Foxy Day: Jake Fox's Slam, 5 RBI Lead Cubs To 11-4 Blowout Of Mets
All the Cubs can do each day is exactly what they did this afternoon -- come out, swing the bats, come from behind if necessary, make plays in the field... and who knows what might happen in the future?
Jake Fox hit a grand slam and drove in five runs to lead the Cubs to an 11-4 win over the Mets, and now the Cubs have a nice little four-out-of-six run going.
Whatever you think of Fox playing in the field -- and he's obviously only adequate at any of his defensive positions, and wouldn't have come near the nice running catch Sam Fuld made in the 8th after replacing him -- the man can hit, and is a fine player to have on a major league bench. Between Iowa and the Cubs this season, Fox now has 324 at-bats. In those AB, he has combined for 24 doubles, 27 HR and 92 RBI, while hitting .355/.430/.701. Most impressive, and though he won't come close to being voted Rookie of the Year, I could see giving him a third-place vote.
He'll probably play left field again tomorrow, as Lou reported in his postgame press conference that Alfonso Soriano's MRI showed only "inflammation" in his knee, no major damage, and he'll be examined tomorrow and possibly get a "shot" (I suppose Lou meant cortisone, if they still do that), and perhaps Soriano will be available by Monday.
In the meantime, Fox is more than a capable fill-in.
It started out as one of those games that you're glad you're the home team and have the last at-bat; Ryan Dempster got himself in trouble with a walk and a pair of hits leading to two runs in the first inning, and though the Cubs took the lead in the third (thanks in part to Dempster getting the walk back as a hitter), he gave it right back in the fourth. Dempster appeared to be trying to throw as hard as the wind was blowing today; he didn't have good command, though he did register seven strikeouts. The Cubs got a break in what could have been a Mets blowout inning in that fourth; Fernando Tatis tried to score with nobody out and two runs already in when a throw appeared to get away, but Mike Fontenot's relay cut him down. After that Dempster settled down and allowed only two more baserunners, while the offense was bailing him out in the fifth.
Nice game today for Milton Bradley, who had hits in his first three at-bats (making seven straight plate appearances he had reached base, including the four yesterday), and blasted a RBI double off the wall in the third, scoring Dempster. There were some scattered boos early in the game when Bradley was announced, but his play today turned those into cheers by the time he came up and walked in the eighth. I won't boo Bradley -- in fact, I hope he has a great September, because that would truly help the team. Aramis Ramirez also had a nice day today, with a pair of hits and RBI and a nice snag of a hot line drive by Angel Pagan. And Koyie Hill chipped in with two hits, including a RBI double; Hill's triple-slash numbers of .245/.329/.347 aren't great, but they are at least the equal of Geovany Soto's (.215/.322/.377). For now, I think Hill deserves the bulk of the playing time; Soto can get into shape and work hard and win the job back next spring.
Aaron Heilman came in and threw two scoreless innings in what might be his last appearance as a Cub. It was a bit surprising that Lou didn't leave him in to finish the game and get a save, but Sean Marshall hadn't thrown since Tuesday, so I can actually understand Lou's motivation to get Marshall an inning of work.
It was chilly today, and you could see the effects of the strong west-northwest wind in the upper deck seats. The LF upper deck, which was blocked from the wind, stayed full most of the game, but the RF upper deck, fully exposed, emptied out after the seventh inning stretch.
It was 64 degrees at game time and never got much warmer. 64 degrees is the average high temperature in Chicago on October 16. Let's hope this good Cubs play of the last two days keeps up and we have the chance to experience baseball at Wrigley Field on and after that date. Keep the faith.
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408 comments
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Comments
First!
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...
by Curtain Jerker on Aug 29, 2009 6:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't care what place we're in
It’s always fun seeing the Cubs tee off against the Mets!
by ak123 on Aug 29, 2009 6:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Al, you made the New York Times
That article someone mentioned in one of the gameday threads got picked up by the Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/30/sports/baseball/30santo.html?ref=baseball
by Blue Heron on Aug 29, 2009 6:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Cool!
I talked to that AP reporter early last week. Nice article about Santo.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Aug 29, 2009 6:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was on Sports Illustrated's web site too
Blogger and all-around good guy Rick Kaempfer was also quoted.
by ChipSet on Aug 29, 2009 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know Rick.
Where does he blog?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Aug 29, 2009 7:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
http://rickkaempfer.blogspot.com/
Theriot is not clutch, he's double clutch!
by jesus christos on Aug 29, 2009 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a bit of a Cubs-themed website...
Isn’t it.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Aug 29, 2009 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
our paper picked it up for tomorrow
except i talked to the guy designing that page and asked him to put the name of the web site in.
by burncruisin on Aug 30, 2009 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Al Yellon...
…who also has a Cubs-themed Web site [at www.bleedcubbieblue.com]…"
??
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 30, 2009 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no
its the Dubuque Telegraph Herald. I asked them to make it: Al Yellon, who runs bleedcubbieclue.com, a Cubs-centric Web site.
by burncruisin on Aug 30, 2009 12:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gotcha
FanShot a link to it tomorrow?
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 30, 2009 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not sure that worth a fanshot
how about if i just link it here in reply to you?
by burncruisin on Aug 30, 2009 12:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Works for me :)
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 30, 2009 12:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was a great birthday present!
Visit bloggingthebracket.com, SBNation's bracketology/hoops rambling site!
by Chris Dobbertean on Aug 29, 2009 6:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Happy Birthday!
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
by sue369 on Aug 29, 2009 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
we are still in this thing...
with 5 weeks left, 6.5 back…this isnt over
"God watches over drunks and third baseman."- Leo Durocher
by BelieveinBlue2314 on Aug 29, 2009 6:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Make that 5.5 back
after the Giants smack the Rockies tonight. If the Cubs keep the bats hot, they have good enough pitching to win a LOT of games in September. Let’s win these last two games in August first…
Get 'em on, Get 'em over, Get 'em in!
by DKT on Aug 29, 2009 7:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
joey gathright has been traded to boston
Theriot is not clutch, he's double clutch!
by jesus christos on Aug 29, 2009 7:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think he puts them over the top
In all seriousness…isn’t Ellsbury hurt?
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...
by Curtain Jerker on Aug 29, 2009 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he was hurt but hes played in the past 2 games
Theriot is not clutch, he's double clutch!
by jesus christos on Aug 29, 2009 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you pull Harden back from waivers
if they win tomorrow, and the Rockies lose one of the next two…5.5 back is not insurmountable, especially with the Cubs’ schedule the rest of the way.
Scott Bora$ is satan.
by Canadian Cubs Fan on Aug 29, 2009 7:10 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd agree...
If it was just the Rockies. But there’s still SF, FL, and ATL.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Aug 29, 2009 8:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Cubs have four games left with the Giants.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Aug 29, 2009 8:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In San Francisco.
Hopefully pitching match-ups will be favourable during that wraparound series. If they are, the Cubs shouldn’t have a problem knocking in runs, and maintaining that lead against the Giants’ anemic offense. Let’s not forget that Brian Wilson has a lot of shades of Gregg — he gets whacked around a lot.
I would like somebody to tell me though, how a guy from Venezuela gets a nickname of “Big Panda.”
Rickey has spoken. Keep the Athletics in Bump City.
by LeSaboteur on Aug 29, 2009 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wikipedia is your friend
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pablo_Sandoval:
On defense, the Giants have used [Sandoval] as a starting third baseman, first baseman, and, for a short period, as a catcher for pitcher Barry Zito, who gave Sandoval the nickname Kung Fu Panda. He received the nickname after a play on September 19, 2008, where he scored a run against the Los Angeles Dodgers by jumping over the tag of catcher Danny Ardoin, scoring from second base on a single by Bengie Molina.
See also: Here.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 29, 2009 10:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rockies & Giants...
…have this weekend series, and then three more games back in Denver. Don’t forget LA, either; all three teams will be beating up on each other, and may allow the Cubs to sneak in. While not nearly as fun as controlling our own destiny, I’d still take that.
5.5 isn’t that much ground to make up.
Rickey has spoken. Keep the Athletics in Bump City.
by LeSaboteur on Aug 29, 2009 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Al, question:
Several of us were talking about this in the game threads.
What was going on in the bleacher section where everyone was wearing green shirts? Jake Fox’s grand slam landed in that group.
Game, set, match, life!
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Aug 29, 2009 7:11 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Pat and Ron talked about this
it’s some kind of group memorializing.. a doctor or something? Harry somebody. They’re raising money for research into juvenile leukemmia.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's the...
…. Henry Schueler Foundation. They do this every year for fundraising purposes.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Aug 29, 2009 7:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't get into the gamethreads today
but the parts I heard on the radio were good. We need to win tomorrow.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 7:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You weren't alone
Other than Buck/McCarver complaints, the only real nastiness was when Demp gave up the lead in the 4th. The strong 5th inning turned attitudes around nicely, though.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 29, 2009 7:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd say
it was one of the better game threads of the year.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 29, 2009 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How bad is Fox in Left field
Hey Al! You have a good seat for this so who is the better left fielder right now Fox or Soriano (before the cortisone injection). I’d like your assessment. I’m starting to think that Sori is the capable replacement for Fox.
by Krug on Aug 29, 2009 7:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Fox isn't a very good outfielder.
There’s no way I’d want him out there every day, and once you get to the 7th inning with a lead you have to get him out of there for Sam Fuld. (Or, Reed Johnson once he comes back.)
