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Milton Bradley is my Underpaid Salesman

Originally posted at Another Cubs Blog

Here’s a somewhat pretend scenario based on a true story. Let’s say you’re running a company, and hire a guy with a 3-year contract worth $300,000. You give him a $40,000 signing bonus, will pay him $50,000 in his first year, $90,000 in his second year, and $120,000 in his third year. Let’s furthermore say his occupation is such that his value can be measured in a very real and important number: dollars ($). A salesman would be a great example of this. Finally, let’s say the guy you hired – let’s call him Mitch… Brinks – had incredible sales elsewhere but some of his "reference" letters mentioned some attitude problems. So here’s the game: it’s currently nearing the end of year 1 and Mitch just got into a bit of a yelling match with someone, so you figure now is a good time to review the return on your investment.

Star-divide

When you look at the numbers, you see Mitch had a rough start. He had moved from the West Coast, and didn’t adjust to East Coast time (and your company’s early-to-rise schedule) for a while. His luck was pretty bad. There were quite a few deals he made that due to some bad luck, Mitch didn’t seem to close. So his sales were down. Waaaay down. To make matters worse, he also rubbed some customers the wrong way. (Fortunately they were the type to write a nasty letter but show up again tomorrow.) Finally, the whole company seemed to be in a rut. Not only were Mitch’s numbers down, but one of your other top salesman – Adolphus Scranton – has been sick all year and has seemingly cost the company money. Another salesperson, Alex Randley, was out sick for 3 months. The company has had a horrible year, and Mitch had been really, really disappointing.

But then you noticed something else… Around halfway through the year, something clicked for Mr. Brinks and he started getting the sales you expected. His luck turned around quite a bit, and most of his deals were closing. His attitude still didn’t agree with people at times… but Mitch has been a damn good salesman the past few months. In fact, he’s been such a good salesman that it’s only October and Mitch has already earned his salary for the year! In fact, he’s earned enough – $65,000 – to be worth his yearly salary ($50,000) plus the pro-rated portion of his signing bonus ($13,334)… and he’s still got 2 months to go!!

You start patting yourself on the back for hiring this guy, because you realize that you’re probably underpaying him for his sales performance this year. You’re also fairly confident that he can live up to the escalating portions of his contract because the past few months have been more in line with his career performance levels than the first half of the year were. This belief is reinforced by your knowledge that other employees have also had slow starts with the company, only to rebound late in the first year of their time with the firm.

So you look at all this, and are getting some unpaid advice from some blowhard "friends" of yours that don't know the first thing about sales but know a LOT about making their opinions heard. They tell you to cut bait with Mr. Brinks and fire him immediately because he hasn't gotten along with everyone. You start to consider their opinion, until you remember that they're blowhards and what's worse they're professional rabble-rousers that profit from the attention their loud (albeit ill-advised) opinions generate. (This action also has the unfortunate side effect of getting the neighbors to taunt Mr. Brinks whenever he tries to make a sale.) Given all this, do you take their advice, and fire your solid salesman? Of course you don't.

--------------------------------------------------

Here’s why this analogy works, using numbers: Milton Bradley signed a 3-year, $30M dollar deal that paid him a $4M signing bonus and will give him $5M in his first year, $9M in his second year, and $12M in his third year. Divide these numbers by 100 to get Mitch’s numbers. Bradley had a very slow start. He claims it was due in part to adjusting to Wrigley. Whether or not that’s a valid reason, we know many others including Derrek Lee, Moises Alou, Jacque Jones, and Ryan Dempster have had slow starts to their time with the Cubs. It’s also pretty clear that Bradley was the victim of some bad luck early on in the season. His BABIP is about average on the season, but look at how low it was in the first half:

Furthermore, Bradley has rebounded very well in the second half of the season. He’s hit .295 with an OBP of .416, a SLG of .467. He has been a one of the 10-best right fielders in MLB in the second half with a wOBA* of .388. He’s been worth $6.5M** this season, which is more than his $5M salary plus the $1.3M pro-rated portion of his signing bonus. In other words, he’s already been worth more in on-field production than his entire 2009 salary… and there’s over a month of baseball left in the season! In other words he’s overpaid.

What will the future hold? No one knows, but Bradley has been worth $40M over the last three years (2006-2008) combined. That’s about $13M/season, on par with what he’ll be making on average in the last 2 years of his contract. This, when combined with his bad luck in the first half and his rebound in the second make me confident he’ll be able to make good on the rest of the deal going forward.

* - wOBA is weighted on-base %. It’s easily the best single-number out there for measuring a player’s hitting results and .388 is very good. If you want to know more, ask in the comments or use google.

** - These estimated values from from www.fangraphs.com. Basically, they measure how many more runs this player produced in your lineup (or in the field) compared to your average AAA replacement player. They then convert the number of runs the player adds to your team (or costs your team) into wins, and convert those wins into $$$. The latter conversion is based on past free agent contracts. Basically, they use the free market value for talent in MLB and use that to calculate the value of a player’s performance in $$$$.

Poll
Milton Bradley's $6.3 million salary (w/bonus) for 2009 is:
too much
85 votes
about right
128 votes
too little
32 votes

245 votes | Poll has closed

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

11 recs  |  Comment 239 comments

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Comments

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please excuse the "paragraph fail..."

something seems broken in the “publish” button on BCB.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 1:30 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

For the record...

when I speak of “blowhards” I’m not talking about the people here that I tend to disagree with. I’m talking about the asshats in this town’s sports media.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 2:12 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

But Shawn what happens if those asshats yell really loudly all the time?

How do you make them stop yelling For these blowhards, would taking away their spray tan do the trick or just insight a riot?

Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...

by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 30, 2009 3:58 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why isn't Mitch Brinks

working on some sort of commission? Isn’t that standard for sales jobs?

As far as Bradley goes, you’ve never heard me say anything bad about him other than I think he’s fragile. Oh, and his defense isn’t too hot anymore. But I’ve never bitched about his bat, which I knew would come around. Good work.

by Josh77 on Aug 30, 2009 3:11 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Was Mitch Brinks brought in to get the big accounts?

If he was brought in to the “Big Guy” for sales, you know the guy that gets the 300 Thousand to 325 Thousand in sales annually with 25-35 Referrals, and he only brought in 200-265 Thousand with only 12 referrals would you still call Mitch a successful salesman or would you say he came up short?

Do I need to explain the comprasion or do you get it?

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Aug 30, 2009 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not a salesman so I'm not going to make somethign up for on base percentage or wOBA.

But the point it is that regardless of what he was signed for he’s going to produce his value this year.

Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...

by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 30, 2009 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

a sale

is a sale is a sale.

"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Aug 30, 2009 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The words of a Used Car salesman

A sale is a sale is a sale

So $1 million sale=$100 thousand sale=$100 sale?

Of course not. A salesperson you have to perform to what you are contracted for, not what you are expect to do.

Expectation are dealt with during contract phase, once you get hired on, you are paid to perform to contract, just like in baseball. Bradley was brought in to be middle of the order hitter and to add protection to D-Lee, A-Ram, & Sori, in case one of them went down.

Bad Luck Bradley went cold the same time that D-Lee went cold. Guess who gets the hassles? The new guy or the guy that’s been with the “Company” longer, and help take the “Company” back to what was expected?

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Aug 30, 2009 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Bad-luck Bradley"?

is this a new nickname you’re trying to get to stick?

Fact is, Bradley had one bad month, two mediocre months, and now has finished a very good month. He’s shown consistent improvement. That’s not the kind of salesman you want to fire, not in the toughest sales-district in the country.

"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Aug 30, 2009 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wasn't meaning it that way but...

Have we beaten this Sales thing to death yet?

Oh what the heck:

For Mr. Brinks his rep now is that he is a small fish salesman, not what the suits had hired and to customers, he just isn’t good enough either. Good, bad, or indifference he is labeled, first impression being what it is and all.

Yes Mr. Brinks does a good job selling widgets to Ma & Pa but for what he is getting paid we expected him to sell to IBM and Walmart. Doesn’t matter that he made a sale to Sears and Intel, we wanted him to sell to IBM & Walmart and he did not come through.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Aug 30, 2009 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And to add to it

Mr. Binks complains about the office space he has to work at, because the customers come in and complain about how he goes about his job. Not really making nice with the people who pays his salary.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Aug 30, 2009 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

not only

is Mr. Brinks a medium fish salesman, he also sets up much bigger sales that require more than one salesman to complete. Sales TEAMS sell to IBM and Walmart.

"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Aug 30, 2009 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes and the suits...

expected Mr. Brink to finish the deal, not to make copies and phone calls setting up the meeting. We can pay a low level $10.50 an hour employee for that, We shall call him Robert Terrance, to do that grunt work. For the kind of money Mr. Brinks makes, he needs to be in the room closing the deal.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Aug 30, 2009 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is where you're wrong.

