A Cubs Fan's True Responsibility: A Rebuttal
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 22, 2009 8:54 PM CDT
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Yesterday, this fanpost was posted by BCB reader copingwiththecubs. I found the post very well written, and while my kneejerk reaction was to scream "Fairweather Fan!!!", I have read it a few times and thought about what the poster was trying to say. After having read and thought about the arguments presented, I still disagree, and wanted to share my opinion in the matter. Please note: I do not think of myself as any better nor any worse of a fan as the poster, I just happen to disagree strongly with a few of the points made.
I have been a Cubs fan since 1986 when I was just 6 years old. Growing up in North Carolina, it was the Cubs on WGN in the daytime and the Braves on TBS at night. I fell in love with Ryne Sandberg, Andre Dawson, the aura of Wrigley Field, and listening to Harry Caray entertainingly call even the most lopsided of games (and believe me, there were many!). I was hooked, and have come to find out, 23 years later, that it was destined to be a lifelong passion of mine.
Admittedly, I sometimes think of the Cubs as my first true love. I cannot, however, understand comparing that love to an abusive relationship. For starters, the Cubs are not losing to purposely hurt me. Every day they take the field with the intention of winning, and I realize that their losses hurt them just as much if not more than they do me. I will not "punish" them by turning my back on them if the bats go cold or the sliders hang. They are my team, through thick and thin. In reality, 'til death do us part.
Secondly, I took a bit of exception to the poster's plea for us to "show management" we won't take it anymore. It was implied that we should stop attending games, buying merchandise, etc as a form of consumer activism. Granted, I'm not at all worried about this happening, but I want fans like this to realize that our tickets, our tshirts, our beers even, is how we can afford to put a competitive team on the field. Don't believe me? Ask Pittsburgh, and Kansas City, and Oakland. If nothing else, we need to bump up our support. We need to take a stand, we need to show a little "consumer activism". We need to show the new owners, the management, the city, all of Major League Baseball that we are not going away. We will be here, year in and year out, generation after generation, filling the stands and loving our team, til death do us part. And when we do win it all, I assure you, it will have been worth the wait.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Well said.
I don’t agree with the second graph, but I respect your point of view.
Rec’d.
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
Much appreciated
thank you!
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 22, 2009 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm happy that most people seem to understand the pain...
that this triviality we call Cub fandom has brought me. Oh, it’s nothing like any real hurts I’ve experienced – lost loves, unrequited dreams, the passing of loved ones. Still I go into every season hoping and dreaming until, inevitably, I turn my back on the Cubs. I promise I’ll never go back to them but I always do. But I still need to know why we don’t just tell Cubs management to go to hell and be done with it. I don’t get it. I’m as much to blame as you are, Ambrosia. Despite what I wrote yesterday, I know I’ll go to games, watch telecasts, etc. next year — even this year if they suddenly go on a five-game winning streak. The only people who don’t call me crazy for this masochism are BCBers. I guess we’re all nuts. My nutty family.
Joe, you coulda made us proud!
by copingwiththecubs on Aug 22, 2009 11:06 PM CDT reply actions
If you're giving up on the Cubs...
why are you still posting on BCB? If you want to throw the towel in because of all the pain they’ve inflicted upon you over the years, I’ll respectfully disagree with your decision. But down pull a Favre and come back for more when you said that you were done.
I’m done with the bastards
Perhaps I just misunderstood that statement?
"Chicago Cubs fans are ninety percent scar-tissue." -George F. Will
by In Piniella We Trustiella on Aug 25, 2009 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions
*don't pull a Favre
"Chicago Cubs fans are ninety percent scar-tissue." -George F. Will
by In Piniella We Trustiella on Aug 25, 2009 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions
This is what happens in other markets..
…and the South Side of Chicago. Cubs fans go to games. Period. The die is cast. There is no going back to yesteryear, and closing the upper deck for many games. That happens in Oakland….or, more properly, they “tarp over” the top deck.
I didn’t read that other post by copingwiththecubs. I “boycott” such nonsense.
But, he has every right to leave. So, I hope he does.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Aug 23, 2009 12:30 AM CDT reply actions
Oakland is a different beast.
Combine high rents with the second-lowest per capita income in the Bay Area (around $25,000), and attending a ballgame becomes a secondary or even tertiary concern. Even with tickets as low as $9, costs rapidly rise; you’re not going to find 35,000-fans to come out and fill the Coliseum for 81-games a year.
For those fans that do attend, the actual experience is lacking. Forget the actual social amenities (Coke Slide, Pitching Cage, etc) for a moment, you can’t even see what happens in the outfield from the bleachers. If you sit anywhere outside of the first row, you have to stand up, and hope that you can catch a glimpse of what just happened because of the damn tunnel the Raiders use.
The dedicated A’s fans still turn out, and crowds do come especially when there’s something going on in conjunction with the game; i.e., the fireworks display brought out 26,000 + last night. A baseball only stadium will go a long way towards getting butts in the seats; a stadium in a different part of Oakland would also help since the light-industrial area is none too appealing. Ultimately though, Oakland needs to increase its per capita income (and the associated disposable income) if it wants to keep filling the stadium. Otherwise, the team’ll (tragically) end up in San Jose.
The Cubs benefit primarily from the newly moneyed class that has flocked to Chicago. If Chicago was still stuck in its post-manufacturing hell, you’d see vastly different numbers in the stands.
Rickey has spoken. Keep the Athletics in Bump City.
Part of the reason why, yes...
…, but I believe Lew Wolff, once he bought the team, was hell-bent on moving to Santa Clara County no matter what, and has tried to make going to a game unappealing. A’s are still averaging 19,000 per game, which is kind of ridiculous given their record throughout the double aughts.
Good news: the A’s have shown zero decrease in their television viewership, so there’s room there to expand upon on either their own network, or one that doesn’t hide them under the Giants’ shadow.
Rickey has spoken. Keep the Athletics in Bump City.
The A's need to move to San Jose.
It’s unconscionable for the Giants to still hang on to this as their “territory” given that they moved their ballpark farther away from San Jose.
SJ is the right place for the A’s, if money can be found to move them there.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It's an interesting dilemma, I'll give you that.
It’s definitely unconscionable, but there are a lot of Giants fans in SJ whose transport needs are served by CalTrain. Hop on board, and they’re finally deposited just a couple of blocks from AT&T. No such option exists for A’s fans (if they actually exist) in SJ aside from the overly congested 880 and the pricey Amtrak.
While SJ may end up being their new home, it will never be the “right” place for the team.
Rickey has spoken. Keep the Athletics in Bump City.
Oakland
Moving to San Jose would hardly be tragic, rather it is what will keep the franchise in the Bay Area. Building a new stadium in Oakland is a fool’s dream. The city has no interest and no money. The owner, Lew Wolffe, has no interest in staying in Oakland and already owns a pro team in San Jose, the MLS Earthquakes, and is financing a new stadium for the team. There are not enough baseball fans in Oakland to support a team. Oakland has less than half the population of San Jose (SJ is CA’s third largest city with a million people) and an even smaller fraction of per capita income. Most A’s fans come from outside of Oakland, don’t like driving into Oakland, and they certainly have no interest in hanging out in Oakland before and or after the game. But a team in San Jose would be a completely different story.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 24, 2009 8:25 AM CDT up reply actions
Oakland...
…has no money, because California has no money. California has no money, because its been horribly governed for decades, and because corporate tax loopholes deprive the state some $11-billion annually. Oakland also gets shafted because it does all of the blue collar work that SJ and SF can’t bring themselves to do.
Your population argument is weak and unfounded. There are 7.5-million people that reside in the Bay Area; that’s 6.5-million more people than SJ. In all of Santa Clara County, there are only 2-million people. The population of the East Bay in its entirety is greater than that of San Jose, and this is where the A’s traditional fan base comes from. Hanging out in Oakland before or after a game is currently impossible, because of the Coliseum’s location in a light-industrial area. Move it closer to, or in, downtown, and you’ve suddenly improved in the long term prosperity of the city and the team. Build something comparable to AT&T, and you’re now looking at a true “Battle of the Bay.” With the closure of the Oakland Navy & Army bases, there are several new chunks of real estate coming up with better views of the Bay than provided by AT&T.
It’s tragic when any city loses its sporting franchise, and continues to reinforce the mercenary nature of modern baseball. The only immediate tangible benefit of SJ is the ready-made corporate investment that Oakland can’t compete with since there aren’t the obscene profits involved in transportation and logistics that you find in the “knowledge economy.” Oakland, however, does have corporate interests who might be persuaded in purchasing premium seating in a baseball specific stadium.
But this isn’t the place to talk about the Athletics.
Rickey has spoken. Keep the Athletics in Bump City.
Personally, I think it would be really cool
if the team could build a complex on an old army or navy base. Make a nice big park out of it, ya know. Takes those corporate tax loopholes that you mentioned to help fund it. Nice stadium, shops, restaurants, make it a real fan experience. Sadly, I doubt that’ll happen, but I’m sure if it did the revenue would pay for the project within a few years.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 24, 2009 10:09 PM CDT up reply actions
San Jose has the location already
it is downtown basically across the street from the Shark Tank. Oakland has no money and no political will to build a stadium, whereas SJ has both. If the A’s don’t move to SJ they will leave the Bay Area, that would be the real tragedy. Oakland cannot support a team, they do not even support the Raiders anymore. get a grip, Oakland is dead as a sports town. Eventually even the Warriors will see the light and move to SJ like they should have done years ago after the Shark Tank was built. SJ is the future, Oakland is a never was.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 25, 2009 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Nice cherry picking of population stats to support a weak argument
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 25, 2009 8:25 AM CDT up reply actions
The population argument is not mine; it's yours.
I’m pointing out the fallacy of your numbers. By your same rationale, the Cubs should be moving to Naperville since it’s closer to their normative fanbase given the hyper-segregation of Chicago and associated white flight. The Cubs are “only” able to draw a fan base from the Northside and its surrounding suburbs.
Rickey has spoken. Keep the Athletics in Bump City.
your cherry picking numbers is the fallacy in your argument
that is the point. You assume no fans outside of Santa Clara County will go to A"s games, which patently absurd. Oakland stinks as a sports town, San Jose offers a much better future.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 26, 2009 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions
I grew up in the Bay Area
and we went to about 20 A’s games a season during the late eighties. However we never bought tickets since my dad was in sales and we always got them for free. While the A’s are my AL team, their park sucks. It’s totally a football stadium and the ballpark has been taken over by Al Davis and remodeled so that baseball is even worse. While I loved seeing what the franchise was able to do with very little money in the late nineties and early 00’s, they really need a new park. I would love to see one stay in Oakland, however the lack of money probably won’t allow that to happen. My family actually owns a chemical plant on the east side of the current stadium and it’s rough over there. My brief time at Wrigley a few years ago was a way better ballpark experience than all the games put together in Oakland (including going to the ’88 playoffs there).
Bottom line is, your team is your team. I love the Cubs. They’re driving me crazy right now, however I still watch every game online I can. I still have hope. Until it’s mathematically impossible, I’ll hang on. While this is probably foolish and will give me ulcers, heart failure, and way too much stress in my life, it will be worth it once the wait is over. Don’t give up now. Until there’s no possible way to play in October, stay true. This site is called Bleed Cubbie Blue, is it not? And if October comes and we’re playing golf and rooting against St. Louis, then the countdown begins to the middle of February when pitchers and catchers report and hope is born anew. GoCubsGo.
by portlandcubfan on Aug 24, 2009 10:59 PM CDT up reply actions
A quarter century
of extra suffering.
I crunched the numbers here.
The person that wrote the original post was born in 1955. I was born in 1956. You were born in 1980.
That means ‘we’ have an extra quarter century of suffering with this team.
