Cubs Acquire Grabow And Gorzelanny From Pirates
From the official press release:
The Chicago Cubs today acquired left-handed pitchers John Grabow and Tom Gorzelanny from the Pittsburgh Pirates for right-handed pitchers Kevin Hart and Jose Ascanio and Single-A Daytona infielder Josh Harrison.
Grabow will be added to the Cubs 25-man roster prior to tomorrow’s game at Florida. Gorzelanny, a native of Evergreen Park, Ill., will join Chicago’s Triple-A Iowa roster.
I know the rumors of this deal have been flying all day, and it was just made official. The only surprise to me is that Gorzelanny is headed to Iowa -- I was certain he'd be joining the starting rotation, replacing Hart until Ted Lilly comes back. Now, it appears the replacement would have to be Sean Marshall, who threw an inning today. In any case, they've got four days to figure it out.
Honestly, I'm happy with this deal. Hart did a good job in his four starts, but his control isn't the best and Gorzelanny, who is only six months older than Hart, had a 14-win season as a rotation starter two years ago for the Pirates. If he can recapture what he had that season -- and he's been very good at Indianapolis for the Pirates this year -- the Cubs got a good lefthanded starting pitcher for virtually nothing. He's a Chicago-area native (Evergreen Park) who, although he grew up a White Sox fan, has to be happy to be returning home to pitch. Jose Ascanio has a good arm, but the Cubs have lots of good similar arms, and though Josh Harrison has talent, I don't think he's any great loss to the system.
I would imagine that the Cubs will go with the extra relief pitcher until Hart's spot in the rotation comes up next Tuesday, then Gorzelanny could be recalled.
Use this post to discuss the trade; I'll also have a game recap up soon.
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Wow just got the word (thx Twitter)
Seems like a promising deal. I liked Kevin Hart but this deal has upside.
Hedge your bets
Buy your Harrison Jersey now. The Pirates will be world champs come 2015. They are building for the future.
The sun will shine in '69
I think I like this deal
I think this deal, more than most, is one that is hard to judge right now because of the players involved.
That said, I think I like this deal. I think for once (or at least rarely) Hendry sold high with Hart, who was performing over his head. I was a big fan of Ascanio, but we do have other power arms in the system, notably one we acquired in the offseason – Jeff Stevens. Harrison’s OK, but we’re obviously set at third.
Grabow is a solid lefty, something we really needed out of the bullpen. And I’ve always been a fan of Gorzelanny, who if he can turn it around could be the best player of the five.
This comment sums up my feelings pretty well...
Hart is selling high, Ascanio is good and has upside, but stevens fills the same role, and Harrison’s position is covered. Grabow will help and Gorz has huge upside. I like the trade a lot!
by Dayton Cubbie on Jul 30, 2009 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions
why jimbo
why
He can throw a fastball at 87MPH and make you look like a fool. He can spray lines drives to right field. He can put up with crappy offense and take the loss. He is Randy Wells. He is the most interesting pitcher in the world. Stay healthy, my friends.
Is it Hart, Asciano or the Single A guy I've never heard of the one you're going to miss the most?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 30, 2009 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions
its more of who he got
instead of who he let go
He can throw a fastball at 87MPH and make you look like a fool. He can spray lines drives to right field. He can put up with crappy offense and take the loss. He is Randy Wells. He is the most interesting pitcher in the world. Stay healthy, my friends.
by jesus christos on Jul 30, 2009 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions
you didn't want Grabow?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 30, 2009 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions
i did want him but then i looked at his splits v LH batters
lefties have a .275 BA against him
He can throw a fastball at 87MPH and make you look like a fool. He can spray lines drives to right field. He can put up with crappy offense and take the loss. He is Randy Wells. He is the most interesting pitcher in the world. Stay healthy, my friends.
by jesus christos on Jul 30, 2009 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions
meh...look at his K to walk ratio...
and in only 2 xtra base hits (1 2b and 1 HR) in 58 PA
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 30, 2009 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions
ehh
well see…
He can throw a fastball at 87MPH and make you look like a fool. He can spray lines drives to right field. He can put up with crappy offense and take the loss. He is Randy Wells. He is the most interesting pitcher in the world. Stay healthy, my friends.
by jesus christos on Jul 30, 2009 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions
his OBP and SLG are almot identical for RH and LH batters...
he’s seemed to have just bad luck or bad defense against LH battters.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 30, 2009 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions
BA is a dying stat
unless you ask me, in which case it’s a dead stat.
by northernsails on Jul 30, 2009 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Indeed.
He’s a relief pitcher so there’s the whole sample size issue. His K/BB over his career is terrific against lefties and crummy against righties, but his BABIP against lefties (in 544 PA) is high… so I’d expect he’s had a bit of bad luck against left-handed batters that’s not particularly likely to continue.
exactly
grabow is miserable and gorzelanny’s worse. gorzelanny had one good half of major league baseball with a 3.10 in the first half 07. second half he was at 5.01 with a 1.62 whip and then we all saw what happened last year as the cubs did their best to get his era close to seven with a 6.66 era and 1.80 whip.
i like harts stuff and harrison actually looks pretty solid, hit .337 and .319 in 609 minor league at bats. this was just a pointless trade.
Soriano's got his groove back...hopefully.
Do you like Hart's 18 walks in 27 innings?
Good arm, but no control.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Don't you know that every Cubs prospect
is awesome, especially when they don’t play for the Cubs anymore
by LT on Jul 30, 2009 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I'm still missing
Hee Sop Choi, Bobby Hill and so many of our can’t miss prospects that we’ve squandered.
Baseball is too much of a sport to be a business and too much of a business to be a sport.
William Wrigley Jr
by bubbamike the one and only on Jul 30, 2009 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions
I live near Peoria
and that Single A guy is “The Man”
"Cubs Win!" "Yes, Sir!" - Pat and Ron, June 12, 2008, Walk off HBP, bottom of the 11th
#8719 on the Cubs Season Ticket waiting list.
by Charlemagne on Jul 30, 2009 11:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Will Lou actaully use Grabow as a LOOGY?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 30, 2009 5:02 PM CDT reply actions
Nope.
He’ll probably use Marshall still on the off-days when it’s not his turn in the rotation. Afterall, he can’t pitch to more than one batter. Why waste a good thing? :-p
s/
by CubsWin!Oregon on Jul 30, 2009 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions
I always liked Harrison
I thought he could be a fine utility player. Ascanio is the only guy in this deal that I cared about giving up. An OK trade, but if Grabow is a Type A (and we offer arb, which is a big if) and we get picks for him, this deal will look much better.
I am like your Dan Aykroyd and biglow would be Jane, the ignorant slut. -Chad
Harrison a fine utility player?
When? Three or four years from now?
As noted above, this is selling high on players who will probably never be better. Lou has two lefties in the pen now (unless Marshall starts). This is a very good deal.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
How old is Harrison?
He was a 2008 draft pick.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Just turned 22.
I lliked this deal. Sold high on both Hart and Harrison. Got a LOOGY, and possibly another LH starter in Gorz.
