Cubs Beat Brewers 13-7 In Walkathon
by Al Yellon on Sep 16, 2009 7:52 AM CDT
in Chicago Cubs Recaps
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PrintIt's been more than six years since the Cubs have walked as many times -- 12 -- as they did last night. That game, a 15-2 win over the Mets on March 31, 2003 in New York, featured a career day (two HR, seven RBI) from a man who appeared as a pinch-hitter for the Brewers on Tuesday night -- Corey Patterson.
Tuesday night's game was that kind of game. The Cubs beat the Brewers 13-7, scoring almost as many runs as the Bears had points (15) on Sunday, and it got closer when a former football player, Jeff Samardzija, given up two consolation runs to Milwaukee in the ninth inning.
More on walks: only six games since 1954 have featured more walks by a Cubs team, and only one of those -- a 20-9 win over the Giants on August 13, 1959 -- had even one HBP. Last night's game featured three. Two of them came in the Cubs' five-run sixth inning, and the second of those, to Aramis Ramirez, "drove" in a run. (Milton Bradley also got a RBI on a HBP, in the seventh.) The Cubs scored eight runs in their last three innings on only four hits and the 13-run outburst, the second-biggest of 2009, was accomplished with only one home run. The roundtripper came off the bat of Geovany Soto, who, perhaps better late than never, is beginning to hit like the Rookie of the Year we saw in 2008. Geo has started only seven games in September, but is hitting .360/.452/.800 in those games, with two homers and 12 RBI.
Even more on walks: the Cubs had two different players, Ryan Theriot and Derrek Lee, who walked four times. That's nowhere near a record, but Theriot, after striking out and singling in his first two times up, walked four consecutive times (off four different pitchers), and Lee was two-for-two (a single and a double) in his non-base-on-balls plate appearances. The Cubs overall sent 50 batters to the plate, but had only 34 official at-bats (the other 16: the 12 walks, the three HBP, and a deep fly ball to CF by Carlos Zambrano that went for a sacrifice fly).
Speaking of Z, Paul Sullivan's game story criticizes him for alleged antics during the Brewers' five-run fifth inning, after which Carlos was pulled (having thrown 103 pitches):
But Zambrano's histrionics overshadowed everything. During the five-run fifth, he showed up outfielder Bobby Scales by making faces and waving his hands when Scales didn't throw home on Ryan Braun's run-scoring single. Pitching coach Larry Rothschild came out to calm down Zambrano, but the pitcher made no eye contact during the visit.
I dunno. I didn't see it that way, although I also wondered why Scales made no attempt to throw to the plate on Braun's hit. It was a horrendous inning -- all the Brewers' action came after two were out and no one on base, and Z threw 39 pitches -- but the last two runs weren't really Z's fault. Ryan Theriot fumbled what should have been an inning-ending ground ball by Casey McGehee (after Z had intentionally walked Prince Fielder to load the bases), and Mike Cameron drove in the final pair of runs after that. Theriot's blunder was originally ruled an error, but later changed to a hit by the official scorer. It should have remained an error; a major league shortstop should make that play.
I doth, as the saying goes, protest too much. Z was dominant for the first four innings, allowing only a triple in the RF gap to Brewers rookie Alcides Escobar and hitting 95+ on the Wrigley Field boards showing pitch speed several times. It could have, and probably should have, been an easy six-inning quality start and win for Z. Instead, the win went to Aaron Heilman, who had an efficient scoreless sixth inning. Since August 12, in his last nine appearances Heilman has thrown 12 innings with nine strikeouts and a 1.50 ERA and more importantly, has issued only one walk during those nine outings. In fact, before Samardzija came in during garbage time, the bullpen did an excellent job of keeping the Brewers down while the Cubs were piling up walks and runs -- three hitless innings with only one walk from Heilman, Kevin Gregg and Esmailin Caridad.
An announced crowd of 38,986 included maybe 8,000 no-shows, as the ballpark filled up late despite a windier and slightly cooler night than Monday. Those who did come were treated to an enjoyable, if rather lengthy (three hours, 20 minutes) victory, the Cubs' 10th in 14 games in September. Do not give up, my friends. The Rockies lost again last night and the Cubs crept to within 5.5 games of the wild-card lead. It's still a longshot -- but possible. Keep the faith and go Cubs.
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Only 4 back in the loss column in the WC.
Stranger things have happened in this game folks.
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
4 game set with Giants seems really big right now
Maybe for once their luck against +.500 teams and playing on the road can and will turn around?
I still have hope, but it remains a VERY long shot
The Rockies are 82-64 with 16 games left.
The Cubs are 75-68 with 19 games left.
If the Rockies go 8-8, the Cubs would have to finish 15-4 to tie.
Additionally, SF, ATL, FLA couldn’t get hot either.
Lets say that the Cubs finish the year at 16-3 the rest of the way. (Which would be pretty incredible.) That means that the four teams in front could not be better than:
COL : 9-7
SF : 11-5
FLA : 14-3
ATL : 15-3
Obviously the Cubs can catch FLA and ATL without too much trouble. But they have to get white hot to catch COL and really hot to catch SF at this point. If the Cubs are are more realistic 13-5 then COL must finish no better than 7-9 and SF no better than 9-7 the rest of the way.
I just don’t see it. Sorry guys. I do hope, but I fear it is a fools errand.
But we are Cubs fans and I will pay attention and cheer and root and hope until we are mathematically eliminated.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
by Archie on Sep 16, 2009 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
You are correct
That’s why this is really “1 game at a time” time.
It’s not likely, but if the Cubs won 6 of the next 8, the Rox lost today, 2 in Az and 2 in SD, and SF got swept by LA and lost 2 to Az, the Cubs would go into the SF series down 2 to COL and 0.5 to SF.
Again, not likely, but then the records needed with games remaining looks a lot more doable.
In other words, yeah, I don’t see it, either. Check back in a week or so . . . .
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions
Yup
Exactly. Long shot.
“So you’re saying there is a chance.”
I tend to agree with Jim Carrey. As long as there is a shot, I’m still hopin.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
As long shots go....
….it was a substantially longer shot 48 hours ago.
Another 2 days like this, and we’re suddenly in it.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Another 4, more likely
3.5 out with no games against the front-runners is still a big deficit at this point.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions
But there ARE games vs. one of the teams ahead of the Cubs.
Four with the Giants, who the Cubs trail by three (two in the loss column).
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The Giants aren't the front-runners
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions
Sure, but the Cubs still have to pass the Rockies
(And Braves and Marlins, but for the Cubs to catch the others, they’d likely have to play so well that those two become irrelevant.)
The Cubs have 0 games left with the Rockies – whether they are 1st or 2nd. It’s still a tall order at this point.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Oh, I know that.
But this has been a strange, streaky year, not just for the Cubs but for many teams — including the Rockies.
Just keep winning.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Agreed.
But it’ll take more than 2 days like the last two to make it seem less, well, ridiculous.
If they can cut it to 3 as of Sunday night (a tall order) and pass at least one team, it starts to get interesting. I just don’t see them taking 3 of 4 in SF.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions
The Cubs have not rattled off a long, sustained winning streak this season.
While there’s no prior evidence to show that this team can do it now, you never know. Winning streaks often come unexpectedly. So, what’s to say it can’t happen? It would be one of the more remarkable comebacks in the game…
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
It is possible
I still check the scoreboard.
However, I’m also trying to be realistic. Remember who they are playing right now – PGH, CIN, MIL. And don’t forget how bad they looked against the Mets, Padres and Nationals recently.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions
Sure. I don't think anyone's getting their hopes up until there is a TANGIBLE chance...
…and we’re still aways away from that- if ever.
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
Agreed.
The Brewers aren’t a bad team, either — they’ve still got some pretty good bats. Just win your games and see what happens.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Their record says they are bad.
Again, I’m not saying it’s impossible. Just trying to be realistic.
And no, I won’t come on here and crow if the Cubs lose 3 or 4 to SF . . . I’ll be disappointed if that happens. But not surprised.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions
I saw the Brewers
in person three times this past weekend as they swept the D’Backs and they looked pretty good to me. That doggone McGahee absolutely killed us. But, having said that, they definitely are a bunch of free swingers. I don’t think they are a bad team, but I do think the Cubs are a tough match-up for them. Their pitching is not deep and they do not do the little things you need to do to win a lot of ball games (see Cardinals and Dodgers).
Considering
the fact that the Giants are winning at a .667 clip at home, I think if the Cubs avoid losing 3 out of 4, then that would be surprising.
I agree, but am still hoping Corey Patterson gets a start.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
The Series in SF
shapes up to be an intriguing one. The Giants are a BAD offensive team that really struggles to manufacture runs. But, with Lincecum, Cain and even Zito, lately, they have stayed in the WC chase, although they are prone to go into an offensive funk at any time, despite hanging 10 on the Rockies last night.
I don’t know how the series in SF will turn out, but I am fairly certain you will see close games. The bad new is that the Giants have the best home record (48-25) in the National League.
The Cubs' starting pitching can match up well with the Giants'.
Like you, I would expect close, low-scoring games.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Agreed.
As of now, it looks this way:
Thurs 9/24: Penny vs Dempster
Fri 9/25: Lincecum vs Zambrano
Sat 9/26: Zito vs Harden
Sun 9/27: Cain vs Wells
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Lots of 2-1 games there
Except Lincecum vs Z. That one will be 0-0 in the 7th and then SF will score 15 on a Z implosion.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
Unless Zambrano gets mad
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions
*earlier
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Like in the 2nd
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
at first glance...
that looks like W L W and a push. I like it.
I kinda wish Lilly were in the mix, but if that means Lilly shuts down the Brew Crew on the 23rd putting us in a good mood for the flight out west, I can live with that.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Don't know if you saw Zito
last night, but he was filthy…and his curveball had the Rockies talking to themselves. He has given up 2 ERs or less in 8 out his last 10 outings.
I watched from the 5th inning on
I cant ascertain whether he’s fully back to his former self quite yet. But that 10-to-4 curve ball sure looked filthy. However, he threw a few hangers that looked—and were—rather hittable.
Al, the Cubs' starting pitching matches up with ANYONE
Hell, they had an ERA below 2 on the SD/LA trip. They simply don’t hit!
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Rockies and Giants
I was at the game last Saturday in SD v. Rockies and the Rockies look lethargic and a little dispirited. The Padres were enjoying kicking the Rockies around. The Rockies are not doing any better against the Giants in SF. Have my tickets for the four Cubs/Giants series and I suspect that those games will be pivotal for us.
wccubfan
As long as we're playing this game:
ATL remaining schedule (my guess at wins in parentheses):
2 v NYM (1)
3 v PHI (1)
3 @ NYM (2)
3 @ WAS (2)
3 v FLA (1)
4 v WAS (3)
That would give them 86 wins.
FLA:
1 @ STL (0)
4 @ CIN (3)
3 v PHI (1)
3 v NYM (2)
3 @ ATL (2)
3 @ PHI (1)
That would give them 86 wins, as well.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Dugg and recommended for truth.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
15-4 is entirely within the realm of possibility
Look at the rest of the schedule:
Finish the sweep of the Brewers. Take 2 of 3 at StL. 2 of 3 at Mil. Split SF. Then come home and win out against Pgh and Ari. As long as the team keeps on hitting, the starting pitching can sustain a streak like this, easy.
Taking 2 out of 3 from StL is key. If we don’t do that, then we’d almost have to take 3 out of 4 from SF and that would be extremely difficult.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Yep, forget the blue kool-aid - Hopium* anyone?
( * credit Tribune’s John Kass for coming up with that word, though his intent had nothing to do with the Cubs…)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Soto and I are IN!
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly
Winning streaks are odd, though. The 2007 Rockies went 14-1 to close the season and then 7-0 in their first two postseason series. Before all of that, they were 76-72 and their longest winning streak prior to that was 6. Then they went 21-1.
It still could happen.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
People always cite
the Rockies run in 2007 as an example of what can happen, but when you look closer at it, it was a bit of a unique circumstance. In that run, the Rockies beat the Dodgers 7 times and took 6 out of 7 from the Padres. That’s more than half of their wins in that streak against just two teams.
The Dodgers were in an absolute free fall that September, losing 12 of their last 15. The Padres also struggled down the stretch and had several key injuries (including Milton Bradley). The Rockies also had amazing good fortune in consistently missing their opponents ace pitcher, and they had the bulk of their games at home.
It was an amazing streak, but not one that is likely to happen again soon, unless the stars line up again like they did for the Rockies that year – and that happens once in a blue moon.
Sure, but the schedule does line up pretty well for the Cubs
Milwaukee could just as easily be that team in free-fall, allowing the Cubs to win 7 games against them down the stretch.
Add 3 with Pittsburgh, and there’s 10 wins right there.
Is it likely to happen? No. But there’s a chance. And it’s gotten better each of the last few days.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Bill Potter on Sep 16, 2009 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions
But
there is 4 in SF and 3 in St. Louis, both of whom have outstanding home records, that kind of offsets that. Also, the D’Backs series at the end of the year is no gimmee. The D’Backs own the Cubs and beat them 2 out of 3 earlier this year when they couldn’t beat anybody. The poster that assumes a sweep is dreaming, especially if Haren pitches one of the games, which is likely. The D’Backs love hitting against Lilly.
