Umpires Gone Wild, Again
by Al Yellon on Jul 7, 2009 7:13 AM CDT
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PrintJoe Girardi was ejected from yesterday's 7-6 Yankees loss to the Blue Jays. Why? Arguing a couple of close calls. Routine, right? Happens all the time, right?
Not exactly. Read this from the above linked recap:
Yankees manager Joe Girardi was ejected by umpire Marty Foster in the first inning after Derek Jeter was caught stealing third and argued. Replays showed Jeter reached around Scott Rolen’s tag attempt and touch the base.
"I was told by the umpire that I didn’t have to be tagged to be out," Jeter said.
Wait, what? The runner doesn't have to be tagged to be out? Since when? At least crew chief John Hirschbeck has it right:
Crew chief John Hirschbeck did not make Foster available to reporters.
"It would make his actions seem appropriate if that’s what he was told," Hirschbeck said of Jeter. "It used to be if the ball beat you, you were out, but it isn’t that way anymore. It’s not a reason to call someone out. You have to make a good tag."
Well, um, yeah. Following the rules is always a good thing, especially for umpires. I can't believe an umpire actually told a player he didn't have to be tagged to be out. (And it didn't "used" to be that way, either. The ball beating the runner doesn't mean you're out. You had to be tagged. Then, and now.)
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Is Foster available to sing the 7th inning stretch at Wrigley?
Seems to make about as much sense as his response to Jeter…
Go Green! Go White! GO STATE!
King Leonidas: Spartans! What is your profession?
Spartans: HA-OOH! HA-OOH! HA-OOH!
Saw the replays...
… and there was a play later in that game at 2B where a throw got to second way ahead of the Nick Swisher trying to leg out a double. He had to dance way around the tag and he was safe. The umpire made the correct call.
That was the stupidest comment I have heard from an
umpire in a long time. Marty Foster should be disciplined for this behavior. If you missed the call, fine, you missed the call. But don’t give a lame excuse that the ball beat you there. I hate it when someone says that. It’s not like a call on a double play at second where a player is protecting himself. You have to make a good tag.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jul 7, 2009 7:38 AM CDT reply actions
Not line Yankees had runners on in hte 9th
Oh yea they did…imagine if they had a walk-off chance instead of trying to tie a game?
I hate when umpires do stuff that absolutely affect the outcome of a game.
I'm sure what he meant
was that umpires used to be able to get away with calling you out if the throw beat you because there weren’t 1,039 forms of replay.
If this had happened to the Royals or Marlins, no one would care. But because it’s St. Derek, I expect the ump and the umps family to be executed today.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
steals of second
back in the day. if the throw beat you, you were out. i’ve got the videotapes.
This is absolutely 100% correct
It was a concept that I never understood, but in the 70s and 80s it happened so often that I think everyone accepted that if the ball beat you on a steal, you were out. Fortunately, the concept has largely gone the way of the dodo. I suspect yesterday’s incident will lead to a reminder being sent to umpires that tags are, in fact, required for a runner to be called out on a steal.
Now if only they’d start making middle infielders actually touch second base on double plays while they actually have the ball…
Oh spare the logic
Logic and reason do not apply here. If they did, most of the rules would actually be enforced rather than some lazy acceptance of what has been the norm. Challenge flags for managers (one per game) are starting to look much better for those sorts of calls on the bases.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
indeed
when instant replay can actually make a difference, it should be allowed to be used on appeal.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. [ibid] This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2009 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions
I totally agree.
Replay should be available for those kind of plays.
And, BTW, that umpire would have been better off keeping his mouth shut. What a lame explanation for a bad call!
by Fraggin Judge on Jul 7, 2009 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions
Then... a whole new set of rules and strategies come into play
How often can a manager appeal? What kind of plays are subject to appeal? Is there a penalty for a wrong appeal?
Plus… once you open up that can… the worms will all come flying out in time, what used to be just replay on home runs, will become replay on balls and strikes in the 9th inning of game 7.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
well
these are rules I would set.
1) One (1) challenge per game from the Manager. Ump can look at IR for up to 3 minutes.
2) When the umps themselves disagree on a call, they can go to the IR any time they want.
3) This can only be used to contest HRs or plays at a base. No ball or strike calls can be contested.
4) No penalty for a wrong appeal. You only get one per game, make it count.
