Cubs Believe Zambrano's Injury the Result of BP
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/1707635,CST-SPT-csep09.article
In the big thread yesterday, there was some doubt among posters whether this was the case, and some of the usual, "SPECULATION -- BAD!" routine.
But the Cubs believe it to be true, so that's really all that matters. They will ask Zambrano to curtail his exuberance at BP.
Basically, Zambrano is Brett Favre without the durability and without the wins. Every time Favre did something stupid, especially later in his career, you could always count on John Madden or Peter King to say, "Well, he's a gunslinger!" or "Gosh, he loves the game!"
At least Favre stayed out on the field.
I really wish this guy was out of my life.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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385 comments
Comments
I realize how strange this sounds as I type it, but...
…thank goodness we have Tom Gorzelanny.
All those who said we had enough pitching forgot to factor in the “exuberance” of Carlos.
"I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said." ~William F. Buckley, Jr.
by Goodie1969 on Aug 9, 2009 9:03 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Not. Strange. At. All.
I say the same thing. I love Z. But his time is up with the Cubs. Trade him not while he’s at the top of his value. This is as good as you are ever going to get from him. He’s NOT an “ace.” Not even close…
Quia tuum es fatum titulis discidiis, vexillinis limbis nationalis,
gloriam seriis mundialisque, nunc et in saecula saeculorum...
Amen.
by Zeke on Aug 9, 2009 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
him "not" while = him NOW, while
Trade him NOW…
Quia tuum es fatum titulis discidiis, vexillinis limbis nationalis,
gloriam seriis mundialisque, nunc et in saecula saeculorum...
Amen.
by Zeke on Aug 9, 2009 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the problem is he's not at the top of his value
and the market isn’t very good.
"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie
by buckmulligan on Aug 9, 2009 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zambrano
is a child. I’d say he needs to grow up, but I know it’s not going to happen.
He’s absolutely maddening. When he’s healthy, and not melting down emotionally, he’s a really solid SP…unfortunately, this scenario isn’t commonplace enough.
I have nothing funny or creative to write.
by Canadian Cubs Fan on Aug 9, 2009 9:12 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
A lot of people keeps saying this
But as you say, It’s not going to happen. If it hasn’t happened by now, it won’t. We need to accept the fact that we have a guy who is going to get emotional when things don’t go his way, as well as push himself too hard hitting and running. He’s going to injure himself. He’s going to throw John McEnroe like tantrums at refs and his teammates. And sometimes, he’s going to channel this emotion and pitch amazingly.
But he’s not going to change.
It never gets to be easy
by chitownhawkeye on Aug 9, 2009 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He takes his batting seriously, so therefore he's a headcase?
You people.
by Wreckard on Aug 9, 2009 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You sillies!
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously, where did CCF say that?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He replied to an article about how he may have hurt his back taking BP
…by calling Z a “child”.
Maybe it was just a non-sequitur?
by Wreckard on Aug 9, 2009 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I guess you didn't make a HUGE leap
But you did make a little bit of one.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whoops. Posted too soon
For example, I think Zambrano is immature. But I love the fact that he wants to hit well, and I loved the bunt play.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't believe he takes his batting seriously, actually
I think he has one swing and sometimes it connects. I think he has that same hitting approach, regardless of the men on base, the number of outs, the opposing pitcher or whether the Cubs are leading or behind.
And the fact that he has, through his career, had to be told to drink water, not show up his teammates and now to not hurt himself in BP is not a good thing.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man you're ridiculous.
Z is one of the best hitting pitchers in baseball. Of course he’s not as good of a hitter as a position player – that’s not the point. He obviously works hard at it, and in this case he may have hurt himself during that hard work.
People get hit doing baseball activities all the time. It’s patently ridiculous to get upset one someone gets hurt practicing something they’re expected to do as a major league hitter.
by Wreckard on Aug 9, 2009 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are 16 teams in the NL
Each with five starters. Throw in spot starts and relievers who, from time to time, get at-bats, and you have 100 or so guys who regularly have to hit.
And I’m assuming AL pitchers, before an interleague series, will take batting practice, which adds a few dozens more guys.
How many of them hurt themselves in BP??? How many of them have to be TOLD not to swing as hard as they do?
Zambrano may be unique. That doesn’t make him special.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who is telling him not to swing as hard as he does?
Now you’re just making things up.
Zambrano is special. That Cubs fans don’t see this is tragicomic.
by Wreckard on Aug 9, 2009 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you READ the story?
Pinella is going to “curtail” the amount of BP he takes.
And you didn’t answer the question. How many other pitchers find themselves in these situations?
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're seeing what you want to.
Here’s the quote from the article that you’re referring to. I’ve bolded the parts you apparently skipped.
They also believe his exuberant approach to BP before his starts might have contributed to the back acting up and forcing him to leave his Aug. 1 start after three innings and then causing him to cut short his pregame warmups Friday.
If that’s the case, ‘’we can curtail that,’’ manager Lou Piniella said of how much BP Zambrano is allowed to take before starts.
And you didn’t answer the question. How many other pitchers find themselves in these situations?
I’m sure pitchers get hurt practicing all the time, be it practicing hitting, fielding, running, or all of those other things that they’re required to do for their job. It’s only a story when Z does it because for some reason Cubs fans love to get their panties in a bunch with him.
You’re acting as though Z gets hurt taking batting practice all the time. To the best of my knowledge, this is the first time in his long career that this has happened.
by Wreckard on Aug 9, 2009 7:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, it's ONLY a story when Z does it
The evil media is covering up the hordes and hordes of other BP injuries to pitchers. Maybe the Goat is in on it somehow.
You’re right. First time he’s gotten hurt taking BP.
Of course, earlier this year, it was the first time he’s gotten hurt trying to beat out a bunt. And a couple of years ago, it was the first (of several) times he had to leave a game because of dehydration-related cramping. And earlier in his career, he had to be told not to break bats over his knee.
I’m sure next year, someone will have to tell him not to juggle chainsaws on his off-days.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 7:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't worry about that.
He’ll probably pull a muscle trying to start the chainsaws anyway.
"I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said." ~William F. Buckley, Jr.
by Goodie1969 on Aug 9, 2009 7:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say they were covering it up
It’s because no one would care.
The hilarious overreactions of readers like yourself are what make this newsworthy.
by Wreckard on Aug 9, 2009 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course, earlier this year, it was the first time he’s gotten hurt trying to beat out a bunt
so did wandy rodriguez.. what jerks
He can throw a fastball at 87MPH and make you look like a fool. He can spray lines drives to right field. He can put up with crappy offense and take the loss. He is Randy Wells. He is the most interesting pitcher in the world. Stay healthy, my friends.
by jesus christos on Aug 10, 2009 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and if it makes you feel better z beating out the bunt lead to a grand slam by dlee
and the cubs wouldnt have called randy wells to replace z and wed probably still have marshall in the rotation
He can throw a fastball at 87MPH and make you look like a fool. He can spray lines drives to right field. He can put up with crappy offense and take the loss. He is Randy Wells. He is the most interesting pitcher in the world. Stay healthy, my friends.
by jesus christos on Aug 10, 2009 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That does seem to be the implication of some here
Amazing, really.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 10, 2009 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some of this is on the Cubs
For not curtailing it a lot sooner and for using him as a pinch-hitter in low leverage situations.
I don’t have a problem with them using him to pinch hit on occassion, but it shouldn’t be as often as they do it – especially if they think he has a back issue.\\
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 9:14 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
this.
I said this in the other thread, the coaches knew he had a back problem, and didn’t curtail his practice sessions until AFTER he hurt himself again?
This team just seems to be a mess from the top down right now. The fact that they’re still in the thick of the pennant race is either a testament to the raw talent this team has, or how bad the rest of the NL is. I can’t decide
by Illicat on Aug 9, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope it's the former, but I think it's the latter . . .
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Samardzija is starting against the phillies?
This should be fun…
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Aug 9, 2009 9:34 AM CDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
TWTPS
(that’s what the phillies said)
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Aug 9, 2009 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i want to see spellcheck as a starter
hopefully after his innings the other day he was able to throw a few more to stretch his arm out a bit more for wednesday.
It's not about money. It's about winning and getting over the hump. We've had the appetizer now, but we left the main course on the table.
-rod beck
by laidbackliam on Aug 9, 2009 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd love to see him as a starter too.
If he had another pitch (lord knows we’re paying him like a starter). But I don’t think that’s the case. I hope I’m wrong though.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Aug 9, 2009 11:53 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure this is as… conclusive as you say it is.
If that’s the case, ‘’we can curtail that,’’ manager Lou Piniella said of how much BP Zambrano is allowed to take before starts.
‘He wasn’t going to pitch for a while regardless,‘’ Piniella said of the decision to put Zambrano on the DL before getting the MRI results. ’’Hopefully, what he has is not serious and he’ll be all right in a couple of weeks.’’
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 9, 2009 9:45 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I can't believe you just compared Z to Favre
That’s almost insulting. Especially considering Z is probably going to do the “I’m retiring, I’m not retiring” dance for many years to come, just like a whiny little QB from up north who couldn’t cut it in the cold.
by lswaidz on Aug 9, 2009 10:03 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It's a total insult
To Favre, who did win a title.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He used to be pretty damn good in the cold.
Don’t get me wrong, he’s a prima donna – always has been. But he was a pretty good QB, too.
I just wish he’d play for the Vikes and get picked 5X/game.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he played for Minnesota,
I’d hope they rack up, say, two wins this year.
That would be more than enough, seeing as both would come against Detroit.
I have been to five Cubs games in my lifetime.
The Cubs' record in those games: 5 wins, 0 losses.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Aug 9, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the Packers
would put Favre on a stretcher this year if he went to the Vikes.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if they didn't,
The Bears probably would.
I have been to five Cubs games in my lifetime.
The Cubs' record in those games: 5 wins, 0 losses.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Aug 9, 2009 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if the Blue Jays
will take Zambrano as part of a centerpiece for Halladay.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 10:30 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Sure. He can rehab in Lansing...
Quia tuum es fatum titulis discidiis, vexillinis limbis nationalis,
gloriam seriis mundialisque, nunc et in saecula saeculorum...
Amen.
by Zeke on Aug 9, 2009 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He takes hitting too seriously
Have I been the only one that realizes every time he has a bad at bat he always comes back out and gives up a run? He shouldn’t even be taking batting practice in the first place. You’re on this team to pitch, the hitting is just an extra.
