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Lou: From Manager Of The Year To...?



I feel the need to write a post about this, as I have been very stubborn in my support of Lou Piniella. I have excused his seemlingly disinterested attitude as "trying to be a calming influence", I have forgiven questionable moves because I do not have the audacity to think I know more than he does, and I have defended him on this site many, many times. I like to think of myself as pretty respectable and mild-mannered, but in light of this fanshot, it is time for me to admit I was wrong. Please note this is *NOT* designed as a Lou bashing session.

Last night while watching the game on MLB.TV, I was absolutely dumbfounded when Lou sent Sam Fuld to pinch hit for Ted Lilly. At that point of the game, it was not feasible to take Jake Fox out of the game as he still had another at bat left, therefore ensuring Sam Fuld would not be able to enter the game defensively. Our best defensive outfield, which Lou has said many times he wants out there in late innings, was made unavailable for a 2 out, nobody on pinch hit attempt. Quite honestly, I'm very glad that Al, and many others in the recap, were outraged at this as well. This was a mistake, any way you slice it. Not only did he bat before Fukudome (which made it two lefties in a row, which is much easier for the opposing team to manage), but again, he was wasted defensively. Jeff Baker or Alfonso Soriano would have been a much better option in that situation.

Star-divide

 

Secondly, it didn't turn out to matter much, but why in the world did he double switch in the 8th after Grabow got the first out?? We all know Marmol wasn't going to pitch more than the bottom of the 8th anyway, so you're basically picking your pinch hitter (and stuck with such) before you see what the at-bat is going to mean. I'm sure some will say, "well perhaps if we scored a few runs he could have left Marmol out there". Bring in Caridad, or Heilman or Marshall, but Marmol is a one inning guy and needs to be managed as such. Again, it didn't really turn out to mean much, but it seemed to me Lou was double switching just to double switch, and it made no sense to me whatsoever.

I'm glad he has finally seen it necessary to remove Kevin Gregg from his closer role. I beg of him to give the role to Angel Guzman. He has been by far our best reliever this year and deserves it, without question. If he so chooses to give it to Carlos Marmol, though, I really have to question what his intentions are.

One more note, and my rant will be complete. Lou has looked so disinterested for most of this year. Does anybody else agree with me, though, that the one moment where I saw otherwise was the last game before the all star break against St. Louis? Forget the fact that he was very creative in keeping Sean Marshall in the game, but he was standing up in the dugout the whole time, looking at charts, and you could really tell the gears in his head were turning. That's the Lou I want to see, the Lou I miss. The Lou that last year was Manager Of The Year.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Jim Frey, Don Zimmer All Over Again

Frey and Zimmer won NL Manager of the Year for the Cubs in 1984 and 1989, respectively, and were fired less than 2 years after winning the award. I don’t know if Piniella will be back in 2010 or not, but winning NL Manager of the Year seems to be the kiss of death for Cubs skippers.

"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Aug 18, 2009 11:06 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I disagree...

…most of the time it has been the Cubs front office that has been the “kiss of death” of Cub managers.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Aug 19, 2009 12:36 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just watched the replay of Monday night on ESPN News

I didn’t notice this from LF. I thought Lou came out to talk to Gregg in the 9th — but ESPN alleges Lou was there to remove him, but nobody was up in the pen.

Has anybody picked up on this?

Is Lou…..finished? Is he not paying attention? Shouldn’t Trammel suggest — the pen be ready?

What the fuck is going on?

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Aug 18, 2009 1:32 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

i might be wrong

But I think it’s rothschild who is responsible for getting those guys up, but ultimately lou is supposed to oversee all of that. Very, very poorly managed game last night, hence the post. :)

"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly

by ambrosiadreams on Aug 18, 2009 1:34 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

Fairly certain you're wrong.

and if you aren’t, then Lou isn’t really a manager. He’s an old dude taking a nap in the dugout. Telling someone who to get up, and when, is one of the only things a manager does once the game starts. If Lou has delegated that……..

by Illicat on Aug 18, 2009 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ESPN is wrong.

