Closing Time
ESPN.com's Jayson Stark has some comments on the closers for various teams; the Cubs aren't the only contending team with problems.
He also discusses Billy Wagner:
A scout who covers the Florida State League reports, after watching Billy Wagner throw, that there is "no doubt" Wagner could help somebody in the big leagues if the Mets can find a trade partner.
"I saw him twice, and he was impressive," the scout said. "He was throwing 92 to 94 [mph], and he was throwing strikes. The breaking-ball command was not real good. But everything else was the old Billy Wagner."
Two teams that other clubs' scouts believe have some interest are the Rays and Marlins. But Wagner's $10.5 million contract (which has more than $2.5 million remaining through the end of the season, plus a $1 million buyout of his 2010 option) likely would be too pricey for both of those teams. But other clubs believe that the Mets will have to eat a major chuck of that money if they expect to land a decent prospect in return for Wagner.
He meant "chunk", not "chuck", of course. There has been discussion here about whether Wagner would be a good pickup for the Cubs. I said no originally, but that was before reading this.
Now I say "maybe", and I'd do it ONLY if the Mets ate virtually all of that contract. Either that, or get the Mets to take Aaron Miles' 2010 deal in return for the Cubs taking Wagner.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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I like Wagner against my better judgement.
He has been kind of an asshole and irritated his teammates in both Philadelphia and New York but he is the kind
of take no prisoners kind of guy that might do the Cubs a world of good.
I hear the Mets want a decent prospect if they are going to eat most of the salary and it might be worth it depending on who they want.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
Yeah, I'd agree with that.
But see if you could get them to take Miles to equalize the money.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I doubt the Mets would do that
They may eat most of the salary but they do want a decent prospect if they do . I mean they might take Miles IF you pay Wagner but
they are STILL going to want a prospect as well.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Aug 20, 2009 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed.
Much like the B.J. Ryan signing, if it costs the Cubs little or nothing (or gets rids of Miles), the potential return is well worth the small investment.
Harry Caray: Marshall is going back to LA to get cocaine for his injured foot.
Steve Stone: Harry, that’s Novocaine.
by Julio Zuleta's Voodoo on Aug 20, 2009 5:27 PM CDT reply actions
I dunno...
Wagner’s done it before, and maybe has good stuff left, but how much faith does anyone want to put in a reliever who may or may not be over the hill to come in for the last month and all of a sudden close well? Then again, do we have any other choices? Ugh… why couldn’t Marmol have just thrown strikes this year???????
by DisCUBbobulated on Aug 20, 2009 5:27 PM CDT reply actions
Of course, how much faith do we want to put in Kevin Gregg or the 2009 version
of Carlos Marmol. This is a case where I would rely on scouting reports. If his stuff is there, I would say it’s a good risk.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
I have to reluctantly agree with you.. it does suck to have to take that risk.
In the end, if we have someone who can close a baseball game, than I vote “aye”.
by DisCUBbobulated on Aug 20, 2009 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually, Miles can probably do that.
So maybe the Mets would take him.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Miles is only a bit below average defensively at 2B for his career
2.5 runs below average per 150 games
It's shocking what you can miss sometimes. The amazing color changing card trick.
by shake n bake on Aug 20, 2009 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions
according to UZR
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1844&position=2B#fielding
It's shocking what you can miss sometimes. The amazing color changing card trick.
by shake n bake on Aug 20, 2009 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions
and he's above average in not making errors
he just has crappy range, arm and skill at turning DPs.
It's shocking what you can miss sometimes. The amazing color changing card trick.
by shake n bake on Aug 20, 2009 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions
So why not just use a league average replacement instead?
Oh, wait – I didn’t say that! Take him, Omar Minaya! Take him!
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Sure would be nice to have Wagner on the team
If you can do it, I’d love having a closer option there for sure. Couldn’t be much worse than stinky ben giving it up nightly.
by Sandberg's evil twin on Aug 20, 2009 5:45 PM CDT reply actions
No downside
He could easily be the 2009 version of Norm Charlton, circa 1995, when the Mariners led by Lou Piniella signed him off the scrap heap for the final two months, paying him only the minimum after Philadelphia released him. Charlton then blew everyone away, propelling the Mariners back from a double-digit deficit to overtake the then California Angels for the AL West division crown. John Smoltz also would have fit this mold nicely, but we missed on that one. Wagner would make up for it.
Not only did the Mariners have a much larger deficit to overcome, they also had a much, much worse bullpen situation to fix. I never thought about how similar the situations were until just now.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
Lou was the manager, as you point out.
