Dempster to the Pen???
by Don't Fear the Reaper on Aug 5, 2009 10:40 AM CDT
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Watching Baseball Tonight last night, John Kruk was suggesting leaving Gorzelanny in the rotation, and moving Dempster into the closer role he had a few years back.
I know yesterday's win was great, so we have an extremely small sample size for Gorzelanny as a Cub. He did look quite good though. If he were stay in the rotation, that would give the rotation 2 lefties (when Lilly comes back) and 3 righties. That seems like a good balance to me. It also allows Marshall to stay in his role withouth having to be stretched out. Dempster was a pretty good closer, but he did have his problems here an there. Maybe it would give Gregg some time to get his head cleared up and back into a more effective role. What says BCB???
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so what?
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 5, 2009 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions
I could see doing this in the postseason.
Maybe.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Postseason...
I wouldn’t mind seeing Harden close one out.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Aug 5, 2009 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions
Meh
The problem with that is, you’re going to have a rookie in your 3-man postseason rotation, unless you’re going to pitch Gorzy or Marshall in that rotation, which is unlikely. When Hardens on, he’s unhittable.
"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver
by wrigleyrocker12 on Aug 5, 2009 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions
Talk about teeing it up...
When Hardens on
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 5, 2009 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions
I understand
But the thing is, it’e either Harden, or a rookie.
"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver
by wrigleyrocker12 on Aug 5, 2009 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions
You whiffed on the Badger's pitch.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
It sailed
waaaay over his head.
A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.
Juuuuuuuuuuuuust a bit outside
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 5, 2009 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Randy Wells isn't just a rookie.
He’s Randy Wells!!!
Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.
MINI LILLY?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Agreed - I only speculated on this yesterday
if he wasn’t one of the top three starters on a playoff roster as he’s been too good for long relief and has experience as a closer.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
You have to get there first
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 5, 2009 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions
I suggest Kruk...
Stick to NutriSystem commercials, and leave the bullpen ideas alone.
Someday we'll go all the way...
He also said
The Cards were going to take the division because the Cubs don’t have 3 good hitters in the middle of their lineup. When’s the last time he’s looked at this roster?
"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver
by wrigleyrocker12 on Aug 5, 2009 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions
It's true that we have only one hitter who's dominant
But the lineup has solid bats throughout. I’d take that over having a great middle of the order but being weak elsewhere.
The idiocy of generalization rears its ugly head
I realize Kruk sees this: Ludwick/Pujols/Holliday≠Lee/Ramirez/Bradley(Soriano)… oh wait…. I just made myself sad.
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
based on this season
He’s right. Does that mean you need to stick to NutriSystem commercials now?
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 5, 2009 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Based on Post-ASB...
He’s wrong. And the present is all I really care about.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Aug 5, 2009 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh hai Mr. Kruk...
I’d like to introduce you to Derrek Lee, Aramis Ramirez, Jake Fox and Alfonso Soriano.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Aug 5, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Unlikely
I know people aren’t happy with Dempster’s performance this year, but he hasn’t been a disaster.
In fact, he’s not been much different then this other Cub starter.
He signed as a starter, and his performance has not shown that he shouldn’t continue to do so. He prefers to start and he’s doing the job; let him.
If there were a glaring need at closer and he were the best option, then it would be something to consider, but I don’t think it’s time to write of Gregg just yet. As much as we liked Gorzelanny’s start, it was one game.
Kruk had a nice playing career, but he’s not an insightful analyst. He’s just talking to talk.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 5, 2009 10:47 AM CDT reply actions
+oo
And don’t forget he’s still carrying his daughter’s illness baggage. I would’ve taken a leave from my job if something that horrible happened to my family (God forbid, knock on wood), but he stuck it out.
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
True true
Now that she is home, maybe his production will increase a little.
by Don't Fear the Reaper on Aug 5, 2009 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions
not only did he fight thru it
you never once heard him use it as an excuse
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Agreed.
Demp’s obviously not putting up the ace numbers he did last season, but I never really expected him to. I see Ryan as a solid No. 3-type starter, who you can revolve a rotation around. His ERA and WHIP this season are just a touch under league average. He still has decent strikeout numbers. He’s thrown a ton of quality (or at least solid) starts. And, the freak toe thing aside, his health has been good. Forcing him back into the closer’s role – especially right now – would unfairly limit a guy who can still do this team a lot of good as a starter.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
so, he's basically league average?
is that equivalent to a ‘solid number 3’? i don’t think so. he’s more like a 4 or 5.
"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie
Actually, he's a touch above league average so far this season.
His ERA+ stands a 107. He’s a touch below league average career wise (96 ERA+), but he’s had a lot of ups and downs and pitched in several different roles.
