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How do we define disappointment? A Poll




Reading bringbackbanks' recent Fanpost "The biggest Cubs letdown, ever" got me thinking: How do we define disappointment?

Apparently, we're headed toward the close of a pretty disappointing season. Of that there is little doubt. The 2009 Chicago Cubs were projected to win 90+ games and, well, that's looking pretty doubtful right now. But will this really go down as the most disappointing season of all time - or even the present decade?

Star-divide

I mean, think about it: We've been given the merciful opportunity to come to grips with our disappointment relatively early in the regular season. Compare our sad fate to the truly tragic predicament of Cubs fans in 1969 - or, heck, the grief-inducing gutpunch we all took last October.

Granted, this team has (more than likely) let us down. Yet, as we see every baseball season, some teams come together, some don't. Last year's team came together - and still failed. That, to me, is a far greater disappointment than this year's debacle. To get your thoughts (and the reason I've created a new Fanpost rather than post this in the aforementioned one) I've added a poll. What do you think?

Poll
What defines a truly disappointing baseball season?
A team that, though projected to do well, falls well off the pace relatively early in the season (i.e., the 2009 Cubs)
41 votes
A team that plays well throughout the season but collapses down the stretch (i.e., the 1969 Cubs)
34 votes
A team that makes the playoffs but immediately crashes and burns (i.e., the 2007 & 2008 Cubs)
33 votes
A team that goes deep into the playoffs but ultimately fails (i.e., the 1984 & 2003 Cubs)
23 votes

131 votes | Poll has closed

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

Comment 41 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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I'd rather...

… have the chance to experience something great and be disappointed, than never come close and be disappointed for months or weeks at a time.

Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Aug 29, 2009 10:10 AM CDT reply actions  

Me too.

But a team that’s out of it well in advance of the playoff stretch is much less disappointing for me because I’ve had plenty of time to see it for what it is. (If that makes any sense…)

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Aug 30, 2009 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

For me...

…there was no let down as devastating as the collapse in the 1984 playoffs. The Cubs were SO GOOD that year and seemed so much better than the Padres. And then to take the first two games and need only one more to advance to the World Series…I think even the most cynical Cub fans thought that one was in the bag. I was in college at the time and hanging on every pitch…I still remember how devastated I was after Game 5…it was the kind of hurt that lingered for days afterwards.

2003 was a close second but, by that point, I was older and a more seasoned. I had started to learn that, for me anyway, the key to surviving as a lifelong Cub fan was to dial down expectations as much as possible. That’s basically the strategy I’ve employed ever since. I cried in 1984…i was shellshocked in 2003…but ever since I’ve managed to, for the most part, just chalk disappointment up to my particular cross to bear as a Cub fan.

by bluekoolaide on Aug 29, 2009 10:34 AM CDT reply actions  

When a member of the cubs top brass

Was asked in 84 why the cubs were doing so well? He replied,“because were playing way over our heads.”

by Notsnud on Aug 29, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

I dunno Daver

all of your examples are of teams that contend. I’m much more disappointed in a team that’s 20 games back by July, and never gets anywhere.

I mean, think about it: We’ve been given the merciful opportunity to come to grips with our disappointment relatively early in the regular season.

Were we? Didn’t we have first place there for a while in the last month or so?

Contend. That’s what I want. Non-contending teams disappoint me.

"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 10:43 AM CDT reply actions  

Agreed.

It sucks losing in the post season, but it’s much more disappointing to be a Nationals fan.

Change is inevitable; progress is optional.

by Devin B on Aug 29, 2009 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

That depends on a Nationals fan's expectations.

Of course, I’m not sure even the most jaded Nats fanatic expected this year’s team to lose quite this many games.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Aug 30, 2009 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, I suppose any team that fails to win the World Series...

…is – in some way, at some point – disappointing. But teams that are well down in the standings early don’t get one’s hopes up quite as far, thus, the emotional disappointment is much less.

