Has the mis-management of Jake Fox cost the Cubs 1st place?
by SackMan on Jul 6, 2009 1:08 PM CDT
194 comments
Aramis Ramirez finally comes back today, after missing the last 49 games... and the Cubs are 40-39, miraculously just 2.5 games out of 1st place. After Ramirez got hurt on May 8th, Jake Fox repeatedly pleaded with Iowa Cubs manager Bobby Dickerson to play third base, but was repeatedly turned down for some inexplainable reason.
Meanwhile, the Cubs were using a combination of Mike Fontenot, Bobby Scales, and Ryan Freel to fill in at 3rd. After an initial spark, winning 5 in a row, they dropped 8 in a row (getting swept in St. Louis), and had a span where they scored 5 runs in 6 days. They were losing games 3-0, 2-1, 3-1, etc, and couldn't generate enough offense to take advantage of stellar pitching. That horrible offensive trend continued throughout May (and June).
On May 27th, Hendry finally called up Jake Fox, who was absolutely ripping the cover off the ball in Iowa. However, Fox was relegated to the bench and only got PH opportunites. Alan Trammell started working with him to play 3rd base, three miserable weeks after Aramis Ramirez went down. And, in a 8-2 loss to the Dodgers on May 31st, Fox subbed-in at 3rd in the 5th inning.
Dumfoundingly, Fox somehow never got another chance to play 3rd, and on June 10th, he was sent back down, despite hitting .417. The Cubs dropped the next 4 games in a row to Houston (2-1, and 2-1 in 13 innings) and Minnesota (7-4 and 2-0). Fox, meanwhile, went to Iowa and instead of playing 3rd base to get more reps, he played 1B and RF in four games... yet, another head scratcher from management.
The Cubs re-called Fox on June 17th, and two days later, Lou announced that he would be starting at 3rd vs lefties, because they needed his bat in the line-up. Since then, he's started 15 of the last 17 games (almost all at 3rd base). In that span, he's driven in 13 runs with 4 HRs, giving him a total of 15 RBIs on the year... all while playing very adequate in the field. Just to put Fox's production in perspective to our season so far: Fox has 15 RBIs in 71 ABs (1 RBI every 4.73 ABs), and Milton Bradley has 19 RBIs in 196 ABs (1 RBI every 10.32 ABs). Our team leader, Derek Lee, has 51 RBIs in 260 ABs (1 RBI every 5.10 ABs).
Since Ramirez went down on May 8th, the Cubs have lost 10 one-run games, and have been shutout 7 times. With our horrible team stats with RISP, and Jake Fox driving in runs at an awesome pace... it's no stretch of the imagination to think the Cubs could be 44-35 right now, in 1st place, if Fox had been playing 3rd base since May 27th.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Fox is good.
…But there is no way he’s worth 2.5 wins above replacement (assuming that our 3b replacements were even replacement level) over the course of 2 weeks, especially when you figure what his awful defense costs you.
It’s certainly odd he didn’t get a shot there, but obviously Cubs management didn’t think he was a viable option there. Having watched him there the last few days, I tend to agree with them.
by Wreckard on Jul 6, 2009 1:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
why?
What has he done to make you think he can’t play the position?
I’m not debating your point about the standings, FTR.
by elgato on Jul 6, 2009 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's been multiple poorly played balls
I’m not sure how people haven’t seen these. The glaringly awful ones were the misplayed bunt on Friday, and the diving play he couldn’t make with the bases loaded and 2 outs last week (against the White Sox I think?) He nearly cost us another run on Friday by failing to cover home plate on a pop foul.
Not to mention that in anything even resembling a bunt situation we have to play him 10-20 feet closer to the plate than we would for a normal third baseman.
I think people have been blinded by his bat on this one. I honestly can’t think of a game where he hasn’t made me cringe at least once since he moved there, especially having gotten to see him out there in person this weekend.
I like Fox a lot and frankly he’s been the best option there this past week due mostly to the awful play of those who would play in his place. But man will I be happy to see a real 3b play there starting tonight.
by Wreckard on Jul 6, 2009 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are crazy.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 6, 2009 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
honestly
the only play I don’t remember him making that I felt he should have was the misplayed bunt. I thought he’d been fairly competent — certainly, much better then advertised.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. [ibid] This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 6, 2009 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
These actually sound like reasonable criticisms to me.
This is why I’ve gotten so hooked on UZR; it’s really hard to judge defense on one’s eyes alone. Most of us – myself included – see Fox fielding routine groundballs relatively smoothly and say, “Hey, he’s doing OK.” But there are a lot of misplays (not the same thing as errors) that go unnoticed.
Having said that, I’m still so glamored by Jake’s awesome home run yesterday that I want him to see him out there by any means necessary.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 6, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought he did cover on the pop up
One of the Brewer announcers commented that he did.
Either way, Zambrano had no business catching that ball.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 6, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He did...
Len and Bob gave him a “good job” for getting over and covering home.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Jul 6, 2009 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Out of your mind...