But the man can hit.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Aug 29, 2009 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like Fox
is every bit as good as Sori defensively.
Hey Lou, we're long overdue.
by deadcatbounce on Aug 29, 2009 8:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So what?
That’s not the question… the question is whether Soriano is good enough to justify benching Fox for him for the first 7 innings of a game. Sure, Fuld is superior and probably good enough offensively to make that switch in the later innings. But I’m not seeing how Soriano when not healthy or at the top of his game offensively is a defensible option regardless of his contract.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Aug 29, 2009 8:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a good question and...
… you’re right, the health is clearly the issue right now. Let’s see how the latest medical exam goes.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Aug 29, 2009 8:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and...
the fact that Soriano has never been a plus in leftfield anyway. Good arm, but fundamentally unsound. I don’t expect much more from Jake, if we’re contrasting two healthy options, but offensively there’s no contest… right now.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Aug 29, 2009 8:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I realize that I sound something like a broken record
when it comes to Alfonso, but Soriano is a plus outfielder career-wise. Career, in the outfield, with 514 games, Soriano has a 21.5 UZR.
THIS YEAR, he has struggled mightily. Absolutely. But last year, and the year before, especially, he’s a plus defender.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and i think his struggles this year
are due to injury. He just hasn’t looked himself this year, either in the field or at the plate.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 29, 2009 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
at least he finally had the MRI this morning. All they found was swelling. Possibly, he’ll get a cortisone shot.
Why the hell didn’t they do that in the first week of freakin’ July?
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i know, tell me about it!
and the thing is, we all seemed to mention him hobbling around and grimacing.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 29, 2009 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
who knows
Theriot is not clutch, he's double clutch!
by jesus christos on Aug 29, 2009 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
but what does last year, and the year before, have to do with this year?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Aug 29, 2009 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
just
making sure the record is straight, and understood.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what managers are for
to play the guys that are actually hitting the ball and driving in runs. Lou has to figure out a way to get Fuld and Fox in there because Sori is a big liability in LF and at bat. Yes he hit a GWHR yesterday, thank you very much. Where was he the other 27 days of August?
If you have a guy raking or semi-raking and another who can’t catch or hasn’t hit a lick for 3 frigging months the defense be damned! We need runs, damnit! The pitching has carried this team all year. Play Fox and figure out how to get Fuld or someone in LF. Sori’s not going to get any better this year, he’s been hobbling since April.
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
by BigJohnAZ on Aug 29, 2009 11:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing is Soriano has been terrible this year in LF. I don't think Fox could be any worse.
Soriano has something up with that knee, best to DL him and just run Fox out there.
Fox and Soriano are both major liabilities in the outfield, but one can hit and one can’t right now, you go with the guy that is hitting. He’s not the long term solution. I still have some faith that Soriano can come back and be decent if he’s healthy next year, but Fox is not the solution in LF for the future.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 11:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't want to say how poor Sori was in the field
that’s been argued and debated ad infinitum in about 206 posts lol. Personally, I think he’s horrible out there. There, I’ve said it lol
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
by BigJohnAZ on Aug 29, 2009 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's an objective fact that he's been bad in the field this year
You would not be correct saying that he is a bad LF overall(bad outfielder, I’ll let that slide as he probably couldn’t play Right or Center very well). He has been a very, very good LF since he moved there with the Nationals.
Also Shawn, does UZR take into account when runners don’t run on an outfielder? I never quite figured that part out.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 30, 2009 12:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sori in CF
I just threw up in my mouth a little.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 30, 2009 12:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This doesn't mean anything, but I found it humourous
That in a really, really small sample size Soriano had a decent UZR in CF. he’s not any good in center probably, but he was off to a decent start in 2007.
Again this means nothing I just get a little chuckle and I just saw that while I was looking up other stuff on Soriano’s fangraphs page.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 30, 2009 12:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All stats have their limitations
UZR’s is that it needs a large sample size to be an accurate predictor of value. Outfielders see fewer plays than infielders, and need a correspondingly larger sample size to normalize their UZR. Sure, you can run a player’s UZR in CF based on 15 plays, but to use that to predict anything would be foolhardy at the very least.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 30, 2009 12:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right,
Which is why I said this:
This doesn’t mean anything
and this
Again this means nothing
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 30, 2009 12:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Skimming bites me in the rear again
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 30, 2009 4:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's no problem
I do that all the time as well as replying to the wrong message. I’m very good at the last one.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 30, 2009 4:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This year I really don't care about his career stats in LF
I see what I see on the field and I don’t like it. He will never be Billy Williams but you can live with him in LF when he’s hitting. He quit hitting in mid May. Enough of waiting for one of his hot streaks. Do you know how many games we have lost because of that? We can’t calculate it, most likely, but I think you get my meaning.
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
by BigJohnAZ on Aug 30, 2009 12:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't want to get into this again.
But your eyes aren’t what you should be trusting to evaluate defense unless you are scout. To which I would ask, why are you on this site?
Anyways he’s cost the team about (-8.7 UZR) -8.7 runs this season in the field so that’s almost a win but not quite. (.87 of a win).
You can calculate it with some degree of accuracy. It’s not the exact, but it’s pretty damn good.
Overall he’s cost the team about half a win this season. That’s terrible. A good WAR would be 2 or something.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 30, 2009 12:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fine. I've never looked at UZR, WAR or anything like those.
And if you say he’s cost the Cubs a half a win, I have to take the numbers word for it. But in that vein, for people to say that Fox would be more of a liability is ok, too. Maybe Sori doesn’t cost the team that badly as a defender, ok. But his AB’s have, along with others. I don’t care if Sori is slightly better than another in LF, if the other guy is driving in runs, I’ll roll the dice with the defense for the sake of runs at this point and hope we actually get some leads so I can play my defensive guys.
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
by BigJohnAZ on Aug 30, 2009 12:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's fine, but you don't even need to go to the offense vs. defense thing
Fox is the right player to play right now and Soriano needs to be on the DL.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 30, 2009 12:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frigging Manny is a butcher in LF but he hits a ton. Defense be damned!
It’s not like the Cubs have Murderer’s Row, they need every hit and run they can. If Soto and others were playing at last year’s numbers, NBD. But they aren’t and haven’t all year. You have to go with the hot hand when it’s hot, period.
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
by BigJohnAZ on Aug 30, 2009 12:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know what happens when the #1 line isn't scoring in hockey?
They get shuffled or moved to #2 or #3 within a few games, not 2/3 of a season.
Why do managers like Lou and Dusty play guys that are scuffling for weeks on end and not sit them or move them down and get the guys hitting where they can do damage?
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
by BigJohnAZ on Aug 30, 2009 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know I doubt Ovie's, Crosby, Toews, Malkin, or Zetterburg
Are getting moved down a line in 2 or 3 games. But the thing in Hockey is even teh second line and third line plays a lot. What’s an average shift? 45 seconds- 2 minutes at the longest? Very different sport, not really applicable.
The difference between not starting in hockey and not starting in baseball is huge.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 30, 2009 12:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hockey lines and defensive pairings are *far* more about chemistry than baseball lineups
The only thing that really compares in baseball is a double-play combo or pitcher who has a personal catcher.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 30, 2009 12:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was trying to make a point that
when you aren’t scoring, you have to do something. Waiting and hoping for a guy to turn it around over 2 weeks in a long baseball season is normal, but 3 months? C’mon now.
Ok, I overstated that players get moved down in lines like that, but the coaches do shuffle lines constantly, and are always trying to get the right combination. Sure, they have to deal with on ice matchups, but so does a baseball manager when he has to match up with a pitcher. IDK, I was simply trying to point out that Lou has given a few players more than enough time to get going. If it’s due to injury then he’s got to be the guy to decide sit or play more intelligently or quickly.
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
by BigJohnAZ on Aug 30, 2009 12:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All I know is
Milton Bradley has to got be the hottest Cubs batter right now.
Saturday
3-4 with 1 RBI, 1 BB, 2 runs scored
Friday
3-3 with 1 BB, 2 runs scored
Thursday
0-5 (blah)
Wednesday
1-4 with 3 RBI, 1 BB, 2 runs scored
Tuesday
4-4 with 1 RBI, 1 BB, 2 runs scored
Monday
Day Off
Sunday
0-1 (didn’t start)
That’s 11 for 21. That’s an over .500 batting average, my friends.
For the past 7 days, his OPS is 1.491. For the last 14, it’s .960. And I’m pretty sure those numbers from Baseball-reference.com doesn’t cover today yet. His OBP for the past week is .550, his SLG .941!!!!!
And some of you guys want to trade him?
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 7:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
He's thriving in the 2nd spot
And it suits him quite well. Still wish Dome was leading off, but MB seems to have cemented his place in the order.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 29, 2009 7:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hed be even better in the leadoff spot
but that might be my antiFPSM side talking
Theriot is not clutch, he's double clutch!
by jesus christos on Aug 29, 2009 8:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I still want to trade him.
But I hope he keeps hitting this way the rest of the season.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Aug 29, 2009 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Milton Bradley leads the team
in OBP, yet you still want to trade him? That makes no sense whatsoever.
by Neifi Puppy on Aug 29, 2009 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
He leads the team in distractions, too.
Let’s see: .398 OBP; Ramirez at .391, Fukudome at .390. Not much of a difference there, is there?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Aug 29, 2009 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Al you're representing that as a fact.