Bradley is producing just fine. There is really only one number that’s still been low since the All-Star break, and that’s RBI’s. He’s hit 5 HR’s, which is a little low, but his SLG is high enough.

At this point, one has to cherry-pick numbers to criticize Bradley’s on-field performance. That’s exactly what you’re doing.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, I think his stats are just fine

I just don’t like him, his first impression was poor and now his complaints, valid as they (maybe he just phrased it wrong for me), have turned me sour on him.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Aug 30, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you.

At least you are willing to admit that it’s not this guy’s in-field play that is the problem.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh I've stated it before

I wanted him to succeed, in the offseason when we signed him, but he stumbled out the gate and then every one of his problem led me back to what he did on other teams. Argue with an ump, SD, get hurt, TX and such.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Aug 30, 2009 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm aware of his past issues

but his issues here haven’t been that bad.

The worst thing he’s done is tell the truth about the fans in Wrigley.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Like I said

add that into the poor start, the injuries, and the arguing with umps, it is a sum of the events, not just the events alone.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Aug 30, 2009 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right, I get that.

Put those all in the negative column. They’re not on the same order of magnitude in importance as his positive contributions on the field.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Truth?

No, Bradley has given his perception of fans in Wrigley. And because he has been so negative about them, it has increased the fans distaste for him.

by FrankSereno on Aug 30, 2009 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and many of the fans were engative to him

before he was in a jersey being announced at the press conference. both sides have played a part in this

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Aug 30, 2009 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

get hurt?

he hasn’t been on the DL all year. He’s had little niggling injuries that he’s recovered from quite well, or did you fail to see him beat out a grounder he hit to SECOND BASE?

"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Aug 30, 2009 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh, for pete's sake

if he’s not getting on base, Lee and Rami don’t have anyone to drive in. Which explains, perfectly, why RBIs are a team stat.

"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Aug 30, 2009 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I get it, but the problem is...

If you’re using batting average and HR’s as your metrics (which I think you are) they don’t translate as well as “annual sales” do. I used the numbers I used because they’re the best ones out there. Why would you use something other than $$$ values in measuring a player’s worth?

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, he is sub-par defensively...

but not by much. And he’s stayed healthy, which has been a nice surprise. Since the start of June, he’s been a very good ballplayer.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Damn you and your stupid "facts"

I know what I see and I see that Milton Bradley is really, really, really, really underperforming. Oh, and I can tell that his teammates don’t like him because it’s obvious. And it’s also obvious that because they don’t like him, it’s affecting the team’s chemistry and making them play worse.

You know what’s better than a guy like Milton Bradley? Mark DeRosa! What’s his wOBA? Probably like a million.

by Holtzmaniac on Aug 30, 2009 7:12 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

You've made your point statistically quite well.

But there are, as you know, other factors involved. Sometimes the attitude problems trump the production. This may be one of those times.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al on Aug 30, 2009 7:14 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

but it hasn't.

because he’s producing. “Making sales”, as it were.

You’re focusing on the fringes. Focus on the body of work.

"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Aug 30, 2009 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

How much do you think his attitude problems are worth?

I’ll take the answers in wins, runs destroyed, or $$$$.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wanna use that Matrix in football?

Then let’s get TO and Marshall. To heck with attitude problems, lets get WR that can produce on the field.

What say you all?

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Aug 30, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Marshall, yes.

Owens, no.

Of course it also depends on how much you give up. But if he were released by the Broncos at 1 PM today, Jay Cutler and Jerry Angelo would be lighting up his cell phone by 1:01… as they should be.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't Cutler cry his way out of Denver?

What will happen to him if stumbles out of the gate?

What if succeeds?

Winning cures everything.

If Bradely hit .300 with OBP around .400 and hit 10 HR, he’d get some freedom, but he came out poor and this what you get.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Aug 30, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Winning cures everything.

I agree with that. If the Cubs were winning this wouldn’t be an issue. If Bradley was hot in April and May but cool now, he also wouldn’t be getting as much flak. But combine the disappointment from the team with his slow start and history of off-field problems and he was an easy scapegoat. The booing and jeering he received then led to more off-field problems, which has made the bad side of the equation larger.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd also say...

that he hasn’t been that bad here, attitude-wise.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Barry Bonds?

How bout we bring him in?

PRODUCTION GALORE!!! Who’s with me?

"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."

by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 31, 2009 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd love it.

Oh you don’t want one of the top 5 players ever to play the game? I’m sorry I thought the object of baseball was to win.

Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...

by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 31, 2009 11:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How'd that work out for SF?

How many WS did they win with him?

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 1, 2009 7:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Damn near got one

Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.

by nji232 on Sep 1, 2009 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just like that bum Ernie Banks

Who’d want Ernie Banks in his prime on their team? What a bum.

by Wreckard on Sep 1, 2009 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bonds in his prime, sure.

Bonds at age 45, having not played for two years? Forget it.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al on Sep 1, 2009 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm obviously not advocating us signing Barry Bonds

I’m just disputing the silly notion that WS wins can some how be use as the measure of a single player.

by Wreckard on Sep 1, 2009 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd agree with that.

If WS wins made great players, David Eckstein would be in the Hall of Fame.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al on Sep 1, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

bradley

bradley is stepping it up now but where was he for 4 months. whining about reporters and this and that. and now he plays the racism card. if we cant trade him this winter maybe next year he will just shut up and play. obviously a good player just not a good person. bad attitude everywhere he has been.

by NOMAR on Aug 30, 2009 7:24 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

that is extremely unfair

first of all go look at his month by month splits. He was only awful in April. Second, are you really going to throw a guy under the bus for one bad half season? C’mon man, Bradley isn’t the first player to have a bad first half and then step it up and he won’t be the last.

by CalCalender on Aug 30, 2009 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Particularly not in Wrigley...

where a lot of guys had horrible starts to their Cubs career.

Where would we be today if we over-reacted to Derrek Lee’s horrendous April in his first season here?

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How do you factor in a salesman...?

That destroys the coffee maker when he doesn’t make a sale?

That gets suspended by the SEC (or whatever oversight body exists in this little metaphor) for arguing rulings?

That insults customers who don’t buy his product?

That insinuates colleagues aren’t being honest in their dealings with trade magazines?

Here’s another example, the company’s star salesman, who is in the middle of a down year — worst of his career — was kept in the office instead of going to the field.

His replacement, a guy who really is bad at paperwork and sometimes fumbles when playing defense against other salespeople, but can bring home the cash, had a great day.

That star salesman pulled the kid aside and told him to have a great day and was the first person to cheer when the kid came back from the office with a huge deal.

That above metaphor describes Soriano’s dealings with Fox yesterday.

The REAL question is not whether Bradley is playing well, but whether he is worth the trouble he brings.

Make no mistake, if he is gone next year, the media and fans will get blamed.

But if Lee, Dempster, and a few others went to management and said, “We NEED this guy” then he will be here.

But if they let it be known that they don’t care, or want him gone, then bye-bye.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Aug 30, 2009 7:28 AM CDT reply actions   2 recs

The REAL question is not whether Bradley is playing well, but whether he is worth the trouble he brings.

The answer is personality means nothing when talking about value. You’re talking about whether he’s an asset or not. To measure that you can’t just assert that his ‘baggage’ is not worth his production. I’ll save you the time, you can’t prove it all you can make is nebulous claims with no evidential support.
Also about the coffee maker, he’s about the 10th salesman to destroy the coffee maker. If it was that big of a deal half the staff would have been fired.

Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...

by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 30, 2009 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So would you want Marshall or TO on the Bears?

The High output but High Maintenance players?

Wanna ask McNabb or Romo about the importance of “nebulous claims” to team chemistry?

And don’t give me the garabage about “Well Football is Different than Baseball” we are talking about team sports, Team as in more than one player.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Aug 30, 2009 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nope

I don’t believe TO (for all the stuff he says) had much of a negative impact on on field performance. If you look at Football outsiders, he was actually a below average receiver last year. McNabb and Romo can talk about chemistry all they want, but once again those claims are nebulous and don’t factor much into value. Just the look at the Raiders under Maddon. They had the biggest bunch of douchenozzles on one team and they still won.

Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...

by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 30, 2009 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

TO still draws double coverage

TO is still a top 25 WR, though I hate the SOB.

Just becase a player can do something doesn’t mean he is worth the “baggage” he brings.

TO = Bradley

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Aug 30, 2009 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Honestly...

do you think “chemisrty” has equal importance in both sports?

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes I do

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Aug 30, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't, but...

this is the sort of thing that is difficult to show conclusively one way or the other so I won’t argue about it.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Aug 30, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

TO = Bradley

This is a completely ridiculous suggestion.

by Wreckard on Aug 31, 2009 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bradley seems to dislike the attention.

TO is drawn to it like a moth to the flame.

Totally different situations, totally different dudes, totally bad comparison.

Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Aug 31, 2009 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would disagree

Both bring unwanted attention to themselves. Both are pretty decent players. Both get their managers/coachs pretty upset.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Aug 31, 2009 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

TO throws his own teammates under the bus

TO gets in trouble for excessive showboating, wearing a different team’s jersey in public after getting beaten by that team, called his team classless, insinuated his quarterback was gay, accused his next quarterback of not being tough enough, may have tried to commit suicide, and has spit on another player.

TO deliberately creates drama, and coaxes rifts between himself and other players. He’s on a completely different level from Bradley.

by Wreckard on Aug 31, 2009 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Bradley doesn't blame other teammates.

Bradley doesn’t show up his opponents. He has only had problems with 3rd party people, umps and fans.

Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...

by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 31, 2009 11:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll tackle these one by one...
That destroys the coffee maker when he doesn’t make a sale?

Easy. Dock his salary for the price of a coffeemaker. Even if you don’t do that, a $100 coffee maker won’t make a dent in the money Mr. Brinks is bringing in.

That gets suspended by the SEC (or whatever oversight body exists in this little metaphor) for arguing rulings

Easy. You don’t pay him for those days. Hrmmmm… this actually happened with Bradley.

That insults customers who don’t buy his product?

If they keep coming back, and it doesn’t affect his sales or those of others why would I care?

That insinuates colleagues aren’t being honest in their dealings with trade magazines?

I’d pull him aside and say “stop that.” If that didn’t work, I’d have a conversation with the trade magazines. My PR department can deal with the repurcussions if this guy is a good enough salesperson.

Here’s another example, the company’s star salesman, who is in the middle of a down year — worst of his career — was kept in the office instead of going to the field. His replacement, a guy who really is bad at paperwork and sometimes fumbles when playing defense against other salespeople, but can bring home the cash, had a great day. That star salesman pulled the kid aside and told him to have a great day and was the first person to cheer when the kid came back from the office with a huge deal.

That’s great! I don’t see the relevance to my analysis of Mr. Briggs, however. That other guy — it’s Adolphus you’re talking about, isn’t it — sounds fantastic. I’d make sure his health issues are taken care of.

The REAL question is not whether Bradley is playing well, but whether he is worth the trouble he brings.

I agree. Personally, I think he is. The trouble he brings is certainly something real, I just don’t think it’s anywhere near the amount of good he brings with his bat.

Make no mistake, if he is gone next year, the media and fans will get blamed.

You can be damn sure I’ll be blaming the fans and media for that if it happens.

But if Lee, Dempster, and a few others went to management and said, "We NEED this guy" then he will be here.

Isn’t that how it should be?

But if they let it be known that they don’t care, or want him gone, then bye-bye.

Again… if the whole roster wants him out, shouldn’t he be gone?

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

yeah, you'll blame the media and fans

Simple solution.

If he’s gone, it’ll be because team leaders WANT him gone, not because of any fan or reporter.

But blame the media. It’s the crutch of the simpleton.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Aug 30, 2009 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll blame the media...

because it’s full of simpletons.

Look if the rest of the team wants him out of there, then I’m fine with getting rid of him. But you’re assuming that will be the case. You don’t know what the team “leaders” will say about this.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

just look at Kaplan's latest piece

He thinks the team “has to trade Harden.” That’s such a gross misunderstanding of baseball economics, it’s laughable.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Worf

calling shawn a simpleton. hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

by CalCalender on Aug 30, 2009 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

This team has leaders?

Glad to hear it. They certainly keep a low profile though.

I like the number of people over the past week or so who have stated without question that Bradley is hated by his teammates. Exciting to have that kind of insider knowledge.

by the nth on Aug 30, 2009 11:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bradley is a fine #2 hitter but

What was he signed to do?

How much does the average #2 hitter make?

How many #2 hate the city they are in?

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Aug 30, 2009 9:06 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

why do you

care so much where people bat in the order? Bradley was signed to play baseball. Period.

by CalCalender on Aug 30, 2009 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be fair,

he was signed to be a middle of the order force.

 I’m not blaming Bradley for that, outside of April, he’s performed pretty close to his career norms. It’s Hendry’s fault for bringing him in to be something he wasn’t. Would you hire a carpenter to do an electrician’s job ?

I, for one, appreciate the hustle, the effort and the passion this guy brings to the field. As for all the other issues, they wouldn’t be issues if everyone, including Bradley, would just be quiet.

by Southside Steve on Aug 30, 2009 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right - Bradley was brought in to do two things he doesn't do well...

1) be a middle of the lineup guy
2) be a LH power bat

He’s always been more of a high OBP guy with some power (but not a masher). But he’s also always been better as a RH hitter than a LH hitter, and the Cubs got him for his LH bat.

That said, I don’t know that I believe he’s the problem. I think Soriano, Soto, the bullpen, and the injury to Ramirez (not necessarily in that order) have been the problem. Bradley is the media scapegoat.

by SouthernCub on Aug 30, 2009 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Though I'll add...

that Bradley has made it easier for him to be the media scapegoat with his battles with the media.

by SouthernCub on Aug 30, 2009 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with this.

Just as I think booing is stupid, I think a lot of Bradley’s interactions with the media have been asinine. He wasn’t going to accomplish anything with many of his statements but bring more scorn upon himself. I respect him for being honest, but sometimes being open isn’t very wise.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed. Bradley has made it easy for the media to hate him.

Just as the ever-available DeRosa made it easy for the media to love him.

Just as the cheerful scrappers like Theriot (many a base running blunder this season that would make Moises Alou wince) and Fontenot (not a major league player) are allowed to skate under the media’s radar.

by the nth on Aug 30, 2009 11:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

rec'd well said...
That said, I don’t know that I believe he’s the problem. I think Soriano, Soto, the bullpen, and the injury to Ramirez (not necessarily in that order) have been the problem. Bradley is the media scapegoat.

This pretty much sums up the Cubs’ season… If this team were winning, we wouldn’t hear a peep about Bradley.

Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.

by IowaCubs- on Sep 1, 2009 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He spent most of 2008 as a 3-hitter

And has more career at bats at 3, 4, 5 and 6 than he does at 2.

I don’t think it was entirely unreasonable to think he would be hitting 5th.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Aug 30, 2009 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But Worf...

….the fact that Hendry said that he expected him to bat anywhere from third to fifth is not an indication that he was brought in to drive runs home. Obviously that was a clue that the Cubs were planning on turning one of those middle-of-the-order spots into a second leadoff position. You’re taking away from the OBP argument, and that’s going to make Bradleytologists angry.

Clearly he was brought in just to get on base – the sole quantification for playing good baseball.

"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."

by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 31, 2009 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Batting order has been shown...

… to have very little, if any, effect on the outcome of games.

Whatever he was brought in to do, he came here with the history of being a high OBP guy who’s power numbers were inflated by where he played last year. If management screwed up and thought he was somebody he wasn’t, so be it.

Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Aug 31, 2009 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

THERE...

….we have agreement.

Management CLEARLY intended him to be the LH RBI guy (hence the #3-#5 in the order comment by Hendry). That is not his forte’.

I do NOT blame Bradley for that – not at all. But management needs to correct this misread for 2010.

"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."

by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 31, 2009 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bradley wasn't brought into be an RBI guy.

Hendry never ever said that. EVER!!! He said good LH bat. That is what Bradley has been.

Find Hendry saying RBI LH bat and I’ll concede that I’m wrong, but I’ve already spent an hour looking through articles of the signing and can find nothing of the sort from JH.

Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...

by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 31, 2009 11:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What would you recommend?

… and I agree with Buzz. A quote supporting your contention would be nice.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 31, 2009 11:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

For sure.

This may have been a fan created perception. I remember it being talked about, but never in any official way.

Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Sep 1, 2009 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is a tired, tired cop-out.

Hendry said he envisioned Bradley batting anywhere from 3rd to 5th – hence, it is implied that he was brought-in to drive in runs. If it were anyone but Bradley, or any neutral situation, this would not be something up for debate – that being whether or not the #3-#5 spots in the order are where you put guys to drive-in runs. Of course it is.

Just because you can’t find some unlikely direct quote showing that Hendry SPECIFICALLY signed Milton Bradley to be an RBI guy doesn’t mean that it was obviously not the reason he was signed.

I for the life of me could not find a single article with a direct quote from Jim Hendry specifically identifying ANYONE as having EVER been singed specifically to be an RBI guy – which by your logic obviously proves that Jim Hendry has never, ever signed anyone to ever be an RBI guy – a gross oversight for a GM. How could Jim Hendry never, ever sign a guy to drive-in runs?

Despite claims by the Bradleytologists, I actually was unable to find any direct quote from Jim Hendry saying he signed Milton Bradley to play “good baseball” – which obviously shows that claiming Bradley was signed to play “good baseball” is a fan created perception.

Clearly, since there is no quote and we’re not allowed to use common sense, Bradley was not signed either to produce RBIs or play good baseball.

