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Around SBN: Missouri Crashes The Top Line After Kansas Win

Fat Lady Clears Throat; Cubs Lose To Brewers 9-5

NOW what do you do with Rich Harden?

One of the more exasperating talents in recent years to wear a Cub uniform, Harden has had great success this year in night games (6-3, 2.66 before last night's game). So you figured that he'd be ready for a good performance against the Brewers. Unfortunately, Harden suddenly remembered that he was pitching at Wrigley Field (3-6, 5.90 before last night's game), and gave up hit after bloop hit in three innings of work. It took him 71 pitches to get nine outs and at that point, Lou had seen enough and sent Aaron Miles up to bat for him. It seemed a good idea to get Miles out of the way early, but he actually got a hit and scored a run. The last time Miles did both of those in the same game was on August 8 in Colorado, where he hit his only triple of the year.

In any case, Harden's bad outing -- he was charged with only two earned runs of the five he allowed, because a tough grounder that glanced off Aramis Ramirez's glove was ruled an error after the fact -- helped lead the Cubs to 9-5 loss to the Brewers in a game they simply could not afford to lose in their desperate charge to get back into the wild card race. With the Rockies hanging on, barely, to win 4-3 over the Giants late last night, the Cubs trail by 6.5 games with 18 to go.

Deficits like this have been overcome in the past, and more than once. But it's getting more difficult each day.

Star-divide

Much as I hate to admit it, BLou was probably right about David Patton. Can we declare this experiment over? I'm not sure if the Cubs had anyone else who could have occupied the slot given over to the Rule 5 acquisition for three months, but Patton, who will be 26 next May, came in to relieve Harden and wasn't really any better. He walked two, gave up four hits and was charged with four earned runs when Justin Berg allowed a two-run single in relief of him in the fifth inning. Actually, that single by Corey Hart was the blow that put the game away, because without that the Cubs would have reduced the deficit to 7-5 instead of 9-5, and then you've got a much closer game.

The Cubs had plenty of baserunners -- sixteen of them, courtesy of 13 hits and three walks, but hit into a pair of rally-crushing double plays. The most deflating of those occurred in the eighth inning when the first two men reached base, only to see Ryan Theriot hit into a DP. Theriot actually had a good night, reaching base safely in his first four plate appearances with three hits and a walk, but when crunch time came he failed.

Lou actually appeared to be awake last night; I think the Cubs moving back into marginal contention energized him, at least for a while. He double-switched the pitcher's spot three different times, including yanking Milton Bradley out of the game after he grounded out with two runners on to end the third inning. Paul Sullivan says there might have been something beyond a double-switch involved:

Bradley looked so disinterested during his second-inning strikeout that Piniella yanked him after the third. Piniella downplayed it afterward, saying it was only a double-switch.

I agree with Lou, although the score was 5-2 at the time and Micah Hoffpauir, who replaced Bradley in right field, didn't do any better, flying to left and hitting a comebacker before he was removed in another double-switch.

So the Cubs face the task of mounting a long winning streak starting today and getting some help if they're going to overcome the 6.5 game deficit. Impossible? No. Unlikely? Yes. But I'd like to see them finish the season strong. And as for Harden... frustrating, maddening, aggravating, whatever other adjectives you'd like to add. He's got top-line ability, but many times looks like he has no idea what he's doing out there. Sullivan's article says:

Piniella said he may give Harden an extra day of rest before his next start, inserting Tom Gorzelanny into the mix.

Gorzelanny (and the nine-days-missing Sean Marshall, too) threw well last night in relief. That's a good idea. The Cubs can pick up a half-game with a win today. Keep the faith -- it's not over, not yet.

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Is it time to don the viking helmut and braided blonde ponytails?

Yikes. Times getting REALLY short now boys & girls…

"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)

Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...

by Zeke on Sep 17, 2009 7:38 AM CDT reply actions  

The things you learn about people...

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on Sep 17, 2009 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

TMI anyone?

"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill

by vonde6 on Sep 17, 2009 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

Reminds me of one of the final scenes from St. Elsewhere...

when Dr. Fiscus is trying to decide whether he should leave the hospital or not (for good) and suddenly an ER curtain next to him is pulled back revealing a very large woman in full Valkyrie attire singing an aria at the top of lungs (the running joke was she had lost her voice and was there the entire episode getting treatment).

The fat lady’s warming up…

"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)

Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...

by Zeke on Sep 17, 2009 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

SPOILER ALERT. Do not read if you have not seen last episode.

Of course the FINAL scene reveals that the entire show was in fact a fantasy in the mind of an autistic child. Sounds
about right for the Cubs , at least this year.

One of my all time favorite shows.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Sep 17, 2009 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

That and the final episode of Newhart were flashback/dream sequence CLASSICS...

Now one of those seasons of Dallas? Not so much :P

"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)

Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...

by Zeke on Sep 17, 2009 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

LOL....

That show ended 20 years ago and you want to give a spoiler alert?

One of my faves, too.

Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team

by carmen_fanzone on Sep 17, 2009 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

It is being ru-run on cable and I am guessing some folks never saw it.

For the KIDS here, this is one the best shows ever and you can see Denzel Washington. Howie Mandel, David Morse,
Mark Harmon and other actors early in their careers. For us old folks Ed Flanders, Norman Lloyd and the one and only William Daniels.
FYI the final episode was excellent but the final episode of Newhart is my favorite of this “genre” . Much more than the final scene. The parody of FIDDLER was PRICELESS.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Sep 17, 2009 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think the Cubs will not re-sign Harden...

