went to a social gathering, I brought a bottle of Tanqueray and a shotgun and showed those motherf&#@ers the best time they ever had!"- Kenny Powers (Eastbound and Down)

"Why give 100% when 35 can still get you paid and laid."- Kenny Powers

by gridiron_assassin on Jul 30, 2009 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

pleeeeeeze

pleeeze, pleeeze. get someone in trade. or some used VHS tapes. or a broken transistor radio.

by tim815 on Jul 30, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Also... just another negative to Robinson

He’s right handed, and Clevenger bats from the left side. Theoritcally, I’d think if the Cubs were going to pick one, they’d pick Clevenger and start himoccasionaly vs Righties… since Hill’s splits are even worse batting left handed.

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.

by SackMan on Jul 30, 2009 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hmm Fuld Vs back up catcher ?

FULD!!!. Seriously no one here has been angrier that the Cubs do NOT have a real back up catcher and no one is a bigger supporter or Fuld but Robinson is NOT the answer. For one thing he is not even the main catcher in Iowa, Clevinger is. They have kind of alternated since Robinson came up a while back. Now if the Cubs had done the right thing and gotten Coste or picked up another actual MLB catcher then it would be different ( as in Hoff should go down for Fuld). The Cubs apparently believe Soto will be ready any day now but he had better be while Hill still has his knees left.
Fuld provides speed, great defense , hits for contact and can do stuff like EXECUTE A SACRIFICE. People obsess over the righty /lefty thing almost as much as Lou sometimes and it has been SO helpful this year. Anyway it is academic as unless the Cubs pull of a deal Fuld is the guy coming up.

"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux

by Doggie Stalker on Jul 30, 2009 7:30 AM CDT reply actions  

Plus...

Jessica LURVES HIM!

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Jul 30, 2009 7:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

True

but I do want an F*&^%%ing 2nd catcher. However Fuld should replace Johnson.

"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux

by Doggie Stalker on Jul 30, 2009 7:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Great first post!

Look, it’s a ballsy suggestion, but…

It’s hard to argue with success. I don’t know how or why, but the combo of Hill/Fox (98 percent Hill; 2 percent Fox) has worked at the catcher position.

The drop-off from Fukudome to Bradley/Soriano/Hoffpauir defensively is greater than the drop-off from Hill to Fox.

Plus, not for nothing, Fuld has earned it.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Jul 30, 2009 7:37 AM CDT reply actions  

but don't ya think

that on one of his pitches on tuesday that heilman had something go wrong with his left wrist? or sternum? or tricep? or inner ear? If he went on the DL, we could bring stevens back.

by tim815 on Jul 30, 2009 8:16 AM CDT reply actions  

It is very possible Stevens comes back today

to take Johnson’s spot and Atkins would get sent down over the weekend tobring upa position player or a trade is made.

by cubdreamer on Jul 30, 2009 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

There's no way they're going with 13 pitchers.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jul 30, 2009 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

I would only be for a day or so

and would help with bullpen, because Hart is more than likely only going to be able to pitch 5 or 6 innings.

by cubdreamer on Jul 30, 2009 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

Sorry Fuld was not in the game last night

Alas United Airlines refused to confirm if he was on a flight from Des Moines when I called (ok I am making that part up)
he will be at Wrigley today . Even if the Cubs made a trade today no one else gets to the ballpark by game time.

"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux

by Doggie Stalker on Jul 30, 2009 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

I actually believe you would have called United.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jul 30, 2009 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well even I know they don't give that information out over the phone

The fact that he was not in the game last night was good enough for me.

"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux

by Doggie Stalker on Jul 30, 2009 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm sure Sam Fuld uses an alias when he gets flights booked

like Fam Suld or Sam Fold or Bobby Scales or something like that.

Fukudometer: Created 3/31/08 Wrigley Debut 4/5/08 WGN and Japan TV Debut 4/6/08 Sun Times Debut: 4/20/08 Coffee Table Debut: 7/17/08 (http://www.wearecubsfans.com)

by Fukudometer on Jul 30, 2009 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

Or Mr. Doggie Stalker ?

Just kidding honest. If I picked players by their looks would I really think Greg Maddux was the greatest player of his generation ?

"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux

by Doggie Stalker on Jul 30, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

he's not coming Jessica.

At least, not today. Stevens was called up.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Jul 30, 2009 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

None of our regular relievers pitched yesterday

Even if Hart only goes a few innings, we should be fine.

by madcow256 on Jul 30, 2009 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

Here is what I would do

1. Demote Hoffpauir, call up Fuld
2. Acquire a rent-a-player right-handed hitting outfielder
3. Acquire a serviceable journeyman catcher

Cubs will win 79 to 83 games. Season has been over for weeks. St. Louis will eventually run away with this division. And you can print it. BLou (7/21/09)

by BLou on Jul 30, 2009 8:17 AM CDT reply actions  

There are some catchers available.

Rod Barajas and Kelly Shoppach are serviceable and probably available.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jul 30, 2009 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think one of the reasons the Cubs have NOT acquired back up catcher

is Hendry’s loyalty to Hill. If you acquire Shoppach, Barajas etc when Soto comes back someone has to go and Hill is probably the odd man out. Twisted I know but I think that is part of it.

"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux

by Doggie Stalker on Jul 30, 2009 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's an interesting and plausible explanation by you

And stupid baseball by Hendry

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Jul 30, 2009 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hill hasn't hurt us too much

He’s got a light bat, but what available backup catchers don’t? Hill also calls a good game and is liked by the pitching staff.

I don’t see any reason why Fox can’t get behind the plate a day like yesterday when we’re up by 9 in the 5th.

by madcow256 on Jul 30, 2009 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

How long can he catch every inning until his knees lock up?

