Why the Booing Has to Stop
This is just the latest in a long line of events that have made me angrier and angrier with the unruly mob that is Cubs fans:
``It's never comfortable,'' he said after going 4 for 4 with a homer in Tuesday's 15-6 loss. ``It's hard to be comfortable when you don't get a hit and get booed every time. When I go home and look in the mirror, I like what I see. My family's there. I have people I can talk to who are very supportive in spite of everything and all the adversity and hatred you face on a daily basis. But I'll be all right. I always have.''
I realize not all Cubs fans act this way (most probably do not), but enough of them do. Bottom line: if you're a Cubs fan and you boo players you're hurting the team. If you're a Cubs fan that watches other fans boo players without saying anything about it, you too are hurting the team. I've been silent long enough and have finally decided to speak up on this issue in this public forum. Last warning: rant against Chicago Cubs fans imminent...
I've had something on my chest for a long time, and after reading this I have to get it out there: I hate the way Cubs fans treat their players. In particular, I hate the booing they receive on a regular basis as I consider booing of the home team to be one of the most selfish, arrogant, megolmaniacal, and destructive acts a fanbase can participate in. There is almost no good that can come of it; the most likely tangible outcomes that can come of it are things like this event, where one of the more talented players on the team feels uncofmfortable in their own ballpark... and for what? A slump that lasted a few months? Congratulations, those that boo or think that it is acceptable! You're succeeding in driving one of the most talented players in town right back out of it. Enjoy watching Sam Fuld in right field. Wait... let me put that another way you'll probably understand better: enjoy the "lovable losers" that will go something like 80-84 every year.Unfortunately, this is far from an isolated event. Milton Bradley, LaTroy Hawkins, Corey Patterson, Neifi Perez, and Jacque Jones have all been booed mercilessly. And if Milton Bradley is traded away, I have no doubts that the mob will pick a new player to boo next season (likely Soriano). I take pride in the "home atmosphere" Cubs fans create for the team when it travels on the road, so it pains me greatly when I see that for certain players many fans create an "away" atmosphere when the team plays at home.
Here are 10 commonly stated reasons for booing a player, along with my counter-arguments that they do not justify booing:
1.) It's their job.
No, it isn't. Their job is to play baseball games. Booing is only something that people with these jobs deal with because there are morons out there that think booing them is somehow productive, right, or entertaining. This argument represents very poor logic by the booing crowd: boo players -----> see argument against booing -----> claim everyone gets booed (because you booed them), and that it's a part of their jobs!
2.) I paid $XX dollars for my ticket! I have the right to voice my displeasure!
Yes, you do. I also have the right to walk into a public square and yell "I'm a moron!" at the top of my lungs. I can also do so with a bunch of friends just to make sure my point is made. That doesn't help anyone, nor is it smart.... but I have the right to do it. Having the right to do something is not a reason to do it.
3.) I'm telling management how I feel.
Be honest. No, you're not. If that were the case the obscenities we've heard shouted at players by their own would not be so personal. Booing is inherently an emotional release, not a logical call for a different course of action. And even if you boo for different reasons, you are in the minority here and are only helping to support the din of those that boo players directly.
4.) They're making $eleventy-billion!!!! They can deal!
This argument is so absurd I doubt it should even have to be countered... but since people make it all the time I suppose I must. If you want to boo somebody because they don't make a lot of (perhaps too much) money, go to your nearest corporate headquarters and ask to speak to the CEO. Or just hang out. The amount of money one makes has nothing to do with whether or not they should be booed, and it has nothing to do with whether booing them is acceptable. It isn't, regardless of someone's salary. The two things have nothing to do with each other. The only way in which they're related is that you are jealous that they get paid a lot of money to play a game. And in that case, you're just booing because you're a petty individual. That's your fault, not theirs.
5.) They have to know when they mess up!
Are you kidding me? Do you think someone that is talented enough to get to the major leagues and has had a myriad of different coaches explain the nuances of the sport to them doesn't know when they messed up? Do you think Milton Bradley doesn't know he screwed up when he threw the ball into the stands? Do you think Corey Patterson thought it was productive for him to strike out at pitches thrown at head level? Do you think LaTroy Hawkins would have been a better closer if only he knew that blowing saves was a bad thing? If you answered yes to any of these questions, you're a fool.
6.) They must try harder!
While I agree that there's something romantic about the guy that sprints as hard as he can to first on every routine ground ball, there's also something silly about it. What if a star player gets hurt trying to leg out that single? Oh, wait... That happened. At least twice. What if one hurts himself crashing into the wall? Should he try to play through the pain and "tough" it out? If he does, will you boo him when his season is horribly short of expectations? Tell that to Alfonso Soriano. Let me be clear here: yes, players should hustle. But when you boo a player for not hustling, you are making a number of assumptions, any of which could be wrong. First, the player may be nursing an injury that while doesn't make them worse than the backup demands caution on the basepaths or in the field. Second, you assume that your booing will let them know that they weren't hustling. Most of the players know this themselves 99.99% of the time without your inputs, and even if they stop hustling because of a mental lapse (as opposed to an injury) they realize their mistake immediately. They also have managers and coaches that know the injury concerns of these players, and that know a lot more about baseball than you or I do. Let them handle it.
7.) But Jimmy "go-go" Ballplayer said it was O.K.!
So what? One player not caring about or being affected by booing does not make it O.K. or acceptable to boo all players. If Jimmy thinks it helps him, then fine. Boo Jimmy. But everyone's mental makeup is different and that doesn't mean it will help or be ignored by most players.
8.) But they're the enemy! We're supposed to make them feel bad!
Don't get me wrong here. Boo opponents all you want. Boo umps too, when they blow the call. That's part of a team's home field advantage. I just don't see the point in booing your own team.
9.) But they have to deal with it on the road!
Yes, they do. That doesn't mean it helps them to hear it at home, too. I you feel booing the opponents will help your team's chances of winning a game then by logical extension booing the home team will hurt your team's chances of winning.
10.) It makes me feel better.
This is the one I won't argue with. If booing makes you feel better, fine. If it's the emotional release you need for a player or a team or a life that has disappointed you, fine. If you enjoy being the center of attention for it, fine. If it makes you feel justified because they're making more than you even though you work so darn hard, fine. I just hope you realize that you do these things at the following costs: adding unneeded pressure to a franchise and players that have enough pressure (100 years worth) without your contributions, making the Cubs a less attractive free agent destination -- particularly for African American players as they have been more often than not the target of booing, making you and your allies look like complete morons, and turning one of the best, most loyal fan bases in the world into a disadvantage. So if it makes you feel better, I won't argue that isn't true. That's for you to decide. But I will tell you that you're an arrogant, selfish, megalomaniac for thinking that makes it a justifiable course of action.
Like I said earlier, I know this doesn't apply to everyone, but it does apply to enough. There is very little good that can come of it but a whole lot of bad that can come of it. I believe that if a "curse" exists in Wrigley Field it is solely from the pressure the fan base puts on the players; it certainly has nothing to do with some long-dead goat that has nothing to do with the physical or mental performances of today's teams. In other words, I consider you (the "boo-ers") to be the most logical explanation for a curse (if one exists). Even if the chances are small that you are having an effect on the players and even if the size of the effect is small... it needs to stop. Your selfish acts are hurting the team I've loved all my life, and I'm pissed at you for it. If I were one to boo people, I'd boo you. Stop it.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
21 recs |
517 comments
Comments
I'm not going to be around for long...
I finished a huge project at work yesterday, and am heading out for a hike on Whidbey Island and then to SafeCo for a Mariners game. The fans are pretty good there…
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 10:41 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The Puget Sound in the summertime is unmatched - enjoy your hike.
I appreciate your post immensely. I put a fanshot up about this link, but before this was thinking of posting a much less productive fanpost reminding the defeatist and negative members of the community to take a good look in the mirror before blaming the team for the problems – but that would have been akin to saying “BOOOOOOOOOOO” to the BOOers. Your post was much more effectively argued and much less hypocritical than mine would have been.
by DisCUBbobulated on Aug 26, 2009 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've always believed
that you should NEVER boo your home team’s players. It just doesn’t make any sense. Plus, I honestly don’t know what good could possibly come of it. We’re supposed to support them. That goes for all sports, not just baseball. We’re not in Philly.
Great post. 100% agree.
by AGC on Aug 26, 2009 10:53 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Aug 26, 2009 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, we're not in Philly
If we were, we’d be thinking about two straight World Series titles.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said.
I absolutely hate booing.
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
by sue369 on Aug 26, 2009 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everything that once made the Cubs fans charming is now gone.
Cubs fans used to be considered among the best, most supportive fans in baseball. They’d still come out to the stadium and love their losers in blue, support them through the best and worst of times, even though those times were more often than not the worst. Despite all the futility the fans would still come out and cheer their team on.
Maybe it’s just an issue of shifting demographics, or changing expectations, but all of that is gone now. Just as the cheap, blue-collar charm of the bleachers has been slowly replaced by a corporate-sponsored, high priced Chad and Tracy frat fest, so has the supportive charm of the Cubs fan base been usurped by a spiteful, vile fanbase so bad that they make the Phillies fans look good.
Somewhere between the beer-throwing, the racist taunts, the booing, and the personal attacks on players there are good Cubs fans out there. But the idea that Cubs fans are this charming nation of supportive, patient fans always willing to wait ’til next year is long, long gone.
by Wreckard on Aug 26, 2009 10:56 AM CDT reply actions 14 recs
Indeed!
And when Al and I got into an argument about my statement that the “bleachers were out of control” I was talking about more than an isolated incident where beer was thrown on an opposing player. I was talking about a culture shift that has occurred in the bleachers over the last decade or so.
I’ll fully admit that Al is a better judge of these changes as he’s been to most of the games in this time. Al, if you’re around… do you think the culture in the bleachers and in Wrigley has changed since the team started winning?
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think expectations are higher
and thus, the frustrations are greater. Not just at the ballpark, but here too.
I’ve got a fanpost percolating. We’ll see what I write. :D
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 26, 2009 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
there are also a lot more
“frat boys” so to speak that over indulde in alcohol and get “whiskey balls”
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Aug 26, 2009 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The culture of Cub fans in general has changed since the team started winning.
It stems, I think, from the failure of 2003 when we were so close to a WS. Then the two postseason teams the last two years were miserable failures.
I disagree with your premise, however. The players bask in the adulation of cheering for great play. Booing is simply the opposite. I think, however, that booing should not be done simply for failure, because failure happens all the time among professional athletes.
Booing should be reserved, in my opinion, for lack of effort. Among the players you mentioned in your original post, only Corey Patterson deserved that, and only at times.
With that, I will bow out of this discussion, because it obviously enflames tensions.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Aug 26, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Thank you, Wreckard. I’ve felt the same for the past few years.
Numbers may not lie, but they don’t tell the whole truth (and nothing but the truth), either. -- Doug Glanville
by leothelip on Aug 26, 2009 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the downside to rising expectations
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 29, 2009 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
rec'd
well said
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Aug 26, 2009 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blame 2003.
We got a taste.
But I’d also argue the “beer-throwing, racist taunt, booing, personal attacks” are nothing new. It’s just more publicized now for various reasons: more media in general, more coverage of the Cubs since they’re supposed to be a good team, etc.
by Arbusto on Aug 26, 2009 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I live near Philly these days, and it is as if
The fans have swapped places. I remember how Andre Dawson was treated like a god among men (and other Cubs), back when Mike Schmidt would get booed in Philly for striking out twice in a row (while hitting 50 home runs in the season). I don’t see a lot of that anymore in Philly. Even before the Phillies won the WS, people seemed to enjoy watching the team.
On the other hand, the Phillies have not spent mega-bucks on players and looked farther and farther from a championship. I think this has something to do with it. People expected better of the Cubs, and are now possibly seeing the whole big-money attempt fizzle out. The booing should stop, but it is damn frustrating watching the Cubs fail.
by cubmudgeon on Aug 26, 2009 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you are on to something
The core team for Philly is Howard, Utley, Rollins, and Hamels. All 4 are home-grown players that the team did not go out and spend mega-bucks on. When teams spend millions upon millions expectations get raised to a high-level.
The Cubs failure to develop home-grown Cy Young pitching and MVP hitters over the last 30 years has caused the loose spending of Hendry.
by socalbob on Aug 26, 2009 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, how about Wood, Prior, and Zambrano?
Lousy luck with injuries on the first two (and possibly the third)
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 26, 2009 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
sure, I'd give ya that
there is a bit of a better track record with pitching, but absolutely no offense to speak about.
And I wasn’t referring to 1 or 2 hit wonders, but true proven guys. Wood was never Cy Young material over a full season. The Employee, well no need to beat that dead horse. And Z, he will never sniff a Cy Young. So all 3 had very good stretches, they failed the test of time.
by socalbob on Aug 26, 2009 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just talking about talent here, not outcomes
Z threw a no-hitter and put up several great seasons (esp 2005), Wood pitched one of the greatest, if not THE greatest games in MLB history, and Prior was an absolute beast before a bunch of freak injuries/ resulting mechanics changes derailed him
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 26, 2009 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
agree with ya
I’m talking a long-term Cy candidate—Maddux comes to mind.
We are talking to separate things here are you reference small instances. The 3 all have shown flashes of being the best.
by socalbob on Aug 26, 2009 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Er?
Didn’t the Cubs develop Greg Maddux, too? They do have some success developing pitchers with their farm systems. Position players, not much.
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
by vonde6 on Aug 26, 2009 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
did you even read what I have written above?
Apparently not.
by socalbob on Aug 28, 2009 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One difference is...
…Howard, Utley and Rollins step on the field everyday, and the pitchers every 5th day.
Not saying pitching isn’t important, but you have to mix in some everyday players every once in a while.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Aug 26, 2009 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you are WAAAAYYYY off base (like Ronny Cedeno)
First off, I was at Tuesday nights game and I do consider my self a “good” Cubs fan and I did boo after that horrific 5th inning b/c…..wait for it, wait for it…….IT WAS BAD BASEBALL!!!! No one was booing a single player, specific play or pitch. They were booing a horrible defensive and pitching effort for that inning. This is why the Cubs have had a stygma about them for so long as the “Lovable Losers” which makes me absolutely sick. Because the fans haven’t had the guts to step up and expect a certain level of play on the field and this team who was supposed to contend is not cutting it. So please don’t get upset that fans are actually tring to break the mold and expect winning instead of just being ok with losing. Grow Up, this isn’t the Little League World Series where everyone is getting orangle slices and pats-on-the backs.
"Career highlights? I had two. I got an intentional walk from Sandy Koufax and I got out of a rundown against the Mets." Bob Uecker
by mmaxon on Aug 27, 2009 8:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grow Up, this isn’t the Little League World Series where everyone is getting orangle slices and pats-on-the backs.
Good sportsmanship is immature now? Once we’re adults it’s ok to be poor sports and act like jerks?
Just trying to get it straight – I genuinely appreciate you helping me self-actualize into a mature adult like yourself.
by Wreckard on Aug 27, 2009 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I'm not saying to act like a poor sport.
If I was a poor sport, I’d be all upset with the Nationals and they would be my focus, but its not. I never said you were immature or that not booing is immature, just that you need to diferentiate between Little League baseball and the MLB. These people are being paid millions of the fans money to play a game and we get this product? Bottom line, it’s a business and the Cubs have been great for years at the business of makin’ money without being accountable to the fans for putting a crappy product on the field. I’m not saying I boo b/c I don’t like a player, I do it when the situation is warranted. And bad baseball and horrible effort is a perfectly good reason in my mind. And please don’t confuse this with me saying its ok to yell obscene things at players or umpires which is acting like a jerk. Someone booing b/c the team is booting the ball everywhere on a consistant basis is not. My whole point is that Cubs fans need to expect a little more from this franchise especially when the company line is that, “We are going to do everything we can to win the World Series.”
"Career highlights? I had two. I got an intentional walk from Sandy Koufax and I got out of a rundown against the Mets." Bob Uecker
by mmaxon on Aug 27, 2009 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amen brother!!