Unless the payroll goes up again or unless the team is able to shed salary via trade, there just isn’t the flexibility to take on his contract next year. I think we’re going to have to hope that Wells maintains his 2009 form next year and that one of Marshall and Gorzellany establishes himself as a solid fifth starter.

by SouthernCub on Sep 17, 2009 7:39 AM CDT reply actions  

And that Zambrano... if he's not traded

actually acts his age and does his situps

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Sep 17, 2009 7:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes... we'd need the other three to remain sub-4.00 ERA guys...

and Wells to do well. And then hope that Marshall or Gorzellany to be a ~4.50 or better ERA.

by SouthernCub on Sep 17, 2009 7:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

So did Jake Peavy.

NTC’s get waived all the time.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Sep 17, 2009 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

RIght

That’s why I said Z says he’s not going anywhere instead of Z is not going anywhere.

by LT on Sep 17, 2009 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Let Harden walk.

Use that money on a reliever and either SS or 2nd. Hopefully the offense rebounds and in July trade for an ace. Or maybe sign someone like
Brad Penny if you could him somewhat cheap/5M or less.

Chicago
Cubs

We are the better CC.

by Zy Toro Young on Sep 17, 2009 8:04 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I think your right

Cubs will let Harden go.Pick up another 4-5 starter type to compete with Marshall, and Gorzo for the 5 hole. Harden is to high risk. He will get some team to bite for 7-10M a year for at least 2 years.

by Grockcubs on Sep 17, 2009 8:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

I actually hope we don't overpay for another #4-5 type...

If we’re letting Harden go to save money, then overpaying for another #4-5 type doesn’t make much sense to me. Take the full savings and use the money elsewhere.

by SouthernCub on Sep 17, 2009 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Offer Harden Arbitration

He would probably command a 1 yr deal of $10mm or so. He would be well worth that. However, this is the one time in his career that he has been healthy for a long stretch of time. I can’t see him turning down the chance to secure a long term deal. He would most likely turn down arbitration and the Cubs would get 2 first round picks for him.

DON’T just let him walk.

"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray

by Archie on Sep 17, 2009 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

So now we agree with Sullivan?

I so confused

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Sep 17, 2009 7:39 AM CDT reply actions  

No, I said I agreed with Lou.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Sep 17, 2009 7:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but you gave Sully some cred here

I for one have no problem believing that Bradley is no longer interested.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Sep 17, 2009 7:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Y'know, in weeks past...

…this would be the point where I might leap to Milton’s defense. But I’m going to confess right here and now that this very suspicion has been creeping into my mind for the last few days.

Milton has drawn no walks so far in the month of September. None. Now I haven’t seen every one of his ABs in the last two to three weeks but, in the ones I have seen, he seems to be either hacking at everything or standing there watching pitches too close to take go by him – even before his usual two-strike count. (Last night’s three-pitch strikeout being a prime example.)

He did get robbed on a potential RBI single last night, which could have changed Lou’s decision to pull him, but he just doesn’t look like the same hyperfocused guy we saw earlier in the season. And I’m starting to wonder…

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Sep 17, 2009 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Was listening to the AM sports spew on the way to the office and they were speculating their belief

that either Lou or Bradley have to go as they do not seem to be able to coexist. Shocking I tell you, just shocking.

if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand

by N Oakley on Sep 17, 2009 8:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

The theory is they can't work together.

if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand

by N Oakley on Sep 17, 2009 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ack, reading is fundamental.

Both to go, I’m okay with that.

if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand

by N Oakley on Sep 17, 2009 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

yes, both to leave

I don’t want to see either one of them in Cubbie Blue next year

by Illicat on Sep 17, 2009 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Slumps happen

Just as his April and May are probably not indicative of the real Bradley, it’s likely that neither was July or August.

My concern is that this coincides with him hitting 5th and 6th. You know, the job he was brought here to do.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Sep 17, 2009 8:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

Why in the world did we bring him here to bat 5th?

Why didn’t we just get the best RF we could get and then find out where he best fits? Why keep trying to force players into roles that don’t necessarily fit them?

Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.

by DGU on Sep 17, 2009 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think you know the answer to that question: Lou.

His need to have a left-handed bat in the middle of the lineup seems to trump everything.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Sep 17, 2009 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well, yeah, Lou -

but why, Lou, why?

Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.

by DGU on Sep 17, 2009 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

It's a comfort blanket

When he’s had a lefty in the middle of the order, he’s generally been successful. In Seattle, it was John Olerud; in Cincinnati he had Paul O’Neill and Hal Morries.

I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg

by Bill Potter on Sep 17, 2009 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

Shocking concept

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on Sep 17, 2009 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

I hope you're right.

It just seems like, during Milton’s earlier slumps, he was still seeing a lot of pitches and drawing walks. His approach lately seems to be either hack at anything or stand there and do nothing. I’m not sure I have the energy for another Milton Bradley debate; I just needed to confess my own suspicions that, for some reason (and a few different ones come to mind), he’s gone into coast mode.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Sep 17, 2009 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's enough of a reason for me to send him packing

Time to admit your mistake, Hendry, and get this cancer out of town.

"He can't hit, he can't field, he can't run—all he can do is beat you."

by Itchy on Sep 17, 2009 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

In all fairness...

… you wanted him gone in the midst of that .500 homestand as well, so its not exactly shocking that you continue to do so.

