Piniella and a Game of Web Telephone

by Ross on Aug 14, 2009 11:55 AM CDT

This is a bit of a rant. I know some people don't like 'em, so I am warning you in advance. You have every right to stop reading now.

Paul Sullivan, in today's Trib., wrote a story about whether or not Lou Piniella would be fired for the Cubs recent struggles. It's a fair question, in my opinion, with new ownership and given how the game of baseball works these days. It didn't call for his firing, nor make it sound imminent.

Meanwhile, perhaps as a counterpunch, Gordon Wittenmyer reminds us that Lou is just playing the hand he was dealt.

Then this morning, on Yahoo, I see the following: Cubs getting ready to can Lou Piniella? The only cited source for these rumors? The story in the Trib.

It's sad that it has come to this. The Cubs swoon, a couple of local beat writers throw out blatant speculation that the manager could get booted after the year is out, and suddenly Yahoo is blurting out rumors to a nation-wide audience that Cubs are going to fire him, when the article that it cites doesn't even infer that it is imminent.

The thing that bothers me most is that Piniella deserves better. He deserves better luck with injuries. He deserves players hustling more for him. He deserves "superstars" playing like superstars. And when it doesn't happen, it is his fault? these guys need to motivate themselves, to have the desire and mental toughness to be champions.

Perhaps they don't have it in them. When I look at the Cubs, I see a team full of complimentary players. Guys who aren't the stars, but excel when they are a compliment to a star. But the Cubs don't seem to have that one guy that they can build around. In theory, it should be that 18-million dollar guy in LF, but that seems to have been a Rex Grossman-like misread of his personality and ability.

The thing is that changing the manager isn't likely to change anything on the field. Even if the Cubs go to the other extreme and bring in a touchy-feely, hug-it-out manager, it's not going to stop the 18-million dollar man from trying to pull outside sliders into the bleachers, get Soto into shape, heal Aramis' shoulder, make Fukudome into Ichiro, fix the problem with Marmol, make Gregg a better closer, straighten Zambrano out, or repair any of the other problems that this team has.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Whenever a team falls as far below expectations as the Cubs have...

…speculation about firing the manager will arise. FWIW, I don’t think firing Lou would change that much either. Nor do I think Hendry is anywhere near doing so at the moment.

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by daver on Aug 14, 2009 12:04 PM CDT reply actions

i agree to a point...

Lou needs to be canned, we have all noticed his lack of fire and he needs to be replaced. I think this team was built the wrong way but does that mean they cant win a World series? I think they can, but they need to make some changes in the offseason. But lets all face facts this series against the pirates may be the end to the 2009 season, or the begining of a great run.

"God watches over drunks and third baseman."- Leo Durocher

by BelieveinBlue2314 on Aug 14, 2009 12:06 PM CDT reply actions

why

does Lou Pineilla deserve any of the things you suggest? or should i say deserve them more than any other manager?

i agree with your point that most things wouldn’t change with a new manager (with the exception of Marmol, perhaps a new manager would have a better grasp on how to use him rather than abuse him), but i don’t understand why Lou “deserves” anything different than any other manager

by DartmouthCubsFan on Aug 14, 2009 12:20 PM CDT reply actions

The Doug Collins analogy to me is a good one.

Doug Collins was a hard driving coach for the Bulls and he got them only so far, and then when Phil Jackson came onboard with his even temperament and zen pushing philosohies, that is what took the Bulls over the top. Could Doug have made it also? Who knows.

But when you have a hot headed manager (Lou Piniella), that approach only has a shelf life of so long when the players no longer respond to it. I do not think the players are consciously ignoring Lou. I just think after they’ve heard his rants for so long they become immune to the sting and do not get as motivated as previously. I think that is why Lou has been more laid back with the team this year, his message doesn’t have the same impact its had in the previous two.

Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton

by KaliCub on Aug 14, 2009 12:27 PM CDT reply actions

Well, to be fair...

…let’s look at what else was in the hand Phil Jackson was dealt.

by MN exile on Aug 14, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions

MJ is no Aramis!!!

Okay good point, but the my hot headed thesis still stands.

Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton

by KaliCub on Aug 14, 2009 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions

Meh...I think you have more problems than a failed Bulls analogy here.