Going back to a recent post, Andre Dawson was “treated like a God among men,” because he gave 125% effort every time he could, that is when the knees weren’t bugging the crap out of him. Now, we’re left watching “great” players playing Hopscotch when they’re trying to catch a fly ball; star outfielders tossing a ball into the bleachers after the second out; and a Rookie of the Year catcher who couldn’t have fallen farther if he’d jumped off the Sears or Willis Tower, whatever it’s called today. That’s what endears players like Sam Fuld to fans — they go all out. If Fonzie and Milt would do this, they would hear FAR less boos. Instead, it seems that once they have a good game or two, they want to take the next week off.
by Dawson4HOF on Aug 29, 2009 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Try this on for size...
Alsonso Soriano should be "treated like a God among men," because he gives 125% effort every time he can, that is when the knees aren’t bugging the crap out of him.
That sentence works, too.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
At the same time...
… when Dawson couldn’t play because of his knees, he went on the DL and got the problem fixed. When he returned, he played better.
That’s what should have been done with Soriano in May.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Aug 30, 2009 7:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its not that simple, Al
You must not have bad knees, because you don’t understand the analog nature of this. Andre Dawson had bad knees that could not be fixed, and some days were worse than others. I doubt that it was as cut-and-dried for Soriano, either.
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
by vonde6 on Sep 10, 2009 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I don’t like booing your own team, but it does not affect the outcome. Philly is considered the ultimate in booing their own, yet they won it all last year. St.L. & Yankee fans, used to only the best, boo quite frequently when they don’t like what they see on the field. A-Rod, & Isringhausen come immediatley to mind. Personal attacks, however are another animal. That should NEVER be tolerated.
"It's a funny old world. Man's lucky if he gets out of it alive." W.C. Fields
by KedzieKid on Aug 26, 2009 11:01 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
To be clear:
I honestly don’t think it affects things that much. However, I do think that if it does have an effect it is negative. I also truly believe that of all the “immeasurable” effects we hear non-stats people argue about this is one of the largest. There is a distinct advantage to playing on one’s home field, and I think that has to be at least in part due to the treatment the two teams get from the fan base. When you start treating the home team like the away team at least part of that advantage will diminish.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's certainly going to affect our ability to get free agents going forward.
Fair or not, after Milton, Latroy, Jacques, etc. I think a lot of African-American free agents would think twice before coming here. Torii Hunter indicated that he wouldn’t after seeing two of his friends come here and get racial taunts directed at them.
by Wreckard on Aug 26, 2009 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
And if we would have thrown the bank at Hunter
he’d have been here with earplugs in.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree.
Hunter had plenty of good offers to mull over. Given the choice between playing in a hostile environment and a good one with good fans, who’d be willing to play in the hostile environment for 10-20% more money?
by Wreckard on Aug 26, 2009 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly
this year has given me pause about a few things with this fanbase. Every year the MSM and the fans try and tear down our good players. Just a few years ago a lot of people around here were calling for Aramis Ramirez to be traded for being a “lazy dog”. Now he is suddenly a team leader and good guy. All that really changed is that the fans hate Bradley or Zambrano or Soriano or anybody with actual talent. If people think that a large paycheck should make a perfect player then they are beyond help.
It’s almost to the point where I wish the Cubs would dump all their talented players and run out a lineup chock full of Sam Fuld’s and Koyie Hills for an entire year. See just how much those “things that cant be measured on a stat sheet” matter in the W/L column.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 11:02 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
A lineup full of Sam Fuld's and Koyie Hill's
would be quite horrible. I’m guessing this everyday lineup:
Fuld, RF
Theriot, SS
Lee, 1B
Ramirez, 3B
Fox, LF
Johnson/Kukudome, CF
Baker, 2B
Hill, C
… would struggle to win 80 games.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
but
Dave Kaplan would approve! Apparently so would a large chunk of BCB and Cubs fans in general.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so what? It still is a lousy lineup
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Aug 29, 2009 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
… would struggle to win 60 games.
Fixed
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 26, 2009 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Fuld should get some more playing time
to see if he can in fact be a 4th/5th outfielder but there is NO reason not to play Soto & Bradley in the
majority of games. I do think Soriano might be done for THIS year due to lingering injury. Fox will need to get more starts to again judge what rold he plays in the future.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Aug 26, 2009 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i hate the booing against soriano and, especially, milton
and i spoke up about in the bleachers at the july 4 game. i was, of course, met with derision regarding their salaries and that they “suck”.
Cubs will win 79 to 83 games. Season has been over for weeks. St. Louis will eventually run away with this division. And you can print it. BLou (7/21/09)
This season has long been over. krummy12 (6/30/09)
by joeschmitt on Aug 26, 2009 11:11 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Wrigley
maybe the kind of people that go to games has changed. Because the atmosphere at the park and the kind of douchebags I have sat with at games in the last few years leads me to believe that the old kind of Cub fan who was always supportive is gone and been replaced by a much younger, angrier and less informed crowd.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The kind of people has changed
AS ticket prices keep going up, families cant afford to take the whole family to games. The people that can afford it are the frat boys whose parents pay for everything in their life so what money they make at a “job” they can spend on getting sloshed on $6 beers at wrigley
Tweeting about the Cubs most of the time from @jmkobus
by jkobus on Aug 26, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not just people with parents that pay for tix...
it’s also those who are young and have a lot of disposable income. That doesn’t make it any better, but we should be aware of who it is we’re criticizing and not paint with too broad a brush.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
I just see some absolute tools when I am in the bleachers. They come to drink the beer and get drunk instead of enjoy the game
Tweeting about the Cubs most of the time from @jmkobus
by jkobus on Aug 26, 2009 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's also not to say..
that the others i’m talking about aren’t tools. Many of them are. I didn’t mean to disagree with what you said. Just wanted to point out it was more than the “frat crowd” causing problems.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lets not forget
Wrigley was built in a time when you had to own up to your actions… As much fun as it is, not having a bit more buffer between the players and fans esp. the bullpen is just an invite to trouble and a diservice to the players. ?.
There goes one over the fence...a Tru-Link fence.
by truelinkfence on Aug 26, 2009 11:12 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I dont think
the problem is the stadium. The problem is US as fans
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
That the issue is fan based. IMO Most stadiums today have built barriers in knowing it can not be fixed. Including loud jombotrons and the like. Blech!
There goes one over the fence...a Tru-Link fence.
by truelinkfence on Aug 26, 2009 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just to clarify
I am not relating my comments to booing. But to personal and direct exchanges between players and fans.
There goes one over the fence...a Tru-Link fence.
by truelinkfence on Aug 26, 2009 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Still not sure.
Take a look at PNC park. It’s one of the best parks in the majors, IMO. Part of the reason for that is it is small, but intimate. The fan base is right on top of the players, especially in the LF bleachers. If the fans there (if they had them… zing!) were as unruly as Cubs fans it would be brutal.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess the Phillies and Yankees' success
over the years is just a gosh-darn miracle, what with all the evil fans booing.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where exactly does he say that?
Shawn says the exact opposite earlier in the thread.
If you’re going to make up people’s arguments you should at least use ones that they don’t contradict about 6 inches above yours.
by Wreckard on Aug 26, 2009 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, he contradicts himself
He goes on a 10-point manifesto about how booing is bad, but then says it doesn’t have much effect.
So, pretty much a waste of time.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
reading comprehension fail.
I’ve held the whole time that it doesn’t have a huge effect. It has a small effect that is probably more bad than good. But if it’s more likely to do bad than good, why do it?
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fans have very little impact one way or the other
The Marlins and Braves had tepid fan support at best and have had more success.
The Dodgers and Angels (even the Padres won a pennant a decade ago) have lukewarm, fickle and not very knowledgable support, and have had more success.
Houston, a football town in a football state, has had more success. Toronto and Minneapolis, where hockey is king, have had more success.
And Philly, both New York teams and Boston, where expectations are higher and fans are far less patient, has had more success.
I get that booing offends you. That’s fair enough.
But even the small amount of worry you are putting on this is too much.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait a second...
Houston has had more success than the Cubs? How? Toronto? Minneapolis? These teams haven’t performed nearly as well as the Cubs this decade.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Houston has won an NL pennant
And consistently contended in the late 90s/early 00s
Toronto and Minnesota have two WS titles each and Minnesota has recently contended.
In the last 20 years, the Cubs have won four divisions and a wild-card and only made it out of the first round of the playoffs once.
In that time, every team I mentioned – except the Dodgers, who won the World Series the year before — have made it to at least one World Series.
I would consider that more successful.
And the Cubs’ recent run of success — two straight division titles — comes AFTER Jones, Patterson and Hawkins were booed out of town.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jones, Patterson, and Hawkins would have been gone anyhow.
Management didn’t need us booing those guys to know they weren’t playing well!
by Pat19 on Aug 26, 2009 8:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since Hendry took over as GM...
…The Cubs are third in their division in wins despite outspending everybody (in some years by a wide margin).
The Stros have won the pennant, won more games than the Cubs and have made the playoffs twice, while winning 3 playoff series. If you go back a few years earlier, the Stros record of success is much better than the Cubs.
The Cards have won more games than the Cubs, have won the WS, been to the playoffs 3 times and have won 6 playoffs series.
The ROI has not been there for the Cubs, and the blemishes caused by no young position player talent, poor roster construction etc., are rearing it’s ugly head.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Aug 26, 2009 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand the problem with booing
Bottom line, expectations are high, as is the frustration level. It’s the fan’s choice — that, or stay home.
I just don’t like scapgoating any individual player.
Make it a ‘team’ boo.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Aug 26, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boos have been pointedly directed at Bradley, Zambrano and Soriano in a disproportionate amount.
Does that make it a problem for you since you think it should be a team boo? I’m wondering if you would be okay with people coming to your workplace and loudly booing you when they don’t care for your performance? How would you like your boss to boo and berate you in front of your co-workers? Do you think it might affect your performance for the worse?
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Aug 26, 2009 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not the starting LF for the Chicago Cubs.
When you are a pro athlete, that goes with the territory. There are financial compensations that should ease the pain
And, I have taken both criticism and praise for my work in my selected profession.
I wish I had the same financial compensation. Anybody could say whatever they want to, it can be easily ignored.
If you were not here a few years ago, I was flamed for taking out my frustration from the second row behind the plate during another bad season. I don’t have time to find the post, but look for Freddie Bynum if you care to search.
This thread is playing out the same way.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Aug 26, 2009 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not a matter of money it's a matter of respecting your fellow man.
Well, if you chose to single out Freddie Bynum and somehow unleash you frustration with the Cubs on him then that seems beyond ridiculous. Really, Freddie Bynum? I don’t think he probably was paid enough to have to put up with that kind of nonsense. What is the amount of income that determines a guy deserves to get undue vitriol? Is it league minimum?
You may justify disrespect other human beings because of how much money they make but they still deserve to be treated with respect. It’s not really about money you either respect other people or you don’t.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Aug 26, 2009 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah really
what kind of guy screams at a player making league minimum because he isn’t very talented? Is that Freddie effin’ Bynum’s fault? Do you realize how rude that is in the real world? Why then do you feel it acceptable to do that to somebody simply because you are in a ballpark?
The real bum is people like you SDSJM who feel entitled to act like a punk because you paid 30 bucks for a seat in a stadium.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I went back and read that
And if you replace 2009 and Miles with 2006 and Bynum. . . .groupthink hatred, as Rynot said.
No offense to you, SDSJM, but the way it reads, you both were in the wrong on this one. Yeah, Bynum should have ignored you, but he’s human.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 26, 2009 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
plus
ITS FREDDIE FREAKIN BYNUM!
I HATE when fans boo Soriano but I can understand that frustration a helluva lot more than getting after a player like Bynum. What is booing this guy suddenly going to make him more talented at baseball?
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So....
It’s not OK for me to insult FB, but you can insult me.
I really don’t care what you say, but you’ve just done the same thing you are calling me out on.
The irony.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Aug 26, 2009 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well there's a big difference
Freddie Bynum has failed to produce on a baseball field.
You meanwhile failed to show another human being a basic amount of respect, something that you were apparently so proud of that you bring it up years later.
by Wreckard on Aug 26, 2009 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
because Bynum didn’t do anything wrong and you did.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am sorry
that I offended such defenders of public decency.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Aug 26, 2009 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, if a player does something wrong, then it's okay to boo?
Who gets to judge if it was wrong?
You obviously get to judge SDSJM, so what makes you any more qualified to judge him for doing something wrong than he is for booing when Bynum fails to reach base or move a runner over, making an unproductive out, which is, by definition a failure at the plate and therefore wrong?
You’re logic isn’t very sound.
BOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by ScottT on Aug 26, 2009 6:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Try this.
MLB teams’ collective home record is 1029-848 this season. How do you explain that, if not for the influence of fans on players and umpires?
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe it is simply...
…comfort. Players are usually more comfortable playing at home vs the road.
The pitchers get used to the home mound (it does make a difference) and the hitters eye has adjusted to the hitting background in their own park.
Sure, the energy the crowd provides makes some difference, but I don’t believe the umps play any role. In other sports the officiating is a factor, but not baseball.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Aug 26, 2009 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So would being booed by your own fans make a player more or less comfortable?
If you believe a player’s comfort level comes into play then would fans be increasing or decreasing his comfort when they boo him? Since you believe comfort is a factor then you must in turn believe booing reduces comfort and the chances of doing well at home.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Aug 26, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
For most players...
…being booed would not be a good thing, and would probably cause them to press.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Aug 26, 2009 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Home field advantage
I agree with most of what you said above, but I don’t agree that the influence of fans on players or umpires(!) results in more home wins. Three more likely causes are:
1) Fatigue from travel
2) Rosters reflect the characteristics of the home park
3) Familiarity with park by home team (defense, pitching strategy, etc.)
by cliff on Aug 26, 2009 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
worf takes
everything personally. and he is VERY insecure about himself so arguing with him is a bit hard
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't place the majority of failures at the feet of the fans.
I also believe that the fan base is, on balance, beneficial to the team.
However I believe the booing in particular hurts more than it helps, and it should stop.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We're talking about a few different things here
I think you CAN say that racist taunts, personal attacks, attacks on the family, etc… are out-of-bounds and still find booing acceptable.
You could make a case that racist taunts are simply booing in an extreme (or fueled by alcohol) and that any booing, derision, etc… is a slippery slope. Fair enough.
Let us also say that the Yankees, Phillies, Red Sox, Mets, among others, have endured as bad or worse treatment from fans over the years and have quite a bit more success on the field.
I also think fans have every right to express frustration. I don’t know what you advocate fans doing or saying when the team fails to get a run in after having the bases loaded and no outs, but I think booing is acceptable there. Same with a pitcher having a hitter on an 0-2 count and then hitting him.
Or maybe we should all say, “Jeez!” like Santo.
Like anything else in life, there are no real set rules. We know it when we see it. Booing Bradley when he threw the ball in the stands? Yeah, I’m OK with it.
Booing Bradley when he goes 3-3 and strikes out in the 4th AB? Yeah, that is stupid.
I personally try only to boo stupidity and lollygagging. Sorry I can’t give you a stat for it.
I do take exception to Point 5.
5.) They have to know when they mess up!
Are you kidding me? Do you think someone that is talented enough to get to the major leagues and has had a myriad of different coaches explain the nuances of the sport to them doesn’t know when they messed up?
By that logic, why cheer? After all, Derrek Lee KNOWS he just hit a home run. Randy Wells KNOWS he just strike out the batter with a man on third. Sam Fuld KNOWS he just made a fantastic catch.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 11:14 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
so by your
logic you only cheer because you really believe you are the first to inform them of their good deed?
Cheer good plays because they help the team. Booing your own players hurts the team. Its simple.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, that's NOT my logic
That’s the logic of point 5.
Booing isn’t done to be informative. I’m sure players know very well when they succeed and fail.
There is no evidence that cheering helps or booing hurts. The best players tune all of us out anyway.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really? They tune us all out?
They may say that they do, but I doubt it.
Do you really think athletes do not get a “home field” advantage from the crowd? Is it all from sleeping at home with their families. That may be a huge part of it, but so is the fan base.
It’s a different sport, but watch a Penn State football game at Beaver Stadium… or a Duke basketball game. Or pretty much any soccer match in another country. Fans matter.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually there is
Milton Bradley your starting RF is admitting it weighs on him.
JJ our former RF admitted it bothered him. Tori Hunter a great CF said he wouldn’t play for the Cubs because of the behavior of people in the stadium.