When in fact the “leading team in distractions” comment is an opinion. You could say leading team in public outbursts and I would agree.
Alright, lets make this argument more interesting. I’ll even grant you that it’s a fact that he leads the team in distractions, do you have any evidence that these distractions have a negative effect besides some psuedo-psychological nebulous claim about clubhouse chemistry? Because I could claim that his competitive fire is one of the few positive clubhouse things on the team this year and, as far as I know we both have a chance of being right.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 8:58 PM CDT up reply actions 9 recs
I just don't think you can look at the number of teams
he’s played on over the last few years, and say that his attitude, and the fact that despite putting up decent to great numbers, the teams rarely want him back for a second season.
The last time Bradley played for the same team two straight years was 2002, and 2003
by Illicat on Aug 29, 2009 9:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your using circumstantial evidence to prove your point.
Just because teams did get rid of him does not mean it actually had an effect on play. I’d guess that the reason most teams didn’t want him was because of injury history not his attitude.
You could, but you’re not providing any evidence on to support your claim. At the point where this Clubhouse Chemistry stuff is a complete unknown I’ll take the objective data that says he’s worth keeping.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you'd really pay 10 mil for a .260 average
and 35 rbis? I hope you’re not one that was calling for Kosuke’s deportation last year, because that would be quite contradictory.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 29, 2009 9:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't calling for Kosuke's deportation
And again is his the 70s where we measure value by avg and rbi. He’s been worth 6.5 Million dollars this year. That is pretty damn close to the truth given the strength of the statistic Wins Above Replacement. It’s not capturing his value with 100% accuracy, but it’s not a stretch at all to say 95%+.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=369&position=OF#value
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
*Is this the 70s?
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Both explanations the injury one and the attitude one are completely unsupported
and could be equally true. There’s no point in making personal decisions with a type of evidence (this nebulous attitude stuff) where such a large number of things have an equal chance of being true.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, at least one injury
was a direct result of the attitude. so, I tend to think that goes hand in hand.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 29, 2009 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no
one injury was the result of being flung to the ground by his manager.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and why did that even occur, drew?
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 29, 2009 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is also irrelevant
Getting hurt arguing is one of the rarest things ever.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's not irrelevant.
that lends to my argument of him being a distraction.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 29, 2009 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's also irrelevant because your making one incident
into a trend.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's 2x irrelevant
One that’s not the point. The point is I could claim that Milton Bradley’s in ability to get clutch RBIs are the reason teams didn’t want him and could be right. This is about perceived perception.
Do you realize how absurd this whole conversation is? We’re arguing about getting rid of a player because of how we think team’s perceive a player.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
because his manager
wasn’t being careful.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember that incident, I was watching with wide eyes and that umpire blew the call...
in an important game and MB blew up. He was passionate for winning… which I can totally dig. Granted sometimes he gets in his own way, but all in all I’ll take it- we need some more fire… some more dragons!
by smash! on Aug 30, 2009 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That too.
I have never seen a manger fling a player to the ground like that, or have I since. I haven’t seen any of Bradley’s past managers do it and I have not since (and he’s had to be held back by each one of those managers).
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's irrelevant. You missed the entire point of my post
The opinion “injuries are why he moves around so much” and “attitude is why he moves around so much” have an equal chance of being right and there is no use making personal decisions on something that is so utterly imprecise and widely varying.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
fair enough.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 29, 2009 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I don't know why Al wants to trade him, but here's why I do:
Bradley is getting paid far too much to be a #2 guy who gets on base a lot. If he were a middle infielder, or even a centerfielder, or a catcher, his numbers in the second half would be extremely adequate.
Bradley is playing in a position that is usually a power hitter’s position. He was brought here to be a power hitting corner outfielder, and bat in the middle of the order. That is the kind of player we needed, and he doesn’t fit that bill.
We have plenty of guys in today’s lineup that would do good, to pretty good doing exactly what Bradley has done this season.
It would be a different story if we could count on that run production coming from other spots in the lineup, if we had a power hitting middle infielder, or catcher (two things we had a year ago) or if we could even count on the other outfielders picking up his lack of power, but we didn’t have that this year, and we can’t count on that next year either.
I’m glad Bradley has stepped it up down the stretch. I don’t hate him. I think Hendry and Lou deserve a lot more of the blame for making the Bradley situation untenable than they are getting.
I hope his picking it up down the stretch will make him tradeable this winter, both to free up a spot so we can actually go get a player who provides the power numbers we normally see from a corner outfielder, and to free up his salary space
by Illicat on Aug 29, 2009 8:42 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
I stand by my opinion from last offseason
Bobby Abreu would look good in cubbie blue.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 29, 2009 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Abreu is basically Milton with more speed
he still wouldn’t have provided what we needed. Dunn, or Ibanez are the only ones who were available who would have.
And please, stat guys, spare me the “Dunn would have cost us more games than he would have won us” I’ve seen the stats, and those kind of predictors don’t take situations into account.
by Illicat on Aug 29, 2009 8:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
abreu so far this year:
.301/12 HR/85 RBI. not to mention the 27 stolen bases. I do agree he has much more speed than Milton, but he brings so much more. he has also played no fewer than 151 games.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 29, 2009 8:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh, and he's only making $5 mil this year
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 29, 2009 8:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
now, his salary I can get behind.
I forgot just how cheap he came
by Illicat on Aug 29, 2009 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so
is Bradley.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and he has 50 less rbi
and a much lower average.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 29, 2009 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he scuffled at the beginning of the year.
Abreau has two months this season hitting well below .250. One of them is right now.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 9:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Paying too much for that OBP
Yes he is the hottest hitter on team, right now but for what the Cubs are paying him they could have gotten Dunn (less even) and had a more feared hitter in the line-up. I’d call their defense a wash.
His price is too high, hopefully Bradley tears it the rest of the season, that will increase his trade value in the offseason to a AL team.
The sun will shine in '69
by gaclaudy on Aug 29, 2009 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Their not paying him too much
In fact they are underpaying him by 1.5 million dollars based on his accrued value this season.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know what's really funny
Milton Bradley is probably the most talked about player on the team right now. He has almost become the face of the team, either you like him or hate him, sorta like A-Rod, Sheffield, or Puljos.
The sun will shine in '69
by gaclaudy on Aug 29, 2009 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing is I don't want to talk about him.
He ’s not even in the top 10 of reasons why this team is losing this year.
There are many more important things to talk about in terms of what is going/ went wrong. Fontenot can’t hit, Soto is too fat/ can’t hit/ injured, Soriano is having an awful year, Ramirez’s injury, starting pitching injuries, Carlos Marmol, Kevin Gregg, Aaron Heilman, Aaron Miles, and then maybe Bradley’s defense.
His hitting has not been the problem.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
this season looked like it was in the tank early because
Ramirez’s injury and Soriano’s extended slump/nagging injury. I don’t think you can blame the pitching, not even Gregg/Marmol/Heilman. Sure, they’ve blown their fair share of leads, but no more than normally get blown over the course of a season. Even with the injuries to the starting pitching, guys from the minors stepped up. If Zambrano hadn’t gotten hurt, would Randy Wells be where he is?
by burncruisin on Aug 30, 2009 12:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I sort of wondered to myself...
… if he isn’t getting off on the “nobody believes in me, they all hate me, i’ll show them” mentality he’s been displaying. Maybe its driving his great play over the last week or so.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Aug 30, 2009 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
their defense
is absolutely NOT a wash. Milton Bradley, in a year that started with a bad fielding stretch, has a UZR of -1.8. Career, he’s got a UZR of 27.9.
This year, for the Nats, Adam Dunn has an OF UZR of -20.7. At first base, he has an UZR of -7.5.
His career UZR at first base is -14.8. His career UZR in the outfield… wait, I need to bold this.
-93.5
NEGATIVE NINETY THREE POINT FIVE.
To suggest that their defense is a wash is utterly uninformed, so hopefully you’re more informed now. I would argue that Adam Dunn loses as many games as he wins.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
lol you know how much UZR means
who would you rather have defensively, Hanley Ramirez or Theriot? Ramirez= -23.9, theriot = 6.5
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol your not putting that in context
Bradley, in his career, is a less talented hitter than Dunn, but it’s not that big of a gap.
Hanley Ramirez is a noted terrible fielder who will likely have to move to centerfield and hits like gangbusters. Theriot’s offensive ability it nowhere near, not even remotely close (over .100 points of wOBA) to Hanley’s. Hanley is worth 7.0 wins already because of how good his bat is at a premium position. You can be good while having a defense, but you have to hit like a god.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i said once again
who would you rather have defensively? who would you rather have defensively? who would you rather have defensively? who would you rather have defensively? who would you rather have defensively? who would you rather have defensively?
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 10:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Theriot not even close.
lol your going to say Hanley aren’t you. Please go talk to a scout about this since you won’t believe the statistics.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
first of all learn to read.
secondly, i think most scouts would say that they would take Hanley. Have you even talked to a scout in your life?
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
nope.
i didn’t say “please go talk to a scout about this since you won’t believe in statistics.” You should probably talk to a scout before you make an assumption about scouts and statistics.
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 10:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol

You haven’t talked to scouts. I haven’t either, but “Scouts” are just a code word for biased subjective analysis. If you talked to an actual scout, they’ll tell you Theriot is better. I’m really quite sure about this.
An experienced scout could not possibly confuse an above average SS with one of the worst in baseball.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
nice pic.
scouts & UZR = match made in heaven. I’d still rather have Hanley btw.
