Why can't we find young talent?
In a post yesterday I joked that the last position player from our minor league system to play for the cubs for five years was Mark Grace. If that seems ridiculous to you, it should. This problem is its virtually true. The only players to come out of our farm system since 1980, and played five seasons for the cubs is Grace, and Dunston. I looked at the other teams in our division to see how many they have had and the numbers dwarf the cubs.
1.) Astros- biggio, Berkman, Caminiti, Glen Davis, Bill Doran, Ensberg, Luis Gonzalez, Terry Puhl, Richard Hidalgo, Hunter Pence.
2.) Brewers-Surhoff, John Jaha, Prince Fielder, Jim Ganter, Ricky Weeks, J.J. Hardy, Jeff Cirillo, Goeff Jenkins, Robin Yount, Paul Molitar. They will soon add Hart, and Braun to that list.
3.)Pirates- Kendall, Tony Pena,Kevin Young, Bonilla, Bonds, Carlos Carcia, Jose Lind, Omar Moreno, Dave Parker
4.)Cardinals-Y. Molina, Pujols, Keith Hernandez, Tommy Herr, Todd Zeile, Terry Pendleton, Vince Coleman, Ray Lankford.
5.)Reds- Jason Larue, Aaron Boone, Barry Larkin, Adam Dunn, Eric Davis, Reggie Sanders, Dave Conception, Chris Sabo, Dan Driessin, Ron Oester.
Why can't our management seem to find one diamond in the ruff(is that right). Are we unlucky, do we need better management, more scouts, new scouts, do we favor veterans, do we bring young players up to soon? I don't have the answers but it seems something has to change in the minor league system for the cubs. Its a young mans game, and the cubs are getting older. It seems by choice!
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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You forget
It’s not just the position players. Carlos Zambrano, Carlos Marmol and even Kerry Wood have been tremendous benefits to us. Then there’s the future Hall of Famer Greg Maddux, who the Cubs permitted to walk. The Cubs farm system has actually been improving, which is something important to note. The I-Cubs kept the parent club in contention during some pretty lean times.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Greg Maddux and Lee Smith
Since 1980, Maddux has had the best career of any starting pitcher who came up with the Cubs. In 1980, Lee Smith came up with the Cubs and went on to a very good career. It’s too bad that Maddux had his best years with the Braves and Smith had his best years with the Cardinals.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Too many say Smith is not
That’s what happens when someone comes along in your position and eclipses your numbers shortly after your candidacy again. It happened to Ron Santo and it happened to Lee Smith, both of whom are Cubs. Of course, Stan Hack never go this due either.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Mark Grace, Jerome Walton (had a good start), Rafael Palmerio (traded), Mark Prior (injured), Ryan Sanberg (we traded for him)
I think the Cubs have had more than you give them credit for.
by Cubsfan Waveland on Aug 21, 2009 3:17 PM CDT reply actions
Dan Driessen and Ron Oester came to the Reds before 1980.
As did Molitor, Yount and Gantner for the Brewers.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Correct.
Now, it’s true that the Cubs didn’t develop much young positional talent in the 70’s either.
But they did develop pitchers all along — Reuschel, Sutter, Smith among others.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Not the point.
How many pennants did the Brewers win with all those guys? One more than the Cubs.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
sorry that was a sarcastic comment
but you are talking about people from 35 years ago. I am referring to prospects in the present or the lack of them.
the present?
you mean the 2007 and 2008 division winning team?
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 21, 2009 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Right, but...
… you were the one who included those players in your list above. They started before 1980.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Then there would be even fewer people on it from the other teams.
Incidentally, you left one player off your list, by your own criterion: Joe Girardi came out of the farm system and played seven years as a Cub.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
these were just players who
played five years or more for the team they came up with after 1980. Conception is a stretch, but he did play for the Reds from 1980 to 1986. As for Maddux and Palmeiro we traded them so that is a whole other topic to contend with. Does anyone find it interesting that we have not been able to produce a steady position player from our farm system for nearly 15 years.
Ryan Theriot
I believe he would qualify as a steady position player that came up through the system.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
And if he is lucky enough to stay on this team
for two more years he wil make the list. Along with Soto, but that is iffy.
Um we did NOT trade Maddux
Perhaps then we would only look REALLY stupid because MAYBE we would have gotten SOMETHING BACK. We let him WALK after pulling back TWO contracts he agreed to.
