2009 Arbitration
The Cubs have a handful of free agents to deal with, many of differing status. Seeing as how this site has no shortage of armchair general mangers, here's your chance.
To whom would you offer arbitration:
Type A:
RIch Harden...$7mil
Kevin Gregg...$4.2mil
John Grabow...$2.3mil
Type B:
Reed Johnson...$3mil
Definitions:
Arbitration is a funny game, even if you know the rules, but here are the basics:
1) Players may sign contracts prior to arbitration (obviously) or may reject arbitration and become free agents. But once they sign elsewhere points 2 and 3 are enforced.
2) If a Type A player is offered arbitration and signs with a different team, the losing team gets the signing team's first draft pick and a supplemental draft choice.
3) If a Type B player is offered arbitration and signs with a different team, the losing teams gets a supplemental draft choice.
All that said, the Cubs have a Hendry History of avoiding arbitration so what would you do as GM?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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52 comments
Comments
Nitpick
Signing teams don’t give up supplemental picks. The Cubs would just get an extra pick between the first and second round.
by Outshined_One on Aug 25, 2009 2:10 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
edited for accuracy. thx.
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by Gibbon Jockey on Aug 25, 2009 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I assume that they'll offer to Harden and Grabow...
and maybe Johnson. Harden will likely decline, Grabow will likely accept.
I think there will be hesitation on Gregg, as he may accept.
Johnson is an interesting case because he’s expensive for a 1/4 time player (especially with Fuld doing solidly as a defensive sub and spot starter and Fukudome having a strong year). If he’s a Type B, the team may decide not to risk paying $3 million to a backup.
But shaving the salaries of Harden, Gregg and Johnson would free $14 million to help offset salary increases for some of our big contracts next year.
by SouthernCub on Aug 25, 2009 7:12 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd offer to all of them.
Gregg still should be tradeable even if he accepts.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Aug 25, 2009 7:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure Gregg would be tradable at $4-5 million after this year...
that’s a lot of money for a guy who has now been demoted from closer two years running.
by SouthernCub on Aug 25, 2009 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Slight edit...
not sure he’d be tradable without eating salary or taking on another bad contract. Obviously, nearly anyone can be traded at some price.
The only value to offering Gregg is the potential for draft picks. But if he accepts (and I’d be shocked if he didn’t), we don’t get draft picks. Thus, we’re likely to get less in return than the draft picks and/or take on salary to get rid of him.
by SouthernCub on Aug 25, 2009 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, Harden and Grabow
I think they can sign Johnson to a deal for about $1.5 million plus incentives for games played, seeing how he’s been hurt so much this year.
And, to anyone thinking they can’t cut his salary by more than 20%, they can if he becomes a free agent and can negotiate with other teams.
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
by zambranofan on Aug 25, 2009 7:54 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Harden and Grabow
I would love to keep both, even with Hardens history of injury
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Aug 25, 2009 8:02 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Harden could be signed...
… to a deal that has multiple incentives, that would protect the Cubs if he gets hurt again, and reward him if he stays healthy.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Aug 25, 2009 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What would be a good threshold for GS or IP for that deal?
20-25, 150-175?
by chilango2 on Aug 25, 2009 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
problem is
would Harden take an incentive laden deal? It’s hard to predict the market, but right now, it seems possible that he doesn’t have to go for an incentive laden deal. I’d like Harden back, but at the right price.
by toonsterwu on Aug 25, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
According to Cotts
Theriot signed a one year re-up in Feb of 09 for only 500k, so do we need to re-sign him this year, and how much could he ask for?
by JimboJet on Aug 25, 2009 8:52 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Theriot is arb-eligible.
As has been the case with everyone in this Cub era, they won’t go to an arb hearing with him. They’ll settle before it comes to that.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Aug 25, 2009 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
True, but he's been a bargain at $500k, regardless
of whether he’s best suited for 2B or is a serviceable SS.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Aug 25, 2009 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Any chance he will ask for more than we are willing to pay?
by JimboJet on Aug 25, 2009 9:07 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
If you're talking about Theriot, it's irrelevant
Theriot is Cubs property as long as they offer him arbitration. Worst case scenario: they offer, he asks for more, and it goes to arbitration (which is rare if not unprecedented for Hendry) and we sign him that way. But more likely, the two sides come to an agreement before arbitration for another one-year deal like usual.