I agree, MB hasn’t lived up to the promise we’d all hoped for. I’m just not sure its time to ditch him yet. He’s proven the ability to be a productive early in the order on-base type guy, and his defense doesn’t blow.

Sure, it isn’t working now, and if the cubs can figure out why in the off season and be reasonably assured the issue won’t continue, he may be worth keeping.

Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Sep 17, 2009 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

I have a hard time believing it was "just a double-switch" in the third inning

Piniella is doing the right thing here by not publicly calling out the player, but there was more to it than that. I don’t care who the beat writer is.

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Sep 17, 2009 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

I have a problem believing a word Sullivan writes

Especially when it comes to Milton.

Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.

by nji232 on Sep 17, 2009 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes

Bradley-baiting is one of Sullivan’s favorite activities. Like Dat Daver, I am weary of defending Bradley, however. I am in coast mode, too.

"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill

by vonde6 on Sep 17, 2009 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree.

Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT

by sue369 on Sep 17, 2009 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't know about writing off Patton

I do know it was a very, very bad choice to put them in the game THAT early when there was a chance to come back. Glad Lou was awake to pull double switches etc but not putting in Marshall or Gorzo for Harden killed the Cubs chances of coming back .

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Sep 17, 2009 7:44 AM CDT reply actions  

Agreed.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Sep 17, 2009 7:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

Why did we ever bother writing *IN* Patton?

The Cubs decided, for whatever reason, that they were cool with a 24-man roster for the first three months of the season. Is David Patton really that kind of a super-talent?

I can see Cincy doing this with Hamilton when they first signed him, because he obviously had the talent.

I can see PIT doing this with Veal, or KC doing this with, well, anyone they want really, because they aren’t really trying to contend and who cares.

But this is not something that contending teams do. The Cubs’ decision to go with a 13-man bullpen leaves the bench short one bat. Then, their decision to give one of the 13 spots to a Rule 5 acquisition essentially leaves the pen down an arm. (And Lou’s random decisions to let certain pitchers rot in the pen for weeks on end leaves the pen down another arm, but that’s neither here nor there.)

Bottom line – the Dodgers, Phillies, Angels, Yankees and Red Sox don’t seem to be all that interested in rostering middling Rule 5 players all year. Why are the Cubs doing these ridiculous things?

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Sep 17, 2009 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

Sometimes, Rule 5 guys contribute.

But Patton was never one of those type of guys.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Sep 17, 2009 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

The problem is not that Patton is rule 5

They did a reasonably effective job of getting his 90 days but WTF was he doing in LAST NIGHT when the game was
still within reach. I don’t know if Lou is stupid, senile or just trying to say F you to Hendry, media and fans.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Sep 17, 2009 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't know if you are kidding

but the obvious thing was to put in MARSHALL or GORZO. They are long relief guys but this a function Lou is apparently unaware of. Heilman would have been a very reasonable option had he not pitched yesterday but he still would have been a more logical choice.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Sep 17, 2009 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

Both the Phillies and Red Sox have done so with Rule 5 picks

The Red Sox had both Lenny DiNardo and Adam Stern on their roster as Rule 5 guys (though, admittedly, neither one is a major player at this point) in 2003 and 2004.

And the Phillies picked up some guy named Shane Victorino as a Rule 5 pick.

I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg

by Bill Potter on Sep 17, 2009 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but the Phillies didn't keep him on the MLB roster at all.

The Phillies offered Victorino back at the start of the season, but the Dodgers just completely gave up on him, and let the Phils have him. The Phils sent him to the minors.

As for the Red Sox -

Adam Stern was chosen in the Dec. 2004 Rule 5 draft, broke his hand in 2005 spring training, and sat on the DL until July, and then got used as a 5th OF who could play CF.

Lenny DiNardo was chosen in the Dec. 2003 Rule 5 draft, started the season on the DL, was on the team in May and June, and then spent the second half of the season on the DL. Similar to the Patton situation, in that regard.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Sep 17, 2009 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree.

But the fact remains that contending teams are still using the Rule 5 Draft to pick up players.

Now, I agree that the Cubs hurt themselves by keeping Patton on the active roster for 3 months and handicapping the team, but I can understand the argument that teams like the Cubs/Red Sox/Phillies can afford to take a flier on a Rule 5 pick and try and stash him on the roster for the year.

I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg

by Bill Potter on Sep 17, 2009 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not easily

Playing with a 24-man roster, with a manager who goes through substitutions like Greg House goes through vicodin isn’t a winning formula.

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Sep 17, 2009 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

It's not easy by any stretch.

But with a reliable bullpen, the Cubs probably could have afforded to keep Patton (or a better Rule 5 pick) on the active roster. The fact that Heilman, Vizcaino, etc., were awful for the first couple months only exacerbated the fact that the bullpen was more thin because Patton was around and couldn’t be sent down.

Frankly, the Cubs should have offered Colorado a bucket of balls and gotten Patton down to Iowa or Tennessee in May, when they needed a live arm.

I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg

by Bill Potter on Sep 17, 2009 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

That would require planning

Something that does not happen under the watch of Hendry and Piniella.

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Sep 17, 2009 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

Sadly, it does not seem to be a skill used in 2009.

I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg

by Bill Potter on Sep 17, 2009 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Write him off,

he’s a 26 year old nothing, those are a dime a dozen.

"He can't hit, he can't field, he can't run—all he can do is beat you."

by Itchy on Sep 17, 2009 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm twice that age. Can I have my twenty cents now, please?