As for Palmeiro um it was the Cindy Sandberg thing so I can’t really blame them.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Aug 21, 2009 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Soto,Theriot, Fontenot,...
…Patterson had a some seasons with the club.
Not being argumentative at all, in fact, I’d hardly call this list a “cornerstone” on which to build. But the Cubs have struggled badly in this area and the last two seasons we’ve started to see some contributions.
Agree wholeheartedly.
Team’s are calling up 20-23 year old studs like Colby Rasmus, Prince Fielder, Yovani Gallardo, Andrew McCutchen, Hunter Pence, Jay Bruce, Joey Votto, etc. This is just in our division.
Where are our top prospects? We call up guys like Bobby Scales, Micah Hoffpauir, and Jake Fox. Fox is obviously solid, but he’s already 27.
Our minor league talent development is a complete joke, as is our drafting ability. Hendry really needs to go, because we haven’t drafted anyone of value lately.
Which forces us to go out and overpay free agents (Soriano, Bradley, Fukudome) that don’t live up to their expectations.
They’re using money to buy players in order to make up for their failure to find and develop young talent.
The Cardinals recently signed 16 year-old Dominican Wagner Mateo. Why aren’t we going after guys like this?
Young talent is, an always will be, cheaper than veteran talent.
Pathetic.
Uh
we called up Riot, Soto, Fuld, Z, Marmol, Woody, Marshall, etc.
It’s a combination.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 21, 2009 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions
soto and Marmol
are examples of what good young talent can do for you, but they haven’t exactly proven themselves yet.
neither have rasmus
or the 16 y/o guy you referenced.
Jerry’s been so distant lately and Lovie barely calls.- Just Dave
Rasmus is a 2.5 WAR player already
He’s proven.
Thanks
by vivaelpujols on Aug 22, 2009 5:27 AM CDT up reply actions
I am so sick of seeing numbers to analyze everything.
What happened to the art of watching guys play and recognizing their ability/potential and rating it with what you are actually seeing on the field.
by Cubsfan Waveland on Aug 22, 2009 8:06 AM CDT up reply actions
Right.
What if Rasmus regresses in his 2nd year — like we have seen with Soto. Does that make him “unproven”?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
In fairness
Soto’s MiLB numbers didn’t foresee the breakout he had last year. He was at best a middling prospect til he tore it up last year. Rasmus has been a #1 prospect since he entered the system.
That said, if he sucks it up like Soto next year, which could happen, you’re absolutely right. However, he seems far less likely to do so.
Okay
Rasmus is an excellent defender in center field, and has a lot of power. He has hit two walkoff homers this year, and generally puts together great at bats.
Thanks
by vivaelpujols on Aug 22, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions
He's had a really good year
but saying he’s “proven” while guys with more experience than him aren’t didn’t make sense.
Jerry’s been so distant lately and Lovie barely calls.- Just Dave
Our system
We went through a down period in the middle part of the decade. There were some bad draft choices, some failures in development, some player failures (Pawelek comes to mind). Now, our rankings were decent for a couple years, because we had a bunch of cup of tea guys. The system has been on an upswing and right now, is a fairly solid system. The only thing that matters to me from year to year is if the system is improving and if the system fits, but people love rankings, and I’m fairly confident that our system, justifiably a bottom system last year, is more of a middle of the pack system now. People will note, what’s changed in one year? Well, the thing is, the difference between a good system and bad system isn’t by that much. It can be as little as a draft. 2008’s draft looks real solid right now, with several high end chips and some solid depth, and we’ve added to that. We’re still a bit thin on the positional side, though, but we are getting better.
Certainly, having talent in the system doesn’t equate to producing major league players. We had a lot of stellar arms at the start of the decade, when our system ranked quite high, but many of those fizzled out. That said, there’s hope. Now, you point out that we haven’t gone after high end Latin American talent. While I would like to see us make a bold move in Latin America, the Cubs have diversified. The Cubs, under Steve Wilson, have invested heavily in Asia, to the point where, it’s been noted that Korean teams took out bleachers to prevent Cubs scouts from sitting at a game (I’ll get the link later, it was in the East Windup Chronicle last year). Two of our best talents are from Korea in Hak-ju Lee and Dae-Eun Rhee. Both guys are well thought of for their upside and talent, and we got the both of them for, off the top, combined half of what Mateo cost, and Mateo was considered a somewhat risky signing.