Lou came out briefly — apparently to tell Gregg to put Kouzmanoff on. The plate umpire reminded him that it was an official visit, and Lou acknowledged he knew that. There was no way Gregg was coming out of the game.

ESPN is just plain wrong. As usual.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al on Aug 18, 2009 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't managers usually

signal an intentional walk from the dugout. There is absolutely no reason to give up a trip to the mound in a situation like that. The least he could have done was walk all the way to mound and actually talk to him, instead of stopping halfway and going back to the dugout. I can’t buy that he was just signaling for an intentional walk.

"In an ocean or in a glass, cool water is such a gas."

by markleonette on Aug 18, 2009 7:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're right, there really is no reason to go out there...

…. but there was also no way Gregg was coming out of the game. If the ESPN announcers said so, they’re delusional.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al on Aug 18, 2009 7:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Int walks...

…are signaled from the dugout, but it’s common for a manager to go out and talk to a pitcher about how he wants to pitch to the next batter after the int walk.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Aug 19, 2009 12:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But he didn't go out and talk to him

He stopped half way to the mound and went back to the dugout.

"In an ocean or in a glass, cool water is such a gas."

by markleonette on Aug 19, 2009 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And so?

Maybe he didn’t need to do any more than that, and the umpire was just reminding him that counted as a visit.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al on Aug 19, 2009 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If he didn't need to actually talk to the pitcher, why even leave the dugout

That’s all I’m saying. If you can accomplish what you need from the dugout, then don’t waste a trip. It obviously didn’t matter, because the game lasted one more batter, but something was not right about the situation (whether Lou was sleepwalking and woke up halfway to the mound, or he thought somebody was ready in the bullpen, or whatever, I don’t know the reason). ESPN2 switched to the Cubs game after the Cardinals game ended, and the Padres announcers had never seen anything like it.

"In an ocean or in a glass, cool water is such a gas."

by markleonette on Aug 19, 2009 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, I agree with you.

Maybe he couldn’t get Gregg’s attention. Who knows what the reason was? In any case, there was no way Gregg was coming out of that game.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al on Aug 19, 2009 8:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

YES THAT IS WHAT IT

looked like to me also . No one paying attention to the bullpen. No or poor communication ….

by cubs north on Aug 18, 2009 11:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dumbass of the Year

"He can't hit, he can't field, he can't run—all he can do is beat you."

by Itchy on Aug 18, 2009 1:41 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Good post. The Cubs are about out of time to turn it around..

So the question is what if they don’t? They’re to the point where they have to probably go 5-1 on the rest of the road trip to make up for a very winnable game last night. It’s hard to finger what’s gone wrong this year.. overpaid and undermotivated players? Poor management? Dispassionate clubhouse culture fieled by ownership questions? Unreported strife between players/coaches? With the exception of Lee and Lilly, none of our core players have had very productive years, and we’re only in this at all because of unexpected contributions from youngsters and new blood (Wells, Guzman, Fox, Baker, Grabow, etc). It makes it hard to figure out who/what to blame. At least for me.

by DisCUBbobulated on Aug 18, 2009 3:27 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

DISASTER.....

I think your list leads up to the failure of the 2009 team . They are not playing as a team but 9 players on the field .

by cubs north on Aug 18, 2009 11:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here's my top 10 reasons in no particular order.

1. Very erratic bullpen
2. Injuries to Soto, Aram, and most of the starting staff.
3. Overpaid, underachieving veterans that are bad fit with each other- Dome, Sori, and Bradley (OF is flipping mess!)
4. Lou’s inexplicable late-inning moves.
5. The Riot’s defense, or lack thereof.
6. Miles being on the roster.
7. Fonty’s defficiencies at the plate.
8. Trading DeRosa
9. Jim Hendry for putting together this group.
10. The cosmos

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Sir Winston Churchill

by propheteer on Aug 19, 2009 12:06 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

holding

Bible study at the old folks home with the Tony Dungy’s book as a reference.

by bigz38fan on Aug 18, 2009 3:49 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I made this comment in another post ...

but starting Fontenot last night over Baker (and hitting him sixth) reminded me of Dusty starting Freddy Bynum in 2006 over Ryan Theriot. At least Dusty could be excused, considering the move didn’t have playoff implications.