If you could wake him up long enough to remember this maybe he’d do it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I think it's never been more obvious right now
How much a solid closer would help this team and give them a chance to go on a winning streak for awhile. It would also take the pressure off marmol and guz…something they could surely use.
by Sandberg's evil twin on Aug 20, 2009 5:59 PM CDT reply actions
While our manager is taking his dugout snooze.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Aug 20, 2009 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions
I've thought as well that
Our hitters would surely benefit from it. They seem to be pressing during a tight game, no doubt worried that they need to score runs to counter a bullpen collapse…having them relaxed just trying to hit the ball would help to me as well.
by Sandberg's evil twin on Aug 20, 2009 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions
that didn't even rhyme.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Aug 20, 2009 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions
What would be the Mets' motivation to make that deal, Al?
Are you saying that you want to give up real prospects for Wagner? You can’t have them eat the whole deal or take Miles tragic deal unless you’re going to give up something. I’d rather see the Cubs eat part of the salary, if that’s possible. What I don’t want to see is the Cubs give up real prospects for the hope that Wagner can be effective. Then again, it ain’t my money.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
You've got a point there.
The cost of getting him would surely factor into it. For myself I think they could be motivated like us with Woody…trying to avoid having an injured player with a big salary to rely on. Getting closure from that does motivate teams, they would know a team wouldn’t take him without contributing to his salary…like gagne, peavy. Giving up Vitters would be a bitter pill to swallow.
by Sandberg's evil twin on Aug 20, 2009 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Right, and I wasn't even thinking anything remotely close to Vitters
I wouldn’t want to give up anything more than a C-level prospect, and that’s if the Mets are picking up a substantial amount of salary. The fact is, the Mets are done, and don’t have a need for him, having overhauled their bullpen over the winter. He’d likely be a pain in the ass as a sixth or seventh inning guy, so they are motivated to move him. But they’ll still have to get something back if they’re going to pay the freight.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
Of course you'd have to give a prospect in addition to Miles.
But maybe that’d be a way to equalize the money.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Before we erect a monument
to Wagner, let’s remember he is 38 years old and he’s been throwing to AA hitters. the Mets have their own problems. Why would they eat his salary if he had any value to them? And, if he does, why would they give him away for a guy like Miles, unless his first name was Bruce.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
I would be for this if the cost was low and if we could get rid of Miles
I’m mainly just considered of getting rid of Miles though…That guys is like a bad luck charm, like a dirty, molting rabbits foot with a lousy goatee.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Aug 20, 2009 6:40 PM CDT reply actions
Aaron Miles an upgrade for Mets?
Louis Castillo is pretty lousy and disliked in NY. You never know…
Unlikely but he did cost them dearly last night
Failed to cover 2nd on a routine ground out with two out. Braves scored 5 more runs in the inning.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Aug 20, 2009 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions
At least Miles doesn't drop pop flies with 2 outs in the 9th inning....
Imagine if any 2B did that this year!
Plus, Cora is out for the year now
and Reyes is too, more than likely. They’ll need some help in the infield.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
They don't need help in the infield for this year
They’re not winning any divisions or wildcards.
Sad but true.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
I think you would
have to consider making a deal. A decent prospect, no top 10 level type, maybe Wellington Castillo. Hendry would have to be on the phone.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
Get Cashner up here... he looked like closer material when we drafted him.
We need to develop our own closer from within the system, instead of shelling out more millions for somebody else’s crud.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Now? In a pennant race?
Forget it. You don’t put guys like that in a pennant race.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Seriously Al?
For one… we’re only in a pennant race by mathematics. We stink.
Secondly, a guy like Cashner (or a comparable farmhand), with good stuff, could actually get the job done effectively for a month because of lack of scouting reports at the major league level. Remember how effective Jeff Spellcheck was in his first go-around?
Third, it beats making a deal and picking up salary for some over the hill has been, who’ll just blow saves like Kevin Gregg.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
Closing Time
Closing time, open all the doors and let you out into the world
Closing time, turn all the lights on over boy and every girl
Closing time, one last call for alcohol, so finish your whiskey or beer
Closing time, you don’t have to go home, but you can’t stay here
I know who I want to take me home
I know who I want to take me home
I know who I want to take me home
Take me home… home…
Closing time, time for you to go out to the places you will be from
Closing time, this room won’t be open till your brother’s or your sister’s come
So gather up your jackets, moving to the exits, I hope you have found a friend.