In any case, he’s clearly capable of pitching better than he has so far this season and, when you couple that with the fact that he’s now a seasoned major league pitcher with an established history on the team, Demp just looks to me like an ideal, middle-of-the-rotation guy. Above him are the stronger starters, such as Z and Harden, and below him are rookies/younger guys such as Wells and Gorz.
All that said, I will admit that he could just as easily be considered a No. 4 in the rotation’s current configuration. Maybe “middle” is too literal of a word to use.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Moving Dempster to the pen would not be a reflection on his starting pitching
it would be a reflection on the problems with the back end of the Cubs’ bullpen. You move Dempster back to closer because he has demonstrated an ability to be a solid closer. If Gregg hits the skids, and Marmol continues to have little clue where the ball is going, the Cubs have few realistic alternatives to close. With the acquisition of Gorzelanny and the return (hopefully) of Lilly, the Cubs could afford to move Dempster from the rotation to the pen.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 5, 2009 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Those are the ifs, yes.
I acknowledged them:
If there were a glaring need at closer and he were the best option, then it would be something to consider, but I don’t think it’s time to write of Gregg just yet.
Ultimately, the team comes before the individual, and I think Dempster would take the ball and do the best job that he could. Unlike a certain other starter, who said that he’s “not a reliever”.
The other thing to remember is:
As much as we liked Gorzelanny’s start, it was one game.
I hope he continues to pitch like that, but I don’t think anyone’s ready to anoint him as a SP for the rest of the season.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 5, 2009 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions
No way
Dempster is much more valuable as a starter.
Gorzelanny has had one start. Not 5, not 4, not 3, not even 2. Just one.
There’s nothing wrong with having 6 starters, giving the problems some of our guys have when they don’t get adequate R&R between starts.
seven starters really.
marshall is probably about as good as gorzelanny. gorzo probably has more upside though
Please no
I thought Marmol was painful to watch cloes a game.
Gregg at times has been painful as well.
However, I cannot put myself through seeing Dempster have epic meltdowns in the 9th inning again. He’s been a solid starter and should be kept there please!
Let's not forget
Dempster’s lastest outing was what we’ve expected from him all season long. I think he’ll be just fine from here on out
Don't dismiss this so quickly.
Kruk did raise a good point. I saw the piece and it does have some validity.
On the premise that Lilly comes back strong and that Wells/Gorzy continue to perform, the Cubs would have 6 starters filling 5 positions. And if the back end of the bullpen continues to struggle, it is practical to place an EXPERIENCED CLOSER in the role.
This added arm allows the Cubs to move up an inning, perhaps having Gregg in the 7th, Marmol in the 8th and then Dempster at the end. No more Aaron Heilman in key spots of the game.
I’m not necessarily advocating the move, but it does provide food for thought.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
That's another reason to get BJ Ryan in the mix...
… if he’s capable. That would give the Cubs THREE experienced closers.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Let's not confuse "experienced" with "good"
That said, what are people hearing about Ryan? It seems he’s not been stellar (walks, hits), but he hasn’t allowed a run yet in a very small sample size. How’s his velocity?
Isn't BJ Ryan still throwing just 86 mph in the minors,
he’ll get lit up in the majors.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
The only thing that differentiates a "closer" from a "reliever"
is that a “closer” has been allowed to pitch in the ninth inning before. There’s no difference. I don’t buy the argument that the ninth inning is harder. All you have to do is get three outs. Middle relievers and setup men often pitch in tie games and with men on base when they enter the game.
I didn't know
That there was a set number of starters that a team could have.
Harden can always use an extra day or two of rest. And if they have enough days off, Gorzelanny could come out of the bullpen a few times.
It seems unlikely.............
………….the team will go any deeper than a 5-man rotation.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
However...
… they could slot Gorzelanny in occasionally to give guys like Harden & Wells extra days off.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Why assume that Gorzelanny can just move in and out of the rotation whenever?
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 7, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I think it's too early to make a call like this.
Nothing wrong with discussing it, mind you, but there are just too many pieces in play right now (Gorz’s role, BJ Ryan’s velocity, Lilly on the DL, Demp re-establishing himself from the DL, Gregg’s HR struggles and current achiness) to make a clear determination.
I would continue to stick with Gregg as the closer, assuming he’s not seriously hurt. At the risk of drifting into intangibles, I still think there’s a significant value in putting relievers in specific roles and leaving them there. Now the idea of making Demp the closer in the postseason does interest me – but, uh, let’s get there first.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
It's an interesting thought.
But I’d rather see the move to send Dempster to the pen made in August/September versus October 5.