The D'backs only own the Cubs in Phoenix.
Or have you forgotten that the Cubs swept the D’backs at Wrigley last year at a time when Arizona came in at 21-9 and everyone was already anointing them a 2008 playoff tem?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I remember that.
People were jumping on the Diamondbacks bandwagon just as they had jumped on the Mets bandwagon earlier last year.
That’s why they play the game. Arizona may have started 21-9, but they faded after the Cubs series and missed the playoffs.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2009 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Also I might add
that same Dodger team that the D’Backs finished two games behind, swept the best Cubs team in recent memory right out of the playoffs.
No, I didn't forget
Nor did I forget that the year before, the D’Backs took 3 out of 4 from the Cubs at Wrigley, including a playoff game.
Also, in 2008, the Cubs missed Webb and 2 of the 3 were against a rookie pitcher making like, his 3rd or 4th start and a pitcher who was later released.
Sometimes you gotta look closer to get the full picture, especially when using a small sample.
The bigger picture is the D’Backs are 50-33 (.602) all time against the Cubs, that’s ownership. http://tinyurl.com/cjp7au
To expect the Cubs to sweep is a real stretch, which was my original point.
At the same time...
… the D’backs are having a miserable season, second-worst in their history (excluding the first, expansion season).
Since September 1 they are 4-10 and are 6-15 in their last 21 road games.
This should be a series the Cubs should win, or possibly sweep.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The D'Backs won
only one series in the first 7 weeks of the season this year.
It was against the Cubs.
Correct
and right in the middle of one of their worst stretches in this miserable season for the D’Backs, they stepped out of character and beat the Cubs 2 out of 3, taking the 2 games by a combined 17-2 score.
Even in the horrible 111 loss 2004 season, the D’Backs managed to take 4 out of 6 from the Cubs. That is what ownership is all about. You beat a team when it makes no sense.
BTW, did you know that the D’Backs managed to post winning records in 7 out of their first 10 seasons?
The D'backs own the Cubs in Arizona
The Cubs swept Arizona at Wrigley last year, IIRC.
Asking for 2 of 3 in St. Louis and a split in San Francisco isn too much to ask, given how this team has played in September.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
And the Cubs are finding different ways to win games
Both Monday’s win (low-scoring) and Tuesday (taking pitches) are games they haven’t won all year.
The odds are still long, but the Cubs are making it very interesting. 5.5 games out of the Wild Card doesn’t seem like the longest of shots now that they’re playing well.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Did they play well last night, or
did they get a gift?
12 walks and 3 HBP . . . you damn well better win.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree with that
I don’t much care how the Cubs win, if they win.
Again, I’m just saying that doesn’t make me think they can sweep the Cards or win 3 from the Giants.
I don’t think they are good enough. But I hope I am wrong, and I plan to watch to find out.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions
And I think that most people are here are realists and do know that it is still a long shot
BUT! Things are shaping up, the team is playing well, and maybe, JUST MAYBE, we are starting to realize our potential as a ballclub.
Albert Pujols for Cubs Starting 1B in 2012
Well, win tonight and see what happens.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Just Win Baby! - Al Davis
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
Probably a bit of both
Would the Cubs of May/June and August found a way to manufacture some of those runs or come up with a timely hit?
It certainly didn’t feel like that kind of run-building and crooked-number innings were happening earlier in the year.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Cards are losing, 3-0, as we speak
though it’s early (top 2).
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Catching the Marlins is more realistic
Just sayin’
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd agree.
Got to start with the Fish and Braves, which can happen soon.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Because
they are 5-5 in their last 10, which leaves then 34-15 since they acquired Matt Holliday?
You’re grasping at straws, Al.
no he is not
He simply stated that they are looking beatable, which when you go 5-5 you do.
You don’t look beatable when you go a month and not have a game gained on you by teams trailing you in the division
Albert Pujols for Cubs Starting 1B in 2012
Semantics
It did come across like the Cards are coming back to the pack.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, when you lose 4/5 and possible 5/6 losing 4 games off your lead.....
aren’t you coming back to the pack?
Albert Pujols for Cubs Starting 1B in 2012
Right now, they've lost 3 of a 11.5 game lead
That’s not really coming back to the pack.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions
To those teams trailing and crawling through the desert, it looks like it...
They’ll take any sign of water they can get- even if it is a mirage…
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
I'll take 4 of a 9.5 game lead...
hell. thats like half way?!
Albert Pujols for Cubs Starting 1B in 2012
That's not what they've gotten
3/11.5 = 26%
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions
We were talking about the Cardinals coming back
No one mentioned the Rockies coming back to the pack.
Actually, the Rockies never really pulled away.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, at least they're heading in the right direction...
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I don't know that they are
As someone else wrote, it probably would have been better for the Cubs for STL to beat up on ATL and FLA.
9 of the Cardinals’ last 12 are against Houston, Cincinatti and Milwaukee . . . anyone here really think they’ll lose 8-10 of those?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions
You don't
get extra credit for winning by 12 instead of 7. The Cardinals have gone into victory lap mode.
victory lap mode?
You go into victory lap mode two weeks before the most important games of the year? with a magic number of 10?
Albert Pujols for Cubs Starting 1B in 2012
Yeah, that can be dangerous...
… as the article you (azjazzman) posted indicates.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Right
As we know from last year, momentum is night a switch you can flip
Albert Pujols for Cubs Starting 1B in 2012
I thought momentum was tonight's starting pitcher...
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
Your collective perception
of what happened in last year’s NLDS differs markedly from mine. People on here seem to think the Cubs lost a series they should have won. My perception is that the Cubs ran into a buzzsaw that had played lights out in September riding the wave of Manny-mania, and it wouldn’t have made any difference how Piniella managed down the stretch, their goose was cooked.
No my perception is that
The Cubs ran into a RED hot Dodgers team rolling for a month of Manny-mania and the Cubs
were doing the exact opposite in ‘resting starters’
Albert Pujols for Cubs Starting 1B in 2012
Well, as I said
Lou could’ve done it six different ways and the outcome would have been the same. The Dodgers were never headed in that series…the Cubs never had a lead after inning 4 of Game One.
He could have yanked Dempster after the 15th walk...
or started Lilly in a game.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Yup, he could have
and the result would have been the same. Note that the game that Lilly would have started was 3-1.
Your powers of predicting the past are amazing.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions
not to mention his penchant for shooting down the future
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
not really
actually, it’s pretty funny watching you singlehandedly trying to extinguish all the flames of hope these waning days of the season. Almost like it’s your sworn duty or something.
“Must destroy hope.”
“Crush fans’ spirit.”
“Step on puppies’ tails”
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Yeah
I guess this will get me on the watch list for potential banning.
Instead of refuting anything I say, you question my motives or attack me. I am just trying to inject some common sense and I am accused of raining on people’s parades. I guess I can live with that.
Tell me something
how many 1-0 games has Lilly won in his career? Hint: He’s only pitched two shutouts .
We get it...you declare that we were destined to lose last year.
Some of us disagree. I guess that makes stupid in your eyes. The whole thing is silly anyway, I’m done debating about what might have happened in the past.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Again I apologize
I know that when logic and common sense are introduced into these threads, the typical response is “I’m done”.
Now you're just being a ridiculous jerk.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Which just proves
my point from yesterday about the intolerance here for any point of view that doesn’t fit the accepted company line. Sort of like Nazi Germany.
Lemme guess...
we’re all also racists too.
If you can’t see the lunacy of taking the position that the Cubs were going to lose “no matter what”, then what sort of “logic and/or common sense” could I use to dissuade you?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, that depends
we’re all also racists too
If you criticize Milton Bradley, regardless of the merit of your argument, to some that makes you racist . . .
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Okay
when the conversation takes a turn into this area, I’m done. I don’t know why you guys can’t have a normal baseball discussion without dragging racism and personal attacks into it.
LOL....who brought up Nazi Germany again?
Do you ever strain your shoulder patting yourself on the back?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Hey, you're right!
“I’m done” is the typical response. You just did it yourself!
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
Suit yourself
I wasn’t commenting on you or SWL with that post.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions
i didn't see any personal attack
he is simply pointing out that there is no point in having said “logical baseball discussion” with you because you feel there is no way the Cubs can come back. You want us to drink your negative or “realist” kool-aid without acknowledging that our "hopeful the Cubs might just pull it off " kool-aid even exists or has any merit
Albert Pujols for Cubs Starting 1B in 2012
I guess in your
bizarro world calling someone a “ridiculous jerk” isn’t personal attack. And for the record, my bringing up Nazi Germany was in the context of the suppression of ideas that do not conform, not in the racist context. That was somebody else.
would you consider calling my world bizarro
a personal attack?
Albert Pujols for Cubs Starting 1B in 2012
then i think you are being a little sensitive
to being called a sensitive jerk
Albert Pujols for Cubs Starting 1B in 2012
In my "bizzaro world"...
disguising an insult inside an “apology” is being a jerk.
And just so you don’t make the mistake again….the suppression of ideas is not going to be the most popular topic associated with Nazi Germany. You could have chosen any number of better options….China, North Korea, The Borg, etc…
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Daleks, Cybermen . . .
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Oprah Fans.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions
In the context I used it
it was entirely appropriate and fitting. And with everyone subsequent post you prove it. Or were the book burnings a figment of history’s collective imaginations? You are the one that is trying to twist what I said into something else.
Oh I acknowledge that it exists
this thread is ample proof of that. As far as it having merit, yes, you are pretty much right about that.
If the "I'm done" was intentional...
…that was pretty funny. A tip of the “wry humor” hat to you, azjazzman. And I’m being totally serious.
If it was a freudian slip, well… just pretend it was intentional.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
No
I do not see the lunacy at all. And I certainly am not going to just take your word for it. How can you possible think that the Cubs were even in that series last year? It was about as dominating as any 3 game sweep I have seen. Yet. you say I am delusional when I say that the Cubs were toast. What possible factual information can you provide that contradicts that?
It's subjective either way
The guess here is if Dempster doesn’t allow the slam in game 1, the Cubs win that game.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions
That's an interesting guess
but not one that is supportable in any way by logic and common sense. The score of that game was 7-2. Do you honestly feel that even if you take the slam out, that the Cubs would have held the Dodgers to less than 2 runs?
If someone did honestly feel that way...
how is it any different than you feeling that they wouldn’t have?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions
The evidence
of the rest of Game 1 and the rest of the series, where the Cubs were not competitive at all. If it was just a case of take out one play and then the substance of the rest of the series was highly competitive, that would be one thing. But, you and I both know that was not even close to being the case.
You do?
So you don’t think that the attitude changed following the homerun?
I do.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions
I think that i could find 100,000k people to agree with you
Albert Pujols for Cubs Starting 1B in 2012
Or if say,
DeRosa fields a routine DP ground ball to end the inning in Game 2 instead of kicking it and opening the floodgates?
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
He was destined to boot that ball...
there was nothing anyone could have done to stop it. We were predestined to lose regardless. If he’d made the play, someone else would have done something else or not done something else to lose the game.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Well here let me help you with that
why don’t we just say substitute the Phillirs for the Cubs in the NLDS and then, yes, I do think the outcome might have been different. That really isn’t a whole lot sillier than saying what you guys are saying.
Your opinion and ours are merely 2 sides of the same coin.
I don’t know why you can’t see that.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions
So you're saying that if that batter is out
That the other events unfold exactly the same way that they did?
Really?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions
SVP Ryen Rascillo would be very disappointed to hear this
Albert Pujols for Cubs Starting 1B in 2012
Of course I'm not saying that
but I am saying that they played 27 innings and with the one or two brief exceptions the Cubs never gave any indication that they belonged on the same field as the Dodgers. If you think taking away one swing of the bat changes all that, welcome to Never Never Land.
I think one swing of the bat sent all of Cubs Nation
into here we go again mode
Albert Pujols for Cubs Starting 1B in 2012
I think you are vastly underestimating
The influence of emotion on athletic competition.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions
I think you are vastly
underestimating how throughly the Dodgers dominated the Cubs in every facet that makes up a baseball game.
This is a Kafka novel.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions
LOL, nice comparison.
You just officially crossed the line from “defensive” to “irrational.”
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
You just joined the BCB SS daver!
Your armband will be mailed to you ASAP.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions
I think there should be a
BCB S.S. Daver.
Instead of a naked woman, the bow would have a mamochicken.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions
"Can I see your papers?"
“Let me see your papers! Without papers you will be banned outright!”
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
"No ticket"
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Argh. Picture fail.
Was Indiana Jones on the blimp.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree with you
The only way we could have saved our selves would have been to play the last two weeks of that season as if the playoffs weren’t starting, This doesn’t include getting our rotation set up to the way we wanted it.
Also, not beating the snot out of NYM and then losing to the Crew would have helped a lot as well.