He misplayed the bunt? How? He barehanded it and Hart was safe on a bang bang play. A diving play (you think?) he didn’t make, diving plays are not routine and not many 3rd basemen get to that hard hit ball down the line (if any). He did not fail to cover home plate, he got over there a split second late, but there was no danger in the run scoring. Len and Bob even applauded his effort to get home and cover the plate.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Jul 6, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know he didn't make the diving play
I think it was against the White Sox.
by Wreckard on Jul 6, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Diving plays are not always made...
It was a hard hit ball down the line, he dove and couldn’t get to it, can’t really fault the guy.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Jul 6, 2009 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good third basemen can get to their feet a lot more quickly than Fox
That play was to his left, iirc, not to his right, on a drawn-in infield with the bases loaded.
Look you can nit-pick my specific examples all you want but what I’ve seen is this: Fox would be overexposed at third over a long period of time. He does the little things poorly – his footwork is awkward, he’s slow to his feet, and his play away from the ball can be a little adventurous at times. He’s got decent hands and a strong arm but frankly I can’t help but feel like we’ve gotten lucky due to a low number of opportunities for him over there.
He’s better than expected, sure, but we expected something a “notch above horrific.” What we’ve gotten is probably 2 or 3 notches above that but it’s still bad – Ryan Braun’s rookie year bad.
by Wreckard on Jul 6, 2009 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suspect he could still handle it one or two times a week after Ramirez returns...
… especially if he keeps working at it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Jul 6, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would expect A-Ram to rest on day games after a night game.
So, that would be a great way to get Fox’s bat in the line-up.
And, if Soriano is gonna rest, put Fox in LF… he can’t be much worse that Soriano out there.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jul 6, 2009 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think your right...
…but will add, why they didn’t immediately see what he could do at third in AAA is really beyond me.
I can understand initial hesitation at the big league level (especially with a mediocre SS), but what did they have to lose in the minors?
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Jul 6, 2009 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've been askin' that question for weeks.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 6, 2009 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I think this is the more interesting question here?
Do we have a guy at 3rd base in AAA who is can’t miss? And if so, then why wasn’t he up here from day one when Aramis was injured?
In defense of the Cubs I would imagine that at least one or two authoritative voices in the organization felt that he would be too much of a liability at 3B. I am sure they are people with many years of professional experience and they have probably been right on many of these types of calls in the past (not being sarcastic here). Just trying to say tat there were likely experienced professional opinions, that’s all, that doesn’t mean they are correct all of the time. I hope that it wasn’t anything more than that.
by DudeVf11 on Jul 7, 2009 7:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe over time
he would actually improve.
by nks6911 on Jul 7, 2009 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Polishing a turd won't eventually yield gold
The world just doesn’t work that way.
by Wreckard on Jul 7, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
uh
are you suggesting that Jake Fox cannot get any better at third?
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. [ibid] This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not that he'll never get better
But I don’t think he’ll ever be good enough to play 3b on a major league team regularly.
by Wreckard on Jul 7, 2009 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
fair enough.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. [ibid] This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're on him...
for not making a diving play? Seriously?
by kanderber on Jul 6, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not "on him" for anything
I’m giving my honest assessment of his fielding. People asked for some specific examples and I gave them.
by Wreckard on Jul 6, 2009 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your assesments may be honest, but they are not necessarily accurate. I understand
that you are not a Jake Fox fan, but I don’t know what games you have been watching. Fox has made 1 error at third. While I did not expect him to be a defensive whiz, you have to admit that his play has been way above adequate. The examples you cite are pretty weak and the fact you cannot even recall which games makes me suspect of your evaluation. Jake Fox will never be a Brooks Robinson, but trust me, the Cubs have had much worse down there.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jul 6, 2009 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But I am a Jake Fox fan.
He’s just not a good defender. Errors are a pretty bad way to evaluate that. Unfortunately his sample size is too small to use any of the “real” defensive metrics so scouting is all you have. And if you don’t trust my eyes that’s entirely your decision.
trust me, the Cubs have had much worse down there.
I disagree. I’ve personally never seen a worse defender at 3rd in a Cubs uniform.
by Wreckard on Jul 6, 2009 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I don't trust your eyes. I trust mine. Yes, his sample size is small, but it's what
we have and the samples I have seen tells me he is an adequate fielder. I don’t buy the adage that errors are a bad way to evaluate fielding. If a player fields the balls that he touches, that’s a positive. Range for a third baseman is probably the least-important quality. Fox appears to be quick enough to field hard-hit balls and thats what I want from a third baseman. You can throw around all of the UZR and UZZI’s you want, the fact remains that the man has fielded his position adequately. He hasn’t cost the Cubs any games with his glove and he has certainly contributed with his bat.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jul 6, 2009 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When you compare his glove/bat combo to Freel, Scales, or Fontenot
I’d say Fox is a big upgrade over the other replacements, because none of those guys are really 3rd baseman either.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jul 6, 2009 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fox is... a big upgrade? Defensively? Overly anyone?
Oh dear.
by Wreckard on Jul 6, 2009 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Production... he drives in runs.
And, like I said above, none of the other 3 guys are 3rd basemen either. Freel’s the closest out of the bunch to being an actual 3rd baseman…he’s actually played over 100 games there in his 8 year career.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jul 6, 2009 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey that's your choice bro.