That’s it.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. [ibid] This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2009 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions
What about foul/fair calls?
Catch/trap calls?
And how would a changed call effect the advance of baserunners?
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
I’d allow it on both of those, I suppose.
Dunno about teh baserunners. If the guy’s safe, he gets to stay. I’d suggest that wether or not other baserunners advance is based on when the challenge flag is thrown?
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. [ibid] This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2009 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions
The beauty of baseball is knowing the umpire's call is final..........
unless it’s contrary to the rules, which in that the case, the game can be can be protested
"We got some pretty good chemistry here. We got some toughness, and it's starting to show." - Lou Pinella
I wont even go there
with things being final, and anything you state……..
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Agreed.
Replay has worked so well in other sports, why not baseball?
Truth is replay is not foolproof and it slows games to a snails pace.
Educate the officials and have them “work” at their craft, but don’t turn them into sniveling, second-guessing whistle blowers by imposing replay.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
Hmmm, that's not the beauty I find in baseball
I think the beauty is in many things from the majesty of the ballpark to the overwhelming complexity of it all.
Umps blowing calls and having them final? No, not so much. How beautiful do you think Braves fans considered it when Kent Hrbek literally threw Ron Gant off first base to get a key out in the World Series? I’ll bet they would have sacrificed some of the beauty of finality on that occasion.
I think this should be for playoffs only, and agree with the suggestion that it should be limited to HRs and plays at any base.
by Orval Overall on Jul 7, 2009 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Games times are long enough now without adding appeals
"We got some pretty good chemistry here. We got some toughness, and it's starting to show." - Lou Pinella
two appeals per game
aren’t going to make that much of a difference.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. [ibid] This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2009 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions
two possible appeals
there is no promise that either coach would use it every game
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
that's true.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. [ibid] This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2009 7:15 PM CDT up reply actions
the only time it wprks
calling player out if the ball beats you if you are a one man umpiring crew at a little league game
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
by Hammer on Jul 7, 2009 11:13 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
as a former ump....make the right call, not some stupid umpire school philos
Here is the problem for the umps, high def and every game broadcast. They now have to see the tag, heck Swisher avoided the tag against Toronto on a brilliant move, the throw beat him.
The umps are beginning to suck at their game and their attitudes are getting worse.
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
at least he didn't say
tie goes to the runner. The stupidest saying in baseball
it's a given, therefore stupid
if the runner touches the bag just as the ball arrives, then he’s on the bag when the ball arrives, and thus, safe
------ TheRiot Squad ------
by RightFieldSucks on Jul 7, 2009 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions
A literal tie isn't the point, its for when the play is too close to call
The expression “tie goes to the runner” is used to account for that small percentage of plays where youre not sure who arrived first because it was so close. In that case, give it to the runner as a hit.
by Orval Overall on Jul 7, 2009 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Tie goes to the Umpire
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Jul 7, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions
TECHNICAL BALK!
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. [ibid] This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2009 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions
You're gonna call that?!?
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Jul 7, 2009 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions
(ignores angry manager/player like an ump should)
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. [ibid] This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2009 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions
NO, the ump should throw the idiot out
for disturbing his peace
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
(ignores junkyard dog barking)
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. [ibid] This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 8, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions
the ump didnt know he was dealing with scawtty pods
wells4roty
by jesus christos on Jul 7, 2009 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Umpire Comment
If, in fact, the Umpire was correctly quoted, he should be removed for cause. Its called a tag play, not a throw play, for a reason. Its a basic rule and if the Umpire doesn’t know the basic rule, he should be fired. Now if he thought that the player was tagged, but was wrong, that’s simply an appropriate human error.
My biggest problem with
Tie goes to the runner is people think it’s an official rule
Those people need to be educated.
Again,
The official rule is that a tie goes to the umpire.
This only applies to force plays, not ones that require a tag.
I agree that umpires are being held to a much higher standard in the last decade with the ubiquity of video replay. In their defense, they get most of the close calls correct.
However, as the title of the thread suggests, narcissism among some umpires is a growing problem. There is the list of umpires who are always in the middle of these situations. Two that come to mind are Angel Hernandez and Rob Drake. It’s sad to see when umpires walk toward confrontations rather than away.