Albert Pujols for Cubs Starting 1B in 2012
This is what I mean
you guys want to play the “what if” game and that does not apply in this case. What if only works when you are right on the brink of winning, but not when you are completely dominated. None of these things you mention would have made enough of a difference to change the outcome.
i.e., “what if” to your heart’s content over 2003. But, when it comes to 2008, there is nothing to do but accept your fate.
That, to me, was the key
Also, not beating the snot out of NYM and then losing to the Crew would have helped a lot as well.
Although, they didn’t beat the “snot” out of the Mets. But to not go all out on game 162, to force a one-game playoff, was absurd. 1 inning per pitcher, indeed.
The Mets were in total disarray at the end of last year, and that should have been the opponent the Cubs were trying to get.
In no way would I advocate losing to the Mets on purpose earlier in the week, but try to beat the Brewers, too.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions
This is my hindsight assessment, too.
Lou should’ve played that Brewers series like a playoff series.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
Nope
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Not really.
There were TWO days off before the first playoff game, plenty of time for everyone to rest.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Again you predict the past like a shaman!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions
I thought it going in
Of course, being a non-Brewer fan from SE WI may have had something to do with it. But I knew the Mets were a mess.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions
and i didn't mean beat the snot out of them
but we put the proverbial nail in the coffin
Albert Pujols for Cubs Starting 1B in 2012
The Brewers series was worse to me
Because it’s not acceptable to lay down for the other team (Mets).
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions
The truth is somewhere in the middle
Even if STL loses today and the Cubs win the next 2, the Cubs would have to sweep to be within 4 games with 14 to play…this weekend is not the most important series of the year to the Cardinals.
However, I doubt they are in victory lap mode. Sometimes good teams lose games. It happens.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions
of course they do
All im saying is you play a full 162 game season, if you want to CROWN "EM! THEN CROWN ‘EM! but i’ll wait and see how the next 18 days play out.
Now i truly believe there is no way we catch the Cards, but the WC is becoming more palpable.
Albert Pujols for Cubs Starting 1B in 2012
Sure looks like it to me
Monday, La Russa starts Wellemeyer, who was terrible earlier this year and got pulled from the rotation. He manipulates his rotation so that Pinero faces Josh Johnson, who will get some Cy Young consideration and who LaRussa knows they probably won’t beat in any event.
“Victory Lap Mode” might be a little strong, but Tony is definitely managing as if his team has an insurmountable lead, which in truth, barring an unprecedented collapse, they do.
Not what I meant.
As noted above, the Cardinals went 29-10 after they acquired Holliday. They’re not looking quite that unbeatable now.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Ok, fair enough
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Nobody
thought they were going to stay on that pace.
But, the point is, they don’t need to. Everyone, especially Tony LaRussa, understands this.
It would’ve been better for the Cubs if the Cardinals had put up a little better effort against the Braves and Marlins. But, the fact that they didn’t doesn’t mean the Cubs are in a better position to beat the Cardinals.
5-5
is just fine when you have a double digit lead. In case you haven’t noticed, LaRussa is already managing like he has the division won…resting his bullpen, giving players days off, etc.
Hmmm.
Seems like the Cubs had a manager who did that late in the season with a playoff-bound team.
How’d that work out?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
They won the division
Doesn’t help the Cubs much if the Cardinals get swept in the NLDS
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Give the fact
that Tony is cruising to his 12th Division Title, has 5 pennants, and 2 WS Championships, I think it is safe to assume that he knows what he is doing.
As most managers would, up by 11 1/2 games...
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
Seems foolish with a double digit magic number
also speaks to their depth, no?
Albert Pujols for Cubs Starting 1B in 2012
Magic Numbers
tend to shrink fast. You can lose and still reduce the magic number. That is why it is so hard to jump over four teams. You might gain on one or two teams, but not on all four. It’s great that the Cubs pick up a game on the Rockies when the Giants beat them. But, the Giants are ahead of the Cubs too.
Right, but...
… at least the Cubs can beat the Giants head-to head.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
True
but, that doesn’t change the fact that when the Giants are playing the Rockies, as they have done a lot lately, the Cubs cannot gain on both of them at the same time. That is why I never understood why people on here thought that it was a good thing for the Cubs that the Rockies and Giants played a lot of games against each other when the Cubs were trailing both.
Because someone has to lose
Yes, someone has to win, as well, but if the Cubs win, they are guaranteed to gain on someone.
With the Giants in 2nd, it’s better for the Cubs if SF beats COL.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't agree
After today, since about the 20th of August, which is about when the Cubs started to turn their attention to the WC race, the Rockies and Giants will have played 11 times. If the Giants win today, the Rockies will be 3-8 against the Giants, but 15-5 in other games. The Giants will be 8-3 against the Rockies, and 6-8 in other games. I can’t imagine a more challenging scenario for the Cubs (or any team trailing in the Wild Card race) to make up ground on these two teams.
How can you not agree?!
Its pure baseball logic that you want the team in second to win despite how challenging the comeback may be.
We get it dude, you don’t think it will happen.
Albert Pujols for Cubs Starting 1B in 2012
that would be great
if the team leading would also lose the non head to head games. But then, at some point, the team in second becomes the team leading. I am simply pointing out that those that think it is great that the Giants are beating up on the Rockies are losing sight of the overall picture. The Cubs have four teams in front of them for the Wild Card, and they have had for about month, and they haven’t passed ANY of them yet.
i would much rather the team beating up the other....
BE SAN FRANSICO!!!! THE TEAM WE HAVE FOUR GAMES AGAINST!!!
We control our own destiny this way.
Albert Pujols for Cubs Starting 1B in 2012
Just keep winning!
That’s all you can do is keep on winning. But it’s nice to see the Rockies drop a few games. KEEP HOPE ALIVE!!
Get 'em on, Get 'em over, Get 'em in!
Agreed DKT!
Stranger things have happened. They just have to keep winning. GO CUBS GO!!
by Tangled Up In Blue on Sep 16, 2009 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes,
Wouldn’t it be sweet if the Cubs made some sort of miraculous comeback late in the season and grab the Wild Card?
All these other teams have written their own history, why can’t the Cubs do the same thing?
If you think you've seen it all...just wait!
by CubFanSince1970 on Sep 16, 2009 8:15 AM CDT reply actions
He's having an incredible year...
An outside chance at 40 HRs, over 100 RBIs, hitting over .300… and he didn’t start hitting until, what, June?
Since May 16...
… Lee has played 102 games. In those games he has hit .336/.421/.649 with 30 HR and 86 RBI.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
And before that
a large contingent around here wanted to replace him with Micah Hoffpauir.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 16, 2009 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Large contingent = about 5 people
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe.
But that contingent SHOULD have been zero.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yeah...
When he was OPS-ing in the 500’s and Hoff was smashing the ball in the 900’s.
It was logical to want that.
To fill in, pinch hit and be in the wings to back up a front line player lost for
an extended time. Just like Hoffpauir did when Ramirez went down. oh, wait…
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
wait - now I'm confused...
were you echoing DGU’s sigh or supporting kanderber’s logic?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
FWIW, I got it
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Replace "large" with "loud" and you've got it.
You won’t see most of those folks around here now.
Giving up on a player too early is foolish. Giving up on a player of Lee’s quality too early is suicide.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions
What p/o'd me the most during the trade Lee
so Hoffpauir can get the playing time, was that the loud outcry occurred after DLee had turned it around. He was in week 2 or three of tearing the cover off the ball and Hoffpauir had started to wobble.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Lee's production isn't worth $13M next year.
The team needs to trade him so Micah can play.
s
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Great
Season for DLee indeed, would never have seen this coming, given the way he started this season, and how he played in 2007 and 2008. Not only has he been the only steady offensive force for this team (at least after May) but he has saved this team a shit-load of runs with his glove!
My question would be what to do with him beyond next season? Would anyone want to extend him beyond 2010? If so, for how long, and for how much? As great as he has been this season, I would like to see him play this way once again next year before committing beyond 2010. If we have learned anything from the Dempster signing, we should not be to quick to overpay for career seasons.
Also, just out of curiosity, when does Prince Fielder become a Free Agent? Would the Cubs ever consider bringing him here to replace Lee, he could be the left-handed bat the Cubs have longed for?
Too many variables to decide on Lee right now.
Commitments to other contracts may require the Cubs let him go for financial reasons for 2011.
Is Vitters progressing/ready? Is Ramirez and option at 1st? Is there another option? Is Derrick healthy? Sill producing? Want to play?
As for Prince – do not want.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
I agree...
With moving Rami to first, if and when Vitters comes to the majors, I have been a proponent of that one for a long time.
I also agree with a wait and see approach with Lee, I do get the sense however that he will be gone after next season regardless, due mostly to constraints brought on by bad contracts, and his age.
As for Prince, I personally would be open to bringing him here. I think he would put up some monster numbers in Wrigley. However, I do worry about his conditioning, and wonder how much longer he can continue to play at first base every day. Do the Cubs really need another out of shape player (see: Zambrano, Soto)? If I were the Cubs I would at least consider bringing him here, he is an offensive force you can build a line-up around, and has been a consistent run producer his whole career. In the end, I still think Fielder is better suited to play in the AL, where he can DH occasionally, likely will end up in Boston.
The problem with moving Ramirez
to first to make room for Vitters is that Vitters may soon have to move to first base as well.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 16, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions
If Theriot is still our SS...
this my be necessary.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Just...
How bad was Vitters’ defense in terms of range and errors this season? I was not able follow the minor leaguers as much as I would have liked to this season. Keep in mind, Ramirez took a long time to grow into a competent defensive third baseman as well.
Dont' laugh, but we gained a game on the Cardinals too.
This season isn’t over yet.
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
Hahahahaha
Oh. Don’t Laugh? Sorry.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
Yes, thanks!
It was a blast.
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Sep 16, 2009 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, let's hear some on-the-scene reportage!
Shoes or sandals?
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
It was sandals.
Tonight it’s going to be shoes. We are going with a group my husband works with and I don’t want him to be embarrassed of me. I will wear the same Cubs t-shirt even though I bought a new one that I can’t wait to wear. It also seems to be lucky-it’s going 2-0 for games I’ve attended with it. I did wash it.
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Sep 16, 2009 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions
I think it will be OK.
I’ve washed it in between those other two games too.
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Sep 16, 2009 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions
I also found two lucky pennies before the game yesterday.
I’m thinking one was for last night and the other was for tonight. Not that I’m superstitious or anything.
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Sep 16, 2009 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions
I think you might have to stick with the sandals after last night's win.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I was going to walk from DeVry, but maybe you are right.
Whose going to look at my feet anyway?
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Sep 16, 2009 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions
win one of the next two
and we don’t have to watch STL celebrate this weekend.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
We won't have to watch that. Book it.
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
We still have to watch Saturday's game with Buck and McCarver
and Sunday’s with Morgan, Phillips and Miller. That’s pretty torturous in and of itself.
Just mute your TV.
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Sep 16, 2009 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions
Still a chance
but the Cubs would really have to sweep the Cards in STL to have any chance.
I heart the riot. (www.riotshirts.com)
by RIOTSHIRTS.com on Sep 16, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Isn't Sullivan
The guy who suggested Z will waive his no trade and be shopped in the off season?
Anyone else catch Zambrano leave the post game after being questioned about that.
Seems like he has something against Z right now (I never read articles in Tribune so this might be a long running thing)
It was Rogers, but him and Sullivan are joined at the butt
The Tribune has shifted their editorial line considerably since May. There are serious economic interests driving their reporting and writing method. Hence, I have cancelled my subscription and I try not to link to their stories online.
I caught Z being snippy. I would’ve been snippy too if those dicks asked me those questions. I usually don’t defend him, but I am today. I’m on his side.
Agreed.
I don’t think most reporters realize – or maybe they do and don’t care – how emotional the suggestion of a trade can be for a player. Especially a guy like Z who’s been with the Cubs his entire career. I actually like the way Carlos handled himself last night in the postgame.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
Agreed. It was
ridiculous of the reporter to ask Z that. I don’t blame him at all.
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
Hope is a good thing
maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies. —Shawshank
After this season DLee will have the two greatest single seasons by a 1B in Cub history. He has moved up to 5th in the NL in OPS and 4th in RBIs.
Phil Cavarretta's 1945 season...
… 97 RBI in 498 AB, a .949 OPS, and winning the batting title at .355 — that’s got to be up there, too. (Yes, I know Cavarretta played some games in the OF in 1945.)
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I can't believe
you’re all dissing Cap Anson’s 1881 season. Dude hit .399 with a .442 OBP, and this was when you needed eight balls to draw a walk. Anson led the league in RBI, which was shocking even to him, since the stat hadn’t been invented yet. And every pitcher in the league was a submariner! :-)
by Josh Timmers on Sep 16, 2009 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions
The patience
on offense reminded me of the 08 team. Great to see Soto answer Z’s disasterous 5th with the bomb. Something has to give with Zambrano- to surrender a 4-0 lead against Gallardo isn’t acceptable. It would be nice to see Fox or Hoff get a start in one of the corners today. I would look for Blanco at short today also- Theriot dinged up his finger on his first, and ultimately, only error- i don’t see how McGhee’s grounder was ruled a hit. BB saw it as a hit too, but it just seemed a play a SS should make. Amazing that the Cubs score 13 with Dome and Bradley looking helpless at the plate. I’m pleased with the Cub’s effort- they haven’t given up, and look to be far more invested than Milwaukee did last night.