Making a change that big would be a huge move, especially on the eve of the playoffs. Some would see it as a panic move, while others would say that the Cubs were upsetting the apple-cart far too late in the year.
Plus, making a change like that could affect the mentalities both Dempster and Gregg, which I’m not sure is the best thing to do.
I think this will sort itself out in a few weeks – whether it’s in leaving Gorzelanny as a starter and DL’ing a pitcher, or moving Gorzo to the pen and having 4 lefties there (imagine that). Something makes me think that this discussion will be a moot point come Lilly’s return from the DL.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
The Cardinals
did something similar in 06 but wainwright was at least pitching out of the bullpen when they made the move to put him as closer.
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Aug 5, 2009 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not sure it would be seen as a panic move in October.
Teams generally need only three starters in the playoffs, and Z-Harden-Lilly is pretty much a given (or so I tend to think). Moving Demp to closer would just be making good use of his skill set.
Then again, I do agree it would be a huge slap in the face to Gregg. In fact, I have a hard time picturing Lou suddently “demoting” his closer unless there was an injury involved.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
We might not see it as a panic move
But to the mass media that would descend on Chicago would hype the move for the 2-3 days leading up to the series. Headlines like “Piniella Distrusts Closer” and “Lou’s Big Move” jump to mind.
With all the scrutiny Piniella has received on how he’s handled his pitchers in the playoffs, I just don’t see him moving Dempster to the back of the bullpen. If Dempster doesn’t get a start for Games 1, 2, or 3, I see him being used as the emergency/long man.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Kind of like Ted Lilly was last year.
Oh, wait.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Precisely.
Let’s hope Lou learned from that experience…
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Lou's STILL saving Big Z for Game 4 vs Arizona
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
I'm a proponent of the "go with what got you there" theory
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 5, 2009 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions
we’re caught in the Intangible Current! We’ll never avoid the Potentiality Rapids now!
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 5, 2009 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Quick! Grab that overhanging VORP branch and haul yourself to shore!
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Of course it is, but the team needs to be thinking ahead
and the idea of moving Dempster to the closer’s spot, is one worth pondering.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 5, 2009 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions
...which is why I said there's nothing wrong with discussing it.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
Kevin Gregg has shown that for the majority of the season...
…he’s been very solid. He’s had two recent meltdowns, but haven’t we learned yet that we shouldn’t judge him too quickly?
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
Agreed
I need to see more failure out of Gregg before I make any closer move.
We were 5 outs away from the World Series with Joe Freaking Borowski. I’ll take my chances with Gregg.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
exactly
and Dempster was not exactly lights out as a closer. People were all over him in that role, then all over Wood in that role, now they are all over Gregg in that role. See a trend?
BTW Dempster as a closer
2005
ERA——-G——-SV——-SVO
3.13——-63——-33——-35
2006
ERA——-G——-SV——-SVO
4.80——-74——-24——-33
2007
ERA——-G——-SV——-SVO
4.73——-66——-28——-31
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
2008 was piss poor, but
2008 and 2007 are good when you consider his save %. Look at Fernando Rodney this year. Horrible stat line expept he has only blown 1 save opportunity, and it was this past week.
by Don't Fear the Reaper on Aug 5, 2009 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions
2008 was Wood
i hope you means 2006 was bad, but he was good in 2005 and 2007
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Save percentage is not a predictor of future success.
A good save percentage with a lousy stat line just means the guy has gotten lucky so far.
true
blown saves is the same, you have to figure out why he blew them (bad d, walks, etc).
IIRC demp pitched himself into a lot of trouble and often was lucky able to pitch out of it
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
John Kruk proves again and again that he should probably keep his mouth shut
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
by Ace Venom on Aug 5, 2009 12:59 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I can only hope that we have a problem of too many good starters.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Aug 5, 2009 1:26 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Its not a bad idea...
…but, its one of those you consider for a moment and then go, “I think we better do something else.”
Thinking of this shows that somebody is thinking, which is good… but, I right now, switching Demp to the bullpen wouldn’t be good for him and then the team.
There was a reason
People called Ryan, “Ryan Dumpster” when he was a closer.
People still call him that.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
They're mean?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 6, 2009 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Gorzelanny pitches Harden's day games.
Get the best of both worlds.
Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.
how about suggesting carlos Zambrono go to the pen net
take it easy
why care about a bloggers grammar
no matter how much you hate me you still read and comment me
Posts like this are why you shouldn't post when you are angry
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 6, 2009 8:29 AM CDT up reply actions
What's the "pen net"?
Is that like the “Inter net”?
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
I'm waiting for the day when the Cubs win the pen net
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 6, 2009 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Turn it green!
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
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