But how does Lou remove his hottest hitter on the same day that he has to play his worst quasi-regular, Aaron freaking Miles?

Fontenot has been a huge disappointment, considering how much the Cubs were counting on him. For too long, his defenders used the playing-a-new-position argument — which I argued was crap two months ago.

As for pinch-hitting Fuld, I totally agree. Throwing out the defensive-replacement issue, both Baker and Soriano had MUCH greater chance of going deep. With two outs, tied 0-0, I would opt for a right-handed power hitter over a left-handed slap hitter.

What is Lou doing?

by elgato on Aug 18, 2009 4:38 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

This is exactly the reason why I wanted Girardi
Lou has looked so disinterested for most of this year.

Some new, young blood is needed at manager next year. He’s had much more talent than any other Cubs manager in recent memory, and has done nothing but win a decent amount of regular season games and lose playoff games at an alarming clip.

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Sir Winston Churchill

by propheteer on Aug 18, 2009 6:24 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Agree on Girardi

For some reason he’s not popular around here anymore, but he was the obvious choice three years ago. Unfortunately, they won’t have him to choose from for a while.

"In an ocean or in a glass, cool water is such a gas."

by markleonette on Aug 18, 2009 7:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He isn't the problem

Piniella has been around long enough to know good players from bad, guys who are trying from guys who are mailing it in, how to make out a lineup and how to manage a game. But his hands are tied by bad front office decisions. It wasn’t his decision to give that ridiculous contract to Soriano, to sign Bradley, to jettison Wood and DeRosa. But, like any employee in any business, he’s expected to make lemonade out of the lemons he’s given. In a rational world, he’d squeeze some of those lemons right out of town and play young, enthusiastic guys.

by bringbackbanks on Aug 18, 2009 10:16 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Exactly right!!!!

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Aug 19, 2009 12:39 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't get why so many people see this as black/white

that either the manager is clean of blame and the front office gets all the blame or vice versa.

Come on – don’t tell me that Lou Piniella and his absurd quest for left-handedness had nothing to do with Jim Hendry trading DeRosa so Fontenot could be a full-time player. Don’t tell me he had nothing to do with recruiting Soriano and demanding a player like Bradley.

To say that Lou is making lemonade out of lemons ignores the fact that he made out the menu and handed Jim Hendry a purchase order for a case of lemons, a bag of sugar, and a juicer.

If Piniella has been around long enough to know good players from bad, why did Piniella take so long to realize Micah Hoffpauir isn’t a major leaguer? Why was Fox the last thing he tried at 3B? Why did he stick with Heilman, Howry, and Gregg while making Jim dump Ohman, Eyre, and Wuertz?

It’s not black and white and it’s as far from “exactly right” as you get.

Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.

by DGU on Aug 19, 2009 6:17 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's exactly correct.

Lou told Hendry what he wanted. Unfortunately, Hendry didn’t get the right people.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al on Aug 19, 2009 8:15 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe the Cubs...

…should make their next manager the GM as well. That way, it will be clear where the accountability goes.

I don’t get this, I really don’t. GM’s have always been 100% responsble for player selection and I fail to see why any responsibility should be placed anywhere else. A GM’s job is to listen to a lot of people (scouts, asst. GM, managers, etc.) on the type of players available and who they should acquire. In the end, the GM chooses the path and goes with it. If the GM can’t distinguish good advice from bad, then he either hired the wrong people or he doesn’t have the baseball smarts to filter through the information and make good decisions. Either way, the buck stops with the GM on player selection!!!

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Aug 19, 2009 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

I think both people were wrong. Lou thought the Cubs lost for the wrong reasons. Hendry got the wrong people to fulfill Lou’s desires.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al on Aug 19, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Both people were wrong" - a revolutionary statement!

I don’t know why we keep seeing sides taken where you have the Hendry attackers and Lou defenders v. the Lou attackers and Hendry defenders.

We liked Lou because he brought important correctives to Jim Hendry – raising the club’s value of OBP and putting sensible restraints on starting pitching loads – those are just two of the bigger things he did.