Finally- does any one else get tired of the way Fielder holds the ball at first, and continually holds it on top of baserunner’s heads after pick off attempts? I don’t like him… at all.
"Chicago Cubs fans are ninety percent scar tissue." - George F. Will
They weren't helpless!
Each got hit by a pitch! That takes skill.
by mykalmorgan on Sep 16, 2009 8:47 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Yep, they are starting to remind me of last year.
I don’t know about anyone else, but now when they are down a run, I’m not getting that hopeless feeling like the game is over that I was getting most of this season. I’m now starting to expect them to come back and win. It’s a good feeling.
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Sep 16, 2009 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm just glad this didn't end up like the Yankees-Blue Jays game last night.
That was an ugly situation.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2009 8:28 AM CDT reply actions
You know I usually not one for a bean ball war...
…but last night could have used a retaliation pitch.
BTW, your link goes to a different video.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
Here, try this
That should be it.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2009 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Some random thoughts...
1. Why does “the Shark” considered on the “fast track” to the Big Leagues, when he continually blows most chances he gets to impress the team brass and Cub fans?
I don’t think he has the talent to succeed at this level, or the desire to “learn the game” by developing a couple more pitches.
2. Why isn’t Jake Fox playing 80% of the time right now in LF? the stupidity and stubborness on Lou’s part needs to end. He is perfect for the 5th hole and we need his bat.
3. I believe we are seeing what Fukudome really is. A decent fielding outfielder who is a .250 hitter with little power. You could run almost any decent AAA CF out there and get the same production for a lot less money. His swing technique (or lack of) is so infuriating to watch, that I almost always look away when he is at bat. BB was making fun of Ted Lilly’s batting style the other day on TV, and I have to say Fukudome’s batting style is almost as bad. The next two years are going to be really long!
4. Has Sean Marshall become the forgotten man in the bullpen now? Wouldn’t be surprised if they traded him in the off-season. I would rather keep him and use him more often.
If you think you've seen it all...just wait!
by CubFanSince1970 on Sep 16, 2009 8:31 AM CDT reply actions
Fukudome also walks.
A lot. Still an undervalued skill.
by mykalmorgan on Sep 16, 2009 8:49 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Agree about everything but Fukudome.
You need to stop looking at batting average and get over the fact that he looks bad when he Ks. (A lot of guys do.) A league-average replacement wouldn’t give you a .373 OBP or a .345 wOBA. And he remains one of the better defensive right fielders in the game. Admittedly, his UZR numbers in CF look awful for his career thus far and not great for the 2009 season, but he’s still a valuable player.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by daver on Sep 16, 2009 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions 8 recs
However
Dome has a tendency to take not weeks off, but months. His approach at the plate this month is horrible. Sure his OBP is .373, but his run production is weak, combined with Milton’s poor year and the lost year of Soriano the Cubs OF this year has been bad.
Dome and Milton are esstenially the same player, no power, good gloves, and get on base. Don’t look for them to drive in any runs or hit homeruns, and unfortunately the Cubs need them to do that. Cubs all ready have Fontenot, Miles, Theriot, Blanco, Fuld, to get on base and not hit for power.
I'm confused
Isn’t getting on base at a high-rate a big part of “run production”?
by mykalmorgan on Sep 16, 2009 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions
And he has had ONE horrendous month this year.
His per-month splits in every other completed month are actually kind of fantastic. There is still time for him to salvage September.
by mykalmorgan on Sep 16, 2009 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions
Let’s take a look at the OBP for the guys you mentioned.
Fontenot .303
Miles .217
Theriot .341
Blanco .316
Fuld .379
Fuld tops Fukudome at the moment, and Theriot was up there until his recent slump, but the other guys…?
My point is
“run production” knocking in runs, RBI’s, Dome and Bradley do not have 100 combined. Dome and Bradley have become middle infielders.
But if you want a OBP of .370, 10 HR’s, score 70 runs and knock in 50 from your two outfield postions, well, good luck. IMO I want some better production than that from 2 of my outfielders.
Do you think Hendry or for that matter Cub fans expected the numbers from Bradley and Dome that they are putting up for the wonderful 10M+ a year they are getting. God help us if Hendry did or us fans did.
Well, no one besides DLee and Aramis (in many fewer ABs)...
…have been very good at driving in runs this year. It’s the story of our season. And Kosuke and Milton are what they are at this point – top of the order guys. There are other positions that could be driving in those runs – catcher, left field, even second base – but there have been problems there, too. Anyway, my main point is simply to argue against the notion that Fukudome is worthless.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
Dome is not worthless at all
disappointing is my take. Him and Bradley are average baseball players.
Dude
What planet do you live on.
Average?
You are kidding, right?
Hyperbole at least?
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
Neither have been that far from an MLB average starter.
Kosuke’s offense has been slightly above average this year. If he could keep from deep cold spells he might be really good, but he’s had them for a couple years straight, so it might be how he’ll play in MLB for his whole career. UZR says he’s a below-average CF and I think that’s probably right. He doesn’t have blazing speed and plays really deep, but has a good arm and doesn’t make too many mistakes. But, as CF is a tough defensive position, slightly above-average offense and somewhat below-average defense make a slightly above-average player. Then you consider that he has to sit against most lefties, and the reduction in playing time hurts his value. He’ll probably end the season right around average.
Bradley’s case for being an above-average starter based on this year’s production is worse than Kosuke’s. His offense has been fairly similar. He’s probably not as valuable on defense; UZR gives him around average marks this year but at an easier position. His history suggests he might be better than this year’s number, but he also could be slowed by injuries and age. He misses more time for injury and rest than most players. So he’s probably a somewhat below-average starter this year, who can be better in the future if he (a) proves he’s still a plus defender in right and (b) has a good year with the bat.
Fukudome vs. LHPs
I really would like to have seen Lou give Fukudome a chance to work out of this year’s funk vs. LHPs. For whatever reason, it wasn’t a problem last year, when he hit .251 vs. RHPs and .276 vs. LHPs (with a slightly better BB to K ratio).
point taken
Yeah, I think the problem is that Bradley was brought in with the expectation that he’d be a big bat. I used to think that this was an unreasonable expectation, but now that I look at his stats again, maybe it wasn’t.
Sure, his 77 RBI wasn’t phenomenal but given his 509 PA it’s not bad. For comparison, in 2008 Soriano had 75 RBI in 503 PA while Soto (usually hitting in the bottom of the lineup) had 86 RBI in 563 PA. Moreover, Bradley slugged .563 in 2008 and .545 in 2007. Soriano and A-Ram led the Cubs in slugging last year with .532 and .518, respectively. This year Bradley is an anemic .398!!!
Of course, 2008’s stats don’t mean anything this year—clearly Bradley has performed under expectations. This wouldn’t have been such a problem if nearly every other player on the team—Soriano, Soto and, yes, guys like Miles and Fontenot—were doing the same thing.
I think Fukudome can still salvage his Sept./Oct and end up with an .820 OPS and maybe 65 RBI. But your point stands—if your team is going to have two high-OBP low-RBI guys in the outfield, you’re gonna need a slugger in left field and a Hanley Ramirez, Chase Utley, or Troy Tulowitzki in the middle infield.
You gotta take in to account a player's home park.
Bradley spent last year in Texas, and no doubt benefited from that statistically.
If nobody in the front office was able to figure that out and instead based their expectations on what he was doing in a very offense friendly park, shame on them.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions
That's a good point
And I totally agree. But it is interesting to note that Bradley managed a .947 OPS (153 OPS+) in a (admittedly short) season split between Oakland and San Diego, two of the most difficult-to-hit parks in the MLB. I think he has the potential to be excellent, but his annual performances have fluctuated quite a bit year to year.
Some of that may be a question of comfort as well.
Its clear Bradley was uncomfortable in Chicago at first. He seems to be a sensitive dude, acutely aware of his environment. He also seemingly got more comfortable with the Cubs and starting playing as such as the season progressed.
Maybe an offseason in one place, around one set of guys he seems to enjoy now, could bring him around to his prior performances.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Or to take into account the pressure cooker that is Chicago sports
Albert Pujols for Cubs Starting 1B in 2012
I kinda liked Soto in the 5th hole last night. Although I would like to see Fox in there somewhere.
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Sep 16, 2009 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Agree about Marshall. He's not in the doghouse too, is he?
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Sep 16, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions
The Sean Marshall thing...
…is becoming a mystery of Hardy Boys-esque proportions (unless I missed a news story). He hasn’t pitched since September 6th. Seven days and counting! What gives? Is it only because of the expanded rosters?
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
I think it's two things.
First, like you said, expanded rosters. Marshall is a known quantity, and Lou wants to give guys like Caridad and Shark a look. Second, now that Grabow is around Marshall is no longer the shut-down lefty out of the pen.
Why did he wait until know to give guys a look? Fox was an unknown quantity when Armais was hurt.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Interesting that Soriano gets shut down
And Cubs are 8 of last 10.
You can’t go back and change time and we probably should have at least 5 more wins if it weren’t for bullpen meltdowns but it feels like a different team playing ever since they left CitiField.
On Theriot
Ryan Theriot fumbled what should have been an inning-ending ground ball by Casey McGehee (after Z had intentionally walked Prince Fielder to load the bases), and Mike Cameron drove in the final pair of runs after that. Theriot’s blunder was originally ruled an error, but later changed to a hit by the official scorer. It should have remained an error; a major league shortstop should make that play.
No. He certainly should have handled it cleanly, but he had nowhere to throw to get anyone in time. The Cubs’ radio announcers and Brewers’ television announcers all said the same thing.
Theriot isn’t a major league shortstop, but that play wasn’t an error.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 8:37 AM CDT reply actions
Agree and disagree.
I agree that the Theriot could NOT have gotten an out on that play – even if he had fielded the ball cleanly. He was deep in the hole and his momentum was carrying him toward the third base line.
IIRC, there were runners on second and third: He couldn’t have gathered himself quickly enough to get the guy going to third, and there’s no way his throw makes it to second base in time (much less first). Al, I urge you to go back and watch it again. The original error call was not warranted.
Disagree that Ryan Theriot isn’t a major league shortstop – and I will continue to rally against what I feel is an unjust oversimplification of the situation. His career and seasonal UZR numbers show him as above league average at the position, and he’s about to finish his third full season at the position (3,318.2 total innings).
Am I open to an upgrade? Absolutely. Would Theriot do just as well, if not better, at second base? Probably. But the Cubs have won two division championships and now sit seven games above .500 with Ryan Theriot as their starting shortstop. Let’s give the guy some credit – he has earned the right to be called a major league shortstop.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by daver on Sep 16, 2009 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Runners were on 1st and 2nd
But Ramirez wasn’t on the bag.
Shawon Dunston might have had a play, but it would have taken that kind of arm. Most shortstops don’t have it.
I don’t honestly know enough about defensive statistics. But while I do think they are valuable, I also don’t think they detail everything (positioning, instincts, etc.). Theriot, like his LSU buddy, doesn’t know how to make tag plays, he has poor footwork and a really bad arm.
Maybe I’m unfairly harsh on him (although I am defending him on last night’s play – it wasn’t his fault), but I just don’t think he’s that good. He’s adequate on a team like the 2008 Cubs.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
That's a fair enough assessment of Theriot.
I just think it’s way overstating the case against him to say he’s not a major league shortstop. He is – better than some, worse than others.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
I suppose you're right
He is, in fact, playing short for an MLB team.
I guess I should say that I don’t think he’s a very good major league shortstop.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm rec'ing both dcd's post above and SB's post here.
It’s true that Theriot’s stats say he can do the job. It’s also true that when I watch him, and other fans watch him, he just looks bad at the job. I’d love to be able to read the pro scouting reports on him. Either way, I think his trade value is at its peak (well, it was earlier in the season at least) and he should be shopped in the off-season. The problem is that we’d need to shop for a SS in trade, too. That’s tough to do.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
The eye test says he jsut doesn't have very good range
It was very noticeable (by comparison) when the Cubs played Atlanta and we got a good look at Escobar
rec'd the reply
theriot has terrible footwork. look at how many grounders he has recently been unable to make the play to first (forget the play last night where he went to his left—I agree that was not an error). however, on grounders of modest speed theriot has no instinct to come in on a ball, he only seems comfortable going parallel to 2B/3B. just no ability to adapt. and with his average arm (I am being kind), he can’t compensate for the bad footwork.
I do think we can do better defensively and should in 2010.
"Truth hurts. Maybe not as much as jumping on a bicycle with the seat missing, but it hurts." - Leslie Nielson
Andres Blanco
He did say “defensively”
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd play Blanco/Scales/Baker
and send Miles packing and trade Theriot. If we can upgrade/trade LBR on the right side, I would do that too. I would take defense at 2B/SS as a priority over offense. My guess is we will get a lot more offense out of the OF next year.
