Second Base..(2010)
by jlb2609 on Aug 7, 2009 7:46 AM CDT
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PrintI know that all of us Cubbies are hoping for a nice upgrade at second base well, it looks like we may have to wait until the summer..I know it is far into the future and there is stil plenty of the 2009 season to play but i just thought I;d post this and check out what you all thought about this idea.
Los Angeles Times - Orlando Hudson will head into free agency this winter and a return to the Dodgers may be unlikely.
Hudson was an All-Star last month and has emerged as one of the best second baseman in the National League.
He has brushed off talk about where he'll play in 2010, "at the end of the season. ... Right now I'm just trying to win."
Los Angeles signed Hudson to a one-year, $3.38 million deal coming off a wrist injury in 2008.
thoughts??
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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It's easy to spend money
when it’s someone else’s. I expect new management (if applicable) to limit Hendry’s acquisitional spending power this winter. While some contracts will come off the books (Harden, Heilman), I think a return to the $100/110 million range will be expected, though probably not immediately. Would OHud be a good get? Yes. Do I think replacing the Fonty/Baker platoon will be a high ownership priority with a large current payroll? Not so much.
At some point, our younger, cheaper kids will have to step in and perform.
by tim815 on Aug 7, 2009 8:13 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
good response
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 7, 2009 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions
You hit it on the head
Considering some of the depth we have at the position in the minors, it might be worth it to keep the platoon we have now and just wait until some of that talent is ready. Hopefully it’s by around midseason
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
What younger kids?
Our minor leagues have to be among the worst in baseball. The Cubs talent development system is a laughingstock.
by zam on Aug 8, 2009 1:56 AM CDT up reply actions
The farm system is actually getting better...
The talent in the lower minors is showing life. The AAA team is pretty devoid of potential, but remember that we’ve picked it clean the last few years (Theriot, Soto, Fontenot, Fox, Hoffpauir, Wells, Guzman).
There are a number of guys who could be decent MLB players in a few years, though admittedly still not many star-caliber players. We just need the guys who are projected to be very good (Vitters, Castro, etc) to pan out, and maybe catch a few more breaks in a similar fashion to Theriot.
by SouthernCub on Aug 11, 2009 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
There does seem to be signs of life in the lower minors
hopefully some will pan out as big league ballplayers.
BTW, Fontenot was as much a product of the Orioles’ farm system (they drafted him) as the Cubs.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 11, 2009 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Quote from the article
He has brushed off talk about where he’ll play in 2010, “at the end of the season. … Right now I’m just trying to win.”
We should do the same.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Post edited...
… to put the quote from the other source in a quote box.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Better title too?
You can't win in the postseason unless you can manufacture runs. - Hall of Fame 2B Joe Morgan
The title's OK...
… it does give an idea about what’s inside.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You know you opened up a can of worms with this
2nd baseman? Jees, who could play 2nd base? Hmmmmm….
Hey how ‘bout that guy in Baltimore? When the O’s are hopelessly out of it again by Memorial day in 2010, how ‘bout trading for that guy say, I don’t know….about July 25th.
Just win the next game...!
I his defense, at least I haven't heard Hudson name thrown around yet.
You can't win in the postseason unless you can manufacture runs. - Hall of Fame 2B Joe Morgan
Maybe I should have said,
“I’ll open the can of worms”. :^)
I tried throwing Hudson’s name around during last offseason just a little. But it appeared there was no way this was going to happen. I’m not sure why but I think that some folks thought the Cubs wouldn’t sign him because he was a type-A FA.
Just win the next game...!
At the time
I remember thinking he was going to draw in a big contract. Not what we needed at the time. And we also thought that Fontenot was going to be an adequate 2b.
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Wasn't he asking for $8 mil/year or something?
I think Hudson got caught up in teams’ (somewhat) reluctance to spend big bucks during the off season. If I recall, he was coming off an injury as well. He signed late and cheap with the Dodgers.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Aug 7, 2009 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions
what about
AARON MILES?
He can throw a fastball at 87MPH and make you look like a fool. He can spray lines drives to right field. He can put up with crappy offense and take the loss. He is Randy Wells. He is the most interesting pitcher in the world. Stay healthy, my friends.
by jesus christos on Aug 7, 2009 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree
He obviously is the future and should be signed to a 6 year deal right now. LOCK HIM DOWN!
Tweeting about the Cubs most of the time from @jmkobus
GETITDONE JIM!!!!
He can throw a fastball at 87MPH and make you look like a fool. He can spray lines drives to right field. He can put up with crappy offense and take the loss. He is Randy Wells. He is the most interesting pitcher in the world. Stay healthy, my friends.
by jesus christos on Aug 8, 2009 1:15 AM CDT up reply actions
Never to early to fire up the hot stove
Hudson has done very well in LA. He’s had some injury problems, so I wouldn’t be excited about giving him a long-term deal. But a structure similar to what was given Bradley this year might be what it takes to get him (2 years guaranteed, 3rd year that kicks in with PT).