"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."

by The Jade Scorpion on Sep 1, 2009 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

No, since there is no quote...

… you can’t really assume what Hendry’s intention was in bringing Bradley here. That includes the assumption that he was brought here to be a middle of the order RBI machine. In fact, anybody assuming he was brought there for that not only lacks a quote to evidence it, but assumes so in spite of his history, which shows him to be a guy who gets on base more than anything.

No matter Hendry’s decision or the reasoning for it, i’m sure he’s happy to have him, at least in August.

Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Sep 2, 2009 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just an FYI

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/jan/09/sports/chi-09-cubs-milton-bradley-chicajan09

"He’s exactly what we needed in the middle of the lineup," general manager Jim Hendry said.

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory?id=6604968

He’ll fill the Cubs’ need for a left-handed bat in the middle of the order and will be used mostly in right field even though he has played 100 games in the field only once in his career — in 2004 with the Dodgers.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090221&content_id=3862408&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

“Once I got hitting in the middle of the order, I liked having that pressure on me, so I feel I’m better suited for that,” Bradley said.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 2, 2009 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

so...

none of those quotes talk about producing RBIs. I spect Hendry’s quote in particular is about bringing a left-handed bat to break up the righties, which was a priority for Lou in the offseason.

Either way, he’s found a spot batting second, and he’s continuing to get on base at a rapid clip.

"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Sep 2, 2009 8:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are correct but

the statement was: " No, since there is no quote you can’t really assume what Hendry’s intention was in bringing Bradley here…"

I believe that was an incorrect statement.

 “In fact, anybody assuming he was brought there for that not only lacks a quote to evidence it, but assumes so in spite of his history”

Once again, an incorrect statement.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 2, 2009 8:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

um. I'

"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Sep 2, 2009 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

dammnit.

I guess I’m not sure where you’re building this case then.

His history doesn’t show him as a huge RBI producer. It does show him as a big run-scorer — ie, he’s the guy being driven in by the batters behind him.

If we can’t establish Hendry’s motivation from the quotes, how do we establish his motivation?

"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Sep 2, 2009 9:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The statement was

There were no quotes as to what Hendry intention was.

I posted quotes that stated what his intention was a middle of the order LH hitter.
Even Bradley states that he prefers to hit in the middle of the order. The news stated that he was brought in to be a middle of the order LH hitter.

Let’s review what a middle of the order hitter is:
(I used Wikipedia as it explains it in the simplest of terms, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batting_order_(baseball) )

The third batter, in the three-hole, is generally the best all-around hitter on the team, often hitting for a high batting average but not necessarily very fast. Part of his job is to help set the table for the cleanup hitter, and part of it is to help drive in baserunners himself. Third-place hitters are best known for “keeping the inning alive”. However in recent years, some managers have tended to put their best slugger in this position.

The fourth player in the batting order is known as the cleanup hitter, and is almost always one of the best hitters on the team, often the one with the most power. Baseball managers tend to place hitters who are most likely to reach base ahead of the clean-up man, so that the fourth batter can “clean” the bases by driving these baserunners home to score runs. His main goal is to drive in runs, although he is expected to score runs as well. In fact, the fourth spot in the order has the luxury of being somewhat “protected” from bad situations early in the game: the batter only rarely faces a spot with two outs and no baserunners in the first time through the order—possible if, for example, one of the first three batters hits a home run and the other two make outs. If nobody gets on base, the cleanup hitter has a chance to start a rally in the second inning by being the first batter, with zero outs. However, hitting cleanup also requires an exceptional level of talent, and the ability to deliver big hits in important situations (such as the bases loaded with two out).

The fifth and sixth (and sometimes seventh) batters have traditionally been RBI men, with the main goal of driving runners home, especially with sacrifice flies. Modern sabermetric baseball theory suggests that even these batters should have high on-base percentages, though this approach has not been universally adopted. The fifth batter is usually a team’s second-best power hitter, and his purpose is often to “protect” the clean-up hitter in the batting order. He is expected to pose enough of a threat that the opposing team refrains from intentionally walking the clean-up hitter in potential scoring situations.

So Hendry bought Bradley in because he believed, and Bradly reinforces with comments, the best hitter on the team (that would be Lee), The most powerful hitter on the team (that would be A-Ram), or a threat to protect #4 hitter or an RBI person (today the Cubs used Bradely but several people have been in this spot through out the year).

Now it does state that in recent times some managers put the player with the best OBP there, but you would agree that he has not produced in the fifth spot.

So did the Cubs get what they paid for with Bradely?

Read my next post for my answer to this question.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 2, 2009 10:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Answer to my question

Hitting with RISP: .230 with 37 RBI

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/246855-time-for-teams-to-take-reality-checks

Cluth (How much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment.): -.05 putting him 11 out of 26 for RFers.

Let’s talk about value, of the 26 players listed at fangraph for RF he is listed as 14/26 (meaning that 13 Players are worth more)

His OBP is outstanding 2nd overall for right fielders with a .398, but lets look at his wOBA (weighted on base average) he has a .364 putting him 13th.

But one of the most telling number is Replacement (explained here http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/win-values-explained-part-four): Bradley has a 14.1 which makes him 25/26. Meaning every other RF is more valuable than Bradely expect Ordonez.

Milton Bradley is an average to sub-average player.

Not exactly what Hendry or Lou envision spending $30 million on.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 2, 2009 10:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did you read your own link?

“Replacement” doesn’t tell you that Bradley was the 25th-best RF’er in baseball. On the contrary, it just says he’s ranked2 5 when it comes to staying on the field. Most of that low ranking is his early-season slump, not his health and ability to stay on the field. So you’re double-dipping there. So it’s not really that telling at all.

by shawndgoldman on Sep 2, 2009 10:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Replacement means

that if MB went down and was replaced by a free agent, a 4A type ball player, that it would cost the Cubs 14.1 runs, which puts him as the second lowest RF in MLB.

It would hurt the Cubs lost MB, but if another RF went down it would cost his team even more.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 2, 2009 11:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're totally misunderstanding the stat.

Check it out… From the link you posted!

As Sean showed in his article, and has been shown elsewhere, the expected value of a replacement level player is about negative 20 runs per 600 PA. Or, to phrase it a bit differently, if you lost a league average player and replaced him with a freely available guy, you’d lose about two wins. That’s why the replacement level calculation in our Win Value formula is 20/600*PA. If you get exactly 600 PA during a season, your replacement level adjustment will be +20 runs. If you get 700 PA, your replacement level adjustment will be +23.3 runs. The more you play, the higher the replacement level adjustment, because you’re filling a larger quantity of playing time and that chunk won’t need to be filled by anyone else.

“Replacement” has everything to do with playing time and nothing to do with playing level. The other stats cover that.

by shawndgoldman on Sep 3, 2009 1:10 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So it doesn't matter

that he wasn’t on the field to produce those other great numbers as much as other RF?

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 3, 2009 8:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, it does matter.

The issue I have is that you’re making “replacement” be a stand in for “total value.” And that’s just incorrect.

by shawndgoldman on Sep 3, 2009 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

...and clutch

is not a repeated skill beyond perhaps a few walks per season (literally). So although he’s been poor with RiSP this season that doesn’t mean that he’s a poor hitter with RiSP. I hope you can understand the difference between those two things.

by shawndgoldman on Sep 2, 2009 10:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And yet

his Career Norm is -1.03, so to speak this has been a good year for him for being clutch. Either way he is not, nor has he ever been known as clutch.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 2, 2009 11:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But that assumes...

“clutch” is an intrinsic ability? Do you believe this? The best work on this to date has shown that the most clutch hitters add about 2 wins per season to their team’s totals on behalf of being “Jeterey.” Anything more than that is likely poor luck, not poor nerves.

Here’s where I got the numbers from:
http://www.tangotiger.net/clutch.html

by shawndgoldman on Sep 3, 2009 1:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

All of sudden

What happend to that Fanpost that made of fun of people that use stats as the only way to argue on BCB?

The stats you are using shows he’s about average while my stats shows he is about average.

Where is the issue?

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 3, 2009 6:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's been about average as a RF this year

Sure, I’ll grant that. But he’s still worth his contract. You also kept citing stats that showed him to be 25/26 out of all RF’ers. That ranking is what I had issue with.

by shawndgoldman on Sep 3, 2009 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you by the way.

Your comments earlier today stated that I post nothing other than, “Milton Bad, he sucks”. No facts or supporting information. Well I decide to do research, and thank you for point out Fangraph. Because of you, you have turned my personal feelings that MB isn’t worth it, to me finding supporting documentation.

Thanks for the kick in pants

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 2, 2009 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Using stats...

and using them properly within a reasonable context are two totally different things. All you did was found a bunch of stats in which Bradley was low-raking and quoted them.