No way it can be as bad as it was this year.
"Truth hurts. Maybe not as much as jumping on a bicycle with the seat missing, but it hurts." - Leslie Nielson
Defensive statistics are about results.
The ball is hit into a certain zone, and the player is credited if he makes an out and debited if he does not; exactly how much depends on which zone and how hard the ball was hit, based on average results for balls hit into that zone. Zones are relative to the field, not the player. So whether a player made the play because of range, jump, positioning, arm, etc, it doesn’t matter. All that matters is that he got the out. If a player has good positioning or instincts it should show up in the results. There are supposed to be park adjustments, to make up for, say, Wrigley’s long-cut grass, but I’m not sure exactly how that works.
The difficulty of UZR is that not all balls hit in a particular zone are equally tough to field. Similarly, a hitter could face really great pitching for a while and you’d expect his numbers to be poor. This tends to even out over a large number of chances, and people tend to think a couple seasons worth of shortstop data is pretty reliable (for positions that get fewer chances it’s less reliable, just like a season of hitting results for a bench player means is less meaningful than those for a starter). It’s also possible that there are other biases - a human judges which zone a hit belongs in and how hard it’s hit. It’s been documented that some parks tend to have more balls scored as line drives than others. And some players have seen their defensive numbers change dramatically when they move to new ballparks, or consistently are graded differently by fairly similar systems that use different data sources (UZR vs. Dewan’s +/). So it’s completely possible that some players that play in the same place for a while have completely biased defensive stats.
But as for your statement that they “don’t detail everything”… well, they definitely take into account the things you mentioned. They do miss a lot of things that affect how many bases are taken on hits (some of these are captured for outfielders), they don’t consider foul balls, and they don’t look at anything but ground balls for infielders and fly balls for outfielders. I don’t think we can completely determine defensive worth by them, certainly, but they’re a nice tool to have around.
The Brewers radio guys
thought it was an error.
I listened to the Reds broadcast over the weekend and they made the statement that the official scoring at Wrigley is generally thought to be the worst in baseball and has been for years.
I have always felt...
… that the official scorer should be a MLB employee, a fifth member of the umpiring crew. Why that job has gone to retired sportswriters is beyond me.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It's not that hard to figure out Al...
baseball and baseball writers have been in an incestuous relationship for a long, long time.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 16, 2009 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Coming soon to a ballpark near you...
Tonight’s official scorer is Jay Mariotti
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Of course they did.
Len and Bob thought it should not have been called an error and said as much when it was corrected.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
Perhaps, but they'd be just as happy to see a Cubs player credited with an error.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
i don't think it is a Soriano issue
I mean the top two guys in the lineup (Theriot and Fukudome) are in horrendous slumps, I think Dome is hitting maybe .100 over his last 50 at bats, and the offense is still figuring out ways to get it done mostly on the backs of Lee and Ramirez. I’d like to see Pinella shove Dome down to 8th in the order or on the bench, he’s pretty useless and Fuld would add more value.
The fact is we continue to get good starting pitching (5th inning last night notwithstanding) and a couple guys in the lineup are hot and we are playing bad teams. Not rocket science.
Sigh...again...
…a guy who sees a lot of pitches, draws walks and has stayed healthy all year and played decent defense in the outfield is not useless. And Fuld can’t add more value now – he’s injured.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
did he hurt his wrist on that catch?
Looked like he was favoring it on the way back to the dugout on the highlight.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
For the last month or so, he's done none of those things, right?
.137/.286./176 in Sept. – .207 / .314 / .287 over the last month. Obviously, Fukudome is going nowhere, but maybe a couple of days off could re-charge him again?
While Fuku’s second half has been way better than his 2008 second half, he’s definitely in a free-fall at the moment, and 2 more weeks of this is going to leave him with a 2009 line that will be almost identical to his 2008 line.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Let's see how the month (and season) plays out.
After all of our talk of putting Dome and Milton at the top of the order, both have been struggling to get on base lately – though Kosuke’s been doing a little better than Bradley, I believe. If nothing else, Dome’s been a little more consistent this year. I just don’t think it’s fair to call him “useless.”
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
Besides ADAM LIND!!!!!!!!!!!
Who else would be your choice to replace him?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Why can't I have ADAM LIND!!!!! ?
Get it done Jim!
I honestly don’t know, I have no idea who is available, since I’m not a major league GM. I just know that Dome is clearly a below average offensive player.
Price, price, price.
I’m so confused by why so many here lament this stuff. How does it affect you what Dome gets paid? Its not like they’d ditch his salary and give it back to fans.
As a major market team, the cubs will always and forever pay more for players than other smaller market teams will invest for similar production. This is a fact of the franchise you root for. It isn’t coincidence 4 of the top six 2009 team payrolls come from the cities of New York, LA and Chicago.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions
The Cubs are CLEARLY working under a payroll cap
It’s the reason we had to dump Derosa to bring in Milton. No, it doesn’t affect my wallet, but it does affect the team that is put on the field. His production does not equal his monetary price tag, and that hurts the club.
Just for the record
DeRo wasn’t dumped because of Bradley. The moves were independent of one another.
The line was Fonty needed to get more at bats. But I believe DeRo was moved as part as a 12 step process trying to get PV.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
If that's the case they should have made 100% sure they could do that before taking step one.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I agree and the moves kind of bit Hendry in the ass.(re DeRo)
I think the whole PV thing distracted Hendry and let him down the wrong path this off season since we didn’t acquire him anyway.
When Towers was trying to get the Phils involved with the three way that included DeRo, Hendry thought he could get more value by dealing the parts himself and then taking those parts back to Towers for a trade. And it all backfired when he still couldn’t get a deal done with PV.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
Agreed - DeRosa and Pie seem to be moved in order to get Peavy.
It’s inexplicable that Hendry would prefer to do the deal in stages, as opposed to a 3 or 4 team deal, however.
Especially considering that the Cubs gave up two productive players and got back a bunch things they didn’t really need – minor league relievers and Aaron Heilman.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Also
Money needed to be freed up to cover Dempster’s new contract, which was not totally deserved based on one good season as a starter.
We were going to save dollars
on both letting Woody and Marquis go. That money could’ve been enough to to keep DeRo and still sign Bradley.
I don’t think DeRo was a salary dump.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
I mean, i'm sure every team has some sort of cap, even the Yankees.
But that is missing my point entirely. A player in the FA market know that if the cubs are pursuing him, or players at his position, he’s likely to get paid a premium.
If a guy is work a dollar on the open market, its common sense that the Cubs (or Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, Mets…) will have to pay a buck twenty to sign him.
They “Player X isn’t worth his pricetag” argument is failed when it comes to the team you cheer for when its a difference as small as what you see for guys doing similar production at similar positions across the league. There are exceptions, obvs (Soriano has NOT been worth his pricetag this season, no doubt), but you aren’t cheering for the Royals here. Value in players coming out of free agency isn’t every going to be something the Cubs have a lot of luck in getting.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Few players are.
Every contract is a gamble. Players get paid what the market will bear at the time they’re signed. Yadda yadda.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
the only point of agreement i'll make with you
is that the alternatives to replace him are not blinking in large lights.
by BeltwayCubsFan on Sep 16, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Top-flight young OF don't come available very often.
And when they do, they’re expensive.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Unless you have the scouting and development in place within the organization
to find real prospects and groom them into MLB ready talent. Hey-O
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Yeah, but that's impossible. No one can do that. Right?
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
On Zambrano
I didn’t see him react to Scales not throwing home, but his body language wasn’t good during most of the rally. I thought at the time that he was more upset with himself than his teammates, but he was trying to throw 110 MPH – Santo made a comment about how he suddenly went to all fastballs, and Bill Schroeder made a similar observation.
Innings like that are tough to watch – two outs, no one on, the pitcher up and five runs score. I still think Zambrano was upset with himself – but he’s got to learn to harness that instead of letting it control him.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 8:41 AM CDT reply actions
Zambrano is a very emotional dude. The discussion on trading him
probably had him at the boiling point before he took the mound.
I assume he thinks it’s okay for him to insinuate he’d like to be traded, but a different animal if the press or front office is discussing it.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Yet he was very good for 4 innings - that doesn't add up.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 8:43 AM CDT up reply actions
It makes as much sense as anything with Z.
He may have stayed up blogging all night in anger, someone may have said something in the dugout, who knows?
Z just doesn’t seem to have much margin for error with his emotions. A little fire brings out his best stuff, but the ump missing a call (while pitching or him batting) or a poor fielding play behind him can knock the wheels right off.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
And that's why I tend to be in the "make a good deal for him" camp
I wouldn’t trade him just to trade him, but I woudn’t be devastated if he was moved.
If he ever learned to focus the emotion, he’d be one of the best pitchers in the league.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 8:48 AM CDT up reply actions
I'd need to see something strong and not a meager return to be pleased.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Agreed
I still like my Reyes and Maine thought, but that’s not without risks.
Thing is, no one is going to trade a sure thing for Zambrano right now.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions
Reyes and Maine are far from being "sure thing[s]" after their injuries.
I don’t think I like this trade idea a whole lot.
Again, no one is going to give the Cubs a sure thing
Not with the questions regarding Zambrano’s health and focus.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions
Hey-O!
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions
There are rumors
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions
I have been getting there for a while
And he’s starting to lose a lot of public opinion.
If he thinks he has it bad now, he should see how people would respond to some of his antics in NYC or Philadelphia.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't think he knew of the trade rumor until after the game
Just from his reaction and post game comments…but I could be wrong.
Oh, I think he knew beforehand
It was in the paper yesterday and online Monday night.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions
Then he probably did
I thought it came out a few hours prior to the game.
Mostly because there wasn’t a link or 5 on here talking about it.
Yeah, I was surprised at that, too.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Mental toughness anyone?
If what little Paulie Sullivan said about seeing what Z can bring in return in a trade makes you (Zambrano) so upset that it affects your performance on the field??? I’m sorry, that’s weaksauce. It’s not like Z is receiving death threats (i.e. Hank Aaron) it’s some words printed in a newspaper discussing what your value would be out in the trade market. That’s sports writing, DEAL with it.
I’m curious as to what he can bring in as well…but, I’m hesistant because I’ve seen what recent trades have brought us…Aaronmileits. But why the hell not see what other teams may want to throw our way in exchange for Z? If nothing seems that great, then forget it. We’ll continue to deal with Dr. Cramp/Mr. Strikeout and go from there.
"What the hell, let's review it." - Dale Tallon
"They are!" - Pat Foley
"What a farce." - Dale Tallon
I think it's pretty safe to blame dat cubfan daver for all of Z's problems last night
As Al wrote, Z was dominant for the first four innings.
However, after the 4th, Z ducked into the clubhouse, read daver’s MLBTR Cubs leadoff discussion includes INTRIGUING TRADE PROPOSAL fanshot and worked himself up into a frenzy.
Canada catches a break, because for today, I blame daver.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Well...well...then I blame the Yankees fan who brought it up in the first place!
Seriously, Z, it wasn’t me…there was a fire, an earthquake, my suit didn’t come back from the cleaners…BLou made me do it…an old friend came in from out of town…IT WASN’T MY FAULT!!!
:::SLAP!:::
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
It's 106 miles to Chicago,
we’ve got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it’s dark, and we’re wearing sunglasses
Hit it.
Some people say the glass is half empty, some say half full. I say, are you going to drink that?
by BleedsbluinMI on Sep 16, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't forget...
Miles had a 4-3 groundout. That guy may be worse than Enrique Wilson.
"May" be?
I don’t think there’s any question.
by mykalmorgan on Sep 16, 2009 8:52 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
DING DING DING!
I’ve been looking for the one Aaron Miles fan. You, sir, are a saint. Mr. Miles will be getting in touch with you soon. He needs a friend really bad.
I think Miles is over used
he needs a rest… and what was up with shaving? He looked 13 years old?
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
I wouldn't go so far as to call myself a fan, but...
I’m past the pulling-my-hair-out, purple-faced, neck-veins-bulging, “Aaron F-in Miles” stage and ready to fully embrace the Aaron Miles Experience for what it is… a truly wretched ballplayer doing exactly what truly wretched ballplayers do.
If I couldn’t laugh at Ol’ No. 7 being trotted out as a PH… again… and predictably dribbling one to second… again… I’d have to cry.
by hokie316 on Sep 16, 2009 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks to all the 4-3 groundout talk on here about Miles,
I turned to the party I was with and said 4-3 before he did it. They were very impressed. It was pretty funny.
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Sep 16, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions
With that power, say "gapper to RF, triple" next time.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
LOL
Wouldn’t that be something!
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Sep 16, 2009 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions
On Samardzija :)
Tuesday night’s game was that kind of game. The Cubs beat the Brewers 13-7, scoring almost as many runs as the Bears had points (15) on Sunday, and it would have been closer had not a former football player, Jeff Samardzija, given up two consolation runs to Milwaukee in the ninth inning.