I do think the biggest problem Lou has is failing superstars. Do you believe a player friendly manager would motivate Soriano or Bradley better? I just don’t see it. Their problems are from themselves and I don’t think Lou’s style is keeping Soriano trying to pull the hanging sliders all opponents seem to get him out on. He has seemingly tried most everything he can to help Bradley and it hasn’t helped either. What exactly would a different manager do that would help…they have to want to change their hitting, and I don’t think being more relaxed around them would do that.

by Sandberg's evil twin on Aug 15, 2009 5:11 AM CDT up reply actions

Milton Bradley for the last 28 days

BA/OBP/SLG/OPS
.338/.455/.465/.919

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Aug 16, 2009 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions

He is now at least,

the guy Hendry thought he was signing. Also, his numbers since the break are better than Abreu and much better than Ibanez, who has sobered up since his explosive start.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Aug 16, 2009 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions

obviously

everyone — including Bradley — would have preferred to play like this from the start. But if you have to choose, do you choose to be hot early or late?

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Aug 16, 2009 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions

Assuming my team is still in the race - later.

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Aug 16, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions

It's not that an even tempered manager would necessarily help the team this year,

it’s that Lou is not helping the team this year.

He has called Bradley an effing piece of shit. Zambrano joked when he had a bat to talk with Geo, that Lou there was going to be big news..meaning Lou was taking a bat to Geo. The players have seen his song and dance for 2 years now and are clearly not responding.

Imagine if you had a boss that would berate you on and off for a couple of years, after awhile you become immune to the sting and just shrug your shoulders. I think the team this year has basically just shrugged their shoulders.

Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton

by KaliCub on Aug 18, 2009 1:52 AM CDT up reply actions

Oh, the Bulls analogy is not failed one for comparison,

Doug Collins was fired because of the way he handled the team. Phil Jackson was brought on because of his even temper.

Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton

by KaliCub on Aug 18, 2009 1:57 AM CDT up reply actions

Going into the season, I thought:

- The Cubs would win between 84 – 90 games.
- The Cubs would win the division.

Right now, they aren’t on pace to do either, but their remaining schedule suggests the first one is certainly attainable. (Not giving up on the second one, even though I no longer expect it.)

So, let’s say the Cubs win 87 games. Right along with my expectations. If I suddenly get to make the call, what do I do? I bring Piniella back. The team will have played to about its capabilities, despite a lot of injuries.

It’s not Piniella’s fault that the Cardinals over-acheived earlier in the season and made good acquisitions.

The roster is the problem. Yes, Piniella had a hand in it, but I think Hendry had more to do with it. Swapping, essentially, DeRosa for Miles, over-exposing Fontenot, giving Marquis away for nothing and paying for the priveledge of doing so, having no back-up at third base . . . .

It’s time for Hendry to serve out his contract as a highly paid scout/consultant. I’d like to see the team change hands, and a new president decide with a new GM who the manager of the future is. If they want to give Sandberg a shot in 2011, get him on the coaching staff in 2010. If they want an experienced MLB manager, then Piniella may be asked to leave.

But for as frustrating as this season has been – and Piniella has made questionable moves – it’s not on him.

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Aug 14, 2009 12:40 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs

Completely agree...

…and I will await with baited breath as to what Rickett’s has in store.

The crazy thing is this; Dallas Green (the best GM the Cub’s ever had) was canned because he lacked people skills and despite of his significant skills in building a successful organization. Jim Hendry has kept his job because of his people skills and despite he lacks the skills a good GM needs.

IMO, Hendry is and always has been a scout in a GM’s shoes.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Aug 14, 2009 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions

Good point.

The crazy thing is this; Dallas Green (the best GM the Cub’s ever had) was canned because he lacked people skills and despite of his significant skills in building a successful organization. Jim Hendry has kept his job because of his people skills and despite he lacks the skills a good GM needs.

It doesn’t only happen in baseball!

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Aug 14, 2009 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions

and a poor scout at that

from his minor league days he certainly didn’t develop or draft anything of worth to the big league team. It’s amazing he still is employed.

by socalbob on Aug 14, 2009 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions

agree with both Shanghai and MPH here.

Only problem with this is it helps long term but not the next few years so much. Both Pinella and any new GM would have to have a lot more money than the current payroll to change this team greatly…there are just too many long term contracts in place right now for at least two years…and longer I believe. You have the double whammy…a big percentage of money of your large payroll going to Soriano, Bradley, and Fukudome who all have not been worth close to their contracts this season….coupled with the large number of years they are locked in for.

The only way out of this I see is hoping new management in place authorizes a lot of money to trade one or more of those three, then you can have a new GM make a large impact. I sure hope we either get a trade or a lot more money to bring in a stud 2nd baseman…or perhaps an outfielder moving one of those three into a platoon. I think it would be difficult to happen but sorely needed.