Nice job Jim.
by Tangled Up In Blue on Jul 30, 2009 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Harrison, at the ceiling of his potential, could be a Chone Figgins type
I enjoyed following him this year.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Possibly, but...
… as I said, when? Three years from now?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
We could have multiple WS Trophies by then.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 30, 2009 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions
And I'll be the Nobel Prize winner.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
i challange you to a boxing match
for it
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
And then the Pirates will trade us Harrison for more prospects.
You never “lose” prospects when you trade them to the Pirates – you just stash them there for a while. If they pan out and actually want to get paid, Pittsburgh will immediately trade them back for more 20 year olds. And the circle of life continues.
I’m looking forward to adding Clement and Alderson in a few years.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jul 30, 2009 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
hahaha
sad, yet true.
I still believe that Pirate fans need jerseys with velcro name plates
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Is there such a thing?
I thought a Pirates fan was like a unicorn or Lockness Monster. Things you heard about but never seen.
The sun will shine in '69
no, they exist
on bucs dugout, where i saw the following exchange, regarding the yet unfinalized trade.
maybe vitters for gorz/grabow
i don’t know that we would come out ahead in that one.
ascanio was a chip
if we’re gonna get used to stevens. and guzman. and marmol. we had ascanio to move.
i miss harrison, but if either pitcher we traded for does well, it’s a solid win.
Ascanio
Has never turned out to be the pitcher that we or Atlanta hoped he would be. He has already hit the high point of his trajectory.
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
Exactly
Great job by Jim of selling high. If for some reason he does pan out, as pointed out above, the Cubs have plenty of over strong armed righties in the system.
by Tangled Up In Blue on Jul 30, 2009 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions
let's hope this gets us over the hump and a third Central Crown
…and a LONG run in October!
"If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong." - a well known stock market guru
The Cubs needed pitching help
They got it. Best of luck to Hart and Ascanio.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Seems like this is all about getting Marshall into the rotation.
Hart has more value than Gorzelanny, I mean, it’s been quite a while since he’s been good. He’s like Rich Hill II. Grabow is just a guy and hasn’t even been all that good against lefties. The fetish for lefties has killed us this season.
Can't compare Gorzelanny and Hill
Hill completely lost his control and couldn’t throw strikes at ANY level
Gorzelanny has an ERA in the 2’s at Triple A
Gorzelanny won 14 games in the major leagues in 2007...
… with a 1.39 WHIP and 3.88 ERA, very good numbers. He was awful last year (the Cubs pounded him a couple times). He appears to have recovered that 2007 level at Triple-A. Well worth the risk, as he is almost the same age as Hart.
The Cubs gave up nothing they really need, and got some pitchers who could be very good. This is a good deal.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Gorz has always had a decent WHIP.
the only good WHIP that Hill has had the last few years is the one he bought in Mexico.
"If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong." - a well known stock market guru
Plus, Gorz is from the Chicago area.
Maybe a change of scenery and the return home will do him good. Pitching for the Pirates must be soul-crushing after a while.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
this isn't Pittsburgh!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 30, 2009 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions
could be another deal working beneath the surface
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
I agree w/Al
Hill and Ascaino were the two guys in that “26-32” portion of the 40-man roster who were the most tradable as there were others in the “33-40” portion who can step into their place. Meanwhile, Gorz. will probably stay at AAA through the end of the season, will give them a long man in September, and is under club control for the mix for the #5 starter next year.
This also probably means the end of the BJ Ryan festivities, as his deal was that he has to be promoted within 15 days or he’s gone.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Jul 30, 2009 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Not necessarily.
He could replace Samardzija.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yesterday
You said he still needed to learn one pitch.
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Sir Winston Churchill
No I didn't
he’s got 1 1/2 pitches.
A decent fastball and sort of a splitter. He needs a change or something. He’s never going to survive a lineup more than once without it.
She says he has 1.5 pitches
any time his name is mentioned on the site. She’s like BLou when it comes to him.
DEJESUS!!!
Well Blou has 1.5 opinions
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
I think you were kidding when you said it
It was funny at the time, but not so much anymore. :)
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Sir Winston Churchill
It was during yesterday's game thread.
Not annoying, but humorous.
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Sir Winston Churchill
might have been funny
but it’s still true. He doesn’t have two pitches.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 30, 2009 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions
And if BJ actually turns it around...
….that is one VERY GOOD Bullpen.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Jul 30, 2009 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions
save heilman, of course
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Jul 30, 2009 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Why does Lou have such a quick trigger finger for the
dog house for guys like Stevie Ire, but he shows so much patience for guys like Howry and Heilman? Is he a LOOGY-bigot? He seems to keep these troubled righties on a long leash when he has so many more to choose from.
Let’s see what he does with this batch of lefty arms…
"If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong." - a well known stock market guru
The President of the Aaron Heilman Sucks Fanclub approves of this here message
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
He had no patience for Wuertz either.
There are just guys he likes and guys he doesn’t. It seems like first impressions stick for a while for Lou.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
heilman would be ok
for when we’re down seven
I'm not sure that Lou would know what to do with TWO lefties in the pen
Plus, we have to bring David Patton back someday…. :)
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Jul 30, 2009 5:46 PM CDT up reply actions
i think he might have a severe blister problem in a couple weeks.
he’s ours as long as we don’t option him
someday is September
We can bring him back when rosters expand but he served his 90 days and he is ours to keep.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 30, 2009 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions
I thought somebody posted that he had to come back in 30
as part of the rule V deal, so they’d have to bring him back in early August for a few days and then DL him again to September 1.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Jul 31, 2009 6:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Is the thought
to bring up BJ Ryan and put Grabow in the pen and move Marshall into the starting rotation again to replace Hart? Seems like solid moves to me.
"Respect" ~ Ryne Sandberg
I like Gorzelanny
But it’s also worth noting that Indianapolis is a notorious pitchers park (think 408 to left-center and 380 to right-center).
He’s going to top out around 92 and sit around 89-90 with a solid changeup. When he’s keeping the ball down and hitting his spots, he’s solid. He’s going to need to soak up as much knowledge from Ted Lilly as is humanly possible when he reaches Chicago.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
I like it
Hart has a live arm- too live at times and he did his job here this season. Best of luck to him in Pittsburgh- save for when he pitches against the Cubs.
The only downside as I see it right now is that we are going to have to find additional uses for “The Employee” jerseys
Good deal...
Getting Marshall back into the rotation is a good move. Selling high on Hart is a good move. Ascanio may pan out, but it won’t be with the Pirates.
I think I speak for everyone here when I say, "Wait, what the hell are you talking about?"
Anyone else think we may have traded Hart so we could bat against him later this season?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 30, 2009 5:04 PM CDT reply actions
sure beats
Giving up Hak Lee, Hoffpauir and Stevens like BLou so confidently predicted.
Or Jay Jackson for that manner
I would have hated to part with him
by Dayton Cubbie on Jul 30, 2009 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly.
They really gave up no one of note. Thanks to Kevin Hart for doing a nice job filling in.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yeah
Ascaino could be a good late inning guy but if you get Gorzelanny fixed you have a decent back end starter.
