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Command and control

Richharden_medium

via www.mouthpiecesports.com


                                                                                                     

     There was a question during Harden's very poor performance against the Brewers this afternoon.  Someone came in late to the game thread and asked what exactly happened to him.  I mentioned he had bad command of the strike-zone with his fastball, and another blogger mentioned it was his control.  I disputed this notion, and he said "those two words mean the same thing."  In any event, Harden was pitching strikes, but had virtually no command on where his pitches were going within the strike-zone.  It really didn't have much to do with his control otherwise he would've walked a bunch of guys; instead he was getting hit very hard all over the field.  There is a nice piece on Pitching Tips Blog if anyone is interested in some clarification on the two terms. 

 

Command- a pitcher's ability to pitch within the strike-zone.

Pitching command means being able to locate any pitch within a certain section of the strike zone instead of just trying to throw the ball over the plate with no purpose.

Control- a pitcher's ability to pitch strikes or not. 

Pitcher's ability to improve control and throw strikes more consistently

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Congratulations?

Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team

by carmen_fanzone on Jul 4, 2009 8:34 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Predictable post

"Yeah, Moe, that team sure did suck last night. They just plain sucked! I’ve seen teams suck before, but they were the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked!" - Homer

by propheteer on Jul 5, 2009 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was hoping to surprise you. Damn.

Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team

by carmen_fanzone on Jul 5, 2009 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Certainly, there needs to be even more sarcasm in the world. ,

"Yeah, Moe, that team sure did suck last night. They just plain sucked! I’ve seen teams suck before, but they were the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked!" - Homer

by propheteer on Jul 5, 2009 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yay

you won.

DEJESUS!!!

by tomas21 on Jul 4, 2009 10:13 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm not trying to start an argument...

But didn’t you just prove yourself wrong?

Command- a pitcher’s ability to pitch within the strike-zone.

Control- a pitcher’s ability to pitch strikes or not.

If a pitcher is throwing in the strikezone, is he not also throwing strikes, and vice-versa? So with your logic, there is no difference between command and control as they both deal with a pitcher throwing strikes IN the strike zone…

I think you’re talking about the difference between throwing and pitching… Harden was throwing today. He was rearing back and trying to strike guys out. Take a guy like Greg Maddux, who rarely ever threw over 90 mph, but won over 300 games because he could “paint the corners” better than anyone else. He threw strikes, and has full control of his pitches… he was a pitcher. Zambrano often does the same thing, becoming a thrower and not a pitcher.

Anyway, I think you’re creating an argument for the sake of creating one, and those are never fun or informative. Leave the game threads in the game threads.

by lswaidz on Jul 4, 2009 11:31 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

No

I disagree. I’ve often heard them used to mean what propheteer says. It’s common parlance in scouts’ terminology as well.

Using these definitions, it’s possible for a pitcher to have good control while not commanding his pitches. For example, a pitcher can throw strikes consistently, but throw strikes right down the middle when he’s aiming for the corner.

by John Q Freejazz on Jul 4, 2009 11:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

They are not synonymous

Control = throwing strikes ( as defined by the rule book ), whereas command = throwing the ball where you want, both in the strike zone and outside of it.

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill

by lookingdeadred on Jul 5, 2009 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not really

Bad control- throwing balls.

Bad command- throwing strikes, but not placing the ball where you want it within said strike-zone.

"Yeah, Moe, that team sure did suck last night. They just plain sucked! I’ve seen teams suck before, but they were the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked!" - Homer

by propheteer on Jul 5, 2009 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My view...

Think of it like accuracy versus precision. Accuracy is when you have results which hit a general target area, but can be scattered around that particular area. Precision is where you’re able to have results packed together in a small area without much scattering, but that small area may not be the zone you’re aiming for.

For example, let’s say we have a pitcher on the mound who throws a slider. If he has good control, he can consistently throw that pitch for strikes, albeit he may throw them all over the zone with varying results. You’d probably see the catcher moving his glove a lot, changing his position, etc. You’d also see a fair number of meatballs down the heart of the plate.

However, if he has good command, he will be able to use that slider to hit a particular spot when called upon. Think the Steve Stone Special (slider in the dirt!). This includes throwing outside of the zone in order to get a hitter to chase. The catcher knows the pitch is coming and does not have to adjust to the pitch. So, when you see a pitcher throw a slider in the dirt in order to get a hitter to swing at a terrible pitch, and the catcher has little trouble blocking it, he’s showing good command, but technically not good control.

I know that’s fairly hyper-technical, but that’s generally how scouts grade pitchers.

by Outshined_One on Jul 5, 2009 3:12 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

good post

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill

by lookingdeadred on Jul 5, 2009 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the elaboration

"Yeah, Moe, that team sure did suck last night. They just plain sucked! I’ve seen teams suck before, but they were the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked!" - Homer

by propheteer on Jul 5, 2009 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Being a science geek..

…I had actually thought of the accuracy vs. precision comparison too.. .. but I was thinking that command and control are really just different degrees of accuracy. Bascially, control = decent/good accuracy and command = very good/excellent accuracy.

For example, you occasionally here the term “pin-point control” used to describe a pitching performance, and doesn’t that basically mean the same thing as having excellent command?

I suppose I’m not really disagreeing with anything in your post, just splitting hairs on the accuracy vs. precision analogy… :)

"People ask me a lot about the values I got from playing for the Cubs for so many years. The value I got out of it was patience. A lot of people these days are not very patient." -- Ernie Banks

by CubFanInCanberra (9387milesfromWrigley) on Jul 5, 2009 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you add an adjective like "pin-point" I suppose so.

I’ve just heard just about everywhere (baseball world) that the two terms are a bit different, and not really the same thing.