Twenty five extra years of losing and bad baseball mixed in with the occasional ‘This is Finally the Year’ oncoming trainwreck collapse thrown in for good measure.
I don’t agree with everything the original poster said . . . but I totally understand their position.
When you say this:
Admittedly, I sometimes think of the Cubs as my first true love. I cannot, however, understand comparing that love to an abusive relationship.
it’s clear that you just haven’t been at it long enough. Tack on another quarter century of heartbreak and you too might think of the Cubs that way.
Age doesn't matter
It doesn’t take a half a century, quarter century, or decade to understand the joy, hope, pain or sadness of being a Cubs fan. It only takes one such season to cast the die of true Cubs fan.
Do not trivialize his feelings by saying, " it’s clear that you just haven’t been at it long enough". Ambro’s feelings are genuinely his – regardless of how long he has felt them.
Age doesn't matter?
Right.
So a Cub fan who has experienced the disappointment for one or two seasons is the same as one who has experienced twenty or thirty years (or more)?
Honesly, that’s the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
It makes NOOOOOOOOOO sense at all.
Correct, age does not matter!
What difference does it make?
If you have been through it once, then you know how it feels!
Obviously, you have experienced MORE disappointments in sheer numbers, but to say that he needs to experience as MANY disappointments as YOU to truly understand is ridiculous.
This is not about HOW MUCH/HOW MANY times you or me have been trough Cubs related disappointments, it is about going through it, feeling it, and understanding it.
To say anything else trivializes the feelings that someone else has.
If we go by your rational, anyone who has NOT been a Cubs fan for as long as you doesn’t understand the disappointment that the 2009 Cubs are inflicting upon all Cubs fans.
Right (again)
If you’ve been through it once, that’s the SAME as going through it 20, 30 or 40 times.
Are you serious with this, or are you joking?
You are not reading what I am saying.
I am not arguing that you have or have not been through more seasons of disappointment. That’s for you to know because I don’t know you.
If you go back to my original reply to you, then reread my first sentence. The key word their is ‘understand’.
This is not a chest pounding competition about who has gone through more agony. This about whether or not an individual UNDERSTANDS how it feels and what it means to be a Cubs fan.
I don’t care how many more seasons you have been a Cubs fan than Ambro has or I have. His passion comes from within him. My passion comes from with in me.
All you have done, with any certainty, is told everyone that you have been a Cubs fan for a long time. You have also implied that anyone who is in their 20’s or 30’s is not really a fan because they haven’t gone through it as many times as you have. Seriously, it is more than an amount of seasons.
It is…
…learning from your grandparents
…years of enjoyment regardless of outcome AND the outcomes are met with true and genuine emotions – YOUR OWN
…teaching your children to love not only the Cubs, but the game of baseball itself
The list for me goes on. If you going to make an argument, the least you could do would be to back it up more than once with, “I’ve got more years under my belt than you do, so there!” Come on.
by tcjhawk on Aug 23, 2009 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
I recommended this, thank you
You said this much better than I could have. I cannot help how old I am, but I do know that I’ve been a HUGE fan for as long as I can remember. I felt my first heartbreak when I was 9, thanks to Will Clark. 2003 was still the worst for me, but last year stung quite a bit. To say that I need to “suffer” for another quarter century is insanity. Being a fan is not martyrdom, it’s a feeling within. That is to say, a fan who suffered through 40-50 years of heartbreak does not deserve that championship any more than I do just because of my age. I try very hard to not diminish other fans’ feelings about not watching games, etc, so it is very difficult for me as a loyal fan to listen to somebody question my place in the family simply because I’m 29. Trust me, I’m not going anywhere.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 23, 2009 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions
You amuse me
You cannot BEGIN to understand what it’s like to be a life long Cub fan after a ‘season or two’ (or going through it once, like you said).
You can have a vague (and I mean vague) idea what it’s like, but there is no substitute for time/experience.
By YOUR criteria:
Correct, age does not matter!
A ‘one or two year Cub fan’ has ‘suffered’ as much as a 50 year Cub fan, because, after all,
If you have been through it once, then you know how it feels!
Let me help you out here. Time DOES matter.
Going through it ‘once’ isn’t pleasant. It’s not fun.
Going through it for decades is excruciating.
I never said said or implied that you or Ambro or anyone in their 20’s or 30’s is
not really a fan because they haven’t gone through it as many times as you have.
That’s you imagination speaking. Never said or implied that at all.
I DID say, however, that if Ambro had gone through it another QUARTER CENTURY that he might, just might feel a little differently.
That’s all. You saying that I am implying that anyone younger isn’t as much of a fan is just your imagination talking.
Putting words in my mouth.
BTW: Go up to a 50, 60 70 80 year ole Cub fan and tell them that people that have
been through it onceKnows how they feel .
Let me know when they stop laughing.
Happy to amuse.
We will have to agree to disagree. None of what you just said changes my opinion.
It is about understanding. I have understood, going on 25 years now. Congratulations on your 50 plus.
My grand parents, who introduced me to the Cubs, and have been Cubs fans for even longer to you, will be laughing at you when I email them this post!
Right
And if you had read my original post what I said was that if YOU or AMBRO go another quarter century of ‘Cubbie Ball’ you might feel EVEN more frustrated.
Simple. That’s all I said.
Tack on another 25 years to your ‘years of service’ so far and you might feel the same as the original poster.
From that, YOU have me saying that people in their 20’ or 30’s aren’t really fans (laughable assumption)
or
that people who have been through it once (your words) “Know how it feels.”
Right. They know how it feels ONCE.
They DON’T know who it feels many, many times over, over decades of time.
Why is this so confusing for you? Perhaps you should just stick to what’s written and not make so many assumptions.
I have been dealing with the losses for 33 years
and actually, each year it becomes easier to accept, and easier to manage the frustration. to be honest it becomes more comical when they lose due to on field stupidity and mismanagement.
does that mean I love the Cubs less than you or anyone else, NO! it just means that I will not let them drive me insane, and I have learned how to cope with their futility on the field differently
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Actually, I was kinda
thinking the same thing.
In a strange way it does become easier to accept, as you say.
It’s a complicated equation.
I stand by my original point though.
Fans for 20, 30 40 + years have suffered more than fans for a few years.
few years, or long time
all suffer together, and it does not matter to me how long anyone has been on the Cubs wagon.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Right
We all suffer together. Absolutley. To say, however, that a first year fan has ‘suffered’ as much as a fifty year fan is insane.
If you can’t see or understand that, then that’s your problem.
a longer fan
has seena dn should expect it more than a newer fan. you have it backwards IMO
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Right
Expect to be disappointed more than a newer fan? Sure.
Absolutely.
You however, are constantly ‘changing the debate.’
I never said that all Cub fans don’t suffer together. They do.
I simply said, in my original post that if one is a Cub fan for 23 years (like ambro) that they MIGHT (just might) be even more frustrated if they went another 25 years with the team.
That’s all.
Twice as long a Cub fan . . . twice as much ‘suffering.’
Again, what part of this is SO confusing for you?
(Cause actually it’s pretty simple).
100% of suffering is 100%
does not matter if its 1 week, 1 year, or 95 years, it is still the same. It seems to me, like you are trying to make yourself feel special, and above some other fans, just because you are an elder fan. That is not right and I refuse to look at the amount of years as a fan as how to rank a fan. For all WE know you have been a fan for 1 year and are saying different. And to me that means nothing, we are all fans, how long any of us have suffered means nothing, we all suffer losing season after losign season.
WHAT PART OF THAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Right
So if someone is diagnosed with cancer and has had it for one week, they’ve SUFFERED as much as someone who has had it for two years.
Yeah, that makes sense.
can't compare the two
I’m sorry.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 23, 2009 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions
exactly
you choose to turn the game on adn follow the Cubs
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Right again
So a ‘new’ Cub fan who has lived through, let’s say, this 2009 season has ‘suffered’ as much as one who’s lived through the 2008 playoff humiliation, the ’84 collapse and of course, the mother of all collapses . . .1969.
Got it.
As you say:
does not matter if its 1 week, 1 year, or 95 years, it is still the same.
Again, that’s insane.
Let me help you out here:
Ever hear the term “Long Suffering?”
I have.
As in “Long Suffering Cub’s Fan.”
If you haven’t, ask someone who has.
Ever hear the term “Short Suffering?”
I haven’t. Have you?
BTW: You amuse me, my little friend!
if it is so much suffering
turn it off, and watch something else.
Seriously, what do you want, a cookie for being a fan who has suffered? I do not see what makes you special if you suffered thru more seasons than another fan. The end result is the same, all of us are fans who suffer, so get over it.
Anyone who wants to try and compare their cubs suffering to cancer is a person who needs to stop watching the Cubs and find a new hobby
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
WTF???
impossible to compare the two….
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
KNOW WHAT
when it is only suffereing, and not a positive part of your life, it is time to walk away IMO
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
someone finally got the point
If being a Cub fan causes so much pain, like it has for Geo (so much pain he can no longer think clearly it seems), why persist? It’s only a game. It’s not war or a cancer diagnosis for cryin out loud. Those cause real pain.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 24, 2009 8:32 AM CDT up reply actions
To be honest,
Younger Cubs fans have actually enjoyed a bit more success than older Cubs fans.
So, I’m not really sure if they understand the depths of frustration. None of them ever experienced a quarter-filled Wrigley Field, with no hope in sight.
A full Wrigley Field is the norm, not the exception — to millions of Cubs fans. I have been, as a child to games with 6 to 7 thousand people in the stands. A young Cubs fan cannot even fathom that.
As a very young kid, I actually thought the Cubs couldn’t participate in the World Series. It took my Dad to explain to an 8-year-old…
“Yes, they can but they never do.”
Seeing your team fall at any age is tough for a good fan. But, IMHO, younger Cubs fans have had it much better, save for an elusive pennant and World Series.
Now, it appears the team should be competitive every year, and something should happen eventually. As a fan starting in 1964, having that first heartbreak in ’69 and watching the team retreat into never-never land through the 70s and rock bottom again in the early 80s……
If you are in your 20’s now, you’ve seen some bad teams but not as bad as the baby boomer Cubs fan. Consider yourself fortunate.
One of the truly terrible Cubs teams was 1997, as I point out time and time again. Losing your first 14 games right out of the box…. some here in their 20s’s never saw that disaster.
I don’t assert one generation of fans is better than the other. If you are older, you’ve seen a lot bad baseball, much more so than somebody in their 20s/30s.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Aug 25, 2009 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
has it come to this
we are going to argue about who hurts more about the Cubs loses, based on age?
I hate the day yahoo hooked up with SBN
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Aug 23, 2009 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
The pain really is too much IMO
I’m kind of new here, but being a huge fan of cubbie baseball I have to agree that it drains you physically and emotionally to have to sit through crappy baseball day after day. In football, you get a week to digest and relax after games, but in baseball your just smacked one day after another if your team sucks.
It wouldn’t bother me so much if this team didn’t seem so disgruntled. It’s hard for me to get on board when there are players on this team who are seemingly disgruntled. Noted wife beater (I think he beat his ex-wife in public, but I’m not sure! Yesh) and constantly angry dude Milton Bradley. Lazy, useless, Soriano, Clinically insane Carlos Zambrano, and fatty pot smoker Geovany Soto.
Where is our Ace, our All-star catcher, our slugging, switch hitting RF, our Slugging LF? All MIA this season.
This team is harder to watch than the ’04 team.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 23, 2009 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions
You're correct, it does not matter how long you have been a Cub fan. .
Don’t let Geo’s I am right and all who dare to disagree with you are wrong BS get to you.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 24, 2009 8:28 AM CDT up reply actions
cubs
no matter how much heartbreak there is. no matter how many people say im done. nobody ever leaves. you can pick your friends but you cant pick your family. the cubs are family.