Good Trade.
Agreed.
I cringed when Jay Jackson’s name started being tossed around. The Cubs traded away three players who either didn’t fit into their plans (Harrison, Hart) or are easily replaced with what they already have in the system (Ascanio).
What will be interesting, and ultimatley determine if this was a good deal or not, is how Lou uses both Grabow and Gorze. It has the potential to be a really good deal for the Cubs.
by Tangled Up In Blue on Jul 30, 2009 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow, that is insanely high
Even with a low sample size (I think I read 60 PA earlier). Drop that BABIP to just .300 and he’s pretty good against lefties.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Jul 30, 2009 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions
He's a reliever.
Tiny sample size… .394 BABIP in that many PAs is not unusual, there’s just so much noise there. For his career his BABIP against lefties is .351, but even that’s only 544 PA so it could still be flukey. He strikes out tons of lefties and doesn’t give up many walks or XBHs to them, so it’s not like they’re just on top of everything he throws. Maybe the defense has been playing them to pull but they’re going oppo… but I wouldn’t be surprised if it signified nothing.
He has been
pitching for the Pirates, not the best defense there is, so that is likely a factor
"Respect" ~ Ryne Sandberg
Saw Gorz start in Indy Monday
And he looked good. 6+ IP only 2 ER 7 H 1 BB 6 SO. As Al mentioned he has been pitching very well in AAA and could be a LOGGY with LH batting .159 against him
"The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love." ~Bryant Gumbel
Anyone not really thrilled...
About moving Marshall back into the rotation? He wasn’t very good as a starter this year, and he’s been great in his new role lately.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Jul 30, 2009 5:09 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Gorzelanny may wind up in the rotation.
We’ll see.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
with Hart
gone now I would have to think he will be up soon
I would think they'd keep the bullpen guys until Tuesday, when Hart would have started...
…. Gorzelanny could be recalled then.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I agree Al.
When was his last start? No need to bring up a guy who just pitched.
Gorzelanny>Hart?
Grabow>Ascanio+kid?
I’m still on the ledge.
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
Get off the ledge...
This helps the Cubs in a lot of ways. They got a lot of positives out of Hart. Only time will tell if it is a big win or a big nothing. That is a lot of time to be on the ledge.
I think I speak for everyone here when I say, "Wait, what the hell are you talking about?"
Get off the ledge
It is great that Hart really delivered on his last couple of starts this year — it reminds me of the way Sean Gallagher did that last year.
Do you know where Sean G. is now? Just traded from Oakland to San Diego. The main piece in the Harden deal for Oakland, and they have given up on him already.
Did you watch much of Hart or Ascanio pitching? Did it really give you a warm feeling, in either case, that we need more of this?
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
my feeling with hart was
he could be an option for our 7th starter in 2010. if harden leaves.
I'm glad Hart
could be a piece in getting something.
But I liked Ascanio, or what little I did see of him.
But if Gorz can learn from Lilly about how to pitch as a lefty in the bigs it could be a really good trade.
Actually the main piece was Josh Donaldson
No idea how he is doing.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 30, 2009 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Donaldson?
Do you mean Josh Harrison?
by northernsails on Jul 31, 2009 12:05 AM CDT up reply actions
Josh Donaldson was a key piece in the Rich Harden deal, not this one.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Cannot compare any two pitchers in that way
Especially since Grabow is a pen guy and Gallagher was a starter.
Seriously, I like them getting Grabow. I liked Ascanio’s upside, but for the here and now (Cubs are in a playoff race, helloooo), Grabow is the better player.
I wish Jimbo could get Beimel as well, or package Grabow with some young talent to screw the Nationals over.
by northernsails on Jul 30, 2009 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Sorry Al,
That was supposed to say “or packaged Ascanio”
by northernsails on Jul 30, 2009 11:59 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd like to see Marshall and Gorz both get 3 IP in the next start.
And go from there.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
I am thrilled
Marshall WAS good as a starter when he was used there the past couple years. He didn’t blow people away or bring no-hitter stuff, but you always knew what you were getting from him. Really solid end of the rotation guy, which is what he will asked to be (for a brief period of time)
Marshall was good for all but one start.
Take out his last start this year and he had a 3.79 ERA & 1.29 WHIP in 40 IP, with 29 Ks.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
I hate Tony La Russa because he's credited with having invented the LOOGY.
And I thunk it is a waste of a roster spot. Advanced metrics suggest that rather than using a LHP or RHP in a certain situation due to RH or LH, it is most advantageous to use, simply enough, the best pitcher available.
Dan
PS – Read THE BOOK for more on this.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jul 30, 2009 5:09 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Another LaRussa Invention: 1-Inning Closer
I give Dennis Eckersley a lot of credit for being the great closer he was. However, LaRussa was the first manager to use that one inning closer philosophy a lot. I know Lee Smith got his share of 1-inning saves with the Cubs before Eck ever got to Oakland., but Eck seemed to be the first closer who got the majority of his saves in 1-inning stints. Again, I’m not taking anything away from Eck, but the closer role got redefined by LaRussa.
I would redefine the save with the following conditions:
- Not be the winning pitcher, have your team win, record at least the last three outs of the game, after entering the game, regardless of the count, with the tying run on base, at bat, or on deck.
- Not be the winning pitcher, have your team win, record the last one or two outs of the game, after entering the game, regardless of the count, with the tying run on base or at bat.
Okay, some saves would still be wimpy under those conditions. The save chances would be harder than they are now. There’s not much chance the save will be redefined. That “1 inning save entering the game with a lead of no more than three runs” rule needs to go. I just thought I would throw that out there.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
just don't mess with
the hold. i detest that stat.
enter with a one run lead. walk. single. lineout to third. walk. leave. get hold.
i don't mind the quality start so much,
but if a starter goes more than 6 and gives up his 4th ER in the eighth, he loses his QS. that’s crap.
Quality Starts
I could go for 7+ IP while giving up 3 runs or less being a quality start. That would get the ERA under 4.00. However, the majority of starters don’t go at least 7 innings these days.
If you only pitch 6 innings, you should not be allowed to give up more than 2 runs and be credited with a quality start, but baseball will survive just fine with the current definition of save and quality start. I just love griping about it.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
GRUMBLE.
1. A starter with a 4.50 ERA gives a team with a decent offense and ’pen a decent shot to win.
2. A pitcher that has quality starts in most of his appearances gives his team at least a decent shot to win most of the time.
That is what quality starts measure. It doesn’t mean ZOMG CY YOUNG. It doesn’t say all that much about the individual game. It means you didn’t get shelled. A pitcher that does it most of the time will have an ERA better than 4.50.
Think about it like a hitting streak. In a typical game (forgetting the silliness of ABs and BA) you have 4 ABs. Getting a hit once means you bat .250. So are long hitting streaks mediocre because you only have to bat .250? No! It means you’ve avoided the dreaded o-fer for a couple weeks, and you’re probably hitting well over .250 in the streak. If a pitcher has 6 quality starts in a row, or in all but three starts in a season, that’s pretty good, which is why announcers bother to mention it.
by aldimond on Jul 30, 2009 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Right.