Forgetting for a moment the obvious racial overtones of all this there are several examples of how this new attitude at Wrigley is hurting the franchise.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is a difference between racial taunts and booing
I said that from the beginning.
Racial taunts ARE unacceptable.
I’m sure you guys just cheered and skipped and danced and said, “Welp, get them next time” whenever they leave the bases loaded, or when Jones threw the ball into the ground, or Patterson swung at pitches six feet over his head.
Or you just polished your halos. The rest of us on Planet Earth got a little frustrated.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hell yeah
i get frustrated. I was frustrated enough yesterday to turn off the game. That doesnt mean I hated Zambrano or wanted to start yelling BOOOOO at my screen.
Nobody is out there not trying to perform, so what exactly am I gaining by acting like that other than making our own players feel unwanted by their hometown fans?
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, so the in-stadium equivalent of that
would be getting up and leaving, right?
You think THAT would be helpful?
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, it would be helpful.
If you really don’t like the team, don’t go to the games. That would send a more effective signal to management that you don’t approve of the on-field product than booing will.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And you don't think the players would
notice that and get discouraged? You don’t think your empty seat would eventually be replaced by a fan of the opponent? That can’t help, can it?
I get it. In your perfect world, we treat MLB like we treat Little League. It’s a nice idea, but not realistic at all.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
no in the real
world we act like adults even at the ballpark. You don’t boo people who do other things that displease you do you? So what about paying for a ticket gives you the right to act like a child?
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you attend a rock concert
and the band stinks, you boo.
If you attend a comedy club and the comedian stinks, you heckle.
You also have the right to complain to customer service if you get bad service at a store or another business.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no
YOU do that kind of shit. Not me.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh-huh
Liar.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i know it may
be hard to believe but not everybody is a knuckle dragger like you who take out life’s frustrations on others.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Really?
You actually do that? Here’s the thing: your ticket to a comedy show doesn’t guarantee a funny show. It guarantees that a comedian will be performing on-stage. You know that he might bomb when you buy the ticket. That’s part of the deal. If you don’t understand that, the fault is entirely yours. It’s analogous to going to a baseball game and expecting a perfect performance every time despite the regular failure that’s just a part of the sport.
Oh, and customer service? If you’re at, say, a restaurant, then yes, complain. That’s because you pay for the service. It’s part of the deal.
There’s a pretty clear difference here.
by patches on Aug 26, 2009 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is...
where do you draw the line.
Is it OK to call a player a bum? Overpaid? Worthless? Lazy? Selfish? Racist epithats? For me, the line is easily defined: don’t boo.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, it's OK to boo Kevin Gregg
and not Milton Bradley? Is that what I’m hearing in this thread?
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Aug 26, 2009 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You cheer for a bunch of reasons!
1.) It feel great, especially when there’s just cause… iike a home run from your favorite team!
2.) It doesn’t hurt anyone! Bonus!
3.) If anything, it makes the team you’re cheering for feel appreciated. Hopefully, that will help them perform better.
4.) Watch a football game at Beaver Stadium. If you don’t think cheering affects the outcome of a game by the end of it you weren’t paying attention.
I could go on and on and on but there are lots of reasons to cheer that have nothing to do with informing the player they did a good job. They know it, but it’s nice to hear it sometimes. I know when I do good, but it’s nice to hear someone say it. I also know when I mess up, and depending on who is doing the reminding me of it may or may not appreciate it.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 11:20 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No offense...
But if I pay my ticket to the game and am displeased with the effort and play, it’s within my right to boo. And if you approached me during a game and demanded I stop, I’d laugh in your face.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Aug 26, 2009 11:25 AM CDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
well then
you are a shitty fan. congrats on that.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So enlighten us, Oh Great One
What do you do whenever they have a man on third and one out and proceed to strike out twice?
What do you say and do so we know exactly how to act?
You must edumacate us unwashed masses.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i bitch about it
to myself and hope they do better next time.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Each and every time?
No “Jeez!”
No audible “Man!”
Nothing.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but bullshit.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what kind of
crazy pills do you take?
How the fuck do take what i actually type and extrapolate them to these stupid little comments you make?
Learn how to have a conversation with somebody without acting like a little bitch
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Ah, back to the insults
You really have no other setting, do you?
You said, “I bitch to myself and hope they do better”
That indicates you keep silent the entire time. You mutter, maybe, but certainly nothing that can be heard, right?
I’m saying that is unrealistic, hypocritical and setting too high a standard for what is, after all, the paying customer of an entertainment product.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do you explain this?
1029-848.
That’s the collective record of home teams in MLB.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Familiarity with fields
Less travel, sleeping in own bed, seeing the wife and kids, better ump calls and yes, fan support.
But here’s the thing. Good teams win on the road and at home.
The Cardinals — armed with the best fans in baseball — are a whopping ONE game better at home than on the road.
And the Cubs — who are facing horrid fans, apparently — are 35-23 at home and 27-38 on the road.
Bradley — who is apparently the biggest victim — is hitting .316/.432/.513 at home and .208/.354/.298 (.298 SLUGGING!) on the road.
His BATTING AVERAGE at home is better than his SLUGGING PERCENTAGE on the road.
Maybe the dimensions of Wrigley Field have more to do with performance than anything a fan says or does?
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and yes, fan support.
Thanks. That’s all I was asking for agreement on.
Once you admit fan support matters, why would you hold that fan criticism does not?
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure it does
But it isn’t always a detriment.
Quite a few players — Dempster comes to mind — don’t mind the booing. Others enjoy shutting fans up. Others sulk.
Again, Bradley is playing so much better at home than on the road that I wonder if this is part of HIS package. He needs to be the martyr to succeed.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe it
is unrealistic that I dont act like an asshole to a baseball player making a mistake at a game I choose to watch.
And thats too bad for you.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A guy reaction is totally different...
than a “BOOOOOOO.” That takes conscious thought. How can you not see the difference here?
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
because
he isn’t interested in a genuine discussion! He either lacks the ability to reason/discuss or he willfully behaves the way he does here.
He asks a question then takes the answer to said questions and mis-represents it. Then he acts like a crybaby when people call him out on his nonsense.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And you take every challenge to your "authoritae!"
as a personal affront.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no
you project that attitude onto me because you are insecure for whatever reason.
seriously, go to your local college and take an intro course on logic. You make so many basic errors in your arguments that its embarrassing to me.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My gut reaction is "boo" to a bad play.
by Arbusto on Aug 26, 2009 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And how long to you boo for?
Is that all gut reaction?
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's your opinion...
I invest my time, my money, and my emotions into this team. I’m not going to let some asshole like you on the internet tell me what kind of fan I am.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Aug 26, 2009 11:53 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions 6 recs
Spending time following a team is just like giving effort on the field
It’s nice, but it doesn’t entitle you to anything
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 26, 2009 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not about what's "right" or "wrong"
it’s about what’s smart. Booing is stupid. I still haven’t seen any argument as to how it could possible help the team.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
At some point...
It’s not our job to help the team.
We’ve all seen this scenario many times. When a Cubs pitcher gets an 0-2 count (really, any two strike count) on a guy with the bases loaded in a tight game, the home fans stand up and start clapping.
It’s an appreciation of the moment. It’s hopefully a distraction to the hitter. It’s hopefully a little boost to the pitcher.
And when the hitter gets a hit and two runs come in, there is a HUGE deflation in the stadium.
None of that “helps” the team. It’s a pure reaction.
I refuse to believe that anyone cheers, boos, swears, applauds or anything else with the thought, “How am I affecting the team?”
It’s a pure reaction, good or bad.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Is it your job to hurt the team?
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
These are grown-ass men.
Booing comes after poor performances, not before them, so the way I see it, how much worse can booing make a poor performing player?
by dakoose on Aug 26, 2009 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
you are a grown ass man
care to post your work number and let us call and heckle you after you mess something up?
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Get 40k people to pay me to come and watch me at work and you can throw banana peels
at me if/when I screw up for all I care.
by dakoose on Aug 26, 2009 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
im sure you say that
now since you know that will never happen.
Paying for a baseball ticket doesn’t earn you the right to act like a jackass.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think booing makes someone a jackass.
Cursing someone out and making fun of his/her family like some bleacher bums do make them a jackass.
by dakoose on Aug 26, 2009 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm
glad we can at least agree that the things usually said before/after a BOOOO are unacceptable.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
in this case
the 40k people would be the same as your boss…the one who pays you. If your boss boo’d you would you care?
Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.
by Dave Pendleton on Aug 26, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your boss would fire you.
I WISH I would just get booed by my boss if I didn’t peform my job up to expectations.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Aug 26, 2009 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bosses get on their guys all the time.
It’s not Ari Gold sty;e, but it’s comparative to booing.
by dakoose on Aug 26, 2009 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
but you'd care, wouldn't you?
Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.
by Dave Pendleton on Aug 26, 2009 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not going to let some asshole like you on the internet tell me what kind of fan I am.
But players should let some asshole like you tell them what kind of player they are.
by Wreckard on Aug 26, 2009 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions 8 recs
It goes with the territory...
…that is why some players aren’t cut out to be in high pressure markets.
We are dealing with human beings here, and everyone is wired differently.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Aug 26, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
zing!
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 26, 2009 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why yes, yes I do...
Baseball is entertainment. They are paid to perform for us, and the revenues from tickets sales, TV deals, and advertisement is all geared to generate money from the baseball FAN. If a fan is displeased with the product and effort on the field, they can voice their displeasure.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Aug 26, 2009 9:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh...
And Alfonso Soriano says I can.
They pay their money, so they can say what they want.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/chi-27-cubs-milton-bradley-aug27,0,5478912.story
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Aug 26, 2009 10:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd credit the pitcher for being able to strike them out!!
i don’t think i’d take the view that the hitters actually TRIED or WANTED to strike out.
if YOUR pitcher strikes has a man on third and one out and he strikes out the next two hitters, who’s performance are you focused on? I bet it’s your pitcher!
Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.
by Dave Pendleton on Aug 26, 2009 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oops..
should read…
if YOUR pitcher has a man on third and one out and he strikes out the next two hitters, who’s performance are you focused on? I bet it’s your pitcher!
Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.
by Dave Pendleton on Aug 26, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that, too!
By the way, you’ve had the good fortune of pulling for some excellent pitching this season so you know what you’re talking about. ;-)
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm on your side here, shawn.
there seems to be some pretty stark differences of opinion on this, but I agree with you.
I don’t boo at all… but I do think there are times when it is acceptable.
Manny
Bonds
Michael Vic
players that just have shown themselves to be complete assholes by something they do off the field.
and players that just show lack of hustle repeatedly.
but to boo a player who’s in a slump or in a funk of some kind just seems to be counter-productive to me.
I especially dislike the “he’s getting paid a lot of money, and he strikes out” (or something similar).
first of all…..if i hired you and paid you a gazillion dollars to be a spell checker and you miss a spelling error, should i boo you, call you on the carpet, chastise you? will that help? I’m the one who offered to pay you that much, in the first place. Maybe it’s me who should be boo’d. And if a fan thinks that money gives a player the ability to hit….well…i think he’s severely mistaken.
the fan should be given a bat and take a swing. if he misses then write him a check and let him take another swing and see if that helps. I bet it doesn’t.
It’s the agents and owners fault that players are making as much as they do. If you really feel the need to boo somebody then why not boo them for putting the game out of reach for the fans and putting so much expectations on some of these players (because they make so much money).
I don’t think many of would pass on that much money if it were offered and most of us would try our best to earn it, but salary doesn’t create ability….period
Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.
by Dave Pendleton on Aug 26, 2009 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Izzy
So would the booing of last year of Isringhausen be justified?
"It's a funny old world. Man's lucky if he gets out of it alive." W.C. Fields
by KedzieKid on Aug 26, 2009 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No.
and that’s been a problem, in my opinion, with the current batch of fans here in St Louis.
They ain’t what the use to be!
Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.
by Dave Pendleton on Aug 26, 2009 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't say this but you seem to imply that players making a lot of money is wrong.
It’s the players that fans pay to watch play and they deserve every penny they earn. Would you rather owners pocketed even more money? I know that’s not the point of what you are saying but it’s an implication you make. You may have wanted to point out that players are paid so much because they have a very unique skill that average people don’t possess. Fans seem to think that since they played little league or even high school and college ball that they know what it takes to play the game when they do not.
Players are paid what the market has determined they are worth it’s simple. If fans think that a player is not performing up to that contract that’s their opinion but the market has determined different. A player doesn’t deserve to be booed because fans think he’s overpaid and seems to be the mentality of many of the booers. Soto and Fontenot have played horribly at different times during this season and are rarely booed but they are also not paid like Bradley, Soriano and Zambrano. The Cubs actually need their higher paid players to perform at optimum level and booing those players doesn’t help that happen.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Aug 26, 2009 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, not at all.
Actually, i think PAYING them that much is wrong.
Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.
by Dave Pendleton on Aug 26, 2009 6:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How is it wrong to pay people a share of the profits that are generated because of their unique talents and abilities?
Do you think the Owners should keep a bigger share of the revenue? Why?
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Aug 26, 2009 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're reading far too much into what i'm saying
and this could get off the topic at hand.
How much the players are making could be a topic of its own, but to be brief about it, and clear about it, i’ll say this to answer your question…and please take it for EXACTLY what it says.
This is my own take on it and it applies to sports figures, actors, and recording artists, just to name a few.
I have no problem with people making money, sometimes a LOT of money.
I have no problem with sharing the revenue.
What I have a problem with is greed, basically. There comes a point when the amount of money earned becomes obscene.
What I have a problem with is that obscene amounts of money goes toward our “entertainment” when there are people struggling with their daily lives…people who actually do things that are far more important than playing baseball, singing and in general, amusing those than still afford to be amused.
I benefit far more from teachers, doctors, scientists and the like. That’s where I think the BIG money should go.
I have to stop now about this because I said I’d be brief but there’s a lot more to say about it.
Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.
by Dave Pendleton on Aug 27, 2009 8:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In a capitalist society the revenue generated by the profession is going to go to the people that work in it.
You sound like you are against capitalism as opposed to players making the share of money they have earned. There are professions that are certainly more important like teaching but there are more people that can teach than hit a curve ball. Just keep in mind that if the players weren’t making the money it wouldn’t be going to teachers and cops it would be going to very wealthy owners.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Aug 27, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me put it more simply.
I’m apposed to GREED and people making FAAAAARRR more money than they can ever need or spend.
no matter what kind of society in which it happens. and it happens in most societies….Capitalist, Marxist, Socialist, Communist, etc.
To me, there’s just no way that somebody should be paid $27 Million dollars to play baseball for 4 years and then get a new contract for $34 Million after that for the next 4 years when farmers that help feed us all are losing their farms, when we don’t know if we’re going to have enough flu vaccine and my son or your daughter is suffering from a disease that we can’t cure because there’s not enough money going into research. and on and on and on.
You can slice it and dice it and spin it anyway you choose and tell me that I’m against somebody earning money and it won’t change my view about it.
This bears repeating:
There comes a point when the amount of money earned becomes obscene.
Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.
by Dave Pendleton on Aug 27, 2009 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is what the market demands he get's paid.
This is how much revenue he can produce via his production as a player and advertising and what not. If you don’t like it that’s too bad, it’ not changing. It might seem obscene, but it is the going rate for ballplayers whether you like it or not.
I agree money should be spent on better things, but it’s because sports are so popular that these players can get payed this much.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 27, 2009 10:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea, I get it.
I’m fully aware of how it works. And no, I don’t like it, and yes, it’s too bad, and no, it’s not going to change, but neither will my opinion, which just happens to different than yours.
I don’t say that it might seem obscene, I say it IS obscene.
When the market DEMANDS that the best shortstop be paid one BILLION a year, will that be too much? How about a Trillion? Stadiums are being built to hold fewer people than before. How come? because they can generate the same or more money per butt by charging more and more per ticket…pricing out more and more of the average Joe Blow, making it more and more of an elite event.
At some point I have to ask myself how much is too much.
Too much arrived a long time ago for me. I see it as a growing monster. Keep feeding the monster what it demands and accept it, if you like. I choose not to.
Just curious, whose side were you on during the baseball strike?
The owners complained about not having enough revenue to pay the players what they were DEMANDING.
The players said the owners were showing false books.
Well, I didn’t like either side, they’re both too greedy.