I have 11 other people here with me…

"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)

Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...

by Zeke on Sep 17, 2009 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

LOL

"He can't hit, he can't field, he can't run—all he can do is beat you."

by Itchy on Sep 17, 2009 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Are they 26 as well? ;-)

"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 17, 2009 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

No one said that was a requirement...

Since they are “imaginary” people, I can imagine they are all 26, yes…

"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)

Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...

by Zeke on Sep 17, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

Good point.

You win! ;-)

"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 17, 2009 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

We will put him on waivers

The Cardinals will pick him up for nothing and he will will 20 games for them next year…. isn’t that how it goes?

"What we have here is a failure to communicate" - Strother Martin as "Captain"

by Icubsfan on Sep 17, 2009 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's maddening

to seemingly never know if your pitcher will be on! Where’s the consistency? Tough to count on any of our pitches except Lilly. As far as Zambrano bring our ace, I think that’s long gone.

by Saratoga on Sep 17, 2009 8:04 AM CDT reply actions  

Dempster has been really good lately

And I think Wells has been good enough to count on.

But Harden and Z both fell short (though it didn’t matter as much with Z) in starts that were extremely important. I think last night’s game cements Harden’s departure.

by elgato on Sep 17, 2009 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

Terrible post

Tough to count on any of out pitchers except Lilly. As far as Zambrano being our ace. I think that’s long gone.

Sorry about the errors.

by Saratoga on Sep 17, 2009 8:05 AM CDT reply actions  

My take

Where is Guzman. Is he hurt? Saving him for 2010? Or is the doghouse door closed and locked.
 Harden last night hardly if ever hit 90MPH on the gun. Patton in that spot, I just didn’t have any confidence he could keep the Brewers in check.
 It is a shame Fuld is hurt, he could spell both Dome and Bradley for a game or two.
 IMO Bradley does look uninterested. When you are a so called “OBP machine” and don’t take a walk in 13 games this month it is odd to say the least. It is almost like, “screw it, they want me to drive in runs from the 5 hole, fine I am hacking away” And of course last night first AB never swings the bat, takes 4 pitches then back to the dugout. Dome and Bradley are the two concerns that I have for next year. Cubs can not continue to get that poor of production from those two. Milton’s game is just frustrating.

by Grockcubs on Sep 17, 2009 8:07 AM CDT reply actions  

Guzman apparently IS hurt.

He may be available today.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Sep 17, 2009 8:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

Triceps thing again, no?

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on Sep 17, 2009 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

I heard last week

that the team is trying to limit innings for Guzman because of his history with injuries and this being his first full non injury season.

Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton

by KaliCub on Sep 17, 2009 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

Where the hec did So Taguchi come from?

Must have missed that on my long commute to the game. That was a surprise.

"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Sep 17, 2009 8:07 AM CDT reply actions  

Did you keep the sandals on?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Sep 17, 2009 8:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes and all I got out of it was blisters.

Got a ticket for only $3.50 for today’s game. I guess that’s the plus side of people giving up on them-I can afford a ticket now. I’m planning on walking the 4 miles from the Metra so it’ll have to be running shoes today.

Cards lost yesterday-trying to keep the faith.

"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Sep 17, 2009 8:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

just so used to getting the info asap on here

that I was shocked to find out at the game

"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Sep 17, 2009 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

You think YOU had a long commute to the game?

The I-Cubs season is over! Taguchi may have commuted from his home in Japan!

(OK, well, probably not. I’m sorta poking fun at Muskat for her comment yesterday that only Tennesee Smokies would be available b/c the other teams were done…. as if the Cubs organization scatters to the winds at the end of the minor league seasons and they have no idea where their minor leaguers go.)

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Sep 17, 2009 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

He had the exact kind of at bat I remember from his STL days

a ton of annoying foul balls and eventually making an out. It runs up the pitch count and is fun when he’s on your side, but that stuff used to annoy the shit out of me. Aaron Miles used to do that too, but now he just gets his 4-3 groundout over with without wasting pitches.

Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.

by nji232 on Sep 17, 2009 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

Efficiency, thy name is Miles

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on Sep 17, 2009 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Put me down as NO on Harden for 2010

Too inconsistent and fragile. Yes, he might put it together someday but I’d bet against it. Unless he would be really cheap, I say NO.

by rlpete on Sep 17, 2009 8:22 AM CDT reply actions  

Not to mention that his primary weapon is failing him

This is a guy who can supposedly bring the heat, but his fastball speeds have been in decline all year. When you don’t have movement or speed, you’re gonna get knocked all over the ballpark. Put me in the “No on Harden in 2010” camp, as well.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on Sep 17, 2009 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agree, offer arb and get the pick when he signs elsewhere.

Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton

by KaliCub on Sep 17, 2009 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

Fukudome is hot...

7 for 55 in Sept. Keep trotting him out there Lou!!

by EamuCanoli on Sep 17, 2009 8:24 AM CDT reply actions  

It is either him or Taguchi

With Fuld out who else can play CF ?

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Sep 17, 2009 8:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

At this point, maybe Lou SHOULD start Taguchi today.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Sep 17, 2009 8:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

Really, why not?

Dome misjudged the ball over his head (I realize Len & Bob were very kind about how the scoreboard altered the winds) and has fallen into a hole at the plate. Taguchi has paid his dues in AAA this year, why not give him a try?

if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand

by N Oakley on Sep 17, 2009 8:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

Because he had a .680 OPS in Iowa?