The ERA of 4.50 doesn’t really speak to the “quality”. All it means is that your team has gotten to the 7th inning allowing three runs or less. Most teams with a good offense and decent bullpen — as noted above — should win those games.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Tony LaRussa invented the internet
Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
And kept Zima in the market for years
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
Don't know but he may tweet
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
Anti-LOOGY
You state an obvious point which needs to be stated. Who would you rather have facing a LH Hitter in a late game crucial situation..A generic LOOGY like Will Ohman/Grabow/Remlinger, or Carlos Marmol?
I think the LOOGY fetish developed because Big League managers like to think they employ great tactical skills in their jobs, when in fact the basic task of a manager is to put the best 9 players on the field and then spit and scratch in the corner of the dugout.
great deal
hart was good but grabow and gorzelanny have more major league experience. i think this trade gets the cubs into the playoffs. if not the division at least the wild card.
al
was this pretty close to ‘the trade’ from deep goat?
i was thinking a 'vet' might be involved
cough, aaron somebody, cough
I think "unconditionally released" is the best position for that guy.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Was Duke
the guy we would’ve been excited about? Because I think these guys could help us, but I wouldn’t classify myself as excited about it.
DEJESUS!!!
doesnt make sense
trading away 2 relievers…when they couldve kept mike wuertz this offseason
lou didn't know how to use
wuertz.
and all those ground balls would’ve found their way through our sieve of a MIF
by Allie on Jul 30, 2009 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wuertz folded like a cheap lawn chair under pressure. Let's move on...
How can you say this “doesn’t make sense?” Hart is at best a marginal #5 on the Cubs and Ascanio can’t stay on the big league team. Both Gs have a chance to add meaningful value to this team THIS YEAR. We shall see—but to say it doesn’t make sense? It is a risk worth taking, I think.
"If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong." - a well known stock market guru
Exactly
He was more lucky than good in his starts.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Jul 30, 2009 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Jay Jackson was pulled from his start with no reason..
Something else is up?
Milton Bradley will win the 2009 NL MVP
by Milton's Gameboard on Jul 30, 2009 5:10 PM CDT reply actions
promoted
He can throw a fastball at 87MPH and make you look like a fool. He can spray lines drives to right field. He can put up with crappy offense and take the loss. He is Randy Wells. He is the most interesting pitcher in the world. Stay healthy, my friends.
by jesus christos on Jul 30, 2009 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions
dude...around here we say rec'd
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 30, 2009 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Haha
Terrific.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." ~Alvin Dark
by DamonBerryhillsMitt on Jul 30, 2009 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think they
pull you in the middle of a start to be promoted, do they??
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." ~Alvin Dark
by DamonBerryhillsMitt on Jul 30, 2009 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions
I GUESS JIMBO TRADED FOR LIND
He can throw a fastball at 87MPH and make you look like a fool. He can spray lines drives to right field. He can put up with crappy offense and take the loss. He is Randy Wells. He is the most interesting pitcher in the world. Stay healthy, my friends.
by jesus christos on Jul 30, 2009 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions
lind halladay scooter for miles scales and jackson
sounds buena to me
He can throw a fastball at 87MPH and make you look like a fool. He can spray lines drives to right field. He can put up with crappy offense and take the loss. He is Randy Wells. He is the most interesting pitcher in the world. Stay healthy, my friends.
by jesus christos on Jul 31, 2009 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions
cool
but god we are assholes for trading Hart right after he got us a win…haha.
did they really?
hahahahaha….i wonder if he was still in the dugout.
by HardForharden on Jul 30, 2009 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Like I said before
Hart was given two choice before the game:
1) Get the “W” and we ship you to Pittsburg
2) Get the “L” and we ship you to DC
Get a no decision and we make you ride in a car to Pittsburg and DC with BLou!
The sun will shine in '69
I agree
I think its a good trade, but its pretty cold to do that to the kid right after he picks up the win
"I'll tell you what's helped me my entire life. I look at baseball as a game. It's something where people can go out, enjoy and have fun. Nothing more." - Harry Caray
Hart can have Onedec on his backside now!
"If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong." - a well known stock market guru
I don't know.
Hart’s likely to get more major league playing time with Pitt. Could work out to be something of a promotion, even if for a sucky team.
he's going to have the opportunity
to be a regular starter. Even if Pittsburgh sucks, he’ll be able to build a real career.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 30, 2009 7:43 PM CDT up reply actions
we gave up...
Look at it this way, the player we gave up originated from Freddie Bynum, Jacque Jones and Will Ohman.
by speed skater on Jul 30, 2009 5:11 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Pittsburgh Pirates...
Cubs AAA affiliate since 2003…
by TeddyThunder on Jul 30, 2009 5:12 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
i
wouldn’t get too cocky. The Pirates have made some good trades this year and added a good deal of young talent.
i think
he is saying that their team takes all of our young prospects for their stars…aka Aramis Ramirez, Randall Simon, Jason Kendall. lol
by HardForharden on Jul 30, 2009 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually, Kendall came from Oakland
for Rob Bowen.
"In an ocean or in a glass, cool water is such a gas."
by markleonette on Jul 30, 2009 5:46 PM CDT up reply actions
the Pirates do this every 2-3 yrs...and proceed to sell it all at contract time again, 2-3 yrs later
"If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong." - a well known stock market guru
Now they have no one left with big contracts like that.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
but in 2-3 yrs, when these young guys come up and start to produce, the Bucs
will have to decide who to keep and sign or who to trade. Same old story. Maybe it takes 3-5 yrs for some of these guys, but eventually, you gotta lock guys up or move ’em.
"If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong." - a well known stock market guru
But as of now...
… when they come to Chicago in two weeks, they will basically put a Triple-A team on the field.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
you just guaranteed them a series win Al....thanks.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 30, 2009 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions
True, Hart is another of those mysterious really young guys the Cubs have never
faced…
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
You think that problem is a scouting issue?
I tend to think they should be about average against first starters, but they seem to underperform.
Probably, I've always chalked it to overconfidence and lack of data.
Facing Hart will be telling. After years as a Cub in the minors and his relief appearance and starts for Lou, there should be no lack of data. We’ll see if the other times it’s scouting.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Who has more games left with them, us or the Cardinals/Brewers?
If we’ve played more so far, than this actually hurts us.
True.
Looking over their roster, most of it started the year in Indianapolis.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
And the Yankees', and the Red Sox's, and the...
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
Today's pitching matchup. LOL.
Nice job… now pack your bags! Both of you.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
I wonder how many times that's ever happened...
the starters of a game from both teams being moved off the team on the same day as the game.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 30, 2009 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions
It's possibly a baseball first.
"Booze, broads, and bullshit. If you got all that, what else do you need?" Harry Caray
by CubbieintheSouth on Jul 30, 2009 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Contract Status...
Anyone know the contract status’ of both Gorz and Grabow? How long are they under our control now
Pretty sure Grabow is a FA after this season.