Closing time, every new beginning comes from some other beginning’s end, yeah
I know who I want to take me home
I know who I want to take me home
I know who I want to take me home
Take me home… home…
Closing time, time for you to go out to the places you will be from…
I know who I want to take me home
I know who I want to take me home
I know who I want to take me home
Take me home… home…
I know who I want to take me home
I know who I want to take me home
I know who I want to take me home
Take me home… home…
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
"Closing Time"
Ah we’re drinking and we’re dancing
and the band is really happening
and the Johnny Walker wisdom running high
And my very sweet companion
she’s the Angel of Compassion
she’s rubbing half the world against her thigh
And every drinker every dancer
lifts a happy face to thank her
the fiddler fiddles something so sublime
all the women tear their blouses off
and the men they dance on the polka-dots
and it’s partner found, it’s partner lost
and it’s hell to pay when the fiddler stops:
it’s CLOSING TIME
Yeah the women tear their blouses off
and the men they dance on the polka-dots
and it’s partner found, it’s partner lost
and it’s hell to pay when the fiddler stops:
it’s CLOSING TIME
Ah we’re lonely, we’re romantic
and the cider’s laced with acid
and the Holy Spirit’s crying, “Where’s the beef?”
And the moon is swimming naked
and the summer night is fragrant
with a mighty expectation of relief
So we struggle and we stagger
down the snakes and up the ladder
to the tower where the blessed hours chime
and I swear it happened just like this:
a sigh, a cry, a hungry kiss
the Gates of Love they budged an inch
I can’t say much has happened since
but CLOSING TIME
I swear it happened just like this:
a sigh, a cry, a hungry kiss
the Gates of Love they budged an inch
I can’t say much has happened since
CLOSING TIME
I loved you for your beauty
but that doesn’t make a fool of me:
you were in it for your beauty too
and I loved you for your body
there’s a voice that sounds like God to me
declaring, declaring, declaring that your body’s really you
And I loved you when our love was blessed
and I love you now there’s nothing left
but sorrow and a sense of overtime
and I missed you since the place got wrecked
And I just don’t care what happens next
looks like freedom but it feels like death
it’s something in between, I guess
it’s CLOSING TIME
Yeah I missed you since the place got wrecked
By the winds of change and the weeds of sex
looks like freedom but it feels like death
it’s something in between, I guess
it’s CLOSING TIME
Yeah we’re drinking and we’re dancing
but there’s nothing really happening
and the place is dead as Heaven on a Saturday night
And my very close companion
gets me fumbling gets me laughing
she’s a hundred but she’s wearing
something tight
and I lift my glass to the Awful Truth
which you can’t reveal to the Ears of Youth
except to say it isn’t worth a dime
And the whole damn place goes crazy twice
and it’s once for the devil and once for Christ
but the Boss don’t like these dizzy heights
we’re busted in the blinding lights,
busted in the blinding lights
of CLOSING TIME
The whole damn place goes crazy twice
and it’s once for the devil and once for Christ
but the Boss don’t like these dizzy heights
we’re busted in the blinding lights,
busted in the blinding lights
of CLOSING TIME
Oh the women tear their blouses off
and the men they dance on the polka-dots
It’s CLOSING TIME
And it’s partner found, it’s partner lost
and it’s hell to pay when the fiddler stops
It’s CLOSING TIME
I swear it happened just like this:
a sigh, a cry, a hungry kiss
It’s CLOSING TIME
The Gates of Love they budged an inch
I can’t say much has happened since
But CLOSING TIME
I loved you when our love was blessed
I love you now there’s nothing left
But CLOSING TIME
I miss you since the place got wrecked
By the winds of change and the weeds of sex.
[ www.azlyrics.com ]
Tom Waits?
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Yerrrr baby, a 90s classic.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
PTBNL?
Miles plus a low level prospect if we don’t make the playoffs, mid-level if we make the playoffs, high level prospect if we get to the WS.
by CubbieFaninOhio on Aug 20, 2009 7:10 PM CDT reply actions
i like it minimize the risk but give
The mets an incentive to do it. Actually, I wish the cubs had the dollars to go after the reds closer, cordero.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
by davidalanu on Aug 20, 2009 7:17 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I can't imagine they'd do that
What’s the incentive for them? I imagine this is going to be a deal where they eat the salary and get a decent prospect in return. There’s enough teams searching for pen help that I think a team would bite.
IF the MEts
took Aaron Miles, I would personally send Jim Hendy either a box of Krispy Cremes, or some really nice chocolates.