You can throw around all of the UZR and UZZI’s you want,
Um, where did I do that? I think I made it clear that his sample size isn’t large enough to use those stats.
He hasn’t cost the Cubs any games with his glove and he has certainly contributed with his bat.
He’s been lucky due to careful use (until recently, only with righties on the mound) and few opportunities. The more opportunities you would give him – which was the whole point of this diary, how we should have given him more opportunities – the more he would have looked like what he is. And what he is is definitely not a MLB third baseman.
by Wreckard on Jul 6, 2009 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was the editorial you, I wasn't claiming that you used those measurements. He's not a great third basesman. I would
never say that. He has been adequate. He hasn’t embarassed himself. He hasn’t tripped over his shoelaces. You can claim that the more opportunities he gets the more he will screw up, but that is just speculation. Whether or not he is a MLB third baseman is clearly a subjective opinion at this point. You can say that you feel that he is not, but at this point, you don’t have data to back it up. It’s way to early to make an evaluation like that. By the way, a large percentage of what happens on a baseball field has to do with luck. That’s the kind of thing you can always use to support or shoot down an argument.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jul 6, 2009 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me introduce to you...........
…………Mr. Lenny Harris.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
by tville on Jul 6, 2009 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Baaaaaand!!!
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 6, 2009 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's been as good defensively at 3rd as our corner outfielders
and not much worse than the stooges who have manned the position since arams absince. And his ops is higher than his weight
by nks6911 on Jul 7, 2009 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry what are you saying here?
That Bradley hasn’t been good defensively? Because that’s flat out false.
by Wreckard on Jul 7, 2009 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah 1 error fox sucks 
wells4roty
by jesus christos on Jul 6, 2009 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Errors aren't the only way to judge someone's fielding
by Pre on Jul 6, 2009 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, the color of his hair is important too.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jul 6, 2009 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and the color of his mitt
wells4roty
by jesus christos on Jul 6, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What specifically about Fox's defense has bothered you?
I haven’t been able to actually watch all that many innings of the games he’s played in but, from what I have seen (and what I’ve heard and read others say and write), Fox has seemed pretty solid at third base. Certainly not a defensive superstar, but competent enough to justify getting his bat in the lineup.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 6, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What specifically about Fox's defense has bothered you?
I haven’t been able to actually watch all that many innings of the games he’s played in but, from what I have seen (and what I’ve heard and read others say and write), Fox has seemed pretty solid at third base. Certainly not a defensive superstar, but competent enough to justify getting his bat in the lineup.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 6, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, I'm sorry for dating your ex-girlfriend, BCB.
But you don’t have to continue embarassing me like this.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 6, 2009 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's just
getting confused that only one of you is posting. It’s apparently compensating for the fact that Drew hasn’t replied to this comment himself yet.
"Respect" ~ Ryne Sandberg
by gwood on Jul 6, 2009 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
She just wants her
old Mambochicken back, that’s all.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. [ibid] This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 6, 2009 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Peavy
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 6, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You mean "PV."
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 6, 2009 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. [ibid] This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 6, 2009 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ROCK!!!
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 6, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
SAN DEAGO
I want to be traded!
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. [ibid] This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 6, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What makes you think his defense is awful?
I can remember only one ball that I thought he sould have gotten to.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Jul 6, 2009 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well... our replacements at 3rd base since May 8th
Ryan Freel = 1 RBI
Mike Fontenot = 11 RBIs
Booby Scales = 7 RBIs
So, that’s roughly 18 RBIs from 3rd base in about 40 games they started since May 8th (I don’t know what positions they were playing when they drove in those runs). We’ve played 53 games since May 8th, and Fox has started 13 or 14 at 3rd.
Jake Fox has 13 RBIs in his last 15 games started. I’d say that run production is a big difference. And the defense that was being played at 3rd by the other replacements is a wash to me. None of them are 3rd basemen either.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jul 6, 2009 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
RBI's are a silly way to try and make that comparison.
A very, very good player will be worth 3 or 4 wins above replacement over the course of a season.
You’re talking about a 2 week period here.
You’re also not taking defense into account.
by Wreckard on Jul 6, 2009 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Given the circumstances... I don't know.
We were losing games because we couldn’t drive in runs… even though we were getting outstanding pitching performances.
We had stretches where we went 0-21 with RISP… and a week later we went 2-35 with RISP.
You put Fox at 3rd, and move Fontenot back at 2nd, and when it all adds up, I think we could have driven in plenty more runs during this stretch… enough to win 4 of the 10 one-run games we lost.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jul 6, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed re: RBIs
Your arguments w/r/t stats are well-made.
If I have one criticism, it’s that these same statistical categories (esp. wins above replacement player) suggested that the Cubs losing Aramis would cost us just over 1 game. While we can’t know for certain what would have happened had Aramis not been injured, I think most of us are pretty confident that we would have won more than 1 game than we have.
by John Q Freejazz on Jul 6, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then maybe our feelings are wrong.
That’s the reason that people worked out stuff like RAR/WAR — and even did things like adding up batting WPA and RE24, which seem to mostly agree with it.