You're right
I nearly left after the 2008 season. I nearly left. I’ve heard of people doing that and becoming White Sox fans because the way last season ended couldn’t have been any more heartbreaking or downright embarrassing. One of my friends, who hates the Cubs, told me that I was going to experience disappointment last season and I did. Now I don’t care if this team ever wins a World Series. Why? A fan doesn’t stake his love for a team based on the number of championships it has. You can’t put such things into words. When someone asks me, “Why the Cubs?” my reply is very simple.: “Why not?” Do I want a championship? Of course. I’d be insane not to want to experience that.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
I am going to reply to Geo, NOMAR ans Ace in this post
Geo, I was born in 1958 so you took the words right out of my mouth. 1969 set the stage for all the heartbreak to follow.
NOMAR, yes, the Cubs are a part of my family. I was a Cub fan in the womb and will always be one.
Ace, I tempered my enthusiasm for this season because of the debacle last October. My enthusiasm ebbs and flows all season long. I am not a bandwagon jumper, I follow the team every day without fail, though I don’t watch them as much lately. My wife gets mad at me because I get very upset when they play bad and lose.
I want them to win a WS with every fiber of my being, and I would never, ever consider going to another team. Next February, I will be out at Fitch Park watching the 2010 Cubs begin ST and I will be at as many home ST games as I can, again. I will buy my Cubs hat for that season and retire this year’s, and buy some new Cubs t shirts. This will be true whether they make the playoffs this year or not.
I support the team as best I can and root for them to win every day. Going to more games or buying more stuff will not improve the team. Ownership has more than enough money to field a WS winning team. Sometimes the players you sign don’t pan out or injuries hurt the team. Their goals as owners are #1 to be profitable for their investors and #2 field a contending team that has a chance to win the WS.
We had decades where the owner was a miser and the team was pretty crappy. Since the Tribune bought the team, they have spent the money and put together good teams that had a chance to win it all. Hopefully, our new owner will continue spending enough money for a good team and with good decisions and good performance on the field, the WS trophy will be on display at Clark & Addison one day in our lifetimes.
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
by BigJohnAZ on Aug 23, 2009 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
WELL SAID BIG JOHN........
Heart break that is the way it is . Am already looking at airfare tickets to Mesa in 2010 . So i am in this for the long haul like you . You didn’t mention how much Old Style we would consume at ST . Nor the many fans we see there year after year . Gotta think and hope 2010 will be a better year . Yes every team needs support of the fans . Without fans like each and every one of us there would be no team…….
that says it all, rec'd
MAKE IT GREN
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Green even LOL
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Well said...
…and I guess we have all learned that it takes more than an owner who spends money to win championships. It also takes a strong core organization, and the right people making the decisions on which players to spend money on.
I will always follow the team, but I have to admit my frustration is high because I have seen the problems slowly brewing for several years. I just hope the new owners make it their first priority to strengthen the baseball organization, because without that, their investment will not be what they desire.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
NOMAR, you don't post much ..
.. but when you do, man, you just say it so well .. that’s exactly how I feel.
I associate the Cubs as the background context to much of my family activity. I was sad to see my brother, who was a lifelong Cubs fan (raised from his youngest days in Cubbie love at the old homestead), finally give up on them last year. It didn’t faze me or my other brothers .. we still had a family get together at a Reds game in Cincy as we’ve done for the past 5 years.
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we will go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
by cubnational on Aug 23, 2009 10:00 PM CDT up reply actions
People go through
Cub frustration in many ways, so who is to say who is right or wrong.
I hope to believe that this team is putting effort forward, but it sure appears that the effort has been inconsistent and that includes the manager. I guess that is why I get so damn frustrated with this group. It seems that because they won two previous division titles they could turn it on at anytime, well guess what? little to late.
I have been a fan since 1970. There have been some brutal teams. Teams without talent, teams managed poorly and this years model that has lacked the desire and heart to get it done.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
A Cubs fan's history does matter
Mike Royko years ago gave a pretty good adage about Cubs fans: The optomist says the glass is half full, the pessimist says it’s half empty, the Cubs fan says when is the glass going to fall over?
Over the years, a Cubs fan becomes somewhat hardened. You remain optimistic, but you have guarded optimism. I live in Michigan. Last year, the Tigers fans kept asking me if I was excited about the Cubs, about how good they were, about how they were going to the World Series. Being a Cubs fan for over 40 years has taught me to take everything in moderation. Never get too high or get too low.
Last year hurt worse than 1969, 1984, 1989, 1998, 2003 or 2007. Why? Because I went against my on advice. I said all of the right things, but I dared to believe.
This is not to say that fans who have been fans longer than others hurt any more or less than those who are more recent fans. But the old saying “fool me once shame, on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.” Can be appropriate.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- George Santayana (1863-1952)
I think we all hurt from this and sometimes its hard to describe
but those who’ve been around 30, 40 years or more tend to feel more anguish than those more recently, say 20 years or less. Those of us who are older are also closer to the end with what could be no WS appearances let alone titles.
My father was born only 3 years after their last WS title and he passed away not seeing one himself, living not too many years less than a century.
But when its all said and done, each of us probably suffers about the same amount average for each year. Its just those of us who’ve seen it more have felt bad, longer.
Just win the next game...!
Cue the REM song ..
Listening to Cub fans arguing with each saying “I HURT MORE” .. “No, I HURT more!” over the execrable play of our heros in blue is kind of bizarre.
FWIW, my own two centavos ..
I’ve been a Cubs fan since 1969, starting when I was nine. My shameless crush on the Cubs here discusses that. When the Cubs blew it in that infamous year, it didn’t smart one bit. I was a kid. As I matured, my understanding of the game and the team and the history grew. I began to read. To listen. To hate the White Sox and the Cards and the Reds. Above all, being from Chicago, I chose to make the Cubs the outlet for my baseball interest, which grew over time. So by the time I turned 16 and the segue to that equally infamous 1977 season, when I first fully tasted the tease and the beckoning and then the implosion of that Cubs team that almost looked champion-like, I finally learned what kind of ride you could expect as a Cubs fan .. and what it felt like. I’ve never looked back, though, and endured all of those awful Cubs teams until 1984. The roller coaster ride, though, never stopped .. from the Boys of Zimmer onward through the wasteland of the 1990’s and onward beyond 1998, etc.
And I can think of posters here like Leo The Lip and others who have seen a lot more than I have. There’s no way anyone who has been a Cubs fan for a couple years to really understand just what it’s like to be a Cubs fan for a whole lot longer than that and who has lived during all of the crash and burns. No way. It’s just plain common sense. It’s just history you can’t ignore.
That’s not to take away from the uniquely personal experience of the newer Cub fan who has felt the stings and outrages of defeat .. it’s not to diminish their real disappointment. But to say that because you’ve endured that for a couple years simply isn’t the same kind of experience as having persisted in stoically rooting for a team that has established its resume by an annual Fail every year for decades. You just haven’t been there to understand what THAT is like and to thrive in spite of it, to the point that you’re deciding you are crazy for this team, no matter what, that you’ll keep putting up with the frustration, the disappointment, the laughs you get from the heathen who aren’t Cubs fans, etc. and will commit time, money and sacrifice to following them.
Doing it for a couple years isn’t the same as doing it for 20. But I’m not looking for some medal or consolation prize. Just some decent postseason play .. THAT’S all!
That’s why I chose the signature I now have. That’s why I have the avatar I do. The signature is taken from my favorite ELO song released about the time my adoration of the Cubs blossomed .. it eloquently lyricizes the mourning I’ve had my summer dreams end in ..
I’m not going to vent my spleen if some newbie fan wants to be contrarian and argue for their brokenness, but as the old song says, That’s The Way It Is.
Me, I’m a hopeless case. I’m bleeding Cubbie Blue until I die. I’m glad to have all of you – whether new or old – together on the ride. True Cubs fans are baseball fans too .. those who understand that our collective outrage at the way things turn out every year is just part of the way the ball bounces. Activism isn’t going to change any thing. Only the players can. The last two years, they’ve gotten real close .. this year, hope seems about to fade into the background noise of baseball history.
But the season ain’t over yet. GO CUBS!
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we will go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
Thank you cubnational
There’s no way anyone who has been a Cubs fan for a couple years to really understand just what it’s like to be a Cubs fan for a whole lot longer than that and who has lived during all of the crash and burns. No way. It’s just plain common sense. It’s just history you can’t ignore.
I’ve been involved in a massive pissing match with others above.
Thanks for (perhaps unknowingly) ‘taking my side.’
You can be a die hard Cub fan just starting out in 2009. I know and totally accept that.
But you CAN’T understand what it’s like for "Long Suffering Cub Fans’ who lived (and died) through 1969. 1984. 1989. 2003. etc.
I wasn’t trying to take anything away from ‘newer’ Cub fans.
I was just trying to give us ‘Long Suffereing Fans’ our due.
I was just trying to give us ‘Long Suffereing Fans’ our due.
you want a medal, and younger fans to kiss your feet. that is horse crap and egotistical.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I sincerely hope that's a joke.
Please tell me that you are kidding, that you understand what it means to compare something to a pissing contest. It in no way implies either argument is equivalent to urine.
by HanOfTheBluegrass on Aug 25, 2009 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions
The is a difference between an discussion/argument
and an argument that is a pissing match.
I meant what I said and said what I meant.
To me, a pissing match is an argument for the sake of arguing.
But, you can take my comment however you care to take it. I don’t care…
Besides, I like this line...
“I’m glad to have all of you – whether new or old – together on the ride. True Cubs fans are baseball fans too ..”
Love it…
This is a silly argument.
If i punch you in the arm once, you know how it feels. Its not going to feel drastically different if i do it every day for a year. Sure, maybe one time i get knuckle on bone, just right. And other times maybe i miss a little and it isn’t quite so bad. But you’ll get the gist with the first punch.
Yes, if i punched you in the arm again every day for a year, you’d be “longer suffering”. But it isn’t hard for the human mind to apply that pain, or the memory of that pain, over 365 days and understand what it’d be like, even without those extra 364 punches. Kudos to you, Geo, for going through that over and over. But don’t pretend we don’t understand the feeling, just like you do.
Have you done it more times? Yes. Does it mean your heart is capably of feeling more “suffering”? I don’t buy that. Everyone takes these sort of things differently. There are those of us who’ll say “bummer, maybe next year” and those who’ll write 2000 word fanposts promising to be done with the team. There are those who’ll lament for months, and those who have started thinking about football before it even happens. Time has very little to do with how it feels, when it happens.
No matter, we’ll all be back here doing our thing after. And that is the important part you seem to be forgetting. Being a fan for longer earns you nothing… that is a choice you make. You seem to want pity for the extra time you’ve spent watching this team disappoint. If your fandom has soured to the point you are openly looking for pity, that’s masochistic, and i’d have to recommend getting a new hobby.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Aug 25, 2009 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions
A lot of people have painfully missed the point of the argument.
Dude did not say that anyone was a better or worse fan, or that he regrets his fanhood, or that any new fan is a less valuable fan, or anything like that. What he said is that you cannot logically say that having seen one collapse is the same as having seen 50 collapses.
Yes, you can imagine what each of those individual collapses was like because you’ve seen one, but you cannot understand what it feels like to live through all of them, one after the other.
To your metaphor, which, I’m sorry, is a terrible one, I say the same thing. Getting punched in the arm hurts. And yes, you know have a good idea what getting punched in the arm again would feel like. But do you have any idea what it’s like, psychologically or physically, to get punched in the arm every day, day after day? No. You’ve not been punched in the arm, possibly in the same spot, day after day. Maybe you get tougher from it and don’t even notice the pain, but even that toughening is an experience that the guy who got punched once hasn’t experienced.