And, yeah, this year’s team did make it to first – and stuck around the top for a good while in July. But that’s why I wrote “relatively early” – August isn’t exactly “early” in the season, but it’s still early enough to give us all plenty of time to realize we’re probably not going to win this division and, thus, avoid a ’69-esque collapse.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Aug 30, 2009 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Daver, I got some blueberry muffins still in the freezer for you for this one

AWESOME POLL .. this should be a great gauge for how Cubs fans view things in terms of definable and understandable choices.

I definitely voted for choice 3.

This year, the Cubs never really got in synch from day 1. For me, from May onward, I really didn’t follow them much .. I had a hunch things were going to go south. The injury A-Ram had somehow just burned into my head and I felt things were going to get worse. For now, I really question if they can still pull themselves together enough to limp into a footrace for the Wild Card.

It’s still possible. I haven’t given up.

Injuries, slumps, drama, etc. have plagued the Cubs enough this year unlike anything in the past two year .. they weren’t dramatic and jarring enough like the Barrett-Z issue. It was like a steady drip-drip-drip until the the tanks drained. The holes are still needing to be plugged and the fuel injection system is clogging sporadically. For me, the absolutely unbelievable meltdowns of the 84 and 03 ones will be etched into my mind as the most haunting for this old Cubs fan. No question. But 07 and 08 are almost as equally baffling .. and almost as maddening.

Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we will go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..

coda

ELO, 1975

by cubnational on Aug 29, 2009 10:43 AM CDT reply actions  

Thanks! From freezer to microwave to plate in 3 quick minutes!

And I voted for No. 3, too. Last year’s team was, without a doubt, the biggest disappointment of my life thus far. (I was only 14 in 1984 so I didn’t quite grasp what a letdown that must’ve been to those paying closer attention.)

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Aug 30, 2009 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is a really good question

I guess the honest answer is that they’re all disappointing to various degrees. Does it matter if you die by poisoning or gunshot or knife?

Speaking of which, hold a gun to my head and I’d pick No. 1. It’s always good to have meaningful games to watch every day for 5-6 months.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 29, 2009 12:04 PM CDT reply actions  

Yes, it is a good question.

I’m waiting to see how 2009 turns out before answering this one.

"Fasten your seatbelts"-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Aug 29, 2009 12:38 PM CDT reply actions  

I picked the first choice.

My reasoning is that a team must first be either projected to do well or actually doing well for there to be a disappointment. Having a crap team that basically gives you no hope for the year cannot be disappointing because you have no expectations.

I would much rather go through fifty straight years like 2008 because, excluding those three horrific days in October, last year was a carnival ride of giddy expectation and stunning comebacks that we as Cubs fans haven’t seen in decades. I had a blast watching them, and moments from that season are branded on my brain. Yes, the goal is to win a championship, but unless you’re the one team that does it, it’s gonna end badly.

The best thing is for it to be fun while it lasted. Nothing is permanent. Neither this season, nor the next, nor the one after that. To come into 2009 with a team that I truly felt good about and just watch fate drop turd after turd on us is, to me at least, the biggest of disappointments, because I have to wait until next February to get stoked up again. At least October is far closer to February than August is.

"Was you ever punched in the face five hundred times a night? It stings after a while." ~Rocky Balboa

by Goodie1969 on Aug 29, 2009 1:50 PM CDT reply actions  

I see what you mean...

…and I, too, would rather suffer through multiple ‘08s than ’06s. But I still find an ’08 season more disappointing than this one because, as we’ll likely see, projections can be out- or underperformed. (If I’m not mistaken, the Cards are outperforming their projections and the Cubs are underperforming theirs.) “They still gotta play the games,” as the cliche goes.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Aug 30, 2009 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why must we have two fan

post with the take of ’What’s more miserable?"

I mean, you can write whatever, but…….do you see what I’m getting at?

Must we all wallow in misery? I know this season stinks, as many have, but……come on….

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Aug 29, 2009 1:50 PM CDT reply actions  

I get it, SDSJM

I think it’s just part of the Cubbie pathology, sad to say. Even I dip into it occasionally.

Really, “baseball” and “miserable” are mutually exclusive, aren’t they?

by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 29, 2009 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes.

Sometimes we just have to back away…..there are worse teams to follow.