There’s hope for the future. Certainly, it has to be developed, but there’s hope that we have a core in the minor leagues to build from. One of the more exciting things is the diversity in the system. We have speed, we have patient hitters, we have some power. There’s power arms, there’s some finesse arms. There’s some raw guys with high ceilings and huge bust factors, but there are also some “Theriot-type” safe guys. There needs to be more (particularly lefty starting pitching depth, where Jeffry Antigua/Chris Rusin/James Leverton are arguably our top 3, not bad, but not great, and we need more).
Look at the Dodgers players 27 and under compared to the Cubs
Dodgers: Kemp, Loney, Martin, Billingsley, Kershaw, Broxton, Ethier*
Cubs (current and recent): Pie, Fox, Soto, Wells, Marshall, Marmol, Murton*
(Ethier and Murton were both acquired via trade.)
I don’t know about you, but I think the Dodgers have a 5-0-2 edge there (Billingsley/Wells and Broxton/Marmol are possibly ties in the long run).
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Aug 23, 2009 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions
Developing a flow...
…of position player talent is the core of what helps sustain long term success. When you do this, you don’t have to always go out and overpay for FA’s that may set you back if they don’t pan out. Hendry has failed miserably over his 14 year tenure dealing with the farm.
Pitchers in general, are much easier to predict future success, but it’s the position player successes that put you in good position.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I am hopeful
that the recent drafts will produce some everyday talent. Fingers crossed with the boys at Peoria.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
Losing makes you do dumb things
The cubs for years have felt pressure to win fir years so they have bought high priced free agents right after their one goodseason blocking player development. No need to develop a left fielderwhen you have a crappy one you are playing millions for playing there already
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by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Aug 21, 2009 4:29 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Derrick May
May has been the best homegrown left fielder the Cubs have had since 1990. Generally speaking, the Cubs have had the likes of George Bell, Luis Gonzalez, Henry Rodriguez, Moises Alou, and Alfonso Soriano in left field. None of those five were or are homegrown products.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
In fact the last great of prospect from the cubs farm
Lou brock
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by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Aug 21, 2009 6:29 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
and the reason we dumped him
was one of the reasons we missed out on a lot of success.
a healthy Broglio
was a very good pitcher
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 22, 2009 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions
If Broglio had been in the same shape ...
… in 2004 as he was in 1964, he’d have had some sort of surgery, missed a year, and then come back. That wasn’t available then, unfortunately.
He was an 18-game winner the year before and was only 28 at the time of the trade. Most analysts at the time thought the Cubs had fleeced the Cardinals.
Oh, well.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
exactly
The Cubs traded a guy (Brock) who had shown flashes of talent but was certainly no lock for a guy who was a proven high quality big league pitcher.
You’re right about how Broglio’s injury not likely being a career ender today like it was 40+ years ago. Same could be said for Gale Sayers. His knee injury would not have ended his career like it did back in the day.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 22, 2009 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions
Also, it should be pointed out...
… that players from our farm system have, through shrewd trading, produced Derrek Lee and Aramis Ramirez for the major league team. It’s not just having minor leaguers play for your major league team that can produce value.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Hee Seop Choi and Bobby Hill
They were used to get D-Lee and A-Ram to the Cubs. I’m surprised Choi and Hill did not have better major league careers.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Choi
Changed after the concussion deal where they had to call the ambulance on the field.
Go Cubs Go!!!!
Start fresh; this team's going nowhere
You can, and should, build the farm system with your own shrewd picks and build a perennial winner, as Branch Rickey famously did. But times have changed with free agency — you can’t keep your guys through their prime without huge contracts that keep them tied to you past their prime. The trick for over-the-hill teams that want to be contenders (see: 2009-2010 Cubs) is to trade veterans to win-this-year teams in exchange for top prospects. You think a team that’s looking at playoff-Series this year wouldn’t have liked to have Rich Harden for a few big games, for example? Cubs are going to lose him anyway. And then there’s the roster full of older guys who aren’t going to see a World Series in a Chicago uniform. Admit it and look to the future.
essentially, a firesale is what you are suggesting
the white sox white flag trade basically. Here’s my question – is there a need to? It isn’t as if we have a bad system right now. If we did, fine. But with an improved system and the different economic environment baseball is in right now, while we can get some solid prospects for most of our players, is it worth it to completely give up on the now? It might help us long run, but our system is actually at a good balance – the pitchers are slightly ahead of the hitters right now, overall, imo, but they aren’t separated by that much. Why not keep the team intact, let the contracts run out, wait on the youngsters, but also hope that the team gets hot at the right time? Heck, even though I entered the year thinking we were the favorites in the NLC, I was always aware that, for this Cubs team to win, it would require the team getting hot at the right moment. It’s not that I’m against a firesale – I just don’t know if I’m for it. I’m also concerned that money cleared would mean money to spend.