If you put the whole package together, he’s been worth his salary. It’s that simple. Really.

by shawndgoldman on Sep 2, 2009 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I compared Milton Bradley to the other RF in MLB

Shouldn’t we be rating him versus other RF in MLB? Just because he is near career norms doesn’t mean that he is a good RF or hitter.

OBP in itself tells you the hitter gets on base, great! Does he generated Runs? Is that not tracked by RBI’s and Runs? MB has 37 RBI and 58 Runs. Compared to other RF he is 8th in runs and 23rd in RBI’s.

As I stated he is a average to sub-average player.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 2, 2009 11:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gah...

I’m not just using OBP. I’m using WAR and $ value. These numbers take into account EVERYTHING the player does, from offense to defense to staying on the field to the position they play.

You keep cherry-picking the few numbers Bradley is below average at – RBI’s, RiSP, and “replacement.” I’d also question the utility of those numbers compared to other ones, but that’s a whole different argument.

The point is if you look at the whole on-field package as I have, Bradley has been well above average and a useful player worth his salary.

by shawndgoldman on Sep 3, 2009 1:21 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If I may...

It sounds like Shawn is coming up with a favorable assessment of MB’s worth against his salary, while Gaclaudy is coming up with an unfavorable assessment of MB’s worth against his position, i.e. all the other RFers. Is that a fair observation to make?

What makes this subthread intriguing is I’ve seen discussions in the past where folks come up with favorable assessments of Soriano by comparing him against other LFers, and seemingly ignoring his salary.

Shawn, I don’t know where you stand w.r.t. Soriano, but I’d be curious to know if you put the whole package together – is Soriano worth his salary?

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Sep 3, 2009 12:18 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Soriano *was* worth his salary.

but this year, he isn’t even worth my salary! His “value” is at -$2.2M. That’s a negative. Oof.

The last two years Soriano had outperformed his contract, and it was shaping up so that he’s outpace it through year 3. But he’s just been abysmal this season. I suspect that’s primarily due to injury, and that he’ll have a very nice rebound next season.

by shawndgoldman on Sep 3, 2009 1:13 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The problem is...

the numbers gaclaudy are using are cherry-picked. He’s only talking about the numbers Bradley is poor at. What’s worse, he’s mis-interpreting the numbers and making them seem more important than they actually are.

If you want to rank MB amongst RF’ers, he’s been the 14th-best in MLB by WAR/or $ value. That’s not great but not bad, either.

by shawndgoldman on Sep 3, 2009 1:18 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which I have stated

MB isn’t a super outfielder, he is an average to sub-average RF.

Now I’m not giving MB a high enough praise?

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 3, 2009 6:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

well, for one thing

you’re ignoring how his slow start early this year has effected his
yearly numbers, and you don’t seem to be comparing any of that to his
career numbers.

"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Sep 3, 2009 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And you

are place all the emphasis on just two months, I’m counting all Five months. Why is that you can say that his first three don’t count and that’s ok? I’m taking in account his body of work for the entire season. You don’t like his first 3 months, fine I say his last two month shouldn’t count as they are not what he had produced for this year.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 3, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because the last months...

… are comparable to his history as a player, where the first two are not. All the evidence points to those crappy months being the outliers, possibly resulting from a hard adjustment to a new team and city, or possibly just a good old fashioned slump.

Should we rid ourselves of every player who doesn’t live up to their potential for a couple of months? DLee?

Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Sep 3, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought we were only deal in numbers

and any other items didn’t matter. What other areas make up “the package”?

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 3, 2009 8:05 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sorry, I was imprecise.

By the whole package I meant I was using numbers that take into account all the aspects of Milton’s play. You were just looking at one or two pieces at a time, such as playing time or RiSP.

by shawndgoldman on Sep 3, 2009 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

well

I’m glad you’re using the numbers, but it’s important to use them properly.

Shawn knows about this stuff way more than I do, so I defer to his judgment.

"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Sep 3, 2009 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, god.

Way to cherry pick.

There is no indication that he was brought here to be an RBI machine.
Yes, the intention was to put him middle of the order, but that had more to do with his ability to bat from the left side than his ability to bat runs in. That was Lou and Hendry’s doing, not Bradleys. The "Once I got hitting in the middle of the order, I liked having that pressure on me, so I feel I’m better suited for that," quote is from freaking February. He’s adjusted quite well to the 2 spot. Why ditch a guy who is producing just because he isn’t producing what you thought he would?

The fact is, he had a history of being a certain type of player, and he’s lived up to that history here, with the exception of an adjustment period early in the season.

We can shoulda woulda coulda all we want with that $7 million, but the fact is if you were to take four or five players (non-pitcher) from this team in to next year, you’d want Bradley along with Rami and DLee and Dome.

Bitching because he’s batting 2nd instead of 3rd or 5th is irrelevant. I suspect you are smart enough to know this, but chose to ignore it anyways out of some disliking for the guy that is probably based on his injury prone history or the reputation as a volatile jerk. He hasn’t really displayed either of those things, at least to the point that they are detrimental to the team you cheer for, so maybe its time to just let them go.

Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Sep 3, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You too for cherry Picking his OBP stat only

What is the purpose of a hitter? To generate runs, yes or no?

Let’s take a look shall we:

D-Lee Run production (Runs + RBI) = 158
Alfonso Soriano = 119
Ryan Theriot = 116
Fukudome = 111
Bradleys Run production = 95
A-Ram Run production = 78
Fotenot = 72
Geo Soto Run production = 52
Koyie Hill = 43

He is number five on the list of run production for the team this year, in the middle something that could be replaced.

Now lets compare him to other RF in the leage shall we:

Abreu = 186
Werth = 160
Markakis = 169
Either = 165
Upton = 148

Shall I keep on listing them?

I said Bradley is an average RF (by the way his UZR is -2.0 and UZR/150 is -3.3) and an above average hitter in some cats while below average in others.

Maybe it is time for you to let go the idea that Milton Bradley can not be replaced on the team without hurting the team?

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 3, 2009 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hahahahahaha

R + RBI, the best stat ever.

by Wreckard on Sep 3, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are right

the stat is crap, like all the stats. I don’t think Bradley is valuable to the club, as do 261 other people (The vote on th front page) while 153 people agree with that he should be kept. You can quote stats that support your position and I’ll quote stats that support mine. You call me cherry picking I call you cherry picking. You say his first 3 months were not what we can expect from Bradley, I say you must firgure for all his playing.

You like Bradley, I do not. When you go off about how dreamy his OBP is and what he does for the team, I will suggest that he can be replaced.

We will leave it at that.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 3, 2009 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

the stat is crap, like all the stats

All stats are crap? Wha?

You can quote stats that support your position and I’ll quote stats that support mine. You call me cherry picking I call you cherry picking.

If only there were some kind of statistic that we could use to assess a player’s overall value, then all of this would be moot.

When you go off about how dreamy his OBP is and what he does for the team, I will suggest that he can be replaced.

Good lord you’re obsessed with that. Where do I do anything like this? Please site even one example of me “going off” about Bradley’s OBP.

I don’t think Bradley is valuable to the club, as do 261 other people (The vote on th front page) while 153 people agree with that he should be kept.

So player evaluations should be done democratically now?

You say his first 3 months were not what we can expect from Bradley, I say you must firgure for all his playing.

You keep saying that we’re not accounting for that, but the fact is that any argument that’s been made which uses WAR or $WAR absolutely takes into account Bradley’s first 3 months.

At this point the question isn’t about 2009 any more anyway; it’s a question of what to do for 2010. Any projection system worth its salt will take into account Bradley’s first 3 months… and his last 3 months… and his previous 6 seasons of professional baseball. Bradley’s definitely going to have lower expectations because of his struggles…. but those first 3 months will end up looking largely like an aberration to any system anywhere. As well they should.

by Wreckard on Sep 3, 2009 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So player evaluations should be done democratically now?

No but people are allowed to voice their opinion or only your opinion may be voiced?

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 3, 2009 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Where did I say they couldn't be voiced?

You’re doing that thing you do again, resorting to reductionism and waving your hands around about something no one actually said.

by Wreckard on Sep 3, 2009 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I stated that certain amount of people

agree with an opinion. You turned it into the Club’s player evaluation system, which it wasn’t intent to do. So what do you call it when you overblow something?

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 3, 2009 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

....an opinion of a player evaluation.

You were listing it as somehow being supportive of your viewpoint. My point was that the popularity of a viewpoint has no bearing on its legitimacy.

So what do you call it when you overblow something?

We’ll just have to wait and name that if it ever happens.

by Wreckard on Sep 3, 2009 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I said 261 people agreed with a thought of mine

Other than people that though alike, is their anything in the statement that said that those 261 people decided on the talent for the Cubs?

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 3, 2009 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

At this point I have no idea what you're even talking about
Other than people that though alike, is their anything in the statement that said that those 261 people decided on the talent for the Cubs?

I never suggested either of us was saying that. You’re making stuff up and stomping around about it again.