Not sure on Gorz.
by Tangled Up In Blue on Jul 30, 2009 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Contracts
Grabow is a FA after the season and is on track to be a Type A FA so he would garner 2 picks if the Cubs offer Arbitration. Gorzelanny will be Arb eligible for the first time after this season, so he is under team control for 3 more seasons.
by circuitclout on Jul 30, 2009 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Did we trade Ohman for
Ascanio?
"Booze, broads, and bullshit. If you got all that, what else do you need?" Harry Caray
by CubbieintheSouth on Jul 30, 2009 5:14 PM CDT reply actions
Yeah
Ohman and Infante if I remember right
by Dayton Cubbie on Jul 30, 2009 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah I forgot about Infante.
"Booze, broads, and bullshit. If you got all that, what else do you need?" Harry Caray
by CubbieintheSouth on Jul 30, 2009 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions
As noted...
… Gorzelanny is only six months older than Kevin Hart.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yeah
I just never really realized he was still that young. He’s been on that bad pirates team for so long.
Not sold on the trade… but we’re now definitely more LH. That should make Lou happy.
Ohman and Infante
We traded Ohman and Infante. We got Infante from Detroit for Jones. Hart was from Bynum.
Infante was traded for Ascanio...
… so in essence, he’s part of this deal too.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Soooooooo
We still have no backup catcher or power hitting outfielders.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jul 30, 2009 5:15 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Our outfileders have been going off
"Booze, broads, and bullshit. If you got all that, what else do you need?" Harry Caray
by CubbieintheSouth on Jul 30, 2009 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Do you trust Soriano, Fukudome, and Bradley to hit the rest of the season like they are right now?
I sure as hell do not.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
not trust Dan....EXPECT.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 30, 2009 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Why not
Fukudome is probably a bit hot for what he really is, but Soriano is going to hit for his statistical average like he does every season, and Milton is also returning to his statistical averages.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
absolutely.
Soriano will likely streak some more, but I think things are really starting to click.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 30, 2009 7:45 PM CDT up reply actions
yep
no power hitting outfielders….i mean kosuke didn’t have 2 extra base hits today, and bradley didn’t have a homer….and soriano hasn’t hit like 5 homers in the last like 12 games no big deal though.
by HardForharden on Jul 30, 2009 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Woo-hoo!
I love it! We’re 100 games in, and this is both 1% and 12% of the entire season; great sample sizes.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
What do their
historical averages say?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 30, 2009 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Milton hits his WORST in August, September, and October.
And Soriano does his typical hot/cold/hot/cold thingie.
Dan
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Well...considering how bad Milton has been in April, May and June.....
perhaps he’s just going against the norm this year.
Soriano going hot/cold/hot/cold might be a little easier to live with now that he’s batting 6th.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 30, 2009 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions
And last year Bradley had a
.356 .467 .559 1.026 line in August.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
last year Bradley was a decent hitter all year
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 30, 2009 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions
okay
.315 .413 .685 1.098 in 2007 in August. I hate using career stats sometimes when you’re talking about a player that has played in the majors really long.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
don't let facts get in the way of an emotional argument
"If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong." - a well known stock market guru
HA!
LAST YEAR! Don’t make me put my finger down my throat. What a joke. The #1 offense in baseball, with a MVP-caliber Josh Hamilton, I have no idea how the hell Milton parlayed his 2008 season into this $30,000,000 contract. He only played 126 games and most of that was at DH.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
So you're mad about his contract then..
then say that, but I was pointing out that you claim he doesn’t hit well in August when the last 2 years he has done good in August. But if you want to move the goal posts around…
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
His
Career
Averages
Clearly
Show
A
Significant
Decline
In
August
September
and
October
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Wow you must be really angry to hit enter all those times...hehe
I guess by declining you mean except the last 2 years.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
DO YOU WANT HIM TO USE CAPS LOCK!!!!!!!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 30, 2009 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions
No,
but I’m being asked to use larger sample sizes, or career averages. Those are both of these things. It doesn’t get any more basic than “How does Milton hit in the 2nd half?”
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
you're both right...can we move on?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 30, 2009 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions
We're 100 games in and you want me to concede my Milton-bashing now?
Hell no, don’t leave me now, SWL, don’t you do it!
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Look, can we please only stick to bashing the guy for what he's done....
not for what he’s yet to do or not do in the next 3 months? That’s taking it a little too far.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 30, 2009 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions
And I'm saying for the last 2 years he has hit well in August.
It was the same argument I heard about Sori and his leadoff thing. Those were back 4 and 5 years ago too.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
aka: HCACSASDIASAO
update the BCB Dictionary Dan.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 30, 2009 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
rec'd
"Booze, broads, and bullshit. If you got all that, what else do you need?" Harry Caray
by CubbieintheSouth on Jul 30, 2009 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Promoted
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 30, 2009 7:45 PM CDT up reply actions
He's having a down year compared to his last few
But how much would we have to give up to acquire a player who’s going to do better than that? I love to imagine the Cubs have unlimited resources (both prospects and money) but that’s simply not the case.
What???
"Booze, broads, and bullshit. If you got all that, what else do you need?" Harry Caray
by CubbieintheSouth on Jul 30, 2009 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Do you really expect Bradley to finish the year with numbers that could be so easily replaced
with our current roster and financial limitations? He might not be worth the $10mil we are paying him this year, but that doesn’t mean we can easily pick someone up who is.
Well July usually has
90 and 100 degree temps but that hasn’t happened. Maybe Milton is like the weather this year and be hot when he normally isn’t.
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
it's called
slumps….they just all happened at the same time.
by HardForharden on Jul 30, 2009 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions
You want a better sample size?
How about their careers?
by GoBackToSchaumburg on Jul 30, 2009 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
me too
He can throw a fastball at 87MPH and make you look like a fool. He can spray lines drives to right field. He can put up with crappy offense and take the loss. He is Randy Wells. He is the most interesting pitcher in the world. Stay healthy, my friends.
by jesus christos on Jul 30, 2009 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions
610 Sports here in KC was talking about the Cubbies today.
They have an interest in Sam Fuld. Prob a good hour of talk like this.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Talking Teahen a lot.
I think their best bargaining chip (and 610 Sports agreed) is Jokim Soria. If that guy was in NY or LA he’d be on SportsCenter all the time.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
No.
It was just the guys talking about players they knew on our team. They know we would like Teahen, and they’d like Fuld. I called in but couldn’t get through.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
thanks for the try
royals gm is an idiot. dealt for yunel
Royals
Any word on what other teams, or what the else the Royals are looking for in return?
by Tangled Up In Blue on Jul 30, 2009 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions
A major-league ready OF, preferrably CF.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Thanks.
I would be surprised if Jim could pull of a trade for Teahan centered around Fuld.
That would be great, though.
by Tangled Up In Blue on Jul 30, 2009 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions
we could get Patterson and flip him
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 30, 2009 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions
We could sign C.Pat, trade for E.Pat
and flip them for….