How would the game had been closer had he not given up runs?
In all seriousness, he still hasn’t shown anything to justify either the money or the fast track that he has been given.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 8:43 AM CDT reply actions
No, but they called him up and that's the kind of game to put him in.
I think we’re all weary of the Shark experiment and either want it to succeed or be shut down.
I hope they’re giving him this one last taste and a harsh pep talk before the offseason.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Oh, I have no problem with him being used last night
I just think he’s highly overrated.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Agreed. So far he hasn't shown
anything of great interest in AAA. The argument for Hoffpauir and Fox is they’ve proved themselves in the minors. The argument for Shark is he has a guaranteed contract and I’m not buying it.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
And a ridiculous contract it was
Even at the time.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions
You're right.
I meant to write “it got closer when”. I’ll fix it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Sun-Times reported the Z trade rumors too
It’s not just Sullivan.
I also don’t think writers pull their stories out of nothing. I wouldn’t be surprised if Sullivan had a source or two in the locker room that told him, off-the-record, that they didn’t appreciate Zambrano showing up Scales.
Sullivan didn’t want to burn the players who told him, so he made it off as his observations.
I’m putting it at 50-50 that Zambrano is a Cub next year.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Well of course it's 50-50. He either will be or he won't.
That’s ALWAYS 50-50 ;)
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
wow..
I am putting it at 50-50 that there will be NO next year
or a tomorrow for that matter...
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
can we finally get over
the idea that Koyie HIll should be taking ABs from Soto….
by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 16, 2009 10:38 AM CDT reply actions
I think that at that time it was the right thing to do to have Hill in there.
Now that Soto is starting to be more his old self, I’m happy to see him back.
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Sep 16, 2009 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions
I am glad that Lou is playing Soto now that he is hot.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
Right.
The Cubs have perhaps the best backup C in the league. That’s a valuable asset.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Hill is signed to a 1 year, with only 2.06 years
of service time, is he under control for next year?
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
what?
unless you’re referencing Soto as the backup, i have no idea why Koyie Hill is being so glamorized… he has an OPS+ of 70
He ranks 59th in MLB C’s in RC/27
what the heck is everyone happy about with Koyie Hill?
backup C’s ahead of him include: Mike Rivera, Omir Santos, David Ross, Chris Snyder, Ronnie Paulino, Gregg Zaun, Landon Powell, Ryan Hanigan, Kelly Shoppach, John Buck, Brad Ausmus, Yorvit Torrealba/Chris Iannetta…
what am i missing?
by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 16, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions
His defensive value to the team.
He is 1st in MLB in throwing out runners. Pitchers like throwing to him, from all accounts. And the Cubs have a 39-23 record when he starts.
You can tell me those things don’t matter, but they do.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Sep 16, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
rec
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
Green'd.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions
okay... lets look at those numbers
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHC/2009-fielding.shtml#players_standard_fielding
Soto CS% = 29%
Hill CS% = 41% (for the record, catchers ahead of Hill in CS% = Gerald Laird (44%), Yadier Molina (42%), Ryan Hanigan (44%), Kenji Johjima (53%), David Ross (45%), etc
Range Factor
Soto = 8.46
Hill = 8.92
Range Factor/Game
Soto = 7.89
Hill = 7.99
Hill’s defense is maybe 3-5% better than Soto’s…
by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 16, 2009 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions
are you implying
Soto—the cathcer of a 97-win team can’t call a better game than Hill?
Logic fail
Theriot was the shortstop of a 97-win team. Does that make him better than Ernie Banks in 1958?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions
this is my point
what do you mean “logic fail”?
Clearly Soto is a better player. N Oakley specifically suggested he calls a better game. I asked if Soto, clearly a better player, could call games better than Hill?
You are twisting this into apples and oranges.
Perhaps I am confused
You seemed to use a team record to support an argument that an individual from that team was superior.
What did I miss?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions
game calling
This was about game calling—Al used the Cubs record with Hill in the posts above.
It was not an issue on a 97 win team, right?
How do you call a better game if it does not lead to more wins? Soto was excellent in ‘08 and is returning to form now. I don’t get all the love for Hill. He is a nice back-up.
Ah, I see
Fail on me for not reading the whole mini-thread.
Carry on.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 16, 2009 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions
I guess I don't follow the conclusion.
The 2008 team won 97 games, therefore Soto calls a better game than Hill?
The same team won a higher percentage of games with Hill the catcher, therefore, with Hill’s lesser bat in the lineup and the same slumping Bradley, Lee, Soriano etc. I’m not concluding Hill calls a better game, but that it’s a possibility.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
no, you are just trying to turn around my
question.
I think game calling is over-rated and neither of these two is better. The Cubs won in ’08 over a full season and have had some good success over 1/3 a season with 2 different players.
I don’t see the value of using this metric to support Hill or Soto.
I wasn't trying to turn it around, it wasn't clear to me it was a question
as much as usin the win loss of 2008 as a deciding fact.
I didn’t think I was being defensive so much as trying to clarify my intent as you were telling others I said things I didn’t.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Well, I did not spefically suggest Hill calls a better game, but was trying to point out
an area not discussed. Soto has proven to have the better bat and DCF’s stats indicate Hill is only marginally better defensively.
If pitchers enjoy throwing to him and he has a 63% winning percentage for games started, what factor wasn’t discussed? Calling the game is the one I thought of.
As for logic fail is the string that because Soto, the better bat and almost defensive equal, is better, he must call a better game?
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
small sample size
you cannot say 63% winning percentage = better game calling because all other factors are the same
You realize this 63% = 102 wins over a full season?
I think game calling is irrelevant as the pitcher shakes off his catchers frequently anyway. They both have proven to be successful (wins and losses).
Please re-read my comments.
I did not say Hill calls a better game than Soto.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
I know you didn't
I asked you a question to which you got defensive. You did not answer my question.
Were you implying this or were you speculating? Just trying to get your position. I understand now you were speculating.
There are some who actually believe that thought about game calling.
the Bad News Bears
won games with Loopis in RF and that doesn’t mean they would not have been better with another Kelly Leak.
Hill is a back-up and that’s it.
but they did lose to the Mexican team that had a rock in the middle of the infield
Maybe we could get one for Wrigley to help out Theriot?
Some people say the glass is half empty, some say half full. I say, are you going to drink that?
by BleedsbluinMI on Sep 16, 2009 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Isn't Shoppach the starter now?
And he’s had a pretty lousy offensive year, at least until very recently.
Did CLE already find another guy to start ahead of Shoppach? Poor guy, if that’s true…
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
He sure did.
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Sep 16, 2009 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions
The Claw is our master.
.jpg)
.
I also think of “the claw” as a wrestling move made famous by Baron von Raschke and a gardening implement from Garden Weasel
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Sep 16, 2009 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Not CRAW! ... CRAW!!!!!
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
Good Yogi quote
This was from a local writer covering the SF Giants:
“In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.”
I thought that was a good one to wrap your brain around with the morning cereal.
Here is the writer and his article: Mark Purdy – SJ Mercury News
I don’t actually like Mr. Purdy, since he has written two articles over the years about how the White Sox are a genuine working-man’s team and the Cubs and their fans are phony-baloney. I wrote him a nice e-mail response both times. Ahhh, those flawed college memories.
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
Sports Page Journalism
I took a journalism class in high school, and worked on my high school and college newspapers. So I am a long way from being a journalist. However, I did learn enough to know that sports page journalism (and feature page journalism) has always had a lot more latitude when it comes to reporting a story and being objective. I am sure that I pointed out to Mr. Purdy that I realized that he couldn’t be considered a real journalist.
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
The nerve of the man!
I mean, for a guy covering the Giants to call any fans phony-baloney is laughable. A team with fans that used to walk out of the stadium after Bonds’ last at-bat, including in one game I was at where Jason Schmidt was up 2-1 through 8 and going for the complete game. As Schmidt pitched into and out of a jam in the 9th half the remaining fans had their backs turned to the field. The Marlins got runners to 2nd and 3rd with no outs, Schmidt struck out the last 3 batters to win the game, and less than half the paying crowd saw him do it. Pathetic.
We're Gonna Pull This Thing Out
i just wanna go on record with that. We’re going to Win Out, take the WC or perhaps even the Division, and go all the way.
We are.
by cubsgocubs on Sep 16, 2009 11:30 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
"Crazy... I mean like, so many positive waves... maybe we can't lose"
"Bats, they are sick. I cannot hit curveball. Straightball I hit it very much. Curveball, bats are afraid. I ask Jobu to come, take fear from bats. I offer him cigar, rum. He will come. " Pedro Cerrano
by shifafaontheside on Sep 16, 2009 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions
awesome
that’s the attitude we should all have. :D
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 16, 2009 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions
I guess I'm not the only crazy one still looking at the Cardinals after all
perhaps even the Division
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Sep 16, 2009 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Here's a nice article
on the greatest pennant race comebacks in the history of baseball.
Interesting that almost all of them involve teams facing 10-12 game deficits in August. My take is that the greatest comeback / collapse was the Cardinals / Phillies in 1964, because it involved a 6 1/2 game lead with only 12 to play. When you look at all the things that had to go right for the Cardinals and wrong for the Phillies for that to happen, it makes your head spin.
If the Cardinals were to blow an 8 1/2 game lead with 16 to play, it might overtake 1964 in the annals of baseball.
The point is...
… that comebacks similar to what the Cubs would have to do HAVE happened before.
Here’s another one. In 1987 the Blue Jays led the Tigers by 3.5 games with 7 games remaining. They were three outs away from beating the Tigers and going up 4.5 games with 6 left. Then Kirk Gibson hit a home run and the Tigers won that game in 13 innings.
Still, 2.5 games up with six left. Should have been a no-brainer, right?
Wrong. The Blue Jays didn’t win another game. The Tigers beat them 1-0 on the last day of the season to clinch.
It CAN happen. It’s happened to many other teams. I say again, WHY NOT US?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Hmmm.
Well, the Cubs won a game last night in which he played by six runs.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Miles made an appearance (as in occupying space).
he didn’t “play”
"Truth hurts. Maybe not as much as jumping on a bicycle with the seat missing, but it hurts." - Leslie Nielson
How about...
The 2007 Colorado Rockies who won 15 (or whatever ridic #) straight to end the season to tie for the Wild Card, were overlooked, won the one game playoff, and then went on to the World Series! If the Cubs were to make the playoffs this season, they would have to do something similar to this.
Right
and what the Rockies accomplished in 2007 was the first time that had been done in 100+ years of major league baseball. And you are pinning your hopes on it happening for the second time in 2 years? Good luck with that.
Why deny the dude his hope?
You are so adamant that it can’t happen. We get it. Its a long shot. But it COULD happen.
What about somebody clinging to that hope gets your undies in such a bunch?
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions
What is it about logic
that gets your panties in such a bunch? I am merely responding to people’s posts. It’s not like I started a thread with the heading “Cubs are done!”. You guys are trying so hard to twist things to make it look like there is realistic hope, why is it considered bad manners when facts and figures are used to refute the goofy stuff that is being said?
Whatever dude.
You are clearly and obviously invested in telling everybody why it can’t happen, why it won’t happen.
We get it. It’s a long shot. As i’m sure you are fully aware, cubs fans aren’t an overly optimistic bunch. But pissing in everybody’s cereal every time they say “hey, there is a chance this is possible” is pretty annoying, and you are doing exactly that.
You seem to want to attack every time somebody goes optimistic, and then scream “facts, logic, blah blah blah” when they say “yeah but i hold out hope due to reason x, or example z”.
Fair enough. You don’t believe. Keep it to yourself, or at the very least stop berating everyone who does. Its unbecoming.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
Some people post to go on record as being optimistic, maybe to rally the troups, to make people feel better — and some people post to go on record as being right. I must say that AzzJazz is very consistent in his posts.
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
I'm not sure I get the gist of this
but are you implying that some people should post with the intent of being wrong?
If so, there are plenty of folks on here that are doing a good job.
No...
… he’s saying some people post hope, and others stick to realistic assessment. This is obvious, obviously.
He also seems to be implying that there are those that keep away from hope and stick to whats likely so they can jump up and down and point out how right they are and how wrong everyone else is. And the implication is that you are that guy.
The question is, why? Offended baseball sensibility? Really? How lame.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Okay
so what you are saying is that it’s not my desire to stay in the real world that bugs you so much, it’s the possibility that I might be right. Well, sorry about that.
Or maybe you are saying that by pointing out the reasons why the Cubs chances are slim and none and slim is making travel plans, I am stating the obvious. Well, on that I would have to agree. After all, Al updates the BR % playoff chances with daily updates. The last time I checked it was like 2%, so I guess this is a legitimate point.
Yep anybody who has a different thought than azjazzman is wrong, I now know that.