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 10:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agreed with you on this
Despite his defense, he is a much better player than Theriot. Much, much, much, much better.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 11:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're using the wrong numbers.
Those are heavily slanted by Ramirez’s 2007 season, which was abysmal according to UZR.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 11:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah it's a pretty clear distinction
That’s 2.82 wins he’s chopping off of his offensive value because of his defense. He is a DH, there is no doubt about it.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's actually nowhere near that bad...
He’s about average defensively at SS
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 11:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was talking about Dunn.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 30, 2009 12:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
These reply features get confusing I know.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 30, 2009 12:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, then yes.
Three-loss butcher it is.
I recommend that as our new nickname for Adam Dunn: the 3-loss butcher.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 12:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like it
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 30, 2009 12:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually, Bradley's making $9M this year, when you count the $4M signing bonus
From Cot’s
signed by Chicago Cubs as a free agent 1/6/09
$4M signing bonus
09:$5M, 10:$9M, 11:$12M
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Aug 29, 2009 10:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you wanna look at the whole deal when it's over you can add that 9 mil back and evaluate.
But on a yearly basis the question is whether he earned his salary. The signing bonus is not payed to him for services rendered or yet to be rendered it’s for signing. His salary is for his services and that’s 5 mil.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
c'mon Buzz
do you really think Bradley would have agreed to a contract that only pays him $5M the first year if the $4M signing bonus wasn’t part of it?
That’s just the games agents and GMs play and it was probably a cash flow incentive for Bradley.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Aug 29, 2009 10:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He probably wouldn't have taken the deal but his value vs. salary is still the same.
He’s still earned his salary this year. He wasn’t payed to produce like a 9mil player this year, he was payed to produce like a 5 mil player. Normally, he would be better than this, but he hasn’t.
Oh well, stuff happens.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah Buzz... you're the gift that keeps giving...
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Aug 29, 2009 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've tonned down the personal attacks
Just cause you veil yours in ambiguity doesn’t mean their any less of a personal attack
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
but you don't
count that as part of his salary. At best, you run that $4m over the life of the contract. So that would be $1.3M extra per year. So are you saying he hasn’t performed as a $6.3m player? Because the statistics tell you he is. I certainly think he is.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fine I can agree with that.
Because it’s not assigned to the first year the split evenly over years makes sense.
Fair enough.
I keep getting away from my main point. Bradley hasn’t been the problem this year. It shouldn’t matter what they’re paying him he has played adequately enough not to be one of the major reasons this team sucks. He hasn’t played well enough to carry this team or be main contributor, but he certainly shouldn’t be the focus of the fans ire.
He has been part of the reason this team hasn’t played well, but as I’ve said before he’s not even in the top 10.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
look at the numbers, drew - does common sense not enter the picture here?
Do you really think he signs a contract like that ($5M/$9M/$12M) without the $4M signing bonus?
Let me backtrack a bit and state that I base my reasoning here on the premise that he gets the entire $4M signing bonus this year (2009). I think that’s how signing bonuses work.
So add the $4M signing bonus to his first year “salary” of $5M, doesn’t that equate to getting paid $9M this year, and shouldn’t that be how you judge him?
If on the other hand, the signing bonus is prorated, i.e. paid, over the length of the contract, then I agree with your numbers.
Either way, I’m not questioning his performance relative to his contract at all. I think he’ll be well worth the $30M for the 3 yrs. I just think it’s a bit misleading to keep trotting out the “he’s only getting paid $5M this year” argument out there.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Aug 29, 2009 10:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
if he signs the contract or not. But it’s a bonus for SIGNING. Not performing.
I’m willing to prorate the worth of the signing across the three years — so fine. $6.3m for the first year. He’s still performing at that level.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow...
I cannot hope to compete in the face of such steadfastness and literal interpretations. So before I succumb to the Einstein definition of insanity, I shall make a less-than graceful retreat, shaking my head the whole way…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Aug 29, 2009 10:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see
why that’s not a reasonable interpretation.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 10:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a semantics argument...
There’s not really a “right” answer.
But regardless, the $4 million is part of the contract. You can’t not count it somewhere. You can argue whether it should be prorated over the 3 years (meaning he’s making $6.333 million this year) or you can count it as part of this year (meaning $9 million). But ignoring it is inappropriate.
And I actually agree that he’s performing at about the value of his contract this year (slightly above if you say $6.3 million, slightly below if you say $9 million).
by SouthernCub on Aug 30, 2009 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are we still in the 70s?
Why are people so hung up on AVG and RBIs? It seems that fans/beat reporters/broadcasters are the last to realize that those statistics became much less meaningful 10 years ago. Those statistics aren’t indicative of value nor are they predictive.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
say what you will. and whatever decade we happen to be in
I’ll take a .300 hitter with 100 RBI’s any day.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 29, 2009 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A .300 hitter with 100 RBI is probably good, yes.
But you don’t really know how good given just those numbers. In 1958 Mickey Mantle batted .304 and had 97 RBI. He got on base at a .447 clip and slugged .592, but had no more RBI opportunities than the average player. In 1985 Jim Rice batted .293 and drove in 103 runs. His OBP and SLG were each about .100 lower than Mantle’s season, but he raked in RBI because he had so many more opportunities. Which is not to say Rice had a bad season or that you wouldn’t “take it” — though you might not take it over, say, what Derrek Lee is producing this year.
These results courtesy of a b-r play index search — it looks like there are more extreme examples than this on the bad end but I can’t see them because of the way the search was limited (I’m not a subscriber). While it appears that it’s rare to hit .300, drive in 100 runs, and have a legitimately bad season, it’s not rare to miss those criteria and have a better season than Rice in ’85, or to exceed them greatly and have a worse season than Mantle in ’58.
by aldimond on Aug 30, 2009 2:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and what stats are?
not being snarky – just curious as to what you think the better stats would be.
Then my follow-up question would be why aren’t those stats the ones they put up on the tv screen or scoreboard when those players come up to bat?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Aug 29, 2009 10:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are a lot of better statistics to understand offensive value.
About the TV thing. It’s because a majority of the viewers wouldn’t understand it and it would take away from ratings. Some people want to watch baseball with their AVG/HR/RBIs, but that doesn’t mean those stats are good at indicating value. Just because something is done on a popular level doesn’t mean it’s accurate
I’m going to list a bunch of stats that are better than RBI:
OPS
OBP
SLG
wOBA (weighted on-base average)
EqR (equivalency runs)
EqA (equivalency average)
WAR (Wins Above Replacement)
Offensive Win Shares
and quite a few more.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
To answer the follow-up
most of it is historical, and the fact that most of the “improved” statistics have only been developed over the last two decades…. or it is only until then that people realized their value.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 11:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol Milton with more speed
Do you know just how bad Abreu is in RF. He is soooo slow it’s unbelievable. His defense in RF is an atrocity -5 runs in the field this year.
And Illicat I enjoy your unsupported claims about stats you clearly don’t understand. Care to delve into the math and prove why instead of just baseless claims that stats lie?
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's very servicable in RF
not to mention he has a cannon of an arm.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 29, 2009 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You got a scouting report that will say that?
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because I know you won't believe me when I post his UZR because it disagrees with your point.
And I know you think scouts and stats guys always disagree. Go ask Keith Law (he’s a scout not a statistician btw) what he thinks or someone who is a scout and have him verify it is a legit scout talking and then I’ll believe you.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=945&position=OF#fielding
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
have you even seen him play?
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 29, 2009 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He doesn't actually watch baseball...
Just spends his time on fangraphs.com all day.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Aug 30, 2009 8:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i can write one up for you, if you'd like
living in the new york area, i’ve seen him play quite a bit.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 29, 2009 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I have seen him play and he's slow and old.
You and I both aren’t scouts. To suggest that you can do what a scout can in terms of analysis is either the height of ignorance or the height of arrogance
2 Years ago I could have written up a ridiculous scouting report about Ryan Theriot’s defense and I would have been laughed at by any scout. It turns out Theriot is actually a good defender at SS.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It turns out Theriot is actually a good defender at SS.
i agree, theriots a GG snub imo. never double clutches and has great range and a great SS arm
Theriot is not clutch, he's double clutch!
by jesus christos on Aug 29, 2009 9:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would love to
move Theriot in a trade next year
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Aug 29, 2009 9:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or move him to second base where he'd be even more valuable
Why give up a good defensive, cost controlled SS? Does he have attitude problems too?
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
See that's the problem
You miss what the scouting reports (like John Dewan’s fielding bible says) about him. You are watching a game as a fan. You are not a scout.
His assets are he’s great going back on pop ups and has decent ability to get balls going to his right and has a very quick release.
His flaws are he has trouble with balls up the middle and has a weak arm.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
having a strong arm is important for a SS
dlee saves many of theriots bad throws, thats something stats doesnt show
Theriot is not clutch, he's double clutch!
by jesus christos on Aug 29, 2009 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uggh, picks are factored in my friend
Over a large sample size that noise will clear up.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Theriot a good defender at SS?
Puke. This is something that you don’t need fangraphs for.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Aug 30, 2009 8:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It has been mentioned
by Angel hitters, Kendrick, Morales and Aybar how much they appreciate Abreu presence in the lineup and in the clubhouse. I read this by one of there beat reporters on MLB.com. I also heard this on the MLB extra innings package there announcer, Rex Hudler, for what it is worth.