"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver
by wrigleyrocker12 on Aug 9, 2009 11:17 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
All pitchers take batting practice together. That's the way it's been done in baseball
since they started using horsehide for the ball. Should the normal rules of baseball cease because it’s Big Z? Give the man a break. Chris Carpenter pulled an oblique earlier this year swinging the bat. It happens. This is the National League. Pitchers swing the bat here. Occasionaly they get hurt. Let’s not change the rules because of a single incident.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Aug 9, 2009 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zambrano
couldn’t carry Carpenter’s jock if you gave him a forklift.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What the hell does that have to do with anything? Why don't you try to
make a serious case for your argument instead of resorting to hyperbole? You are the one that is complaining about Zambrano’s behavior and making it seem like he is the only player ever to injure himself swinging the bat. The fact remains that Carpenter hurt himself swinging the bat. Whether Zambrano can measure up to Carpenter has nothing to do with this. No one was comparing the two. Why don’t you answer the question instead of making idiotic statements.
Obviously you have no use for Zambrano.our posts clearly indicate that you do not like him as a person or an individual. Fine, but don’t make dumbass statments following my posts. either make your point or shut the hell up.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Aug 9, 2009 11:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm, are Worf and Zambrano related?
Each seems to be victims of their own inability to control their emotions.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 10, 2009 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gimme a freakin' break.
Yes, when healthy, Carpenter has been better (except for ‘04) – but they’re not THAT far apart. In fact, one could argue that Zambrano has brought much, much more value to his team because, y’know, he’s actually played.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Aug 10, 2009 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does Chris know the towel drill?
Because that’s valuable, too . . .
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 10, 2009 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This comment
is the one comment I can’t swallow.
Z may be all of the negative things you think he is, that’s your opinion. However, saying Z can’t carry Carpenter’s jock is ridiculous.
In the argument of how much water stats hold, I’m going to go ahead and attempt to address both.
First, all my stats are from Baseball Reference
Carpenter has been pitching since 1997 and has accumulated 111 wins. Z has been pitching since 2001 and has won 104 games. In this span, Carpenter has started 30+ games ONLY 3 times (01’, 05’, and 06’), whereas Zambrano has started at least 30 games 6 out of the 9 years he has been pitching. In terms of IP, Z has pitched only 160 innings fewer than Carpenter in 4 years difference.
Now this thread is about his injury being a detriment to the team. Well, Carpenter has been far less durable than Z which means he must be an even greater detriment to his team. I’m sure the argument is that Carp didn’t injure himself in BP as Z supposedly did, but I also don’t think Carp ever won a game with his bat, as Z did this year.
by CubsFan87 on Aug 10, 2009 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Note how you got no reply
Coincidence? I say not.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Aug 10, 2009 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They really do take bp?
Wow, I never knew that. That changes things, but he still takes it to seriously.
"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver
by wrigleyrocker12 on Aug 9, 2009 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As Al said in the pregame thread
He takes it so “exuberantly,” too.
"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver
by wrigleyrocker12 on Aug 9, 2009 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're joking right?
Maybe they shouldn’t practice bunting or fielding because they might get hurt, too? Z takes a lot of pride in his hitting and he helps himself and the team with his hitting. Too bad more pitchers don’t do the same.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 9, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, he takes a LOT of pride
He swings at anything he can reach no matter the situation.
A position player with his approach to hitting doesn’t get past A ball.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stinkin thinkin, Worf
Zambrano is not a position player, and for a pitcher, his hitting stats are outstanding. If you cannot make an intelligent argument, the intelligent thing to do is say nothing.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 10, 2009 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They're not signed to hit
They’re signed to pitch. I don’t have a problem with the way he does it, but sometimes it affects his pitching.
"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver
by wrigleyrocker12 on Aug 9, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
Which is why the NL should have a DH ;)
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 9, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They shouldn't have a DH
I like that the pitchers hit, but people like Carlos take it TOO seriously.
"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver
by wrigleyrocker12 on Aug 9, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That doesn't really make sense though
To say that it’s not a pitcher’s job to hit, but liking watching them wave at pitches? I see the argument that there’s more strategy in the NL, but I think it’s far outweighed by how pointless it is to watch a pitcher hit 95% of the time
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 9, 2009 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said, I like that he takes pride in it
But it seems to me as if he always gives up a run after he has a bad at bat or something.
"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver
by wrigleyrocker12 on Aug 9, 2009 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like watching Carlos hit too
But not many other pitchers, is my point
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 9, 2009 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They are signed to be baseball players
Yes, his priority is pitching, but in the NL where they still play real baseball, pitchers have to bat, so it would behoove pitchers to be able to help themselves with the bat. Zambrano understands that concept, he works to be as good a hitter as he can be because he knows it can help the team. It is no different than a pitcher working on his fielding, once he releases the ball, he becomes an infielder, so he had better practice that, too.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 10, 2009 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do not agree
I think Zambrano is pathetic at moving the runner over. I think he has no concept of situational hitting. I think most pitchers can make him look stupid. I think he comes up wanting to hit an 800-foot home run each AB.
That’s wonderful when he connects, and he connects more often than most pitchers.
But there are a LOT of pitchers who have better bat control, understand the game situation and can do the little things a lot better than he can.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 10, 2009 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zambrano happens to be a pretty good bunter
when he wants to be. He’s also able to bunt for a base hit better than half the regular players.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Aug 10, 2009 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zambrano is a pretty good athlete period
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 10, 2009 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's a great bunter..........
…….with ZERO sacrifice bunts this season.
I guess they all went for hits, except for that one where he was thrown out and landed on the DL for foolishly trying to execute a play that only the best bunters are able to perform.
Next.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
by tville on Aug 10, 2009 10:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um he was SAFE on the bunt that landed him on the DL
And it lead to the winning run on. It WAS a hit and it worked. You can argue if he over does it in batting practice
swinging for the fences but there is nothing wrong with his bunting for hit.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Aug 11, 2009 5:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My mistake. He was safe.
But to call Zambrano a pretty good bunter is an even bigger mistake.
And to have a pitcher trying to bunt for a hit is also a mistake, but that ground was covered months ago.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
by tville on Aug 11, 2009 6:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was and many of us disagree
Hitting IS part of the game for NL pitchers. What they should lay down a bunt and just stand in the box ?
Z’s injury on that play could have happened to any player running to first. I think Z does over do it in BP
and there are times he should bunt rather than swing for the fences but he is a good hitting pitcher and that is an asset . If he got injured while throwing do we tell him not to throw past 90 MPH ? I assure that every time Greg Maddux bunted ( and he did it a lot) he was trying to get on base and advance the runner. Heck his favorite play was to square around and then pull the bat pack and poke a ball over the drawn in infield.
Pitchers need to know how to bat and the better they are at it , the better for the team.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Aug 11, 2009 7:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No. Z shouldn't be bunting.........
……….for a hit in the first place.
There’s a reason that injury doesn’t happen to Juan Pierre, Willy Tavares and other great bunt-for-hit players, primarily because that’s what these guys do for a living.
I’m all for pitchers hitting and doing their part, legging doubles into triples or dropping down bunts for hits is outside their scope. Ruthian swings for the fences probably isn’t intelligent either……
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
by tville on Aug 11, 2009 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The two most prolific bunting pitchers
of the last decade are Maddux & Glavine and both bunted for hits many times. Both went nearly their entire careers without injury. Bunting for a HIT should be a problem for a pitcher. They should not be jogging to first. Bunting for hits is actually a skill that pitchers should have the easiest and safest time developing.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Aug 11, 2009 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh actually that should have been most prolific of the last TWO decades.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Aug 11, 2009 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you have any statistical details?
Both were very good sacrifice bunters, but I truly don’t recall them regularly dragging or pushing balls for hits.
Not trying to be a jerk, just don’t believe they did it all that often.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
by tville on Aug 11, 2009 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bunt singles is not a stat that anyone seems to keep
but trust me 20 years of watching Maddux will tell he was such a good bunter and had more speed than he is given credit for that MANY of his sacrifice bunt attempts actually became singles and more than he few times he would get a bunt single with no one on. Glavine had over 200 sacrifice bunts and Maddux 180 which are among the highest of any player in the last two decaded ( only one who had more that I can recall is Vizquel). Just common sense tells you that both of them got on base a lot when they were bunting. I would guess that a majority of Maddux’s singles came from bunts and nearly 200 of 232 hits were singles. Maddux practiced bunting obsessively and his goal WAS TO GET ON BASE. I mean he wanted to advance runners but Maddux said on more than one occasion that he loved batting more than pitching. He and Glavine were in the batters box to get on base but both understood that bunting was their best chance of doing that.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Aug 11, 2009 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good grief, you act as if pitchers are made of glass
they are baseball players and as long as they are on the field they should play like ballplayers. If attempting to bunt for a hit is too risky for a pitcher to even try, then a pitcher should not try to make plays on bunt attempts either. Afterall he might hurt something going for the ball or hurt his arm making the throw using your “logic”.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 11, 2009 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And they shouldn't field pop-ups, either!
Wait, what?
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 11, 2009 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And they shouldn't field balls hit back at the mound either ?
Wait , what.
Pitchers need to field , bat and run just like the other player.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Aug 11, 2009 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then exactly why aren't they allowed to catch pop-ups again?
And why do they run with jackets on?
The point is, there ARE things a pitcher is discouraged from doing. There ARE safeguards in place.
So there is a line at which pitchers aren’t like other players.
We’re just debating the placement.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 11, 2009 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They don't run with their jackets on in 90 degree weather
and it is normal for a play to be made by someone most suited to do it. Pitchers are
athletes and need to do whatever they can to contribute. Should they leap in the stands for a ball , No, should they run as hard as they can on the bases , you bet. The few that have power like Z, Owings & Hampton should be able to use it without injuring themselves,
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Aug 11, 2009 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
some corrections
Pitchers wear jackets yes, but they still have to run the bases. And if you need to have someone explain why they wear jackets on the basepaths … wow!
Pitchers are allowed to catch popups, they just are not the first choice. Outfielders are supposed to call off infielders on balls between them. What that doesn’t mean is that infielders are not allowed to catch those balls, it just means that the outfielder has the easier play usually. 1b and 3b are supposed to call off catchers on popups, too. What that doesn’t mean is that catchers are not allowed to catch popups, it means that it is an easier play for the infielder.
Pitchers are ballplayers, too, they need pitch (their only unique responsibility) and they need to do all of the things that baseball players must do: hit, field and run the bases … in the NL at least, where they play real baseball still. Since pitchers must do all of these things, they should practice them so they can do them as well as possible to help the team.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 12, 2009 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
Pitchers can and do catch pop ups. I saw Tim Lincecum make a great sliding catch of a foul pop a few weeks ago. (Not in person, video clip.) I think pitchers deferring to infielders on pop ups has more to do with alleviating confusion than safeguarding the pitcher’s well-being.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Aug 12, 2009 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it has more to do with
they get so little practice catching them, let the guys who do it for a living so to speak handle it. Players are trained to go after anything you think you can get to, but teams do have a pecking order on balls in the air to try and alleviate the confusion. Pitchers, not surprisingly are always at the bottom.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 12, 2009 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pitchers practice...........