"Yeah, Moe, that team sure did suck last night. They just plain sucked! I’ve seen teams suck before, but they were the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked!" - Homer

by propheteer on Jul 5, 2009 11:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not saying they're the same thing..

but the fact that adding an adjective can make them essentially the same thing, implies that they are dealing with varying degrees of the same skill….

I’ll admit that I never really appreciated there was a difference between command and control before this topic came up here in the last few days and I now see that there is. But it does seem like mostly a matter of degree to me… like if a pitcher keeps improving his control then at some point he achieves command?

The real difference seems to be in usage of the terms, with “control” being used mostly to describe a pitcher’s overall performance using a variety of pitches, while command is often used to describe his performance with a particular pitch. But both command and control seem to be largely about accuracy. I’m happy to be corrected if I’m still missing something though…

"People ask me a lot about the values I got from playing for the Cubs for so many years. The value I got out of it was patience. A lot of people these days are not very patient." -- Ernie Banks

by CubFanInCanberra (9387milesfromWrigley) on Jul 6, 2009 3:13 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice reply

I now see that command can be construed as a pitcher being able to get the hitter to swing at a well-placed pitch, even though it may be called a ball. Good example was Lilly’s slider yesterday that was in the strike zone for most of the sequence only to break down and in to the right-handed hitter, thus resulting in a K.

"Yeah, Moe, that team sure did suck last night. They just plain sucked! I’ve seen teams suck before, but they were the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked!" - Homer

by propheteer on Jul 6, 2009 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, you can always look to Lilly for a good example..

of well pretty much anything.. :)

"People ask me a lot about the values I got from playing for the Cubs for so many years. The value I got out of it was patience. A lot of people these days are not very patient." -- Ernie Banks

by CubFanInCanberra (9387milesfromWrigley) on Jul 6, 2009 9:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Semantics

In common parlance, the two terms are fairly interchangeable. When you hear someone say “pin-point control,” then yeah, you’re basically saying the guy can put the ball wherever he wants it.

As baseball scouting terms of art, the terms are different enough that pitchers are evaluated on each one independently. Like I said above, the definitions are somewhat hypertechnical, but that’s part of the reason why they are terms of art. :)

by Outshined_One on Jul 6, 2009 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My opinion

How bout Harden throws complete game shutouts the rest of the year and we don’t have to worry about this.

"Check the magic of a winning season and there are always reasons beyond the talent." Ned Colleti

by wrigleyrocker12 on Jul 5, 2009 10:00 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

If he gets his command back,

he is as good as anyone.

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill

by lookingdeadred on Jul 6, 2009 8:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Bob also pointed out that last year, his fastball changeup difference was something like 10 mph. This year he said it was only like 6.

"Check the magic of a winning season and there are always reasons beyond the talent." Ned Colleti

by wrigleyrocker12 on Jul 6, 2009 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Semantics: Almost as much fun as baseball!

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by dat cubfan daver on Jul 5, 2009 12:14 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

talking baseball semantics is relevant

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill

by lookingdeadred on Jul 6, 2009 8:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely.

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by dat cubfan daver on Jul 6, 2009 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

IMO...

…these two terms are interchangable.

If you have good control, chances are you have good command etc. etc.. Years ago, it was called control and in recent years, the term “command” has creeped into play.

A real good example of “good command” was Ted Lilly on Sunday. I love to watch him pitch because he is just that – " a pitcher" vs a “thrower”. He was hitting both sides of the plate and varied his speeds beautifully. Lilly is real good at varying his fastball speeds and he catches the hitters off-guard. He will throw 87-88 and then all of a sudden bust one in tight at 91-92 (and that seems like 95 to a hitter).

The dude can pitch, and he also has the balls to throw certain pitches that other guys would shy away from. I have said this before, but he really reminds me a lot of Kenny Holtzman.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 6, 2009 9:56 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Completely agreed on the Holtzman comparison.

I noticed that the first time he put on the same uniform number. Similar styles and similar curveballs.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al on Jul 6, 2009 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The terms aren't really interchangable

as explained in other posts

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill

by lookingdeadred on Jul 6, 2009 10:17 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I understand that...

…and all I’m saying is 30 years ago, when you said a pitcher had excellent control, they could put the ball where they wanted it. Back then, they didn’t use the term command.

By today’s terms, if a pitcher is good enouph to throw a lot of strikes, it means they have good control. IMO, if a pitcher is good enouph to throw a lot of strikes, they are probably good enouph to put a lot of those pitches where they want.

To me, this is all part of the over-analysis that has evolved in baseball over the years.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 6, 2009 10:32 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Disagree

At the major league level, control (the ability to throw strikes) is usually not good enough, you have to have command (the ability to throw the ball where you want, not just over the plate). IMO that is an important distinction, you disagree, oh well, it happens.

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill

by lookingdeadred on Jul 6, 2009 12:02 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Semantics...

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 6, 2009 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Alright, I gotta admit...

…after reading this a couple times and thinking about it, I can see the distinction.

Command is commanding the strike zone – i.e., being able to throw a good strike vs. a bad one.

Control is controlling the baseball – i.e., being able to not only throw good strikes, but also throw pitches outside the zone to either set up a subsequent pitch or to try and get a batter to chase.

I guess I enjoy semantics more than I thought I did, though not quite as much as I enjoy baseball.

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by dat cubfan daver on Jul 6, 2009 2:50 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

command is a bit more than "...being able to throw a good strike vs. a bad one."

It also means throwing a ball that is out of the strike zone that a batter cannot lay off of.

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill

by lookingdeadred on Jul 7, 2009 8:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

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