People may laugh here but I’ve been dreaming of getting Figgins on this team for a long time.

by Sandberg's evil twin on Aug 15, 2009 5:24 AM CDT up reply actions

Fukudome

is worth $13.4 million this year. His salary this year is $11.5m.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Aug 16, 2009 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions

Bradley

is worth $4.8 mill this year, his salary this year is $5m.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Aug 16, 2009 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions

Fire Lou

stay inhouse and place Brenly as interim manager, or even Trammel, bring up Ryno to be bench coach

by BrentCox on Aug 14, 2009 12:51 PM CDT reply actions

WELL WILL THAT HAPPEN ???

Or will the Cubs win the series with the Pirates ?? THen be back into the same position next week . Once the sale is on ink things will happen rather fast . ( Until then it is sit and wait and wonder )

by cubs north on Aug 14, 2009 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions

More like playing the hand that he dealt himself...

He got himself on a big market team and has the power to collaborate on roster decisions. He is not above criticism.

by Jerry Mumphrey on Aug 14, 2009 1:05 PM CDT reply actions

true

and with Lee, Soto, MB, Rami, Zambrano, Dempster, Lilly, Cotts, Johnson (for starters) all missing considerable time, you cannot blame him. It is not his fault LBR was playing 3rd while we had Scales/Blanco at 2B, or having HIll/Fox as his catcher options.

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Aug 14, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions

Exactly.

Lou was the one who said the Cubs lost the NLDS because they weren’t lefthanded enough. Got some more LH bats for himself. How’s that working out?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 14, 2009 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions

While Lou went overboard with the left handed hitter thing

To me it wasn’t so much that idea but who they got and Lou sure had a hand in that. I haven’t thought Lou was to blame for the way his team has performed but I sure think he should share the blame for the acquisitions and bench he started the season with , ones that are hamstringing him so much now. I’d keep Lou as a manager, I’d just pull way back on his influence on the players they pick in the offseason.

by Sandberg's evil twin on Aug 15, 2009 5:29 AM CDT up reply actions

if the team was healthy all season

sure, but he played with some interesting line ups and no bench due to injuries too often this season to lynch him

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Aug 14, 2009 1:07 PM CDT reply actions

What else is new...

…people always hope there is a simple solution, and the easy one is always to lay it on the manager.

We’ll see what happens, but if new ownership decides to make a change at manager without addressing issues from above the manager, you will see more of the same issues for years to come.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Aug 14, 2009 1:52 PM CDT reply actions

the issues that need to be addressed

involve giving the manager to much input on roster decisions

i’m not a big proponent of managers in general, i think the good ones are simply the ones who are less detrimental to a team’s results, so I don’t think Pineilla deserves all the blame in this instance… but with that said his poor skills as a manager (managing the pen) AND as a GM (remember Pineilla supported and was integral in bringing in Soriano, sitting down with him, etc. Pineilla’s public requests for a LH lineup was responsible for this off-season’s debacle)

by DartmouthCubsFan on Aug 14, 2009 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions

Roster selections...

…are the responsbility of the GM and ones that don’t pan out can not be blamed on a manager that may or may not have been pushing for certain players.

There are reasons some guys are better at simply managing and others are better at being a GM. At the end of the day, a good GM can cover for a weak manager, a lot easier than a good manager can cover for a weak GM.

The Cubs can keep rolling in a new manager every 3-4 years until the cows come home, but that will only be putting the proverbial band aid on the deeper issue.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Aug 14, 2009 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions

when the manager

openly campaigns for those moves i think the blame can be placed on both parties

by DartmouthCubsFan on Aug 14, 2009 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions

How do you know...

…Lou got the left handed bats he desired?

I have to say again, When it comes to final decisions on player selection, the buck always stops with the GM.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Aug 14, 2009 9:27 PM CDT up reply actions

Right, but...

… it clearly was Lou’s desires that Hendry was trying to satisfy.

He got the wrong guys.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 15, 2009 6:40 AM CDT up reply actions

He'll be back.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Aug 14, 2009 4:25 PM CDT reply actions

Here's a typically snarky Jeff Passan article...

…that addresses this topic:

LINKY

I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.

by daver on Aug 15, 2009 9:03 AM CDT reply actions

snarky

is an understatement. Wow.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Aug 16, 2009 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions

lou

pinella rarely gets fired because he commands so much respect. i believe he was fired once by guess who??? the 07team would have gone nowhere with a different mgr.

by NOMAR on Aug 16, 2009 8:22 AM CDT reply actions

mgr

if lou did leave i suggest bob brenly. listen to this guy. some of the things this guy says make a lot of sense.and he has something no living cub mgr has. a ring. worth a try.

by NOMAR on Aug 16, 2009 8:28 AM CDT reply actions