………..their fielding quite regularly. Covering the bag, bunts, etc. are frequently drilled because they are fundamental to the game.
Pitchers far less frequently practice hitting, and even less time is devoted to bunting as a means to reach base. In fact, I’m sure most NL pitchers practice drag/push bunting not at all. The risk/reward factor is simply too great.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
by tville on Aug 12, 2009 7:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Worf you win the top idiot of the day
prize.
Real quick name me the number of seasons Zambrano has failed to make 30 starts since becoming a full time starter?
It’s amazing but posts like this prove that even internet commentators can be just as big of hacks as Sullivan or Kaplan.
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 11:24 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Fail
Kaplan and Sullivan get paid to report. Worf is wasting his personal time to write here. Attack the logic. Do not attack the man.
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
by chilango2 on Aug 9, 2009 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
nope
I will attack the man as well. He has a right to his opinion but I am under no obligation to respect an opinion as stupid & based on no facts as his.
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um
Far be it from me to shield Worf, as he doesn’t seem like one who shies away from a confrontational statement.
But.
I don’t understand how he is an idiot for being frustrated with Zambrano. Carlos has had back issues recently, and this 2009 team has had a virtual cornucopia of injuries. With that in mind, why would he be swinging his heart (and subsequently back) out when the team is in a very tight race where every game counts, and they could really use their ‘ace’ healthy and productive down the stretch?
Was Zambrano trying to hurt his back? I think that’s obviously not the case. But he wasn’t conscious about the possibility of tweaking it, and he should have been. Although in all honesty, the coaching staff really should’ve been managing his BP swings better. But now he’s going to end up missing 2 or 3 starts, and it’s very conceivable that he might struggle in his first start back, so the team has yet another burden to bear.
The point is that staying healthy is the best thing that Zambrano can do for his team. Either he didn’t think that swinging too hard in BP could hurt his back, or he didn’t care if it might. Whichever of those to is true, it implies that his head isn’t in line with what would be best for the team.
I don’t really agree with those calling to get rid of him right now, but I understand their frustration. There’s a lot of money invested in this guy, who isn’t nearly as reliable or consistent as that money would dictate.
Oh, and he has a very good chance of missing the 30 start mark that you heralded as an accomplishment to be revered. The sentiment is that perhaps if he drank more water and nursed his back, he could have once again made 30 starts this year.
by WittyUserName on Aug 9, 2009 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
first off
lets remind ourselves that Worf is citing speculation from Gordon Wittenmeyer who is citing speculation from Lou. The MRI has proven NOTHING. We have no idea if BP really hurt his back. So for worf to use something not proven to try and roast Zambrano for the millionth time this season while par for the course, is sad and childish.
Zambrano has been the most durable pitcher in baseball since 2003. Thats a fact whether Worf or the rest of you like it or not. Trying to compare him to Brett Favre and then making a claim that Z isn’t durable like Favre is beyond a joke. I will not respect such garbage and I really don’t care if that offends somebody. People should be offended that some internet dork can go out and disparage one of our best and most durable Cubs pitchers OF ALL TIME using no evidence or fact.
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I actually am not offended by personal attacks themselves
I actually find them more pitiable. It saddens me when people have no other way to express themselves.
I will pray for you tonight.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so then
you sadden yourself when you make personal attacks at Zambrano?
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Personal attacks?
I find his act tireseome and detrimental to my favorite team. I think we have reached the point where his incidents will begin to outnumber his good starts.
I want to trade him while we can still get value.
Nothing personal. But thanks for trying. You really are coming on strong today. Maybe you should try decaf?
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so you
are self delusional as well as a prick. I am not going to waste the time to stroll through your trail of muck but it wouldn’t be hard to find you calling Zambrano ( a man you have never met and don’t know outside of the TV in your moms basement) a head case, a crazy person, a child ect ect.
Thats personal I think.
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seems to me you've got a bit more emotionally invested in this than maybe you should
Referring to the team in the first person plural (yes, I know others do that) and taking criticism of a ballplayer as a personal attack.
You’re not a Cub, you know. I suspect you’re not affliated with the organization any more than the rest of us.
Just my $0.02, but maybe you should take a deep breath before your next post . . . count to ten.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow...
Idiot. Prick. Childish.
You really have no imagination, do you?
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not compared
to a man who can imagine Carlos Zambrano to be bad at baseball.
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where have I said that?
I’ve said he is overrated. I’ve said he is a detriment to the team. I’ve said his act is tired and we should trade him while he’s got a high market.
Cue next insult. Maybe you’ll call me a “poopyhead” next.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, he didn't say that.
Even if he did, that doesn’t warrant the namecalling.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How long is that list?
one of our best and most durable Cubs pitchers OF ALL TIME
Talk about hyperbole.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
really
because I could prove it to you in about five seconds.
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Time's up
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
What was the line?
There are three types of lies. Lies. damned lies, and statistics.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 9, 2009 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really? You think that proves your point?
The first link is contemporary pitchers from around the league.
Both links are subjective – while they provide stats, they are someone else’s opinion.
It certainly doesn’t prove that Carlos Zambrano belongs on a list with Greg Maddux, Ferguson Jenkins, Charlie Root, Ken Holtzman, et al.
Maybe he does, but your emotional assertion was that he was one of the Cubs’ best and most durable pitchers ever. You have not proven that with your emotional link posting.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
link posting
is emotion neutral i think
and it doesnt suprise me that stats (which are a recording of how people pitch)
aren’t enough to get it through your head.
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Alright! Now you're attacking me, cool!
While I don’t feel the need to share my credentials, I can assure you that I understand math.
Clearly, I need to spell it out in more detail. They include SOME stats, and are not a comparison to Cubs of all time – which is what your claim was.
It doesn’t surprise me that logic and English skills aren’t geting through your head when I read some of your other posts in this thread. Seriously, settle down.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
HEY!
You can pick on me, but leave Badger alone! He’s still my Padawan apprentice.
Your fight is with the Jedi.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought I was the Cha'DIch
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's funny...
Worf is my favorite Star Trek character, but I tend to be more of a Star Wars fan.
I never even thought about Cha’Dich
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One point for the Badger!
One of my favorite lines from STNG was Piccard reassuring Worf: “Hey — I’m the Cha’DIch!”
I did have to Google the spelling, though.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the stats you put up didn't prove anything
it was a guessing game to match stats to the pitchers. I don’t think it porved anything at all
by oeosoto on Aug 9, 2009 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so you read this
and came away unimpressed?
Zambrano’s Career Adjusted ERA+ is 43rd best all time better than Shilling, Smoltz, Seaver, Gossage, Mussina, Marichal, Drysdale, Fingers, Sabathia, Eckersly, Palmer, Lemon, Pettitte, Carlton, Neikro, Bunning, Ruffin, Ryan, Sutton, Wynn and Jenkins.
Of all hall-eligible starting pitchers who pitched after World War 1 who are ahead of Zambrano on the career ERA+ list ONLY TWO are NOT in the hall of fame – Harry Brecheen and Spud Chandler
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
or this
Over the last seven seasons, there are nine pitchers who have won 90 or more games (wins being a statistic the angry hordes can understand and usually cling to): Johan Santana (107), Roy Halladay (104), Roy Oswalt (100), Carlos Zambrano (95), Andy Pettitte (94), CC Sabathia (94), Derek Lowe (92), Josh Beckett (90) and Mark Buehrle (90).
Of those, only Sabathia is younger than the just turned 28-year-old Zambrano – by 50 days.
Of those, only Lowe (218) and Buehrle (214) have started more games than Zambrano (206).
Of those, only Santana (2.88), Halladay (3.18) and Oswalt (3.26) have a lower ERA than Zambrano (3.41).
Of those, only Santana (1,462) and Sabathia (1,151) have more strikeouts than Zambrano (1,141).
Of those, only Santana (.217) has a lower batting average against than Zambrano (.228).
Of those, none have a lower slugging percentage against than Zambrano (.351).
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
or this
In the history of baseball, only 68 pitchers with at least 500 innings pitched have a higher ERA+ than Carlos Zambrano. That is it. But how far do we actually have to go to get Zambrano out of the top 100? He ranks 80th among all pitchers with at least 400 IP, 90th with at least 300 IP, and 114th among all pitchers with at least 200 IP. If you’re curious like I am, Zambrano remains in the top 100 in ERA+ once we set the minimum career innings pitched to 256. He ranks 99th and at 255 he ranks 100th.
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
What it proves to me is
Zambrano was very good we paid him a lot of money then he became not as good. He is not an ace and don’t think he has great stuff anymore. He used to throw in the mid to upper 90’s and now he only throws 91-93 every game. And when he is bad he is awful, I like Z a lot but I don’t consider him an ace and until he gets it all working for a consistent period of time I won’t consider him one.
by oeosoto on Aug 9, 2009 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what is says to me is
he has once a gain a ERA+ in the top tier of pitchers THIS SEASON
Zambrano may not fit YOUR personal definition of an ace but when you compare him to other pitchers he sure is.
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't care about ERA PLUS
its a stat for nerds. I watch zambrano pitch and he is not as good as he used to be if you say any different I and most of BCB will disagree with you so stop pushing your Buster Onley sexy stats down my throat because they mean nothing to me
by oeosoto on Aug 9, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh lala!
so stop pushing your Buster Onley sexy stats down my throat because they mean nothing to me
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
good comeback
Im serious these dumb statistics were created for people who don’t know how to evaluate talent with their eyes. And they make stats up so they can prove arguments about people even though they are wrong. With these new cool stats i have been told Big Z is a top tier pitcher this year, Theriot sucks and that andres blanco and koyie hill are the two most valuable cubs on the team. Thats what kind of arguments i get when people bring up stats that real baseball fans and analysts don’t use
by oeosoto on Aug 9, 2009 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
im not
sure what stats tell you Blanco and Koyeil Hll are the best cubs but anyway
this argument is old, if you think you know the game better than me fine. Its obvious you don’t understand what stats are. They are merely a record of what happens during a game. How you choose to interpret them is up to you.