Most white flag sales
involve “organizational filler” coming over in return. We don’t have a single slot in our system where an ‘old for the league’ guy, or someone with bad statistics, would play. Boise’s pitching (low A ball) started very slowly, but they have improved as well. The only pitchers on Boise older than 23 are Ryan Sontag and Josh Lansford, both transitioning from other positions.
We don’t need Andrew Lorraine and Cole Liniak anymore, thank God.
The team tried
Don’t forget that in 2006 Murton and Cedeno started and a majority of the team were pitchers from our system.
The Cubs have positioned themselves as a team who will trade or buy good players rather than develop their own. While this could change in years to come, it’s what I have become accustomed to seeing as of late.
A bif failure....
Is the way we handle young players. Take Shark for instance he has been rushed since day 1. He was signed to be a starter even though he hasn’t developed a 3rd or 4th pitch. We have thrown him in the pen, when he has absolutely no experience for those type of situations. He shouldn’t have seen a MLB park last year nor should he have this year. I’ve said it before, send him to AA and let him start developing the “right way” if it isn’t too late.
I’m just as guilty as anyone else but Cpat and Pie were overhyped from day 1 and never really had a fair shot. They were brought up and expected to be Ken Griffey Jr or the likes from the start.
Go Cubs Go!!!!
mediocrity rises too fast
in a talent vacuum. we had no quality. both zoomed since there was nothing to hold them up. guys now have talent they have to outperform in our system.
Gary Scott and Kevin Orie
Those were a couple of third base prospects that didn’t pan out. The time period between Ron Cey and Aramis Ramirez at third base wasn’t too pretty except for the best year of Vance Law’s career in 1988.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
I have been very critical along these lines as well
A bit over a year ago, I joined BCB and have read most (and replied replied to many) of Josh’s minor league updates. With tips of the cap to Josh, toonster, outshined, and others, I have a reasonable knowledge of our system.
I guess I expected to be enraged at what we have in the pipeline. I vaguely remember the days (not long ago) when we would draft a senior college first baseman with meh numbers and no prospcts of being a big leaguer and stick him as the starter at Boise. “So what he can’t play? We got him cheap!”
I was set to be frustrated at the dearth of hope or quality in the system, especially at the tricky positions of catcher and shortstop. Well, amazingly, I’m upbeat. Instead of ‘living or dying’ by games started by Aaron Miles, I’ve been working on an Excel File of which players are presently on the rosters of the Cubs afilliates, what is their age, and what is their (WHIP/OPS). I’m extending it to division rivals as well.
My results sound like a Kool Aid commercial. I won’t spoil the ending, but I strongly encourage those who really do care about the kids coming up to find out about them. Some will flop. Some will get traded. Some will do very well. But we don’t have to put all our eggs in the Tye Waller/Jay Baller/Scot Thomson/Gary Scott/Paul Noce basket any more. Even if Josh Vitters misses, we will be okay. We have guys in our system that other teams want, even if Baseball America want to put us over 20 again in 2010.
This (horrible, it appears) season will give us the upside of a mid-round first-round pick. If the people deciding who we select are the same, we should get a quality, signable hitter. Of our top six rounds the last two years, the only one that has been a whiff so far has been Matt Cerda, who injured his hand in Boise this year. Names like Brett Jackson, DJ LeMahieu, Andrew Cashner, Chris Carpenter, and Ryan Flaherty are on the radar of front offices everywhere. Aaron Shafer, Justin Bristow, Austin Kirk, and Chris Rusin are pitchers off to good starts. Brooks Raley just signed recently, and ought to start putting up numbers soon in AZ or Boise. Josh Harrison was dealt in the trade with the Pirates. The Bucs fans have put him top 20 in their system. For us, he wasn’t considered on the same level as some of our other kids. And that is just the top six rounds, the last two years. If I were to talk about Jay Jackson, Sergio Burruel, Logan Watkins, Hak-Ju Lee, and a bunch of others, I’d bore all of you.