See:

Detroit Lions

Pittsburgh Pirates

LA Clippers.

We just get more ink and have colorful ‘curses.’

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Aug 29, 2009 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

See, that's the thing, SDSJM...

…I’m not wallowing in misery. I’m actually trying to point out why this season isn’t as bad as everyone is making it out to be. The 2009 Cubs don’t appear to have gelled as a team – injuries, down years, bad luck are all conspiring to keep it from being successful. So look on the bright side: At least our hopes aren’t being risen to historic levels and dashed to pieces like they were last year. I mean, even if this year’s team miraculously wins the Wild Card, my expectations in the post-season will be markedly lower than last year’s.

(Oh, and as I pointed out – I wanted to poll BCB readers on this specific issue, and I couldn’t do that in a comment in bringbackbanks Fanpost.)

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Aug 30, 2009 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

E. All of the above

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Aug 29, 2009 1:54 PM CDT reply actions  

#4 and it wasn't even close for me

it took me months to finally let ’84 and moreso ’03 go in the rear-view mirror.

Living in San Diego, those bastards bring up ’84 whenever they can. It still pisses me off. Imagine wanting to celebrate an NL pennant? What a joke. How about celebrate getting boat-raced in the WS? I bet the Red Sox celebrate the 75 WS team that lost to Cincy every opportunity, right? NOT!

‘03 was the worst. I didn’t even care about 2004 until around All Star break time and then that team ruined it for me. Bunch of pansies that team was. I will never forgive Gonzalez for failing to make a routine play that he did time-after-time the entire year. That is the classic case of choking.

I think this poll is predisposed to the age of the poster as well.

by socalbob on Aug 29, 2009 1:54 PM CDT reply actions  

Experiencing the season

The Cubs cause disappointment as it applies to a season. Unless they win 11 postseason games they will do that. During the season whenever it hits home that they aren’t going to win a WS title, that is the most disappointing time. This year it was when the regular season was about 1/3 over. Last year it was near the end of the regular season.

The leagues were split into divisions after more teams were added, and then the wildcard was added. But if you assume that everything about winning back then was the same, then under today’s rules most of the teams managed by Leo Durocher would have made it to postseason.

by AboutTheCubs on Aug 29, 2009 3:42 PM CDT reply actions  

First of all.. .an EXCELLENT post...

It’s good thinkin’ and that fact that all 4 answers are getting good votes shows how good a poll it is.

It’s tough to choose, but I voted " * A team that goes deep into the playoffs but ultimately fails (i.e., the 1984 & 2003 Cubs)" But not only because of the deep run, but because of the specific way these 2 teams lost during their deep run.

Heartbreaking.

I haz comedy show on Fridays. Come out and support a fellow Cubs fan? If you do, I'll see what I can do about Aaron Miles: Hot Beans Delivers

by digitalbenjamin on Aug 29, 2009 5:30 PM CDT reply actions  

Thanks!

And, yeah, deep runs into the playoffs are definitely disappointing – just ask Tampa Bay Ray fans. But I guess it depends on one’s expectations going in. I definitely would’ve been disappointed last year if the Cubs had made it to the World Series and lost, but somehow I would’ve been less disappointed than I was seeing them get smoked in the NLDS. At least they would’ve proven their capacity to play in the postseason. That’s something.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Aug 30, 2009 5:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Essentially, this is the problem
The 2009 Chicago Cubs were projected to win 90+ games and, well, that’s looking pretty doubtful right now.

It’s the word ‘Projected.’

It’s a meaningless word. It has no basis in reality.

It’s like Bear fans who say this:

“We were 9-7 with Kyle orton. We should be at least a couple of games better with Cutler.”

I’m a Bear fan and would never make a statement like that.

In theory yes. On paper probably.
On the field in 2009? Pretty much meaningless.

Cutler could play like John Elway at his best, but things like bad defense, injuries and so on could negate much of what he does.

Or Cutler could struggle.

Projections are pretty useless. All that matters is how a team plays on the field.

by GeoMak on Aug 29, 2009 8:39 PM CDT reply actions  

You beat me to it.