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i never said i know the game better then you
I just don’t like all these stats they never used in baseball before money ball and buster onley.
by oeosoto on Aug 9, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
(dying laughing)
Buster ‘Onley’ is one of the least stat-oriented writers out there
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 9, 2009 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no shit
imagine his horror to discover tom tango or THT
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
The stats would tell you that Theriot has been the most valuable position player this year, though I think that Fukudome has probably passed him since I ran the numbers
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 9, 2009 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are exactly
What Bill James wrote of when he wrote of ‘anti-intellectual resentment’ in basball. ‘Real baseball fans’. Why does it matter that ‘real baseball fans’ don’t use stats. You’re creating the division in the language you use.
You’re otherwise too narrow-minded to recognize there are people that enjoy baseball different from you? You’re pathetic.
" I hate that lady , but would totally do her. So strange is this mind of mens." - Skisgaar Skwigelf
by Rage and Grace on Aug 9, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
your right sorry
not all real baseball fans need stats to see when someone is playing well. I also, enjoy stats however there are so many now a days that i feel you can use them to twist good players into bad players and vice versa
by oeosoto on Aug 9, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
a "real"
baseball fan uses fact to bolster his opinion
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really
Again, no one is forcing anyone to pay attention to one certain stat. If you want to question the wisdom of one stat all you have to do is ask someone in the know. Most statistically minded people (Colin Wyers especially) are more than happy to talk about their statistics and what they show. They’re not evil. They’re not ruining the game. They are what they are, a different way of looking at the game.
" I hate that lady , but would totally do her. So strange is this mind of mens." - Skisgaar Skwigelf
by Rage and Grace on Aug 9, 2009 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't apologize
I was too quick to judge myself. I’m glad you see where I’m coming from though. My apologies.
" I hate that lady , but would totally do her. So strange is this mind of mens." - Skisgaar Skwigelf
by Rage and Grace on Aug 9, 2009 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As am I
Didn’t mean so call pathetic. So far that. Sorry.
" I hate that lady , but would totally do her. So strange is this mind of mens." - Skisgaar Skwigelf
by Rage and Grace on Aug 9, 2009 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You realize you keep apologizing to the same post, right?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you
That’s very magnanimous of you to point out a mistake when I was trying ot be nice.
" I hate that lady , but would totally do her. So strange is this mind of mens." - Skisgaar Skwigelf
by Rage and Grace on Aug 9, 2009 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I think you were being nice
But I didn’t know if you realized that you’d replied to the same person.
Maybe you were doing it on purpose, but it didn’t seem like it.
Anyway, carry on.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 9, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh man.
I don’t care about ERA PLUS
its a stat for nerds.
This thread is pure gold.
by Wreckard on Aug 9, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gold, Jerry, Gold!

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 9, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 9, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Third time's the charm

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 9, 2009 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you are really saying Zambrano has ace numbers this year
really? you say he is a top tier pitcher this year? just wow
by oeosoto on Aug 9, 2009 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
since
you seem the guy who would want to use ERA to value a pitcher to look at Zambrano’s compared with the rest of the league. Tell me where he winds up.
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You need to bust out the ZORP 2.0, Cal
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Aug 9, 2009 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
After that you and Wallace Matthews
Can scream at those kids to get off your lawn, if oioioioi lets you.
" I hate that lady , but would totally do her. So strange is this mind of mens." - Skisgaar Skwigelf
by Rage and Grace on Aug 9, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's great.
I don’t know that I trust the source, and I wasn’t going to read those novels that you linked to in their entirety. What is the source that the author used?
I notice that Maddux is not on the list, but he’s also not referenced as not in the HoF because he’s not yet eligible. Certainly not a damning omission, but it makes me wonder again about the sources.
Is he ahead of the other Cub pitchers that I mentioned beyond Jenkins? The list doesn’t say.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
why
can’t you READ what I post before you say things like this. Maddux is most certainly mentioned in the 2nd link
Reading is the key.
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly? I'll tell you why.
Because the last few posts that you have in this section was the first sign of being rational from you in the entire thread.
You claimed in this very fanshot that it wasn’t reasonable for people to expect you to be civil/mature or whatever it was that you said when you found someone else to be irrational.
Yet, you think that after a dozen emtionally charged posts where you personally attack strangers because they disagree with you that they should take the time to read every single word that you link to in order to find supporting evidence for YOUR argument.
Sorry, that’s a bit too disingenuous for me. Try a little more civility next time; you’ll get farther.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have
no interest in being “civil” with dolts like Worf or quite frankly with people like you who in the face of evidence choose to either disregard the facts or attack the way in which they were presented.
I don’t care to be buddy buddy to Worf or follow some kind of made up eEtiquette. I find everything about the way Worf posts offensive and I won’t be nice in saying so.
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The new CalCalender
Who won’t be pushed around anymore!
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Knock yourself out, Chief. You asked the question, I answered.
I know that I won’t be losing any sleep over what you think of me. I’m guessing Worf won’t, either.
I’d also be willing to bet my blood pressure is a lot lower right now than yours is, too.
Don’t worry, though. Carlos appreciates your support and I’m sure he’ll say so the next time you are in the clubhouse with the team.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the argument comes
full circle
Step 1- Post an ill thought out fanpost
Step 2- People who actually take the time to think out their thoughts argue with actual facts
Step 3- Ignore the facts and post stupid pictures
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Think out their thoughts?
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ah
lets go after grammar errors now.
anything to get away from the original argument.
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What IS the argument, exactly?
Seriously, what do you think it is?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Step 4 - reply to the wrong person in an indignant rage
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Semantics.
" I hate that lady , but would totally do her. So strange is this mind of mens." - Skisgaar Skwigelf
by Rage and Grace on Aug 9, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
:)
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Favre had good stats too
And was horrid later in his career with the game on the line.
NO ONE has said Zambrano wasn’t good.
But with his insistence on swinging like an idiot, his increasing flakiness and the signs of injury — four times in his career, but TWICE this year — there is a time to sell high.
Of all those pitchers you named, I would hand the ball to ANY of them in Game 7 of the World Series.
I wouldn’t even want Zambrano in the stadium.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd let him bat.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
so i post a link showing Zambrano to be equally good or better as those pitchers and you don’t want him in the stadium
thats why you suck.
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow... you're slipping
“You suck”?
Maybe you can get some tips from your local middle school.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
why
try and get creative with you? It will just go over your head.
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Guess what?
I’ve done my own statistical analysis based upon the content of this thread. It measures things like maturity, subject matter, reasonableness, civility and eye color. One inescapable conclusion from the data is the overall age of posters here seems to skew towards late 20’s, early 30’s. It would be higher, but the data keeps insisting, based upon your posts, that your somewhere between 10 and 12. Stats don’t lie.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 9, 2009 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i take
it as a badge of honor to not stack up well in a metric you devised.
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Careful......
…that badge can prick you.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 9, 2009 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure I like the sound of that . . .
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That prick can badge you?
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 9, 2009 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Was kind of a play on my user name
I guess if you have to explain the joke, the joke isn’t that good . . . sorry.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
Right over my head.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 9, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was a stretch.
My fault, not yours!
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's what you don't seem to get
It’s possible for people to disagree with you, no matter what your precious stats say.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 9, 2009 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i understand that
very well.
People used to think the Earth was round and got into disagreements about that as well.
My problem is that the argument about Z being a great pitcher isn’t hard to make. He is. It’s proven using any measure of stat you want. If people choose to argue against that feel free but then you are arguing against facts and that kind of makes you an idiot. I shouldn’t have to be patient and hold grown up’s hands as we journey through the wonderful world of stats & fact vs. the kind of shit that Worf posts.
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
DAMN!!
should be used to think the Earth was flat
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The earth's not round?
And no, you don’t get it, not in the slightest, as long as you call people idiots who disagree that Zambrano is a “great” pitcher.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 9, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he is
if you can’t understand that too bad for you. its not a matter of opinion when you have 6 years of data to back up my side and nothing but personal opinion to back up yours
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's not the point.
The point is, the personal attacks don’t strengthen your argument.
They weaken your credibilty.
And when you get pissy at people for pointing that out to you, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 9, 2009 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am not pissy
for you not liking how i talk to you. I can understand that.
What gets me pissy is reading garbage like this fanpost.
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, you're right.
If someone says something you don’t like, by all means, call them names!
That will serve you well in school, business and personal relationships, too!
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
I’m married with a great job but thanks!
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's great - good for you. Seriously.
I doubt you talk to poeple in real life that you have in this thread.
If you got in people’s faces like that, you’d probably be bruised a lot.
The thing is, you’ve had some valid points. But for you not to see that the tone takes away from it and makes people not pay as much attention seems more than a bit obstinate.
There’s no reason for a lot of it, and I don’t know why you are surprised that you weren’t received well when you did it.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The point is, the personal attacks don’t strengthen your argument.
No, but they’re really entertaining and dead on.
Not only is he proving his point in spades, he’s showing how silly and indefensible some of the opinions held around here are.
by Wreckard on Aug 9, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Entertaining, maybe
Dead on, not so much.
There was no reason for him to attack me, for example.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
'Precious stats'
are a good portion of what ML orgs base a lot of decisions off of.
You can disagree with him all you want, but when it comes right down to it his objective analysis makes your subjective whinings look like a three year old without his toy.
" I hate that lady , but would totally do her. So strange is this mind of mens." - Skisgaar Skwigelf
by Rage and Grace on Aug 9, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But....
… I would suggest the analysis isn’t objective, No baseball analysis is. To solely rely on stats makes it subjective in and of itself.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 9, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In comparison
Z ISN’T AN ACE!!!!1111FIVEJLKFDLKJ;
vs.
Here are the stats why Z is a good pitcher
Is what I’m referencing. I didn’t mean you in particular, so for the toy comment I do apologize.
" I hate that lady , but would totally do her. So strange is this mind of mens." - Skisgaar Skwigelf
by Rage and Grace on Aug 9, 2009 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats why
we use more than one stat in making our argument.
You can use new age stuff like ERA + or you can use good ol home cooking stats like Wins, IP ect ect
All of they same Zambrano is great.
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, good for you
You have the courage of your convictions. So do people who think he’s merely good to very good.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 9, 2009 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
my convictions
are based on fact. yours are not, they are based on the thought that YOU know better than everybody else and Z is not an “ace” .
thats the difference here.
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So which is it, then?
10, 11 or 12?
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 9, 2009 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would be hilarious
If a 10 year old knew more about ERA+ and other advanced metrics than a bunch of people in their late 20s and 30s who consider themselves “real baseball fans.”
The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 9, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Forgive me
I’m 51 and have been a baseball fan all my life. While I respect stats, they’re not the be all end all, and I don’t worship at their altar.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 9, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
again
you seem to view “stats” as the other, something seperate from the game itself
They a record of what happened during the game. You can use them. It wont hurt or ruin the game for you, I promise.