Yeah, we’re getting better talent. No, I’m not a Jim Hendry fan, but he seems to be clicking on his Amateur selections recently.
The daily commentors on Josh’s report are a fun sub-sector of BCB. Fortunately, we have a fun product to talk about. Learn the names. Learn the ages. Learn the numbers. Ask questions. If I were responding two years ago after some of our disatrous drafts, I’d agree with your post 100%. The folks in charge of the draft seem to ‘get it’ now. Take a deep breath, and enjoy life. We’ll be fine. Even though Aaron Miles sucks.
nice job, this may be nitpicking
but i’m not sure whiff is the right word for cerda. the esteemed azphil has indicated that cerda’s bat has had his moments. the bigger issue was adjusting to being a catcher, and that shouldn’t have been anticiapted as an easy process. he might not adjust (2nd base would be the fallback), but i think he’ll be at Peoria in 2010, which, for a HS kid, is fine, and is age appropriate.
naah, it's all good.
his OPS is .433 in 2009. That is in limited time, granted. But all of the rest of the 13 picks are enjoying a degree of success. Cerda in the MWL in 2010? Has a good ring to it.
I’ll be running my Excel program then as well.
Btw, AzPhil's reports from XST
Indicated, from what I recall, that while there was work to do, that his bat had shown flashes and he was making good contact during XST We should know more during instructs. Hopefully AzPhil will be posting again then.
A pen arm to loosely keep an eye on is Marcus Hatley. He still has Wuertz-ish level stuff, and he’s really turned it on out in the Peoria pen. In any other year, he probably would’ve gotten a call up, but with Daytona out of it, a lot of guys are probably staying put at Peoria this year. He really isn’t a starter. Middle relief profile, but a guy who could move fast next year.
Flipping through some numbers right now, I wonder if I’m being a bit too conservative this year. Took me a long time to come around on Kyler Burke (partly due to the late spring/early summer slide) and Ryan Searle. I’ve always liked Jeffry Antigua, but I’m wondering if I should be sticking him in the top 12. Exciting power lefty who has been good since being called up to Peoria. More impressive than the more highly touted Suarez.
Of the 13 pitchers on our Peoria roster
only 3 have WHIP over 1.5. Alberto Cabrera (who is starting tonight, I have no idea why, he’s a short reliever) at 1.55, Hatley at 1.51, and Eric Hamren at 1.52. Eight have WHIP below 1.3.
On the hitting side, six guys (Flaherty, LeMahieu, Ridling, Burke, Jackson, and Rosa) have OPS at over .800.
Nice balance in Peoria, which should equate to Tennessee and Daytona being fun in 2010.
Definite correlation between years of futilty and the fundamental inability to develop positional prospects
Even the mighty Yankees and Red Sox are reliant on a consistent stream of young positional talent that they can plug and play or trade. The Cubs have had a horrendous 20 year stretch in this department.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
if you threw out the guys
from the mid-late sixties and 80’s, it’d be more like, i dunno, seventy years?
The hope I have....
….is that day one of the Ricketts administration includes a press conference announcing the dismissal of Jim Hendry and Oneri Flieta. It is time to get some baseball people in here who know how to effectively scout, draft and develop talent.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
which of our last two years
of draft picks do you disagree with? Top six rounds, 2008 or 2009.
You wont get a reply
He comes in here and fires a salvo and then departs. Mostly gutless people do that, so dont expect a response.
of course not
i know this. i also figure he looks. sees i’ve kicked his, y’know. takes note. and tries again next time.
gutless. that’s about right.
Everytime someone posts this i just say..
Soto- ROY
Wells- Potential ROY
so 2 years in a row we have the best young player in the league..
DA CUBS DA BEARS DA BULLS
Both of these players
Are not proven talent just yet. Hopefully they continue to play well
Soto and Wells vs. Martin and Kershaw
If you were offered this deal straight up, can you honestly say you wouldn’t seriously consider it??
Even though he’s not ROY because they brought him up too soon, I’d argue that Matt Kemp can routinely kick Soto’s butt.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Aug 23, 2009 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions
Expanding the scouting staff would help
Let’s hope Tom Ricketts – or an advisor he puts his faith in – makes this a priority.
I have read before that the Cubs have the smallest or one of the smallest scouting staffs in MLB.
I don’t know whether it is true, but if so then it might be an area where they either were too confident in their staff or perhaps viewed it as an area where they could cut costs, or both?
It sure would...