I’d explain to you what I meant but I already did that in the post you just replied to, so at this point I’m just going to assume it’s a reading comprehension issue.

by Wreckard on Sep 3, 2009 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 3, 2009 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe you just want to minimize my opinions as they are not in line with yours

Hey it’s ok for us common folk to have our own opinion, we don’t have to all think you edu-cated folks, some of us ordinary people like to believe our own things, you know.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 3, 2009 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're not "allowed" to use bad stats

like RBI+R to support your opinion. That is based off of luck and doesn’t fully capture a players’ value.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Sep 4, 2009 3:02 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Alrighty then

Good lord you’re obsessed with that. Where do I do anything like this? Please site even one example of me "going off" about Bradley’s OBP.

I’m wondering what they’re paying Milton Bradley to do this year.
As I’ve told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 10, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

a lot more than they pay you and me but still a lot less than Sori to do a little more than MB
by cubsnlinux on Jul 10, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
 
To have the 2nd-highest OBP on the team
by Wreckard on Jul 10, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2009/7/10/943414/the-next-big-series-of-july-cubs#18036153

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 3, 2009 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A throwaway comment 2 months ago is going off about it?

You’re stretching so far at this point that you should consider joining the Fantastic 4.

by Wreckard on Sep 3, 2009 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Was your statement

“Good lord you’re obsessed with that. Where do I do anything like this? Please site even one example of me "going off" about Bradley’s OBP”?

Now you wish to backtrack by all means you may.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 3, 2009 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Again, how is that "going off about Bradley's OBP"?

You characterized Bradley’s OBP as something that I go on and on about, but the best comment you could find to support this assertion is a one-line comment from 2 months ago.

It’s cute that you’re trying to play gotcha here, but I’m not sure even you know what you were trying to say any more.

by Wreckard on Sep 3, 2009 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You know

I just realized that no matter what I say or post, I’ll just have “reading comprehension issue” to you (Come on man, grab a pair and just call me stupid will ya?) I wish you well, I do not agree with you opinion but I will die to protect your right to voice it. I will stand by my opinion. Enjoy your weekend

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 3, 2009 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just realized that no matter what I say or post, I’ll just have "reading comprehension issue" to you

No, I’ll only think that when you distort what people said and then argue against that distortion. That’s something you do a lot.

(Come on man, grab a pair and just call me stupid will ya?)

Look, just because I think that you have a tendency to misrepresent people’s viewpoints and commit more logical fallacies than a 14 year old in civics class doesn’t mean I think you’re stupid. I mean, Francisco Pizarro was illiterate and he was smart enough to conquer the Incas. And lots of smart people believe indefensible things, simply because they believe them. It doesn’t make them stupid, but it doesn’t make them right either.

by Wreckard on Sep 3, 2009 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Alright you win

I will not post about MB again. You can continue to insult me if you wish, but to what purpose I do not know.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 3, 2009 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe he can be replaced without hurting the team...

… but at what price?

Why would we let an average hitter (this, again is debatable… you twist your numbers one way, i’ll twist mine another) and an average fielder who is, statistically at least, earning his paycheck, go? So we can add another highly paid free agent and hope he works out, just like we did with Dome last season and MB this?

And all of this completely ignores the fact that Bradley isn’t this team’s problem. Why everyone wishes to harp on him as Sori languishes, Soto continues to suck, Lou looks lost, the bullpen is a gamble, and the middle infield blows is beyond me.

Hendry’s (and your) time would be better spent focusing on the players that you can’t bring yourself to admit are average. He isn’t hurting the team doing what he’s doing. Others are.

This game is old. Keep the players you’ve got that are performing and work on the positions that suck. Whining about MB on a team that includes Miles and Soriano in the middle of an epic meltdown is frivolous.

Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Sep 3, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What has Bradley done for this team?

Did he help get them into the playoffs? (Sori, Lou).

Did he bring postive attention to the team? (NL Rookie of the year Soto)

Has he been a stalworth for the team over the years? (Lee and A-Ram)

Has produced wins for this team? (Zambrano, Demp and Lilly)

Has he earned anything more than his paycheck by being average?

Someone get the shaft and who hasn’t earned anything for this club yet?

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 3, 2009 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am sorry

If I don’t give MB the same leeway that D-Lee, A-Ram and Sori have built up by being with the teams the last few years. Just by MB putting a Cubs jersey he should get the same kind of love as a player who has been with the team for a couple years? Where’s your love for Miles then? Where’s your love for Gregg?

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 3, 2009 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Miles and gregg...

… don’t show a lot of potential to be great players for this team.

Bradly is doing great for this team AS WE SPEAK.

Your logic is failed. You’d be better off just saying “i don’t like bradley” and leaving it alone. At least then you aren’t spewing a bunch of stuff the more rational of us can dispel.

Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Sep 3, 2009 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are entitled to your opinion

I chose to disagree with it. You may say that “The train has left the track” with me or to quote someone else that I have “reading comprehension issue.” (Why not just come straight out and call me stupid?, really at least that I can respect). I will stand by my opinion as you are entitled to stand by yours. I wish you all a good weekend.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 3, 2009 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

HE'S IN HIS FIRST SEASON!

and he’s earned his paycheck by producing at a level that is worth more than his contract is worth. Why is this conept so hard to understand?

by shawndgoldman on Sep 3, 2009 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Please read above comments

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Sep 3, 2009 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

They don't make sense

What exactly is your argument?

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Sep 4, 2009 3:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And so was Miles

And he played baseball, let’s resign for 3 years for 30 millions dollars.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Aug 30, 2009 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

are you seriously

comparing Miles’ performance to Bradley’s and coming up even?

"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Aug 30, 2009 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

All I keep reading is

Milton Bradley is paid to play baseball, which he did.

Well under that same token Miles played baseball (He just slumped all season he will get back to career numbers next year), Marmol (Once again slumping this year, next year…yada yada yada) or Soto (Yada Yada Yada).

Anyone on the team is paid to play baseball and they did, maybe not well, and we can just throw out certain numbers (like a month or year) and state they are close to career numbers.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Aug 30, 2009 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think

you’re applying the numbers correctly.

"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Aug 30, 2009 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No numbers need

The statement is “Bradley is paid to play baseball”.

Well so are 24 other people.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Aug 30, 2009 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I certainly wouldn't do that --

And I even hate to draw this comparison, but you know who is hitting

Felix Pie – .791 OPS through 83 games, and he’s really turned it on since he started getting regular AB in the last month — his August splits are incredible.

.333 / .394 / .651 / 1.045, 5 HR, 13 RBI.

Suddenly, Hendry’s offseason is looking even worse than before.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Aug 31, 2009 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, well

I feel differently about that. Sigh.

"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Aug 31, 2009 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Differently about what?

Differently about the decision to trade Pie in a series of moves that netted us Aaron Heilman?

If we’re going to give Milton credit for his August, then we have to give Pie some credit for his August, which has been substantially stronger.

Through bad luck or bad planning, almost every move made during Hendry’s 2008-09 offseason has looked miserable.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Aug 31, 2009 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well

at the time, there was no way to predict that Pie could do what he’s doing. I absolutely give him credit for an ever improving year. I wish he’d done it last year, and then a whole lot of this angst would be gone.

"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Sep 1, 2009 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well see if I can top it then

How about dumbestestest

That should take the cake.

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Aug 30, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How about this?

Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

By this logic...

we should also consider Fukudome a failure and kick his ass to the curb with Bradley.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can we?

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Aug 30, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No.

He’s been worth more than his contract, as well.

This team has a lot of problems offensively. Fukudome and Bradley are not amongst them.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dang it!

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Aug 30, 2009 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does that mean Fukudome and Bradley are underwater?

Can Obama bail the Cubs out too?

The sun will shine in '69

by gaclaudy on Aug 30, 2009 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

They're doing fine.

There are other teams in much bigger need of a bailout.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think you understand what under water means

I think you have it backwards.

Soriano’s contract would be “underwater” – he’s worth less than what we owe him.

by Wreckard on Aug 31, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Adolphus Scranton?

What was Reginald Pennyworth not available?

by CalCalender on Aug 30, 2009 9:34 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

LSA

great work Shawn. There are quite a few who will be scratching their heads, creating a reply, and then pontificating why you are wrong. I can hardly wait.

It will start with the infamous “yabbut……”

by socalbob on Aug 30, 2009 9:58 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Question: Did Mitch get paid the entire $40,000 signing bonus this year?

If so, then why do you pro-rate the bonus over the length of the contract for evaluation purposes?

What if the signing bonus were $86,000 and his ‘salary’ for the first year was the standard salesman minimum of $4,000? Would you still pro-rate it the same way?

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Aug 30, 2009 10:02 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I'd put the entire signing bonus in the first year if it were paid up front (as I believe it was)

But even so, Bradly has been worth about $7.3 million in value so far according to Fangraphs. He’ll be close in value to the $9 million he was paid.