I still think The Cubs should try to trade Bradley. Never happen no one will take that contract for OBP of .390 and 35 RBI’s
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Aug 29, 2009 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lineup protection is a myth
A player, given a large enough sample size will hit just about his career norm regardless of who hits behind or ahead of him.
The players quotes about how good it is to have abreu in the lineup is nothing. Are they scouts? Are they stats guys? No, they play baseball. Just because you play baseball doesn’t mean you know everything about it (see Joe Morgan).
When players, beat reporters, and broadcasters are your sources that’s a problem.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh really?
So Aramis’ impact on the rest of the lineup when he was out, that was just a figment of our imagination? And when he came back, that positive impact was… mythical?
I’ll take a teammates opinion of Abreu over a “stat guy” any day of the week. Because they, you know, PLAY BASEBALL. There’s another element to the game besides just numbers.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Aug 30, 2009 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure that's what he's talking about
lineup protection usually means that a pitcher will treat a batter differently because of who is batting behind him — because Rami bats behind Lee, Lee doesn’t get bad pitches, because you’d rather have him put the ball in play and maybe make an out then have to face Rami with the man on. It’s one of the things that makes a batter like Bradley so important — he’s able to take walks and get on base even in front of Lee.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 30, 2009 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Any stats to support that Abreu is slow?
Got a 40 time? Or is that just a baseless claim?
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Aug 30, 2009 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Small sample size...
He’s SLG .413 for the season. But he’s a good #2 hitter, hopefully for another team next year.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Aug 29, 2009 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hear an AL team calling....
The sun will shine in '69
by gaclaudy on Aug 29, 2009 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And unless there are good prospects coming back,
JH will hang up the phone.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's underperformed yes.
but don’t use the “he’s supposed to be a middle of the lineup guy”. His value is what is value is regardless of how he gets it. 1.4 wins above replacement is 1.4 wins above replacement.
It doesn’t matter where he hits in the lineup, it matters that he’s produced. Not to the level they expected him to, but more than what they payed him for.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"It doesn't matter where he hits... he's produced..."
Forgive me if I’m mistaken, but aren’t the 3-5 spots in the lineup (where he’s hit) supposed to be big RBI spots? He’s got 36 RBI, and is hitting .230 with RISP. Not exactly what I’d call “production” from a middle of the order run-producer.
Is he a decent #2 hitter? Sure. But to say he’s produced anywhere he’s hit, is just not the case.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Aug 30, 2009 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No question
If the Cubs can get out from under the commitment to his contract, then they should do that for sure. The Cubs can find a player who can provide his production with fewer distractions, less attitude, more consistency, more reliability… and many, many less dollars. Bobby Abreu shows how paying a player such as Bradley for multiple years should be out of a smart GM’s playbook… at least one that doesn’t want to get fired.
And it’s not like the Cubs really know how to utilize him anyway… or pretty much anyone else on their roster. This isn’t all Milton’s fault (except the attitude, injuries and distractions), but if someone other team wants him, they can have him without any objection from me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Aug 29, 2009 8:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Drew, it's not his hot streak that makes me want to trade him
it’s the overall attitude and controversy that surrounds him. And, I’ll even give in to you and won’t assume it’s his fault. Fact is, it’s there, and the black cloud has unquestionably affected the team in a negative way.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 29, 2009 8:38 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Totally disagreed.
Now your are blaming the rest of the team’s hitting and pitching woes on Milton Bradley?!?! Give me a bloody break. I suppose its Milton’s fault the economy went south.
MLB has an entire history of players with attitudes that don’t meat your lofty standards and yet they still win championships.
Your argument holds no merit at all.
by Neifi Puppy on Aug 29, 2009 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
it does hold merit because it's my opinion.
And, for what it’s worth, go look at Milton’s track record and the teams he was on. You look at Texas, who had a decent year last year (and he was an all star). They figured they were 1-2 years away from making a playoff run. Don’t you find it odd that they didn’t bring him back?
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 29, 2009 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would think the number of teams the guy has been on would make anyone take pause
but apparently not
by Illicat on Aug 29, 2009 9:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
last 7 deals have been for one year. To me, that’s a HUGE red flag.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 29, 2009 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just going to start making one line posts to these types of posts:
Psuedo-Pyschology
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
sorry *Psychology
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Milton could have played another year for the Rangers
but he chose the Cubs because they offered more money
by Pre on Aug 29, 2009 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
are you sure the Rangers offered him a deal??
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Aug 29, 2009 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just searched mlbtraderumors for something about it
It seems that he was offered arbitration and declined.
by Pre on Aug 29, 2009 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Found another post that said that the Rangers were interested in signing him to a one or two-year deal
by Pre on Aug 29, 2009 9:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if I'm the Rangers...
…his bat would have been quite helpful in this duel with the Halos, and, by extension, the Red Sox.
Rickey has spoken. Keep the Athletics in Bump City.
by LeSaboteur on Aug 29, 2009 10:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not odd at all.
Texas had a glut of outfielders
by burncruisin on Aug 30, 2009 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not Milton's fault the economy went south.
That’s Theriot’s fault, for hitting all those deep fly balls, getting lucky on cheap home runs in May, then when the luck ran out in June watching his ISO/SLG fall back to career norms without improvement in his normal areas of strength. The collapse of Theriot’s home run bubble sent shockwaves through the economy, destroying the slugging default swap markets. Derrek Lee and Jake Fox set up a program to buy out the troubled power assets, but much of the power ultimately fell to short middle infielders on other teams (see Hill, Aaron).
by aldimond on Aug 30, 2009 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
I mean Milton injured Lilly, Dempster, and Zambrano. He injured Geo and ripped Rami’s shoulder out in a fit of rage. He pushed Soriano into that wall to injure his knee and he scared Carlos Marmol into not being able to throw strikes. He made Lou not be as good a manager.
Milton Bradley did all of this which is why the Cubs are having a bad season.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Aug 29, 2009 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
prove it.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why's it always gotta be a *black* cloud?
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 29, 2009 10:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
latent racism
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Aug 29, 2009 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
SWL do you believe that
racism exists in America? and do you believe that racism can be racism if it’s not the n-word or black guy as monkey reference?
Good racial humor is one thing, that mocks stereotypes. Bad racial humor perpetuates them and just makes fun of other races (see Carlos Mencia)
Cause I know your joking and from anyone else I’d pass this up, but I think you don’t take the possibility of racism that doesn’t jump up and hit you in the face seriously.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know racism exists...
but sometimes the people who are always looking for it are worse than the actual racists.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Aug 29, 2009 11:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, pretending it doesn't exist is always worse.
In what way can over analyzing racism bring as much harm as ignoring it.
Potentially ignoring it lets it happen, pointing it out where it isn’t just makes people mad. I’ll take the chance of making a few people mad at me rather than just letting it go and letting it continue.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 11:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pointing it out in every possible instance where it MIGHT exist only causes people to tune it out eventually.
The boy who cried racism.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Aug 29, 2009 11:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok fair enough. That's the Jessie Jackson/Al Sharpton argument as I feel Jackson and Sharpton find valid examples of racism and then handle them poorly. I don't buy that argument as racism never become non-serious.
But I feel like it isn’t a rare thing in this world and when reasonable people point it out they rarely are doing it in a way that makes people immune to it. Some if it might be subtle and when you find racism rarely are you pointing it out incorrectly. I feel like it would take a lot of incorrect cries for people to stop listening to racism
The only time your going to run into this is benign racism. Stuff that doesn’t do much damage, but doesn’t make things better either. Saying nothing here isn’t that big of a deal.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 11:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can we also start getting outraged at people who are latenly rude? Rudeness in our world is far and away more prevelant than racism.
Just today I was a victim of rudeness on 3 separate occasions.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Aug 29, 2009 11:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever SWL you can stuff our fingers in your ears
and go along on your merry way. I really don’t care to convince you anymore.
You are incapable of taking anything seriously, there’s really no point in arguing with you because it just becomes one meaningless quip after another. That’s fine when it comes to useless things like baseball or baseball statistics, but when it comes to something serious like racism or injustice there it’s just absurd.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 11:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
to it SWL, I beat you

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Aug 29, 2009 11:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
HOW DARE YOU!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Aug 29, 2009 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How can I go anywhere with your fingers in my ears?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Aug 29, 2009 11:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And that was the plural, too
How big are your ears, anyway? Even if we were all in a BK commercial, I think that would get uncomfortable after a while.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 29, 2009 11:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
* your
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 11:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Racism and injustice
are not topics to be discussed on a baseball blog anyway. To dismiss these subjects with quips is called defusing a possibly incendiary topic before it overruns a baseball discussion.
"Was you ever punched in the face five hundred times a night? It stings after a while." ~Rocky Balboa
by Goodie1969 on Aug 30, 2009 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Aug 30, 2009 8:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's amazing what two wins can do
for people’s attitudes….I love it
"Brant Brown...DROPS THE BALL!!!!"
by cubswgnrocks on Aug 29, 2009 8:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Driving home from
New Hampshire, taking my oldest daughter to college, a senior, goodness I am getting old.
Had the Mets radio team, Howie Rose, Wayne Hagen, good announcers. They mentioned about Dempster child, also mention how Santo specifically sought out David Wright to talk to him about getting hit in the head. Howie Rose talked about how Santo got hit in the cheek bone in 1966, eye swelled shut instantly. Then Santo sat out for 5 games and the first game back hit a homerun on his first AB to keep a 28 game hitting streak alive
I thought for the Mets announcers to come up with that information was pretty neat.