"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin

by davidalanu on Sep 17, 2009 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

So this is what the season has slipped to...

Rewarding 39 year old veterans for sticking around all season in AAA.

by rlpete on Sep 17, 2009 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ok but please no Scales or Hoff in CF

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Sep 17, 2009 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hoff in CF would be a bigger white flag...

..than trading Carlos Zambrano.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Sep 17, 2009 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

But think of the entertainment value!

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on Sep 17, 2009 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

Fox in center might be more amusing.

"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin

by davidalanu on Sep 17, 2009 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

With Fox, he'd do what he's done at every defensive position.

Play it poorly, but better than I expected.

if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand

by N Oakley on Sep 17, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

Only if Marshall is playing left.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 17, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

Silly, Marshall isn't allowed to play anymore.

if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand

by N Oakley on Sep 17, 2009 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

I wonder if by Monday

we’ll be talking about maybe catching St. Louis instead of Colorado. They both seem equally difficult to do right now. Obviously, to have any chance in hell at that we’d have to sweep them… (Smoltz, Carpenter, Wainwright… tall order).

I don't care how long you've been around, you'll never see it all.

by Dou on Sep 17, 2009 8:27 AM CDT reply actions  

Patton

Is Patton really an affect of a ham-strung payroll?

Really now, would he even have been kept in the organization if Hendry were able to go out and spend even a little more money? Not talking a $5M a year reliever but at least something more than a rule 5 guy. Gees.

I’m not necessarily advocating opening of the proverbial bank vault either. But this years team is a clear indication that even though they spent like drunken sailors the previous 2 off seasons, they couldn’t this time around and it cost them, figuratively and literally.

Just win the next game...!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 17, 2009 8:29 AM CDT reply actions  

It cost them figuratively...

but not literally. :)

I don't care how long you've been around, you'll never see it all.

by Dou on Sep 17, 2009 8:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

No.

Hendry took Patton on the word of his scouts. He knew Lou wouldn’t use the last man in the ‘pen very often anyway. Now we can put Patton back in the minors and see if he develops. I’d take another Rule V reliever again next year so long as we’re having a 12 man pitching staff.

Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.

by DGU on Sep 17, 2009 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Perhaps

We need new scouts

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on Sep 17, 2009 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well, you look at a guy like Kyler Burke

who the Cubs’ minor league scouts plucked from SD, and it took him some time to turn it around, but now he has. I think it’s worth giving Patton some time.

Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.

by DGU on Sep 17, 2009 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

We get credit for Burke, but he was certainly highly-regarded.

It’s not as if we saw something great during his time with the Padres’ rookie ball team – Burke was a 1st round pick the year prior, who had a terrible season in rookie ball as an 18-year-old.

However, he was still an 19-year-old 1st rounder, our system is/was largely bereft of legit position player prospects, and we were only trading them Michael Barrett, who we had finally determined was completely incapable of playing catcher at a MLB level and who had just gotten into an actual fistfight with Z.

Also, while I’ve probably been the biggest Kyler Burke fan on this board, let’s not start shampooing each other’s dogs just yet about Burke’s awesome 2009. As Josh has noted, Burke needs to hit A+ and AA on the first try if he wants to stay on the prospect track.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Sep 17, 2009 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

+1

“shampooing each other’s dogs”?

I am awed by the horrible beauty of this phrase.

"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill

by vonde6 on Sep 17, 2009 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yowza, I wasn't assuming a win, but

I did expect a decent effort out of Harden. On the plus side, he’s reducing his value if it gets to arbitration.

Conversely, I was really hoping for draft picks and each start he sucks reduces the chances he’ll pull a deal as big as he and his agent probably want that gets the Cubs the picks.

if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand

by N Oakley on Sep 17, 2009 8:35 AM CDT reply actions  

I should add, this team is playing whack-a-mole with my emotions.

They lose a game or two and I reach peace with my expectations and hopes, they rip off a few wins and create a few what-if scenarios and I suck back in and poke my head out of the hole, then they lay an egg again and I feel clubbed over the head.

If Hendry signs another big ticket RF to hit 5th, he should be forced into a cage match with Matt Millen and Jerry Angelo to discuss Wide Receivers and O-Lineman. Even Millen and Angelo can see Hendry’s inability to identify value from a LH power hitter.

if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand

by N Oakley on Sep 17, 2009 8:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

"Whack-a-mole"...haha

good way to put it.

Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton

by KaliCub on Sep 17, 2009 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Don't let your expectations get that high

Awhile ago, I reset my Cubs 2009 goal to a winning season, and for an unlikely super-bonus goal, to win those last three games at St. Louis to finish .500 with them, too.

I know this is obvious, but for your long-term survival as a Cubs fan — lower expectations, support the players, and press the management for improvement.

"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill

by vonde6 on Sep 17, 2009 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

So, how many Cubs are playing through injuries that are affecting their performance?

After the Soriano saga, it’s the question you have to ask. Harden’s performance is way down. Bradley’s performance is down. Soto’s performance was down.

And who’s making these decisions? Is Lou telling the guys to gut it out? Is the training staff incompetent? Is Hendry forcing the players out there?

Sure, this is a case based on speculation, but the questions have to be asked. When healthy Rich Harden is a dominating pitcher and Milton Bradley is a dominating hitter. How many Cubs are playing that shouldn’t be?

Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.

by DGU on Sep 17, 2009 8:40 AM CDT reply actions  

If Harden were hurt...