MLB should start putting mics on the umpires, similar to dashboard cameras in cop cars. That way, it’s easier for Bob Watson to figure out who the antagonist is. And, we can be treated to entertaining conversations like the one b/t Darryl Cousins and Scott Podsldkafnik during this years’ Cubs@Sox.
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Jul 7, 2009 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Let's keep in mind....
….that all we have is what Jeter SAYS the umpire said, It’s fishy that the ump wasn’t allowed to comment, but I’m sure we all know of instances where an aggrieved person’s recollection of what was said isn’t quite accurate. This is one reason hearsay evidence isn’t allowed in court.
Just sayin’.
"[I]f we get a Jumbotron, I can't pull the instant replay thing on all the rookies. Every time there's a good play, we're like, 'Oh, look at the replay,' and you get the rookies to look at the scoreboard." - Ryan Dempster, 2 January 2009
by CaughtInTheVines on Jul 7, 2009 1:56 PM CDT reply actions
I'll bet Jeter exaggerated a bit.
I find it really hard to believe an umpire told him that.
"Live and be happy, beloved children of my heart, and never forget that until the day comes when God will deign to reveal the future to man, all human wisdom is contained in these words: wait and hope!" - The Count of Monte Cristo
I don't.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2009 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions
me neither.
I'm a Cubs FANATIC. They are my team, through thick and thin. [ibid] This is the kind of fan I am.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 7, 2009 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions
ditto
with what we have seen this season from Umps, I can believe almost anything being said about them right now. They have lost all credability in my eyes.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
DJ's from Kalamazoo and everyone knows that Michiganders don't lie...
Cough (Kwame Kilpatrick) Cough…
Quia tuum es fatum titulis discidiis,
vexillinis limbis nationalis,
gloriam seriis mundialisque,
Nunc et in saecula saeculorum...
Amen.
It was a bad call...but
I saw the replay over and over again on espn last night and I agree it was a bad call and even more shocked at what was allegedly said “that the ball beat you there, therefore you are out” But can I just say that bad calls are made almost every game but the fact that this happened at a yankees game (heaven forbid!) that it is made national news. Am I the only one that feels that this was blown way too out of proportion and given way too much air time?
"Okay, just so I understand it...in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil."- Jim Halpert
The fact that an umpire would make a call like that (not based on ANY existing rule) is what's caused such an uproar.
Doing it against Jeter and the Yankees didn’t help, but I would be just as pissed about it had he made the call against A.J. and the White Sox. Some ML umpiring has become a joke.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 7, 2009 6:22 PM CDT up reply actions
It's hard to know exactly what happened...
From the angle where the umpire was standing, since the tag was between Jeter’s arms, it was probably hard to tell whether the tag was made or not. I could easily believe Jeter saying he evaded the tag and the ump saying, “The throw beat you,” meaning, “The throw beat you, I couldn’t tell whether the tag happened or not, I’ve gotta call something”. I doubt that the ump called Jeter out knowing that the tag was missed.
I am especially inclined to believe Jeter was misinterpreting the ump’s remarks based on this: Girardi commented that Jeter should only be stealing third if he knows he can make it, and Jeter said he wasn’t worried about that because he was indeed safe. Jeter also misinterpreted this remark — the point was that if you’re going to steal you have to make sure your jump is good enough to get there without having to get lucky on the tag. Jeter was angry about the play and unwilling to take any share of the blame for making the out. When you can only hear his side of the story you can’t hear much.
When you have human umps calling the game there will be plays they can’t see. Again, I don’t think umps are deliberately calling un-tagged runners out, but they need a rule of thumb so they can call plays they aren’t sure about without bias. “Tie goes to the runner” can be such a rule in force situations; so can the “ball beat you” call when a tag is unsure.
This happened in a Cubs game a week or two ago.
There was a throw to Derrek Lee that got there ahead of the runner, who was retreating to 1st. I can’t remember who it was, but the umpire called him out, even though replays show the runner had done a sly little maneuver with his hand to tag the base behind D. Lee’s glove before the tag was actually applied. I only remember it because Bob Brenly said that generally, when the ball gets there ahead of the runner, he’s going to get called out 9 times out of 10.
I guess I just don’t get why this is such a big deal.
"You have to have short-term memory, no matter who you are in this game. There's always tomorrow." ~Derrek Lee
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