But it’s become clear that Lou Piniella destroys bullpens and has no ability to put players at ease. That is why he will not be able to get the Chicago Cubs to the World Series no matter how many more years he’s here. Cub players clench under the pressure of “the curse.” Lou at the helm only makes it worse. And a solid bullpen is essential at the end of a long season. But Lou’s worn his ’pen stars down by the end of the season.

Jim Hendry hired Lou, so blaming Lou does not absolve Jim Hendry.

That said, going back to MPH73’s “buck stops here” argument. I’m not sure your history is accurate. Halfway through this article on Billy Beane it mentions the ways Beane took power away from the field manager and shifted the way people looked at baseball management. I think Jim Hendry continues to be a little more old school about this, giving his manager’s more power than other clubs. That doesn’t mean the buck doesn’t stop with Hendry. It just means that the original post by bringbackbanks, is overly simplistic and not particularly helpful in diagnosing what-went-wrong (assuming that the season ends up wrong).

Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.

by DGU on Aug 19, 2009 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let me say this...

…lets just assume for a moment that Lou has done a crappy job and that is a factor in why the team is where it is (I don’t believe that, but this is hypothetical).

That would mean that the player selections made by Hendry were not all that bad, and should have delivered much better results, correct? Now, if that is the case, that means Hendry has now hired two bad managers in a row that have failed to get the most out of the players he has given them. In most worlds, a GM gets the chance to hire two managers, and if they both fail, it is time for the GM to go.

Thoughts?

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Aug 19, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Define "failure"

Jim Hendry has gotten good teams to the playoffs 3 times this decade. No, we aren’t running like the two big AL East teams or the Braves of yesteryore, but there’s a lot of “failure” in baseball worse than Jim Hendry’s Cubs.

That said, the way this season is heading is a big disappointment. There were clear failures in roster construction, but I do not believe those failures were significant enough to put the blame of this season solely on Jim Hendry. The reason this season is such a disappointment is that EVERYONE in baseball thought the Cubs would run away with the NL Central. So, find me the guy who disagreed and maybe we’ll interview him for the GM job.

Here’s my question – if it was just Soriano, or just Soto, or just Miles who was playing under what they’d done last year and could reasonably be expected to do this year, well, then you blame the player or the player’s health. But when it’s so many of them, aren’t you at least tempted to step back and say, “What’s happening to make all these players perform so badly? Could poor management have something to do with it?”

That said, I don’t think Lou’s done a completely bad job. He’s got his strengths and his weaknesses. It’s gotten to the point, though, that I think his weaknesses make him incompatible with the Cubs winning the WS.

Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.

by DGU on Aug 19, 2009 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ok...

…so I have to ask – do you trust Hendry to hire his 3rd manager and get it right?

Also, will hiring the right manager in your eyes be the key ingrediant to improving the organizations chances of winning a world series?

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Aug 19, 2009 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think Hendry learns

and I think he’s more likely to do better than a lot of other potential GMs.

I’m a little worried about Ryne Sandberg as the next manager. I loved him as a player. I’m not convinced he’ll be a good manager.

Let me be clear – it’s not that I think Lou is a “crappy manager.” He can win with other teams. Do you think he is capable of getting a Cubs team to relax in the post-season?

Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.

by DGU on Aug 19, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll reply like this...

…most of the managers in the big leagues right now, could win a WS with the Cubs – if they had the right players.

IMO, we put far too much emphasis on whether a manager can make players relax etc.. A good player should be able to perform with a variety of different personalities that could be managing the club. Dusty was the king at making players relax, and was adored by his players, and I don’t think many would want him back at this point.

Also, there have been many successful managers that are edgy and aren’t real warm and fuzzy with their players – LaRussa is a prime example along with Leyland in Detroit.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Aug 19, 2009 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree that people tend to put too much on the manager.

Lots of time the wind is just blowing the wrong way on a season (to over-generalize what is always a lot of factors) and it’s easy to blame the manager because he’s the manager. I don’t blame Lou for this season exclusively. I don’t think he bears the majority of the blame.