The only time I go to a game now is if the tickets are given to me, I share the parking expense and I refuse to buy a $7 beer so that we can pay the players what the market demands. It’s a cause and affect kind of thing. I’ll donate the money to a more worthy cause.
And that’s how I see it.
Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.
by Dave Pendleton on Aug 28, 2009 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stadiums are different that's using public money to make things that help a private companies profit.
That is ridiculous. The players money is coming out of the team’s wallet and because they make so much money they can pay a lot of money for their services. I have no issue with players making lots of money.
It’s fine to have that opinion, I just disagree.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 8:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that's fair.
No problem with that. I wouldn’t boo those guys, but I can see where you would and can respect that.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 10:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No offense.
But that’s an extremely selfish attitude.
Having the right to do something doesn’t make it the right thing to do.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The right thing to do?
For who? You? Don’t push your “fan morality” or code of ethics on me. I don’t personally attack, I don’t use profanity at players, nor do I use any type of racial slurs. But I boo when I
dissatisfied with the effort and/or outcome of a performance (at times).
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Aug 26, 2009 11:59 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not pushing a code of ethics...
I’m not even saying booing is unethical. I just think it’s stupid. If it can only hurt your team and not help it, then there’s no good reason to do it.
And I didn’t say it was wrong, just making the point that having the right to do something doesn’t make it the right thing to do.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Booing itself doesn't bother me
Booing the home team is probably isn’t necessary, but there are times where I understand it.
The racial crap towards Milton and to a lesser and secret extent Z is ridiculous.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Aug 26, 2009 11:29 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
re Milton
it is not just the booing, but the fact many made up their mind about him before he even signed. Many in the media (KAPLAN for example) will never find a single positive to say about MB. MB could hit 5 grand slams, and walk 8 times in the same game, and they will look for somethign negative to say about him still.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Aug 26, 2009 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Now THAT is true
Milton has gotten an unfair shake.
Again, stupid booing
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cry me a river milton.
I am so sick of the “Milton is a martyr” crap. What part of 30 RBIs in LATE AUGUST do we not understand here? Bradley gets booed because of his pity party attitude and complete failure to show up when under any kind of pressure on him (also see Hawkins, Latroy). Has he had a single big hit when it counts this year? I literally can’t think of one instance. Combine that with his constant whining about the fans and ridiculous salary and it’s a recipe for fan hatred, right or wrong.
Just PLEASE don’t play the race card- that’s got nothing to with it. No one boos Derrek Lee, do they?
by reedjohnson on Aug 26, 2009 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
The sooner we get rid of this whiner the better. Fans are allowed to cheer and to boo whoever they chose. Those who spew racial comments should be treated like the beer dumping guy (disgraced). I for one have never heard a racial slur at Wrigley.
A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.
by copes006 on Aug 26, 2009 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed 100%
Anyone who makes it personal or racial is an idiot, no doubt. But these players need to understand (and our management as well) that Wrigley is an extreme pressure cooker.
101 years of losing will do that to a fan base. The sooner would-be free agents realize this, the better IMO- so if Bradley’s whining turns others away, so what. Anyone who can’t play under that kind of pressure need not apply.
by reedjohnson on Aug 26, 2009 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just PLEASE don’t play the race card- that’s got nothing to with it. No one boos Derrek Lee, do they?
This is the Cubs equivalent of the “I have lots of black friends” argument.
by Wreckard on Aug 26, 2009 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I guess...
But you honestly think Bradley, PAtterson, and Hawkins, to name a few, were booed because they were black? I just don’t buy it.
by reedjohnson on Aug 26, 2009 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cubs fans sure seem to give black players less chances to fail
I don’t recall Joe Borowski, John Mabry, Kent Merker or Phil Nevin taking that kind of abuse from fans after their periods of sustained crapiness or sensitivity to / prickliness with the media.
There’s been a lot of bad players that have come through town in the last decade. It could simply be a coincidence that all of the examples we can think of for players that were basically booed out of town were black, or it could be a pattern.
by Wreckard on Aug 26, 2009 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I pretty sure
Howry, Eyre, Farnsworth, and Dempster (as a closer) all heard a lot of Boos from the fans.
A few ignorant assholes throw some racial epithets around and people try to make this about race when its not. its about expectations and results. Let the ignorant assholes speak for themselves, but not for me and not for anyone else booing in the stands.
"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella
by El Borto on Aug 26, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
See
Gregg, Kevin
Miles, Aaron
Howry, Bob
by WittyUserName on Aug 26, 2009 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think any of them
have taken the abuse that Bradley has.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 26, 2009 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kevin Gregg was booed during opening day intros
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 26, 2009 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bradley
was booed before he got here.
I’m not saying these guys don’t take abuse. I’m saying it’s not as bad as the abuse Bradley has taken. Of the three, Gregg has probably taken more then Miles or Howry did.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 26, 2009 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd also guess
That a lot of the reason Gregg got booed is because he’s not Kerry Wood.
by redward on Aug 26, 2009 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes.
Heilman replaced Howry, so there were low expectations. Miles replaced Fontenot, who was replacing DeRosa, essentially, so again, lower expectations.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 26, 2009 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Difficult to quantify
It’s not as though there is a numerical value that can be applied to one form of abuse or another (from the fans that is). So I wouldn’t go so far as to say that Bradley has clearly had it far worse than Gregg and Miles, but I can’t deny that I’d agree Bradley has likely gotten a rawer deal than the other two.
My point was that fans, in general, get on players because they aren’t very good, or aren’t performing. I don’t think fans will go so far as to hate a player simply because of their ethnicity (as demonstrated by my examples). At least not in mass quantities.
I’ll be honest, I didn’t like the Bradley signing. I didn’t think he fit the teams needs, nor did I want the Cubs to have any part of a player whom has his history of off-field issues. But my distaste of the signing had nothing to do with his skin color. I hated the Miles signing immensely, and I can’t imagine I’d feel stronger or differently if he wasn’t a short white guy.
Racism exists, I’m sorry to break the news. Some people are racist, some people are Cubs fans, therefore some Cubs fans are racist.
We’d all be lying if we said the treatment at the hands of the fanbase of a black player who is playing poorly was 100% identical to that of a poorly playing white player. But that doesn’t mean that all those who rag on a dark skinned athlete are doing it because they are prejudice.
The problem that the prejudice fans, and also those who label the fanbase as racist, is that they are painting with too broad a brush. When a fan berates a black outfielder with racist slurs, they make not only themselves look bad, but, by extension, they make me look bad as well (and I wasn’t even at the game). But I think it’s important the recognize that those who criticize and label the Cubs fanbase as racist, are doing the same injustice to us all as those among us who really are racially biased.
by WittyUserName on Aug 26, 2009 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not as though there is a numerical value that can be applied to one form of abuse or another (from the fans that is).
WE NEED AN ABUSE STAT!
you take your F% and your S% and your FS% and your GDFS% and add them all up, divide by BCT and you get your AbusePCT.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 26, 2009 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the funny thing is
I’m really not. I SUCK at math. But I CAN read a stat line.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 26, 2009 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
f*ckin' sabermagician...
there – fixed that for you. ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Aug 26, 2009 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps instead of thinking Milton Bradley would become something he never was
and never will be has something to do with it.
He isn’t a RBI guy, he’s getting on-base at a disgusting level despite not having a great batting average. His second half numbers are stellar. RBI is a team dependent BS stat.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Aug 26, 2009 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The RBI thing is the moving goalpost of the anti-Bradley crowd
Now that he’s actually producing they have to cherry pick to find something else to criticize. It’s given birth to this whole “Hendry signed him to be a run producer!” meme.
by Wreckard on Aug 26, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um, yeah, people were booing DLee last season.
Y’know when many so-called Cubs fans were so ingeniously calling him “DP-Lee.” But the racial thing aside, Milton Bradley has gotten a number of big hits this season – just because you can’t “literally” think of one isn’t our problem. (Can you “figuratively” think of one?) And if you still need someone to explain to you why RBIs aren’t a good measure of a player’s value, I’m not sure what to tell you.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Aug 26, 2009 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Derrek Lee remarked early in this season that it's difficult to listen to fans deride you every time you fail when you are giving your best effort.
Was Lee feeling sorry for himself? Fortunately for him most of the media in this town like him and didn’t take him to task for what he said. Bradley hasn’t been given the same slack by the media or fans. If you know something is wrong then why justify or excuse it? The treatment Bradley has received from fans and media has been just plain wrong. He deserves to be treated with respect regardless of his RBI total, which of course he can’t control since it’s a team dependent stat.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Aug 26, 2009 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes Lee was booed
early in the year when he absolutely sucked.
by socalbob on Aug 26, 2009 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
reedjohnson
you stated
I am so sick of the "Milton is a martyr" crap. What part of 30 RBIs in LATE AUGUST do we not understand here?
let me address then one at a time
"Milton is a martyr"
maybe you misunderstood me. I am not saying it is wrong to call it like it is. But when fans or media are talking/printing negatives before the first time he puts on a hat that is wrong. Chicago is horrible about this kind of thing, and it happens often (not just for MB, but others in every sport). kaplan alone could fill a weeks worth of programing with hatred for Zambrano, Soriano, and Bradley while all three are on a hot streak.
What part of 30 RBIs in LATE AUGUST do we not understand here?
that is not MB’s fault 100%. He is best known for OBP not RBI’s thru his career. he is a perfect #2 hitter IMO which is not (traditionally) a RBI guy, but someone who sees a lot of pitches, can get on base, etc. I am not saying he should be off the hook for not driving in runs, do not mix words here. he should drive them in when given the chance, but how many times has he walked in a RBI situation (or been called out on what looked like ball 4 as well). That is not a middle of the order hitter, that is a top of the line up hitter. Hendry signed a #2 hitter to be a #5 tytpe hitter.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Aug 26, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
why the booing happens
I think Bradley gets booed for his attitude more than anything else these days. He hasn’t truly earned his contract this year, but he has not been part of the problem, at least on the field, for a while now.
In any case, the fans have to right to boo, I believe. There is no reason for a team as talented as this to go out there so listlessly. Its extremely frustrating. And you can’t tell me the players don’t have thick enough skin to take some boos from time to time.
However, I don’t boo, unless a player really, REALLY deserves it (such as the Aarons). But when I watch a team that has every element needed to make a postseason run play like this team has, I absolutely will not cheer.
by Mulhollandmania on Aug 26, 2009 11:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Nope, no booing of the Aarons
They are TRYING, after all.
I refuse to believe that the Angels and Saints here express no disgust whatsoever. It sounds pretty to say, but I just do not buy it.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll expres disgust. The same way Ron Santo does.
Do you hear disgust from him? Yup. Do you hear him boo the players? No way.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
See, I think Ron's "jeez!" and "Man!" and "Oh God" and whatever other noises he makes
is potentially more detrimental, just because his soapbox is so much bigger.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But that's natural!
Don’t you think the players have the same reactions? Heck, if i’m playing a low-stakes softball, basketball, or flag football game I have those reactions. Booing is a totally different animal.
It’s really shocking that you don’t understand the difference.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think so
Because I don’t believe there IS a difference.
I think booing, jeering, whatever — something that has been going on in sport since the Roman gladiator fights — is as natural and reflexive an action as anything else.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ron's "jeez" or whatever
Is the same thing as a boo. Both are showing disgust.
It’s not so much the word as the sentiment that’s conveyed. If I stub my toe and yell “Fudge” I’m swearing just as much as had I yelled “fuck!”
by Arbusto on Aug 26, 2009 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you can't tell the difference between the two.
There’s no point arguing with you.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You haven't explained why a boo is a conscious, willful, hateful act
and a “Jeez!” is just an involuntary reaction.
And Santo has more influence on Cub nation than any drunken fool in the bleachers.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, here's the difference.:
Try saying these two things out loud, and see how long you go before you start to think about what you’re doing:
DAMN!
BOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BBBBBBBBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BBBBOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!! YOU SUCK! BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
See the difference?
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well on a related note, you've certainly proved my point about swearing in game threads
or anywhere else in BCB where it takes a conscious effort to actually sit down and type the words and then hit post.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Aug 26, 2009 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm still communicating anger
no matter which word I’m choosing.
If I called worf a “doo-doo head” in an angry tirade instead of a “shithead” I’d still be making a hate-filled personal attack. The emotion behind the word gives the word it’s force, not the word itself (generally).
by Arbusto on Aug 26, 2009 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not the negative reply that's the issue...
it’s sustaining it loudly and vocally for many seconds. That’s the part that takes conscious effort.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you communicate less
with a single “damn” than a long “booooooooooooooooooo”?
I disagree. They communicate the same thing. They’re both an emotional response.
by Arbusto on Aug 26, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All negative emotional responses are the same.
That’s your argument at this point. Good luck with that.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sometimes when my girlfriend makes me angry, I'll shake my head and mutter something to myself.
Other times though, like when she really gets on my nerves, I’ll sap her around a little bit. I figure they both communicate my displeasure equally.
by GoBackToSchaumburg on Aug 26, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hopefully you're kidding
Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.
by Dave Pendleton on Aug 26, 2009 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he is
using “Arbusto’s” logic to illustrate how stupid that line of thought is
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's hardly stupid "CalCalendar"
I can communicate just as much anger and hatred by using different words than using words that offend societies sensibilities of what is offensive.
I haven’t said that all emotional responses are the same. I’m saying you can communicate the same thing multiple ways. I said his “damn” was the same as a “boo.”
by Arbusto on Aug 26, 2009 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
... and to answer your question.
Yes.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He hasn't been part of our inability to hit with RISP?
chuckle, chuckle
by reedjohnson on Aug 26, 2009 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Some people say the glass is half empty, some say half full. I say, are you going to drink that?
by BleedsbluinMI on Aug 26, 2009 11:48 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
reply fail, meant for Mulhollandmania
Some people say the glass is half empty, some say half full. I say, are you going to drink that?
by BleedsbluinMI on Aug 26, 2009 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Had I been at the games the past couple of years
in which Soriano and ARam dogged it on balls they thought were either homers or would be caught, I would have booed. I remember yelling a few times during the futile Neifi/Korey experiment but that WAS directed at Dusty. But since my seats weren’t in the first row behind the Cub dugout, it left me no other way to voice my displeasure at the manager’s insane behavior. You can say that’s not why people boo but it is in fact why I booed.
by the nth on Aug 26, 2009 11:57 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Do you think Dusty heard you?
Did Hendry? DId they know you were booing or yelling at them?
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if they didn't
There’s no harm in booing.
by Arbusto on Aug 26, 2009 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But what if the players heard?
And mis-interpreted it?
The point is if you want to voice your displeasure with the presence of a player on the roster, booing is not an effective way of achieving that goal. There’s not an ambiguous signal there, as the booing could be easily mis-interpreted.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you really think their egos are that fragile?
by Arbusto on Aug 26, 2009 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe they are.
I also don’t know how fragile one has to be to be affected by having thousands of people boo you. I’ve never had that many people care about what I do, and I doubt you have either.
It might affect them. If it does, it probably doesn’t help.
I’ll repeat the question I want the answer to the most:
WHY BOO?
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You got that right, seeing as how you're easily mis-interpreting why everyone boos
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Aug 26, 2009 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently Dusty did not hear me.
Or if he did, he chose to ignore my comments from above the main aisle above first base. But to watch something like the Neifi/Korey thing happen day after day without uttering a peep of dissatisfaction was impossible for me. I agree that it changed nothing. I just can’t paste on a smile while my intelligence is insulted.
For those who took it all in and just said, “Come on, Cubbies!” More power to you. I don’t consider you either a better or worse fan than I am.
by the nth on Aug 26, 2009 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know who you think you are to call people a shitty fan for booing...
I personally have never booed anyone for the Cubs. If a player is in a batting slump and steps up everytime and gives it 100% to hit or field a ball and fails I take into fact that it’s just not working for them at the time. But when a player like Soriano, who makes as much as Soriano does, hits .240 and half asses it in the field I will boo my ass off.
I will not boo struggles but if I feel like I want the Cubs to win the game more than you do then I’ll boo. By the way, you confronting somebody in the stands for booing is going to start a fight half the time which is what really makes the bleachers look bad..NOT BOOING!