According to something I saw on TV the Cubs were scoring a whole run less per game since Ramirez’ injury. Research has shown that one player’s absence is simply not worth a run per game. Not even if you replace vintage Barry Bonds with Aaron Miles (although then it’s actually pretty close). The other position players have contributed a lot to the Cubs’ offensive struggles.
by aldimond on Jul 6, 2009 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
So Aramis' absence...
Has cost us approximately 1 win according to your logic? I highly doubt that.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Jul 6, 2009 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree....
…you just can’t quantify his value on a spread sheet. And, losing your best hitter has an overall effect on your entire lineup (especially for a long abscense).
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Jul 6, 2009 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it's cost about 2.
Ramirez is worth about 5 wins above replacement.
by Wreckard on Jul 6, 2009 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You do realize...
That there is more to this than just VORP/WARP numbers? You can’t really sit here and tell me that you can actually quantify with 100% certainty the impact that he’s had on the rest of the lineup and the way pitchers attack it.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Jul 6, 2009 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can’t really sit here and tell me that you can actually quantify with 100% certainty the impact that he’s had on the rest of the lineup and the way pitchers attack it.
No one can tell you anything like that with 100% certainty.
However if you have a better way of statistically measuring the loss of a player over a specific period of time then I’d love to hear it.
by Wreckard on Jul 6, 2009 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have, unintentionally, proven the point...
… of those who say there’s more to this than numbers:
if you have a better way of statistically measuring the loss of a player over a specific period of time then I’d love to hear it.
No, there probably isn’t a better way of STATISTICALLY measuring such a loss.
However, as noted by several above, there are more factors involved than simply crunching numbers. I trust you’d agree.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Jul 6, 2009 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Jul 6, 2009 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course but that's not really germane to the discussion here
Sackman posted a bunch of numbers and I said those numbers were a poor way to compare players. I never claimed the numbers told any story other than the story they tell.
by Wreckard on Jul 6, 2009 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll add this though:
2 wins seems like a pretty good estimate. It may be closer to 3 because it assumes replacement-level play in his absence, which we did not get.
But he’s Ramirez, not Superman. Even a really good player only influences the game so much.
by Wreckard on Jul 6, 2009 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Never never...
…underestimate the cantagious effect that one hitter can have on a lineup. I realize why this is hard for a lot of people to understand, but I feel strongly that it is very real.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Jul 6, 2009 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How many proven players and managers...
Have made the statement, and I know it’s cliche, but “hitting is contagious”. Brenly has talked about this a lot this year.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Jul 6, 2009 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then wouldn't the opposite be true as well?
by Wreckard on Jul 6, 2009 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It absolutely is...
…which is another reason it is good to have a guy at the top of your order to be the table setter and to help manufacture runs when your boppers aren’t bopping.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Jul 6, 2009 11:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
His absince has had much more effect on the team than just his bat alone.
Soriano is pressing tring to carry the team, which has lead to Theriot pulling the ball, and not doing what a 2nd hitter would normally do if he had someone on base. This leads to an unprotected DLee who bats with no one on base.
by nks6911 on Jul 7, 2009 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes because you definitely know this
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 8, 2009 2:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand you Al
You always say things like (paraphrase) “you can’t possibly measure the complete impact players have by statistics, so don’t even try”. That is a pretty ridiculous thing to say. While I agree that their are likely factors, albeit very small ones, that affect winning other than stats, those are the only things that we have to go by.
We don’t know if intangibles actually have an effect on winning, or how large it is. We also don’t know how to identify intangibles in players. Therefore, we should only use the information we have (stats) to value players. Empirically it has been shown that the teams with the best stats win more ballgames, and the players with the best stats help their teams the most.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 8, 2009 2:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
WAR implies the most likely outcome
WAR is context neutral and actual wins can be affect by things such as timely hitting, luck, etc. However, we can say that we can expect that Ramirez’s absence has cost the Cubs about 2 wins.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 8, 2009 2:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
WAR implies the most likely outcome
WAR is context neutral and actual wins can be affect by things such as timely hitting, luck, etc. However, we can say that we can expect that Ramirez’s absence has cost the Cubs about 2 wins.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 8, 2009 2:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
len or bob said the cubs score approx 1 run less since aram went down
wells4roty
by jesus christos on Jul 6, 2009 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's huge...
We’ve lost 11 one-run games since Aramis went down (17 by 2 runs or less). You’d have to believe he could’ve had an impact on some of those outcomes.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Jul 6, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He cost you about 1 WAR
Actual wins vary due to timely hitting and whatnot.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 8, 2009 2:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
On average, over the course of a season, sure
But with the benefit of hindsight, looking at a stretch of games in which the main problem for the team was hitting, a superior hitter would have had more than an average impact.
On average, the whole team can’t be expected to hit under .200 or whatever it was. But WHEN THEY DO, someone hitting well makes a big difference.
You wouldn’t use WARP to determine the best pinch-hitter in a single instance, would you? “Oh it doesn’t matter whether Lee or Miles pinch-hits here. Sure, Lee has a WARP that is 20 wins above Miles, but that’s over a whole season. When it comes to one at-bat, the difference is so small as to be meaningless. I mean, really, it’s random.” WARP is not the right tool, here.