… wouldn’t he be bad every start? Instead, he’s been inconsistent.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Sep 17, 2009 8:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Really, I haven't gone back to compare, but

other than Harden appearing balanced and not beating up people in the dugout, his starts feel a lot like Z’s.

Either seem to be elite and efficient on pitch count labor on pitch count early which leads to a brutal early inning.

if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand

by N Oakley on Sep 17, 2009 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

Depends on the hurt.

Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.

by DGU on Sep 17, 2009 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think Harden's arm just can't take being in a rotation for very long

It isn’t strong enough, never will be.

Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.

by nji232 on Sep 17, 2009 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

Have to ask

but all teams have this issue.

On Bradley, IMO it’s 95% in his head. If he’d quit worrying about how next he’s gonna be the victim and concentrate on playing, he’d be much better off. Like mentioned before, he’s a lightning rod for controversy.

Soto I truly believe it’s a mix of the weight issue, WBC, pot incident and sophomore slump. One thing for sure IMO on him; it’s not his attitude. I like his attitude and think he’ll return to a better performance level in 2010.

I can’t explain why Harden is better at night and on the road. But he just didn’t have the command. I’m still not sold on him but don’t want to see him cut loose yet. He has 3 more starts.

I think guys are gutting it out. Lou probably pushes too. Can’t say Hendry does also. I also don’t believe the training staff is incompetent. In Sori’s case I believe “he almost always gets what he wants”. Unfortunately that puts him in Slammin’ Sammy territory.

Just win the next game...!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 17, 2009 8:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm growing more excited about Soto

And if he can lock down the 5th spot, that solves a lot of problems.

A 1-7 of Dome-Bradley-Lee-Ramirez-Soto-Soriano-Theriot/Baker would look pretty good.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Sep 17, 2009 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

Can a RH hitter lock down the 5th spot?

But I like your lineup.

Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.

by DGU on Sep 17, 2009 8:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's the key question.

I don’t see a lefty bat in that lineup outside of Milton (assuming a RHP) and it doesn’t seem like Lou will give on this point.

In any case, I’m very happy to see Geo having success at the plate after all the guff he’s taken this season.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Sep 17, 2009 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

Who cares if Lou will "give"?

Lou doesn’t sign the players. He manages the players that are signed.

Hopefully Hendry will have the good sense to see that Lou’s desires don’t always result in improvement on the field. Give him the best guys you can, and tell him to make due.

Follow me on twitter @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Sep 17, 2009 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

dome and bradley

"It doesn't matter what country someone's from, or what they look like, or the color of their skin. It doesn't matter what they smell like, or that they spell words slightly differently some would say more correctly. I'm a person. Bret's a person. You're a person. That person over there is a person. And each person deserves to be treated like a person. "

by Rhymenocerous on Sep 17, 2009 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

the 'guff'?

I think any criticism is deserved. Soto, until the past few weeks, has been terrible!

by elgato on Sep 17, 2009 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

Indeed

And his multiple brain cramps last night weren’t so great, either.

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Sep 17, 2009 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

for what it's worth ...

I like Geo — and of the struggling Cubs this year, I think he has the most potential to rebound. But he’s had an extremely disappointing season that’s worthy of criticism.

by elgato on Sep 17, 2009 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

I like him too, but

He’s done that crap before with the mask and it’s not the first time he’s lacked situational awareness on the field.

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Sep 17, 2009 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

I've said it 1,000 times before and I'll say it again

Cubs minor league prospects who get to the majors have the amazing ability to have no clue about fundamentals. Can’t bunt, run the bases, or know the rules. From Corey Patterson to Ryan Theriot to Geo they just don’t get it and that comes from piss poor teaching in the minors.

Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.

by nji232 on Sep 17, 2009 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Theriot seems pretty fundamentally sound to me

But generally, I wish Cubs’ farmhands were taught plate discipline.

by elgato on Sep 17, 2009 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

Really?

How about his baserunning, poor footwork, inability to execute a tag play properly, lack of bunting skills . . . .

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Sep 17, 2009 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

He gets a pass on the other stuff?

;-)

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Sep 17, 2009 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

You're 100% correct

And what bugs the piss out of me is that there’s no organizational change likely to fix it.

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Sep 17, 2009 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

*organizational change likely on the horizon

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Sep 17, 2009 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

If there is an indictment of Hendry, that is it. (besides Miles)

No overall organizational philosophy of teaching of fundamentals.

Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton

by KaliCub on Sep 17, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, it's been disappointing.

But, as mentioned, he’s been injured (twice) and had his playing time cut. Now that he’s playing more regularly – low and behold- he’s producing.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Sep 17, 2009 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hell, you could have something like that now if Fox would play for Soriano.

Sure, Bradley is struggling mightily, but the 2-hole is where he’s been best this season.

I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg

by Bill Potter on Sep 17, 2009 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

Soriano will be here next year

Learn to love it

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Sep 17, 2009 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

Oh, I know that.

I was thinking over the next 15 games or so the Cubs could trot out that lineup.

I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg

by Bill Potter on Sep 17, 2009 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

I guess I don't want Soto to lock down the 5th spot.

With the combination of weight and WBC test, I’ve speculated he felt too much pressure. I’d rather see that he’s proven he’s somewhere between 2008 and 2009 and a solid answer for a few years.

if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand

by N Oakley on Sep 17, 2009 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

Eh, I still think both the weight and WBC factors were overblown.