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Jul 30, 2009 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

so far

most of every game.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Jul 30, 2009 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't know about that...

It’s a tough situation. If you have Coste available, which of course they don’t…much easier to say get the guy and don’t think about it. But with someone they are less sure of, if they spend enough money they end up keeping the guy and sending down Hill as could happen…that would defiintely be a bad situation.

To me there’s no one out there that would cost enough with cash or length of contract to worry about but stranger things sure have happened. I like Hill’s solid if not stellar defense but you don’t know how Soto is going to play out when he returns and another offensive catcher sure would be an asset if you can find one.

by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 30, 2009 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

They could afford to trade both.

They have Max Ramirez at AA (with a .932 OPS) and they just got Lou Marson from Philly, who is also highly rated. Shoppach shouldn’t stand in the way of either of them.

by Pat19 on Jul 30, 2009 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Neither has been in the majors yet

Bringing him up now would start the clock ticking on him. I’m not sure that would make sense to do that.

by Wreckard on Jul 30, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's Carlos Santana

Ramirez is with the Rangers.

And yes, I think Shoppach could be available. Wyatt Toregas looks like he could be a backup catcher in the majors, Santana looks like a future star, and Marson looks like a backup at worst. They have the depth, it’s just a question of them wanting to trade Shoppach.

I am like your Dan Aykroyd and biglow would be Jane, the ignorant slut. -Chad

Good ol' KO

by thecoolest on Jul 30, 2009 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

C'mon Wreckard, stop making sense

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill

by lookingdeadred on Jul 30, 2009 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

We don't need a rent-a-player for the outfield. Johnson wasn't exactly lighting it up at the plate.

All we need is for someone to replace his defense and versatility, Fuld can do that.

Seems to me at this point getting a catcher wouldn’t really make a big difference. Soto will be back soon, and then what do you do with the catcher who would most likely be out of options?

by thehat34 on Jul 30, 2009 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

why?

season’s over. What’s the point, amirite?

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Jul 30, 2009 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah!

Aren’t we still a 79-83 team?

by elgato on Jul 30, 2009 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

I would demote Fontenot,

release Miles and Heilman. Put So Taguchi on the 40 man roster and bring him along with Stevens.

try and trade for a left handed set-up arm while also trying to trade for Teahan if possible.

If Soto is not coming back in the next week or so they need to find a back-up catcher if they won’t use Fox there.

by cubdreamer on Jul 30, 2009 8:37 AM CDT reply actions  

He would be no more brutal than

Fotenot has, plus he can play third, first , Left and Right.

by cubdreamer on Jul 30, 2009 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

Fontenot's offense has been bad

Defense has been great again this year (at second) – UZR of 2.7.

by madcow256 on Jul 30, 2009 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

at second base in 2009

Fontenot has a UZR of… 2.7.

His UZR is lower for 3b (-0.8), but he was learning the position on the fly.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Jul 30, 2009 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Right

I don’t expect we’ll see much of Fontenot at 3B for the rest of the year. If Rami is off/out, Fox and Baker will probably take up his place.

by madcow256 on Jul 30, 2009 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

I would have no problem

demoting Hoffpauir but they need have some power off the bench from the left side. Unless they could acquire someone.

by cubdreamer on Jul 30, 2009 8:46 AM CDT reply actions  

A CF or a C?

Good question. Assuming they are right about Soto’s return being imminent, go with the CF (AKA Fuld).

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill

by lookingdeadred on Jul 30, 2009 9:09 AM CDT reply actions  

You make a valid point about Robinson

Because Fox’s bat would be a giant boost in the lineup and if nothing more, Lou can use him to pinch hit early in the game. This would be a temporary call up anyways because I think Soto is near returning (or so they continually say on TV).

Fuld can be called up after Soto is back on the roster with Blanco probably being sent down (well that’s more of a guess).

by ak123 on Jul 30, 2009 9:34 AM CDT reply actions  

It's time to re-evaluate the infield

We’re talking about backup catchers and backup OF but the fact is we have too many bench players who can play the infield.

Lee, Theriot and Ramirez will barely get a day off and even if they do, Fox or Hoff can play the corner positions.

That being said, I think Lou has to evaluate who isn’t helping the team out: Blanco, Baker, Hoffpauir or Fontenot. It’s a tough choice because no one out of that group is really standing out but it probably needs to be done.

by ak123 on Jul 30, 2009 9:40 AM CDT reply actions  

Hoff is the one who needs to go.

He has slumped badly at the plate and has no defensive value. The others all have important, defined roles…

Blanco – backup SS
Baker – backup 3B and RH platoon 2B. Has some power – career ISO around .200
Fontenot – LH platoon 2B

Fox is the first bat off the bench anyway, and Fontenot/Baker (whoever’s not playing) can do just as well pinch hitting as Hoffpauir.

by cubsforever on Jul 30, 2009 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

Al, it looks like we're going with 13 pitchers

Ugggh. I’ll split a hair with the catcher crowd. We have Hill, and Fox as an emergency catcher. Hopefully for one more week if Soto’s rehab is on schedule. The OF is hard to understand, though. That could lead to some ugly plays.

by Nibbles on Jul 30, 2009 10:26 AM CDT reply actions  

Just imagine the Ho-Ho consumption of an idle Geovany Soto

Maybe he can borrow a pair of Prince Fielder’s pants.

Cubs will win 79 to 83 games. Season has been over for weeks. St. Louis will eventually run away with this division. And you can print it. BLou (7/21/09)

by BLou on Jul 30, 2009 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

When valid analysis dries...

juvenile insults thrive.

This season IS over. -BLou 6/30/09

by Kansas25 on Jul 30, 2009 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

You seem to be obsessed with Soto's body weight. Is there some latent affection

that you have for the man that you really want to tell us about?

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jul 30, 2009 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

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