I can’t even keep the joke running. It’s too painful…
Although, I heard the Yankees are interested in C. Patterson. A sign and trade deal for Hughes?
by Tangled Up In Blue on Jul 30, 2009 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions
i think yankee stadium is the only place patterson can boost his stats
He can throw a fastball at 87MPH and make you look like a fool. He can spray lines drives to right field. He can put up with crappy offense and take the loss. He is Randy Wells. He is the most interesting pitcher in the world. Stay healthy, my friends.
by jesus christos on Jul 30, 2009 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions
BUT WHAT ABOUT FULD FOR LIND
He can throw a fastball at 87MPH and make you look like a fool. He can spray lines drives to right field. He can put up with crappy offense and take the loss. He is Randy Wells. He is the most interesting pitcher in the world. Stay healthy, my friends.
by jesus christos on Jul 30, 2009 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions
I thought
Miles Freel Baker is a mini Dero?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 30, 2009 7:50 PM CDT up reply actions
id take teahen for fuld in a heartbeat
He can throw a fastball at 87MPH and make you look like a fool. He can spray lines drives to right field. He can put up with crappy offense and take the loss. He is Randy Wells. He is the most interesting pitcher in the world. Stay healthy, my friends.
by jesus christos on Jul 30, 2009 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions
I mentioned him many times last winter
and he’s had an OK season.
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
Where did you see that Soto will be back in a week?
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
Uhhh
hold on. gotta find it.
Cubs catcher Geovany Soto may begin a rehab assignment as early as Friday, and could rejoin the team next week.
Soto has been on the disabled list since July 11 because of a left oblique strain. General manager Jim Hendry said Thursday the team’s medical staff talked to Soto on Wednesday to get an update and hope to get him into a game to continue his rehab.
I like the deal even if Grabow is just an average addition to the BP.
But if it means that Heilman moves just a little further down the line in the bullpen then I love the deal.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
tho that does include his not so good time in Seattle
still a nice name to see him compared to though.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
then scroll back up to see his splits against the Cardinals and pitching in Busch.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 30, 2009 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions
I guess Steve Brightmann is gonna be pissed off.
Grabow was his favorite Pirate. What a lonely life that guy must be leading now.
"If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong." - a well known stock market guru
Unless Hendry traded Hart for Halladay
someone would say he got ripped off. Who cares about Hart? Gallagher was a better prospect and look what he has done.
by rlpete on Jul 30, 2009 5:18 PM CDT reply actions 4 recs
Oh Pete,
Thank you. You just talked me off the ledge. That was the best rationalization. Thank you and rec’d.
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
thirded
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 30, 2009 7:46 PM CDT up reply actions
+1
I made the same comment way above. Oakland has already given up on Gallagher, and I found his starts last year less nerve-wracking than Hart’s this year. Did you see the two hit batsmen in the same inning early in the game today?
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
Let's hope we got the same deal like before
I’ll take another A-Ram for Pittsburg.
The sun will shine in '69
all of Pittsburgh?
that’s gonna deplete our minor league system something fierce…
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 30, 2009 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Nah, their collecting Iowa Cubs and Peoria Chiefs
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
This is a good deal
But even at the very worst, it’s a push. But Gorzelanny has some upside to it, plus having a bonafide lefty in the pen (not Marshall masquerading as a LOOGY) is a plus.
Well done, Mr. Hendry.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 30, 2009 5:23 PM CDT reply actions
Bucs
Wasn’t the company line after the Bucs traded McClouth along the lines of "this isn’t a repeat of previous years. We’re just making room for McCutchen and we have every intention of being competitive with the guys we have"?
What a difference a few months make. I truly do feel sorry for Bucs fans. What has been done to that franchise is a shame.
by Tangled Up In Blue on Jul 30, 2009 5:25 PM CDT reply actions
I think they're going about this the right way
Not pussy-footing around. They’re going to get rid of everybody, practically, and start over. Maybe this time they’ll get some results.
Like the GM said yesterday after he dealt Wilson and Sanchez, it’s not like he’s breaking up the ’27 Yankees.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 30, 2009 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Track record
Like the GM said yesterday after he dealt Wilson and Sanchez, it’s not like he’s breaking up the ’27 Yankees.
True, but the Bucs have done this every couple of years. The 2009 Pirates, arguably, could have been turned into contenders by 2011/2012 with a couple of moves that left the nucleus in tack. They gutted the franchise again, and set themselves back even further.
by Tangled Up In Blue on Jul 30, 2009 5:32 PM CDT up reply actions
True
but this appears to be a gutting with the intent of restocking the farm system a bit, which had been decimated during the Littlefield era. In other words, they were trying to build a mansion on a crappy foundation. That wasn’t working. Maybe this will.
Whatever, I hope it does, because I think it’s in baseball’s best interest to have a viable franchise in Pittsburgh. Plus PNC Park is an absolute gem.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 30, 2009 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Possible.
Who knows in the gluttony of prospects they have received this week there could be a solid foundation on which they can build the team around to contend in a few years.
Couldn’t agree more about having a viable franchise in Pittsburgh.
by Tangled Up In Blue on Jul 30, 2009 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Neal Huntington <> Dave Littlefield
Huntington studied under Mark Shapiro in Cleveland. So far, I’ve liked his moves – it is like what Dombrowski did when he took over in Detroit.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Jul 30, 2009 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Good point.
IMHO the moves that are being made by Pittsburgh now have a better shot at working out long term than some of the head scratches made by the previous administration.
I was happy to hear the statements coming out of Pittsburgh after the McClouth deal that they were going to build a contender. I guess they still are doing that, just looking more into the future than I anticipated.
by Tangled Up In Blue on Jul 30, 2009 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions
absolutely
i think they’ve gotten really good talent in the last week considering what they’ve given up, which wasn’t much.
by John T. Unger on Jul 30, 2009 6:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Littlefield
should have been fired solely for giving that big contract to Matt Morris.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 31, 2009 1:24 AM CDT up reply actions
they are building around Onedec
"If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong." - a well known stock market guru
by LAcarl519 on Jul 30, 2009 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions 8 recs
POST OF THE DAY.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 30, 2009 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Are the Bucs going to get rid of the red clown suits?
"If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong." - a well known stock market guru
God, I hope so
I was in Pittsburgh last year for the Cubs series in September when they wore those. Cubs got beat, too. IIRC, I think Gorzelanny was the winning pitcher.
Those might be the worst “alternative” uniforms in baseball.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 30, 2009 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Correction
That series was in 2007, not last year. Which stands to reason, b/c Gorz was pretty good in ’07.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 30, 2009 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions
The Black Alts are their new ones...
…they don’t wear the McDonald’s uni’s any more.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Jul 30, 2009 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions
27 yr old lefty starter
Still a lot of upside.
"These are terrible times, and I shouldn't joke about them." --Warren Zevon
lefties lefties lefties
what’s with the infatuation with lefties. do we need three lefties in the pen? no, one maybe two. too much emphasis on match ups in this day and age. we need another solid bat. should of went and got Dunn for fox and hart and sent bradley to the moon
by ronnievansanto on Jul 30, 2009 5:38 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
-1000
The thought of Dunn playing right field in Wrigley sends a shiver through my bones.