Geo’s season has been cut apart by two injuries: The shoulder fatigure early on and the oblique pull midway through. Toss in some BABIP troubles and possibly ending up in the doorway of Lou’s doghouse and he’s just had a sort of nonstarter of a season (ha, no pun intended).

By the way, I’m surprised no one here has mentioned Soto’s bizarre error last night.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Sep 17, 2009 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Geo's done that a few times this season

Got away with it about two weeks ago I think, Brenley called him out on it then. That is a habit that Geo needs to drop quicker than his weed one.

Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.

by nji232 on Sep 17, 2009 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

And also...

… someone needs to tell him he doesn’t have to tag a runner at the plate when the bases are loaded.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Sep 17, 2009 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ron Santo was mad about that.

He was visibly audibly upset with Geo after that play.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Sep 17, 2009 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

Probably visibly, too.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Sep 17, 2009 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

There is another weed joke here

but I won’t say it.

Really that is just another wonderful example of how Cubs minor league players are so aware of the rules and fundamentals of baseball. Truly they teach it all down there. /sarcasm

Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.

by nji232 on Sep 17, 2009 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

In his defense

It looked as though he had one foot in the vicinity of the plate when the throw came in, but wanted to make sure he got the out. Not saying he played that perfectly, but when most of the balls you see for put-outs are on timing plays, rather than force plays, you can sometimes have a brainfart.

Corralling the ball with his mask is still inexcusable, though.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on Sep 17, 2009 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

Good point.

I was listening on the radio so I had no visual to refer to. Of course, ahem, Ron doesn’t have the same excuse.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Sep 17, 2009 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't care which spot he locks down, really

as long as he gets back to 2008 levels and helps the Cubs win.

I can see him anywhere between 4th and 7th, inclusive.

Just win the next game...!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 17, 2009 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

Potty humor.

My husband ran down to the bathroom in the 5th. Judd was doing his best Howdy Dowdy laughing impression and saying some mumbo jumbo about not knowing why Bradley was taken out of the game yet. He said all the guys in there bust out laughing with some shouting “because he’s hitting 250 you moron.” He said it was pretty funny and that he never heard quite an uproar like it in the men’s room before.

"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Sep 17, 2009 8:45 AM CDT reply actions  

Run In With DeRo

I was on a flight with DeRosa last night. He was heading home to Atlanta to spend an off day with his pregnant wife. He was kind and patient enough to let me pepper him with questions for about 20 minutes as we waited for our plane. He could not have been nicer or more down to earth. Really great guy.

Said he loved his experience in Chicago and was sad to leave. His best friends on the team were Demp and Lilly. He did not seem to care much (at all) for Z. Lazy and stubborn, he said. A great talent, but no work ethic. His tone seemed to suggest that Z was somewhat of a clubhouse cancer.

He shook his head and actually started laughing when I suggested the Cubs could still catch the Cards.

Really wish he were still a Cub. Think we’d be in a different place.

by STLCubby on Sep 17, 2009 9:08 AM CDT via mobile reply actions  

I'd have laughed at you too

and then spat in your coffee

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Sep 17, 2009 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

Wow, interesting perspective on Z.

Let’s hope Carlos doesn’t read this or DeRo could be taking one in the ribcage during the St. Louis series (uh, assuming Z pitches).

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Sep 17, 2009 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Z would pitch Sunday

he went Tue so Wed, Thur, Fri & Sat are the other 4 starters.

Should be interesting if Z were to find out about this. But I have a feeling DeRo wouldn’t be the 1st nor would he be the last ex-teammate to intimate Z is lazy and/or stubborn.

Just win the next game...!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 17, 2009 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

This doesn't necessarily prove anything

But when the ancedotal evidence was there a long time ago, and a handful of posters noted it, we got ripped on. (I’m not saying Dave did it.)

My point isn’t to say, “I told you so”, it’s a shout out to those who blindly defend a Cub just because he’s a Cub and consider every criticism a personal attack — sometimes emprical evidence is indeed correct. Zambrano most likely is: very talented, very passionate and VERY immature.

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Sep 17, 2009 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

Really wish he were still a Cub. Think we’d be in a different place.

7 games back instead of 9?

Felonius Monk - bitching to contact since 2008

by Felonius_Monk on Sep 17, 2009 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

I was thinking maybe 5.5

I believe you underestimate his impact on last year’s success (regular season, of course).

by STLCubby on Sep 17, 2009 12:32 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

For those of you that didn't watch the game on TV...

…what the hell was wrong with Richard Dreyfuss?! Seriously, is there something wrong with that guy? Was he drunk?

"Pounding sand since 1982...."

by cubswynn on Sep 17, 2009 9:11 AM CDT reply actions  

Maybe he's not healthy.

I was surprised to learn he’s not quite 62. Thought he was much older.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Sep 17, 2009 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Poor Len.

That must have been really awkward. What was the “America today” rant about? I don’t think he was joking there.

"Pounding sand since 1982...."

by cubswynn on Sep 17, 2009 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Guess so. Didn't see Len ask Dreyfus to stay around and sign his

“A” list autograph ball like he did fawning over Drew Barrymore the night before.

if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand

by N Oakley on Sep 17, 2009 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Dreyfus didn't give Len a chubby like Drew did...

"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)

Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...

by Zeke on Sep 17, 2009 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

Can rip Len on the Drew Barrymore part

for whatever reason, she’s always been in my top-10 celebrity/famous women.