However, if the Cubs are going to upgrade without trading away a big-money guy, second base seems like the spot. I don’t think Hudson fits what this lineup needs.
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
In the Cubs' case, though
we might as well give Fonty and Baker all season to see if they are a viable option, something I’m not ruling out.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Aug 7, 2009 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions
I'd prefer to look at shortstops
and let Theriot go back to 2B
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Good idea
While Theriot is not a bad SS, moving him to his more natural position (2b) would be good for him and the team.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 7, 2009 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions
question and not being snarky
why do you say his more “natural” position? He has been a SS his entire life—Little League, High School, College, and the Pros. He has never been a 2B. Is this because he throwing arm is not Dunston-esque? Are you saying he would be a better fit for the Cubs at 2B? Just curious. Trying to understand you take. Thanks.
Yes
By “natural position”, I believe they are talking about his arm. And I agree with them. He has a below average SS arm, but a perfectly adequate 2B arm.
One thing though, if you go get a SS, you are probably getting a weaker bat than if you get a 2B. Assuming comparable money. You are paying for that SS’s arm/defense.
Ball 4!
by californiachicagoan on Aug 7, 2009 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions
ok
let me ask you this—how has his below-average arm cost the Cubs? He makes all the plays. I don’t recall his arm as being the problem. I thought it was his range which has been disproven by the UZR metric.
I feel, and yes this is just my opinion, that way too much is made about his D. I have problems with the .760 OPS currently ranked 7th out of 11 NL SS with over 350 at bats. If you are going to have less than stellar (Vizquel-type) D, then hopefully the player makes up for it on offense. This is my personal preference. I’d take some questionable D for an offensive force like Hanley Ramirez, for example.
Theriot is a league-average player and moving him to 2B still makes him a league-average player. Nothing wrong with that either. Cost-effective and not killing your team.
A few things
1) No one makes “all the plays.” Theriot’s UZR is just a touch above average; so he’s about average at making plays. That’s confirmed by The Fielding Bible which gave Theriot 5 pts in their voting, tied with Johnny Peralta for 15th. Theriot’s defense has looked worse to me, but I’ve always doubted the “looks-to-me” test and I think now Cub fans are probably just viewing Riot’s defense too much in contrast to Cesar Izturis’.
2) UZR gives Theriot a significantly better rating at 2B. So, moving him to 2B could make him more valuable, but that would all depend on the comparative options available at 2B/SS. What I mean is that if there’s a 3-win 2B available, but only 1-win SS, you might as well leave Riot at SS another season.
3) The big problem with Theriot is that his reputation far exceeds his value. He could easily become an overpaid problem as we move towards arb-years.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
re:
1) when I said all the plays, I was speaking about the routine plays. Sorry for not being more clear. And agree.
2) not sure how UZR would “give” Riot a stronger rating since he has not played there as a regular. Seems iffy to me. But I’ll take your word for it. Agree on the value and availability of players.
3) down the road, completely agree
What does it matter what it cost the team?
If it is below average, it would improve the team to get a better arm over there. Im not saying to bench the guy, just move him over to 2B. Whats the big deal with that? Are you putting down second basemen? Is it some insult to have to play there? (Watch it, I play there on my softball team :P)
As for his arm, he has been called noodle arm plenty of times. He is also a habitual double clutcher, which would be ok if he could make up for it with his arm, but he cant.
Why would range be a problem? I mean he is fast.
Ball 4!
by californiachicagoan on Aug 7, 2009 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions
I should have known I was talking to a 2B
how does his arm affect his ability to play the position? Where has it cost the Cubs? I don’t recall any instance reflecting afterwards saying that “if Theriot had an arm like Dunston……..” He has played a pretty decent SS. That was my point and my premise.
When I spoke of range, I was talking to his supposed lack of range as a SS which is not true by UZR methods. Being fast does not equal having range. I am sure he would be adequate for range as a 2B and it was offered he could potentially be very good.
Noodle arm and double-clutcher do not equal loses for the Cubs. Every player cannot play like A-Rod or Griffey in their primes. As I stated, he is a league average player and there is no shame in that when the club controls his cost.
well put
I can’t speak for Worf, but Theriot is not a natural big league SS, but could be a good 2b.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 7, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Move Soriano to shortstop
Then put Fox in left!!! BINGO!!!
"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver
by wrigleyrocker12 on Aug 7, 2009 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions
JAKE FOX
If you have the footwork to be a back-up catcher and can play all four corner positions you are a high caliber athlete capable of making one more (permanent) position switch.