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
by zambranofan on Jul 6, 2009 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um.
You wouldn’t use WARP to determine the best pinch-hitter in a single instance
No, if you were trying to find the right fit for a particular situation, you’d probably use, you know, situational stats. But that’s not what’s at issue here; here Sackman’s trying to (or at least should be trying to) calculate the amount of wins a player would have given the Cubs over a particular period of games. That’s exactly what stats like WAR and WARP3 were designed for.
Sure, Lee has a WARP that is 20 wins above Miles, but that’s over a whole season.
That’s why you divide it into the time period you’re supposed to compare. The more you divide it the less accurate it will get due to uncertainty.
When it comes to one at-bat, the difference is so small as to be meaningless.
We’re not talking about one at bat, we’re talking about somewhere between 100-200.
by Wreckard on Jul 7, 2009 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Regarding WAR
When someone says, losing Ramirez only costs the team about 2 wins; he is really saying we can expect that if you played the season a hundred times, the aggregate stat totals put up by Ramirez vs. his replacement would result in about 2 wins during that span. While that may not actually reflect reality, it is by far the best estimate that we have and it does represent the most likely outcome.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 8, 2009 2:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
These are the exact reasons why the Cubs..
should’ve had him in the minors playing 3rd. If he had been playing there since Aram went down, he may have had more experience to actually make a great play every once in awhile.
"Yeah, Moe, that team sure did suck last night. They just plain sucked! I’ve seen teams suck before, but they were the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked!" - Homer
by propheteer on Jul 6, 2009 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
really good post
I’m most dumbfounded by the fact that he wasn’t allowed to play third base for Des Moines! What would have been the harm of trying him out there? Certainly, his ability to play the position is not just the result of Trammell’s teaching.
by elgato on Jul 6, 2009 1:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I should note ...
that I like the post for some of the questions it poses — but the question about first place is very, very hypothetical.
by elgato on Jul 6, 2009 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I should add
that the question about first place is very hypothetical, but the questions about the Cubs’ hesitance to try Fox at third are completely valid — and, frankly, worth asking.
by elgato on Jul 6, 2009 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
shoulda coulda woulda
I don’t see how there’s any way to tell. Maybe he knocks the cover off the ball, or maybe he goes 0-8, like he did at the Cell.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. [ibid] This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 6, 2009 1:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Could the outcome have been different with Fox?
Sure. But we just don’t know what he would have done in those games.
There’s no point in worrying about spilled milk now. The more important thing is that we still have a chance to right the ship and win this division.
by SouthernCub on Jul 6, 2009 1:22 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, it appears from a statistical perspective...
…it’s highly, highly unlikely that having Fox at third base from the moment Aramis went down would have the Cubs sitting pretty in first place right now. But I share your frustration on how the third base situation has been handled this season from several perspectives – the Jake Fox Factor being one of them. And this is a nice summary of the situation.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 6, 2009 1:27 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
I just don’t understand the thinking of management here. Why did they jumble him around when Rami went down? Was he still considered trade bait then, while they hoped Scales/Freel could hold the fort down?
It just doesn’t make sense to me and obviously many others, and it makes you wonder what these people are thinking, considering they do this for a living. There must be some rationale, right!?
by cubfan1982 on Jul 6, 2009 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
At worst we'd have won a couple more games if Fox had just been given the chance to play 3rd
instead of calling him up and having him sit on the bench every day and do nothing while the other 3rd basemen basically stunk it up.
"He can't hit, he can't field, he can't run—all he can do is beat you."
by Itchy on Jul 6, 2009 1:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
at best
WE’D BE KING OF THE WORLD, FRANCIS!
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. [ibid] This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 6, 2009 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
For missing 49 games...
He may as well have been juicing.
I kid, I kid.
by 10 14 23 26 on Jul 6, 2009 1:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Jake Fox is the new Brian Roberts.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jul 6, 2009 1:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm gonna need to think about this one.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 6, 2009 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Peavy...
was the new Brian Roberts, then DeRosa was the new Peavy, so wouldn’t this make Fox the new DeRosa or has that position been filled by someone else?
by CubFan81 on Jul 6, 2009 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Roberts is the new DeRosa. And the circle is complete.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. [ibid] This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 6, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which logically means PV is Fox's mother?
I haz comedy show in August. You come seez it please?: Hot Beans Delivers
by digitalbenjamin on Jul 6, 2009 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pinella has already admitted he didn't go to Fox soon enough at 3B but...
look at the other side of the coin. You have a highly promising young player who could have gone into 3B and made 8 errors in a week and had his confidence completely undermined not just playing 3B but overall. It is only a mistake when viewed retroactively, I think Pinella assumed and hoped that guys like Fontenot would perform far better.
by BeltwayCubsFan on Jul 6, 2009 1:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
where was that quote?
"Cubs Win, Cubs Win, CUBS WIN!"