Everyone who is a Cubs fan has their own reasons and derives their own joy and pain. But someone who has been a Cubs fan longer obviously has had more opportunity to derive joy or pain. While it’s theoretically possible a 2-year fan has suffered more than a 50 year fan (I pity such a person), they have clearly not witnessed the specific and variable frustrations that the 50 year fan did. They don’t know what it was like to watch Ron or Ryno or anyone else not make the playoffs one great year, though they may find out this year what it’s like for D Lee not to make it. They don’t know what it was like to lose one manager or another, though they may remember Dusty leaving, or soon see Lou leave. You can compare, but you can’t compete.
That said, the original argument wasn’t even meant to be a competition. It was merely a statement of fact that having 25 more years of frustration may very well change that persons point of view, and that is just common sense.
by HanOfTheBluegrass on Aug 25, 2009 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions
The original argument maybe wasn't MEANT to be competitive, but the commenters clearly took it in that direction.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Aug 25, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions
I’d say that Geo originally stated what he thought was a simple truth, that people who have been fans longer have suffered longer, and as a result, it’s reasonable to suggest that a fan who suffers longer may come to have a more negative opinion (as evidenced by statement that adding 25 more years MIGHT change their point of view).
It wasn’t meant to be an argument, but some people couldn’t abide the premise and took to attacking the logic of it and the speaker once he defended it. His original post was actually very accepting and allowing of the possibility that he could be wrong.
He got defensive, as many of us do, but I’ve only taken to commenting because I noticed how many of his detractors weren’t addressing the logical claim he made, but rather were making illogical claims or personal attacks.
It’s a shame, because he probably made some enemies defending what was a very innocent, and non-competitive, claim. He didn’t say anyone was a better fan, just that suffering through more suffering had made some people a little more morose about the Cubs.
by HanOfTheBluegrass on Aug 25, 2009 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Ultimately, I don’t see how people can argue the logic that someone who has been a Cubs fan longer has suffered longer, if we accept as a premise that there was suffering to be had, of varying degrees, in each of those seasons.
We can argue all we want about whether someone derived too much pain or joy from a season, and that’s an issue of personal fanhood, which Geo did not question/address. What matters is that a fan who has been a fan longer has probably, cumulatively, suffered longer and enjoyed longer.
Also, as it occurs to me, the punching analogy…it works better if you view it this way: Imagine you’re punched once. Ow. Man, that smarts. Now imagine you’re punched a hundred times. In a row. Physically, that might just kill you. Emotionally, it sucked, too. The analogy of the cummulative punches being worse if they happen all in a row is much more appropriate when discussing cumulative seasons, as a bad season comes only once a year, and so you can only suffer one per year, but a punch can have greater effect when coming upon the tail of another punch, and punches can come much more frequently than once per year.
by HanOfTheBluegrass on Aug 25, 2009 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah....
… but the first punch is going to be the worst one, after which a numbness sets in. My point with the punch metaphor was to show Geo that his lamenting of how abused he was as a Cubs fan really wasn’t going to get him far, as we’d all been there. Living through last season, in and of itself, should have prepped any cubs fan for any of the range of emotions they are likely to feel.
Debate the merit of my metaphor all you’d like. Geo made points like
Fans that witnessed the ‘69 collapse have ’suffered’ more
and compared his suffering to a battle with cancer. All of this is patently redic. At any time, if you feel the suffering your team causes you is too great, walk away. You don’t have that option with cancer, and if the sting of that 69 collapse still weighs so heavily on him 40 years later, perhaps he should find something he can take less seriously for himself.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Aug 25, 2009 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions
your punching analogy
actually supports what i have said. you become numb to it.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Indeed it does.
The whole basis of his argument, that suffering increases with time, is flawed. This is one of the more obvious ways.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Aug 25, 2009 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions
One of the best posts i've read on this site
Kudos to you, sir!! I in no way want to put words into somebody else’s mouth (many of you have seen that is a pet peeve of mine), but it seems to me that geo and hawk/tim were taking each others’ arguments to the extreme. When I posted this, it was not my intention for us to bicker. Quite the opposite, actually, and I hope my two cents here will help that a bit.
I honestly respect everybody here, and in the year that I have been a member of this site I’ve become accustomed to discussing my team and sharing thoughts with people whose opinions run the spectrum, from one extreme to the other (paging BLou and Drewishdrewid!! hehe) The one and only point that I take exception to is Geo’s claim above that I should be given another quarter century (to conveniently match his time as a fan) to ensure I don’t feel differently. I’m sorry, but basically from the time that I was able to think for myself I have lived and died with this team. At the age of 7, I knew every player on the roster and filled out a lineup card every morning pretending I was the manager. I had a Shawon-o-Meter in my room, which was of course updated nightly. I had a Cubs jacket that my grandfather who was a Braves fan gave me(still have it, actually). The one year my father was the head coach of my little league team, I pitched a fit when he wanted to name our team the Pirates (Pittsburgh was really good back then, but my father thought the yellow and black uniforms would be “sharp”), telling him I wanted to be a Cub. That year, my dad and his all-star second baseman who wore number 23 in honor of his hero Ryne Sandberg led the Cubs to the league championship.
Come full circle, to August 28, 2005, when said hero was getting his number 23 retired by the Cubs. I flew from Buffalo that Sunday morning, watched the ceremony and the game, and flew back home so I could go to work Monday morning. I subscrible to EI every year for those games not on WGN, I am not able to not watch this team. Unlike many of you, I’m not already looking forward to football season. Or the Bulls. Or the Hawks. This is my season, my main event every year. I do not need another quarter century for my feelings to sort themselves out, thank you very much. This is who I am, my name is Jon and I bleed Cubbie Blue.
That being said, Geo did not offend me in any way and I’m sure he respects my fandom as much as I do his. As much as I respect Blou, and Drew, and Al, and the countless others that I will think about when I’m celebrating the World Series title that will come. They are a part of our family, after all.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 23, 2009 11:04 PM CDT up reply actions
ambrosia
You took my comment too personally.
I have total respect for your position (as I had for the original posters position)
If you have been a fan since 1986 you’ve been it long enough.
I STRONGLY disagree with those above who say that if you’ve been a fan for a week or a month or a year . . . it’s all the same. NONSENSE!
Me being a fan from the 60’s DOESN’T make me a ‘better fan.’
All I was saying is that the original poster (like myself) has 25 years on you.
That’s all. And that maybe, just maybe, you yourself will feel slightly more frustrated 25 years from now (if things stay the same).
That’s all. Another 25 years of Cub baseball might slightly alter your tone.
For the record. I was ‘born’ a Cub fan. Even though I was born and raised in the South Suburbs, my father studied music near the WGN studios and Wriglet field . . . hence we were Cub fans.
I will DIE a Cub fan. I will never abandon ship. I will never change course.
But I firmly believe ONE thing. This team will NEVER win it all in my lifetime.
Why?
2008!
They went into the playoffs somewhat ‘arrogant and over confident.’ Bad move.
And then, the choke factor.
Never in my life did I feel and sense the Cubs being squeezed around the necks like I did last year.
Watching from Phoenix, Arizona I literally could see & feel this cloud of despair hanging over the ballpark.
You can’t play sports uptight as H++L.
You have to be able to relax. The Cubs can’t. Because of their history.
I really hope that I am wrong. Really.
Thank you for clarifying, Geo
I happen to agree with most of what you say above. I do believe the Cubs will break through sooner rather than later, though. Last year, wow, that hurt a lot. I still felt much more hurt after 2003, because we were SO close. We got a taste, and how sweet it was. I really felt like last year was the year. We had magic all year, I never thought we were out of a game (and we weren’t, really), and after Z’s no hitter, I realized that good things CAN happen to this team. We just forgot to bring the bats, DeRo boots a double play ball, Loney sneaks a ball over the fence with 2 outs and a few ducks on the pond, and that was all she wrote. Last year’s team was very easy to love, this year’s not so much. I think that any fan who really cared last year, and who has stuck it out this year, can call themselves a true fan. Sure, they don’t have the time invested, but they will. And from what you said above, I know you agree with this.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 23, 2009 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions
ambro
I have written extensively on this. I will share it with you.
God spoke quite clearly in 2008.
The two franchises with the longest ‘championship draughts’ are the Chicago Cubs(100+ years) and the Arizona Cardinals (60+ years).
Being a Cub fan and living in Arizona gave me a perfect view of both teams in 2008.
The Cubs: 97 wins. The best record in the NL.
The Cards: 9-7. Barely made it in (thanks to a crappy NFC West).
The Cubs: The usual Jim Belushi pep rallies, Ron Santo “This is the year” and other hoopla (which I understand, but don’t agree with).
The Cards: We’re labeled by Cris Collingsworth and echoed by our own MIke Ditka as being possibly the WORST NFL team in playoff history.
The Cubs: Went into their series somewhat overconfident (DeRosa and Soriano made comments to that effect after the sweep) and got humiliated.
The Cards: Went into each game with a Grand Canyon sized chip on their shoulder and almost pulled off a stunning upset.
Moral to the story? Some teams (Hello Lou) haven’t figure out that the Regular season record DOESN’T matter once the playoff start.
Period.
so what year makes a fan a true fan?
since you seem to have a measuring stick for it
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
my first game at WF was in 1976, so I guess he has approved me as a fan
due to the age requirement he has. I cannot wait to call my dad and let him know the good news.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
and let my aunt know
that her breast cancer is the same as the suffering she has as a Cubs fan, I am sure she will love that……..
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
HA!!
At least the people who taught me (my grandparents) have their card. Must be the “Grandfather clause”
i've never seen cubbie-tim this fired up haha
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 23, 2009 11:36 PM CDT up reply actions
he has insulted many Cub fans with his
personal requirements, and his wants to be held up as a God for being a fan longer. He then compared his years of being a fan to cancer. Both are ignorant and GeoMark IMO owes every cancer patient world wide an apology. My aunt recently was diagnosed with breast cancer, so it is a touchy subject right now. And yes, she has been a fan long enough for GeoMark to consider her a true fan who has paid her dues in his eyes.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Complete nonsense Tim
Really. You should strive to be intelligent, not moronic.
YOU’RE the one who (stupidly) said that one day of suffering is the same as ten years of suffering.
Whether it’s cancer of Cubfandom, there IS a BIG difference between one day and ten years.
Incredible.
BTW: Keep putting words in my mouth. That’s what losers do. When defeated, they make S++T up!
what words did i put in your mouth?
you did compare it to cancer
you keep placing an amount of years to it
and you continue to keep your head so far up your own ass, you are being blinded by your own shit
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
being a Cub fan to suffering from Cancer
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
and further down
you compare it to being in prison. Based on your comparrisions for being a Cubs fan (with cancer and prison) IMHO it is time for you to walk away from the Cubs since it is only a negative influence in your life, and take a break. And I hope to see you next spring with a new found love for the game.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Tim
I know you are kind of slow on the draw so let me help you out.
46 YEARS OF SUFFERING IS WORSE THAN 26 YEARS!
BTW: You amuse me. Have an adult explain to you that 46 is TWICE as long as 23!
At least someintelligent people like cubnational agree with me.
now I have to put my two cents in on this one
sometimes quality means much more than quantity. Your 46 years might equal 10 years for somebody else, period. Again, this is not martyrdom.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 24, 2009 12:01 AM CDT up reply actions
Quality?
So you derive more QUALITY to a collapse than I do? Nonsense.
Fans that witnessed the ‘69 collapse have ’suffered’ more than those that first witnessed the ’84 collapse.
Period.
And on and on it goes.