Just keep on winning Cubs, who knows what can happen. I still recall the Mets having a 7 game lead with 17 to go and blowing it, so funny things happen in this game.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Aug 29, 2009 8:11 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The Mets announcers are good
Wayne Hagin used to do White Sox games with John Rooney, then did Cardinals games for a few years. Ironically, Rooney replaced Hagin on Cards games.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 29, 2009 8:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Cards essentially screwed Hagin
when Rooney tired of another “White Sox Winner” and got the job he coveted.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Aug 29, 2009 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know I shouldn't say this
Ronnie Woo-Woo makes me laugh! How long has been coming to Cubs games? I seem to remember him from 30 years ago. Part of what I enjoy about going to a Cubs game is the characters.
Ronnie Woo-Woo is a character and is certainly a part of the texture that goes with being at Cubs games.
I love watching the Cubs during the season and dread watching them in the playoffs.
by Cub Fan Mike on Aug 29, 2009 8:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh, God, no
I love characters as much as the next guy, but not this guy. He makes my flesh crawl.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 29, 2009 8:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're not going to make any friends here by saying that.
Particularly me. That person is a self-promoter, not a Cubs fan. He’s all about him.
Enough. Don’t mention him again.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Aug 29, 2009 8:52 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
As Ronnie would say...
ohhhh, noooooo…
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Aug 29, 2009 10:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
god the cubs suck so much it's amazing. suck suck suck
wink wink
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 9:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I want to keep Milton
He’s go the best hitting eye on the team and is an OBP machine. He’s great at driving the ball to the gap and plays solid defense for the most part. He’s one of the league’s best switch hitters. He can hit for power.
His skill set is very useful, and I think that this whole year (this week in particular) has taught him a lot about how to handle things. If he can learn to not to give the media so much to work with and be less uptight around the fans (like when he bowed after catching that fly ball), I think that things will cool down and he can be a popular and productive member of this team.
by Pre on Aug 29, 2009 9:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd like to
keep him too and especially agree with your second paragraph.
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
by sue369 on Aug 29, 2009 9:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really hope this year has taught him some things...
I hope so because I think he’s a good player that can help the team, and because I have a lot of sympathy for what he’s faced from the media and some fans. He seems to be an extreme introvert, and dealing with the fans, media, and even teammates will always be hard for him. I am very introverted myself and have a bit of experience performing in front of crowds that are yelling at me (fortunately on a much smaller scale than MLB). I’ve never even had to deal with a hostile crowd… sometimes crowds that want to help are just as bad. I don’t think Bradley will ever be a smash with the media. Probably the best we can hope for is something like Frank Thomas (remember his problems, for a time?). But to get even to that point Bradley will have to grow a thicker skin toward the fans, and be more shrewd about what he says. Starting next season at the plate the way he’s finished this one would go a long way, too.
(When Thomas was with the As I lived in the Bay Area, and it seemed like everyone loved him there — I think getting away from all the people that he’d sparred with over the years helped him, and he really was more mature by that time and willing to accept his role and his limitations. At the same time… say what you will about Oakland baseball fans, they mostly save the booing and heckling for opposing players. That goes a long way towards making a guy feel at home.)
by aldimond on Aug 30, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i want to keep milton if he keeps hitting like this
but i think you can find another hitter like this without the distractions that come along
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 9:27 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Can you find a hitter like this that gets on base as often and plays adequete defense?
by Pre on Aug 29, 2009 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OBP of .390, 11 HRS, and 35 RBI's
for 10 Million, sure I could find somebody, give me a offseason like Hendry had.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Aug 29, 2009 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can't really.
The RBIs are irrelevant. You just don’t find a ton of people with .390 OBPs for 5 Mil.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The obession
of OBP, and driving in runs don’t mean a thing. Great I guess Fox’s 5 RBI’s had nothing to do with the win today?
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Aug 29, 2009 9:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What he means is that RBI don't reflect solely on you
It’s very much a team-dependent stat. If three guys hadn’t gotten on base, it would have been only one RBI.
by Pre on Aug 29, 2009 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But it still would've been the game winner.
"Was you ever punched in the face five hundred times a night? It stings after a while." ~Rocky Balboa
by Goodie1969 on Aug 30, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
RBIs are two wide sweeping of a stat.
RBI assume that the person driving in the run did all the work to make that run come in. The way you are using RBI assume is that the frequency upon which player comes to the plate with men on base is under his control and what type of hit he has when there are men on base is under his control. There are way, way, way too many other factors with RBI to be able to extrapolate that statistic to a players production level.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure it is dependent
on other players I get that. However give me a guy who comes through in that spot. April through mid July, Bradley, Soriano, Soto, Fontenot did not step it up and drive in runs in situations they were needed. Earlier part of the year Bradley was more concerned on taking a walk then trying to drive in a run or even drive the ball.
This teams failure has not been OBP, their failure is to drive in runs in clutch spots, 2 outs with runners in scoring position, bases loaded and less than two outs, runner on third with less than two outs. I have seen enough games this year to realize that Lee and Ramirez are our two best hitters because they get the hits when the Cubs need them. Ask yourself would you want Bradley up with the game on the line to drive a run home or Lee/Ramirez?
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Aug 29, 2009 10:00 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think that anyone is arguing that Milton is on DLee or Aramis' level as a hitter
by Pre on Aug 29, 2009 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No he's not
But his defense would make his value equal if not slightly less than Ramirez if he was having a normal defensive year.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is no evidence that Bradley is more concerned about walking than hitting in the clutch.
Just because a player is really patience doesn’t mean he “doesn’t want to drive in runs”. That is just fairy tale type stuff right there. Clutch is a very minimal skill that has such minimal effect on the game it makes little difference.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no
you want Bradley up BEFORE THEM. SO SOMEONE IS ON BASE TO BE DRIVEN IN.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 10:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ironically
one of those guys that Jake Fox drove in?
Milton Bradley. Because he’s got AMAZING OBP.
He scored twice today. Twice yesterday. Twice on wednesday. Twice on tuesday. It’s because HE GETS ON BASE. EIGHT RUNS IN FIVE DAYS.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 10:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
$9M - see above
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Aug 29, 2009 10:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think it's more about driving in runs. If you want obp and defense, sam fuld is pretty good at both things.
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 9:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fuld isn't as good a hitter or on base player as Milton
by Pre on Aug 29, 2009 9:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you asked if i can find a hitter that gets on base as often and plays adequete defense
Sam fuld is a better defender than bradley and obviously bradley is a better hitter. For the short amount of time fuld has been in the big leagues, he has showed the ability to take walks and get on base.
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 9:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
His OBP will not anywhere close to as high as MBs though.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, for the short amount of time he has been in the big leagues
Meaning that it’s a small sample size and we don’t know what would happen if he was a full-time starter. I really do like Sam Fuld, but I’d rather put Milton out there. Sam is perfect as a defensive replacement and as platoon guy, though.
by Pre on Aug 29, 2009 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and also don't get me wrong, i dont think Sam fuld is god
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 9:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's hoping Fuld improves his hitting during the off-season
so he can become an everyday player.
by Blue Heron on Aug 30, 2009 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Driving in runs?
so situational hitting? The statistic that has no consistent trend from year to year? Yeah I’ll bank on that one. Instead of wOBA, OPS, OBP, SLG, and UZR. I’ll focus on who drives in runs
Again are you guys stuck in the 70s. No teams use RBI as a determining factor in baseball decisions. No GM will pick a player because of RBIs alone. This statistic has limited usefulness. It tells you a little about about someone’s ability to “drive in runs” but SLG would tell you that better.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
RBIs and SLG go hand in hand
lol and yeah the rbi stat is still quite useful these days
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mike Fontenot has more RBI than Milton this season
Does that mean that he’s a better hitter?
by Pre on Aug 29, 2009 9:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
define a good hitter for me please
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on position, but probably a .340ish wOBA.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I'm just saying
Having more RBI than someone doesn’t mean anything in terms of how good a player you are. Mike has more RBI despite the fact that Milton is hitting roughly fifty points higher than him and has a full one hundred-point advantage in OBP.
Hell, Jason Giambi had 40 RBI this season despite hitting .193. RBI is a really awful way to determine someone’s true value.
by Pre on Aug 29, 2009 9:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
which season would you rather have
104 rbis, .285 average, .342 obp, .483 slg or 77 rbis, .321 avg, .436 obp, .563 slg, my opinion, i’d rather take the first.
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 10:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol it's not even close the second. That is why you aren't a GM quiet frankly.
You do realize that that OPS is in Pujols territory? It would take absurd amounts of suckatude by the team around you to not reach 100 RBIs with that high of a SLG.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
*quite
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol i think you read it wrong
not which player i would have, which season
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 10:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that team led the league in scoring last year
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and btw the second is bradley
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 10:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So lets use a better stat to see who's right on this.
wOBA or weight on base average.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=157&position=3B/OF#advanced
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=369&position=OF#advanced
.350 wOBA for Mora
.423 wOBA for Bradley last year.
Factoring in defense that makes Bradley a whole 2 wins better than Mora last year.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmmm
It would take absurd amounts of suckatude by the team around you to not reach 100 RBIs with that high of a SLG.
OK first in runs means “absurd amount of suckatude.” Yeah, that’s where you’re wrong. What does that say about Bradley when he only drives in 77 runs, which is the most he’s ever had in a year.