Steve McMichael: "I'm going to have to have a talk with that umpire down there." Angel Hernadez then ejected McMichael. 08/07/2001
by MandMexpress12 on Jul 6, 2009 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Posts like these are fun
Wheeeeeeee
An argument about a player’s value as compared to other players (replacement players) that does not consider VORP or WARP.
Wheeeeeeee
by Leon Durham on Jul 6, 2009 1:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Bull!
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 6, 2009 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course, that's a reference to your user name
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 6, 2009 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So is this
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jul 6, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm...?
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 6, 2009 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jul 6, 2009 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think that's the right way to eat a candy cane.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 6, 2009 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess that beats...
…hanging one of those pine trees from your rearview mirror, though.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 6, 2009 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
indeed
you could hang the pine tree from the hook.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. [ibid] This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 6, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Couple things to look at
If you look at the teams record when he has more than 3 at-bats I think it’s at .500 or under .500.
But on the plus side, his bad replaces a combo of two weak bats. So while he might not have caused the wins, other people not playing isn’t hurting the teams chances.
by ak123 on Jul 6, 2009 2:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes... you would be getting significantly more run production at 2nd and 3rd.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jul 6, 2009 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually I'll do the math later
Checking wins vs. losses aren’t fair. Especially if they were results of bad pitching or errors.
I’ll see when A-Ram went down games Fox played vs. games he didn’t and get the average runs in each. I’m work now so I can’t do it but I’ll do it later. It’s worth taking a look at to see how his presence has helped the team.
by ak123 on Jul 6, 2009 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cool... would love to see it.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jul 6, 2009 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yep.
I buy the argument that Lou noting moving Fox to 3B right away has hurt this team. Not sure how many games… but looking at all the 1-2 run loses the past 2 months, I gotta think it would have made a difference in a few.
I haz comedy show in August. You come seez it please?: Hot Beans Delivers
by digitalbenjamin on Jul 6, 2009 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The mis-management of Soriano certainly hasn't helped as well
"We got some pretty good chemistry here. We got some toughness, and it's starting to show." - Lou Pinella
by Clutche on Jul 6, 2009 2:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Sori
What are the chances Fonzi remains lower in the order if he takes an extended rest time?
While I’m not so certain about Dome in the leadoff, as Theriot & Fuld or some combination of those two may work, my first reaction yesterday was “Wow, you put the team’s highest OBP person leadoff…brilliant!”
Seriously, it just boggled my mind that Lou would consider going WITH the odds in a lineup or in-game situation.
Maybe he tried smoking steriods again, bc I hope some of this decision making will continue…
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Jul 6, 2009 2:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
"again"?
I would bet that if Sori goes on the DL, the first place Lou will bat him when he comes back is the top of the lineup.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. [ibid] This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 6, 2009 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
by top do you mean leadoff or 1 through 3?
"We got some pretty good chemistry here. We got some toughness, and it's starting to show." - Lou Pinella
by Clutche on Jul 6, 2009 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Batting.
First.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. [ibid] This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 6, 2009 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no idea why he would when he has Dome, Fuld and Theriot as options........
of course Lou does make strange decisions at times
"We got some pretty good chemistry here. We got some toughness, and it's starting to show." - Lou Pinella
by Clutche on Jul 6, 2009 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
there's that whole part about
how Sori hits best in the leadoff spot.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. [ibid] This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 6, 2009 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know....
but it’s not working so far this year
"We got some pretty good chemistry here. We got some toughness, and it's starting to show." - Lou Pinella
by Clutche on Jul 6, 2009 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll take that bet
Especially if they won, say, 13 of 15 WITHOUT him batting first
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 6, 2009 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok. Well, he's not going on the DL.
so…
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. [ibid] This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 6, 2009 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Indeed
Why, I don’t know.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 6, 2009 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
how do you smoke steroids?
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 8, 2009 2:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on whether the user knows
his steroids from reefer. With a little knowledge, you won’t make this mistake.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Jul 8, 2009 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Sigh…
"I got a PBS mind in an MTV world"...Jimmy Buffett
by The Ryno and I Know on Jul 6, 2009 3:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Not playing Jake Fox did not cost us any games
I really like the guy, but he would have helped us win maybe one game, and that’s unlikely.
by Pre on Jul 6, 2009 3:10 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
why?
I haz comedy show in August. You come seez it please?: Hot Beans Delivers
by digitalbenjamin on Jul 6, 2009 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well it's hard to say
We lost a lot of 1-run games. Otherwise I’d agree with you.
by ak123 on Jul 6, 2009 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
11 to be exact
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Jul 6, 2009 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea so his presence
Could have impacted all 11 or 0.
The reason being is the dynamic of hte lineup. Fontenot/Miles/Blanco might not be batting that day and therefore the bats out of their hand. Players might be in different spots.
But if we lost 11 1-run games. I’d like to think that Fox could have been responsible for helping score a run or getting on base 1 more time in atleast 3 of those games. But then again he’s gone 0-for-5 in games.
We’ll never know for sure now though….
by ak123 on Jul 6, 2009 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We're 12-14 in one-run games.
We’ve lost 10 since A-Ram went down… 11 if you count the the day he got hurt (a 3-2 loss @ Milwaukee).
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jul 6, 2009 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I counted that one...