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
So you belittle the wins statistic
and then cite a bunch of stats regarding the winningest pitchers of the last seven seasons.
Doesn’t this kind of defeat your argument?
"I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said." ~William F. Buckley, Jr.
by Goodie1969 on Aug 9, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so you over value the wins
statistic I show you Z gets alot of win in addition to being good in other stats and you disregard that…..
doesnt that kind of defeat trying to talk with you?
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It does. You're right
There is no point in talking to us.
Run along now.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When did I say I value the wins statistic?
But then again, if I did, I’d just be part of the angry hordes.

"I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said." ~William F. Buckley, Jr.
by Goodie1969 on Aug 9, 2009 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
B-R compares Z more to guys like Alex Fernandez and Ramon Martinez
Through age 27, Z has a lot of historical comps who were out of baseball at age 32-33. Some of the more modern comps have pitched a bit longer, guys like Hampton and Zito. But they were not #1 or #2 starters after about 300 starts.
See my earlier reply further down for more details.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Aug 9, 2009 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really wasn't
impressed by these stats an Ace is consistently good Zambrano is off and on and to be honest these stats didn’t prove anything about cubs pitchers of all time
by oeosoto on Aug 9, 2009 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Burden's on you, Skippy
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, at least that isn't condescending
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
by davidalanu on Aug 9, 2009 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody is arguing Zamrbano's durability
At least not the durability of his arm. It’s the fact that his head, and his mouth, have caused problems, including missing starts, that really bothers people.
When Carlos would K at the plate in a big spot, as fans we always have to worry about him breaking the bat over his knee, and we fear what that might mean for the team. We’ve seen him pulled from starts for cramps that were likely caused from dehydration, which shouldn’t really be an issue at this level of play more than once. He’s lost his cool over bloop singles and homers alike, and turns around and can’t find the plate and gets pulled early.
None of these things have an ounce to do with his physical durability, and everything to do with the mental part of his game. I fail to see why it is wrong to be frustrated with this guy, who has all the talent in the world, yet seems to only make things harder for himself and his team.
As far as this thread being based upon speculation of a reporter and Lou. Well what else does a sports fan have to go off of if not the words of the manager? Is Lou speculating? Sure. Is his opinion infinitely more informed than any of us as fans? You bet it is.
The point isn’t whether he actually hurt is back on a BP swing or not, it’s that both Zambrano and the coaching staff should have better monitored his activity to ensure that if Carlos did have more back issues, that they weren’t the result of an activity that wasn’t necessary to the team.
by WittyUserName on Aug 9, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you are going to upset with Zambrano,
be upset with his unwillingness to get treatment for his back after he was forced to come out of the game. If that prevented him from making his start vs the Rockies the other day, that is something legit to be upset about. Getting upset because you think he works too hard on his hitting is just silly.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 10, 2009 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trade him for who?
People want him out of town, thats fine, who are you going to get for him? Who would take on his contract? Any Ideas.
Z is Z, a big kid who may grow up one of these days, I am not counting the days, however he takes the ball, he does eat innings and until this year been real durable.
I just don’t see a favorable deal that the Cubs would get equal value back. He may not be an ace, however Z will get you 15-17 wins, except of course this year.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Aug 9, 2009 11:36 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
This post is why you should have a friend read your posts before posting
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 9, 2009 11:39 AM CDT reply actions 8 recs
friend may be stretching it
but you made a good point; rec #7
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Aug 9, 2009 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
By the way Worf, there's an easy way to get Big Z out of your life right now. Stop
following the Cubs and stop posting here. I’m sure the Cubs and this blog can manage to get along just fine without you.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Aug 9, 2009 11:44 AM CDT reply actions 7 recs
amen
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
by sue369 on Aug 9, 2009 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno, lately he's been much better on bcb.
Let’s just consider him the Josh Hamilton of bcb. He had a relaspe to what he use to be, but he’s come a long way.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Aug 9, 2009 11:50 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Worf has come a long way???
Good grief, what kind of goofiness was he posting before then?
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 9, 2009 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well..
…it was the same sort of thing. My point is the frequency of these crazy posts have been fewer and further in between.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Aug 9, 2009 11:59 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
yes, true
but have they been crazier?
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Aug 9, 2009 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking objectively
I’ve only brought the crazy out on special occasions. I can still go bonkers when someone spells the opposite of win as “loose”
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 7:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
meds have kicked in?
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 10, 2009 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha
Let’s just consider him the Josh Hamilton of bcb
That is an especially awesome comparison if you’ve ever seen him talk about Hamilton.
by Wreckard on Aug 9, 2009 7:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I
LOL’d.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 10, 2009 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, sugar britches
I’m not going anywhere. Learn to love it.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, isn't that
a crying shame.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 9, 2009 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Uh-oh.
Immovable object, meet irresistable force!
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
or ignore it
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 10, 2009 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
way to go willie!
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Aug 9, 2009 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
agree this poster is a punk rock brain
only lawyers should care for grammar are you one?
by angryandy on Aug 9, 2009 8:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That actually sounds like a compliment.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Aug 10, 2009 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wanna be sedated
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Aug 10, 2009 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually Z is closer to being Jim McMahon
He is a charismatic guy who plays 110% often without regard to physical injury and he will do anything to win. This often
results in overly emotional behavior that can detract from his playing but I don’t get most of the anger and sometimes hate directed at him. As the person who first posted that his injury might be the result of over doing it in BP ( um not wild speculation Drew etc) I was not attacking him , just pointing out that he needed to hold back a bit especially when he already had physical issues. I had NO problem at all with his bunt earlier in the season and I wish all the Cubs pitchers would learn how to bunt as that is likely the most valuable batting skill for a pitcher. Z can be exasperating to say the least but I will take his over the top commitment to winning over the lackadaisical attitude of some other Cub players any day of the year. We are all hoping Z can learn to be more measured on the field both physically and mentally and I really do think he has toned it down from past years.
"I daydream just like everybody else, I just do it with my body facing the field, so everybody thinks I'm paying attention."- Greg Maddux
by Doggie Stalker on Aug 9, 2009 11:57 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I thought the bunt was great, and I said so at the time
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good analogy ... good post
shows more analysis than the original
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 10, 2009 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All I Know Is....
… I used to feel like the team had a 95% chance of winning when Zambrano took the mound. I lost that feeling mid-2008 or so. I now feel much more confident when Randy Wells is slated to start.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 9, 2009 11:58 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That's because when Randy Wells gives up a couple of runs
you don’t get the sense that that his brain is about to stop working.
"I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said." ~William F. Buckley, Jr.
by Goodie1969 on Aug 9, 2009 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If anything, Wells seems to bear down and pitch better
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 9, 2009 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm also fairly confident
That Wells won’t:
- Forget to hydrate
- Glare at fielders for errors
- Attempt to hit a ball to Indiana
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gotta admit....
“Attempt to hit a ball to Indiana”made me laugh.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 9, 2009 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
lets throw out 6 years of great pitching in favor of a half season of Randy Wells.
You guys should be in a front office somewhere.
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ya know.....
… it’s fine if you vehemently disagree, but your weak attempts at rationalizing the personal insults bring nothing to the table here, much less continuing to personally insult. Please do better.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 9, 2009 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
when
people delve into the nonsensical you can’t expect one to take them time and try to rationally argue
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that's right! Sink to what you perceive their level to be - that'll solve all your troubles.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Besides...
six years of “great pitching”? Good pitching, sometimes very good pitching, including the no hitter, but six years of great pitching. No way.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 9, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
then
you don’t understand stats. Because they leave a record of “great” pitching for 6 years.
look em up sometime.
by CalCalender on Aug 9, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We'll disagree....
.. and leave it at that, because I don’t care to sling mud with you. I’m trying to cut back.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 9, 2009 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with Beercub here
I can’t say Zambrano has ever been great over a ong period of time hard to say he has even been very good over a long period of time because he is not truly an ace and he has proven that the last two years
by oeosoto on Aug 9, 2009 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great is....
Jenkins and Maddux. Zambrano is nowhere near them.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 9, 2009 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look, we're just fans.
We don’t hold any sway over the baseball decisions of the Cubs organization.
Clearly, some of us don’t feel like Z is a reliable player, and that’s our opinion. Yours appears to be the opposite. Is it so horrible that people disagree with you?
"I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said." ~William F. Buckley, Jr.
by Goodie1969 on Aug 9, 2009 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently, it is
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
RH, Carlos tries to hit it to Kenosha
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oooh, once again my evil nemesis geography wins!
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's ok! He's a switch-hitter!
Although, Indiana might be a foul ball . . . I suppose if it hooked . . . .
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 9, 2009 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
NOMINATED: Weirdest Thread Of The Day
I feel oddly stimulated by this. It’s kind of like watching Officer Foley arguing with Mary Hartman when I was a teenager.
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we will go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
by cubnational on Aug 9, 2009 1:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Feature request:
It’s too much work to rec all of CalCalendar’s posts. Can we just have an auto-rec feature?
by Wreckard on Aug 9, 2009 1:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Z's comparable pitchers - let's be realistic about what we have here
I think most of the critics in this thread are jealous of the money, and jealous that they can’t be quite as goofy as Z is at their jobs without somebody taking a broom to their head.
I looked up Z’s comps at B-R. His top 10 comps for similar through age 27, are very instructive:
1. Ramon Martinez (958)
2. Dan Petry (947)
3. Jim Maloney (945)
4. Sandy Koufax (944) *
5. Ray Culp (944)
6. Alex Fernandez (944)
7. Tom Glavine (940)
8. Mike Hampton (939)
9. Mark Gubicza (937)
10. Barry Zito (936)
One of the greatest pitchers in the history of the game, a likely HOFer (Glavine), and a LOT of guys with injury problems. The scary thing: none of the first six guys on that list had more than 320 starts (average 284) even though many of them pitched in the 4-man rotation days. As of today, Z has 230.
So it is fair to argue that Z probably only has another year or two as a #2 starter (what he really is right now), then a year or two as a #3, and a couple of years as a #4/5.
How well he takes care of himself, and how well the team controls him, will determine if Z turns out to be a Ray Culp or a Mike Hampton.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Aug 9, 2009 1:38 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Three cheers
I agree that most of this Z angst stems from jealousy.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 10, 2009 1:34 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
That makes literally no sense.
If jealousy causes the disdain for Z, why would any of the Cubs players (or professional athletes in general) be cheered? Rami makes 88% of what Z does this year… he doesn’t get 88% of the hatred that Z gets…
"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"
by AndrewJStone on Aug 10, 2009 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am not 100% positive,
but I am pretty sure NBF’s tongue was firmly planted in his cheek when making his post. Perhaps you missed that?