But there is no threat of losing Theriot to free agency (unless the Cubs don’t tender an offer). He’ll be a Cub, and his salary range is going to be pretty well defined based on experience and performance.
by SouthernCub on Aug 25, 2009 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I had to guess?
The Cubs will offer Harden arbitration, and take the picks. They’ll attempt to trade Grabow and Gregg, and if not, walk away. And Reed Johnson stays if they can agree on some affordable, multi-year deal.
I have this nasty feeling that this will be the lost off-season for the Cubs.
by Damen Jackson on Aug 25, 2009 9:22 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Offer all of them
Grabow accepting would be a good thing IMO. Gregg is tradeable if he accepts, and if not we get some draft picks.
Harden is a no-brainer offer because of the draft picks, and we could spend a whole different fanpost debating about whether the Cubs should sign him or not.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Aug 25, 2009 9:23 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Boy,
I tell you what, I’m just not convinced that Gregg is a tradeable commodity at $5 million plus, or Grabow at over $3 million. Those two will be a very interesting development, indeed.
by Damen Jackson on Aug 25, 2009 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't offer Gregg arb.
Particularly if Marmol shows well at closer the rest of the year, Gregg is worthless to the Cubs. Grabow, however, is useful, I’d keep him.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Aug 25, 2009 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed on Gregg...
You offer him arb, and you’re going to get burned.
The problem with Grabow though isn’t his value, but the cost of it going into next season. If he proves that you can use him confidently against RHs, and that he can keep his WHIP south of 1.50 the rest of the way, then I’d like to see the Cubs work something out with him. But I just don’t want to pay $3 mil plus in this market for the third or fourth guy out of the pen.
by Damen Jackson on Aug 25, 2009 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grabow's the only guy in the pen I trust to be good
Gregg obviously not, Guzman has had issues, Marmol is massively bipolar,
It's shocking what you can miss sometimes. The amazing color changing card trick.
by shake n bake on Aug 25, 2009 7:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why would Gregg be tradable?
This is the same argument made last winter with Howry. Howry wound up signing for $2.75 million. The Cubs could have been burned if they offered him arbitration.
Gregg would be expected to get over $3 million in arbitration. That isn’t necessarily a tradable option. Let him walk.
by rlpete on Aug 25, 2009 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I made that argument with Howry
and how would it have worked out? His HR/9 and ERA are back to 2007 levels. You could argue that if we’d had Howry on a one-year deal, we wouldn’t have traded for Gregg. Or, if his market value was 3 M, we’d only have needed to eat 1 M to trade him. And he always could have mis-read the market and declined arb, just as other players did last year. Never underestimate the desire of a reliever to get as far away from Lou Piniella as possible. Gregg wouldn’t necessarily accept arb, just like Howry wouldn’t have necessarily accepted it.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Aug 25, 2009 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tom Grabow and John Gorzelanny...
Don’t know why I routinely get those mixed up…….
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by Gibbon Jockey on Aug 25, 2009 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My take
I’d offer Harden, and that’s it. I think you run with it and hope that Kosuke can perform at the same level, and have Fuld/Fox as depth OF’s. That saves you 3 million on Reed. I’m not sold Gregg is tradeable without eating money, and I’d let him go as well. I feel fine with Marshall/Gorzelanny fighting for the 5th job/main pen lefty role, with John Gaub getting called up. By letting the other 3 guy, you give yourself some financial flexibility. If Harden accepts, that flexibility is limited, but you get Harden. I just don’t think the other three are critical enough to the 2010 Cubs chances to take up that financial flexibility as of now.
by toonsterwu on Aug 25, 2009 11:02 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
WIth no other LH bullpen guy.............