The bigger problems this season have been Soriano (who has been worse than replacement level this season despite costing $16 million), the injury to Ramirez, and Gregg/Heilman/Miles being at or worse than replacement level. And to a lesser degree, Zambrano hasn’t earned the big contract he’s gotten. Dempster will end up almost exactly at his $12 million value.

Bradley’s season is turning into a repeat of Jacque Jones’s first year – terrible start, but finished strong. But didn’t fill the role that fans had hoped for him, and the majority of fans never got over the awful start to realize that he wasn’t the problem.

by SouthernCub on Aug 30, 2009 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure how the Cubs paid it out...

but the standard in baseball contract analysis is to average out the signing bonus over the terms of the deal.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know that's typical for football salary cap calculations.

I’ve never seen it done with regard to baseball contracts, however. It’s certainly illogical. What is the advantage of pro-rating the signing bonus in this case?

It seems readily apparent that the “signing bonus” 2009 money was designed to even out years 1 and 2 in the deal. For that matter, it was the only cash in the entire deal that was given upfront — why prorate that money?

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Aug 31, 2009 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's because...

that up-front money is an investment made for the remainder of the contract. The question is how they actually pay out that signing bonus. If it was all up front, I’m fine counting it all towards this year. If that’s the case, Bradley’s season this year should come close to his salary in terms of production value.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 31, 2009 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've still never seen that done before.

Signing bonuses are paid upfront, at the time of signing. I don’t know why you’re calling it the “standard” – who does this?

In the NFL, they prorate the signing bonus because salaries are not guaranteed, which caused most star players to want the bulk of their contracts in the signing bonus (so that they’ve already been paid the upfront money if they get cut. In that case, prorating the signing bonus over the years of the contract creates a disincentive to cutting a player, because the prorated signing bonus still outstanding becomes “dead money” against the cap.

In baseball, however, there is no salary cap. And salaries are guaranteed. So the only reason to prorate the signing bonus is to artificially deflate the true value of a particular contract and pretend it’s lower, which is just kind of silly for this discussion.

And finally, even Milton’s “strong finish” has been pretty mediocre. It seems we’ve found his calling as a slap-hitting OBP machine, but then again, we already had one of those, and that guy was a far better RF.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Aug 31, 2009 10:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

See below.

only half of Bradley’s bonus was paid at signing. The second half will be paid next season. So to be fair his salary this year is $7M. The crazy thing is with his hot streak, he’s already surpassed that.

I was using Fangraphs as the “standard,” as they seem to do the most analysis along these lines and that’s what they use when calculating contract values.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 31, 2009 11:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm...

Thankfully, only half-years count. Otherwise we’d have to measure MB by the whole year’s performance.

I wonder if my job would give me a mulligan on the first half of the year.

Hopefully Aaron Miles can come around in the closing weeks and double his production, thus earning him complete grace for the season and a starting job here next year. At the very least, maybe he can defeat any arguments against him by simply bringing-up his statistical value in the final weeks close enough that we can say he was technically worth his salary. Case closed!

But I digress; I’ve said before Bradleytology is a religion to which I simply cannot convert – and challenging religious faith never goes well. Just gets you yelled at.

My old car didn’t start very well in the winter, but worked well in warm weather. I guess I should have just kept it, since I could easily justify its value based on other 12-year-old GM vehicles. After all, if I can technically argue that it’s dollar value was about equal to market that year, I’ve pretty much defeated any argument towards even trying to trade-up!

"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."

by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 30, 2009 6:39 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

who says

only half years count. But the guy has consistently IMPROVED over the course of the season. If he can perform the way he did in July and August, next year all year, he’s absolutely worth his contract.

"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Aug 30, 2009 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm the one bringing facts and numbers to the argument.

So don’t say i’m acting on faith. I’m acting on reason and logic. You’re the one that’s clinging onto a position despite evidence to the contrary.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 11:32 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

If you can upgrade, i'm all for it...

i just can’t see how you’re going to do it for $13M/year.

And the Aaron Miles analogy is ridiculous. Unlike Miles, Bradley has a track record of being a very good player at the MLB level. The 2nd half is more in line with his career than the first half. So it makes much more sense to expect the second half numbers to be what we get going forward.

Which MB do you expect to show up, numbers wise? The one from April and May or the one from June onwards?

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which MB do I expect to show up, numbers wise?

Year-Team-G-AB-R-H-2B-3B-HR-RBI-BB-SO-SB-CS-Avg.-OBP-SLG-OPS
2004 LA 141 516 72 138 24 0 19 67 71 123 15 11 .267 .362 .424 .786
2005 LA 75 283 49 82 14 1 13 38 25 47 6 1 .290 .350 .484 .834
2006 Oak 96 351 53 97 14 2 14 52 51 65 10 2 .276 .370 .447 .817
2008 Tex 126 414 78 133 32 1 22 77 80 112 5 3 .321 .436 .563 .999
2009 ChC 109 338 56 91 16 1 11 36 66 80 2 3 .269 .401 .420 .821

I would “expect,” based on the last five years about:

100-110 games played,
.270 average,
.390 OBP
13 HRs
50 RBIs
0.820 OPS
about .270 BA with RISP.
Sub-par defense.

And frankly, I’d like the team to try and do better.

"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."

by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 31, 2009 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you're under on the HR's and RBI's...

and also leaning too heavily on counting stats.

But if he puts up an .820 OPS and plays average-ish defense he’ll be a good, useful player that’s worth more than his contract even if he only plays ~100 games.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 31, 2009 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

More than the 13-million?

at .820 OPS and only 100 games?

"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."

by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 31, 2009 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let's see...

You’ve got him with an OBP of .390. That means his SLG would be .430 in your “projection.” In that case, his wOBA would be something like .416 (fairly rough estimate). League average is usually around .330, so he would be .086 better than replacement. That’s good for about 0.086/1.15 = 0.075 runs/PA. Let’s use 650 PA’s for a full season. You’ve got Bradley accruing almost exactly 400 PA’s. 400 PA’s * 0.075 runs/PA = 30 runs above replacement. That’s a 3-win player on offense alone. If we’re very conservative and assume NO inflation between 2008 and 2011 (a poor assumption) then those 3 wins will be worth $13.5M, or just about his contract value. He’d be worth about -$0.5M due to his fielding and position.

So even if Bradley only plays 100 games, does what you expect (which I consider to be an underestimation), and there’s absoltuely NO inflation in the baseball FA market, he’ll still be worth his contract.

Thanks for helping me prove my point!

by shawndgoldman on Sep 1, 2009 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

League average for

wOBP for RF is .330? Wow!

"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."

by The Jade Scorpion on Sep 1, 2009 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I assume that's for everyday players, too?

Or are we assuming the Cubs would automatically replace Bradley with someone below .330 OBP?

"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."

by The Jade Scorpion on Sep 1, 2009 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're way off here.

First off, it’s wOBA which is a different stat entirely. Google it or look on fangraphs or the book blog.

Secondly, you apply the position adjustment separately. When you combine that with MB’s fielding, you get about -$0.5M in value.

by shawndgoldman on Sep 1, 2009 11:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A .390/.430 line is equvielant to about a .370 wOBA

I’m not sure where you got .416 from.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Sep 2, 2009 1:18 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That of course means your valuation of Bradley is wrong

If he’s a .370 wOBA guy with +5 defense in the corners, that’s a 3.2 WAR player per 600 plate appearances or 150 games. In 100 games, that makes him a little over a 2 WAR player.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Sep 2, 2009 1:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

In that case it all comes down to playing time...

if he can play a full season (or close to it) he’ll be worth his contract. If not, he probably won’t be.

Inflation in the baseball market should also add about 10%/year to the value of a win, if the trends from 2002-2008 hold. (Maybe they don’t depending on the economy.) Assume they do for a moment. In that case, a 2-win player will be worth ~$10M next season and ~$11M in 2011. That’s a little under MB’s salary but not disastrously so.

by shawndgoldman on Sep 2, 2009 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

10% is extremely aggressive for any market.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Sep 2, 2009 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Baseball is apparently an extremely aggressive market.

I was as surprised as anyone when I saw that data, but that’s what it’s been over the past 6 years or so.

by shawndgoldman on Sep 2, 2009 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I might have done it wrong.

I found a thread where Tango was converting OBP and SLG to wOBA and reverse-engineered the relative weights of the two. It was something like 0.67*SLG + 0.33*OBP. That seemed “backwards” to me… how do you go from those two numbers to wOBA?

by shawndgoldman on Sep 2, 2009 8:41 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks...

and good luck in the playoffs! :-/

by shawndgoldman on Sep 2, 2009 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sub-par defense

Compared to what exactly? He’s slightly below average this year, but up until now has been “par” at worst.

And frankly, I’d like the team to try and do better.