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
That's from all the home runs and RBI he would produce.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
no
it’s from all the singles he would turn into doubles and triples.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 30, 2009 7:52 PM CDT up reply actions
At first
I thought this was some misguided play on his speed, but then I got it.
by northernsails on Jul 30, 2009 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions
YSWIDT
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 30, 2009 11:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Kinda like Pence did
all weekend. Pence did not play the caroms off the wall well at all and he is a good outfielder. I shudder to think what Dunn would do out there.
"Respect" ~ Ryne Sandberg
why cant we drop Iowa
and jsut affialiate ourselves with Pitt as out AAA team?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
All they are talking about on ESPN News (207 on DirecTV) is
this BS about Ortiz and Ms Manny. Who cares?
You have 21 hrs to go in the trade deadline and that is current news. Interviews about a 6 year old story is just tired gossip. We want NEW gossip.
"If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong." - a well known stock market guru
and you wonder why these leaks come when they do
its all about keeping the focus on roids
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
The NFL has the list.
"Booze, broads, and bullshit. If you got all that, what else do you need?" Harry Caray
by CubbieintheSouth on Jul 30, 2009 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions
it could come out tomorrow that Tom Brady and Peyton Manning used steroids
and Ortiz would still be the story.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
She should buy a house in Hattiesburg.
"Booze, broads, and bullshit. If you got all that, what else do you need?" Harry Caray
by CubbieintheSouth on Jul 30, 2009 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions
what about favre signing with the yankees
He can throw a fastball at 87MPH and make you look like a fool. He can spray lines drives to right field. He can put up with crappy offense and take the loss. He is Randy Wells. He is the most interesting pitcher in the world. Stay healthy, my friends.
by jesus christos on Jul 30, 2009 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Interesting, 2 pitchers
Grabow certainly adds to the pen, could the Cubs be thinking of letting Heilman find a new home and bring up Gorz in the starters spot?
That would leave Gregg, Marmol, Guzman, Grabow, Marshall, Samardz, and then Stevens in the pen for now. G-men, M-guys and S-fellows in the pen if this occurs
Then if Lilly returns Gorz could find himself in the pen and Piniella has 3 lefties.
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
FYI
Gorzelanny’s last start was Monday… so he’d be scheduled to start on Saturday. If he does that, he’s unlikely to be recalled soon. If he just throws an inning of relief, say, tomorrow, that would put him on target to start on Tuesday. We’ll see.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
how long would it take for the trade to get completed?
why would he be on the hook for a start with pitt on saturday?
i’m confused.
Gorz was sent to our AAA affiliate
The start would be for them, not Pittsburgh.
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
On the surface I don't like this trade.
Not because I feel like Hendry got ripped off, but because I don’t see how this benefits the team this year. Neither one of these pitchers are good. Grabow was alright last year, but he has given up far too many baserunners every other year of his career, this year included.
Gorzenally just sucks. Very, very uninspiring numbers.
So you wouldn't like Grabow replacing Heilman?
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
Well, of course.
I’d love that. But it’s not happening, so I don’t see what your post has to do with anything.
Look at Gorzelanny's 2007 season...
… and his Triple-A numbers from this year. Those numbers don’t “suck”.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You're getting completely..
fooled by those AAA numbers. He’s been awful for more than a year and half at the major league level, and the only thing significant that changed in Indy was the quality of the hitters. Think of sending Sean Marshall back to AA, and what his stats might look like, and you begin to get an idea. Those AAA starts were bull, and if the Cubs took even two second to send a scout to Indy, they know that already. Don’t be surprised if you don’t see Gorzelanny with the big club at all this season.
by Damen Jackson on Jul 30, 2009 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions
I heard the Cubs scouted Gorzelanny pretty intensely.
We’ll see who’s right.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
If you say so...
My point is I don’t think they took him with the notion of him making contributions this season, ‘cause it ain’t likely.
by Damen Jackson on Jul 30, 2009 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions
I read a week ago
that the Pirates didn’t want to bring Gorzelanny up from AAA because his service time was nearing whatever milestone that would grant him arbitration rights. Sounds like they just didn’t want to keep him because he would get more expensive soon. Sounds like anyone could have had him for free. I think he was a throw-in.
"Who's Bob Brenly? The guy that used to be the manager for Arizona?" ~ Alfonso Guilleard Soriano
Then what's stopping the Cubs from bringing him up?
He’s not likely to get that much in arb from them, unless he somehow has 10 great starts the rest of the year.
In which case we’ll be very happy.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Maybe they think they've got an easy fix
as they thought about Marquis.
Even if Gorz hasn’t been good, he has potential and could be good again.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
I can believe that...
But people talking about him taking starts at the major league level as early as next week is making my head explode.
by Damen Jackson on Jul 30, 2009 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Damen, I've seen Gorzelanny this year in person (like you)
and while I’ll concede some of those numbers are the result of Triple-A competition and playing in an extreme pitcher’s park, he has looked better and more consistent than at any time over the last 4 years.
He seems to have figured out how to pitch, so to speak, and truthfully, he probably doesn’t belong at Triple-A any more, given his success. If he can translate his confidence in Indianapolis to the Major League level, then the Cubs will have stolen him from Pittsburgh.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
We're of the same mind...
Like I said, I’m just having trouble with people talking about contributions this season from him. I just don’t think that’s what the Cubs were envisioning.
by Damen Jackson on Jul 30, 2009 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd agree.
I would be surprised if he was plugged into the rotation next week (bringing a fresh face from Triple-A, laid-back Indianapolis to the pennant race doesn’t jive with me). I could see him in the bullpen, with Marshall starting, though.
I look for Gorzo to compete for a starting spot in February and March next year, maybe picking up a spot start this year if someone is injured.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Agreed.
And for the record, the part of the deal that I’m really sour on is Grabow. Beimel would have been better, IMO.
by Damen Jackson on Jul 30, 2009 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Beimel would have cost more, though, I expect.
Meanwhile the Pirates were fresh from ripping off Sabean and didn’t need as much to make this trade deadline a winner for them.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
See, this is what happens
when you show up late to the swap meet. You get there early, while the fried chicken and ice cream is plentiful.
by Damen Jackson on Jul 30, 2009 8:17 PM CDT up reply actions
I could see Lou souring on Grabow quickly
If Jon doesn’t get his first few lefties out, I could see Lou burying him and Gorzelanny filling the role left behind by Marshall.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Honestly...
I think they’ll end up giving Ryan every chance to fill that role. We’ll see, I guess.
by Damen Jackson on Jul 30, 2009 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions
I would hope so.
Ryan, when on his game, is far more effective than Tom Gorzelanny.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
I think the same thing could happen
and it’s one of the reasons I’m glad we got a second lefty in the deal.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
True, but...
More relevantly, his numbers at the big league level this year and last year most certainly suck.