Some people say the glass is half empty, some say half full. I say, are you going to drink that?
by BleedsbluinMI on Sep 16, 2009 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions
I think
you have that backwards. anybody who has a different thought from the Blue Believers is wrong. This is historical, going back as far as gaius marius, who I believe correctly identified the debacle of the post 2003 Dusty Baker led Cubs, and was villified here. There just doesn’t seem to be any tolerance here for ideas and thoughts that don’t toe the line.
see above post as an example of my point
Some people say the glass is half empty, some say half full. I say, are you going to drink that?
by BleedsbluinMI on Sep 16, 2009 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions
If your point is that
anybody who assumes the role of the “loyal opposition” to the Cubs Can Do No Wrong contingent is automatically wrong, they yes, you are absolutely correct.
No, I think my point is you just like to disagree.
You spent a lot of time the other day defending Blou, and acted as if you knew nothing of his past issues. Then, you referred to him as Blue Mike, so you clearly knew that was one of his previous banned monikers. Hmm, fishy.
You claim the victim of having to be the one to stand up to this vast can do no wrong conspiracy. Yet, to a man, every poster has said, isn’t likely, would like to see it happen (WC), but most likely won’t. And, very frustrated with the under performance of the team as a whole. So, not sure how that is a can do no wrong. Maybe holding out hope while there is some is being supportive of your – you know like a good fan would do. There has been no shortage of pointing out the problems by these same people. I just don’t see the argument you continually need to make.
I know you will respond and tell me how I am 100% wrong and feel good that you have “refuted” my argument. You won’t really read this ar give it any consideration.
Just starting to feel a little trollish to me.
Some people say the glass is half empty, some say half full. I say, are you going to drink that?
by BleedsbluinMI on Sep 16, 2009 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Well when you make assumptions
you make an ass out of u and me. I used to participate on BCB years ago when BLou was Blue Mike. Then, in subsequent years, I did not participate much (did not even read it much) until fairly recently. So, in fact, I am NOT aware of everything that BLou has said or done. Nor do I much care.
But, I will say this: I have seen plenty of examples of the lynch mob mentality on here, not just with BLou bit also others, when the only offense was to be critical of the Cubs or to point out something that might be construed as negative. It really is amazing. You guys just don’t like it when someone tries to inject some reality on here, and that is irrefutable.
We're critical of A LOT of things about the Cubs.
You must not really read BCB very often.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 6:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Okay you've got a point
maybe it’s just when someone who is not part of the “brotherhood” makes negative posts that you go into attack mode.
No, I take that back. It’s only when someone has the temerity to try to “take your hope away”. I guess your hope must be in a pretty fragile state if someone posting all the way from Arizona can steal it away so easily.
You're don't seem to be able to match up posters with their comments..
I never accused you of trying to “take (my) hope away”.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 6:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Haha, you are quite funny.
What I assumed was you wouldn’t read or give my post any consideration, just rush to tell me how I was wrong.
Exactly what you did. Please, hero, you aren’t the only one who injects realism. As I said in the post you didn’t read, just told how I was wrong, a lot of people criticize a lot of things about the Cubs on here.
Some people say the glass is half empty, some say half full. I say, are you going to drink that?
by BleedsbluinMI on Sep 16, 2009 6:24 PM CDT up reply actions
You were wrong several places
One of them being when you implied that I was being disingenuous when I acted like I was unaware of all of Blou’s transgressions. I just explained to you why you were wrong about that.
ok, i knew you'd be sure to point out how I was wrong, phew. Thanks for explaining that.
hmm, no repsonse to what the hell it is exactly what you are argiung about. You have studied Blou, well, grasshopper. That was his favorite, too. Just skip the stuff that makes too much sense.
Some people say the glass is half empty, some say half full. I say, are you going to drink that?
by BleedsbluinMI on Sep 16, 2009 6:39 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't care how hard
you guys try to tie me to BLou, it isn’t going to stick. It’s a nice attempt to try to recover when you ain’t got nothing else, but unfortunately, it has no basis at all. The next lame thing from you clowns is that you will try to say that I am BLou. That will, finally, make me mad.
You'll tell us to pound sand?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Clowns? Humm...
… calling names to deflect from the conversation when cornered? How very BLou-esque of you!
As the man would say… TOTAL GARBAGE!
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes
It is interesting that, after trying for several hours, you have finally raised my ire. I am done.
The old "I am done" thing huh?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, here is what I was told by a very smart poster here:
“I love it when people are shown to be completely off base and they respond by saying, "I’m moving on" It’s pretty hard to follow that.”
Oh wait, that was the jazzman…
He’s on the Diamondbacks site with his real friends now. Gametime!
Some people say the glass is half empty, some say half full. I say, are you going to drink that?
by BleedsbluinMI on Sep 16, 2009 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions
The surest way to tell you've won a debate...
… is when your opponent stops trying to refute you and starts trying to insult you.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions
The fact that you...
… seem to most closely identify with a dude who has been banned multiple times and was just yesterday seen calling somebody a cu*t says volumes about you.
We don’t have a problem with reality. Most of us are acutely aware of it. Some are over the top “kool-aid drinkers” but why is that any less ok than your supposed “reality”? Because you say so? Ok…
We have a problem with self righteous “shame on you for holding out hope” comments.
Maybe its time for another break. You are taking this all far to personally.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 6:26 PM CDT up reply actions
OK that is where I draw the line
You are way out of bounds. I do not identify with BLou and I resent your saying that. And you’re damn right I take that personally. The fact that you would say that, following your out of bounds comment about loved ones with incurable diseases, just proves what type of person you are. I have not felt the need to make such outrageous comments about you.
Did i hurt your feelings?
Don’t worry… its not you, its me.
You’ve come off the tracks here man. If my metaphor was out of bounds, somebody other than the one it was directed at (you) would have let me know so. Al has no problem telling people when they’ve crossed the line, and he’s the one that draws the lines around here, not you.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh heavens, what ever shall i do?
Well, this ‘clown dolt’ has had enough of debating with you today, now that your vitriol has devolved from poor attempts at defending yourself to pure insults.
Its been real. I’m off to Wrigley.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions
His thinly veiled accusations...
… that i’m not a “real” cubs fan because i cling to the sliver of hope that the Cubs could make the playoffs cracks me right the hell up.
Just an absolutely absurd line of thinking.
Somebody needs a hug.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions
I know I do
Some people say the glass is half empty, some say half full. I say, are you going to drink that?
by BleedsbluinMI on Sep 16, 2009 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm glad it cracks you up
because that isn’t even close to what I said. I’m glad you have a sense of humor, because your reading skills aren’t very good.
What I said was, any true cubs fan, like Jessica or Al, for instance, both of whom I consider friends, would not be threatened by anything I wrote in any of my posts. They would not be threatened because, #1, they know I nearly always back up my contentions with actual numbers, which after all, is the essence of baseball, and #2, they know me well enough to know that I am amused and entertained by, and in fact, much admire Cubs fans for their loyalty and enthusiasm, even during trying times.
I wouldn’t even be here if that wasn’t the case, and if you weren’t so busy being threatened by some totally benign baseball chatter, you could see that.
Funny, I can banter with Al about the prospects of a Cubs sweep of the D’Backs in the last series of the year, and Al can trot out his numbers and I can trot out mine, and there is no need for it to get personal. We respect each other and that’s not going to change. That is why I am somewhat suspect when you maintain that I am the only problem here.
Wait, what happened to you ignoring me?
Right here, ballhawk proposes an entirely possible albeit unlikely way the cubs sneak in to the playoffs. Numbers, facts, all that stuff you claim to so dearly love (so long as it doesn’t get in the way of your pessimism).
Your response?
Pipe dream.
No numbers, no evidence. Just dismissing his hopeful scenario for the sake of doing so. And i could scroll though your comment history here and find plenty of other examples of you doing the same. Why? Why is it so hard for you to just accept somebodies hope as how they celebrate their fandom?
Again, it insults your baseball sensibility? How lame.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
That is hilarious
That was like, the first thing I posted this morning, while I was still having my coffee, and since then I have made a gazillion posts explaining why that is so. You have got to be kidding with this one.
That is the real reason I have kept reading your posts. The amusement value is incredible.
Oh... so you are only a "grumpy gus" when you haven't had your coffee yet?
Fine, man. Than i think a run over to Starbucks is in order.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions
You are blindly
missing the point. I don’t care one way or the other if every Cubs fan in the world goes to bed at night chanting, “we still have a chance, we still have a chance”. It just offends my baseball sensibility when fact, logic, and common sense are twisted all out of shape in a lame attempt to support their optimism. I have never once tried to say the Cubs don’t have a chance, or that it is impossible for them to pull off a miracle. But, I don’t think it is being mean, insensitive or anything else you might accuse me of to point out the uphill battle that the Cubs are facing. If anything, a real Cubs fan could easily take that as evidence of what an incredible feat it would be if they were able to pull it off.
If you take that as me being the Grinch that Stole Christmas, then I think that says a lot more about you than me.
The fact that...
… you seem to be swimming against a tide of popular opinion here should maybe clue you in that the problem might just be you, not the rest of us.
If we all so deeply “offend your baseball sensibility”, go elsewhere. No purpose in taking on the world just to “prove” to everyone else that there is no hope.
I feel bad for the loved one in your life that comes down with some sort of disease that they have little chance to recover from, if this is how you trudge through your day-to-day.
Hope isn’t bad. Again, i must repeat (at the risk of “offending your baseball sensibility”): HOPE IS NOT BAD.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Additionally...
If anything, a real Cubs fan could easily take that as evidence of what an incredible feat it would be if they were able to pull it off.
All of us “real” cubs fans here aren’t saying it WILL happen. In fact, we aren’t even saying it is LIKELY to happen. Some here like to dream about how it MIGHT happen, or look at historical scenarios where similar comebacks DID happen. There is no harm in that, but you seem to take offense to it.
We know its unlikely. We don’t need to be reminded by the likes of you every time we allow a sliver of hope to shine through.
An innate desire to rain on everybody else’s parade is an odd thing.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Now that statement
is just plain ridiculous. Do you really think that the fact that I do not fall in line with a bunch of kool aid drinkers, which make up the vast majority of the responses I have gotten, somehow makes me the one that is the problem, as you put it?
I have been through this before. This is a blog for baseball discussion, not just blind Cubs worship. If Al asks me to leave, I’ll leave. I really don’t feel the need to take advice in that regard from someone whose thought process is warped enough to try to draw a bizarre parallel between a baseball pennant race and a loved one with a terminal disease.
And for the record, I NEVER SAID HOPE WAS BAD. For the last time. Just trying to put it in some perspective.
Do me and yourself a favor and refrain from responding. You comment about a loved one caused me to lose interest in hearing any more of what you have to say.
Its a perfectly good comparison.
And discounting it for the sake of discounting it isn’t going to do you any better than you did above in your little debate with SWL.
Proclaiming something to be so does not make it so.
And pissing in the cereal of everyone who shows hope by pointing out the painfully obvious “its not likely” may make you feel like a better baseball fan, but it does so at the expense of people that do you no harm. We don’t need you to point out the obvious OVER AND OVER AND OVER. We get it.
Some here like to play the hope game. You don’t. We get it.
Get over yourself.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow, you are obsessed with getting banned.
Relax, read the guidelines, Al gives a lot of warnings. Paranoid much?
In that same vein, weren’t you the one above grousing about intolerance of viewpoints? Something like:
“Which just proves my point from yesterday about the intolerance here for any point of view that doesn’t fit the accepted company line. Sort of like Nazi Germany.”
Maybe you shouldn’t be asking someone to refrain from posting?
Some people say the glass is half empty, some say half full. I say, are you going to drink that?
by BleedsbluinMI on Sep 16, 2009 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Now tell me
exactly what have I said that would warrant getting banned? Please, I would love to hear.
You brought up banning, nobody else.
If Al asks me to leave, I’ll leave.
You have acute paranoia that your doomsday predictions will result in you not being welcome here anymore. I’ve never seen any evidence that something like that takes place at BCB.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, it might be a fine point
but to me, Al asking me to leave is a much different thing than me being banned. As we discussed yesterday, banning is reserved for people using being profane or abusive. I don’t think I have been either.
However, if Al were to email me off blog and say, “You are upsetting people and I don’t think your posts are contributing anything to the group other than to annoy people”, then I would have to consider retiring from BCB. I know that might make some of you happy, but I really don’t think that view is universally held.
BTW, as far as my paranoia, as you put it. I have left BCB before, for long periods, because I was made to feel not welcome, so there is precident. It always winds up with someone telling me that I am not welcome because I am not a Cubs fan, and I cannot argue with that, because I am not. But, I do enjoy the baseball banter on here, and despite what some of you think, I like it when people challenge me and disagree with something I have said. It makes me think more and that is not a bad thing. But, if the vast majority of people here are irritated by my posts, then there is no reason for me to be here.
You like it when people challenge you and disagree with what you say...
and then complain about being challenged and argued with.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions
When did I ever do that?
I didn’t even complain when you called me a ridiculous jerk. I just pointed out that it was a personal attack. But, trust me, it did not bother me. Sorry, but I am skeptical on this until and unless you provide some examples.
And I quote...
“There just doesn’t seem to be any tolerance here for ideas and thoughts that don’t toe the line.”