He would not have the greatest range, but I’d put money on his ability to make a pretty good looking double play turn and he would make all the routine plays.
uh....
My show opens this Friday 8/7. Come out and support a fellow Cubs fan?: Hot Beans Delivers
by digitalbenjamin on Aug 7, 2009 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions
HUH?????
Fox plays multiple spots in the field not because he is “a high caliber athlete” but because he is a low caliber defensive player. Yes, he can catch (badly by the way), play LF (the easiest OF spot), 1b and 3b (at best adequately), but that does not mean he can play 2b. Very different skill set required, a skill set he has yet to demonstrate.
Hmmm, how high would they have to leave the infield grass with Theriot and Fox playing the middle infield spots?
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 7, 2009 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions
To me
We need to go all-in with a position for Fox.
He’s proven not to be horrible at every spot he’s been at. If you give him one spot, he might improve to consistently mediocre or even solidly average.
My preference is RF and let Bradley go fornicate himself.
Or, we try to shift him around until time and/or injuries open up 1B.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Finding a position for Fox is fine
I want to see his bat in the lineup just about everyday, too, but 2b is a real reach.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 7, 2009 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions
I think so too
But if we try it, we should stick with it, barring a total meltdown out there.
Send him to all the Winter Ball games he needs to go to. Bring in Sandberg to work with him. Do whatever needs to be done.
But lock him in there and stop with the shifting.
At least until Lee leaves.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I'm an avowed Fox fan
but 2B might be a bit of stretch for Jake. That said, send him to the Winter Leagues and let him play there and see what he can do.
If he became competent there (along with 4-5 other positions), it only increases his versatility and helps the team.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
If Casey McGehee can play a competent 2B...
… then so can Jake Fox. They are very similar players.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
So...
The Cubs are going to cut him after the season?
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
McGehee's playing a competent 2B?
Wow, I missed that. Yeah, if he can do it, then I’d say Fox probably could if he worked on it in Arizona and in a Winter League.
With the amount of footwork drills catchers do, it’s not out of the realm of possibility that Fox could learn the tango of the middle infield. I think the greater issue would come in his range and footspeed in getting to balls in the whole or up the middle.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
McGehee...
… has started 20 games at 2B for the Brewers (and played 29 there) with a league-average range factor.
This is after playing a grand total of seven minor league games at 2B (out of almost 700 minor league games).
It’s worth a shot in winter ball for Fox.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I had not been paying that much attention to McGehee
I’d definitely take a shot on it in winter ball, especially if the Cubs decide that Fontenot is not the future (and how could they decide that after this season).
I think if the Cubs told Fox to focus on 1 position – whatever it was – they’d be pleasantly surprised with the results.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
you know
before this year, I didn’t care much about winter ball. Now I want to be able to WATCH it…
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 7, 2009 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Way too much fantasy baseball thinking here
First, McGehee plays there as an emergency. Weeks and Counsell are ahead of him. Weeks went down with an injury so McGehee plays occasionally. I don’t expect the Brewers to slot him there permanently.
Second, McGehee is both younger and not as bulky as Fox. Look at Fox, do you really see this guy turning a double play?
Finally, players as they age move down the defensive spectrum not up.
I know everyone looks at the Cardinals and Schumaker but that is an unusual case and even then Schumaker is listed at 5’10", 175. Biggio, 5’11’ 185. How can anyone look at Fox and think 2nd base? Besides, Theriot and Fox as the DP combo? The Brewers have shown that you can’t win with bad defense.
We talked about Fox at 2B the other day,
Fox 6’0’ 210lbs, DeRosa 6’1" 205lbs, and look at McGehee 6’1" 195lbs. Like posed above, with practice, he could probably play a halfway decent 2B and would be a great offensive addition to the everyday lineup.
You can't win in the postseason unless you can manufacture runs. - Hall of Fame 2B Joe Morgan
It's not fantasy baseball.
First off, McGehee is 3 months younger than Fox. As stated above, they have a similar build (unless you think McGehee is really 6’1"/195 as listed).
I don’t think anyone is expecting Fox to set the world on fire at 2B. However, the footwork drills he has done as a catcher would have trained the muscle groups needed to turn a double play around the bag.
Would Fox have a great range factor? No. Could he do a serviceable job? Probably.
Is it worth it to teach him to play 2B, giving him the ability to play LF, RF, 1B, 3B, 2B and C? I don’t see where it hurts, especially if he continues to hit.
Because if he continues to hit (and he hasn’t hit as well this last week, admittedly), then keeping him on the bench for the Aaron Miles of the world makes little to no sense moving forward.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Fox would be much more valuable if he could play more positions.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
If he learned how to play 2B
that would make 6 he could conceivably fill in at.