…but you have to think long and hard about who will be hiring those scouts, and what type of philosophy they have.
As was pointed out in the article from George Castle (fan post), Hendry is a good ole boy who likes to take care of his buddies, and that is not always conducive to making progress.
This is what I love about Kenny Williams, they guy works overtime to stay objective and to put what is best for the team ahead of everything else. To do that, you can’t always be everybody’s friend and sometimes you ruffle feathers. Dallas Green was also this way.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Tony LaRussa also operates that way as a manager.
I thought Lou did, too. But his use of Aaron Miles this year, and Bob Howry last year, belie that.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
We do need to expand staffing
It’ll pay dividends. I do give credit for opening up a pipeline to Asia. It hasn’t produced to the major league level yet, but there is a lot of talent in the system now from Asia.
I put this on Hendry...
…he has sold the trib on spending a lot of money and giving him a 4 year contract. Why can’t he ask for a meazily million bucks to go hire 10-12 scouts.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
A few weeks ago
Somebody posted how one of the websites did a whole reconstruction of the rosters of teams based on guys who came from their farm systems only… well, what you noticed was that the Cubs seem to have real top notch starting and relieving pitching in our system throughout the last few years, with the guys who’ve stayed with the team as well as the guys we’ve traded away. Yet, our position players are pretty weak. So what I want to know is, why are we relatively good at finding and developing pitchers but horrid at doing it for hitters? What does our scouting department for pitching know that our scouting department for hitting not know?
historically,
the cubs have valued their minor league (hitters, particularly) with the same vigor that amish value porsches.
It was the Matthew Pouliot stuff on NBCSports
that you are referencing.
One other note to make is that the Cubs have always prioritized pitching over hitting, particularly under this McPhail/Hendry tenure. I can imagine, as with most organizations, some trickle down effect.
No wonder my dealership in Shipshewana isn't doing well.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
talent
you need the people who can evalute it properly. look at the red sox. the cubs need to model themselves after the sox.with the intense pressure to win we seem to be trying to do it the yankees way. but thats not working.
Actually, Crane Kenney has specifically said...
… they want to emulate the Red Sox model.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
They have a long way to go!
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Yes, they do.
But at least they have the right idea.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
They do have the right model...
…to emulate. Now, they need the right people to execute the plan to get there.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Embracing statistical evaluation really helped them, IMO
Bringing Bill James aboard as an advisor was an excellent idea.
so did the Red Sox
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 22, 2009 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions
What exactly is the "Red Sox Model", Al?
$122-million hasn’t made them look particularly spectacular this year.
Rickey has spoken. Keep the Athletics in Bump City.
um
well, I’d say they’ve done pretty well under the Epstein era. 2 titles, a system that was floundering pre-Epstein and is now well thought of.
As for the model, it isn’t a pre-sabrmetric outlook on everything. They’ve embraced it, but Epstein has managed to combine sabrmetrics along with traditional scouting. Granted, having money helps, but teams can spend on young talent and still do poorly. It’s a solid organization that is competitive now and has a really bright future. They take gambles in all areas of the international market, and they go after overslots fairly aggressively (granted, that might change by 2011 if the rules are adjusted).
As of this moment...
… they are leading the AL wild card race with the 3rd best record in the league. We’d take that right now, right?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
In a heartbeat
I think we’re headed in the right direction, but I believe the Red Sox are the best run organization, top to bottom, right now, based off what I know. They haven’t been ranked as the top system, to the best of my recollection, in the last few years, but they are consistently up there while continuing to be a threat year in and year out. There are few teams in this decade that have been consistently competitive while maintaining a quality system. Certainly, some of it is luck, but they are doing something right. While they have a lot of money to play with, there haven’t been, off the top, many bad deals. I believe they can opt out of JD Drew’s deal, Ortiz is done after 2010 (there is a 2011 option, but that’s a no go if he is hitting like this), Lowell is done after 2010. About the only potentially bad contract is Matsuzaka, but that’s more due to the length, as he’s “only” making 28 million from 2010-2012 (and rumors still suggest they could shop him in the offseason … ).
They are in excellent shape, and have a bright future.
DFA the Cubs minor league system!!!
I haz comedy show on Fridays. Come out and support a fellow Cubs fan? If you do, I'll see what I can do about Aaron Miles: Hot Beans Delivers
by digitalbenjamin on Aug 22, 2009 10:09 AM CDT reply actions

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