B/c I belive he only had 1 AB.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Jul 6, 2009 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right...
I was just stated how many there were. However, it is reasonable to say that because we are scoring more runs per game with Fox in the lineup, that maybe some of those close games that we lost could’ve gone the other way. We’ll never know.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Jul 6, 2009 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just a FYI
I’m not usually a stickler for spelling and grammer, but this one bothers me more for some reason. Sorry, I just had to.
omit- inexplainable
insert- inexplicable
"Yeah, Moe, that team sure did suck last night. They just plain sucked! I’ve seen teams suck before, but they were the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked!" - Homer
by propheteer on Jul 6, 2009 3:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
OR
unexplainable
"We got some pretty good chemistry here. We got some toughness, and it's starting to show." - Lou Pinella
by Clutche on Jul 6, 2009 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OR
inconceivable
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 6, 2009 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OR
unfathomable
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jul 6, 2009 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 6, 2009 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do not think that word means what you think it does.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 6, 2009 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too bad you spelled grammar wrong or was that a joke?
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
by BigJohnAZ on Jul 6, 2009 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
good catch
"We got some pretty good chemistry here. We got some toughness, and it's starting to show." - Lou Pinella
by Clutche on Jul 6, 2009 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
or end a sentance with a preposition lol
"We got some pretty good chemistry here. We got some toughness, and it's starting to show." - Lou Pinella
by Clutche on Jul 6, 2009 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe he's a big Frazier Crane fan.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jul 6, 2009 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ooopsy. Oh well. I won't even edit it... it's humurous
As funny as your spelling mistake
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jul 6, 2009 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess the jokes on me!
“People hang every one of his words…even the propositions.”
"Yeah, Moe, that team sure did suck last night. They just plain sucked! I’ve seen teams suck before, but they were the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked!" - Homer
by propheteer on Jul 6, 2009 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's hang on to every one
Jeez, i’m completely off my rocker. I’ll just stop now.
"Yeah, Moe, that team sure did suck last night. They just plain sucked! I’ve seen teams suck before, but they were the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked!" - Homer
by propheteer on Jul 6, 2009 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OR
ungodly
"We got some pretty good chemistry here. We got some toughness, and it's starting to show." - Lou Pinella
by Clutche on Jul 6, 2009 3:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Patton to DL, Fuld and Hart to AAA...
Per The Score
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Jul 6, 2009 3:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I was hoping they'd DL Patton.
Having to keep him on the roster all year has been an obstacle.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jul 6, 2009 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I imagine Patton came down with
the very common " we can’t hold your roster spot" injury and Fuld with the you still have options so we keep the infefior players and let Soriano play till he crawls around the bases injury.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 6, 2009 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has anyone in the Cub organization confirmed that Sori is injured?
"We got some pretty good chemistry here. We got some toughness, and it's starting to show." - Lou Pinella
by Clutche on Jul 6, 2009 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Watch him if he gets on base
which unless he gets two badly fielded pop like yesterday may be a while, he can’t run. I have no idea what more the Cubs need to see to understand he is injured.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 6, 2009 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's hurting the team in the field... at the plate... and on the bases.
Get him healthy again… especially since his horrible slump can be outperformed by someone else.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jul 6, 2009 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Soriano is goofy...
…sometimes he looks like he can’t run when he is perfectly healthy, it’s just the way the guy is. He may be hurt (I really don’t know), but I have a feeling any injury he has in pretty minor.
It will be interesting to how the lineup looks with Ramirez back. Will Lou put Ramirez in back of Soriano to offer protection and hope he starts to heat up?
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Jul 6, 2009 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So he fakes barely making it to first etc ?
He is not that goofy. I can tell you watching him yesterday something was wrong.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 6, 2009 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I mean...
…is I think he over reacts to anything he feels with his body. If you recall, last year he was clearly not running full speed for a while, and he said he was healthy, but was scared to open it up just yet.
I’m not saying he isn’t hurt, or that he intentially loafs. He just doesn’t have a motor that goes full blast all the time.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Jul 6, 2009 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL at your love for Fuld
But, I actually do think Soriano should be on the DL right now.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
by SackMan on Jul 6, 2009 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really thought he would be
Maybe they are waiting to see if Soriano does better hitting with Ramirez in the lineup.
And they are waiting for the All-Star Break to come and go, reasoning he will get several days rest.
If he hasn’t improved after the break, I would wager the Fuld-Love returns!
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jul 6, 2009 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Makes the most sense for now
Hoff is saved for another game.
by ak123 on Jul 6, 2009 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No...
And first place hasn’t been “cost” by anything yet.
I don’t know if I agree with Wreckard’s harshness, but the fact is, Jake Fox didn’t earn the benefit of the doubt defensively.