"Live and be happy, beloved children of my heart, and never forget that until the day comes when God will deign to reveal the future to man, all human wisdom is contained in these words: wait and hope!" - The Count of Monte Cristo
by Bricks and Ivy on Aug 26, 2009 12:01 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Do you know why Soriano has been dogging it in the field this year?
It’s because he crashed into a wall for this team.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so does Sam Fuld.
if you’re hurt tell the Cubs you are hurt and sit down. He’s not that valuable to the team to play hurt batting.240
"Live and be happy, beloved children of my heart, and never forget that until the day comes when God will deign to reveal the future to man, all human wisdom is contained in these words: wait and hope!" - The Count of Monte Cristo
by Bricks and Ivy on Aug 26, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did it affect his eyes too?
And that’s why he can no longer recognize the slider four feet off the plate?
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to let facts get in the way of your argument
which of course they never do
Soriano is actually swinging at fewer pitches out of the strike zone than he has in his previous 2 years with the Cubs (36.8% vs 40.8% and 38.7% in 2007 and 2008).
by Wreckard on Aug 26, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Serious question
What’s the league average?
What’s the average for hitters batting, say, .280?
All three of those totals that you listed seem crappy to me . . . .
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 26, 2009 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it would also be interesting
to see how many pitches out of the zone are being hit for base hits.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 26, 2009 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point
For someone like Vlad Guerrero, that percentage is probably high compared to the rest of the league.
For Soriano, probably not so much.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 26, 2009 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
this year
certainly.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 26, 2009 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't be surprised if it was relatively constant
I think the difference this year is, when pitchers make a mistake (by actually throwing him a hittable strike), he’s not been taking advantage of it. That could be related to his knee.
I’m not sure that he was ever a “good” bad-ball hitter.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 26, 2009 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know.
I don’t have empirical evidence. I do have more than a few memories of him golfing low and away pitches out over the LF bleachers.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 26, 2009 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not like the ones that he swung at on Friday night, though
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 26, 2009 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
of course not
he’d have to step over the plate to do that, and doesn’t that automatically make him out, because he’s left the batter’s box? :P
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 26, 2009 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clearly what Soriano needs to do then is get a longer bat.
Man, that’s so simple – why didn’t anyone think of this sooner? ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Aug 26, 2009 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
fetch me a saw
and tell everyone to hang up their phones…
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 26, 2009 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The league average is around 25%
I’m not saying that Soriano wouldn’t be better if he had better plate discipline (though I will add that not only does Soriano swing at more bad pitches than the average, he also swings at more pitches in the strike zone than the average. The fact is, he just swings at more pitches, good or bad, at about an equal rate).
All I’m saying is that Worf’s characterization that he is swinging at bad pitches this year is provably false.
by Wreckard on Aug 26, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't trying to argue the point either way; I knew what you were getting at.
Thanks for the follow-up.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 26, 2009 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, had I known Soriano was going to run into a wall in the '09 season,
I certainly wouldn’t have booed him in ’07 or ’08 for standing at home plate admiring what he thought were homers only to become long singles.
by the nth on Aug 26, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
that happened two or three times last year, and it happened to Rami too.
But you cannot deny that Soriano’s power, at least in part, got us to the playoffs two years in a row.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 26, 2009 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not denying Soriano's and ARam's power helped the Cubs win all those
games last year. But if I was in the park when they stood admiring a ball that didn’t leave the park, I would boo. My booing doesn’t deny the fact that their production is vital to the team.
by the nth on Aug 26, 2009 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So when there is a well hit ball and you are at the park you keep your eye on the batter instead of tracking the flight of the ball?
It sounds like you have been listening to too much Bob Brenly nonsense.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Aug 26, 2009 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You watch the ball?
You shouldn’t be criticizing, then. The way to tell if it’s got a chance to go or not is to watch the fielder.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 26, 2009 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I could avoid a fight.
I’m a pretty nice guy.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you might be able to...
….but the drunk guy you confronted for booing might not
"Live and be happy, beloved children of my heart, and never forget that until the day comes when God will deign to reveal the future to man, all human wisdom is contained in these words: wait and hope!" - The Count of Monte Cristo
by Bricks and Ivy on Aug 26, 2009 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll stick up for shawn here
If he asks someone to stop booing and that person’s reaction is to start swinging, that’s on the other guy, not on Shawn.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh i agree with that..
….but that’s not going to prevent it for happening
"Live and be happy, beloved children of my heart, and never forget that until the day comes when God will deign to reveal the future to man, all human wisdom is contained in these words: wait and hope!" - The Count of Monte Cristo
by Bricks and Ivy on Aug 26, 2009 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you think...
if I say “Hey, take it easy on the guy!”
He’s going to swing at me?
As down on Cubs fans as I am, I think I have a much higher opinion of them than you do.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
first of all you don't know me whatsoever to make a comment like that
I was only saying that you don’t know who you are talking to sometimes. Some people it dosen’t take much to want to fight when they are drunk.
That is another problem on this site. People breaking out the “Shows how much you like the Cubs” garbage. Most people on here don’t know each other. There much not be a lot of people who have disagreed with you in the past because you don’t take it well.
"Live and be happy, beloved children of my heart, and never forget that until the day comes when God will deign to reveal the future to man, all human wisdom is contained in these words: wait and hope!" - The Count of Monte Cristo
by Bricks and Ivy on Aug 26, 2009 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I'm making a lot less assumptions...
with my comment than you did with yours.
I appreciate the advice to avoid physical violence. I assure you that I have a pretty good track record in this regard. And I’m saying nothing about how much you like the Cubs, just stating that you were making the assumption that they had a high enough % of drunks that confronting one would automatically start a fight.
You have to admit that’s a pretty bad take on Cubs fans.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No and as I said before. ...
…. you do not know who who are talking to when you criticize someone you don’t know. You may tell a guy to cool and and he’ll think twice and sit down, another guy might be with his friends and not take it as well. Most people who are already angry aren’t going to take you teling them to stop booing well. Will it start a fight? Most of the time no. But you never know when you say something to the wrong guy.
Although I disagree with the post, the only problem I have with it is confronting someone for booing. If that is how they want to show their displeasure I don’t think it is my business to tell them otherwise.
"Live and be happy, beloved children of my heart, and never forget that until the day comes when God will deign to reveal the future to man, all human wisdom is contained in these words: wait and hope!" - The Count of Monte Cristo
by Bricks and Ivy on Aug 26, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough.
You don’t think it’s your business to tell them otherwise. I can respect that.
I feel it’s mine to at least call people out on it. I didn’t used to, but it’s gotten to the point where I’m sick of it. If someone wants to start a fight with me over it, that’s his or her problem.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
like Not Bruce Froemming said below though...
….if they are yelling something racial or personal I would say something. But just booing, no.
"Live and be happy, beloved children of my heart, and never forget that until the day comes when God will deign to reveal the future to man, all human wisdom is contained in these words: wait and hope!" - The Count of Monte Cristo
by Bricks and Ivy on Aug 26, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd probably agree with that...
but I’d also give someone a hard time if they booed a player that went 3-for-3 and then struck out in their 4th AB. And yes, this has happened.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes that is ridiculous.
"Live and be happy, beloved children of my heart, and never forget that until the day comes when God will deign to reveal the future to man, all human wisdom is contained in these words: wait and hope!" - The Count of Monte Cristo
by Bricks and Ivy on Aug 26, 2009 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I sometimes correct people at games who yell
misinformed shit. The biggest problem I find at games is the swearing. When I have my kids there I’ve asked people to cool the language many times and almost always they look at me like I’m insane. They usually then stop for a while but slowly the f-bombs return in full force. A large percentage of people, be they Cub fans or not, are just moronic jerks.
by the nth on Aug 26, 2009 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That kind of language is no longer acceptable.
You should try using the new security option that allows you to text Cub security the location of anyone who is doing/saying something inappropriate.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Aug 26, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
talk out of both sides much?
you say you never booed anyone for the Cubs and then you cite examples of why you would boo?
Which is it as all your examples are specific to your fandom?
by socalbob on Aug 26, 2009 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I live in Pittsburgh so I don't get to see as many games as most of you so..
I’ve never seen a specific example at PNC or the once a year trip to Wrigley that warranted booing. Watching on TV I have and would have booed then. So no I don’t talk out of both sides. Your apology is accepted.
It’s really getting to the point where you can’t disagree with people on here.
"Live and be happy, beloved children of my heart, and never forget that until the day comes when God will deign to reveal the future to man, all human wisdom is contained in these words: wait and hope!" - The Count of Monte Cristo
by Bricks and Ivy on Aug 26, 2009 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
we are not in any disagreement
your post was confusing. I do not apologize for anything. I asked a few simple questions. So you start your post saying you never boo and now you say you boo while watching on TV.
Thanks for clearing up your confusion—it is clear as mud now.
by socalbob on Aug 26, 2009 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moot point
I agree, but unfortunately I doubt this post will reach the people it needs to. It seems those doing the most taunting/yelling are ignorant wana-be fans who aren’t “true” fans. Rather, they get drunk, head to the bleachers and suddenly they’re stand up comics trying to impress friends by being obnoxious and loud.
by 10 14 23 26 on Aug 26, 2009 12:17 PM CDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
BOOOOOO!!!
THIS THREAD SUCKS!!! YOU’RE ALL BUMS!!!! BOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
by iCub on Aug 26, 2009 12:19 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
LOL
Nice!
A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.
by copes006 on Aug 26, 2009 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clarification
I realy don’t care about the boo’ing, it is part of the game. Fans boo in most sports, always will. However, people throwing things on the field/players or screaming racist/swear words should be banned from wrigley permanantly. There’s no reason for kids in the stands, nevertheless the millions of TV viewers, to see/hear that crap.
by 10 14 23 26 on Aug 26, 2009 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can see both sides of it
I have no problem with booing when truly warranted — when bad play is repeated over and over. For a long time, Cubs fans were too nice. It’s good to see them expecting more, really DEMANDING more. I think management has noticed (look at what happened after the empty-seat fest late in 2006).
But … that said, the booing at Wrigley has gotten out of control. Booing every time someone doesn’t get a hit, or every time a pitcher walks somebody, is ridiculous. It seems like fans are booing every time something doesn’t go right. In baseball, things USUALLY don’t go right. It is a game of failure, after all.
I understand the frustration. At the same time, you don’t have to be an idiot about it.
And, of course, the racial component is something I can’t ignore any longer. Is it coincidence guys like Bradley, Jones, Soriano, et al, are singled out for abuse, but guys like Fuld, Fox, Hoffpauir, etc., are put on a pedestal? Sometimes I wonder.
Granted, sometimes MB doesn’t do himself any favors with his public pronouncements. But there’s no need to make booing too personal, and that’s exactly what’s been happening at the drop of a hat, at the first sign of adversity, at Wrigley. And that part of it has to stop.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 26, 2009 12:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
THAT i agree with.
If I hear someone yelling something racial or personal to a player that is going over the line I will defenitely say something. It’s none of my business if they boo though.
"Live and be happy, beloved children of my heart, and never forget that until the day comes when God will deign to reveal the future to man, all human wisdom is contained in these words: wait and hope!" - The Count of Monte Cristo
by Bricks and Ivy on Aug 26, 2009 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Booing is also a little like team chemistry
It’s great when you’re winning.
When a team is in one of those 11-of-13 winning streaks, the walks, strikeouts with RISP, caught stealings, etc.. — still happen, but there is a confidence that the team will overcome it.
When a team is losing 15-6 to the Nationals at home and have fallen 9 games back in a very short period of time? And a 2-0 lead in the first inning feels insurmountable?
Yeah, fans get antsy.
The racial taunts ARE a problem. I will say that Miles and Heilman and Gregg are getting abused, but it is probably fair to say that they probably had to fail more and harder than Jones and Bradley did before getting equivalent treatment.
I don’t know the answer, but I also don’t think booing and racism are intertwined.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This comment makes the most sense
of this entire thread. I completely agree in the idea of warranted vs. unwarranted booing.
I’ll agree with Shawn’s idea that the constant booing may in fact be detrimental, although as professional athletes they should be used to the fact that booing, warranted or unwarranted, is going to happen and should be able to ignore it. I just can’t imagine a guy saying, “If they would just cheer me all the time I know I would do better”
by CubsFan87 on Aug 26, 2009 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I prefer a good "Get Your Head Out of Your Ass, Miles..."
…over booing.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Aug 26, 2009 12:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
this team
doesn’t even deserve to evoke an emotion from me anymore. they are pathetic. boo, cheer, cry doesn’t really matter. booing just shows that some fans demand more from this joke of team. so enjoy clapping for aaron miles or kevin gregg while the cubs slip into 4th place in the division.
by TJ3117 on Aug 26, 2009 12:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Personally
I see nothing wrong with booing a poor play. But when it comes to personal attacks that is crossing the line.
Trade Doug Deeds to Washington.
by wild bill on Aug 26, 2009 12:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Make the boos louder and for everything, even good things, so I can see more of these
…“Stop the booing” posts.
Bottom line, if you are a Cubs player and you made the statement that was quoted at the top of the OP, then check yourself. Booing has always been part of the game. You aren’t above it. Just because the Cubs give a player $XX Million for 100 years doesn’t mean that the fans love that player no matter what. Get over your over-paid, over-inflated ego, immature self and play the game hard and produce. Eventually the jerks booing will stop. However, pleading in the media and bringing one’s family into it will only make it worse. It gives an appearance to the jerks that one may be mentally weak and worth taunting more.
by DudeVf11 on Aug 26, 2009 12:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Booing has always been part of the game.
Booing, maybe, but booing as a frequent occurance is something that doesn’t happen in a lot of baseball stadiums the way it does here.
You think the Cardinals fans booed Khalil Greene when his personal issues seemed to be interfering with his ability to play? Because Cubs fans perceive the same of Z and Bradley and boo them all the time.
by Wreckard on Aug 26, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They ARE the best fans in baseball Wreckard
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 26, 2009 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, just ask
one of them sometime, they’ll tell you all about it …
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 26, 2009 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you'd have to ask more than one.
and if you ask, ask an old one who knows what it was, what it is, and what it’s becoming.
If you ask me…i’ll tell you all about it.
but only if you ask.
Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.
by Dave Pendleton on Aug 26, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 26, 2009 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
does that mean you're asking?
I’ll assume that it is.
we’ve been labeled as “the best fans in baseball” i guess for being knowledgeable of the game, fairly polite, and for great attendance every year, even in bad years.
That happens in other cities also, so i don’t know who gave us that label but I’ve heard it used by the “out of towners” as well as the locals so I assume it’s not just a local perception. But I really don’t know how much truth there is to it. We do have some good fans here, though.
If I were to defend being “the best fans in baseball” it would be for this…..
I’ve been going to games since the 50’s and the fans (for the most part, of course), have always had an appreciation for the performance on BOTH teams and their players.
They applaud a great play by the opposition as well as for their own team and show respect for players in general.
When a former player returns, wearing a different uniform he usually gets a good round of cheers, showing him that we appreciated his contribution when he was here. (let’s see what happens when Aaron Miles comes here!).
-- That’s the way it’s been --
But I’ve noticed a bit of a change since the new ballpark and I have a theory (just a theory) about that.
There are more fans that are more critical of their own players than before. They didn’t use to do that quite so much. What used to be “one in every crowd” is now “ten in every crowd”.
My theory is that with the new park came new ticket prices…much higher, naturally.
With the higher price came a new type of fan….the richer snob, who is more surly and demanding of his money’s worth, rather than the fan who goes to enjoy a game, win or lose.
They even throw the baseballs back onto the field if the opposition hits it. (hmm, where did that practice start anyway?)
not my kind of fan.
-- That’s the way it is now --
I expect it to get worse as prices rise and the more elite fan attends and the real baseball fan only watches it on TV.
-- That’s what I see ahead --
and not just in baseball but for everything in general. The more things that are controlled by those that have, the more surly, hard-shell, unforgiving, and intolerant it becomes.
Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.
by Dave Pendleton on Aug 26, 2009 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the perspective.
You assumed correctly – that did mean I was asking.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 26, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
question
when Pujols failed to run hard out of the box and a pop fly was dropped and only then did he run hard getting thrown out at 2B was “Cards Nation” in an uproar blasting Albert or booing him?
Just asking.
by socalbob on Aug 26, 2009 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
Albert is just adorable here. It may have happened and gotten past me somehow, but i really don’t remember Albert ever getting boo’d.