If you like numbers i guess the preseason predictions mean something, but I don’t pay much attention to them…or to what the critics say about a movie. They both have about the same value. They can both set you up for disappointment and they can both be wrong in either direction.
 I’m never disappointed because a team didn’t do what they were predicted to do. Predictions don’t account for anything other than what the numbers say…no trades, no injuries, no slumps, funks, chemistry, FAN INVOLVEMENT, etc.

So that eliminates option#1 for me.
 Therefore, I have to vote for #2……because it’s the only remaining option that has a team not making the playoffs at all.

Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.

by Dave Pendleton on Aug 30, 2009 12:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

I need a sabermagician to confirm this...

…but I believe Baseball Prospectus’s preseason projections do account for slumps and, to a certain extent, injuries. Also, I’m really not sure how FAN INVOLVEMENT has any measurable effect on a team’s winning record. Certainly the Florida Marlins wouldn’t be so dang competitive every year if that were the case.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Aug 30, 2009 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

If you find out let me know, I'll be enlightened.

I threw in the fan involvement because I was having a hard time spelling fan interference, i was getting really tired at that point. I was referring to the incidents like what happened to you guys during the playoffs. do they consider that kind of stuff in predictions? Man, talk about something causing disappointment. It was like the Denkenger call against St Louis, maybe worse.
 Please excuse my spelling. I use to be good at it but not so much anymore.

Baseball first, teams second, players third, agents last.

by Dave Pendleton on Aug 30, 2009 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Honestly, plays involving fan interference...

…occur so infrequently that I really don’t think they have any significant bearing on a team’s overall success.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Aug 31, 2009 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well, I disagree to a certain extent.

Preseason projections have basis in reality – a lot of thought and calculations involving previous real-world results go into them. (I’m referring mainly to the Baseball Prospectus projections – I believe those are the ones that pegged the Cubs to win 90+. I should probably do some research and verify this but…eh…)

Of course, as they say in the investment world, past performance is no guarantee of future results. And we’ve certainly seen that this season.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Aug 30, 2009 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

You somewhat contradict yourself

and admit it with this comment:

Of course, as they say in the investment world, past performance is no guarantee of future results. And we’ve certainly seen that this season.

I’m not saying that a lot of thought doesn’t go into it.

But it doesn’t matter. All that matters is what happens on the field.

Tommy Lasorda had his rule of ‘thirds.’ 162 game season divided by three = (3) 54 game sets.

Throughout the history of baselball, virtually every team will win at least 54 games and lose at least 54 games. There are exceptions, of course, like the 2001 Mariners (116-46).

That much (at least 54-54) is almost certain. Everything else is really up in the air.

Injuries, slumps, streaks, breaks (good/bad) and so on help shape the season’s outcome.

The biggest problem comes with a season like this, the 2009 season. The Cubs won 97 games in 2008. There were no obvious moves that clearly weakened the team, I would think most people would say. Therefore people go into the 2009 season believing the Cubs to be just as good as they were in 2008 (or only slightly better or worse).

That becomes the ‘baseline expectation’ and as Not Bruce Froemming points out below:

It would have been foolhardy to expect it to (2008) happen again one year later.

And yet, that’s almost exactly what happens.

Fans almost EXPECT it to happen again. Hence, the disppointment.

by GeoMak on Aug 30, 2009 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

I thought it was...

…every team wins 60 games, every team loses 60, it’s what you do with the other 42 that matters. In any case,I think projections do matter because they help many of us shape our initial expectations of a team, which can affect how disappointed we are (or should be) in one team vs. another. Of course, some of us are better at adjusting those expectations as the season goes along than others. Oh, and:

There were no obvious moves that clearly weakened the team, I would think most people would say.

Ha, I’d suggest going over the last six to eight months worth of BCB threads and re-evaluating that statement.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Aug 30, 2009 8:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's 54

A):

There were no obvious moves that clearly weakened the team, I would think most people would say.

What? DeRosa? Wood? Cedeno? OK. I guess. I would disagree. The core of the team is basically the same. All the starters back. Etc. All teams make some roster moves. The Cubs were no different.