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 10, 2009 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If i missed that, my bad.
I hope NBF was joking.
But others on here aren’t. I’ve heard the “you hate player X because you are jealous!” argument before, and it is a failed one. Sure, i’m jealous. I’d love to be gifted enough to be able to play a game, be compensated they way they are, get to travel the country and world, the women, the fans, the cars, on and on. But allowing that to change my perception of them is pointless, as we’d then hate all athletes, politicians, entertainers….
If people dislike Z, they have their reasons. I just doubt jealousy is one.
"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"
by AndrewJStone on Aug 10, 2009 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
After about a year here...
I’ve just decided to treat Worf like one of the adults in a Charlie Brown cartoon…
All I hear is…
WAH WAH… WAH WAH WAH WAH…
- Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
- Germans?
- Forget it, he's rolling.
by Endrick on Aug 9, 2009 2:39 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
another good analogy
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 10, 2009 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It appears as if
Z has to take responsibility for his actions – for once.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Aug 9, 2009 6:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Like I said before get rid of carlos Zambrano
He will not win thirty more games as a Cub mark it down this guy is through and I spit on this fan post
only lawyers should care for grammar are you one?
by angryandy on Aug 9, 2009 8:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You're confused, poor thing
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 9, 2009 9:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll bet you $1,000 he wins at least 30 more as a Cub, with the proceeds going to Project 3000
Wanna bet?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 10, 2009 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
why so angry
andy?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 10, 2009 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
♪♫ Andy, Andy...why so angry? ♪♫
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Aug 10, 2009 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think its very hard to ignore the statistics that say Zambrano is an elite pitcher
of his era. Nearly every stat backs him up- be it “nerd” stats or even wins.
If you want to say that Z could be a better pitcher if he controlled himself and that his actions are offense to some, thats fine because I find that just as valid as his stats.
The fact is Zambrano is one of the elite pitchers in baseball right now, he might not act like Roy Halladay, but he’s just as good a pitcher statistically. He also makes his starts virtually every time out, something that a number of the “aces” people talk about don’t do.
We are lucky to have Z on this team, something that some might no realize until he is gone.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Aug 10, 2009 10:12 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
What does BP stand for?
My show opens this Friday 8/7. Come out and support a fellow Cubs fan?: Hot Beans Delivers
by digitalbenjamin on Aug 10, 2009 10:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Batting Practice -- I hope
If it’s British Petroleum, then I may have to “nevermind” this thread.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 10, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh good.
I was afraid it stood for Bill Pullman.
My show opens this Friday 8/7. Come out and support a fellow Cubs fan?: Hot Beans Delivers
by digitalbenjamin on Aug 10, 2009 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you seriously asking?
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 10, 2009 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm growing tired of this endless Z debate...
…but lemme throw my two cents in any way. As a couple others have pointed out, the Wittenmyer article in question hardly confirms anything. It’s not even clear how strongly the Cubs believe Zambrano might have aggravated his back in BP or whether Gordo just threw that out there and Lou shrugged and said off-handedly, “Yeah, could be that.”
And even if he did aggravate it during BP, that doesn’t automatically mean he was “swinging for the fences.” Carlos has a long, powerful swing. That’s how he hits, that’s how he always hits. He’s not going to start swinging like Ryan Theriot now.
To be honest, I somehow wasn’t aware until this weekend that Z even had a bulging disc in his lower back. (So DLee’s got one in his neck and Z has one in his back? Anyone else I should know about?) And if Carlos did slack off on treatments for it, much like he’s failed to stay hydrated for certain games, then, by all means, he should incur some criticism.
But anyone who uses this incident to build – or bolster – a case that Carlos Zambrano should not be a Chicago Cub has either given up on this team or wants to see it fail. For however flawed Carlos might be as a human being, he is a very good starting pitcher. And that’s all that should matter to Cubs fans. Naturally, it doesn’t.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Aug 10, 2009 11:00 AM CDT reply actions 5 recs
+1, Mambo.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 10, 2009 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
number 5
My show opens this Friday 8/7. Come out and support a fellow Cubs fan?: Hot Beans Delivers
by digitalbenjamin on Aug 10, 2009 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent Dan!!!!
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
by sue369 on Aug 10, 2009 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dan?
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Aug 10, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
MAAAAAAAAMBOOOOOOO CHICKEEEEEEEEEEENNNN!
FORM MOUSE AND KEYBOARD
FORM SCREEN AND HARD-DRIVE
And I’ll form… THE HEAD!
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 10, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I'm definitely taking the torso.
Sorry, Shanghai.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Aug 10, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So sorry Daver.
I was in a hurry to be somewhere this morning and I looked at the posting name wrong. So so sorry.
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
by sue369 on Aug 10, 2009 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure he'll forgive you Jill.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Aug 10, 2009 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
:-P
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
by sue369 on Aug 10, 2009 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ONE OF US! ONE OF US!
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Aug 10, 2009 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha, no problem.
I appreciate the compliment no matter what you call me.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Aug 11, 2009 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
good post
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 10, 2009 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure why...........
…………being critical of Zambrano’s behavior is grounds for a person to wanting to see the Cubs fail.
Help me connect the dots on that one.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
by tville on Aug 10, 2009 11:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Connecting the dots might be easier if you read what I wrote a little more carefully.
Let’s try again:
But anyone who uses this incident to build – or bolster – a case that Carlos Zambrano should not be a Chicago Cub has either given up on this team or wants to see it fail. For however flawed Carlos might be as a human being, he is a very good starting pitcher.
You can criticize him all you want – in some cases, he deserves it. But wanting him released or traded is an epic fail.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Aug 11, 2009 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the Cubs can improve their team.............
……….by moving Zambrano, then you, as a fan, would have to agree to such a move – yes?
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
by tville on Aug 11, 2009 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's unrealistic.
Zambrano salary is pretty close (maybe even slightly above) market value.
He has a full no trade clause.
Not only would he be difficult to trade, you wouldn’t be able to expect much back for him (teams won’t be willing to spend prospects on top of the dollars they’ll have to pay him).
See: Alex Rios for a recent example of this.
by Wreckard on Aug 11, 2009 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But hypothetically speaking..........
…………if the team can be improved, a Cubs fan should agree to move Zambrano, or for that matter, any player on the roster.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
by tville on Aug 11, 2009 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um, sure.
I think we can also agree that if the Cubs can find a cure for cancer then by all means they should. Hypothetically speaking.
I honestly can’t decide which one is more realistic.
by Wreckard on Aug 11, 2009 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kill 'em both with one stone.
I feel Zambrano is a form of cancer on the team, so by moving him in a deal that improves the Cubs, all ills are resolved.
Great suggestion!
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
by tville on Aug 11, 2009 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I would.
But if you can clearly and specifically explain to me how the Cubs could improve themselves as a team by subtracting one of their best starting pitchers, I will gladly buy a crateful of your biographies. And I’m talkin’ the hardbound editions here, not the paperback.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Aug 11, 2009 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
See Indians; Lee, Cliff.
Also try Padres; Peavy, Jake.
Even the Jays tried moving Halliday. It’s not like it isn’t done with regularity.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
by tville on Aug 11, 2009 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you've given up on this year's team and are calling it a season?
If so, then, yeah, sure – start trying to unload. But, as Wreckard mentions, it doesn’t seem likely the Cubs could get much in return for Z. And I still get the distinct impression many Cubs fans want to get rid of Carlos simply because his personality disagrees with them – and I think that’s a mistake given the fact that he’s a very good pitcher.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Aug 11, 2009 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not crying "uncle" as yet............
……….and it’s unlikely the Cubs could deal from a position of strength if trying to peddle Zambrano to another team. So from a practical perspective, no, it does not make sense, but IF he could be moved and the team improved, such a transaction should be entertained.
As for his “personality”, as you mention, that should have been corralled years ago by Duh-sty. Unfortunately Lou didn’t see fit to dress him down either, and it’s truly a shame a manager has not worked to appreciably mature Master Zambrano.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
by tville on Aug 11, 2009 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You honestly think those teams are improved by those moves?
Do you not think the Cubs will be competitive for the next 3-4 seasons?
The Padres have conceded to rebuilding from scratch and that they won’t be competitive for 3-4 years. The Indians meanwhile were selling high on a guy who was cost controlled and would be leaving for free agency after next year. In the short term, both teams are much worse. Neither replaced the production of their aces with what they received back.
Most importantly both Peavy and Lee were being paid below market value for their services. That’s not the case with Zambrano.
by Wreckard on Aug 11, 2009 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's reasonable to think.............
………..the Cubs could still be very competitive without Zambrano. If they could have gotten a package from the Phils (Drabek and others), there’s no reason to think the balance of the existing team could not carry on with above average success.
And at $15/$16/$17/$22 mil from 2010 thru 2013, I’m not sure Peavy’s salary looks that much different than Zambrano’s.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
by tville on Aug 11, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You just can’t replace that kind of production, and the Padres certainly haven’t replaced that with what they got for Peavy (mostly salary relief, with prospects that won’t help them in the immediate future).
Incidentally, the Padres got less for 4 years of Peavy than the Indians got for 1.5 years of Lee. On top of that, Peavy is actually more valuable than Zambrano, and paid less.
by Wreckard on Aug 11, 2009 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you know what they say, reading is
fun and mental.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Aug 11, 2009 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think John Madden retired and maybe even Favre, too? So you may already have your wish granted?
But if you were referring to Big Z, not sure why?
He’s a good hitter “for a pitcher” and he’s a far better hitter than some of the people inserted in to the daily lineup under the Dusty regime, but I digress…
Yes, it’s frustrating that one of the best pitchers works so hard at something that is not his comparative advantage—even to the point of injury. But I think he’d find another way to channel that competitiveness, whether it’s screaming at guys who just went yard on him (after he previously dusted or drilled them), or obliterating inanimate objects. It doesn’t matter. Yes, it’s frustrating, very frustrating but it’s old news.
I applaud Big Z, to a degree, for taking his hitting seriously, and I think he can continue to do so but perhaps with some better training in mind? However, when you invest so much in a pitcher the club itself doesn’t really care if he gets a hit all season. They want a return in the form of pitching. In this sense hitting for a pitcher in the NL is almost like some other dangerous activity that is prohibited under contract.
by DudeVf11 on Aug 10, 2009 11:12 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Again, with the taking hitting seriously...
I just don’t see it.
I think he takes hitting home runs seriously. I think he loves doing it and, for a pitcher, is pretty good at it.
But pitchers are almost never sent up to the plate with the idea that they will hit a three-run homer.