………….I think you have to offer up to Grabow.
Agree on Harden. He’s only projected to win 11-12 games and his ERA will likely remain above 4. Given those numbers it’s not a serious risk that his arbitration payday will be that large (assuming they don’t cut a deal prior to the hearing).
Johnson would be nice to have back, but not at $3 mil. If you can get him for half that, he might be worth the roster spot.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
by tville on Aug 25, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is there some reason to think...
the Cubs couldn’t find another for less than $3 million, and pocket the change?
by Damen Jackson on Aug 25, 2009 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scott Eyre?
Oh, wait.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Aug 25, 2009 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you are referencing...........
……….Reed Johnson, I agree fully.
Not sure you can get Grabow-esque results for less than $3 mil in today’s market.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
by tville on Aug 25, 2009 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I don't really know what that means...
I’ll try to reserve some judgement until I see how freely teams want to spend cash this off-season, but last go-around, you could find some pretty good everyday players for five million per. Grabow has had a couple of nice outings, but the guy is an career average lefty. Fine if you’re paying a Beimel-like deal; a touch silly at $3 million or better, in my opinion.
Give Gorzelanny a long look, and pocket the difference.
by Damen Jackson on Aug 25, 2009 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you are misreading my take
I’d have two lefties in the pen and two lefties in the rotation. Either Harden accepts arb and we have Gorzelanny/Marshall in the pen, or Harden leaves, we collect two picks, and we go with Gorzelanny or Marshall as the 5th, with the other as one pen arm, and John Gaub being called up for the other role. Gaub has torn through the minors, has excellent LOOGY stuff, and has to be protected this year. As the “2nd” lefty, I don’t have a problem with it.
Btw, I think Harden’s arbitration will be around 10-12 million. On the open market, I’d imagine that’s about the AAV he’d get.
by toonsterwu on Aug 25, 2009 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Understood.
I still like what Grabow has done, and given the relatively small expense involved, I’d say he should be tendered. If nothing else Grabow could be used as a trading chip down the road.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
by tville on Aug 25, 2009 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grabow and arbitration
Based on recent history, it wouldn’t be that surprising to see Grabow get 3.5-4 million. For a budget stretched to the max, I’m just not sure it’s worthwhile to take that gamble. Only time will tell, but I’d feel more than comfortable with Gorzelanny/Marshall/Gaub fighting for the 3 lefty roles next year, with Casey Lambert and maybe Jeremy Papelbon in the mix (if Papelbon is here).
by toonsterwu on Aug 25, 2009 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harden and Grabow only
It’s too risky that Gregg will accept it, and he won’t be easy to move. RJ just doesn’t have a role on the 2010 team unless somehow either Soriano or Bradley gets moved.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Aug 25, 2009 11:06 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Grabow and probably Harden with possible conditions...
if I am the GM I talk to Grabow, Harden and their agents between the end of the season and the deadline for offering arbitration. Give them an idea of what I can give in terms of years, money, incentives. Get an idea of what they want, willing to accept and their desire to stay in Chicago. If the talks are positive then I offer arbittation and work on getting something done before the hearings.
With Gregg I probably don’t offer anything and just say good bye to the picks. It’s not like I could count on the scouting system is going to come up with good advise on players to draft. But, if I decide to offer arbittration, not sure this would be within the rules, I would make sure I see him (Gregg) as a long man/6th inning guy in the bullpen. This should be enough to convince him to turn down the arbitrtion offer and I get to the draft picks to blow next June.
With Johnson…..told everyone I knew that his pickup last year was a good thing when they wondered why the Cubs signed him…..I honestly don’t think he would be worth the amount of money he could get through arbitration as a 4th OF. So sadly I would let him go.
by Rkfd Die Hard on Aug 25, 2009 1:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Just read Olney's guess on Harden
via mlbtr (since espn stuff is protected) and he loosely guesses 20 million on Harden in the market. I’d imagine that he’s suggesting, say, 2 years/20 mil (because 3 years/20 mil sounds a bit low). If that’s the case, I offer arb but try my best to bring him back. It’d take some juggling, but if we clear out Grabow/Gregg/Reed Johnson, that should give us enough flexibility to sign Harden at that price and maybe add a veteran pen arm.