If so, it was probably of such low audibility in the grand scope of things, and therefore meaningless.
We don’t boo the players to any large degree that I see.
Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.
by Dave Pendleton on Aug 26, 2009 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
The fact that he’s the best player in baseball certainly scores some points for Pujols too
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 26, 2009 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
i think he’s adorable too!! he seems like a real straight up guy. he’s so good at everything i wonder if he’s the anti-
dare I say that?
Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.
by Dave Pendleton on Aug 26, 2009 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't think so
had Bradley or Soriano made that blunder, it would have been total chaos in Wrigley.
by socalbob on Aug 26, 2009 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't be silly
albert has absolutely never been booed
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Aug 26, 2009 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't remember that
sure you aren’t thinking of yadi?
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Aug 26, 2009 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
nope
Albert, at Wrigely Field, I bleieve it was a Sunday night game, popped up failed to run hard and then tried to run hard after it was dropped getting thrown out at 2B.
Even the Zeus of all hitters makes mistakes. I know it’s hard to believe.
by socalbob on Aug 28, 2009 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you have been asked
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Aug 26, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you really suck at Haiku's, Dave.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Aug 26, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know what that means.
Please explain.
Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.
by Dave Pendleton on Aug 26, 2009 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your comment was close
To a Haiku poem format
It did not make it
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 26, 2009 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry,
you’re speaking another language to me.
Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.
by Dave Pendleton on Aug 26, 2009 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Google is your friend
I also use it often
You should try it now
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 26, 2009 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then players should play for the Card fans if it matters that much to them.
Booing is part of the game and it does happen everywhere, and some markets are tougher than others. Some markets have more obnoxious drunks than others. That’s part of the fan base, unfortunately.
My main point is that a player isn’t going to get anywhere by addressing this in the media. If it bothers the player(s) that much then don’t sign the check to play in a market where it can get ugly with the jerk fan base.
A player with skills to market can easily choose a more comfortable place to play. I am not excusing or defending jerks that boo because they are jerks, but if it is such an issue that it’s frequent blog posting material, then the players should consider this before they sign in such markets.
Once he has signed then the player has to make the best of it while he’s here and he may be treated unfairly for an entire season or more. Sometimes the seasons go badly for everyone.
by DudeVf11 on Aug 26, 2009 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And you're ok with that?
You’re ok with telling prospective free agents that if they struggle or don’t look like they’re hustling (make sure you dive unnecessarily a lot!) that they’ll be booed, and if they don’t like that they should go elsewhere?
by Wreckard on Aug 26, 2009 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
excatly
lets limit the amount of potential free agents so guys like “DudeVf11” can heckle them.
That’s a great fanbase right there!
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no desire to heckle players.
Nor did I say they should be heckled. But if you think these types of public appeals somehow are productive then I disagree.
by DudeVf11 on Aug 26, 2009 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't agree with it.
But these types of posts and public appeals by players are unproductive at best, probably even counterproductive.
by DudeVf11 on Aug 26, 2009 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not kaheel
but what really pissed me off was a game where the cards were up 9-0 and jason motte came in to get some work and try to straighten himself out. he gave up 2 or 3 runs and they booed him when he left the mound. completely classless. not very frequent at cards games, but i get where you cubby fans are coming from with this
good post, op
Of course, hope means being cut down on some street corner, as you run like mad, by a random bullet.
by prophetjohn on Aug 26, 2009 11:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The fans should boo the shit out of this team.
I never understood the don’t boo crowd. If they team plays like shit, their is nothing wrong with giving them the business. Don’t tell me how to be a fan.
by dakoose on Aug 26, 2009 1:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
tell me this
if you weren’t at a ballpark would you say even half the shit you do to those guys faces? Or would you boo a chef after a poor meal?
If somebody can please explain why professional athletes don’t deserve the same kind of respect and courtesy we give other working people I would appreciate it.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I boo,
I don’t personal. I don’t say anything outside of the realm of baseball.
by dakoose on Aug 26, 2009 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
my point i
you wouldn’t do this to any other person working in any other profession. What makes it ok for ballplayers?
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a different environment.
Baseball fans make an emotional investment, one that leads them to spending money on merchandise and going to games, the same money that the players get paid with. My point is that the emotional investment we make (quite) often leads to anger at these players which usually manifests itself in booing. If we weren’t booing and emotionally invested, these players wouldn’t be making as much as they do.
by dakoose on Aug 26, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats not true
i go to plenty of Royals and Cardinals games and other fans DONT ACT LIKE THIS to the home team. They are just as invested as anybody else.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Royals games?
There’s nobody there to even boo the players. Let me just say this, there a bunch of ass-holes at Cardinals games. I also noticed that a vast majority of the people at cards games, are well, old and peaceful, and most of the people sitting around me had no idea about anything base-ball related. They may not have booed like Cubs fans, but when the Cards put runs on the board they didn’t cheer nearly as hard as Cubs do when their team scores runs. I walked away unimpressed with the involvement level of the fans.
by dakoose on Aug 26, 2009 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
some answers
1. yes, my wife asks me if they can hear me through the TV or radio. 2. booing equivalent is sending the meal back.
My explanation are expectations unfulfilled while: 1. receiving a large salary or 2. having a poor attitude.
If anyone here doesn’t think the money a player is receiving isn’t at least a sizable part – but not necessarily the majority – of the reason why said player is booed, you’re kidding yourself. Example 1: Soto strikes out with 2 on and 2 out versus Soriano strikes out with 2 on and 2 out. Who gets booed more? My answer would be Soriano.
The other sizable part is the perceived attitude of the player by the fans. Players that are considered more “fan friendly” get some more slack. Example 2: D-Lee pops up with a runner on 3rd and 1 out versus Bradley pops up with a runner on 3rd and 1 out. Who gets booed more? My answer would be Bradley.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Aug 27, 2009 8:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
look, I don’t mean to be a jerk here, but this argument has no merit. If a chef makes me a poor meal, I might not boo, but I would ask for my money back. The Cubs aren’t gonna be given any ticket holders money back if they go out and play a poor game. Players aren’t gonna be taking a decrease in salary if the fans aren’t pleased. What other way is there to show our displeasure but to boo, or should we just nod along and act like we don’t have an emotional investment in the team?
And honestly, if a player makes a stupid play, yeah, I’d tell them they did to their face. If he wants to fight over the truth, then that’s his perogative.
by Novacain on Aug 29, 2009 12:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look at it like this.
The greater the struggle, the greater the reward. These players would be treated like kings if they could just win a damn championship. They are presented with a tremendous opportunity when they signed on to play here, one that wouldn’t be there if we sat at games like emotionless robots and cheer while this 140 million dollar squad shits down it’s collective pants.
by dakoose on Aug 26, 2009 1:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
These players would be treated like kings if they could just win a damn championship.
Because, you know. It’s just that easy.

"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 26, 2009 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Every off-season, we hear from free agents
that their top priority is to sign with a contending team.
If a player signs with a team that expects to contend and that player or team doesn’t play up to expectations, they are going to be booed.
If they don’t like this, they are free to sign with a perennially non-contending team. I hear it’s nice and quiet in Pittsburgh this time of year.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Aug 26, 2009 1:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
or
you could be like Tori Hunter who had the Cubs and Angels both contending teams express interest. He decided to favor the team whose fans don’t act like 3 year olds.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good for Hunter, I wish Bradley would have taken the same advice.
I strongly object to calling a fan who boos a 3 year old. That is their choice. If I was hired by an organization and did not perform up to expectations, I’d be fired. Maybe the players should be thankful to still have a job.
Personally, I bought tickets last February expecting to see a meaninful games in August/September. I’m now stuck with those tickets. If any fan chooses to boo, that’s their choice. I’d rather get my money back but that’s not going to happen.
I will, however, not buy tickets for late in the season next year. I’ve learned my lesson.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Aug 26, 2009 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is so backward
YOU buy tickets of your own accord and somehow you think that entitled you to watch meaningful baseball later in the year? You do realize this is a game right? Nothing is given to teams in February.
I strongly object to you sir.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actuall, I'm a Miss.
And no, I never say I was entitled to anything. I just expected to see meaningful games. It was my mistake and I am literally paying for it. I won’t make that same mistake again.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Aug 26, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it was your mistake
and your mistake does not entitle you to boo and holler at the players. Nobody forced you to spend your money on anything.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, I never said I was entitled to anything.
Or that I was forced to purchase tickets.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Aug 26, 2009 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll buy
those tickets off you.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 26, 2009 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All I have left are single tickets for games against the Pirates, Astros and D-Backs.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Aug 26, 2009 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Torii
Didn’t want to play for the Cubs because of the brick wall and wouldn’t be able to rob home runs. That’s why when he was on the Twins, the Cubs were one of the teams on his NTC list he couldn’t be traded to.
by china423 on Aug 26, 2009 2:05 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
glad
you know Tori Hunter so well. It goes against what he said himself on record but w/e I’m sure you know the REAL story.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The confines aren't so friendly anymore.
I have been going to games since the early 90’s and this year has sickened me, both on the field and off. Yes this team has frustrated me, but what is worse is what I see in the stands. I have never heard a Cub player booed when starting lineups are announced except for this year. Too me, I just don’t understand the advantage to booing, especially when you have a lot vested in the team winning. Now if a player makes a bad play fine boo him, I won’t, but I won’t hold it against you if you do. But to boo a player before he is even on the field or does anything wrong is disappointing and quite a sad critique on the cubdom out there.
by Chodes Jr on Aug 26, 2009 1:47 PM CDT reply actions 5 recs
Personally, I'm glad the friendly confines are no longer so friendly.
That means the fans no longer accept losing.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Aug 26, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I dont
think they fans in 1990 liked losing anymore than fans today. But apparently back then they could still act like decent human beings.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, they just aren't willing to sit quietly and tolerate watching bad baseball any longer.
I am only talking about booing, not some of the foul language or personal insults people yell.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Aug 26, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think
the pre 2003 version of Al like tolerated losing more than he does now do you?
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, it has a lot to do with expectations.
Expectations are now much, much higher to begin with than they were in 2002.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Aug 26, 2009 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe its just me
but when my failed expectations for a baseball team drive me to boo and curse at strangers trying to do their job maybe its time to back away from the TV screen for awhile.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was under the impression we are talking about booing.
Cursing is never acceptable behavior and I think we can all agree about that.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Aug 26, 2009 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a moving target
The anti-boo folks are taking what most of us consider to be bad behavior and calling it booing.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no it's not
a “moving target” I have sat at plenty of games at Wrigley both in the bleachers and out and there are precious few people who just leave it at “booo”
Worf wants to pretend otherwise which makes me wonder how many games he has been to.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so get on the folks who curse and taunt and spew forth other objectionable bile...
…and leave those who literally “boo” alone.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Aug 26, 2009 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
But we all know that expectations in baseball many times are not fulfilled, like at the Tigers and Indians the past couple of years.
by Chodes Jr on Aug 26, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I'm sure their fans behaved like fluffy little bunnies
And guess what, the Tigers are in first place again this year.
I’m sick and tired of this mentality that this is a Cubs problem and a Cubs problem only.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know if anyone is saying
that this is just a Cubs problem. But, being Cubs fans, we’ve mostly had opportunities to see the behavior at Wrigley.
I know Phillies fans can suck. I know Mets fans can throw beer bottles at players. And we all know about White Sox fans. (sayhisnamethreetimesandhewillappear)
But, perhaps, some of us feel a sense of ownership of the Cubs viewing experience, and wish to improve it.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 26, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
as if
the fans have anything to do with wins or losses?
There’s 100,000 people on the season ticket waiting list. You think they’re gonna care if you don’t buy your Cubs 2010 Calendar?
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 26, 2009 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
or that the fans are jackasses
I am sure that we can agree to disagree on this one.
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
by vonde6 on Sep 10, 2009 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
October 14/15, 2003
The 2 days that changed Cubdom FOREVER.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Aug 27, 2009 8:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It sure did for me
I can honestly say that since then I have become more impatient, angry, and demanding when it comes to watching the Cubs. And I blame no one but myself.
by CaliCub on Aug 27, 2009 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have one more thing to say about this, having read all the responses, and then I'm done.
It appears that the more statistically-minded among the commenters here are the ones saying “no booing”, with the people on the perceived “other side” saying it’s OK.
As I said, I’m on the fence. Booing should be reserved for lack of effort, not simply failure.
I also think that some are booing the way this team has been put together. In that sense, the booing is for management. Some of that happens to be deserved.
And now, I’m done.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Aug 26, 2009 1:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It appears that the more statistically-minded among the commenters here are the ones saying "no booing"
Well it would be awfully silly to boo a spreadsheet wouldn’t it?
by Wreckard on Aug 26, 2009 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
What if it had Pac-Man embedded in it?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 26, 2009 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then that would be really cool?
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
by vonde6 on Sep 10, 2009 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well it would be awfully silly to boo a spreadsheet wouldn’t it?
That’s what we have databases for, duh
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 26, 2009 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
B-Trieve
I deal with applications that still have B-Trieve code in them.
shudder.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 26, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My personal bane is FORTRAN 77
I don’t actually do much database work
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 26, 2009 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
punch cards, anyone?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Aug 26, 2009 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not anymore
thank ghods. I do have some Cobol applications still out there, tho.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 26, 2009 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My personal *savior* is FORTRAN 77
Fixed, for personal accuracy and insanity.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 10:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Serious response
It appears that the more statistically-minded among the commenters here are the ones saying "no booing", with the people on the perceived "other side" saying it’s OK.
I actually find this kind of fascinating. I’ve found that around here over the last week, the “stats people” as you call them seem less likely to be calling out the team or the management for the results of this season.
It seems to me that “stats people” are more willing to chalk up the failure of a good team or a good player to variance / bad luck, where others look for someone to blame – calling for the firing of Hendry, the dumping of Soriano, the termination of Pinella, labelling the team a disaster.
I’m not sure what it says about these two groups, but I do think that it contradicts the strawman of the projection-obsessed stats-oriented fan. Projections are just scientific form of expectations after all – and it seems like the stats crowd deals very differently with a team’s failure to meet expectations.
As some on the other side might say, this is why we play the games after all.
by Wreckard on Aug 26, 2009 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 11 recs
This is actually a well-reasoned response.
I can’t disagree with any of it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Aug 26, 2009 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
rec'd
very well written, almost that brought a tear to my eye.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Aug 26, 2009 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
rec'd again
Wreckard, you make some very cogent points, and posts. Nice work.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 26, 2009 10:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is our responsibilty if not our duty
as fans to show our displeasure for the ignorant, selfish play we have seen on the field this year and in years past. What do you suggest we do? Write letters? Email?. The last few years we have seen an increase in payroll which has also brought an increase in ticket prices and increased expectations. With increased expectations we also have the problem of ticket procurement for the average fan. We have to from our seats show management and ownership that the play on the field is not o.k. The decision making through our scouting dept. on up to our general manager is not o.k.. What other way is there to do that if not through booing.
The play of this team has nothing to do with the fans. The collective baseball IQ of this team is why it plays the way it does.
There are some people here that have correctly pointed out that the Phillies, Yankees and even Boston have won under the glaring lights of scrutiny. The idea that booing is costing us future free agents is beyond absurd. If you have a player that’s worried about a little booing, that player doesn’t belong in a big market period.
We have players recent past and present that have done quite well for themselves in Chicago. Aram, Lee, Derosa, Edmunds just to name a few.
The problem rests with the players not the fans. It’s the type of free agents Hendry is giving contracts to. Hendry and the scouting staff should be looking at free agents with character, talent and a desire to play in the bright lights of a big market.
The problem resides with Bradley, not with us.
by troutfishin on Aug 26, 2009 1:58 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
And I'd argue it isn't a problem, not really
Not when you look at Bradley’s home/road splits.
His home batting average is greater than his road slugging percentage.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well based
on that well sampled and in depth analysis we can conclude the matter is solved!
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here you go...
already posted it
Bradley — who is apparently the biggest victim — is hitting .316/.432/.513 at home and .208/.354/.298 (.298 SLUGGING!) on the road.
Whatever the fans are doing to Bradley — and I do agree it’s long past the point of logic — it hasn’t affected his stats one iota.