To equate one year fans (like Tim did) to decades long fans is a slap in the face of those who have followed the team for . . . decades long.
That’s like saying that a young couple who has just celebrated their one year anniversary have accomplished as much as a couple who has just celebrated their 50th wedding aniversary.
Utter nonsense.
What's nonsense is that you think you've "suffered"
more just because you saw 1969. All that means is that you suffered more in 1969, period. Last year, we were all suffering together in October. You did not suffer more because you saw 1969. 1969 is in the past, it’s not going to change, just as 2003 is not going to change. I would never, ever have the audacity to tell a fan in 2036 that he doesn’t know what real suffering is because he wasn’t there to witness Bartman. I think that’s the point we are trying to get across.
Furthermore, every marriage is different. Some may have more joy in one year than others may in 50 years. Again, quality vs. quantity.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 24, 2009 12:15 AM CDT up reply actions
Not more . . . LONGER
What part of that is so confusing for some of you people?
It’s called ‘Length of Time.’
cubnational gets it. Why can’t you?
Again. some people apparently flunked English.
It’s not MORE, it’s LONGER.
Sheeesh!
Example:
Convict ‘A’ has been in prison 1 year..
Convict ‘B’ has been in prison 20 years.
Convict ‘B’ has suffered (if that’s the word you want to use) LONGER than convict ‘A.’
Again, it’s where we get the word ‘Long Suffering.’
You lose ALL credibility with this line:
What’s nonsense is that you think you’ve “suffered” more just because you saw 1969.
Not MORE. LONGER!
Get it?
Not more . . . longer.
Really. So simple even a caveman can figure it out.
BTW: Have someone help you and Tim and some others with the difference between the words MORE & LONGER!
want a cookie?
you think there is seniority and that your years of service mean that you are more special than those who have less years? that is not being a fan, that is being a jack ass with an ego too big for the section you sit in to watch the games.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I actually have an english degree
thank you very much. You’re choosing your words poorly, it seems.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 24, 2009 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions
Hysterical
Your quote:
What’s nonsense is that you think you’ve “suffered” more just because
Who said anything about ‘More’ (besides you and Tim)?
I SIMPLY said (notice the word ‘simple’) that if you tack on another quarter century, you might feel differently.
Adding 25 years would imply LENGTH (as in longer) not a word like MORE.
This is actually simple English. You really don’t even need a degree to understand this concept.
you did, right here.
Fans that witnessed the ‘69 collapse have ’suffered’ more
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 24, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Again
For the Billionth time:
Not MORE . . . LONGER.
Incredible.
(Please have someone explain to the difference between those two words)!
you are the one who said it, sir
those are your quotes. so dry up.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 24, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions
I said LONGER
and you misquoted me into MORE.
It’s simple.
Man up (LOL) and show me, in my posts where I ever said MORE?
(Can’t do it son . . . cause I never said it. That word is a figment of your imagination).
But go ahead . . . show me. Reproduce the quote and give the day/time of the post!
Hysterical.
You write fiction, that’s your problem.
here you go. Again, for the second time
So you derive more QUALITY to a collapse than I do? Nonsense.
Fans that witnessed the ‘69 collapse have ’suffered’ more than those that first witnessed the ’84 collapse.
Period.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 24, 2009 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions
uhho
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
to use the amount of years
would be like people using the number of posts on BCB as a means of being ""being deserving of being given their dues" or their sign up date as “being deserving of being given their dues”
honestly, if you are suffering so much, maybe you should stop watching for a while, until it becomes enjoyable again
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I can see now why you were so fired up last night, tim
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 24, 2009 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions
he got me fired up using cancer
as a comparision. I honestly do not care who has watched the Cubs longer, we all suffer when they lose, and suffering longer or shorter means nothing when the first pitch is thrown tomorrow. The amount of years are not, should not, and will never be a way to rank fans IMHO
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Aug 24, 2009 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
and i agree with you 100%
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 24, 2009 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions
consider the source
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 25, 2009 8:36 AM CDT up reply actions
actually, no
I am tired of you wanting people to praise you for your years as a fan, and believe you are better for having spent “x” years as one. A fan is a fan is a fan. The amount of years you “suffer” as you put it means shit to me, since i do not care how long anyone has been a fan.
A person can be brain dead and be considered a fan, a person can be a millionaire who is not a fan but at every game, a person can be a fan who has nothing to offer but their support as of one thirty years ago. To you each of them are the same as long as they have been around since prior to 1984. I call bullshit!
There are many on this board who I can guarantee are less than 30 year old, and they bring great insight, and information to the board, and that makes them more important than someone who is bitching about wanting to be “given his due” based on how many years he has been a fan. being a fan is not part of a Teamsters Union, so seniority does not mean anything.
Do you understand that, or does it need to be presented in smaller words?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Point of interest – in the original argument, the fan did not say he wanted praise, or was a better fan. He only pointed out that suffering longer is different from suffering less time. He even qualified it that suffering longer MIGHT change the point of view of the person he talked to. He didn’t say it was better or more meaningful to suffer longer (at least originally he didn’t). He just said that you can’t argue that suffering 1 year is the same as suffering 50.
by HanOfTheBluegrass on Aug 25, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Not the same, sure.
But you are missing the greater point Geo was trying to make by ignoring his subsequent comments.
Correct… it isn’t the same. But Geo is clearly trying to frame it as though his experience was “worse” or “more painful”, no matter if he believes so because of “more” suffering or “longer” suffering or whatever else.
He just really can’t say that with any certainty.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Aug 25, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions
the original poster of this was very well done
this is in response to Geo who said more than once that he wanted the elder fans to be given their due by the younger fans, which is asking for praise, etc.
Geo has states his opinion as fact, and when confronted with anyone elses opinion on the topic has blasted them. He has ignored his own quotes as well.
I never once said that the suffereing is the same for each person, just that each person suffers and the amount of years is not a way to rank fans.
100% of suffering is 100%, it does not matter how many hours, days, or years. I have not once said that a 15 year old fan understands what a 30 year old fan has witnessed, and so on. Just that the amount of years (longer/more time, whatever) is not how I will rank fans.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I hope the Cubs prove you wrong, Geo
.. even if your astute observation about the horrible pressure those guys had to face last year is unlike anything any other baseball team has to deal with ..
I am hoping that through some cosmic tumble of errors going through the pachinko parlor of September baseball that the Cubs will play competitively enough to stay alive. That a fire in their belly will smolder and explode the next week or so. That the Cards and the Giants stumble enough to give the Cubs a chance to catch up. That if nothing else, the Wild Card trapdoor remain open enough to give them a shot at it.
As I said in one post earlier on another thread, I am a realist. If the Nats and the Mets take our measure and batter the Cubs down .. then the winter will be a whole lot closer. But I still believe we got a shot at this thing. This team can do the job. It’s up to them .. as it always is.
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we will go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
by cubnational on Aug 24, 2009 11:33 PM CDT up reply actions
This whole I have a been a Cubs' fan longer so I hurt more stuff is just silly
and to be expected in the later days of a very disappointing season. Just because you were around (like me) for the 1969 season, does not mean you feel the disappointment of this season more than someone who became a fan during the 1984 season. That’s is just nonsense. You say: “Doing it for a couple years isn’t the same as doing it for 20.” Maybe so, but where exactly do you draw the line? 10 years? 20 years? 30 years? 40 years? See how ridiculous this is?
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 24, 2009 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions
As was noted by others elsewhere, suffering longer sometimes makes you better able to suffer new collapses and disappointments, but cumulatively speaking, no one can deny that someone who has been a Cubs fan longer has experienced more opportunity to suffer as a Cubs fan. If you’ve seen 2 losing seasons, it’s logical to guess you’ve experienced more suffering as a Cubs fan. Maybe you were more light-hearted than the new fan, but that doesn’t change the fact that you had more opportunity.
by HanOfTheBluegrass on Aug 25, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions
legally, medically, and ysychologicaly speaking
suffering cannot be measured, and to compare how people suffer is impossible, since no one suffers the same.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
to the elder fans
since some seem to believe that the amount of years as a fan makes them more special, etc. Please answer me this
You have been watching the Cubs pre-Santo yeats, does that mean you are more important, and more special of a Cub fan then Santo, Banks, Williams, Ryno, My son, etc? NO FKIN WAY! It means you are a Cubs fan, and should be not try and shove how many years you have been a fan down a newer fans throat, as if the newer fan means nothing. That is ignorant, and not a true fan.
Embrace fans, young and old, that is what makes a group of fans special.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Nobody said that we are 'special'
That’s you writing Fiction.
All I said was that to equate a one year Cub fan to a 20, 30, 40, 5,0 60 year Cub fan, in terms of ‘Cub Suffering’ is moronic.
A little perspective in life is nice sometimes.
That’s all.
Like I said, they have phrase in the English language called "Long Suffering.’
They don’t have one called ‘Short Suffering.’
If you honestly think that a ‘new’ Cub fan has ‘suffered’ as much as a longtime Cub fan . . . well that’s your perogative.
Personally, I don’t.
you asked for your dues
which is saying you are special and deserve to be treated as such….please read what you type above before accusing me of putting words into your mouth.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
well said
This I deserve some more respect because I have “suffered” longer is nonsense, and this is coming from a Cub fan who has suffered longer than the chief sufferer here, Geo.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 24, 2009 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions
Let me weigh in as someone who's been a Cubs fan since the 1960's.
I have all the badges of honor: 1969, 1984, 1989, 1998, 2003, 2007, 2008.
That doesn’t make me a “better” fan than anyone else, just been around longer. Suffered more times? Yes. Suffered more pain? Not necessarily. Virtually all of us here — I’d say 99.9% — have 2003, 2007 and 2008, and that’s damn well enough of that.
Long suffering or short suffering, we’re all in this together. Go Cubs.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Aug 24, 2009 7:12 AM CDT reply actions 3 recs
exactly
Al, thanks for expressing what I have been. A fan does not need 40 years to have scar tissue from the Cubs, as you said 2003-2008 is enough. IMHO 2008 is enough to build scar tissue for most
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
well said!
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 24, 2009 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions
I totally agree.
All this bickering about who is a bigger fan or suffered more is childish.
That being said, I think I may understand however what the older fans are thinking. Just look at those years you have posted. It’s not the years that they made it to the postseason that caused the feeling of long sufferitude. It’s the years in between. The years when there was barely a glimmer of hope. Those are some pretty big gaps there between 69 to 84 and 89 to 98. Relatively speaking the last 11 years have been very exciting, especially the last few. So to an older fan it must seem easier to like a team that has been in the postseason 3 times in the last 6 years. Not saying it’s right. Just saying.
"Fasten your seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Aug 24, 2009 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions
good point, and point taken
the counterpoint could be there is more suffering when expectations are higher and the Cubs flop (2003-2008), than then they have no expectations (which held true for a long long long long time)
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
That does nothing to disprove that a fan who suffered through 69 to 84, 89-98, and 2003-2008 hasn’t suffered longer or suffered more than the fan who only suffered through 2003-2008. And the argument of possible adaptation does nothing to prove that, either.
by HanOfTheBluegrass on Aug 25, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions
please provide me with the value
of suffering, and how it is measured. then show me how to compare two peoples value to suffering, with the end result showing who has suffered longer/more.
Thee is no way that you can provide me with any of what I just now asked, it is impossible to do so, since it cannot be done. Based on that fact, for anyone to state he/she has suffered more or less is a myth.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Well said katie
That being said, I think I may understand however what the older fans are thinking
That’s all. You show yourself to GeoMak as an intelligent person and fan.
Yes, yes, yes.
I’ve been a fan since ‘64. ’69 was bad but periods like ’64-’66, the mid-70s and early 80s were grotesque. The only two times in my life the Cubs were contenders for more than a season was the team from the late 60s to early 70s and now.