But after watching the Bradley situation this year, it opened a vista of hindsight. Lou cannot help players relax and it hurt Bradley to start this year and it hurt Dome last year. He does not put players in positions where they will succeed – add Fontenot to that list this year, too. He puts players in situations that will stretch them as players, and sometimes they rise to the occassion (Theriot has grown into SS a lot better than it looked like he could last year), but sometimes it shatters them (Fontenot playing 3B against LH pitching was just way too much to throw at him).

In other situations, (Cinci earlier in Lou’s career) his positives outweigh those negatives. But in Chicago at this point, I just don’t think Lou will be able to get multiple playoff victories.

Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.

by DGU on Aug 19, 2009 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I understand...

…but my point is this; you are looking for the absolute perfect match of manager personality and player mix. Considering you have 20+ players, it is highly unlikely you will ever have a situation where a manager’s personality is a perfect match for each player.

I can recall people calling for Dusty’s head because he didn’t hold people accountable and they were too relaxed and didn’t care. Now, we are getting the opposite and it will never end no matter which manager you bring in.

You see this in all prof sports and it is really misguided energy. The last guy was laid back so bring in someone who is the opposite, and on and on the cycle goes. In the end, the organization needs to give a manager enough good players and that is the recipe for sustained success.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Aug 19, 2009 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with your critique of the cycle.

My problem with Dusty was not that he was laid back – it was that he has no sense of modern baseball strategy, of how to protect pitchers, and of how to value OBP. That’s precisely why we all loved what Lou brought to the team when he first came. I’d much rather have Lou than Dusty, for what it’s worth.

Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.

by DGU on Aug 19, 2009 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here's my question.

Do the Cubs get to the playoffs in 2007 with, say, Joe Girardi as manager. I think not.

Lou did a fine job in 2007. That was a credit to him.

Lou pushed buttons in 2008 — the players all had fine years.

Lou tried pushbutton managing again in 2009. He failed at that. He’s got to get the 2007 fire back, because this team needs that.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al on Aug 19, 2009 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think 2007...

…was likely one of the best managing years of Lou’s career. He picked off the low hanging fruit that Hendry didn’t recognize (Barrett, Murton, etc.) and sent them on their way. He also identified some guys who could contribute and they did. Considering the dissaray the club was in around June 1st, it was a nice job.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Aug 19, 2009 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which makes it even more puzzling...

… why he can’t do that now.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al on Aug 19, 2009 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not that simple...

…every year stands on it’s own merits with unique circumstances.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Aug 19, 2009 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

lou

i still think this was the best move the cubs made.but. is lou losing interest??? a lot of people to blame for this season. no need to go into it because we all know who they are. this year has been about as much fun as 2006. i would still like to see brenly down the line. NO TRAMMELL PLEASE. and i doubt larry will survive the next purge.

by NOMAR on Aug 22, 2009 9:17 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

what is your problem with Trammel?

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Aug 22, 2009 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

trammel

sorry but i really dont want a manager who lost 119 games in one season.he just didnt do a good job with the tigers.

by NOMAR on Aug 23, 2009 7:06 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

It was Trammell's fault?

Interesting theory.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Aug 24, 2009 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Managers aren't the magic formula...

…to success for any team, and any manager can be critized for decision making throughout the season.

Let me give you an example; in yesterday’s game, Ramirez came up in the 8th with runners on 2nd and 3rd. At this point, this was basically the ballgame, because a base hit would have tied the game. Ramirez was 4 for 4 in his career against who he was facing and 1st base was open. I thought for sure, Torre would walk Ramirez, because he is simply the best hitter on the club and his success against the pitcher. Well, Torre chooses to pitch to Ramirez and he hits a rocket line drive right to a guy for the last out. If that ball is hit a few feet either way, the game is tied and Torre (IMO) would have made a stupid decision.

I’d guarantee, 99% of the people watching the game never noticed this, but if Ramirez ties that game and the Cubs won, they would have been all over it.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Aug 23, 2009 12:23 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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100px-boisehawkscaplogo_small Josh77

Small shawndgoldman