If he hit on the road anywhere close to how he hit at home, he’d be a candidate for team MVP.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course one could argue
He would be playing even better at home without the booing than he is now making him an even greater asset to the team.
by Chodes Jr on Aug 26, 2009 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
plus
its coming straight from the players mouth- the booing and crap he deals with at home bothers him. What more proof do you need than that?
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I call that making
an excuse for piss poor play.
by troutfishin on Aug 26, 2009 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
he sure sucked ass last night didn’t he?
And yet he was still boo’d…………
care to try again?
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He has
a good night, a homerun and a couple of seeing eye singles in a 15-6 loss and all is forgiven.
by troutfishin on Aug 26, 2009 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh well
i suppose its his fault the score ended up 15-6.
BTW since the ASB he as been great. So I guess 1 poor half season was enough for you to condemn him. Thats smart!
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
.291avg, .436slg., 11rbi’s that’s other-worldly!
by troutfishin on Aug 26, 2009 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
i’m not to fond of dinosaur stats like RBI or you forgetting to mention the 400 + OBP and .851 OPS but to each his own.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah
I forgot guys like Ryan Howard are completely useless to a baseball team . Those 140rbi’s he drives in every year we should because because all he is, is a run producer. Make no mistake, Bradley was brought in to be a run producer even though his career stats indicate otherwise. He has become the whipping boy for this years team partly because of his past and partly because of this years play.
BTW, I dare you to talk about that RBI dinosaur crap to a guy like Harmon Kilibrew. I don’t know how old you are but at any age he could probably still kick your ass.
by troutfishin on Aug 26, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
this
is my most favorite comment in the history of ever.
Thank you.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do I sense
sarcasm because this diary seems to be dripping with it :)
by troutfishin on Aug 26, 2009 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh no i
really did rec the comment.
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's create a new stat right now
It’s called ORS, or Outs that Retire a Side. It measures the rate at which hitters end their half of an inning with a third out. Low is good. High is bad.
This will be a wonderful indicator of which players keep rallies alive and give their teams more chances to score a run.
I assume you see no problems with using this stat to measure the value of a player.
by redward on Aug 26, 2009 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
then you have to keep the stat
of who makes the first adn second out as well, since they put the third out guy in position to be out number three
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Aug 26, 2009 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the problem
is with the perception that, for example, Milton Bradley’s play is either selfish or ignorant.
It’s neither. He’s doing his job, best he can. Baseball is a game where you’re a loser if you fail three times out of four, but a great player if you fail two times out of three.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 26, 2009 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't Generally Like Booing
your own team- i don’t think it helps your team perform better . I have almost never booed my own team. However, last night I went to the game and booed quite a bit- in part because I had a lot of pent-up frustration about this failure of a season, and I truly believe the Cubs have no hope of coming back this year. Call me juvenile, but a As a fan who has spent a considerable amount of time and money watching this team underachieve, I found it quite cathartic.
by Manny Trillo on Aug 26, 2009 1:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Is this what we've come to now?
Bitching about booing?
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Aug 26, 2009 2:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Apparently it's the reason
we lose, won’t ever get a good free agent again and may be the cause of global warming.
Booing is the new Miles
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
read this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
you really do need that logic course
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look up sacrasm
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
mmm-hmm
except for the part about you making this mistake repeatedly throughout this thread
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do admit it's confusing
First it’s evil. Then it isn’t that much of an detriment. Then it’s the reason no free agents will ever sign here. Then it’s the reason Bradley is having a tough time, but he is literally almost twice the player at home than on the road.
It’s a bit of a moving target. Boos are bad, but all of Santo’s utterances are OK. Booing Bynum is bad, but Soriano is not so bad.
There are a lot of rules here. Why don’t you work on a stat for it and come back and tell us what you find?
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 2:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
oh worf!
you still dont understand the concept of a straw man argument do you?!?
You lovable ignorant scamp
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I get it now!
Anything YOU don’t like is abusive behavior
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 26, 2009 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmmm
you still can’t seem to understand. Maybe you need a larger list of argumentative fallacies?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Now I know reading isn’t your thing, you are much too busy booing bands and comedians who fail to amuse you but when you find a spare moment between your re-runs of COPS and UFC give it a go will ya?
by CalCalender on Aug 26, 2009 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pay no mind
Worf. One might argue that the stereotype Cub fans have received over the last twenty five years, you know the one that we are a bunch of drunk know nothings that would rather have a good time at a baseball palace than watch baseball. You know what? Part of that is true. I’ve been following the cubs long enough to have seen the fans packing the seats at Wrigley for an absolute waste of a baseball team. Most of these seasons were during the Harry Carey years and the fans would sit on their ass without a care in world waiting for Harry to sing the stretch. It wasn’t until the ’98 season(people always point to the ’03 season) that things started to change.
We expect more now, I know I always have.
by troutfishin on Aug 26, 2009 2:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
People who point to the 2003 season are more accurate
The team still drew despite being crappy in
1999, 2000 and 2002.
And the atmosphere wasn’t what it is now.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 26, 2009 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
After the
1998 season the atmosphere started to change. That’s when we started to see trash being thrown onto the field and just an overall over-hyped sense around the ballpark that things were starting to change. Maybe that had something to do with the promise of a young Kerry Wood coupled with the playoffs that year but the feeling around the ballpark definitely changed after that year.
by troutfishin on Aug 26, 2009 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trash has been thrown on the field for years
I can remember a game in 1982 or 1983 where idiots in the bleachers threw seat cushions on the field, causing a delay of game so long that the aging Fergie Jenkins lost the good stuff he’d had going into the inning (7th? 8th?) of a well-pitched game.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 26, 2009 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Randy Myers poster day
Saw the field littered with posters when Myers blew the save.
Myers was gone before 1998.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 26, 2009 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was in 1995.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Aug 26, 2009 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you remember the game with Jenkins that I referred to?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 26, 2009 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Al.....
got any sources saying anything about unloading anyone via waiver trades?
MB, Fuku, and some others have to have some tradability right now.
"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez
"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 26, 2009 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
None that I know of.
The two you mention — Bradley and Fukudome — both have over $20 million left on their contracts. They won’t be traded before the offseason, if then.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Aug 26, 2009 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still don't understand
why we would want to trade Bradley or Fukudome. Both have performed very well in the second half.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 26, 2009 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because we need the room.....
…..and the RBIs.
A better OBP in the second half from 2/3rss of the OF doesn’t help with problem #1 – getting runs in.
There aren’t a whole lot of other options for better RBI production.
"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez
"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 26, 2009 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who is giving you these mythical RBIs, then?
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 26, 2009 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody.
There is nobody in all of baseball who can drive in runs, especially in the OF.
Let’s just keep the status quo – not even trying to change things, and hope for the best.
"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez
"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 26, 2009 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No way we can do better than this:
MB – .259/10 HR/32 RBI
KF – .275/ 11 HR/47 RBI
Not even with more than 20 miilion dollars freed-up to look.
"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez
"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 26, 2009 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have you actually looked to see what's available on the free agent market?
Or are you just assuming that there will be something great?
Because I have and let me tell you – there isn’t.
by Wreckard on Aug 26, 2009 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup.
probably can’t find anyone who’d give us, say 60 RBIs.
Not finding anything “great” is hardly an excuse for not even trying to improve.
The league got any .400 hitting second baseman available? Cause if not, let’s just give Miles another shot.
"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez
"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 26, 2009 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
RBI's a terrible stat to try and use for comparing players.
In terms of overall value, there really isn’t anyone better available in right field than Bradley (your best options are Dye, who’s been worse than Bradley this year, and Abreu, whose defense is questionable and age is up there).
Good players will produce runs when put in good lineups. Taking someone’s RBI total in a vacuum and trying to say they’re good / bad displays an inability to understand player valuation.
by Wreckard on Aug 26, 2009 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Taking
Bradley’s numbers in a vacuum (recent OBP or year at the Texas launching pad)?
If the lineup is bad bad, why so opposed to chaning it. I find it much more likely that Bradley’s numbers were inflated by playing in Texas than that he simply never, ever had a chance to drive-in runs with the Cubs.
RBIs aren’t the only meeasure, but his BA, HRs, RBIS have ALL been bad. And RIDICULOUSLY undervaluing RBIs in an attempt to show they don’t matter is unconvincing. It’s not EVERYTHING, but it’s also not NOTHING. 32 RBIs (47 for Fuku). That’s it.
It matters.
"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez
"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 26, 2009 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bradley’s numbers were inflated by playing in Texas
Not to let facts get in the way of your rants here, but Wrigley was actually more offense-inflating last season than Arlington.
It matters.
RBI’s matter as a result, not a predictor. I’m not sure how you don’t see why using a team-dependent stat for a player on a team that as a whole is massively underperforming is pretty disingenuous.
If the lineup is bad bad, why so opposed to chaning it.
I’m opposed to making changes at positions where we cannot possibly improve. If you were suggesting we dump Soto, or do something useful at second base, that I could get behind. But you’re just saying “Dump Fukudome and Bradley!” without any regard for whether or not there are better options out there (hint: there aren’t).
by Wreckard on Aug 26, 2009 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
HRs, BA, etc....
Are not “team-dependent stats.” I suppose we can toss out both RBIs and BA, though, as that seems to be the deperate trend. Also, let’s just throw out all of the bad months while we’re at it.
’I’m opposed to making changes at positions where we cannot possibly improve."—-
Therein lies my beef. I think it would be hard not to improve on those numbers. We could probably get .260/10/32 for minimum salary. But there’s a strong religious belief in “next year” amongst Cub fandom – to some that apparently applies to Bradley and Fuku, too.
http://www.sportscity.com/mlb/2010-mlb-free-agents-by-position/
Looks like it’s not absolutely, positively, totally impossible to do better.
“Wrigley was actually more offense-inflating last season than Arlington.”—-
So Bradley performed this poorly even with the extra Wrigley Field boost? The he’s been a bigger disappointment than even his poor numbers show.
"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez
"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 26, 2009 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, that's if you expect Bradley to put up a .260/10/32 line again
Which I do not. The only one I would want over Bradley on that FA list is Jason Bay, and he’s going to cost much more than $10MM a year.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 26, 2009 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Did you expect it this year?
I’d take several players on that list over Bradley.
"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez
"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 26, 2009 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did I expect it this year?
Um, no. That doesn’t mean that this is his true talent level.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 26, 2009 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which players?
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 26, 2009 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
To Start:
Holliday
Bay
Crawford*
Guererro
Abreu
Heck, I’d take Huff.
And that’s assuming nobody will be available in ANY way except Free Agency.
"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez
"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 26, 2009 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whoops, missed Holliday
Still though, all of those guys are likely to cost more, except Abreu, who’s unlikely to repeat his numbers from this year
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 26, 2009 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No way we couldn't....
….get a better combination of players with that salary open.
heck, just investing it all in Holliday and then making Fox an everyday would be better to me.
"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez
"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 26, 2009 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holliday AND Fox?
Is this little league, where you can play 4 OF at a time?
There’s no way Holliday signs for equal or lesser money than Bradley
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 26, 2009 5:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
3 OF
Soriano, Holliday, Fox
"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez
"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 26, 2009 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who's playing CF?
Soriano?
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 26, 2009 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know that anyone is arguing we couldn't upgrade in the OF
I think people just think that we would not get great value in return for either Bradley or Dome (or both), in terms of both players and salary.
by redward on Aug 26, 2009 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually,
if you read on, that is EXACTLY what some people are arguing.
"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez
"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 26, 2009 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think
there’s a pretty big difference between saying “I think Bradley and Dome are giving us good production” and “We can’t find a replacement 2b, so let’s play Miles”.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 26, 2009 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
See above:
Are we sure Miles wan’t just bad because the lineup wasn’t good (“numbers in a vacuum.”)
He hit .300 last year – surely this year was an anomale – perhaps just bad luck.
"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez
"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 26, 2009 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d suggest that even Aaron Miles is a little taken aback at how poorly he has played. Yes, last year was a career year, but this is far worse than he’s ever done.
His current line is (sigh)
.177 .219 .238 .457
and his career numbers are
.281 .322 .355 .677
That’s a pretty significant deviation.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 26, 2009 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm attributing some of this to the "Fontenot" effect.
Like Lou could pick Fontenot’s spots last year, I assume TLR was able to keep Miles out of situations where he truly sucks.
Perhaps enlisting platoon players to go every day because of injury helps the stat line show why there were considered platoon players.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Aug 26, 2009 5:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Bradley effect.
Just stick with him another year, he’ll be fine.
"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez
"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 26, 2009 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't trade either of them right now.
Bradley is better than what he has shown, just look at his track record. In a down year he’s still hit for an .800 OPS, a figure that will likely be higher by the time the season comes to an end. I’d like to see Bradley and Fukudome both rotate between the 2 and 6 spot in the lineup; both get on base a ton and have enough pop to hit in those two slots.
If you want RBI men, I’d look to upgrade at 2B and chase Dan Uggla. As stupid as this sounds, I like the Cubs offense next year built around Lee, Ramirez, Bradley, Fukudome, Theriot and hopefully Uggla. I can’t believe I just wrote that.
by dakoose on Aug 26, 2009 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So let me understand the balance:
We can’t trade them because no one would want them,
BUT
They’re performing so well, who would ever WANT to trade them?
"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez
"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 26, 2009 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't want to trade them
period. Dome has shown the ability to improve. Bradley has too. I dunno about Uggla, specifically. If I were Lou, I’d play Baker EVERY DAY and see what he can do.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 26, 2009 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, these things are not mutually exclusive.
Let me put it a different way: you’d get significantly less value back for them in a trade (both in terms of salary relief and players returned) then you’ll get out of them by having them play.
by Wreckard on Aug 26, 2009 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The salary room....
….is value in and of itself.
"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez
"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 26, 2009 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only if there's something to buy with it.
Why don’t you tell us who you have in mind?
by redward on Aug 26, 2009 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Any of the aforementioned:
Holliday
Bay
Crawford*
Guererro
Abreu
Heck, I’d take Huff
Clearing up that kind of money (Fuku and MB) opens up some real possibilities.
"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez
"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 26, 2009 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You think you could trade Bradley
and not have to eat any of the money??? Why are you upgrading at a spot which needs no upgrade? Fukudome has been great, and been more valuable than Bay, Guerrero and Abreu. Defense counts in baseball. Abreu, Guerrero and Bay are atrocious defenders, nullifying most of their offensive output.
In your scenario, who’d play center field? If you say Fuld my head will explode.
by dakoose on Aug 26, 2009 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My head already exploded...
…with the “Fukudome has been great, and been more valuable than Bay, Guerrero and Abreu.” comment.
There really is no going-on from that difference in perspective.
"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez
"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 26, 2009 5:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where did I say that?
I’m talking about next year, not what they’ve done this year.
Also, can any of those guys play CF? No.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 26, 2009 5:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's been wrong with 'Dome?
Is it his defense in center field(He is a bajillion times better with the glove than Bay, Guerrero or Abreu)? How about his excellent on base skills? Or is it his decent pop that irks you? After taking offense, defense and position into consideration, I would say he’s been better than those 3 this year. Please present a case the other way.
by dakoose on Aug 26, 2009 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never said I would trade them,
you did. I like both of them as ballplayers. Fukudome has been excellent and as good as I hoped he could be. Bradley has underperformed but still has been useful.
by dakoose on Aug 26, 2009 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
RBI's
are more the prior batters plus/minus than the hitters.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Aug 26, 2009 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How About...
BA? (.259)
HR? (10)
BA with RISP? (.236)
That everyone else’s fault, too?
"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez
"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 26, 2009 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you are cherry picking
and MB was signed due to HIGH OBP which is not BA, RBI or BARISP. Walks count in this league
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Aug 26, 2009 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is simply untrue.
MB was not signed for his high OBP.
"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez
"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 26, 2009 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Milton Bradley was signed to play baseball well
While he hasn’t played as well as most expected, he’s played very well, particularly in the second half of the season.
by Wreckard on Aug 26, 2009 5:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but Steve Stone says he's not a left-handed run producer. /facepalm
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Aug 26, 2009 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's Former Playgirl Model Steve Stone to you, ATP
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 26, 2009 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eeew.