Pitchers are sent up to move runners over, work counts, try to keep innings alive. Most of the time, that is how they help the team.
I don’t see that with Zambrano.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 10, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you, except for the OP on Z being gone...
Just trying to be diplomatic to Big Z and his fan base.
He’s a productive player for the Cubs but a frustrating player for some fans (easily the most frustrating Cub for me since I have followed the team).
I am a strong advocate for the DH in the NL—end this joke of NL out-making.
by DudeVf11 on Aug 10, 2009 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A bold position.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Aug 10, 2009 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, that's because most pitchers...
…are lucky to hit a long ball or two in their careers. Z has proven he can help win games with his bat. (In fact, I think he’s knocked in the game-winning run already a couple times this season.)
My guess is Carlos just thinks he can do the most good by hitting the ball as hard as he can. I do agree that he’s generally awful at situational hitting, but I’m willing to grit my teeth and live with that given everything else he brings to the table.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Aug 10, 2009 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry Daver, didn't mean to repeat your post. I wrote mine before I got a chance
to scroll down and read yours. You know about great minds and all.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Aug 10, 2009 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No prob, and I'd add:
I would hope that we as fans would enjoy the extra dimension that he brings to this team.
Sadly, most fans seem content to complain about Z’s occasional temper tantrums and all the zeroes in his contract.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Aug 10, 2009 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is that such a problem for you? He has the ability to hit home runs. He
has done it on several occasions. The Cubs have taken advantage of that fact and have attempted to use his bat to help the team. To the best of my knowledge, he hasn’t been begging Lou to allow him to pinch hit. Lou has made that decision and you can’t blame him for that. As I recall he hasn’t been particularly good at pich-hitting anyway.
Zanbrano is an unusual player. He is a good pitcher that has the ability to help win games with his bat. He is not called on to move runners over, work counts and keep innings alive because unlike most pitchers, he has the ability to drive in runs more often than not. Yes, he has injured himself on occasion by trying to generate offense, but that’s a risk worth taking for the reward his bat can bring. Instead of expecting him to behave like other pitchers, I would hope that we as fans would enjoy the extra dimension that he brings to this team. As this year has proven, offensively, we need all the help we can get.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Aug 10, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
you know how
to “keep innings alive” ?
get a hit. Zambrano arguably does that better than any pitcher in baseball.
by CalCalender on Aug 10, 2009 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love seeing Z go out there and trying
to knock the cover off the ball every AB.
But when it interferes with the 91,500,000 reasons the Cubs have him in their rotation, then I object.
He has to get his head in the game and stop being so damned selfish.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Aug 10, 2009 6:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
How is practicing hitting selfish?
In what way does his hitting not help the team?
by Wreckard on Aug 10, 2009 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the point, the bottom line is...
He’s not getting all that money because he can hit. He’s getting it to pitch, to pitch deep into games, and as often as he can. He screws his back up because he gets rambunctious in the cage, he’s no good to anyone.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 10, 2009 9:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is just such post-hoc bs
He’s paid to help the Cubs win games.
He’s never hurt himself in BP before; it’s not like this is part of some pattern of egotistical self-abuse.
You people are nuts.
by Wreckard on Aug 10, 2009 10:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He never
cramped from lack of water before — until he did
never pulled a hammy running — until he did
never slugged a teammate – until he did
never broke bats over his knee — until he did.
We covered this. You disagree. Refrain from calling me nuts, OK?
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 10, 2009 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mucho...........
……….Pluso.
Defending Zambrano statistically is one thing, but defending his idiocy is, well, relatively indefensible.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
by tville on Aug 10, 2009 11:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh my god he got cramps and hurt himself during baseball activities
What a head case!!!!!
Obviously a player who got cramps a couple of times and got hurt doing baseball activities does more harm than good to this team. Plus he’s not an ace, which means he’s useless to us.
Better just get rid of him.
by Wreckard on Aug 10, 2009 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cramps from not properly hydrating
Injured doing stupid, non-pitching things.
You wanted a pattern. I gave you one.
Please do not pretend this is all isolated with Zambrano. It isn’t.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 10, 2009 11:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're connecting dots that aren't even in the same coloring book
Much like Bradley, the dislike Cubs fans have for him is unmerited given the crimes. All Z has ever done here is pitch extremely well, as well as some of the best pitchers in baseball, hit better than any pitcher in baseball, and provide bench flexibility with his skills.
The assumption that he was getting dehydrated due to stupidity or that he should have known better than to keep taking the batting practice he’s taken for years is beyond patronizing.
by Wreckard on Aug 10, 2009 11:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When a professional athlete
paid for what his body can do, fails to take proper care of that body with basic maintenance, THAT is a problem.
NO one disputes that Zambrano has been good to very good to flashes of great. No one disputes that he is one of the better hitting pitchers in baseball, although I have repeatedly said I think he has gotten lazy with his at-bats.
But there is a pattern of injuries, some of them self-destructive, that I think will only increase.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 11, 2009 6:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um Micah Owings would like to have a word with you
Of course he is a better hitter than he is a pitcher but still he is a better hitter than Z.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Aug 11, 2009 7:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ya know....
… is it possible for you and CalCalendar and whoever else to disagree with anyone without attempting to belittle them by calling them nuts or idiots or any kind of pejorative at all? Is it? I don’t think so, because you’ve yet to do it.
Yesterday, all I did was disagree that Zambrano was great. I called him good, very good, but old Cal insists that great has to be shoved down my throat, because he’s got stats that say so. Guess what? I disagree that an ERA of 3.41 is great. Sue me. Deal with it. Too bad for you guys. Whatever. I just don’t think he’s great. And I’m not wrong, either.
So today, all that’s said is bottom line, Zambrano got his money because of how he pitches, not how he bats. You called it bullshit, and out of then air, get worked up over shit I never said or hinted at , as in “it’s not like this is part of some pattern of egotistical self-abuse.”
Reality check- it is VERY possible, nay, probable bordering on a certainty, that many people will disaagree with you on baseball. More reality- that doesn’t make them dumber than you, know less about baseball than you, or have less money than you. They simply disagree. Moreover- they’re opinion isn’t wrong, either.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 10, 2009 11:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moreover- they’re opinion isn’t wrong, either.
Just their use of homonyms.
by Wreckard on Aug 10, 2009 11:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh please....
This is the best you can do?
Opinions are like assholes. We all got ’em, some are just a bit tighter than others.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 11, 2009 12:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it was
everybody’s got one, and they all stink.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 11, 2009 2:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it was
everybody’s got one and no one thinks theirs stinks
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 11, 2009 7:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure we'll get to the bottom of this eventually.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Aug 11, 2009 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was either that or respond in earnest
to the silly suggestion that somehow just because everyone is entitled to an opinion means that they’re all created equal.
There is such a thing as a wrong opinion. You are absolutely entitled to the the opinion that the world is flat – but the notion that it’s just as important as the opposite opinion, one backed by facts and evidence, is silly. If we gave equal time to all opinions regardless of their factual merit, we’d have Kansas. And no one wants that.
by Wreckard on Aug 11, 2009 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nevertheless, your attitude...
… toward people here with whom you disagree is not appreciated.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Aug 11, 2009 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and why
do you appreciate their attitude so much?
this is board for discussion if people post clearly ludicrous statements like “I’m angry at Z for running hard and getting hurt” they deserve to get called out on it.
This passive aggressive bs has got to stop. Worf puts on this incredibly abrasive act and when people challenge him back he throws his hands up and cries about it.
by CalCalender on Aug 11, 2009 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So essentially......
You want to declare yourself the post police and retain the right to tell others they’re not as smart as you because they don’t agree with your assessments.
Can you please tell us what the CalCalender web address is to send previews of posts so none of us ever post anything again that you find objectionable? It would help out a lot.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 11, 2009 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow... we're on what? 72 hours?
And you still haven’t gotten it?
You didn’t “challenge” me back. You resorted to insults from the get-go.
I can flame with you. I can argue dissertations with you. I can exchange Christmas Cards with you. I can even drink with you.
You started flaming and got flamed back. If you can’t understand those six words, then I can’t help you and I’ve lost interest in trying.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 11, 2009 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you dont
know how to “flame”
all you do is complain about people being mean to you
on the internet. you are the classic example of a passive aggressive poster
by CalCalender on Aug 11, 2009 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ask around... I know how to flame
I said repeatedly yesterday that I didn’t care about the personal insults. They were amusing because it revealed your utter lack of self-control and even more amusing because you try to justify it in the name of “logic”
I was irritated because Al was, in an understandable attempt to move on, doing the “both sides were wrong” routine.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 11, 2009 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you obvioulsy
do care. You have spent the last day and a half whining about myself and other posters being mean to you and calling you names.
Take a look around this thread, look at what comments are green and which are not, I am definitely not alone in calling you out for your nonsense. This isn’t a Cal vs Worf issue its a Logic & Fact vs Worf issue.
by CalCalender on Aug 11, 2009 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, my self-image
is crushed when three people recommend a snarky comment against me.
Three whole strangers on the Internet! Whatever shall I do???
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 11, 2009 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One other thing.......
…. as I’ve pointed out already, not everyone lives and breathes the type of statistical analysis you do. Some posters here, God forbid, may be as young/old as 10-12 years old and the best they can manage is “I’m angry at Z for running hard and getting hurt.” Posting something like that doesn’t make that opinion any less valid simply because you deign to think it “ludicrous.”
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 11, 2009 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
By 10-12 are we referring to chronologically or emotionally?
Just trying to verify if you’re talking about me.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Aug 11, 2009 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
worf
seems a lot older than 10-12. That you are correct in noting that his views on Zambrano hold the level of sophistication that you would expect from somebody that age.
by CalCalender on Aug 11, 2009 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
should be a
said between That and You.
My bad.
by CalCalender on Aug 11, 2009 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My God.....
… this sentiment couldn’t be any more pompous. Colin? Cowherd?
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 11, 2009 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It may appear
pompous to you. And trust me on matters I am not sure about I won’t be nearly as set in stone. But on this particular matter I am right and I have the facts to prove it. I’m not going to apologize for that or pretend their is gray area where there clearly is none.
Everybody seems to expect that Sabr and stat inclined folks present their views meekly and have this kind of “ive and let live” attitude. I take the opposite views, as long as you are correctly using stats you are using facts. Facts trump people’s personal views and assumptions.
You wouldn’t expect somebody teaching science or math to tell others “2 + 2 is 4 unless other people don’t think so, then you have to agree to disagree” would you? So why would you expect me to accept obviously flawed and incorrect assumptions when it comes to baseball?
by CalCalender on Aug 11, 2009 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unbelievable.........
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 11, 2009 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not sure what's so shocking about that.