Fox is still a 1B/DH. We should pray his bat stays hot. It’ll make the trade market in the off-season sweet.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jul 6, 2009 3:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
yes and not putting Soriano on the DL
and not playing Fuld will cost us the World Series
( um YES I AM KIDDING)
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 6, 2009 3:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Original poster is absolutely correct
The Cubs are trying to buy a championship and it’s blowing up in their face. Their minor league talent is clearly outperforming their big money players and they are refusing to play the lesser experienced albeit hot bats, probably just to save face. The Fox debacle was a big screw up. So is the continued bench-riding of Hoffpauir for Milton Bradley against righty pitchers. Throw in the unconsionable decision of Fukudome over Fuld and you can clearly see a pattern. The Cubs would have a better record if they stuck with youth (i.e. marlins, D-backs, Rockies et al), but management won’t allow it. When the Wrigley fans are turning on the overpaid bums unanimously and championing the fresh faces management should realize the magnitude of their screwed-up priorities.
by Jerry Mumphrey on Jul 6, 2009 4:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Bradley and Dome
have picked it up lately and Hoff turned into a pumpkin a long time ago.
But you are so cute with your rants. I just want to eat you up!
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Jul 6, 2009 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dome and Fontenot won't miss June
Fukudome has almost half the amount of hits he had in July and 1 less RBI (2!).
Fontenot is in the same boat. He’s hit as many doubles in July as he did in June and is sporting a nice .500OBP this month so far.
Listen, we can talk the success of the lineup all we want but there’s no coincidence that these two struggled and we lost games and now that they’ve hit this month we won 4 of 5.
If everyone starts working well together, they can churn out a nice run before the ASG.
by ak123 on Jul 6, 2009 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're upset because you got to see Milton work walks
instead of watching Hoffpauir K in every 4th at bat? oook then buddy
by dimarco on Jul 6, 2009 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are vastly over valuing our young players
So is the continued bench-riding of Hoffpauir for Milton Bradley against righty pitchers.
Hoffpauir’s OPS is just 70 points higher vs righties – it’s not like he’s out there killing them either – and his defense isn’t anywhere near as good as Bradley’s. The fact is that Bradley’s not going to get going from the left side by sitting on the bench vs righties.
The Fox debacle was a big screw up.
They didn’t believe he could play MLB quality third base. I think they were right. Calling it a debacle is hyperbole on a scale that even I’d be embarrassed of, and I think that hyperbole is the most awesome thing in the history of the universe.
Throw in the unconsionable decision of Fukudome over Fuld
Hahahaha. Oh my. Fuld is not an MLB player. I’m not sure why people keep thinking this.
by Wreckard on Jul 6, 2009 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sam Fuld got a couple of hits and suddenly everyone thinks he's a legit big-league hitter
by Pre on Jul 6, 2009 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Doesn't getting hit in the big league make you a big-league hitter?
Just askin’
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jul 6, 2009 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a tiny sample size
He wasn’t a great hitter in Iowa, why should we think he’s going to tear it up as a leadoff guy in the majors?
by Pre on Jul 6, 2009 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was a very good hitter in Iowa
However no one was expecting to hit .400 or even .300. His value is that he is very fast, very good defensively and a good hitter with a great eye ( translation he can get on base and or advance runners).
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 6, 2009 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is he not an MLB player or not an MLB starter.
Because, this time around, I thought Fuld appeared to have the makings of a decent OF utility guy. We obviously didn’t get all that much of a sample, though. And, for the time being, we ain’t gettin’ any more.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 6, 2009 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you
I was hardly expecting to be a starter but a good bench guy who can play any OF position with SPEED.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 6, 2009 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, he could have an ok career as a 5th outfielder.
But that’s just not something we really need right now. And the OP’s suggestion that Fuld should be starting over Fukudome isn’t just silly, it’s tragicomic.
by Wreckard on Jul 6, 2009 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My brother
have you not been invited into the Temple of St. Fuld?
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. [ibid] This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 6, 2009 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jake Fox
I think the cubs should try jake fox at second base.we could use his bat offensively as long as he makes the routine plays he should be fine. the more he plays the position the better he will get.
by twig on Jul 7, 2009 6:54 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
fuld
i think lou should of put soriano on the DL for bat beravement.used fuld for the next week and half in the out field. he would lead off followed by fuko
by twig on Jul 7, 2009 6:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Is that you NOMAR? If twig and NOMAR aren't they same person, they were
certainly seperated at birth.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jul 7, 2009 7:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
NOMAR has a large extended family...
…all of whom are afflicted with a congenital allergy to the Caps Lock key. Tragic really.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 7, 2009 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Psst...Fuld was sent back to Iowa yesterday.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Jul 7, 2009 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has supposed misuse of Fox cost the Cubs 1st place?
In a word, NO!
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Jul 7, 2009 8:13 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Debate appears over, but...
SackMan, I agree with you. Good post.
See my comment above about why WARP is a silly way to reply to your argument.
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
by zambranofan on Jul 7, 2009 8:43 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
This is a pretty outlandish idea
The best players only add about 6-7 wins to their team over the course of a full season. In the 2 week span you are mentioning, Fox would literally have to bat .500 to add 2.5 wins. Even then he may not because of his crappy defense.
Fox is really not a very good player. He has had exactly one really good season in the minors, and that came in his second year of AAA with a .431 BABIP. His defense is about average in the outfield, according to Total Zone, meaning it should be about -10 runs at third.
Derosa.
by vivaelpujols on Jul 8, 2009 2:15 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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