If suffering more is measured in accumulation of time, then I have suffered more than many here. But as was pointed out by someone above, no one can know the level of suffering each person feels. I am still a season ticket holding fan but the years have made me a cynical fan. The cynicism and dark sense of humor I have developed over the years is like a protection I wear to remain a Cub fan. If I didn’t laugh at some of the absurd things this team does, I would never stop crying.
I can honestly say that now, most people here probably suffer more day-to-day with the Cubs than I do. I just won’t let them get to me like I used to. I won’t give up being a fan but they can never fully have my heart again.
Should they ever win it all I will simply fall to my knees and weep – both tears of joy and tears that the whole thing – the whole unforgiving brutal slog – is finally over.
Right
Nobody said (least of all myself) that LONGER is BETTER!
However, LONGER is LONGER!
To say that a one year Cub fan (as Cubbie-Tim) has ‘suffered’ as long as a 20, 30, 40 50, 60 year old fan is asinine.
People (unfortunately a certain segment of bloggers ) put words in my mouth.
I never said MORE, I said LONGER!
As cubnational correctly said:
There’s no way anyone who has been a Cubs fan for a couple years to really understand just what it’s like to be a Cubs fan for a whole lot longer than that and who has lived during all of the crash and burns. No way. It’s just plain common sense. It’s just history you can’t ignore.
That’s all. He summarized the situation perfectly.
To equate the ( the so called suffering) of a newer fan, with those who have followed this team for generations, does a disservice to those who have followed them for so long.
25 years from now (if form holds steady) guys like Tim and Ambro will say to NEW Cub fans : “Hey. we’ve been following this team for DECADES! As much as you might be hurting right now, imagine 30, 40 50 years of this BS!”
not true at all. and don't assume you know how I will feel
to be perfectly honest, I didn’t hurt more last year because of 2007. and I didn’t hurt more in 2007 because of 2003, etc. Get over yourself, really.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 24, 2009 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions
ambro
I personally couldn’t give a rats A++ how you felt in 2007 or 2008.
Means nothing to me. Really.
What does mean something to me is people NOT distorting what I said.
I never said MORE . . . I said LONGER.
It’s not my fault that ‘some’ are unable to discern the difference between those two words
Look above, please
and please don’t mistake that you’ve ticked off at least 3 people in this very thread. I don’t think that’s a coincidence. I don’t think that you’re being “misquoted” or that the rest of us are “moronic” and can’t understand the language. I think you are showing yourself as “holier than thou”, and that attitude is simply not welcome here.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 24, 2009 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't care how many people
have been ‘ticked off.’
That just means that those people are wrong.
OF COURSE I’VE BEEN MISQUOTED!
Over and over again (by you and TIM)!
I talked about LENGTH . . . and you guys have talked about MORE.
I never said more, but you guys constantly put that word (which I never said) in my mouth.
SHOW ME WHERE I SAID IT??????????
look above.
everybody can see it. And everytime you deny it, it makes you look more wrong.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 24, 2009 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions
he posted your quote
about MORE not LEGNTH….please go read your own words.
where have I misquoted you, since I KNOW i have not done so
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Show me a quote, son
Take your time . . show me.
Put your money where your mouth is. I’ve made a million posts here. Show me ONE where I used the word MORE (not longer)!!!!
What a joke!
They already have
Just look above, or do I have to stoop to your level and suggest you do not have enough of an education to understand the concept of looking at your past posts?
Why is this so important to you? Go buy a cap or license plate that says “#1 Cubs Fan” and be done with it.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
Again Steve
show me a quote. Nobody has. When you say this:
They already haveit’s a LIE!
I’ve been waiting for ONE quote from me. Haven’t seen it yet.
this was posted above
and it is a direct quote FROM YOU GEO
Fans that witnessed the ‘69 collapse have ’suffered’ more
next question?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
And then there is this one
A ‘one or two year Cub fan’ has ‘suffered’ as much as a 50 year Cub fan, because, after all,
“If you have been through it once, then you know how it feels!”
Let me help you out here. Time DOES matter.
Going through it ‘once’ isn’t pleasant. It’s not fun.
Going through it for decades is excruciating.
You indicate that there is a difference in understanding the suffering because by your logic in order for that suffering to be excruciating you had to go through it for decades. That is crazy – there are many of us here who do not have decades under our belt and have experienced the pain and suffering of our team.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
Geo it is called adaptation
if you continue to live the same thing (location, mental state, emotional state, climate, etc) you adapt, and the suffering (as you continue to dwell on) should actually lessen based on adaptation.
you did mention being in jail as a comparision, an inmate of 20 years is not suffereing, as he has adapted to that life. He may not enjoy it, or like it, but suffering in jail would be the initial entrance, and once you adapt, the suffering is less. This is what a friend said to me who spent time (not 20 years, but enough time to be able to comment on it) explained to me
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Ok
Then I guess I am “a complete +++++” Which really makes sense since I am an Accountant and I add numbers alot.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
I work accounts receivable
and have been thru certification more than once for FDCPA and FCRA laws. I guess we are two bean counters in a pod haha
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Nice
Yeah I worked as an auditor for a large regional public accounting firm for about 5 years. I specialized in audits of higher education institutions. I now work as a supervisor in restricted accounting at The University of New Mexico. Alot of financial reporting and analysis. But wait – we don’t know the difference between “longer” and “more”. Its pathetic really.
:)
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
I know
Geo has suffered thru 1800 comments, and I have suffered thru 10600, so I believe he should give me my dues
/SARCASM
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
you also compared it to cancer and being in jail
which both tell me that being a CUbs fan hurts you and is not a positive part of your life. Maybe you need to step away and take a breather from the Cubs until they are something you can enjoy once again
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Pathetic TIm.
YOU said that if a person “suffers one day it’s the same as suffering 20 years.”
I said tell that to a long suffering cancer patient . . . or a long suffering prisoner.
That’s all. I didn’t COMPARE being a Cub fan to a cancer patient or to being a prisoner.
That’s you (AGAIN) putting false words in my mouth.
It’s pathetic.
you mentioned suffering from.......
as a comparision to “support” your argument, meaning you are comparing it. I guess you have not debated before. You continue to use things that you cannot compare to being a Cubs fan, on ANY LEVER
Cancer
Prison
Waterboarding
What is next, street pavement?
Not one of the comparisions you use can be properly applied to the conversation, since they are all much too different.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
LEVER = LEVEL
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
No, not suffering FROM
I never said that Cub suffering is the same as Cancer, Prison, Waterboarding.
Again you are not SMART enough to understand what I am saying.
I said (in response to your idiotic claim that ‘suffering’ is the same no matter if it’s one day or 100 years)
THAT LENGTH OF TIME MATTERS!
I can’t help it if some can’t figure that out.
you need to be very careful
about telling people they are not smart. I can assure you, this will do nothing for your credibility here.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 24, 2009 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Your not in a position to judge my credibility
Whwn people constantly have trouble understanding the difference between MORE & LONGER . . . well, those people have NO credibility with me.
None whatsoever.
well, perhaps in 25 years....
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 24, 2009 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions
legnth of time should have an inverse effect
it is called adaptation.
please do not call me an “idiot” or “not smart” that is not needed. I do understand that you ahve tried to use those three as manner to change how I look at time suffering.
HORRIBLE GEOMAK ANALAGY 1
A cancer patient suffers more at the beginning with chemo and the initial surgery, than they do with regular check ups in the future. They are emotionally and physically drained, not to mention the initial shock of the first diagnosis. A cancer patient who has completed chemo still has the scars, but is not suffering as he/she once was.
HORRIBLE GEOMAK ANALAGY 2
An inmate adapts to being in jail, and lives life day to day. An inmate thrown into the cell for the first time has the shock and fear of what will happen. The 20 year inmate is no longer suffering as much as the other.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Geo did not originally state that someone who suffers in their 20 years cannot adapt and grow used to it, but he did state that after 20 years, they might (and later he said they will) have suffered more/have a different perspective.
Just because someone learns to accept the suffering over time does not mean that they haven’t suffered longer (or More) than the person who just started. For one thing, they have already been through the new pain and new problems that the new person is suffering, and they have added additional types of suffering, as well as mounting suffering. They know what it’s like to suffer for 20 years, and someone who has suffered 20 years will not understand that feeling (though it’s possible they had more pain, for instance, in their 1 year).
Cancer and prison are excellent examples (and despite what people have said, he didn’t compare them to being a Cubs fan, only to how suffering longer is suffering longer, and probably worse).
And your assertion about adaptation is irrelevant to the initial conversation, again, because regardless of how you feel about the pain now, if you’ve been dealing with it for 20 years, you’ve had a different, longer experience than someone who has only dealt with it for 1 year. And the person who has dealt with it for 1 year, Geo asserted, may (and he did stress may/might) have a more negative feeling, overall, after 20 years.
by HanOfTheBluegrass on Aug 25, 2009 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions
once again
it is impossibole to measure suffering, meaning that both you and Geo cannot state that someone has or has not suffered more/less/longer/shorter than another.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Just so you know, at least one other person sees what you're trying to say.
I don’t know why people are accusing you of comparing Cubs fandom to having cancer. You clearly only used the cancer example to point out the ridiculousness of suggesting suffering 1 day is the same as suffering years, etc. You NEVER said being a Cubs fan was like suffering from Cancer, and it’s sad that people keep trying to accuse you of that.
A lot of people just don’t understand the argument you’re trying to make, and are trying to demonize you as seeking attention when you were just trying to state a logical assertion.
by HanOfTheBluegrass on Aug 25, 2009 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I call bullshit
as i said above
this is in response to Geo who said more than once that he wanted the elder fans to be given their due by the younger fans, which is asking for praise, etc.
Geo has states his opinion as fact, and when confronted with anyone elses opinion on the topic has blasted them. He has ignored his own quotes as well.
I never once said that the suffereing is the same for each person, just that each person suffers and the amount of years is not a way to rank fans.
100% of suffering is 100%, it does not matter how many hours, days, or years. I have not once said that a 15 year old fan understands what a 30 year old fan has witnessed, and so on. Just that the amount of years (longer/more time, whatever) is not how I will rank fans.
in addition to that, if we want to get psychological about it, no two people will suffer the same, and the amount of suffering one person feels to one lost season can be equal to the amount another feels over two seasons, or only one half season.
Suffering CANNOT BE MEASURED like, say batting average. trying to measure the amount of suffering (or stress while we are at it) is impossible.
You can say that you have witnessed more loses, witnessed more seasons of bas baseball, those are facts. To measure suffering in years is scientifically, mathmatically, and pyschology impossible.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
GeoMak
I think its time to step away from the computer, you are picking a fight with several of the more level headed folks here — you have nothing to gain by this.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
I'm not picking a fight with anyone.
It’s not MY fault that they don’t understad the difference between the words MORE and LONGER.
Other intelligent people (like cubnational and katie) do.
Others (unbelievably) don’t.
Can’t help’em. It’s SIMPLE English.
you refer to legnth of time
as in longer time period, meaning more time, right? and acording to you, if I am understanding correct, those with more time in as a Cubs fan deserve their due (which you said above, and later said you didnt say anything like that).
I do not agree with you on that at all.
There is not a ranking of fans by amount of time, more suffering, more years, etc. This is not the Teamsters Union where seniority allows you to be special just because.
You continue to insult people by saying they are not able to understand, yet whenever put on the spot you resort to an attacking atitude, full of a defensive tone, instead of a conversation.
I do not know why you feel that you need to be given any “dues” for the amount of time you have choosen to put into the Cubs, since that was a personal choice, and you decided on your own to continue to follow them. That has nothing to do with me, or anyone else here, and is not something I will praise you for, which is what you seem to be looking for, and have stated you desetve.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I do not agree with you on that at all.