Of course, a long way to go before seeing what the market is actually like.
by toonsterwu on Aug 25, 2009 1:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That sounds much much more realistic
Sullivan’s suggestion that Harden would get 4/$50M-60M shows just how little he understands the market.
by Wreckard on Aug 25, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Show me a GM...
ready to give Rich Harden four years, and I’ll show you one that won’t be lasting the 2010 season.
by Damen Jackson on Aug 25, 2009 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did he really say that?
Wow, that’s ridiculous.
by dakoose on Aug 25, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/chi-25-cubs-chicago-aug25,0,2699865.story
Sullivan is ridiculous.
by Wreckard on Aug 25, 2009 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's like Ben Sheets
All over again. I think he’ll struggle for a 3/36 deal, but I guess time will tell.
by Damen Jackson on Aug 25, 2009 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, $20M per?
When on and healthy, he’s as good as they get, but regardless of my liking Harden, $20M seems big after his last three years.
Doesn’t mean he won’t get it, though.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Aug 25, 2009 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he's saying 2 years/$20 million
Which fits in with what people around here have been tossing around. I think I’d be comfortable with 3 years/$30 million, with the 3rd year binding based on an games started/innings reached vesting option.
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by Trey2317 on Aug 25, 2009 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
3/30 is not too different that the deal speculated for Woody
last offseason. I doubt any front line starting pitcher will settle in this market for $10 per year, regardless of years on the deal.
2/$20m – if that’s what Harden wants, a $2M raise, get him signed now. $20M per year? That’s more the going rate after the signings of Z, CC, Dempster, etc.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Aug 25, 2009 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As long as he's good the rest of the year ...
we should offer Grabow arbitration (or otherwise try to keep him). I think he’s a Cub next year.
Gregg’s gone, and I think Reed Johnson will be, too. He’s too expensive for what the Cubs need him for — especially considering all the money on the books for next year.
I’d try to sign Harden to a three-year extension, with a low base salary in 2010. After next season, the Cubs finally have some money freed up, by way of Lilly and Lee. Unfortunately, those are two of our expensive players I wouldn’t mind keeping, but they’re the only two high-priced players who are free agents after next season.
by elgato on Aug 25, 2009 2:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd only offer Harden arbitration.
I don’t want Gregg back, in any capacity. Next year the rotation will look like Zambrano-Lilly-Dempster-Wells-Harden.
I trust Guzman and Marmol at the back end of the rotation, so a third reliever should cost less than the 4.2 Gregg will get. Hopefully Samardzija or one the kids we got from the DeRosa deal will be ready for sixth or seventh inning relief next year. Marshall and Gorzelanny can be the primary lefties, allowing Grabow to leave, or come back for less than his 2+. Fuld can be the next Reed Johnson, and may be even better, as he’d be a better base-running replacement late in games.
by dakoose on Aug 25, 2009 2:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree with those
who say offer Harden and Grabow arb and let Gregg and Johnson walk. Harden is a unique talent who’s only failing is he can’t stay healthy. That’s exactly the type of guy you want on a one year arbitration deal. And if someone is willing to give him a long-term contract, then great, we get two draft picks.
It’s similar with Grabow—he’s a solid left-handed reliever and even in arb, he’s not going to that much money. Having someone else sign him for two draft picks is even better.
Gregg and Johnson can both be replaced with cheaper guys, either from our farm system or FA cut loose from other organizations.
by Josh77 on Aug 25, 2009 3:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Grabow and Harden only
I can live w/o the rest. Harden will reject the Cubs offer, so we should be okay w/some picks. Grabow will take. Don’t even waste time w/Gregg. It will only prevent the Cubs from preparing for next year. Johnson probably will be priced out of town, and he gives us nothing Fuld doesn’t as a reserve outfielder.
by Nibbles on Aug 25, 2009 8:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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