B:

In any case,I think projections do matter because they help many of us shape our initial expectations of a team,

And that, to me is the problem. Who makes these ‘projections?’ Essentially, they are just educated guesses.

Perhaps all would be better served WITHOUT any preconceived ideas as to how the team is going to play . . . BEFORE they play even one regular season game.

by GeoMak on Aug 30, 2009 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, the one obvious move that weakened the team from my perspective...

…was Hendry’s failure to construct a roster with an adequate backup for third base and shortstop. The 3B thing has been beaten to death, but I’d recommend everyone look at Theriot’s offensive numbers over the last 28 days. It’s entirely possible another season of playing almost everyday is catching up to him.

And, yeah, that’s an interesting point about Cubs fans being better served by having no preconceived notion of how a season will play out – kinda like going to a movie having no idea what it’s about. But, let’s be honest, most all of us are information junkies and that’s never going to happen.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Aug 31, 2009 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well

They won 97 games in 2008 and were essentially the same same in 2009. It’s not like they gutted the roster or something. That was my point.

As far as going to see a movie, well, here’s the flaw with your ‘logic’ with that.

A movie is a one day experience. Before one goes to see a movie, they can read up and find out everything about it . . . including how it ends!

Not so in baseball. All the reading and research one does is, in the end, mere speculation.

Beyond that, the baseball season is over half a year long.
Fans basically have a lot more invested in a baseball season than in a movie.

The bottom line is this: A that information and all of those projections are fine . . . and essentially, like I said, meaningless.

There’s no way to account for a long injury to Ramirez. A guy like Soto doing an ‘about-face’ and so on and so forth.

And that, like I said is the problem.

Argue this all you want. It doesn’t mattter to me, as I know I’m correct.

It’s REAL easy to be real disappointed using this kind of logic:

“We won 97 games last season. WE are basically still the same team that won 97 games. We lost Wood and DeRosa but Marmol’s ready to replace Wood and we brought in a left-handed bat with Bradley, something we really needed.”

“We should be as good in 2009 as we were in 2008.”

OK. Except all of that ‘talk’ really doesn’t matter, once you start playing the games.

by GeoMak on Aug 31, 2009 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Excellent post, but I think you're missing a key ingredient

What were expectations going in?

In 1998, did we really expect a Wild Card run? Did we really think we’d see a 20k game, or 66 homers? Or a 163rd game end in a Cubs victory?

I mean, I wish we hadn’t been swept by the Braves, but how can you complain?

2007 didn’t disappoint me nearly as 2008 for that reason and neither disappointed me as much as 2004.

How high your hopes are have a direct correlation to how far you fall when they are taken away.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Aug 29, 2009 10:19 PM CDT reply actions  

Right
How high your hopes are have a direct correlation to how far you fall when they are taken away.

There used to be a show on TV called Mad TV.

They did a spoof on the Dating Service “Great Expectations.”

Their spoof was titled “Lowered Expectations.”

That should be the motto for Cub Fans.

No as in “We’re going to suck this year.” Not that. But also not "Hey we should win ‘X’ number of games and make/win the playoffs.

by GeoMak on Aug 29, 2009 10:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think that what happened in 2008

contributed to that. The regular season seemed like such a cakewalk, particularly after the “Massacre in Milwaukee” in late July, that a lot of people thought it would be just as easy this time.

Even though I felt this was a very good team, I never got the sense that it would be as "easy " as it was in 2008. That was a very special regular season, the best one of my lifetime. Stuff happened last year that I’ve never seen happen to a Cubs team.

It would have been foolhardy to expect it to happen again one year later.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 30, 2009 2:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's a good point...

…but expectations are kind of what I was trying to get at when I pointed out that we’re getting plenty of time to accept the fact that this year’s team probably isn’t going to get the job done (unless it somehow pulls together and snags the Wild Card.) Basically, we’ve been granted ample opportunity to adjust our expectations accordingly. Last year, we were granted no such mercy.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Aug 30, 2009 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

dissapointment

101 years without a world series and having to hear about it every friggin day

by NOMAR on Aug 30, 2009 7:58 AM CDT reply actions  

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