Fine. That’s your opinion.
You also said that one day as a Cub fan is the same as 30, 40, 50 years.
Pathetic.
you are 1/2 correct
lets read what I said again
100% of suffering is 100% does not matter if its 1 week, 1 year, or 95 years, it is still the same. It seems to me, like you are trying to make yourself feel special, and above some other fans, just because you are an elder fan. That is not right and I refuse to look at the amount of years as a fan as how to rank a fan. For all WE know you have been a fan for 1 year and are saying different. And to me that means nothing, we are all fans, how long any of us have suffered means nothing, we all suffer losing season after losign season.
I never said that the amount of suffering is the same, but that suffering short of long term is suffering. I also never said 1 day (thought I would point that out, since you are worried about properly quoting everything).
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Pathetic??
Are you serious? Silly choice of words considering you have wasted so much time trying to “get your due” on a blog of strangers.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
Geo
what do you not agree with the above, so I can explain myself, incase there is misunderstanding? I state that there is no ranking of fans based on seniority, and that you are insulting people (which you have, saying that those who do not agree with you are not intelligent see quote A below, which does not include the multiple times you have called people here pathetic, etc). I stated that your time as a fan has nothing to do with anyone else here, it is your choice to follow the team, and for that reason you should not be praised, which you have asked for (see quote B).
Quote A
Other intelligent people (like cubnational and katie) do.
Others (unbelievably) don’t.
Quote B
i was just trying to give us ‘Long Suffereing Fans’ our due.
Please read this and actually reply without being snarky, without attacking in a defensive tone, as I am asking you what I am missing here (once again) so we can have a conversation.
As fans, we should be happy to cheer together, and jsut as quickly offer a hug when needed in times of a big loss. The thought that we should rank each other based on years is insulting to everyone. There are people on here who have less years than I do, and I could care less, since they can have a conversation about the Cubs, not about how old they are.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
am I missing something here
legnth of time = more years, but it does not equate to being used as a replacement for more according to Geo. I am confuzzled here
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Sure you are missing something here (DUH)!
Let me help you out here:
Two guys are waterboarded TODAY (for the first time).
Guy ‘A’ is waterboarded today . . . and never again.
Guy ‘B’ is waterboarded today . . . and for the next year, everyday.
Both know the terror and agony of being waterboarded. Both of them.
HOWEVER, one was waterboarded MUCH, Much longer.
Maybe the guy who was waterboarded for a year came to enjoy it. Or get used to it. Who Knows?
All I know is , to me, one guy suffered much LONGER than the other guy.
And this confuses you how?
suffered much longer
you mean suffered more? Of is suffering much longer the same as suffering less?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Longer
“As in “Long Suffering” Cub fan.
You figure outwhat that means. If you think longer is LESS . . . fine.
If you think longer is MORE . . . fine.
All I EVER said was LONGER!
long suffering is more right?
since LONG does stand for a great amount or distance, meaning, which is saying the same as MORE
you have said MORE and your own quote was given twice.
AUGH! BLOU WHERE ARE YOU, ATLEAST YOU ARE NOT A BROKEN RECORD AND HAVE SOMETHING INSIGHTFUL
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
All I know is , to me, one guy suffered much LONGER than the other guy.
that is YOUR OPINION not FACT. You state it is an opinion, but want everyone to carry it as fact. I think you need to realize you are arguing what your opinion is and demanding it to be accepted as rule of thumb
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
It's not opinion.
It’s fact. Longer is longer.
I’m currently on the phone with a friend of mine who has followed the Cubs since 1948, three years after their last WS trip when they lost to Detroit.
And YOU’RE telling me that a new Cub fan has ‘suffered’ as much as my friend has who has been following them since 1948.
Pure Lunacy!
I'm thinking
Any friend of yours has suffered far more than any of us.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
It’s a logical fallacy to direct a personal attack such as this against someone.
by HanOfTheBluegrass on Aug 25, 2009 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions
as opposed to Geo
calling posters stupid, pathetic, and liars when they do not agree with his opinion alone, not to mention when he says that they are quoting him wrong, and his reply os to his own quote saying it. You are cherry picking in this for whatever reason.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I am saying that
when you state
All I know is , to me, one guy suffered much LONGER than the other guy.
that is YOUR OPINION not FACT.
Please take the moment to read what is said, then comment, instaed of jumping to conclusions and misunderstanding EVERYTHING. Then take a minute to read what you have been quoted saying, and continue to state you never said.
I have continued to say that if it is suffering, that means it is a negative part of your life (or anyones life) and it is time to turn the game off. I do not continue to do anything (by choice, like watching baseball is) that makes me feel as if I am suffering. nor do I state that I deserve to be given my dues just because I have been watching the Cubs longer than others.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Theoretically, a man who goes through a negative experience once can suffer more than someone who goes through it for a year, but to base an argument that that is opinion vs fact is very shaky.
It is more than reasonable to argue it as fact that someone who goes through negative experiences far longer has suffered both longer and more, and there is a distinction, yes.
I would say that though you have a better grasph than some others, you have also greatly missed the initial argument point, as well as much of what came after it.
You also missed the point that Geo never qualified his suffering, and he never stated he was worse off than any other Cub fan, as every fan takes it differently. What he did say was that it is obvious that if you watch/support the Cubs for longer, witness more of their failures, you have suffered longer.
You’re arguing semantics and theoretical possibilities when you say that it’s opinion that someone who suffers 20 years hasn’t suffered more than someone who’s suffered 1 year.
We’re all acting under the premise that we agree that there was a negative aspect, a suffering, present in watching the Cubs lose each year. That’s a commonly accepted fact about sports for every team every year except the one that wins. Obviously, there are more than enough positive aspects of fandom to let us stick around year to year despite not winning everything every year.
If we accept that seeing your team blow its chances each of these years was bad, than obviously seeing more than one of these blown chances is more suffering, or more opportunity for suffering, than seeing just one. Yes, the new fan can understand what it felt like to lose this year, but they don’t know what it was like to add this year to last year, and the year before, and the year before. They simply don’t have that experience.
It is a fact that people who have lived longer have had more time to experience things. It is a fact that someone who has participated in the same activity has had less opportunity to experience the same activity, assuming they’re both taking advantage of each opportunity each year. It is a fact that, if we accept each loss to be negative in some way, the longer fan has experienced more negatives. Whether the most recent negative didn’t bother them as much as the first does not change that they have experienced more negatives.
by HanOfTheBluegrass on Aug 25, 2009 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions
it is fact that people all react to the same exact
situation differently, in physical, mental, emotional, and psychilogical.
and yes, when he said
All I know is , to me, one guy suffered much LONGER than the other guy.
that is an opinion, without having first hand knowledge of both parties being compared. People say working in bill colelctions is horrible, where I love it. That means to one who was in collections for 5 years “suffered” due to not liking it, would have suffered longer than me since I have been doing it for 11 years and enjoy it.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Lets go back to the begining...
Geo, in his first reply post on this thread referenced this quote from Ambro
Admittedly, I sometimes think of the Cubs as my first true love. I cannot, however, understand comparing that love to an abusive relationship.
Geo stated
It’s clear that you just haven’t been at it long enough. Tack on another quarter century of heartbreak and you too might think of the Cubs that way.
My original reply to Geo was
It doesn’t take a half a century, quarter century, or decade to understand the joy, hope, pain or sadness of being a Cubs fan. It only takes one such season to cast the die of true Cubs fan. Do not trivialize his feelings by saying, " it’s clear that you just haven’t been at it long enough". Ambro’s feelings are genuinely his – regardless of how long he has felt them.
Everyone, think back to your first season being a Cubs fan. Your love was new, passionate, exciting. Then the disappointment you felt during and after the collapse in 1969, 1984, 1989, 1998, 2003, 2007, or 2008 was raw and heartbreaking.
You felt it then and UNDERSTOOD what many already knew and many had yet to experience, but eventually would. It was then that you knew you were a Cubs fan and always would be.
Everyone who is a Cubs fan realizes in their own time. However, once they realize, then they UNDERSTAND what it is that everyone else that is a Cubs fan get so worked up about.
Right
One such season.
However, MULTIPLY one such season by 20 or 30 or 40 and the level of despair, as wriiten by the original poster (which ambro replied to) might be more self evident.
That’s all. The original poster had 25 years on ambro.
25 years matters (whether you think so opr not)!
let me guess, it matters because it is longer but not more.........
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Longer is longer
You are free to decide if that qualifies as “More.”
Just DON’T put words in my mouth that I NEVER said.
I never said more, I only said longer.
Misquoting people is pathetic (especially when you can look at ALL my posts and get it right.).
did you skip the multiple times
you were quoted saying MORE on purpose? In case you did, here it is AGAIN, please stop making us false statements about being quoted wrong
GEOMAK SAID THE FOLLOWING QUOTE…..HE SAID MORE AND WAS NOT MISQUOTED
Fans that witnessed the ‘69 collapse have ’suffered’ more
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Right
And if you aren’t smart enough to understand that Cub fans who have followed this team for 40, 50 years haven’t suffered MORE (In addition to LONGER) now might be a good time to extract your HEAD from your A++!
Only a complete idiot would say (as has constantly been said) that a NEW Cub fan has suffered as LONG as a ‘long-time’ Cub fan or as MUCH as a ‘long-time’ Cub fan.
Right. Got it. So a New Cub fan that just ‘suffered’ through last season’s embarassing postseason and this years underachieving team has suffered as LONG or as MUCH as those from the 50’s, 60’ 70’ and so on.
Got it. PURE STUPIDITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BTW: God grants us ‘free will.’ We can be as intelligent or a stupid as we want.
P.S. Intelligent is MUCH, MUCH better.
you are changing what I say
first, I quoted where you said MORE when you continue to say you never said MORE.
I have said that suffering is suffering, no matter how long. I have not once tried to place any weight on how much a person suffers over a timeframe, as you continue to do, and as you have stated over and over.
Pure stupidity is ignoring facts, such as your own quotes when presented with them.
Show me supporting proof of the measured amount of suffering that a fan goes thru, since you are stating it as fact, not an opinion.
Start posting as an aduilt, without having to say people are stupid if they do not agree with your opinion and, God forbid come up with their own opinions (afrter 33 years, I believe I am allowed to make my own opinion). I base my opinoni on family and friends who range from 20 to 82 and the “suffering” as you state as fact that does not match up with what I witness. The elders in my family have adapted to the Cubs losing, and when they lose in the post season, regular season, sprint training, etc do not carry the weight of the loss as younger members seem to. And no one in my family is a bigger Cubs addict than my grandfather, who has learned how to laugh a loss off.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I think Geo misstepped by arguing that he never said “more”, and many of you used that as an excuse to invalidated his arguments, which is improper.
The only point that matters is that Geo was arguing that being a Cubs fan longer gives you more opportunity for disappointment, means you’ve probably been disappointed longer. That doesn’t mean Joe the New Kid didn’t find this season more disappointing, or that he wasn’t more disappointed this season than Geo his first season, or that he couldn’t, theoretically, have more Cubs disappointment in his heart than the 40 year fan. But the last is HIGHLY improbable. It’s a FACT, and it really is, that suffering longer is suffering longer, whether you adapt or not. That doesn’t mean you want to quit, and it doesn’t mean you want to be praised for suffering longer. Geo never said that, no matter the specious attacks that tried to say he did. He merely said that a fan that suffered longer might have more reason to be frustrated than a fan who hasn’t. Some people responded, illogically, that suffering one bad season is the same as suffering many. While one individual experience might be comparable to suffering one other individual experience, one can’t argue that suffering through one is the same as suffering through many, no matter how the individuals feel after each one. It’s just simple math.