I don't like it
First of all Rothschild can’t help any pitcher find anything….if he comes here lost he will remain lost…..everyone who leaves gets better when they leave….just look what Wuertz is doing in Oakland…K’s to innings pitched….even Marquis says he worked on some stuff in the winter….do you think that Rothschild can help Marmol find the strike zone again like he did at the end of 2007 and start of 2008…..NOOOO……thinking that guy can change anything is ridiculous….he just ruins pitchers…..Rich Hill. Anyhow Lefties hit better against Grabow than righties……what is this suppose to accomplish? Isn’t the whole point suppose to be lefties hit the lefty specialist worse. Lastly, Harrison is a good ballplayer….he was leading the Peoria team for awhile in hitting when he was down there….I seen him…..that means he was hitting better than Vitters for the better part they were down there …bad trade
And yet we have a good pitching staff
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
You'd get a better response
if you used anywhere near proper English.
DEJESUS!!!
easy on the ellipses zeus
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 30, 2009 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions
So any success a Cub pitcher has is all them, and failure is Rothschild. Got it.
In other words, Larry has nothing to do with Ted Lilly being in the best 3-year stretch of his career, Demp’s career year, Marmol in 2007 and 2008, Wood’s stellar 2008, Zambrano, etc.
Thanks for that.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 30, 2009 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
uh
hasn’t Marmol been nails his last few starts? And Harden appears to have figured out whatever it was that was ailing him. Larry’s got nothing to do with that at all?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 30, 2009 7:55 PM CDT up reply actions
there's not much to not like here
grabow’s walk rate does leave a little to be desired but he is effective against both righties and lefties, can pitch more than one inning, and can throw back to back days, so he gives Lou some versatility. so grabow gives you another useful arm in the pen and probably relegates heilman to long man/mop up/ROOGY duty for the rest of the year. i’d assume bj ryan will be coming up in the next couple of days to fill the role of LOOGY and marshall will go to the rotation at least until lilly returns.
gorzelanny gives you depth in the rotation for the rest of this year and will likely battle for a spot in the rotation next season. It doesn’t hurt to have a guy that’s 27, has had success in the majors and is under team control for 3 more seasons.
as an added bonus, the Cubs could end up with Harden and Grabow as Type A free agents and Reed Johnson as a Type B next season which could net them a nice return in prospects if they play their cards right.
according to MLBTR
he is a Type A now, obviously that could change before the end of the year but he’s on track for it.
by circuitclout on Jul 30, 2009 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Cubs fill needs without hurting themselves=good trade
I dont know what else to say. They didnt give up anything they dont have plenty of (solid young SP, power bullpen arm and a solid prospect). Grabow gives the Cubs a true bullpen lefty and now can use Marshall in the starting rotation without losing their only lefty reliever. Gorzellany doesnt excite me, but he has shown in the past he can be effective. I think 14 wins for the Pirates equates to 35 wins for a good team. We didnt give up much to get him, so we are playing with house money.
Go Cubs Go!
but why is he a "true" bullpen lefty?
as opposed to just another lefty? he’s not particularly adept at retiring lefthanded hitters. so explain to me why he’s a positive addition? we have righthanded relievers aplenty to deal with righthanded hitters. we needed someone who can get lefties out, like sean marshall.
by John T. Unger on Jul 30, 2009 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions
It seems like people want to quote minor league stats when it helps their case
and dismiss minor league stats when it hurts their case.
Just an observation.
"If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong." - a well known stock market guru
So, I like the deal.
It’s not super exciting or anything, but I didn’t want Beimel and didn’t care much for either Ascanio or Hart, so Lou gets at least one lefty, maybe two, and we don’t lose anything we’re likely to miss.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
Pirates Trades
Among position players, one could have a playoff contending team of ex Pirates:
OF: Jason Bay
OF: McClouth
OF: Nyjer Morgan
3B: Aram
SS: Wilson
2B: Sanchez
1B: LaRoche
C: Kendall
Now my question: Have the Pirates ever given up any pitchers (recently) who could make this list?
"Earthly fame is naught but a breath of wind, which now comes hence and now comes thence, changing its name because it changes quarter." -- Dante, Purgatorio, Canto XI
I think he's serviceable...
But I see your point.
by Damen Jackson on Jul 30, 2009 7:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Debatable a bit
Sure he sucked in the bigs these past couple of years, but the talent is still there and the second they sent him down to AAA he dominated. Not like, oh he’s facing AAA hitters now dominating, but unhittable.
I think on a new team he can be a innings eater that give you decent numbers, he just really needed a change IMO.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
Mets Fans
Would give Ollie a big thumbs down—and no one would pick him up given his current contract.
"Earthly fame is naught but a breath of wind, which now comes hence and now comes thence, changing its name because it changes quarter." -- Dante, Purgatorio, Canto XI
by sweetswinger on Jul 30, 2009 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Jason Schmidt....
Jose Mesa, Mike Gonzalez, Kris Benson, Salomon Torres, Oliver Perez
All who had some success while with the Pirates.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Jul 30, 2009 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions
walks come back to bite you in the big leagues
k to bb ratio: 52-44 in the big leagues this year for ian snell.
he's in Seattle
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Jul 30, 2009 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Excellent Deal
Hart was overrated by Cubs fans after his quick start that first fall. He’s a decent middle relief/long man/spot starter, but no big loss. Ascanio, he’s a guy who might be a 7th inning, borderline setup type, but eh. No big loss there. Harrison? A nice guy in High A, but no big loss on that one either. He profiled as a utility guy (best case was 2nd base … and that isn’t a position that is that hard to find either). Think Mike Fontenot, with a dash of Sam Fuld (a little more speed than Fontenot) and a bit of DeRosa versatility. It’s not a big loss … and we have a couple guys behind him that profile similarly (for one, Dwayne Kemp, who might have more ability).
In saying all that, it’s not a bad trade for Huntington. It’s all about perspective. For us, it’s a gamble that Grabow finds his form and some depth. For Huntington, he’s trying to sell a lefty pen arm that hasn’t been as good this year, and a SP that was demoted to AAA.
by toonsterwu on Jul 30, 2009 7:55 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Haven't seen it mentioned, and I think it's an important point
Hart’s BABIP for the year so far is .235, he’s probably in for an unpleasant regression to the mean. Now it won’t happen to him on the Cubs.
That's big talk for a little guy,
but I'm walkin' without reply.
-Lil Wayne "Mr. Postman"
I like the deal
Only Harrison may have some upside. where the Cubs get two lefthanders that will help now. I rather have Grabow throw in the 7th or 8th than Heilman, and for that I will take this deal.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
I'd rather have Doug Dascenzo in the 7th or 8th inning than Heilman.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 30, 2009 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Two reasons I'm glad we got Gorzelanny:
1. He went to KU. (I live in Lawrence)
2. We now have the ugliest player in the history of baseball.
ahem.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 30, 2009 11:47 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 31, 2009 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions
ROCK CHALK JAYHAWK
I’m @ 14th & Vermont.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Nice location
I’m further south, on 30th street. I just got back from having a few drinks at the Jazzhaus.
I believe the nickname
given above should stick: “Hurlman”
How fitting.
Just how I felt watching him at Wrigley Tuesday night.
trade
lets hope this helps. i dont want marshall in the rotation.the reason he is so good in the pen?because teams usually catch up to him after 5 or 6 innings. leave him where he is better suited.

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