"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez
"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."
by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 26, 2009 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember the dumb ass fan
who charged Randy Meyers. That didnt work well for the fan
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Aug 26, 2009 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's the guy that started "It's Gonna Happen"
True story.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 26, 2009 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Point taken
Shanghai. I do recall many of those incidents, however going into the 1999 season there was a palpable excitement around the team. Much of it had to do with Wood, obviously he blew out his arm in spring training but there were some other additions. Benito Santiago was brought in to replace Servais and the rest of the lineup was otherwise completely intact. Sosa, Grace, Rodriguez, Gonzalez. Starting pitching which was very good that year was also pretty much intact , unfortunately they didn’t have quite the same year as before. Also Riggleman had to rely on Dan Serafini 70 more innings than he wanted to out of the bullpen. Also remember the feeling that captured this town between those years when Don Baylor was brought on board. Again, we’ll agree to disagree but the angry cub fan started to rear his head after the 1998 season.
by troutfishin on Aug 26, 2009 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, I can agree to disagree . . . I definitely don't agree with the recollection
And I was NOT excited about Gaetti or Santiago going in to 1999.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 26, 2009 7:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When Durocher would come out to argue a call in the 60s
trash would cover the outfield.
by the nth on Aug 26, 2009 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
um
isn’t Philadelphia one of the ruthless towns to play in. and they just won the world series. So until you show me a stat that booing is causing this team to lose, then i could careless if the crowd boo’s bradley or soriano every at bat.
by TJ3117 on Aug 26, 2009 3:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Not everyone is booing
I can’t tell you how depressing and embarrasing it was to be at last nights game but the funny thing was even when the Cubs were down by 6 or more runs the fans DID cheer the good plays, the hits and the scoring and it was NOT sarcastic. People really didwant to cheer.
I can tell the minute I got near the field everything was different from when I was in town 7 weeks ago. Just on the street the fealing was listless and depressing. I had never seen so few fans in a game in August. The behavior of a huge number of fans was just wrong but I swear many of the same people cheered the next inning. The level of frustration was beyond belief.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Aug 26, 2009 3:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Don't you think that the players, coaches and front office are frustrated too?
These people all want to win. Fans are frustrated but I’m sure our frustration as fans pales in comparison to the frustration of the people who do this as their profession. They want to succeed and sometimes fans forget that. (not implying that you fall into that category) These people didn’t get to where they are because of lack of drive and passion to succeed.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Aug 26, 2009 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Argh ...
Outside of racist/personal stuff — which is definitely out of bounds — fans have every right to boo, and I think it’s completely justified (I think Worf said this earlier) when players make repeated mental mistakes or clearly don’t hustle.
I really don’t think the behavior of fans has much to do with the success of a baseball team. The Cubs are VERY good at home this year — despite the booing. And teams like the Yankees, Phillies and Mets get booed by their home fans all the time.
The next question is, what’s the point of booing, or, what does it accomplish? Who cares? Would the Cubs rather have an empty ballpark?
by elgato on Aug 26, 2009 4:15 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
------ TheRiot Squad ------
by RightFieldSucks on Aug 26, 2009 4:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm most amused by point #8 where the OP indicates it's okay to boo opponents/umps, just not the home team.
8.) But they’re the enemy! We’re supposed to make them feel bad!
Don’t get me wrong here. Boo opponents all you want. Boo umps too, when they blow the call. That’s part of a team’s home field advantage. I just don’t see the point in booing your own team.
Seems to me like he lost any chance he had of objecting to booing on moral grounds with that argument.
Frankly, I have more respect for those who would consider the very act of booing objectionable, regardless of target. I wouldn’t agree with them, but at least they’re consistent.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Aug 26, 2009 4:29 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
That's because it's not about morals...
it’s game theory, more or less.
Booing opponents and/or umps has a chance at helping your home team. There’s actually been published research on this. Booing your own players, even if you feel you have the “right” to do it, isn’t something that will lead to an improvement in the play of your team. Or to put it more accurately, I can’t see how that would be the case.
I’m not saying the booers are fundamentally bad people or doing something wrong. I’m saying given the logic of the possible outcomes of their actions, they’re being stupid and counter-productive.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 10:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting read, thanks
Makes me wonder if the fan heckling towards umpires contributes to the militant attitude of some of them – the whole “I am the game” weight that they throw around. Possibly they do it to show the fans who’s boss?
by CaliCub on Aug 27, 2009 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Epic, epic rant
I agree with a lot of what you say. I disagree that there is never a time or place for booing the home team — when a guy doesn’t show effort, does something really boneheaded, or when disaster strikes in such a spectacular way that it just comes out of you. I’ve been at plenty of games where the fans booed for an appropriate reason, and much prefer that to casual indifference when the team fails.
Having said that, I think you are on to something here. The real problem is not the incidental booing, its the culture of booing from fans who show up to register their displeasure at particular players no matter how they perform on a given day. In recent years there have been plenty of players who were targeted like this — Milton, obviously, but Jacque Jones is another that comes to mind — and it was impossible for them to stop the boos even when they were playing well.
by Orval Overall on Aug 26, 2009 5:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Exactly right, Orval
That’s the point I was trying to make earlier.
MB is like JJ all over again.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 26, 2009 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If there was any doubt that Bradley is a cancer, here's the evidence.
He has managed to divide the Cubs fans on how to react when he plays poorly and doesn’t “earn” the money he makes.
I have a big problem with racist chants and obscenities directed at anyone, including Bradley. However, I have no quarrel with fans who express themselves by booing at those who play disappointingly bad, without insulting them. Booing is as valid an expression as cheering. They’re reactions to the play and the players on the field.
What I’m tired of is Bradley’s constant victimhood rants and this idea that the “Cubbies” are “lovable losers”, who shall not be booed but only cheered like a Little League team. Mom, where’s Milton’s trophy?
by Fraggin Judge on Aug 26, 2009 5:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
well said
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Aug 26, 2009 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes. Milton Bradley has single-handedly divided the fanbase.
What a bum.
So just to be clear, you have “no quarrel with fans who express themselves.” And in the next breath you are tired of Bradley’s “victimhood rants.”
Please provide the script Bradley should follow from now on to make you happy.
by redward on Aug 26, 2009 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the script for MB
thats easy, he should hit a HR each AB while pitching a perfect game daily
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Aug 26, 2009 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry, what?
Lemme see here: He’s a cancer because half the fanbase calls him a cancer, and the other half defends him? Isn’t that the “evidence” that there’s a DISAGREEMENT about whether he’s a cancer, not proof that he is a cancer?
by Orval Overall on Aug 26, 2009 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We were divided on MB...
long before he was booed or talked about being booed. We were divided on him the moment he was a possible signing for this team.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 26, 2009 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The answer to all the posts above is provided by kanderber below.
Bradley has divided us by constantly complaining about the fans. Whether he’s right or wrong he has created another diversion. I agree with Lou that he should ignore the fans and concentrate on playing. I add that we, as fans, should probably pay less attention to the booing as well. It’s an expression by the fans, directed at under-performance and not at the players, personally. For those who have made it personal against certain players, including Bradley, shame on them.
by Fraggin Judge on Aug 27, 2009 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Milton Bradley just CONSTANTLY bitches...
He’s the guy who would say “now can we get some damn credit?” in the post World Series winning celebration, if by some strange chance it happened while he’s here.
by kanderber on Aug 26, 2009 6:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
funny, i have the same impression of you.
by Orval Overall on Aug 26, 2009 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Umm... okay???
Unfortunately I don’t have any impression of you; guess you’re just not that memorable.
by kanderber on Aug 26, 2009 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will be at Wrigley once again this Friday...
…and if in the lineup I shall boo the living piss out of Alfonso Soriano and Milton Bradley. And I could give a rat’s ass if the charter members of the Luvable Loser Society like it or not.
Everything formerly warm and fuzzy about Cubbies is out the window. It has been out the window for several years. THANK GOD !!!!
It is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy past due to no longer tolerate losing and to DEMAND a winner. And the Cub organization and its players shall hear it more and more. Believe me, I’m not going to be the only one booing on Friday. In fact I’ll be in the distinct majority on the 3rd base side.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
by BLou on Aug 26, 2009 8:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Good for you, BLou
Want a cookie or something?
I want to win, too. But I don’t want to be an asshole about it.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 26, 2009 10:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You do that and show your
ten year old daughter how to act like an a good fan should. (In your feeble mind anyway).
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
by sue369 on Aug 27, 2009 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They led the NL in runs and wins last year
and you were STILL miserable the whole season. Saying that by being a miserable, obnoxious lout you’re in fact “DEMAND[ING]” something the organization and players want already, is just your way of excusing the fact that you are by nature a miserable, obnoxious lout.
by Orval Overall on Aug 27, 2009 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
WARNING, RANT
Take this as you will, this is just a rant I have about mainly this site and the people (and Cubs fans in general)
Why does the middle ground of the sane and rational seem to be hard to find? Don’t get me wrong, there are those of you here that are realistic and rational, but most of the people seem to fall in to one of two categories.
1, Sunshine and Puppies
2, Everything is awful, wharrgarbl!
Frankly, both sides annoy me about the same. Those who try to defend every bad thing and who are convinced that everything is perfect and well are freaking insane.
“But MrNFL, the Cubs are going to get hot and make the playoffs! You just have to believe!”
Um, I’m sorry. The odds of this team getting hot and making the playoffs are hardly existent. I’m not against optimism, but blind optimism is going to lead you off a cliff. I could remain optimistic that I’m going to win the lottery, but that optimism will get me nowhere.
And then you have the other people, “DFA Soriano, he’s a worthless bum! Milton Bradley sucks! Piniella Sucks!”
We get it, you don’t like (insert name here) You don’t need to take a dump on (insert name here) every single time you make a post. We are ALL unhappy about how the season has gone, but every post being so incredibly negative makes me feel like I’m reading a rival teams’ opinions on us.
Realistically, this post probably will get me bashed by both sides of these people. But I don’t care. I’ve been on a lot of sports fan sites (Including other SB Nation sites) and this site has by far the biggest problem with this type of thing. There are many members I respect, and I also respect Al a lot, he’s optimistic but at least realistic.
/end rant
Visit FanIQ.com for sports news, bloggings, polls, and more!
by MrNFL on Aug 26, 2009 11:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Booing
I don’t think about it that often, but I’ve always thought of booing as a primitive sound and a herd-like thing. Some people start booing and the others join in. Like the cows mooing.
When a player is being taunted, I would like to see that considered fan interference, or have those fans be treated like malicious troublemakers; assuming what is being said is malicious. I have no clue how that could ever be enforced. But to think that buying a ticket to a sporting event gives a person the right to say or shout whatever he or she wants, even though the words convey no sense of common decency, is ridiculous. Freedom of speech doesn’t mean that everybody has to just tolerate what any fool says.
by AboutTheCubs on Aug 26, 2009 11:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I never booed
a Cub player. This is my team. I am frustrated as hell, but to boo this team, no. I find taunting players, booing them and ragging on them is childish. I think for the most part this team has put good effort forward, maybe the desire and the extra push has not been there, but I can’t place myself in a situation that I would boo this team.
All of these entries may strong points. I think the strongest is 2003, and the way it ended really put a bad taste in the mouths of Cub fans, now they will not accept nothing but a World Series title, hell with the playoffs. I understand the angst. I want a championship just as bad as the next Cub fan, but but booing this team is counterproductive.
Give me consistent effort, run out ground balls, get to balls in the corner and work the freaking count once in awhile.
Hell we are all frustrated, sometimes I wish it was spring training 2010.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Aug 27, 2009 8:30 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
To all the anti-booers here
I would love for once for any of you to take in a game in NYC or Philly; any major sport, not just baseball. Then I’d like you to go tell those people they can’t boo. See where you get.
I still can’t believe all the bitching about booing. Is that what this season has come to now, whining about booing?
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Aug 27, 2009 8:45 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Interesting comparison. Pick the two cities whose fans are universally regarded as classless jerks
and say “we’re just like them.” Why don’t you just throw the Raiders fans into the mix for completeness sake, and we can all become the butt of jokes in every other city in America.
by Orval Overall on Aug 27, 2009 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not saying we're like them
I just want all the goodie-two-shoes here to take it up a notch, go to the city of brotherly love and mix it up with a Flyers fan for booing. Then have someone else send me the tape of them getting the shit beat out of them.
It’s a “pick your fight” thing. Booing is NOT bad; it’s showing some level of dissatisfaction. Throwing in “other stuff” with the booing is what is bad. There’s some do-gooders here that mix those up.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Aug 27, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice sentiment
Can’t you just arrange to go to a cock fight?
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
by vonde6 on Sep 10, 2009 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is ironic because
now that Bradley’s complaining about the booing, it just makes him more likely to get booed!!! That’s not how you deal with obnoxious fans, you don’t shut them up by going wah wah, you shut them up with hitting a ball with your bat. At them. From home plate. Complaining about booing isn’t going to make it less likely that you’re going to get booed, Mr. Bradley: in fact it makes you MORE likely to get booed. The best way to shut them up is with your play on the field and winning ballgames, because winning baseball cures everything.
"He passes it to the man...shoots it...and BOOM goes the dynamite."
by Carborius James on Aug 28, 2009 8:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree that it was counter-productive to complain about the booing.
The most likely outcome was more booing so it doesn’t make sense to do it. I think Bradley erred there.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cheering and booing are 2 sides of the same coin.
This “anti-booing” trend is another example of political correctness gone wild. If it is acceptable to cheer for a player’s successes then it should be as acceptable to boo a player’s failures. When Milton Bradley lays out and makes a great catch or hits a 3-2 fastball into the 4th row, we cheer. That is allowed and acceptable. When that same player tosses a ball into the stands after only 2 outs or strikes out badly with RISP, we should boo. That should also be allowed and acceptable. Good fans are not showing displeasure for the person but for the action. If Ty Cobb played for the Cubs and hit .400 the fans would cheer him every time he came to the plate. Hopefully, the cheering would be for Cobb’s actions on the field, not for the man since by all indications was not a pleasant person.
As long as the booing is for the ACTIONS of a player there is nothing wrong with it. When it starts to get personal, the line has been crossed. There is no place for racial, family, or violent comments or physical actions like tossing beer or batteries or charging the field. Nobody ever hears the players complain about being cheered too much. “Gee, those fans were cheering way too much today. I feel uncomfortable with all the love and admiration they show.” Every player makes mistakes from time to time. The individual mistake – throwing to the wrong base, not advancing the runner, dropping a fly ball, etc. – happen to all players at one time or another. Slumps also happen where players go 2 for 20 or strike out 8 times in a row. These things are part of the game and are accepted. Fans get upset and start to show displeasure by booing when these miscues and slumps become the norm rather than the exception. When a player who has been stellar throughout his career hits .215 and appears lazy and disinterested in the field what should the fans do?
Booing is a way to show displeasure with the actions of a player and should be allowed and accepted as such. For a fan to sit quietly as a method to show annoyance is not going to happen in a ballpark. Going to a game involves excitment, yelling, jumping up and down, and being into the game. Part of being into the game is cheering actions we approve of and booing actions we don’t.
Rant over. Flame suit on. Fire away.
Al to ESPN on Opening Day: "Hey. Guys. PSST. The 100-year thing? We know. WE KNOW. WE FREAKING KNOW. Can you guys knock it off now?"
by CubSteve on Aug 28, 2009 11:04 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I think you misunderstand my point.
I’m not saying booing is wrong, just counter-productive. If you want to help your team win, booing is more likely to hurt your cause than it is to help it. Given that why boo?
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 12:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good Post....These players are human...
Good point about people saying that they can boo because players make a lot of $$…. These players are human beings regardless of how much they make….. I think fans sometimes fail to realize that those players are human beings with feelings just like anyone else.
by byrdi68 on Aug 31, 2009 6:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
People who boo
or yell insults from the shelter of the stands wouldn’t have the cojones to say the same things one on one to a player’s face. But it’s a measure of our society and the big business that sport has become. Booing isn’t restricted to Wrigley Field by any means. It’s become more prevalent throughout all sports everywhere.
It’s fueled by alcohol, by the salary gap between athletes and ordinary mortals, by a sense of entitlement due to the high prices they paid for the seats, and in the Cubs case by raised expectations that have been bitterly dashed.
Players keep repeating the cliche that the home fans are the best in the world. I wonder how many of them really believe it.
by Clark Addison on Sep 6, 2009 10:07 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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