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 10:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's because he isn't a run producer
He’s the guy that’s getting driven in.
by Pre on Aug 29, 2009 10:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah so that goes back to the Cubs and how they were
stupid enough to believe this guy was run producer.
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
alright.
so, they scouted him wrong — or they presented him wrong. But if Milton Bradley could keep up his production for this month across a season, he would be a very big asset to ANY team, the Cubs certainly among them.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 10:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I said absurd amount of suckatude by the team around you.
Not by that player.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah and you were wrong.
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 10:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's indicative of how badly RBIs lie as a stat
You thought a player who had twice the value of another was worse.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Someone wanna back me up here
Because it feels like I’m talking to a wall here.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't look at me - every time I see RBIs, I think of Ribbies...
…as in nice, smoked, bbq sauce covered ribs… ;-)

mmm…..
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Aug 29, 2009 10:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And how delicious they are
=)
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
have stats won the A's a WS or even a pennant?
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol Is this me posting as a joke again
I used almost that exact line as a joke.
You know who has won in part because of advanced statistics? The Red Sox and the Red Sox. TWICE!
Do you any of you get now why I did that whole Buzz on the Moon thing. People like this really do exist.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 11:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Red Sox used statistics? What about their really good baseball players?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Aug 29, 2009 11:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't you know that they actually have animated spreadsheets playing?
But seriously, how do you think they decided to get all those good players?
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 11:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stats can help you determine which players might perform better than others...
winning the WS takes an enormous amount of talent, a well thought out strategy, and luck.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Aug 29, 2009 11:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Spoken like someone
Who has read and understood every word of “Moneyball”.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 29, 2009 11:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I only believe what Joe Morgan says.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Aug 29, 2009 11:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Red Sox manager?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Aug 29, 2009 11:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, but it was an enormous factor
in why they picked the players they did. It was a big reason why they were so good in the regular season and playoffs. It wasn’t even the single biggest reason, but it was a big reason.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 11:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
stats only go so far.
Did you think David Ortiz could hit the way he has hit? Probably not. That was amazing luck.
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 11:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's why Epstein also employs a legion of scouts.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 11:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
luck is part of the game
but don’t pretend like the Sox success is just that.
The Yanks also employ advanced statistics, as do the Rays, as do the Dodgers, as do the Indians, as do just about every team in baseball.
This stats vs. subjective debate hasn’t existed in front offices for about 4 or 5 years now. They realize value of both scouting and statistics and employ both sides.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 11:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the thing on "luck"
You can even quantify that to a certain extent. There’s stats for it! Look at a guy’s LD% and BABIP as a hitter, or the HR/FB allowed by a pitcher. When we looked at Rich Harden a few months back and he was struggling, we found out that he was probably getting hit with some bad luck and that his HR rate would decrease… and it has!
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 11:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
... and that's why Ramirez's career
UZR rating is misleading. If you use his career UZR/150 you get a much better representation of his talent level.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 11:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't care to look at it.
I was just talking with him about the hypothetical.
Defensively you still want Theriot. Offensively and overall it’s Hanley clearly.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 11:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
btw soriano uzr lol is 20.3 in LF
NICEY!
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's his latest UZR/150?
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 29, 2009 11:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
6.0...
and that sounds about right to me.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 11:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
this year...
it’s -10.1
That’s pretty bad, as it should be.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 11:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a big swing
Especially for an outfielder. Indicates a severe change in…something.
A lingering injury since late April could explain it.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 29, 2009 11:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
His range is down...
but it’s his arm that’s had the biggest dropoff. I think a few things have caused it: his bum knee, people running on him less, and a couple times he’s seemed to have been caught off-guard when people run on him (becuase they’ve more or less stopped doing it).
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 11:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Makes sense to me
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 29, 2009 11:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
career is 6. last year he had a 19.7. this year no stat.
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 11:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Until this year he was a good defender in LF
Using selective end points and a single example really doesn’t prove your point whatsoever.
I know you think your clever and whatnot, but stop arguing about things you don’t understand. I don’t even fully understand them, but I know more about statistics in baseball obviously as is evidenced by the argument were having, but I’m a dumb ass compared to Shawn.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 11:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd like to try something...
without looking up numbers, give me your impression of Soriano as a fielder over the past few years. Tell me what he’s good, bad, and average at.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 11:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
good at throwing
bad: at going back on a ball, going in on a ball, cutting the ball off
average: idk, maybe catching the ball?
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 11:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, here's what UZR says:
He’s above average, range-wise (but not by much).
He’s below average at fielding, catching (again, not by much).
He’s terrific at throwing the ball – i.e. above average by a LOT.
That sounds about right, doesn’t it?
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 11:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
check that.
He’s actually pretty bad at catching the ball… or at least he’s more below average at that than he is above average at getting to them.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 11:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think his range is average. Above average, maybe.
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly!
So you and UZR agree on Soriano’s abilities as a fielder!
When you use the metric properly, it does a very good job. It still has a lot of error in it, but that’s largely because any measurement of fielding (including scouting) is going to have a lot of variance.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When healthy
His legs could make up for his initial indecision while tracking a hit ball.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 29, 2009 11:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW,
the fan’s scouting report says ramirez is the better defender. I’m not sure which one i’d take, but it’s definitely close. They seem to be the same overall defensively +/- a win over the course of a year..
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 11:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have this notion that theriot is as good as he's been this year.
Your right to point out that he’s likely playing over his head. But given the examples it was a clear choice.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with that.
The problem is the example was using the wrong set of numbers and weren’t filly labeled.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 11:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the other thing about luck...
is you know about how much the variances in a stat are. So even if you don’t have a direct measurement of luck you can estimate how well you know a certain player by the expected variance (degree to which their numbers will vary) in their future performance. And you also know how large a sample you need before considering that something has changed in a player’s talent level.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 11:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
as for the wins
stats can say whatever. You can’t predict wins.
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 10:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
lol lol lol lol.
You can predict them with a reasonable amount of accuracy. That is a really ignorant thing to say.
Tom Tango disagrees and he work for Mariners right now. Do you?
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually don't work for the Mariners.
As for Tango, talk to me when they win a WS.
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 11:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The M's are doing very well.
Since the regime change they’ve improved a heck of a lot in one season, both in terms of the on-field product and the organizational depth.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 11:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes i agree. But stats only go so far.
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 11:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
also...
Tango is one of the people that’s been advancing incorporating scouting into analysis in a statistical fashion. Google “fan’s scouting report” and you’ll see what I mean.
I think you’d like a lot of his work.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 11:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everything only goes so far.
And in today’s game you can’t go anywhere without a good stats department.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
aye
That argument comes off as “stats are meaningless and I am right.”
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 11:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah you would take it that way.
in fact, i never said that stats should be gone. I just disagree with you because you’ve only mentioned stats as a measuring point to how good a player is.
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 11:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But unless you're a scout.
… or talk to one, that’s the best measurment you’re going to get. The only substitute for a scout is the fan’s scouting report.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 11:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And even that has the issue of people watching on TV or trying to remember what they think about players.
The large sample size helps, but it’s not as good as having a giant collection of scouts reports compiled and analyzed.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No doubt.
I worded that wrongly. It should say:
The best substitute for a scout is the “fan’s scouting report,” and i’d wager (though i don’t know since i’ve never talked to a scout) is that even that is not a suitable replacement.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because that's the only way I have available to me
I’m not a scout. And neither are you. Making these opinions on my own I’m using what I can.
And these statistics are very, very good statistics.
What your doing is saying your eyes are good enough to over come statistical analysis.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 11:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Besides...
here’s another example of your argument:
Buzz: Apple pie is great!
Lex: There’s more to the world than just aplle pie.
See how silly that is? Sure there’s other stuff in the world, but that doesn’t mean cherry pie isn’t great.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 11:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
gah...
it doesn’t mean apple pie isn’t great, either.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How dare you suggest cherry pie is great!
I haven’t finished compiling the TORP 2.3 (Taste over Replacement Pie) yet, I can’t make a informed decision. You shouldn’t be so reckless when talking about pie!!!
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 11:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's okay
Best part of the album is the cover, IMHO.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 29, 2009 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But what happens if you judge an album by it's cover
We could be arguing about cherry pie, but then the songs really about apple pie?
Hmmmm? What then?
Riddle me that =P
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 11:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Judging that album by its cover
I give it a definitive, umm…thumb’s up.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 29, 2009 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can?
Then why didn’t you predict this year’s disaster? Did you predict the Rays’ season last year, and them going to the World Series? Did you predict 97 wins for the Cubs last year? What’s your accuracy, +/- 20 wins?
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Aug 30, 2009 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's not about predicting "wins"
it’s about realizing that adding 10 runs to a team’s total over the course of a season will, on average, make that team 1 run better. Every time you see “y-win player” just think that having them on your roster will make the team 10 times y better in terms of runs scored.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, stats cannot say whatever.
YOU and your eyes can say whatever. Maybe you looked at Ryan Freel one day and saw a future hall of famer. But the stats wouldn’t have ever said anything like that.
The stats are constrained by the metrics through which they are created. There’s no such constraint on human opinion.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 29, 2009 11:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
farney is a HOFer
freel… not so much
Theriot is not clutch, he's double clutch!
by jesus christos on Aug 29, 2009 11:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 11:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who needs scouts?