And who – specifically – would be available and would be an improvement? No hand-waving, let’s hear some names.

by Wreckard on Aug 31, 2009 6:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

We've been over this:

Bay, Holliday, Abreu, et al via FA
maybe a few via trade (Wells, etc.).

Despite your portests, I find it hard to believe it is IMPOSSIBLE to do any better for next season.

"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."

by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 31, 2009 7:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You know Milton Bradley plays RIGHT field.... right?
Bay, Holliday, Abreu

If not that would explain all of this confusion.

by Wreckard on Aug 31, 2009 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, I do.

There’s no reason any of these guys, or Fukudome, could not play LF.

"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."

by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 31, 2009 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

RF

Grrrrrr…….typos

"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."

by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 31, 2009 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wait wait wait...

did you just suggest the team acquire Vernon Wells over Milton Bradley?

And you think Bradley is overpaid?

I appreciate your sense of humor. That was a joke… right? Right?!?

by shawndgoldman on Aug 31, 2009 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

... and furthermore...

I’m not “throwing out” his first half. It’s part of the calculation!

Despite his woeful firs half, he’s still be worth his salary when the whole year to date is taken into account.

But if you must cling to your religious crusade against the man, don’t let me stop you… ;-)

by shawndgoldman on Aug 30, 2009 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And the car that didn't start in the winter...

….is still worth market value now. However it did start year round, years ago. So I guess I should expect that summer perfomance next winter. After all, why wouldn’t I just expect the same perfomance?

"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."

by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 31, 2009 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So you think it's all

age-induced regression? Is this your argument? I just want to be sure what you’re saying here….

by shawndgoldman on Aug 31, 2009 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's no spring chicken....

….that’s true. #2 starting next year, and the career injuries probably make him “older.”

What I’m saying is that expecting him to produce a great year next year – at the age of 32 – is a little different than expecting one from him coming off a “bad-first-half/arguably-good-second-half” if he were 27.

Add to that the odds of having even two healthy years in a row – while playing the OF.

"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."

by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 31, 2009 7:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"#2" = 32 years old

"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."

by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 31, 2009 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Please tell us how you would judge the Raul Ibanez signing by the way
Thankfully, only half-years count. Otherwise we’d have to measure MB by the whole year’s performance.

Since that’s who you wanted instead.

by Wreckard on Aug 31, 2009 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Technically,

I wanted any of the names mentioned instead: Dunn, Ibanez, Abreu, et al.

And yes, Raul has cooled off:
April OPS: 1.151
May OPS: 1.027
June OPS: .870
July OPS: .884
August OPS: .594

.870+ OPS in every month except August. If Bradley had done that. there would probably be less argument over production – which we all know is entirely measured on OBP.

"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."

by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 31, 2009 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which would you rather have...

a lineup full of players with an OBP of 1.000 and SLG of 1.000

or

a lineup full of players with an OBP of .500 and SLG of 1.500?

by shawndgoldman on Aug 31, 2009 6:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A lineup of players with an OBP of 1.000....

….basically never gets an out.

To be entirely honest, I’d take a lineup of .300 OBP guys if they also hit .333 with RISP.

"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."

by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 31, 2009 7:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And I'd take a lineup full of Carlos Lee and Adam Dunn types

Besides all the home run balls I’d be adding to my collection, I’d be back in pretty good shape after having to run back-n-forth between Waveland and Sheffield all the time.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Aug 31, 2009 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL

Okay…I’ll actually take Bradley over another year of the HR-or-nothing clubs of yore.

"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."

by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 31, 2009 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Precisely!

This is why OBP is valued more than SLG. At the extremes, OBP is much more valuable.

by shawndgoldman on Sep 1, 2009 12:12 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

... and what would you do the following season...

when their OBP was still at .300 but their RISP dropped to match their .280 batting averages?

If you don’t know the answer to this question, I’ll give you a hint: you’d lose.

by shawndgoldman on Sep 1, 2009 12:13 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He hasn't budged from 3 WAR since a month and a half ago. He's been a replaement level player for about a month and a half now.

Regression to the mean is a cold bitch.
h/t to someone at ACB

Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...

by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 31, 2009 11:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Btw to all
The contract will pay Bradley $5 million the first year, plus half of a $4 million signing bonus

Even if you choose not to Prorate the signing bonus he’s still only MADE 7 Mil this year (you still should prorate the signing bonus in terms of looking at value, but if you must…). Also been worth 7.7 Million as of today.
So with more than a month to go he’s providing a 700,000 surplus in value for what he’s being paid this year.

Argument over!

Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...

by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 31, 2009 3:30 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

two great quotes from that article:
“I said, ‘I have to be honest with you — we’re going to get one more good player who hits from the left side,’” Hendry said of a conversation he had with Fukudome at the end of the 2008 season.

Bradley is coming off a season in which he batted .321 for the Texas Rangers and led the American League in on-base percentage. He could bat anywhere from third to fifth, depending on how Cubs manager Lou Piniella wants to break up right-handed hitters Derrek Lee, Aramis Ramirez and Geovany Soto. Expect a lot of questions about the lineup at next week’s Cubs Convention.

While Bradley has proven he can handle Major League pitching, he also has to deal with his past, which has been interrupted with less-than-flattering incidents with fans, teammates and the media. Hendry did his homework, and asked a lot of people about the sometimes volatile outfielder. He got nothing but glowing reports.

“The opinion that he wouldn’t be a good teammate or he would be a disruption in the clubhouse couldn’t be further from the truth,” Hendry said.
Bradley has worn No. 21 since rookie ball. There’s a reason for that.

“You can’t wear 42 anymore,” he said of the number officially retired by Major League Baseball in honor of Jackie Robinson. “I’ve always said, 21 is half of 42. If I could be half the player, half the person Jackie Robinson was, then I will have been a success.”

"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Aug 31, 2009 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would just like to know where JH said that he's supposed to be a "Run Producer"

“Or an RBI guy.” You will find that no where. If you can find where JH said he got him to be a “run producer” or “RBI man” (No matter how stupid those definitions are) I’ll conceed. They said they wanted a good LH bat. This year he has had a good bat in terms of his overall numbers.

Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...

by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 31, 2009 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So 3rd-5th in th order..

…is the new second leadoff position, then?

"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."

by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 31, 2009 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who cares how he bats or how he obtains his value?

as long as he obtains it?

What if he is aging a bit and losing some power, and has decided to be a more patient hitter to compensate for this? Wouldn’t that be acceptable? This is what Aramis Ramirez has done and what I hope Alfonso Soriano will do.

For the record, I think his power numbers will rebound the rest of the year and next year. The above is for argumetn’s sake.

by shawndgoldman on Aug 31, 2009 6:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really?

“For the record, I think his power numbers will rebound the rest of the year and next year”—-

Really? They’ll be good next year?
That’s what I heard about THIS year………..I seem to remember some people were pretty insistent about it, too………..

"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."

by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 31, 2009 7:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And you know what?
That’s what I heard about THIS year………..I seem to remember some people were pretty insistent about it, too………..

They were right!

Milton Bradley career slugging… .453
Mliton Bradley, slugging since the All-Star Break… .484

by Wreckard on Aug 31, 2009 8:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm confused again.

Is he going to rebound, or has he been doing so well that he doesn’t need to?

"Bite my shiny metal ass!" -- Bender Bending Rodriguez

"Life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead."

by The Jade Scorpion on Aug 31, 2009 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He has rebounded!

… and I expect him to continue the production levels he’s put up since the all-star break, with a little regression to the mean.

by shawndgoldman on Sep 1, 2009 12:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

3rd or 5th does not mean RBI

He he wanted a good LH bat that is all, no stipulations on RBIs. That is all.

Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...

by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 31, 2009 11:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Btw this argument is over

He’s worth his value as the best statistic on $$ value has spoken (WAR and value based on WAR)
worth 7.7 Million
Being payed 7 Million.
That is that.

Those are the only two stats you need to know because anything else more taxing might explode your brain casing.

Monopoly, twenty-one, checkers, and chess...

by Buzz on the Moon on Aug 31, 2009 11:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't know that about his numbers.

Very cool. And topical, considering just this past weekend somebody here claimed MB should think about the hardship Robinson went though and shut up.

Clearly he IS thinking about it, and chooses to speak up when those racist taunts come in anyways.

Enough of that though.

Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Aug 31, 2009 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough. And thanks for finding this Buzz.

So for all you salary analysis stat-geeks and all us gut-instinct types, any discussions about whether Bradley is worth his contract should be based on the following breakdown:
2009 – $7M
2010 – $11M
2011 – $12M

Seeing as how it’s not my money (well, except for I suppose whatever minuscule percentage the few tickets I buy represents), I’m not that concerned about whatever his calculated worth comes out to be. I just feel a heckuva lot better seeing what he’s been able to do this past month or two. Nice to know what he’s capable of doing next year and 2011.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Aug 31, 2009 10:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

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