Just win the next game...!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 17, 2009 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

Len definitely loved

Drew. I like her and thought she did a nice job.

Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT

by sue369 on Sep 17, 2009 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Harden

Prior to the season I was in the camp of picking up his option and then dealing him. At this point I think they have to let him walk. Offer him arbitration… someone will offer him a long term deal. I think that the major step that the Cubs took in 2007 and 2008 revolved around having starting pitchers who went to the mound every fifth day and threw with some degree of consistency. One of the things that I had hoped that we had learned from the Wood and Prior era was that when these guys aren’t going to the mound or are starting but lasting 3 or 4 innings that it has a major trickle-down on the rest of the team. Harden is out of that book and we say this in a year where he remained relatively healthy.

by dmlichte on Sep 17, 2009 9:28 AM CDT reply actions  

Prior and Wood usually lasted longer than four innings

It was a matter of them not being able to pitch at all for a lot of the time.

by elgato on Sep 17, 2009 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

When Woody was out early

I’ve seen him at triple digits in the 4th inning a couple times.

Last night Harden just didn’t seem to have it. I’d rather see what he can do his last 3 starts before writing him off for 2010.

Just win the next game...!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 17, 2009 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

Sure ...

But that’s not uncommon for strikeout pitchers. I guess I’m saying that if the Cubs learned lessons from Wood and Prior, those lessons were about durability.

by elgato on Sep 17, 2009 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

But their cases in 2003 were abuse

IIRC Wood and Prior not only threw the most pitches in all of MLB that season, they also had the highest number of pitches per inning.

Granted some of that came from the 12 playoff games but most came from leaving them in too long later in the game. Case in point Prior at 120-ish pitches in NLCS game 2 with the Cubs up by a touchdown and a field goal.

Just win the next game...!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 17, 2009 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

I truly don't think that anyone will offer him more than a one-year deal witha vesting option

or a two-year deal with a boatload of incentives.

"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin

by davidalanu on Sep 17, 2009 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hendry gave Miles a two-year deal...

just sayin’

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 17, 2009 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

And Harden's probably a better hitter.

if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand

by N Oakley on Sep 17, 2009 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Offering arbitration to Harden becomes a greater risk with each start

How could another team watch him pitch and want him on their team? He can’t pitch effectively more than 20 starts a season- and that is pushing it- and forces you to move around rotation guys so he can get more rest.

I’ll bet he accepts arbitration if offered.

Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.

by nji232 on Sep 17, 2009 9:30 AM CDT reply actions  

I'll bet he doesn't.

The pitching market is slim. He’ll get a deal longer than 1 year. And if he accepts, we’ve got a bargain.

Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.

by DGU on Sep 17, 2009 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

I hope you're right

I just don’t see many teams shelling out money after seeing Harden’s inability to pitch many innings before breaking down.

Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.

by nji232 on Sep 17, 2009 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

But Harden also posted a 2.00 ERA the season before.

People will always pay for that kind of upside. On a one-year deal, the Cubs should be glad to.

Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.

by DGU on Sep 17, 2009 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree, but I think any team that takes Harden

has to be prepared to but him on the DL a ton. More than the Cubs have. It seems like after about 10 starts or so in a row his arm dies.

I understand the value you get from having Harden give you 125 IP a season, and the Cubs are one of the teams with enough pitching to get away with it. How many other teams (granted I’m not taking into account stupid teams giving out stupid contracts which makes my whole argument pointless) can afford to have a starting pitcher who can only pitch 60% of the time?

Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.

by nji232 on Sep 17, 2009 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

DGU is right in saying he will get a nice deal somewhere

Teams are stupid, especially when it comes to talented starting pitchers. I just don’t understand why any team would be willing to give him a two year deal.

Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.

by nji232 on Sep 17, 2009 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

Because at least 2 years will be needed to sign him. If he's only looking at

a 1 year deal, he may consider just accepting arb and bothering to change teams.

if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand

by N Oakley on Sep 17, 2009 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe a little hyperbole.

He started 26 games, the team is 13-13 in those starts and he left in or before the 5th in 11 games. Of those 11, the team came back to win 4. Start put team in deficit as team scored 2 or more runs in all 11 of those games.

13 games of 6+ IP, less than 2 ER is half.

Team is 13-13 when he starts, era of 4.09, whip of 1.34.

Harden can be great, he hasn’t been consistently this year.

if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand

by N Oakley on Sep 18, 2009 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

And if the economics are so bad

That he actually falls back to arbitration, it seems like the arbitrators should not be handing out huge awards, either.

It would be easy enough to talk down his value in an arbitration case — I know that the Cubs don’t like to do this, and it can be counter-productive, but I am just saying that I think that the worst-case scenario here (you don’t really want him that much, but he accepts arbitration) is not too bad.

"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill

by vonde6 on Sep 17, 2009 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

You can try but you won't save much

How about the Zimbabwean currency ? I think inflation is like a million percent ( seriously) so offer him 20 million and
by the time the bill is due it is $20/

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Sep 17, 2009 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'd risk it, if he takes it we're only on the hook for one year.

"He can't hit, he can't field, he can't run—all he can do is beat you."

by Itchy on Sep 17, 2009 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hello new info

Harden shut down for remainder of season

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on Sep 17, 2009 11:45 AM CDT reply actions  

Also, Preview thread is up

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on Sep 17, 2009 11:47 AM CDT reply actions  

I like this one. Where has it been all season?

"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)

Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...

by Zeke on Sep 17, 2009 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

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