In Farney’s case, numbers are enough. BA: .750, UZR: 79.4
Unanimous first-ballot HOFer, no doubt about it.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 30, 2009 12:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats classified
sorry amigo
Theriot is not clutch, he's double clutch!
by jesus christos on Aug 30, 2009 12:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
Is that because Farney’s OPS is infinity?
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 30, 2009 12:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd take the second
And there’s room for both run producers and on base people. Someone has to be on base for the run producers to knock in.
by Pre on Aug 29, 2009 10:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd want to know
which season scored more runs. Because that’s the stat that helps the team the most, offensively.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 10:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and also i never once said that rbi is a determining stat on who is the better hitter
but sure if you think i did, then i did. As for those two, Milton is the better hitter.
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Aug 29, 2009 10:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's even worse at determing how much a player should be payed.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
RBI and SLG are related, but it's not even close to 1:1
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So Jim and Lou
sat down and said" we want Milton so by August he will have a .390 OBP , 11 HR’s and 35 RBI’s" and Lou looks at Jim and says " Yeah another Dome" sure Jim lets give him 30 Million for 3 years.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Aug 29, 2009 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No because they wouldn't look at it that way.
They would look at it the kind of production he would have over the length of the contract. You don’t evaluate a deal after 1 year. Especially, with a player with an established track record.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 9:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Established Track record?
Wow, the guy has been hurt his whole career. Enough. Milton is a average ballplayer. It is amazing he has played this many games.
One last thing, Jim and Lou looked at his track record and knew the guy was a pain in the rear and spends time on the DL more than not. Lou wanted Ibanez not Milton, that was brought up today on the radio side of the game today by the Mets announcers who interviewed Lou today.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Aug 29, 2009 10:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So injuries prevent you from having an established track record?
Al, do you see why so many people get banned due to frustration? I’m not responding to this because it would just be a curse filled rant.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Childish...
If you can’t express yourself without cursing or crying out to AL… then GTFO.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Aug 30, 2009 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So tell me
How can you establish a track record when Milton may play 100 games out of 162? This year for Milton is a rare occurrence.
It really doesn’t matter want Milton does for the Bradley lovers, he could play 80 games and say he is a star.
In 10 seasons, 3 years over 120 games including this year, 3 times over 500AB including this season, So how in the world can you magically say he has a track record when he is hurt 40% of a season.
The love for this guy is astounding.
Go ahead curse at me, I am a big boy.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Aug 30, 2009 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
average?
are you saying a player who is a career 27.0 WAR is an average player??? Career 27.9 UZR? Career .825 OPS???
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 10:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's at this point I have to believe people are convinced that Bradley is no good
And no amount of objective evidence will prove otherwise. It’s not like anyone is asking you to believe MB is a good person. We’re just asking you to admit the very readily available fact an above average-very good baseball player.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
*fact that Bradley is
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes I can
Because for the most part of his career He is freaking hurt. When you don’t play you can’t produce, so all of those wonderful numbers are for the most part in 100 game seasons, the problem is the league is 162
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Aug 30, 2009 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly...
Milton’s track record has showed injuries, DL stints, never playing a full-season, and distractions. If anything, they went against his track record and hoped he’d be something he’s clearly not.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Aug 30, 2009 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sam Fuld's UZR
is 4.6, and his OBP is .372 in pretty limited playing time. His bat does not outweigh Bradley’s, not even close, and frankly, I don’t think the UZR difference makes THAT much of a difference.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well every 10 runs above replacement both offensively and defensively are worth a win
In that small amount of playing time he has not accrued very much defensive value. Also know that UZR stabilizes over a period of 3 years. We don’t even know how good Fuld’s true defensive talent is at this point. We have a good idea about Bradley.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
it’s a pretty small sample size on Fuld.
I do love how he throws himself at the ball, tho.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like the guy, I really do.
The whole statistics background and the effort he displays. But without some sudden jump in power or big spike in OBP he’s a fourth outfielder at best. If he can become an above average everyday outfielder I will all the happier.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
who?
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's on second!
Game, set, match, life!
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Aug 29, 2009 11:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe we
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 29, 2009 10:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blah - Try #2
Maybe we’re thinking about this the wrong way
MB is very, very useful as a lightning rod. When every media eye is turned to MB, the coaching staff can make adjustments free from the type of scrutiny they would normally receive. MB gives them and everyone else some breathing room to quietly go about their business, and we may see positive results from that.
Example: Mike Fontenot had a fine game today offensively and defensively. True, he was (technically) only in there as a sub for an injured Baker, but if MB is taking up every microphone after the game, perhaps Lou can quietly start platooning Fontenot into the lineup when it makes sense and when he needs to rest the regulars. And he can do it without the first question out of reporters’ mouths being, “I saw you didn’t start Fontenot today – is he hurt? Sick? Heartbroken? WTF, Lou?!?”
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 29, 2009 11:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually Fontenot was going to be in the lineup today regardless.
ARam was supposed to have the day off, but when Baker got hurt during BP, Lou put ARam back in the lineup.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Aug 29, 2009 11:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right
I was forgetting that detail. Of course, I never think that Rami needs a day off…
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 29, 2009 11:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 30, 2009 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have decided that it is time to pretend that this team was 15 games back at one time
If this Giants game stands up we are 5.5 out. Florida lost. We will be 4 back in the loss column. What else do we have to do? Ride Milton and his hot bat. Hold on to Harden so we have the draft picks. We have a chance to have fun the last month. I hope the Cubs give everyone a giant shit burger to eat. Just a thought. I am not getting too far out over my skis, but Sept baseball with a contrived purposed is better than a worthless month with nothing at all to even think about.
"How's your mother?"
"She's on her way out."
"We all are. Act accordingly."
by louslovechild on Aug 29, 2009 9:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I love picking out your mistakes Al.
The throw that cut down Tatis was a relay from Ryan Theriot not Mike Fontenot.
Change is inevitable; progress is optional.
by Devin B on Aug 29, 2009 9:57 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah
fontenot might have thrown the ball at the ground instead of k hill
Theriot is not clutch, he's double clutch!
by jesus christos on Aug 29, 2009 10:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But did Theriot
Double-clutch the relay throw?
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 29, 2009 11:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i want to say no
Theriot is not clutch, he's double clutch!
by jesus christos on Aug 29, 2009 11:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's just focus on how awesome Jake Fox is
He is so awesome, I forgot there’s a dude out there called DeRosa (almost).
by chilango2 on Aug 29, 2009 10:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah, lets do that
![]()
Theriot is not clutch, he's double clutch!
by jesus christos on Aug 29, 2009 10:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jake Fox, Obama (icon) and Jesus Christos?
IT’S HAPPENING!!!!
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Aug 29, 2009 10:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i dont follow
Theriot is not clutch, he's double clutch!
by jesus christos on Aug 29, 2009 10:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
just a tongue-in-cheek observation of the perfect-stormness combination of
your user name (representing a significant historical figure),
a popular graphic style (representing a significant current-day figure), and
our latest Cub well on his way to sainthood.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Aug 29, 2009 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh
Theriot is not clutch, he's double clutch!
by jesus christos on Aug 29, 2009 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Giants may blow this game
Colorado has the tying run at bat with two outs in the ninth after already having scored two this inning.
Brian Wilson is coming in to save the game.
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...
by Curtain Jerker on Aug 29, 2009 10:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The Giants
You always want the first place team to lose.
Helton singles and the winning run is now batting…
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...
by Curtain Jerker on Aug 29, 2009 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oboy...
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
At this point - Giants
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Aug 29, 2009 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fly out to center and game over
Giants win 5-3
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...
by Curtain Jerker on Aug 29, 2009 10:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
whew.
w00t!
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 10:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep!
Cubs are 5.5 back and 4 back in the loss column.
St Louis won today but that doesn’t really matter…if the Cubs are getting into the playoffs it’s going to be through the WC
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...
by Curtain Jerker on Aug 29, 2009 10:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe
we can do that. It ain’t over yet.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 10:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
At this point, I'll believe until they put the little X next to the Cubs name in the standings
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...
by Curtain Jerker on Aug 29, 2009 11:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's possible just not likely.
But there is still a chance. I might as well hang on and see where it goes.
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 29, 2009 11:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You might as well
You’ve followed this team this far, might as well see how the movie ends.
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...
by Curtain Jerker on Aug 30, 2009 12:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The boat sinks, Rose lives a long life, but Leo dies
Wait…what?
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 30, 2009 12:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
for a recap...
try this
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we will go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
by cubnational on Aug 30, 2009 12:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and houston
got SPANKED, 9-0.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 29, 2009 10:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/messages/chrono/16891255
reading that made me sad and a bit angry
Theriot is not clutch, he's double clutch!
by jesus christos on Aug 30, 2009 12:54 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The replies made me laugh.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Aug 30, 2009 1:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
they made me laugh with anger
Theriot is not clutch, he's double clutch!
by jesus christos on Aug 30, 2009 1:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you didn't read them all....
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Aug 30, 2009 1:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he strikes again!
Theriot is not clutch, he's double clutch!
by jesus christos on Aug 30, 2009 1:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
HE'S EVERYWHERE!
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Aug 30, 2009 2:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh u
(This story was produced by BCPDnewservice. Our motto: If you don’t like this story then suck it!)
by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Aug 30, 2009 2:22 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Eric Hanna is an unstopable force!!!!
Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...
by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 30, 2009 4:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
these new comments make me even more angry
Theriot is not clutch, he's double clutch!
by jesus christos on Aug 30, 2009 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

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