Many people have incorrect opinions.
by Theroid on Aug 11, 2009 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm Curious......
After you’ve told a complete stranger how much smarter you are than them, that they’re not worthy enough to breath the same air as you or have the nerve to root for the same team, what’s in it for you? What kind of satisfaction do you get?
Seriously. Is your wife proud of you? Your mom? Do you high five yourself? Do you and the Wreckards of the world have a smug-off? Do you get laid? Does this in any way make you feel better about yourself? Boost your self-esteem? I mean, after all, you’ve just buried some person you’ll never, ever meet under an avalanche of statistical super know-how. Are there two prizes in your next box of Crackerjack?
This would make a fascinating case study.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 11, 2009 8:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
a great case study
would be to delve into this comment of yours.
insecurity much?
I have stated that in this case I am right and I am. I say it with certainty because I have evidence to back it up unlike Worf or yourself. Later on if I state something and you can prove it wrong I will happily admit to it because it will mean I learned something in the process.
And asking if I “get laid” or if my wife is proud of me is just weird.
Honestly, this is a strange comment.
by CalCalender on Aug 12, 2009 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is the whole problem I have with people who use stats and stats only to back up their positions.
Things in baseball aren’t always black and white, even if you claim you have “evidence” to back up your claim.
Your pompous, smug attitude doesn’t help matters any.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Aug 12, 2009 7:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok
1. I don’t “only” use stats, I have watched just about every game since the 01 season. That being said I don’t presume watching the game gives me any real insight but I do experience baseball outside of the boxscore and fangraphs.
2. Things aren’t always black and white. This is correct. We aren’t talking about “things” we are talking about this post, this specific argument. In this case it is black and white.
3. Why is “evidence” in quotes here? It is dubious to collect 7 years worth of data which is free to the public and present it? I even used common stats that everybody accepts like wins or ERA to bolster my case. And I don’t “claim” to have evidence, I have it (and so do you). I also shared it and the source for anyone who was curious.
by CalCalender on Aug 12, 2009 8:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do you keep trying to frame this debate as "Stat guys vs Everyone else"?
Not only are you implicitly taking a side when you do that, it completely ignores everything others have brought up. To me this is about not personally attacking the players and being able to support your opinions.
by Wreckard on Aug 12, 2009 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're about as clueless as they come
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 12, 2009 7:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
To expand on clueless
You have a glaring inability to see yourself as others see you. Great for you, a few other stat heads rec’d a post. But this blog isn’t meant as a forum to show off anyone’s knowledge, to declare one’s opinion better than another’s, to strut around and bury people under link after link of someone’s idea of measuring baseball worth, or certainly some kind of a competition declaring one person’s opinion wrong and you the smarter of them all.
People come here because they like the Cubs. Indeed, 10 year olds to over 70 year olds post here because they like baseball. Quite frankly, it can do without smug post police who lord themselves over others here and decide who is worthy and who isn’t. So what if someone doesn’t think Zambrano is great, or does things that unnecessarily hurt himself, or think he’s a crybaby. It really means that much to you to have to step in and trample all over someone? it isn’t enough to simply say “I disagree” without insisting over and over, complete with links ad nauseum, that YOU’RE RIGHT!?
Baseball fandom doesn’t revolve around you, or any other stat head. There’s a place for you certainly, but it’s a place no bigger or better than anyone else’s. Create your own threads, declare yourself King, that’s okay. We don’t mind. We won’t be reading them anyway, but at least you’ve had your say. But if you simply MUST make sure everyone knows you’re a better fan or more informed than us lowly, hick fans, who have somehow managed to do just fine without you until now, consider taking it and sapping someone else’s fun and enjoyment elsewhere.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 12, 2009 8:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
again
you are projecting you personal problems with “stat people” onto me. I never posted I am the King, in fact I don’t know near as much as guys like Tango, CWyers or Harry Pavlidis. I was posting ABOUT THIS TOPIC. Nothing more.
If posting information in an argument is “showing off” to you then too bad. And if reading information about your favorite team and it’s players “saps the fun” out of it for you then I’m sorry.
Just keep in mind I am not the big bad Stat boogeyman in persona here to terrorize you.
by CalCalender on Aug 12, 2009 8:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You still really don't understand why people don't like your attitude, do you.
I give up. You never will.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Aug 12, 2009 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i get
it.
maybe I don’t care/want certain posters to like my eAttitude.
Others on this site don’t seem to mind so much.
by CalCalender on Aug 12, 2009 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, you really don't
Otherwise, your answers here would be different. Moreover, you’d realize the manner in which I made the comments re: your wife that you take exception. They were rhetorical, done in an effort to find out why you feel the need to tell people they’re wrong because your stats say so.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Aug 12, 2009 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You still insist on this persona...
I really think you believe at this point that you came into this thread with a tweed jacket and a pipe and a bushel full of stats.
You ranted, called me and others names, then expected us to read stats and respond to you like we were having Earl Grey in the Oxford teacher’s lounge.
If you want to be responded to as Professor Plum, then act like it. If you want to be responded to as Mort from Crystal Lake calling into the North show, then act like it.
And for the last time, I couldn’t care less what you call me. My beef was with Al’s — somewhat understandable, but no less irritating — attempt to make it morally equivalent for the sake of refereeing.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 12, 2009 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does the jacket have elbow patches?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 12, 2009 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i could really
care less about you and how you respond to anything I write. I have read your stuff before this thread I knew your schtick ahead of time. Unfortounatly other people read your work and I was posting the truth about the matter for them.
Also- more projection fun. Only this time instead of stranger imagining me banging my wife or the level of my mom’s pride we have a guy imagining what I dress like.
You guys are fun.
by CalCalender on Aug 12, 2009 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honest question here
If someone you are acquainted with says something that you disagree with, do you patiently explain why you feel they are wrong, or do you preface it by calling them stupid?
Third option – do you think that options one and two are essentially the same?
Essentially, that’s what Worf is saying – and you strike me as someone who is intelligent enough to realize this.
So, either you’ve got me fooled on that, or you are now just deliberately trying to provoke.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 12, 2009 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's trying to provoke, and...
… he also seems to think that attacking people anonymously on the internet is OK. Not here, it isn’t.
I guarantee you he wouldn’t have said most of the things he said if he were face to face with any of us.
Some people can’t seem to follow that simple rule, which every single person who has signed up for this site has agreed to.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Aug 12, 2009 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
depends
1. With my close friends I would call them stupid but that wont cause any hurt feelings among us. With co-workers I would try and be more patient.
2. Worf isn’t a stranger. He has posted this same story with a different title over and over. That lead to alot my annoyance and is partly why I came in right way with the idiots ect ect.
by CalCalender on Aug 12, 2009 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
honestly
Al it seems that you will allow a certain group of people to say and do whatever they want and get after people like me or Wreckard for talking back to them.
go look at beercubs comments from last night, thats weird stuff man and you didnt say word one to him.
by CalCalender on Aug 12, 2009 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
for crying out loud
let it go why don’t you? You made your point twenty posts ago.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
--Winston Churchill
by lookingdeadred on Aug 12, 2009 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you probably
have a good point here. advice taken
by CalCalender on Aug 12, 2009 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, I talk to my friends like that
And they’ll do the same – for the same reasons as you; that’s just the way we talk to each other and everyone realizes nothing is meant by it.
You have changed your story a bit, though. Some posts say you were frustrated by people ignoring stats, in others it’s this particular post, and now it’s just Worf in general.
I’m not trying to knock you, but it seems like you may have looked back and realized some of the comments weren’t necessary, so you’re trying to justify them – but the explanations aren’t holding water. I’ve done that at times, too.
My $0.02 is that the discussions would go a lot further, and more productively, without the insults. YMMV.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 12, 2009 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i was and remain
frustrated by all of those things. And I think the majority of those comments are more than justified.
but think lookingdeadred is correct in saying I have helped to beat this horse’s bones to dust so I’m going to bow out.
by CalCalender on Aug 12, 2009 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Way to stick to the high road there bucky.
Seriously. Is your wife proud of you? Your mom? Do you high five yourself? Do you and the Wreckards of the world have a smug-off? Do you get laid? Does this in any way make you feel better about yourself? Boost your self-esteem? I mean, after all, you’ve just buried some person you’ll never, ever meet under an avalanche of statistical super know-how. Are there two prizes in your next box of Crackerjack?
You’re just flailing wildly at this point hoping something will stick. It would be sad if it wasn’t so funny.
by Wreckard on Aug 12, 2009 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Way to get the name wrong of the person you are replying to.
But then, since you’re always correct, I guess it must have been me that wrote the post with BeerCubs account.
FAIL.
We now return you to your regulary scheduled sanctimonious arrogance.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 12, 2009 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn it. I FAIL.
Poor assumption on my part, followed by overreaction.
Bucky. Badger.
Sorry.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 12, 2009 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for understanding
Clearly, I was looking for trouble, and I am hereby banning myself from this thread.
I’ll see you in other threads.
Peace.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 12, 2009 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
For some reason, this interaction reminds me of this non-baseball-related YouTube clip a friend of mine sent me this morning. I swear it’s not a Rickroll.
I've committed to tweeting about the Cubs for the rest of the season. (Does that sound as ridiculous as I think it does?) Anyway, if you're on Twitter, you can follow me here.
by dat cubfan daver on Aug 12, 2009 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's pompous to suggest that people are capable of being wrong?
That statements which can be disproved are less valuable than statements which can be supported?
That if you can hold an opinion which you can’t support that you should probably question that opinion?
Look, you should really know that there’s no shame in being proven wrong. It happens to everyone. I know you think that CC and I think ourselves beyond reproach, but I’m sure we’d both be the first to admit that it happens to us all the time.
For example, I used to have a very low opinion of Theriot, particularly his fielding. But as the evidence came out, it turned out that not only was he not horrible, he was downright average. I was happy to admit I was wrong about him.
Part of being a functional human being in this world involves being able to inspect your own biases and opinions and force yourself to challenge them. Otherwise you run the danger of having your worldview become dangerously out of step with reality.
by Wreckard on Aug 12, 2009 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I am certain that he was signed for his hitting ability. And when the team is apparently
…concerned about his BP I think what they mean is that he needs MORE of it and just has to tough it out, swing harder. They’ve also indicated that Z is going to instructional league on days when he isn’t pitching so he can earn his money filling in for Aramis.
by DudeVf11 on Aug 11, 2009 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting poll on ESPN radio
Who do you have more faith in, Z, or Tommie Harris?
"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver
by wrigleyrocker12 on Aug 11, 2009 1:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
ach, I'll go with Z
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Aug 11, 2009 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

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