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions
ouch
ftw
Some people say the glass is half empty, some say half full. I say, are you going to drink that?
by BleedsbluinMI on Sep 16, 2009 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions
That comment is not about people disagreeing
with me, SWL, and you know it.
That is about people questioning my motives, my intelligence, my sensitivity and my social skills when I make a point.
C’mon, you’re going to have to do better than that.
All I ask
is that is you disagree with something I have posted, support it with something tangible. Instead, I get called a jerk, accused of wanting to steal people’s hope, and somehow insensitive to my loved ones.
I haven't called you a jerk...
… or anything else.
I’ve pointed out your desire to debate peoples hopeful comments, but thats really what we are debating here, so whatever.
And i didn’t accuse you of being insensitive to your loved ones, i used a metaphor where one of your loved ones was sick and had very little hope, and asked if you’d respond to them in the same way you’ve responded to cubs fans hoping to make the postseason.
Maybe SWL’s “you must not tell your kids about Santa” comment was less hurtful to you, but the point is the same.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm the one who called him a jerk Andrew.
when he saw fit to “apologize”.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions
It's strange to make this kind of demand...
when our conversation was about the possible outcome of something that’s already occurred. We simply disagree about what was possible. You’re facts to support your opinion are the actual things that happened, my opinion over what could have been possible is just that, and opinion.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Hey man... i'm not questioning your fandom.
I don’t belive you’d be here if you weren’t a fan.
I’m questioning your tolerance for fans who don’t subscribe to your pessimistic ways. It clearly burns your britches when somebody gets all excited for the possibility of something good happening, remote as it may be.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions
If you think
my saying that the Cubs are facing an EXTREME uphill battle, despite the recent wins makes me pessimistic, well, then I don’t know what to say. I am also pessimistic that the Diamondbacks will win all of their remaining games, so I guess that must make me a Gloomy Gus.
Gloomy Gus.
On that, finally, we can agree.
Now if only you wouldn’t be so damn combative about it whenever a Happy Hector showed his face.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions
I really
would like to hear examples of my supposed combativeness. I never called anybody a jerk or told them that they must be insensitive to a loved one with a terminal disease. All I have done is to try to make a point and back it up with facts. If that makes me combative in your eyes, then that’s on you.
The "its not me, its you" argument seems to be a popular one with you.
I don’t have to provide more examples of your combativeness. I did so right here, and you’ve yet to respond to the comment.
And I don’t have to convince everyone else as its pretty evident to the masses, it seems.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 6:11 PM CDT up reply actions
No, you just compared us to Nazi Germany.
Totally non-combative thing to do.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions
completely missed the point. you have done nothing to get banned. hence paranoia
Some people say the glass is half empty, some say half full. I say, are you going to drink that?
by BleedsbluinMI on Sep 16, 2009 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh and for the record
I didn’t ask what’s his face from refrain from posting, I just asked to refrain from responding to me, because I had no intention of reading any more of what he has to say.
Ah, the old "i win because i'm not paying attention any more" argument.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions
I CANT SEE YOU
YOU CANT SEE ME
people who swing at the first pitch should get punched in the face
by jesus christos on Sep 16, 2009 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Also popular:
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions
WHOOSH!
the sound of this one going right over my head. Saying that I’m in favor of hugs means that I am not paying attention anymore? Sorry, I don’t get it.
Acting like...
… you weren’t going to read what i had to say in response to your comment is akin to placing your fingers squarely in your ears and pretending i’m not there.
And you clearly read it and couldn’t resist responding 10 minutes later anyways, so whatever.
The hugs thing had nothing to do with this little tangent of the argument.
Are you confused about how these conversational comment threads work?
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions
I take it you also tell your children there is no Santa Claus.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions
but there is a tooth fairy
people who swing at the first pitch should get punched in the face
by jesus christos on Sep 16, 2009 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow - I go away to the Cubs game and come home to quite the extended thread here...
I suppose I was one of the instigators in all this, but I never intended it to get to the levels I’ve seen so far (and I have quite a few comments to still read). So my apologies for starting somewhat of a landslide – but then again, it appears azjazzman has no problems parrying all thrusts in his general direction so I won’t lose too much sleep over it.
I realize this thread is probably played out but I’m picking this particular comment to respond to because I think it contains a very critical phrase that might explain why a lot of us here seem to differ with azjazzman on this topic (my emphasis).
…look like there is realistic hope…
Can’t speak for the others, but to me, hope kinda implies a certain lack of realism – that’s why we hope.
If we felt there was a realistic chance for something to happen, we probably don’t put as much effort/thought into hoping for it because we already think it’s gonna happen. But when the chips are down, we’re facing significant challenges and the odds are not good, well…. that’s when “hope” kicks in.
I guess my point is, I don’t see a need to respond/refute every hope-laden comment with facts/figures/realistic assessments. I think most, if not all of us, understand what we’re up against – that’s why we’re hoping…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Sep 16, 2009 11:56 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks ballhawk.
You captured it much better than i was able.
Dum spiro spero…
Unrelated note: I was up in the bleachers and saw a couple of guys scrambling for the Fox foul ball that just barely went left of the pole mid-game. Any chance that was you?
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 17, 2009 8:26 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Mr. Stone, I admire your persistence on this thread
I like the Latin quote, and feel uneducated that I had never seen it before. I think that Al should put it in the masthead.
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
Thank you!
Took a little Latin in high school and that phrase stuck with me.
In fact, i think i’ll make it my sig line.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 17, 2009 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions
When the Jays went up 3.5 games with a win against the Tigers, Gibson was quoted after the game that "Maybe we're setting the biggest bear trap of all time".
He was right.
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
The collar tightens considerably the last weeks of the season as you try and clinch.
Everything is magnified…
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
Players start worrying about hitting slumps and making errors.
Pitchers try to win every start themselves.
As Ronnie says: When you’re ahead, it seems like inches. When you’re behind, it seem like miles.
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
That too...
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
Why is it that
there was a reporter with the chutzpah to ask Zambrano about trade rumors after the game (which, honestly, I thought was a totally unnecessary question to ask at the time) but no one is questioning Lou’s practical refusal to play Fox?
I'm gonna guess
That a 10-4 record in September eases the pressure on the manager for questionable personnel moves. Just a hunch.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Fox has started once in the last two weeks...
There HAS to be a reason for that that the public doesn’t know about.
by kanderber on Sep 16, 2009 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
We're on a "need-to-know" basis I guess.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Steve Cochran of WGN asked Lou why Jake Fox hasn't been playing much...
…on Monday, September 14, and here’s a transcription of what Lou said:
He’s playing tonight! Well, y’know, he cooled down a little bit. Gotta little anxious at home plate, started swinging at the rosin bag, so we kept him outta there for a while. But tonight it’s amazing you brought up his name because he’s in left field hitting sixth in the lineup. So hopefully we can get him hot again.
(I subscribe to the Lou Piniella Show podcast and still have the episode on my iPod.)
Jake went 1 for 3 that night with a single.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
I don't really get it either.
Your theory that Fox did or said something to aggravate Lou still seems like the most plausible explanation. Unless maybe Sam Fuld has put Lou on a defensive kick and he thinks Scales’ D outweights Jake’s bat. Assuming the wind isn’t howling in, I’d rather have Fox in the lineup – especially against an offensive team like the Brewers.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
Scales maybe better than Fox defensively
But he is my view below average and his play last nigh showed it. I have no idea why Lou keeps starting him over Fox.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Sep 16, 2009 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Fish up 4-0 bottom of the 2nd in StL...
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
Mid 3 now...
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
Now end 3.
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
This is riveting play by play!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2009 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions
If riveting play by play falls in an empty forest, does it make a sound?
I’m just giving the essence of what you need to know…;)
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
Fish out in the 5th. Still 4-0 Fish over the Cards.
BTW: The Cards FOX announcers say they’ll put the division away this weekend verses the Cubs.
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
Someone posted yesterday if we won that game, the Cards couldn't clinch this weekend
color me confused
Some people say the glass is half empty, some say half full. I say, are you going to drink that?
by BleedsbluinMI on Sep 16, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions
I think they mean they'll put a stranglehold on it with a sweep.
They’re Cards announcers. Numbers confuse them…
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
Ok, I get it. Thanks, I don't speak St. Louis dumbass
Some people say the glass is half empty, some say half full. I say, are you going to drink that?
by BleedsbluinMI on Sep 16, 2009 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Cards out in the 5th. 4-0 Fish.
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
Pinero out now for the Cards. Reyas coming in. One on for the Fish.
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
Fish fail to score with a RISP. 4-0 Fish mid 6.
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
Cards score. 4-1 Fish. 2 out single, Molina scores. Johnson still in for FLA.
That’s it for me. I’m heading out. Go (you g****mn) Fish!
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
I May be in San Francisco on the 27th
I’ve never been to that ballpark. Does anyone have suggestions for where to sit if I can swing it?
"Bats, they are sick. I cannot hit curveball. Straightball I hit it very much. Curveball, bats are afraid. I ask Jobu to come, take fear from bats. I offer him cigar, rum. He will come. " Pedro Cerrano
by shifafaontheside on Sep 16, 2009 2:49 PM CDT reply actions
Inside.
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
Try to find a chair or some sort.
Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 16, 2009 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions
on your butt?
Some people say the glass is half empty, some say half full. I say, are you going to drink that?
by BleedsbluinMI on Sep 16, 2009 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions
I've sat in several locations
at AT&T and I don’t think there is a bad seat in the whole ballpark. The upper deck has outstanding sight lines and you still feel close to the field, and you get the extra benny of the panoramic view of the bay and China Basin. sigh
Thanks for the advice
A bit more helpful than Zeke’s
"Bats, they are sick. I cannot hit curveball. Straightball I hit it very much. Curveball, bats are afraid. I ask Jobu to come, take fear from bats. I offer him cigar, rum. He will come. " Pedro Cerrano
by shifafaontheside on Sep 16, 2009 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Sorry. I've got a keyboard full of wise ass this afternoon.
I keep trying to discipline it, but to no avail…
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
Not a problem
My keyboard gets its share of wiseass too
"Bats, they are sick. I cannot hit curveball. Straightball I hit it very much. Curveball, bats are afraid. I ask Jobu to come, take fear from bats. I offer him cigar, rum. He will come. " Pedro Cerrano
by shifafaontheside on Sep 16, 2009 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions
I've been to SF as well.
… azjazzman is correct. There really isn’t a bad seat in the house.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Great stadium
Be sure to get the signature garlic fries or whatever they were, I remember the taste, not the name.
I would try and get seats in the RF upper deck. It’s a great place to watch baseball and all the sightlines are great. The view of the bay from right field is spectacular.
by IllinoisCubs on Sep 16, 2009 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Thanks
I appreciate all the help. By the way, Garlic fries are great at Safeco Field in Seattle too. I’ll be there next June!
"Bats, they are sick. I cannot hit curveball. Straightball I hit it very much. Curveball, bats are afraid. I ask Jobu to come, take fear from bats. I offer him cigar, rum. He will come. " Pedro Cerrano
by shifafaontheside on Sep 16, 2009 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions
There are a few bad seats
But easy to avoid. They are on the left side upper level, where the upper level abruptly ends — there are just a few sight-obstructed seats there. My wife had a company outing that was there, and they must have bought the last seats in the ballpark. I would guess that there are a few similar seats in the symmetrical location on the right side.
The other recommendations are good, too. Upper deck on the right side has the best views of the bay and SF skyline. The garlic fries are great, as are the Sheboygan brats. And microbrews, lots of great microbrews. Be sure to take a walk around the ballpark while you are there — you can go all the way around, and see the giant mitt and the boat traffic in McCovey cove up close. Plus, you will probably find even more great food and drink than I am aware of.
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
If John Havlicek made the 6th man famous,
I think we can given Aaron Miles the “26th Man” award this year.
No doubt Miles contributions would have been better had he been kept off the active roster.
Maybe BCB can whip up a 26th man t-shirt in his honor—XXS only.
"Truth hurts. Maybe not as much as jumping on a bicycle with the seat missing, but it hurts." - Leslie Nielson
Have a cage match where Joey Gathright, Ryan Freel and Aaron Miles can't leave the
batters box until one makes contact with 10 BP pitches in a row.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Another Angle...
Finish off the sweep of the Brewers, take 3 from the Cards, and we’re suddenly 4 games back in the Central with 15 to play.
St. Louis has been struggling lately, so it’s not impossible.
Pujols just got nailed in the shoulder to force in run number 2
5-2 fish, bases loaded bottom ninth
Albert Pujols for Cubs Starting 1B in 2012
saint holliday grounds into a game ending DP
UNPOSSIBLE
people who swing at the first pitch should get punched in the face
by jesus christos on Sep 16, 2009 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions
thank God
teh Marlins don’t have Gregg closing for them—GW walk-off.
instead they have a cocky closer who hates khill
people who swing at the first pitch should get punched in the face
by jesus christos on Sep 16, 2009 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions
sorry
but i wont let myself get sucked back into the cubs getting to the postseason. but i do enjoy seein them play well and trying to finish 2nd. only divine intervention could help us now.
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