Your insistence that proof must be shown that suffering 2 years is worse than suffering 1, just to go down to basics, is illogical. The proof is in the premise, is in the shared definitions of suffering. Yes, there can always be exceptions, and Geo didn’t even say that a 50 year fan is automatically more depressed than a 2 year fan. All he said was that adding 25 years of fandom, of disappointing seasons (and every season not ending in a Title is disappointing in some way), MIGHT make a person view the team a little more pesimistically. Because logically the person who has been a fan through more disappointing seasons has suffered longer. It doesn’t matter if you can suppose a fan who isn’t disappointed when the Cubs lose (some would get into hissy fits that that is not a fan), or a fan who kills himself after one loss. A fan who has seen more losses has suffered more experiences of loss than one who has seen fewer losses.
And Geo didn’t say people weren’t entitled to their opinion. In the original post, it was carefully and broadly stated that 25 more years of losses might make the person feel less good about it all, in summation. He didn’t even say it was a fact. You all got hung up on facts later, and for what it’s worth, it seems pretty factual, anyhow.
by HanOfTheBluegrass on Aug 25, 2009 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions
are you done cherry picking my comments alone
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
and FYI
suffering and disappointment are not the same, you are switching his words for him now.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
he ran longer
does that not mean he ran for more time or more distance
his foot is longer means he has more foot in legnth
i want the footlong Subway sammich cuz i am hungry means you want the larger sammich, meaning you want MORE sammich
not hard to figure out IMO
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Geomak has said that someone who has been a Cubs fan for one season is a Cubs fan just like any other, and he won’t say they’re a better or worse Cubs fan. What he’s arguing is that seeing one collapse is not the same as seeing 50 collapses in a row, (or even spread out, had the Cubs had more victories). Seen one, seen em all does not mean you know what it’s like to have seen them all, only that you can guess what each individual one might have felt like because you’ve seen one yourself.
Geo just pointed out that seeing 25 more might, and probably will, make a person feel a little worse about all of the losses. Doesn’t mean they’ll give up on the Cubs, but it does mean they’ll have seen more bad season endings, and know what it feels like to have seen more, and that experience is, by its nature, probably a bad thing you’d prefer was good.
by HanOfTheBluegrass on Aug 25, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions
And yet, no response from Geo...
Go back to the first response to Geo at the top of this thread.
I said,
Do not trivialize his feelings by saying, " it’s clear that you just haven’t been at it long enough". Ambro’s feelings are genuinely his – regardless of how long he has felt them.
They are his feelings, and the length of time he has felt them DOES NOT MATTER because THEY ARE HIS FEELINGS. PERIOD.
exactly
you cannot measure suffering, you cannot measure pain, you cannot properly state you have suffered more or longer, since the moment you are happy or content the suffering ends, meaning technically you have to start to suffer again.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
This thread reminds of this Monty Python routine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo
Here’s hoping GeoMak , Cubbie-Tim, Big John etc get to do a version of this after celebrating a Cubs WS championship and looking back on who suffered more .
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
And what is your basis for this argument?
Is this another of your opinions that we need to see as fact?
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 24, 2009 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Geo said above why he thinks it won’t happen (and he referenced 2008), though it’s obvious he would desire the win as much as any of the rest of us, and it might be more meaningful to him, he might appreciate it more, because he has more examples of times we didn’t win it filling up his memories than a newer fan.
Doesn’t mean a newer fan wouldn’t get a lot more joy out of it – no one can say how someone else truly feels and perceives – but it’s reasonable to believe the fan who’s gone longer without it will appreciate it more.
by HanOfTheBluegrass on Aug 25, 2009 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions
you sure seem compelled to try nad rescue GeoMak
any particular reason? You are challanging, or trying to convince those who do not agree with GeoMak’s opinion into agreeing wiht him. You write very well thought out replies, do not get me wrong, but I only see you commenting in defense of him. Why is that?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
20 bucks says it's him...
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 25, 2009 8:26 PM CDT up reply actions
wouldn't be surprised
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 26, 2009 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions
then why do you care about how long you suffer
stop suffering by no longer caring
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Things I have enjoyed about the Cubs ( in no particular order)
My first year that I watched the Cubbies was in 1983.I started watching them because of Harry Carrie.When I was young my dad and I would go out to the car and listen to Harry Carrie do the play by play on KMOX in St.Louis and listen to the Cardinals fading in and out on the car radio.Now here he was several years later along with Steve Stone broadcasting on tv for the Cubbies!
That first year they did ok but 1984 was the year!How exciting to see them win thier division in Pittsburgh (if memory serves me correct) I didn’t realize at the time that this was their first division win in Thirty four years! Didn’t matter I was hooked and win or loose I have and will always be a Cubs fan. To me it doesn’t matter if you have suffered with the Cubbies one year or one hundred years,once you get hooked your part of the Cubs family period .
Anyway here are events or players I have enjoyed watching through the years(no doubt I Will forget some)
Ron Cey ( The penguin)one of the first Cubs players I remember watching
Lee Smith
Ryan Sandberg
Mark Grace
Steve Stone down on beautiful Wrigley field….
Harry Carrie always saying “hello everybody its a beautiful day for baseball” at the beginning of the tv broadcast
Andre Dawson (The Hawk)
Ron Santo (never saw him as a player but get a kick out of him in the radio booth)
Why has he never been inducted in Cooperstown?(http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=santoro01)
Greg Maddux
Rick Sutcliffe
Shawon Dunston (The Shawon-o-meter)
Kerry Wood (20 strikeouts in one game was just incredible and incredible to watch on tv)
Ok……..
you get my point…..Yes we have had our share of disappointments with the Cubs but there are also a lot of great games and plays we have had the pleasure of watching the them do .
So instead of arguing about who has suffered the most (which is about the silliest thing I have read,no doubt Cardinals fans will get a kick out of it though) how about some memories of some great games,players,and or plays you have seen over the years? No doubt you “old timers” have alot of great games you have seen.
Lets hear about them!
GO CUBS GO!!
Fellow Cub Dudes and Dudettes
Man, come on.
Let’s get off this platform, already, ok? We’ve missed the train.
I’d love to hash this one out with you all somewhere at a good restaurant, but I sure wouldn’t be buying the booze .. I’d hate to see what might happened if you got really lubed up.
Look, we’re all Cubs fans here (it’s arguable sometimes with certain misanthropes here who post only to piddle on others, and we know who those are) . Whether or not you joined in this year or 80 years ago is kind of irrelevant. Pain is pain. Some have endured it longer, some have not. Let’s just leave it at that, folks.
The Cubs’ failure to do their thing is the issue at hand. Watching it for years or just in the last four months is never an enjoyable thing. I think all of us are pretty raw, if you want me to be honest, over all of this .. and even my own tough baseball hide is, as usual, worn to the nerve endings. I hate seeing things as they are.
But it just ain’t cool, however, to go ripping others up over the minutiae of personal discomfort in bemoaning one’s personal disappointment with the Cubs. My Cubs experience isn’t like anyone’s else’s, but it’s mine and I own it. I wish it included fantasy camps and season tickets behind home plate at Wrigley, and a long wished return home in Chicago, but that’s fine. I can live with loving them afar off, on the road, and here on BCB. Let’s all respect that others have their own ways of dealing with it and leave at that, ok? I cannot believe this thread has gotten so incredibly ugly.
If it ever happens, and there’s a BCB picnic in a public park in Chicago on Memorial Day or something, I’d be there in a heartbeat .. and I hope I could say all of you’d be there and there’d be animated discourse, but no hard feelings. We’re fans of the Chicago Cubs and while we darn well got some reason to rage and rumble, in the end, it’s just a game – and as I said, the season ain’t over. GO CUBS GO!
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we will go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
Geo/Han
Since this has started to get into science, psychology, etc, I am going to agree to disagree.
I want to just state in my closing argument……
To quote a lawyer (whom happens to be my Aunt)
Pain and suffering are difficult to value because no two people will suffer in the same way. There is no simple formula for determining the amount of suffering or pain one has.
A doctor, lawyer, teacher, law officer, nor fan can truly state that someone has suffered more or less (years, number of times, or pure quantity) than another properly. Like anything else it comes to a pinnacle and then either flat lines or decreases.
Using punching (as was done above) at first it hurts then hurts more, until it reaches pinnacle, then the pain becomes numbing (ask anyone who has boxed, or done martial arts, lived with back pains, etc). The pain is there, but you have learned to cope with it as though it is not there and push forward. This is called adaptation, or in some cases pain tolerence.
Anyone who wants to try and go back and forth measuring the amount of pain or suffering in any form, is only able to state their feelings on it, not what another has felt due to the inability to measure in correlation to each other.
Saying you suffered for 40 years (for example) is inaccurate. The entire 40 years were all suffering? Were you suffering each inning, each pitch, each out, only at the end of games, etc?
Stating 40 years is too general and broad, not accurate. Stating that someone who has only been a fan for, say 5 years, has not suffered the same is opinion, once again based on the fact that it is impossible to measure suffering like you can a fever.
You can, correctly state that you have witnessed more loses than another. That you have endured the more losing seasons. That you have seen more missed opportunities that caused you frustration, etc.
We all generalize saying "this team has frustrated the hell out of me for years" which cannot be measured, but is commonly accepted, same with the saying "suffering for years". My entire point is that you cannot say you have more/less or longer/shorter of a unit that cannot be measured by anything other than your personal opinion
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Boom.
Roasted.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Aug 25, 2009 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Fans
Secondly, I took a bit of exception to the poster’s plea for us to “show management” we won’t take it anymore. It was implied that we should stop attending games, buying merchandise, etc as a form of consumer activism.
It seemed to work for the White Sox before their recent run of success. It sure wouldn’t hurt to boycott merchandise and/or games a little. Where do you think all these rediculous contracts come from? It would help to force management to build from within, rather than overpay for old, underachieving veterans.
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Sir Winston Churchill
I'm taking my sister to Thursday's game
The rate the Cubs are free-falling, it most likely won’t matter. I’m still going though. I’m a Cubs fan, like my father before me and his father before him and his father before him, fresh off the boat in the 1920s. Cubs fans are used to bad baseball, be it now or in 2006 or in 1997 or the vast majority of the years we’ve been Cubs fans.
I don’t really care about this semantic debate about “more” versus “longer” and who has the cooler scars and whose suffered more and whatnot. I’m a Cubs fan because of family and memory and hope. I’m a Cubs fan because when I go to Wrigley, I’m with 40,000 of my best friends, if only for a few hours.
Keep the faith.
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...
by Curtain Jerker on Aug 25, 2009 10:55 PM CDT reply actions
Long suffering
I think I’ve got someone who can beat you all. My wife’s uncle is 91, and has followed the Cubs since the 1920s. Still, he was born 10 years too late to see them win a World Series.
Although he’s pretty much blind now, he still has all of his senses, and is disappointed with the team this year. Still, I saw him Sunday and the first thing he said to me was, “What time is the Cubs game today?”
I don’t know if I’ll care that much when I’m 91, especially if they don’t win by then.
"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry
reminds me of my grandfather
who in 1998 called me at work to tell me about Wood’s 20K game. he was blind in one eye, and had a nasty catarac in the other, so had to look 4 feet ot the left of the TV to watch it. Today (with my grandma passed) he lives in Springfield and has his stepson (who is a Cardinas fan) read him the Chicago Tribune and Suntimes articles about the Cubs. I truly think he just loves making a Cardinals fan read about the Cubs to him. He is in his late 80’s.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Great story
Glad he’s still around and following the games.
"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry
+ 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000 BCB points to the grandpa in Springfield!
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we will go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
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