Billy Wagner
Al, I really think it is moot whether he would be good for the Cubs. They are not interested in trading for anyone it seems.
Well...
Wagner just pitched a perfect inning for the Mets tonight with 2 Ks, so we can put aside the “only getting minor-league hitters” part to rest. The reasons against doing it are slipping away… and he might even be worth the risk they have to pay part of his contract next year. Let’s not forget, this is a better-than-average closer when healthy… he fits what the Cubs need for 2009 and 2010. This might be the best chance the Cubs get to improve in this area, especially if they can get the Mets to cover much of his salary in exchange for a PTNBL according to the level of his performance, as someone suggested earlier.
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also
He had to retire Chipper Jones (fly out) and Brian McCann (K) in the inning. So, it wasn’t just a soft landing. he touched 96 on the game according to the AP recap.
The SBN Mets affiliate (http://www.amazinavenue.com) also said he most likely will have Type A Free Agent status. So the Mets will definitely not be giving him up for nothing and will be offering him arbitration if they keep him. Amazin Avenue also said Wagner has said he won’t go anywhere he can’t be the closer. Which is plenty fine by me, since I would want him to be closer for the rest of this season and next season. I would have no problem if this team offered him arbitration, which would almost replace the mistake of not offering Kerry Wood arbitration, and then have him either accept because he will be the closer or try to work out a multi-year deal with him if he declines or take the pick.
I wasn’t for this before reading about his arbitration status, but now the Cubs should be willing to give up a medium-level prospect for him since they’ll at least get one back. If not, they’ll have fixed their problem at closer for 2010 and maybe even save this season.
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by jameslcrockett on Aug 21, 2009 1:42 AM CDT up reply actions
They're taking a big chance if they keep him and offer him arbitration.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
big chance of what?
he’s already publicly stated he’s not coming back to New York… AND not signing anywhere unless he’s the closer. The Mets already went out and acquired two guys who could close for them. He’s not going back there unless they move Rodriguez out of the role… and they already owe him way too much money to do that.
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by jameslcrockett on Aug 21, 2009 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions
withe the release of livan hernandez
and the implosion of bobby parnell; i would be willing tobet that the mets regret not giving heilman a fair shot at the the # 4 or 5 spot. maybe the mets would give up billy & pay part of his salary in return for heilman
interesting idea.
But wasn’t Heilman widely disliked in New York, though? Would Minaya risk pissing off an already disgruntled fanbase even more by bringing him back? Plus, wasn’t Aaron himself rather unhappy with the Mets organization?
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Wagner
If he is only hitting 92-94 with his fastball and had poor command of his breaking ball, why get all excited about him?
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
that would make him a lot more interesting
without a high 90s fastball, he is not worth much.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 21, 2009 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions
FWIW, Wagner got positive reviews on MLB Network last night.
I guess it wouldn’t hurt to look into a deal. I doubt Hendry pursues it, though. Maybe if the Cubs were a little closer in the standings. He’ll probably just roll with Marmol for the rest of the season in the hopes that Carlos can finally take possession of the job. Gregg looked pretty good in a set up role last night. Maybe he can play out his contract adequately enough there.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
I'd do it.. but I disagree with one thing
Now I say “maybe”, and I’d do it ONLY if the Mets ate virtually all of that contract.
Wagner is only making $8.5M next season. If he stays healthy he’ll almost certainly be worth that much money. Hendry is probably going to try to sign a new closer this off-season and I’d rather him get Wagner now than the free agents that will be hitting the market this Winter.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Aug 21, 2009 11:47 AM CDT reply actions
Next season
isn’t guaranteed. He has an option for that much for next season. I would want them to decline the option, offer him arbitration and try to work out a 2-year, incentive-laden deal. I’d want that even if they had to wait until the winter to get him. I would make him a priority, since a healthy Wagner fixes many of the Cubs bullpen problems.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Aug 21, 2009 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions
You think the Mets want Aaron Miles?
You might as well suggest that they trade a bag of balls for Miles. A C prospect would be worth more than Miles because the Mets wouldn’t have to pay him anything
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
You'd have to give them a prospect AND Miles.
The point would be to equalize the money that Wagner’s deal calls for. it’s not quite the same, but the Cubs might be willing to take it if they could get rid of Miles’ deal.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Sure, they would like it, but my question is why would the Mets want it?
They’d be happy to spend that extra $$ on something useful
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
what I'm trying to say is
I think the mets would rather just have the prospect with NO Miles. He has negative value
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
I understand that.
But sometimes contracts can be swapped just to equalize money, despite value.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

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