I don’t think he’s ever going to be Mark DeRosa defensively, but his offense would offset some of the defensive liability.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Adding 2B as a fill-in/utility position is one thing
Some people are proposing he try for the starting position. That is what I don’t think will work.
the same thing was said
about Jeff Kent who was serviceable at 2B and came through the minors as a 3B.
The question remains, does Jake’s bat produce more runs than his defensive shortfalls (I’m acknowledging he’s no Alomar). And he can always come out in the 8th or 9th innings. The double-play is not that hard. Sandberg or Trammell can get his footwork right in about 2 days. It would be about positioning, footwork, and anlges on all the routine plays at 2B that takes time.
I think Jake is a much better athlete than he is given credit for because of his build.
by socalbob on Aug 7, 2009 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Finally, players as they age move down the defensive spectrum not up.
imagine how good DLEE was at 1b when he was 24
He can throw a fastball at 87MPH and make you look like a fool. He can spray lines drives to right field. He can put up with crappy offense and take the loss. He is Randy Wells. He is the most interesting pitcher in the world. Stay healthy, my friends.
by jesus christos on Aug 7, 2009 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions
You don't know what the defensive spectrum is
Playing the same position is not moving on the defensive spectrum.
Cubs are talking
About teaching Fox second base in winter league and also Alan Trammell said he would give him private lessons
maybe it would be better for Trammel's old buddy 2b Lou Whitaker to give him lessons
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 9, 2009 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Good lord, second base?
Just so long as they don’t use the normal formula for talent evaluation. Sign two upside young guys cheap and one older, declining guy for more money than he’s worth in a multi year deal.
Discover they are all similar and cut the upside guys because they are cheap and ride the fast, expensive decline of the veteran.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
I read that this morning
and thought the same thing…he’d be perfect for us. God only knows who’ll own the Cubs next year, and what the budget will be, but I like his game and his clubhouse presence.
I have nothing funny or creative to write.
by Canadian Cubs Fan on Aug 7, 2009 9:51 AM CDT reply actions
BRIAN ROBERTS!
G ETIT DO NEJIM!
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
How many seasons will BR be a wanted player before he becomes the expensive, declining shell
of the player he was? See File, subtabs: Alou, Blouser, Morandini, H. Rodriguez, Kendall, Aguilara, Garciapara, Remlinger, Santiago, McGriff, etc.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
meant to reply to N Oakley
The Cubs are consistently good at bringing in players who are past their prime.
"Stay thirsty my friends."
Gary Gaietti would like a word with you
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
before we write off 2010 as a failed year because we didnt get Hudson
can we finish 2009?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Aug 7, 2009 12:47 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Fox at 2B.... oy.
I love Jake, but, stick him in a corner spot somewhere. Although, at 2B, he might be the equivalent of Dan Uggla (which would be tolerable, given he’ll probably hit 40 points higher than Uggla.)
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
+1 (including the sarcasm)
He’d couldn’t be any worse than Miles – seriously.
by Jody Jody Davis on Aug 7, 2009 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Essentially...
We could put a sheep at second base and receive similar production to Miles. And at a lower cost!!
But seriously, considering that we have a bunch of talented, young, cheap, middle infielders coming up through the system, I don’t think we should do too much. If the Theriot to 2B option is explored, I think Blanco would be an adequate replacement at SS as a stop gap. Best defensive middle infielder we have, and a better hitter than Miles, for sure.
by Mulhollandmania on Aug 7, 2009 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions
that was baaaaaaaaaaaad Al
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
how's the sheeps arm?
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 9, 2009 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions
AND HAVE JOHN SMOLTZ REPLACE KEVIN GREGG AS CLOSER
He can throw a fastball at 87MPH and make you look like a fool. He can spray lines drives to right field. He can put up with crappy offense and take the loss. He is Randy Wells. He is the most interesting pitcher in the world. Stay healthy, my friends.
by jesus christos on Aug 8, 2009 1:17 AM CDT up reply actions
Well hey O-Dog's total contract is less than Aaron Miles' right now!
Good job Jim!
Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.
In a perfect [Cubs] world....
Theriot is at 2B and Andres Blanco [with his head on straght in the batter’s box] is at SS.
Stop swinging for the fences, Andres!
"It's hard to win 97 games, it's hard to win the division. Our attitude is if you get in every year, you get in most of the time, sooner or later you are going to knock that door down." -- Jim Hendry
in a perfect world
the Cubs recognize that Blanco is never going to hit much at the big league level and that he is at best a good field no hit utility player.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 9, 2009 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Cubs will be budget buying at 2nd base
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
I don't like the idea of Fox at second
He doesn’t field the ball cleanly enough to be a good 2B. I don’t really see him being able to turn a lot of double plays.
fox
fox trying to turn a dp. arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. how about fonzie at 3rd too?
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